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Have Open World games reached their limit?
342 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Satsunami and Adam ask the age old question: have open world games reached their limit? Has the fatigue of linear games worn off? And how do open world games content within the modern landscape of gaming? All this and more in the latest episode of Chatsunami!
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Transcript
Introduction to Open-World Discussion
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. I'm Satsunami and joining me in this open world of a discussion is my very good friend Adam. Adam, welcome back. Hang on a second, I just gotta climb this radio tower so I can scope out the landscape, so back in a second. What? I can't hear you up there. What?
00:00:39
Speaker
Hello, hello, good to be back. Yeah, how are you doing today, Adam? I'm not doing too bad, thanks. Not too bad, thanks. Shoulders are a bit fatigued from, as I said, all this climbing. Apart from that, all good. To be honest, I'm actually surprised you didn't say that it's because you've been carrying the research for this episode.
00:00:56
Speaker
You know, I'm prone to a bit of exaggeration, but not outright lying. Not yet, anyway. Oh, give it time, now I'm looking. Do another year. No, you have been thoroughly researching this topic, and of course you may be wondering at home, what topic are we talking about?
Have Open-World Games Reached Their Limit?
00:01:12
Speaker
That of course being the age-old question, have open-model games reached their limit?
00:01:18
Speaker
Are we tired of them? Are we? I think you'd put it this way before we went to record. Have they reached their level of fatigue? Yeah, it is kind of weird because I remember a time where open-world games were absolutely revolutionary. And don't get me wrong, I think the concept of open-world games have predated even ourselves as old fossils. Yeah, it is strange to think though that people are getting tired of it, isn't it?
00:01:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah, definitely, because I can still remember a time when, you know, that was a thing that people really wanted. And I remember myself really wanting, like, more freedom. You know, I wish I could just explore. I want to break out of the confines of these kind of levels that I'm playing and get into much more open space. And as you say, now to think quarter stage or like, oh, man, put me back in the cage. I hate this free range lifestyle.
First Open-World Game Experiences
00:02:08
Speaker
You know it is weird because I always remember playing games like Call of Duty and I mean Baby Halo to an extent, you know those kind of games where it was a set story you went from point A to point B and people complained about that because although they loved the games they were like oh we want an open world, in fact I think games like Pokemon even have that to this day, they want an open world MMO kind of experience and it's never gonna happen
00:02:37
Speaker
but let's let them dream because I don't want them angrily banging my door tonight.
00:02:43
Speaker
take their hook away. It's all they have, damn it, okay? It's all they have. But yeah, I remember that when I was younger listening to these kind of opinions thinking, yeah, I want an open world experience. And even when I got into my first open world experience, this is something we talked about before we came on the show. I was trying to remember, and so were you, but we were trying to remember our first experience with an open world game. I'm going to be honest, I cannot remember. I think
00:03:11
Speaker
it must have been. Maybe Simpson's out and run? I mean, is that an open world game? I mean, I would consider an open world game. I mean, it's by today's standards, you would argue, you can argue that the open world is quite paltry, you know, in size. And I know there's, it's not one contiguous, you know, open world that is divided up, but I would view it as, at least, you know, if we're, if we judge linear, if we're looking at kind of linear and open world, if you look at it as a scale, I think it's much more towards the open world end of the scale than, you know, the strict linear side.
00:03:41
Speaker
But turning it back on you though, like what would you say your first open model game was?
00:03:46
Speaker
You know what? It could well be Simpsons Hit and Run. It's either that game or Shenmue 2. Now, Shenmue 2 came out the year before Simpsons Hit and Run, but I can't remember when I played Shenmue 2. I think I might have played it around the same time as Simpsons Hit and Run, so one of those two. I mean, I played some GTAs at friend's houses, but I never owned a copy of GTA until much later, so I only sampled the open world.
00:04:13
Speaker
there. I think it was Shenmue too or Simpson-Sittin' Run was my first proper taste, you know, proper dive into the open world
Classifying Games: Open-World vs. Linear
00:04:19
Speaker
genre. Do you know I was the absolute same because my parents wouldn't let me get GTA when I was younger so there was lots of, I don't want to say bad apples because that makes me sound like an old man, but you know like these kids who got a copy of like San Andreas, Vice City, they would play the game and then I would just like watch and maybe I would play a little bit but
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, I never really got that kind of first-hand perspective, if that makes sense. It's just weird, because even before we came on, when we were discussing, you know, about the open-world games we've actually played and things like that,
00:04:57
Speaker
And then we kind of got thinking, because I started bombarding you with questions. I was like, you know that meme with the anime man pointing to the butterfly? And he's like, I think this is this a pigeon, but instead it's just me pointing to like Bioshock saying like, is this an open world game?
00:05:13
Speaker
Yeah I had a bit of an existential crisis for that though. It's honestly sucked, it's actually much more of a vexing issue than it appears at first because when you say you're like oh yeah I can tell a linear game from an open world game, like what am I some kind of noob? Like this isn't my first rodeo. Then you look at it and you're like is that a linear game?
00:05:31
Speaker
is this open world? What do these terms mean anymore? I don't know if you've ever seen the betweeners, but there's an episode where one of the main characters studying for an exam, he's like, I've been looking at this page for so long, he's like, is this a word? I'm just like, are these words now? So it's a much more taxing issue, I think, to try and unpack and to try and sort into neat little categories.
00:05:52
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely, because that's how I felt when I was talking to you about Sonic Adventure, because technically you have like a hub world in that game, and then I was like, does that count as open world? And I'm like, well no, because the levels are like really linear, but you've still got the hub world in between, so it's kind of that parketry between open world and linear games, you're kind of like,
00:06:15
Speaker
what do we even call this? What are you? It is quite an interesting discussion but here's a question see before we get into like the meat of this episode when would you say the fatigue for open model games finally struck?
Open-World Fatigue and Ubisoft's Impact
00:06:30
Speaker
I think the kind of mid to late 2010s, I think is when it really hit. And I think it was when, because that was a time where a lot of open world games, a lot of triple A open world games seem to be coming out like basically on top of each other. So, you know, you'd get a lot released in a year and roughly about the same time of the year as well. And I think as well, not to single out.
00:06:52
Speaker
like one company but but I am going to single out one company here. I think it was when the Ubisoft model of open world games became fixed you know and formalized it to what it is now and I think when it was that kind of when it became that sort of formalized version of a game of an open world game and then there were so many of them being released I think that's when people started to become quite fatigued with them.
00:07:12
Speaker
You mean like your Far Cry's and your Watch Dogs and things like that? The visions, Assassin's Creed, you know, the list goes on, but yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't know though, because on the other hand, you have to look at companies like Rockstar as well. Don't get me wrong, they have kind of revolutionised it in a way, but nowadays it kind of seems very old-tack. Because when you think of open world games, other than Minecraft obviously, which came out in what, 2011 I think?
00:07:42
Speaker
yeah, like the Super Mario 64 argument, isn't it? Oh, think of the impact GTA had, but it really did, because it was like a, well, depending on what game you go to, but it was relatively like a big, large-scale environment and everything, and you could go through it. But I think by about 2012, 2013, I think that those were the kind of times where games like GTA 5 and Skyrim and
00:08:12
Speaker
maybe Fallout if you want to, you know, I know that was technically before and after with 3 and 4 but those kind of series were coming out at that time and everyone was excited but I mean, say after that, can you think of many other than Red Dead Redemption 2 for example but can you think of many open world games that hit its stride as much as like GTA 5 or Skyrim?
00:08:38
Speaker
Oh, it's a good question. Certainly people still enjoyed... Well, Arkham City was around that same time as well, and that was obviously very popular, and that kind of... As much as Arkham Asylum had some sort of open-worldy, Arkham City was much more of an open-world environment.
00:08:54
Speaker
Assassin's Creed Black Flag was in 2013. That was, some people might argue, the last, like, great Assassin's... Oh, I get a very personal opinion, but that was the last great Assassin's Creed. There was Middler's Shadow of Mordor, like, that was well received, and people really enjoyed that as well with Open World. So, the Just Cause series is one. I think Just Cause 3 was 2015, and that was one that people really liked. And that was much more of a kind of sandbox-y Open World, you know, where you could have a big impact on the environment.
00:09:23
Speaker
you know, much more than you can in a game like Skyrim or Assassin's Creed or Fallout or something like that, you know. There were still games, Rockstar obviously the ones, you know, I think are perhaps the most synonymous. Well, probably Rockstar and Bethesda are probably the two you think of more positively. I mean, I know Bethesda had faced some criticism from some of their recent efforts, but those two companies are probably the ones you most associate the best with kind of open world experiences. There is one you're forgetting though, and I know why you're forgetting that. The Witcher 3.
00:09:50
Speaker
Oh, of course.
Main Discussion on Open-World Game Fatigue
00:09:52
Speaker
God. You can tell I've not played that one. You're completely right, the one that everybody holds up as the greatest game ever, so my bad. I wouldn't blame you because after The Witcher 3, like what came next, you know, there was like the DLC and everything which came after, and you know, everybody loved that. Then there was Cyberpunk on the note of segwaying awkwardly into the main discussion. Will we just jump into it? I mean, I can think of no better way, so let's go.
00:10:19
Speaker
Okie doke, so yeah, we will go away and climb this radio tower and we'll be right back after these transmissions. Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that talks about topics from gaming and films to streaming in general interest. Previously on Chatsunami, we discussed Game of the Decade, Deadly Premonition, the romantic thriller, Birdemic and listen to us get all sappy as we discuss our top five Christmas films.
00:10:46
Speaker
If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can find us an anchor, Spotify, YouTube and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:59
Speaker
We are Beer and Chill Podcast. Podcast where we review TV shows, games, movies, and whatever else takes our fancy. So what are you waiting for? If you're a cool kid like us, you're gonna listen to the Beer and Chill Podcast. You can get it anywhere from Spotify all the way to your grandmother's radio. My name is Jan. And I'm Cricky C. And we are Beer and Chill.
00:11:35
Speaker
Oh god, that is a lot of steps. Oh, we're back. So, Adam, I'm going to turn it back on to you because you, of course, alongside me, we are both history buffs, as it were. That's not a humble brag, by the way, but we do like a bit of history, don't we? We like a little smattering here and there. Or a great big dollop in my face.
00:11:59
Speaker
there's nothing wrong with that. What you guys don't know is the list for Chatsunami recommended episodes is just nothing but history episodes. Be warned, that will be coming soon probably. We are like the Bill Nyes of history games. I couldn't think of anybody else off the top of my head. Or the Citizen Kane of history games. I wish I had said that now.
00:12:23
Speaker
So Adam, what is the history behind these open model games?
Evolution of Open-World Games
00:12:28
Speaker
Because I know you were doing a lot of research into this particular topic, but would you say the open model games kind of became more prominent in the modern era of gaming as opposed to back in the day where we had very much a linear scene
00:12:44
Speaker
To an extent yes, but what was surprising was actually the history of open world games and how far you can actually date them back. A lot of this is semantics in a way because a lot of these games from the 70s and 80s
00:13:02
Speaker
don't if you were to compare them to an open world game now they don't really look they're not kind of alike in that way but they still are you know they still are on that kind of open world spectrum so i mean we were talking about this before we started but if you think about things like text adventures you know from the kind of late 70s early 80s even beyond that like they
00:13:20
Speaker
have a certain open world element to them in that you have a kind of freedom, you have a freedom of exploration, you have choices of where to go, it's not, you're not always getting funneled down a specific way. So you can kind of look at those as almost a kind of progenitors. You had games, you had a lot of kind of early role playing games in the early 80s, things like Ultima, which were kind of D&D inspired, but kind of put you in a much more open world and gave you some freedom to choose, you know, to kind of plot your own adventure.
00:13:46
Speaker
I mean, if you then go to like the late 80s, we start seeing Nintendo started to kind of dip their feet into the open world environment. The first Legend of Zelda is very much an open world and that you're kind of plonked into the map of Hyrule and you have these different dungeons that you need to, you know, you need to complete to progress the game. But you can, there is a certain freedom to, you know, tackle those in an order that you want. I mean, you can only do it to certain things because sometimes you need specific items.
00:14:10
Speaker
specific dungeons but there is a level much more freedom than in something like Mario for instance. The same year we had the first Metroid game that was again very much open world again with these kind of Metroidvanias it's that way in that you know you open up the map as you get more skills and abilities and everything but the first Metroid game I think is a particular note word for having like a
00:14:28
Speaker
for maybe being too open in a sense and having too much open at the beginning. But that's another one. I think famed game developer Sid Myers made some games that kind of in the open world mold that his Pirates one, I, from what I understand, is a bit kind of sandboxy. And then as you get into the kind of 90s, you obviously have things like Grand Theft Auto starting. And even those kind of first, you know, before we get to the 3D Grand Theft Auto, those kind of 2D top down versions, there was an open world, you know, where you were given freedom to kind of go around and do different tasks.
00:14:56
Speaker
Super Mario 64, you know, you can argue to an extent has an open world. I mean, it's more of a kind of hub world, but the levels inside Super Mario are open to an extent. You're given a chance to kind of move around and explore them and everything. And then, you know, obviously as GTA's went into the kind of 3D environments, it got much bigger. We got things like the Shenmue series, you know, Simpsons hit and run, as we said. The Elder Scrolls games obviously started a bit earlier, but became much more open world, especially things like
00:15:22
Speaker
Morrowind and obviously Oblivion. We've got the Fallout series as well, you know, so it kind of just snowballed into what we have now with things like Far Cry and Assassin's Creed and everything like that. So it is quite a long history, but again, it's that way of with it being a kind of it's not quite an objective thing. It is a bit subjective of what you consider to be an open world until you might look at some things and be like, no, I wouldn't consider that open world, but somebody else might. So it is it is like a fairly long history in gaming of kind of the open world genre. It's just that obviously it's
00:15:49
Speaker
so it's grown in so much in scope and size and also as well in the way these games play and format and everything but you can certainly trace it back, you can trace the open world genre back quite far. It is amazing though, thinking back to when we were growing up and how, I mean you did mention games like
00:16:08
Speaker
Super Mario 64 or even look at games like Banjo-Kazooie, is that open world? Because it's got this huge hub world where you've got secrets within the hub world, but then you've also got the levels as well within that. So does that count? There's probably a lot of angry Banjo-Kazooie fans like, no, it's a platforming experience, you don't understand. By the way, I'm a huge Banjo-Kazooie fan, just want to point that out. But
00:16:35
Speaker
yeah you know games like that were definitely pushing the boundaries for what they could do. And I remember as I said I remember being really young thinking, oh it'd be so cool if you were able to explore like this area or that area and you had to wait like years and years until we got games like that. Because I mean there were so many open world games. I remember when Skyrim came out and initially I wasn't sure
00:17:02
Speaker
sure if I was gonna like it. I think the reason that I probably prefer Skyrim to a game like Fallout was because I played Skyrim first. I absolutely fell head over heels with it, thought wow this is amazing you know, you can customise your character, you can explore this like vast world and everything. You also had games like Red Dead Redemption which again absolutely loved that. I thought the scope, the absolute scale of it was fantastic. Even playing games like
00:17:31
Speaker
GTA 5 for example, that blew my mind in 2013 when I played it and I thought wow this is amazing. Same with Assassin's Creed, the very first one before they went turtle-y but I mean that was great as well and I know I'm kind of repeating myself saying yes great.exe but genuinely those were so refreshing coming from games where you're all like Call of Duty Battlefield Halo where they kept you in like a single track road and even games like Pokémon because Pokémon techniques
00:18:00
Speaker
that's open world, but a lot of RPGs do follow that kind of thing. I think it's more an RPG thing than it is like an open world thing, but you could potentially argue it's open world, but at the same time it didn't have the same scope as these games had. Going forward from that time, like obviously there are the diamonds in the rough, the rough of course being like people can
00:18:23
Speaker
explaining about the sheer volume of open model games, but it is weird to see because as we said before, we have games like Minecraft which to this day still are absolutely popular. And here's a question before I start throwing compliments to this genre.
Why Are Open-World Games Appealing?
00:18:42
Speaker
What is it about open world games that you like Adam? I think a lot of it is that sense of freedom when you get the ability to kind of do sort of you know quote-unquote do anything or go anywhere. There is a very kind of liberating sense there and it can be like it can be like a really great can make you feel great just to have that ability to you know kind of choose and be like no I don't want to do this I want to go over here or I just want to I want to explore and you know find what I can and you know when I think about playing some open world games
00:19:11
Speaker
I think some of my favourite moments in gaming have come from open world games and even from some games that I don't particularly like or that I never finished or I wouldn't go back and play again. So I think about Oblivion, the 4th Elder Scrolls game. It's a game I didn't play that much of and it's a game I probably wouldn't go back and play now to be honest. But I remember after doing the opening segments of Oblivion, after you basically start in a prison and you meet the Emperor and you basically escape
00:19:37
Speaker
and then your quest starts from there. And I remember not long after that just being put into the big world of Cyrodiil and being like, wow. And I was like, okay, right. I'm going to follow the quest mark and head there. But I remember coming across a ruin and just being like, oh, I'm going to go and explore this. And just that sense, I was just like, wow, this just feels awesome in a way you'd never be able to do in a much more restricted
00:20:00
Speaker
game. I think as well, some open world games have made genuinely amazing environments to explore. We can argue how much this is an open world game, but the first Bioshock, I just absolutely loved exploring the ruins of
00:20:15
Speaker
Rapture and just poking around and just finding all these different shops and apartments and public areas and just piecing together what happened in Rapture. And again, we can argue how much of an open world game that is, but you certainly get a large amount of freedom within each environment to explore. Even more recent games, I recently, in the last few months, finished up Metro Exodus.
00:20:36
Speaker
which again is not a totally open world game but you know has several kind of big large open world environments and just being able to kind of plot my way through there and you know finding all these different kind of areas and these ruins and these kind of the inhabitants living there and everything was just so great I was just like just an experience I don't think you can get
00:20:54
Speaker
all the time in a more linear crafted experience. So yeah, I think really the freedom and just the exhilaration that you can get from open worlds and if they can create a really compelling environment, it's just something that I think is a very unique strength to open world and I'm not sure you can quite replicate those with a more linear experience.
00:21:15
Speaker
I definitely think it is the first time you go into the world of that particular game, isn't it? Like, you know, seeing the Northern Lights for the first time in Skyrim, or seeing the sunset in GTA or something. Like, did you feel like that as well? Yeah, I think open worlds can really help you get immersed into whatever, into the environment, into the world, into the story. You know, I think they are very good at doing that. If they're done well, you know, you really do just want to
00:21:42
Speaker
dive in and you really can roleplay and imagine yourself in this place. Usually for these AAA open model games, it's usually a chance for these publishers and developers to showcase not only the power of the console that they're going to be putting it on, but their own technical fortitude to show off their creativity, to show off this game that's going to be
00:22:06
Speaker
fun. I have so many memories of playing games like Red Dead Redemption, the first one, with friends and they're the only reason that I actually bought Red Dead Redemption because they're like oh there's this cool cowboy game we're all gonna buy it and I was like
00:22:24
Speaker
I don't know if I won it, I bought it anyway, got it for my 18th birthday. I absolutely loved it. I remember running from the police in the game while my friend rode like a zebra and I was like in a really slow donkey riding behind him. There was just so many great memories from that. You mentioned as well there's the Arkham series for Batman, especially Arkham City. There was the Elder Scrolls series
00:22:51
Speaker
Also, there's actually, I'm going to come back to it, but Spider-Man as well was a fantastic experience. That really took me by surprise. But I will get to that. I know Green Shield are a very good friend and occasional cool host for the Chatsunami series will be listening to this. Yes, The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild is a good experience. It's OK, Adam. I've said it on your behalf. Is that your official recommend? Is that your official review? It's OK. Yeah, it's a game.
00:23:19
Speaker
Put that on the box. It's a game. Thumbs up. It's a game, guys. Because I feel like people would mention it. People would mention it if we didn't talk about it. Yeah, a few people might bring up that we didn't mention apparently one of the best games ever made. There's also, speaking of best games ever made, there's also Metal Gear Solid 5, The Phantom Pain, Woho indeed.
00:23:39
Speaker
And of course we've got Horizon Zero Dawn, which is another critically acclaimed one. But there's actually one open-world game that you haven't mentioned, and I would argue is quite possibly one of my favourite open-world games. Ooh, a deadly premonition. It is indeed!
00:23:57
Speaker
Because Deadly Premonition, if you go back and listen to our episodes on Deadly Premonition, you'll know that that was one of the games that actually, yeah, brought Adam and I closer together, isn't it? Indeed. In that respect, you could argue it's the best game ever made, just for that fact, to be honest. Absolutely. We wouldn't be here without that game, so thank you, sweaty65, for your mad, mad cat ideas.
00:24:21
Speaker
Yeah, the thing about open world games as well is I think people underestimate the social aspect of it as well and obviously this is more of a relatively new thing, you know, with the development of the internet and the infrastructure
00:24:36
Speaker
there where people can play online together now. Nowadays it's kind of an expected feature, you think, oh, has it got multiplayer? Ah, yes. Now I should go the No Man's Sky route, but yeah, let's not go into that. Yeah, it's just so interesting to see. But yeah, it's
00:24:51
Speaker
just so interesting to see people come together, create all these like amazing memories together, to explore these kind of vast worlds and go into like this deep story as they venture through the land in their own way. It's a really underestimated
00:25:10
Speaker
but I think very important aspect of open-world games. But if that was the case, you know, for every open-world game, then we probably wouldn't be doing this episode. And from what I've seen after researching this topic myself, it seems as if a lot of content creators and gamers feel the same way. So kind of to segue on
00:25:32
Speaker
Maybe the negative aspects of Open Modeled? I'll give the floor back to you Adam, but what would you say the negative kind of role is with Open Modeled games?
Negatives of Open-World Games
00:25:42
Speaker
Again personally for me, I think it's going to be the time investment is one thing. A lot of these games are hefty in terms of content and you know length and sometimes that's good.
00:25:53
Speaker
But a lot of other things going on in your life, you're busy, you don't have as much time to devote to gaming, and the thought sometimes of going into these games is overwhelming, and you're just like, I don't think I can do it. I think as with, again, maybe a more personal
00:26:09
Speaker
depending on
00:26:30
Speaker
can get disjointed and you know like you might go long periods without doing you know kind of story main mission content and so this you know this story kind of comes disjointed like what am I doing again and the stakes get lost you know especially and if you think about I think the most notorious one for this is Fallout 4.
00:26:47
Speaker
me like so with Fallout 4 you know game starts you go into this you go into the bunker with your your husband or your wife and your baby as the nuclear bombs start falling and then at some point in time you're like awoken from your kind of cryo sleep and your partner is killed and
00:27:02
Speaker
your baby is like taken away and you go back and then you wake up another point and then you basically you have to track down your baby and find them so that's your kind of main story however being a Bethesda game you'll get absolutely like laden with side quests and everything else just exploring the world and so the game as much as finding your your child should be your number one priority the game almost discurs you from that so again it kind of feels at odds with the story
00:27:27
Speaker
I think as well, again, and this is more apt to some open world games and others, but it's the kind of, are you like the drudgery and repetition of tasks? You know, we all know how many, like, would you joke about how many towers we have to climb to open the map up? You know, how many bandit camps do you have to, like, liberate chests to find? There's a lot of repetition of tasks.
00:27:46
Speaker
that I think really can weigh you down especially I remember when I was playing Assassin's Creed Unity to the one set in Paris during the French Revolution I remember opening the map for the first time and I could barely see the map through the like the absolute like litter of icons that was strewn all across the map and I just remember being like oh my god
00:28:05
Speaker
How am I ever going to be able to tackle anyone close to all this stuff? So yeah, I think those are the sort of main problems, if you'd say, with open world games. To kind of add on to that, it's something you kind of mentioned with Fallout 4, which is an absolutely fantastic point about the story for open world games. You know, it's the same with even games that I love.
00:28:26
Speaker
the for example deadly premonition or redhead redemption where either you hunt the serial killer or you're working for the government but somehow you still have time to mess about and eat a sinner sandwich or hurt some cows and things, you know. It doesn't work as well story-wise, it's a bit like
00:28:47
Speaker
the Far Cry series because I know their whole thing is oh you're trapped in a desert island or you know a very remote place and you have to like clear out these bandit camps. I know they're probably not bandit camps but you know I mean like these areas that are fortified by enemies and you have to be a war criminal version of Kevin McAllister where you set up all the booby traps and things and blow them up and
00:29:12
Speaker
Again, as you said, find a tower and things and that takes away from kind of the urgency of the story. It's not like, remember Prince of Persia, the old one, when it was like on a time limit? Oh, the end.
00:29:26
Speaker
sounds of time and stuff. Even before that, the original game was very time sensitive. I'm not advocating for a timer or a time limit for these kind of games, but at the same time, narratively, it doesn't work as well. Going back to something you said as well, talking about the
00:29:50
Speaker
content of like the map and things where you see all the icons and things, you probably get a sense of FOMO, you know like a fear of missing out on this content and character interactions and things and I'm not saying like too much content can necessarily be a bad thing but you do get people who they'll go into an open world game and then there's just nothing there and you think well what's the point then?
00:30:16
Speaker
of having a big open world game and having absolutely nothing in it. Because have you ever done that before? Have you ever gone into an open world game and just thought, wow, there's nothing here? Oh, I know, I know exactly what you mean. The example that always brings to mind for me is L.A. Noire, where they had, they made an inaccurate presentation of 1940s Los Angeles, which is a great achievement.
00:30:38
Speaker
and don't get me wrong like it's impressive they did that and you know it's kind of cool to be able to visit some of these old landmarks like the old intolerance set or um the kind of la like public library you know that it's kind of cool to see those but it was a game that really didn't need an open world and you could tell that they put it in there to kind of to pad out the game a bit and also so they could include driving as a kind of central mechanic which you know it's
00:31:01
Speaker
It's okay to an extent, but it did mean a lot of, like, it did kind of break the pace a lot where you're like, oh my God, I've got to travel from this crime scene all the way back to the police station or to the morgue or, you know, to somewhere else, wherever it really kind of broke that up. And there was just nothing. There was a couple of things to find some collectibles and stuff, but there was no fun to really exploring that world. And it felt like going through a kind of, you know, an art gallery, a museum, you know, you're not able to, you just kind of have to stare at the things and you can't really interact with them in a way that you could do with sort of a game like Minecraft or like Just Cause or even like a GTA or something like that.
00:31:31
Speaker
and that actually leads on to the third point that I was gonna make, so thank you for that. The idea of traversal as well within the open world, I feel as if it makes or breaks a game. In games like maybe Skyrim or Red Dead Redemption, you start off walking through, you know, the land and eventually you'll get your horse and everything and that'll speed things up. And then you get games like Spider-Man,
00:31:58
Speaker
the one that came out in 2018 for the PlayStation 4 and I think is actually coming out for the PC which, fun fact, that was absolutely fantastic and the reason wasn't just because they recreated New York for the game, although that was pretty impressive but
00:32:15
Speaker
It was mainly because of how good Spider-Man felt to swing through the city and you were going so fast, you could jump off of rooftops, you could swing. I'm not as well versed in Arkham City, but was it the same experience for that?
00:32:33
Speaker
Oh yeah, I think if you were to poll people, that would probably be one of their favourite things about. Especially Arkham City and Arkham Knight was the really fluid and fast traversal. Batman's glide allowed you to travel long distances really fast. You could glide down and then shoot yourself back up to gain speed and altitude and it was a really, especially Arkham Knight really perfected it and just made it a fantastic traversal system.
00:32:56
Speaker
But you're totally right in that way, like it really, it can add something when you're not having to sort of chudge your way through on like foot or on horseback if you have a kind of cool way to get around. That was the great strength of the Assassin's Creed series when it first started out. I remember how great it was to, as clunky as it probably is now to play, like I've not played the original Assassin's Creed game
00:33:13
Speaker
in over 10 years. I remember playing it the first time and doing the free-running parkour and diving over rooftops and climbing things. It felt great to just kind of dash around this environment. And I think as well, that kind of helps you get away from, you might argue, the scourge of fast travel. It kind of feels like open world games, you reach that point where you're just like, oh, right. I just want to get there. Right. Just, you know, unlock these fast travel points now. Let's use them. And that kind of, you know, you might argue, renders the open world obsolete. Would you say, though, that open-world gamers and nowadays have
00:33:42
Speaker
a problem of surplus. So what I mean by that is there's like too much going on. In the example I always bring up, and I'm probably gonna attract a lot of heat for this, so after this episode I'd rather save yourself, but Red Dead Redemption 2 is always my go-to example compared to the first one. Because I remember, as I said, I remember playing Red Dead Redemption
00:34:05
Speaker
absolutely loving it going through the YWES shooting bandits and things, playing with friends. So when I got the second game I was so excited because I was like oh it's gonna be just like the old days I'm gonna be shooting up bandits and things and I don't know whether it's just the fact I've got older or what it is and don't get me wrong this isn't a slight to the developers who actually sat and coded horse testicles shrinking and
00:34:32
Speaker
the cold. Why that was in the game, I don't know, but the attention to detail is absolutely insane. I can't deny that, and I can't deny the absolute talent that went into creating the game. But would you say there is too much of a good thing when it comes to micromanaging in these
Impact of Repetitive Gameplay on Engagement
00:34:52
Speaker
kinds of games? I think it depends on what you're doing. If there's a lot of things, but there's a lot of variety,
00:34:57
Speaker
I don't think it can be so much of an issue. I mean, I've not played the game, but I know lots of people love The Witcher 3 because of the variety of the side missions and the fact that each feels like a crafted experience rather than a copy and paste type of job. While if you think about a Ubisoft, the Ubisoft model of open world, it feels like you get a checklist of things to do. Get all these chests, clear all these bandit camps, climb all these towers, find all these landmarks, whatever it is.
00:35:25
Speaker
in that sense, when there's a surplus of those kind of repetitive tasks, Fallout 4 was notorious for the Preston Garvey, the Minutemen, I can't remember what the faction was called, but those tasks were like, oh, another settlement needs a meme to death by the end. So when you get that kind of boring repetition of just the same task, it really kind of kills your enthusiasm for it. And it's still what happened to me when the last Assassin's Creed game I played was Odyssey. It's the one set in Ancient Greece, and it's a gorgeous looking
00:35:51
Speaker
game and you know the world of ancient Greece that they've made is great, it looks great, there's like great landmarks to find, there's a lot of fun to explore around it but I just remember being like I'm having fun exploring this but like oh my god what am I doing like I'm just exploring to clear another bandit camp find another chest and it just it just absolutely killed my interest in that game. I found one of those boring things to play despite the kind of beautiful backdrop.
00:36:13
Speaker
that I was going through, you know, the fact that I was having to repeat the same tasks again, absolutely destroyed my enthusiasm for it. So for me, it depends on what you're doing. You know, if there's if there's lots of variety, I don't think it's a bad thing. But I think if it's a lot of the same things, you know, that's what really can kill the kind of open world experience. I think part of the problem, I think, is a kind of trend that developed in gaming, like from the kind of I'd say mostly in the 2010s, maybe the late 2000s, 2010s. And it felt like as games got more expensive,
00:36:42
Speaker
people expected them to last longer, you know, that they would be able to devote more time to them. And it felt in a way that this is kind of where this trend of just repetitive tasks and large environments just kind of exploded. People were like, well, I'm plonking down, you know, 60, 60 quid for a new game, I want to get at least 20 hours out of it. And you know, I can understand that logic, but I do think it did, you know, I do think it did some harm, especially because I do think it just led people to be like, right, here's one bandit camp, right, let's copy and paste this like 100 times now and just like spread it out across this like vast environment.
00:37:12
Speaker
Do you remember a game called Dying Light 2? Yeah, I've not played the other Dying Lights, but I know what you mean. Yeah, me neither. But there was like a really infamous thing going around where they were saying, how it will take 500 hours for you to complete it. And then it turned out, it was like, oh no, it's only 500 hours to complete it 100% or something like that. And it's like, oh, the actual game will take
00:37:37
Speaker
can't even remember, I think it was 70 hours or something, I could be completely wrong. But it does feel weird when people say that a game, or rather they judge a game based on how long the game itself is going to last, because some of the best games I've ever played, and this is making me sound like an indie fanatic, but some of the best games I've ever played, like What Remains of Egypt,
00:38:01
Speaker
Finch, to the moon, you know, kinda to quote recent games that we've been talking about. Those are some of the best games that I have ever played, and they're only about the reverse max maybe? I mean technically what remains of Edith Finch you could speedrun it in 35 minutes, trust me I did look it up, but
00:38:18
Speaker
That is the weird thing though. I just can't believe that you'll get games like that that are so short yet because of the length of them people might kind of scoff and say, oh I don't want to play that because it's too short. But why though? It goes back to something you were saying earlier but like, nowadays I find myself going towards a lot of shorter games and a lot more linear games because you don't get an old. It's tiring.
00:38:47
Speaker
Notice how depressing. I'm reaching the big 3-0 soon and sometimes you just want a game that either you're familiar with or you want a game that you can just play from start to finish and then say that was a great game and then kind of hang it up on the shelf.
00:39:03
Speaker
And that's not to say that everybody my age or our age rather feels that way. There will be people in there who still love GTA, and then there's those very strange streamers who will stream it with all the absolutely crazy mod. Go you! At the same time, I don't know, making a game larger and
00:39:22
Speaker
better just for the sake of it, just for the sake of hours and kind of artificial content if that makes sense, you know, it's not something that seems organic, it's not something you think, oh this is an actual progression, we're gonna get like a lot of content in here, it's just, it's just stuff.
00:39:41
Speaker
really. And that's what really makes me quite sad about it. Gaming is there to kind of push the boundaries, and we see that in a lot of genres, but when it comes to open world games, there is only so much you can do before you start just stuffing things into the game and making it a collector throne. And going back to what I said earlier,
00:40:01
Speaker
I mean, I'm a Banjo-Kazooie fan, I know exactly what that feels like. And I mean, even then, the Banjo-Kazooie spiritual successor, Yooka-Laylee, that was criticised for being like a big open world, but with nothing really in between. I bet like what you were saying about Ellie Noir, it's like, it has to be rewarding. Would you agree that there has to be kind of a reward for exploring, or rather a worthwhile reward?
00:40:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think as well, it kind of comes down to the world that's there, like the environment. You kind of, well, for me personally, I want to get myself immersed in the world, in the environment. So it kind of comes down to how that's created or like having a good reason for being in there. So last year I played Far Cry 3.
00:40:45
Speaker
which is over 10 years old now, but it's one of these games I think also helped to kind of popularize in many ways, both for good and for bad, the sort of Ubisoft model of open world games. But that game gave you a... I don't think the environment's always the best because it's kind of a lot of like...
00:41:00
Speaker
jungle. To be honest it's not like it's kind of difficult to tell sometimes where you are you know without going to like the overworld map but like the game gave you quite a good reason for being there in that you're like this basically bratty like college this American college teen with his like asshole friends
00:41:16
Speaker
like crash land on this island which is basically these pirates and you get your friends get captured and you escape and you basically need to like free your friends and you meet up with this kind of tribe of natives who are on the island and you go on this sort of like heart of darkness almost apocalypse now journey and you know as you as you take copious amounts of like
00:41:35
Speaker
and you turn yourself into a warrior basically so that kind of gave you a good reason to be in the world because you're like right I'm like you know I'm building myself up and I'm getting better equipment and I'm training you know for this task of like freeing my friends so that was a good reason to be in the world and something like Skyrim which I just thought was a really compelling world I just really wanted to explore so I think
00:41:53
Speaker
games like that that have these great worlds you know these great worlds are built and developed and you really want to like poke around and explore I think is a good reason but as well as as you say as well whatever the reward is I do think there has as you say has to be something to like encourage you to go forward because otherwise it's just like what's the point in putting you know 20 hours into this you're not going to get anything from it. So looking back to the question we proposed at the beginning of this episode where we said have open world games reached their limit in terms of
00:42:23
Speaker
Either the story, the gameplay, really just the presentation in the kind of modern gaming landscape.
Revitalizing Open-World Games
00:42:30
Speaker
Do you think, as of that, they have reached this limit? And if you do think that, how do you think they could kind of revitalise themselves?
00:42:40
Speaker
I think to an extent they have reached a limit, but I think it's very much that model of, and I'm going to keep saying the Ubisoft model, but that kind of large open world with the checklists of very repetitive tasks, I think has reached its limit and I have really no interest in experiencing those anymore because I've played them and I'm like, it's just going to be the same thing that I've done before. But I do think there's still this potential for the open world.
00:43:05
Speaker
However, I think open world games can kind of revitalize themselves by scaling down, by creating smaller environments, but much more detailed, much more immersive environments. So something like Deus Ex Mankind Divided, which was the last Deus Ex game.
00:43:21
Speaker
released, which is a pretty good game. I don't think it's anything spectacular. But one thing that it has, it has a great kind of central hub world, which is basically kind of a section of Prague. And it's pretty small, like it wouldn't take you long to explore all of it, but it's so intensely detailed.
00:43:36
Speaker
And you have the ability to go into so many different buildings and shops and apartments. And there's these great stories for you to uncover. And you'll find different things in these different buildings and apartments that provoke further questions. And some might lead you to side missions. Some might just be environmental storytelling and details that you'll find. As well, it's a reactive world. It's the kind of way that if you kill a shopkeeper in the game, basically the next time you come back, it'll be like a police crime scene. And then if you come back later on than that, the shop will be closed and boarded up.
00:44:04
Speaker
police tape and everything, so it gives you a sense of you can have an impact on this world. So I think that's the way to go. I mean, I just finished up Prey. The last Prey game was released in 2017, which has like a kind of open world set in this sort of space station. It's quite big, but it's still fairly small and contained in the spaceships kind of divided up into different sections. I had like such a good time just exploring that and kind of poking around. And if you'd get to a new sort of area of the space station, I was like,
00:44:29
Speaker
I want to like poke into every room and every nook and cranny and find out what I can, you know, whether it be mission specific stuff, side missions or just like kind of cool details, all these different details you can find. So for me, that's the way I think open world games should potentially go. I mean, I still think there's there's room for these kind of much
00:44:46
Speaker
bigger experiences, you know, and companies can still make them. I still think, I understand what you're saying about Rockstar and perhaps it's getting packed, they're packing the things with just too much detail now, but I still think there is a space for those type of games. I just think it's the fact that perhaps there's too many of them now and it's just becoming, you know, that it's the oversaturation that is creating fatigue.
00:45:04
Speaker
So I would champion much more contained, smaller, but much more highly detailed environments because I think that just helps immerse the players so much more and really, you know, really highlights the strengths of what an open world environment can do while it's compared to a much more linear space. No, I think you've hit the nail on the head with it.
00:45:22
Speaker
one of those things though where although there are certainly there's lots of variations of the open model genre, and as you said there's the Ubisoft model, there's the Rockstar model, but at the end of the day it's more or less what we may call it. And I know this is gonna sound maybe quite cheesy and it deserves to be like a greeting card or something like that, but open model games
00:45:48
Speaker
do have a special place in people's hearts, and I know I've kind of been quite critical on open world games, but I don't want you listeners out there to think that I'm in any way against open world games. As I said, some of my favourite games of the genre, as I said, Spider-Man, Deathly Premonitions, Skyrim, even Fallout to an extent, Red Dead Redemption the original, all these games, I have so many fond memories of them.
00:46:13
Speaker
exploring the landscape, making memories with my friends as well and things. Of course there's also Halo Infinite but we did a whole episode of that so I won't linger on that too long but the fact is these games can hold a special place in people's hearts but when you have, as you said, the Ubisoft model where you
00:46:33
Speaker
you churn out these very soulless games. Not I'm saying every game has to be GTA levels, but I always remember playing Watch Dogs when I played it for the first time. I remember how stiff it felt playing it, and you know there was a controversy behind how
00:46:51
Speaker
the character was supposed to be you know very highly detailed and when you actually got into the world it was as if you were driving a bumper car and people didn't react around you. Slight spoilers for anyone out there if you're listening but for watchdog
00:47:07
Speaker
I always remember there was a particular subplot, and I think I've told you about this Adam, where you have to hunt down a serial killer, and I remember the first time, because I accidentally, I was exploding, and I accidentally came across like this, a body wrapped in plastic with a camera facing it, and before you ask no it wasn't Laura Palmer.
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah, it was quite interesting. You thought, oh my god, this is really spooky and weird. You have to go to all the different locations to find the other bodies before you meet up with the actual murderer, so this goes on for ages until you finally see him and you're about to catch him before he gets his next victim. And then it just kind of plays out.
00:47:51
Speaker
any other normal interaction, like as if you're stopping a mugger or something like that. You just go up to him, you smack him on the back of the head. That's it. Nobody says anything. There's no reaction to it. There's no change in the gaming world. And that is the main issue, I think. Open-world games have to be reactive if they're going to be engaging, because if they're not reactive, then why should we as gamers put all our time into these kind of games? And I mean, even looking at games like
00:48:20
Speaker
Sleeping Dogs, which is by far one of my favourite games where you play as an undercover police officer who infiltrates the Hong Kong Triad, and that you build up a thing called Face, or what's the other thing as well? I think, is it Face? There's a kind of police bar that goes up in the criminal one. I know the things you mean, I can't remember what they're called even, but I think Face is one of them, and you're right, there's like a police whatever it's called.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, it was like, depending on whether you were like a good character or a bad character, you know, these bars would kind of go up and it would depend how certain people treated you. I honestly, like to this day, I still think it's fantastic. It had such a good twist on the open world genre. Yeah, all I'm saying is I want to sleep in dogs too, Adam. That's what keeps me up at night. I actually can't believe it's not happened because I feel like it feels like the kind of thing that somebody would have picked up by now. Or maybe it's, maybe there is something happening.
00:49:16
Speaker
just don't know. Well there was supposed to be a film coming out. Really? Yeah it was supposed to be Donnie Yen who was like the lead actor. I mean no offence to Donnie Yen but not
00:49:27
Speaker
I mean, back in the day I know he's a bit older now but with all his films where he takes like a more, I say a more martial art role like Ip Man and things like that rather than Rogue One because I know as soon as I said on the end I'm sure your head went to Rogue One and it went to Odo. My head went to, I want to play this game
00:49:49
Speaker
So you don't want Sleeping Dogs 2 directed by David Cage? No, no. I mean, I don't want that. I don't want a film version directed by David Cage. I also don't want a game version directed by David Cage. Well, I can't blame you, Adam. I can't blame you. And speaking of changing the
Balancing Preferences: Linear vs. Open-World
00:50:04
Speaker
subject. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the other side of the coin here. That of course being linear games.
00:50:11
Speaker
I would say since it's inception, video games have always had this kind of linearity to them. You know, you get from point A to point B, and that used to be enough for a lot of people, but nowadays there's just so many forms of gaming that everyone has their different tastes. You've got your RPGers, your indie gamers, shout out to Craigie C, if he's listening
00:50:38
Speaker
you've got your FPS guys, your platformers and things so it's just like so widespread but the kind of unifying umbrella between them is are they more of an open world experience like for example Elden Ring which has just come out, it came out earlier in the year but you know something like that or Shoot Games really leans
00:51:00
Speaker
more into the linear side because that's what they used to be like and they would have kind of evolved into these open-world experiences. So what do you think about that Adam? Well it's funny I was just thinking that I mean we've been talking obviously about the fatigue of open-world games but I think maybe one of the first fatigue things in gaming was with the linear cinematic gaming experience you know with like a heavy kind of focus on set pieces and action scenes where there was kind of limited involvement you know quick time events or
00:51:29
Speaker
chase sequences so it's funny to think that that was almost the first kind of thing that everyone was like oh there's just no more of this give us some freedom and now perhaps we're reaching a point where it's like no give us more we want more kind of scripted crafted experiences rather than these kind of more open-ended adventures that we've been having for the last few years I mean it's difficult to say whether gaming what gaming should do because I think it's just so highly subjective
00:51:49
Speaker
If I was to make a list of my 10 favourite games, probably most of them would probably fall more on the linear side of the scale in the open world. But I don't know, I feel personally for me, I remember when I was really into open world games, but I also remember when I really fell away from them and I can tell you the exact game that drove me away from open world games was Metal Gear Solid 5. In fact, it took me like six months to complete that game and I was like,
00:52:13
Speaker
I don't want to do this again. I want much more tighter and shorter experiences. And so I'm very much focused on that and then playing things like Assassin's Creed, obviously, just reinforce that opinion for me. But recently I've come back more to open world games. You know, I've not like completely gone away from linear experiences. I like to kind of balance. I personally like to balance them out. You know, I like to play sometimes I like to play longer games. I said I've just finished Prey recently, but I don't think I want to jump right into another open world experience right now. I'd want to play one more shorter games.
00:52:41
Speaker
So I feel like I fall in the middle. As I say, I think my favorite is the sort of hub world model of having a kind of open world environment, but it being kind of smaller and more contained and kind of highly detailed. And then if you want to just set the whole game there, that's cool. But if you also want to branch out to have more linear sections, sort of like Halo Infinite has, then I think I like that as well.
00:53:03
Speaker
I don't know, for me now I kind of fall in the middle and I don't know, I can see there's benefits to both sides but I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if one side in my view has the upper hand on the other. What do you think? Do you fall more into one camp than the other? This is going to probably be a slap in the face to people listening to this and being like, okay, what's your definitive answer?
Innovation and the Future of Open-World Games
00:53:24
Speaker
But I'm going to join you up in the fence there.
00:53:27
Speaker
In all seriousness though, it's a hard one because at the end of the day, as you said, gaming is so subjective. I don't want to come away from this particular episode and be like, oh, open world games are terrible now, they're the devil, blah blah blah.
00:53:42
Speaker
they're not. There is a lot of care and attention put into most of them, obviously not to the same extent for a lot of them, having games like Cyberpunk 2077, the absolute
00:53:58
Speaker
release of Skyrim, GTA, those kind of games that at their time were trailblazers and now they've just become like a running joke that will never get a sequel to either of them. I mean technically there is a sequel in the works but we don't know, like we don't know when they're coming out. But it doesn't mean that they're necessarily, as you said, it doesn't mean they're necessarily bad just because they're an open world game. But I do think developers have to
00:54:28
Speaker
tempered expectations when it comes to these games. Like you know, they have to kind of set a limit and not promise the world because obviously with hard games like as I said Cyberpunk, No Man's Sky, those kind of games that have promised, oh there's gonna be a 24-hour nightlife and every NPC's gonna get their own like routine and their own lives and it's like
00:54:51
Speaker
On the one hand, sure that's cool, but is it something that's really needed? Because I mean don't get me wrong, though I did laugh when Deadly Premonition got this right compared to when Cyberpunk actually came out, but even in Deadly Premonition they've got routines for the NPCs and the only reason I think that's great in a game like Deadly Premonition is because their routines actually give you clues about the people within the town itself
00:55:21
Speaker
within Greenville? Because if you think about it, what are you gonna learn if random Joel walking on the street goes into his house at 5am and then comes out and gets like a bagel at 7am? What's that gonna add to the experience is what I'm getting at? And I don't feel as if we do need to have explorable rooms because I know that is like quite a model for open-world games where they'll have certain areas where people will go in
00:55:49
Speaker
they'll explore this room or this area but there's not really much there and that's the talking point right now going back to Sonic because I know Adam you thought I wasn't going to link Sonic into this episode but have you actually heard the recent stuff about Sonic Frontiers? I have not, do tell. So recently as of recording this episode they released a gameplay trailer and a
00:56:16
Speaker
I think it was like a combat trailer. Both of which, for me personally, were very underwhelming because the world felt so stiff and empty. And there's a particular scene in it, and again, I can't speak for what it'll be like once it comes out. It might be like a lot, you know, good under and everything, but
00:56:35
Speaker
It just felt as if Sonic was so slow, and then he climbs a tower again to get a vantage point. But as soon as he gets to the top, he just slides down again. As I said, there's no reward for that. And you think, well, is there any point then of exploring this vast world when, you know, there's no... And maybe they're just hiding it for the final game. I don't know how it's gonna come out, but one of the other things as well was how Sonic felt so slow.
00:57:03
Speaker
And that kind of spatial is a big open field and you expect someone like Sonic to be blasting through and he was just very, very slow. And if you play a game like Spider-Man, you don't expect him to be walking everywhere. You know, this isn't a GTA mode. Likewise for, you know, if you're playing GTA, you don't expect to be walking everywhere. You expect to be getting in the car because
00:57:24
Speaker
clues in the name, Grand Theft Auto. You want that kind of balance between fun and reward. And don't get me wrong, when I say all of this, I'm not saying that open world games are the only ones guilty of this, because there's like a laundry list of linear games that fall into the same traps of these. You expect to go from one place to the other, and then it doesn't really
00:57:47
Speaker
help. Going back to something you were saying though, I do think there has to be that kind of personal side to it, you know, there has to be that connecting with the player as a whole, if that makes sense. Because even going back to Daedra Premonition, and I know I keep going on about it but
00:58:05
Speaker
some of the most memorable moments were between the characters and there were like certain areas you could go explore and even with like Sleeping Dogs as well going back to that you had like all of these areas that you felt attached to because you spent time there you got to know the characters I honestly see off the top of my head I cannot remember a single place in Watch Dogs bar like the main character's sister's house Aberdeen I just remember because it's an area of Hong Kong
00:58:35
Speaker
Oh no, that's for sleeping dogs. Sorry, I meant watchdogs. Did I say sleeping dogs? Yeah, sorry. Oh no, I'd remember Aberdeen. Like, how could you forget Aberdeen? I got the wrong dogs there, sorry. Yeah, no, there's tons of places in that. You know, there's the restaurant, there's the karaoke bar. You know, I could list all of them off, but for like Ubisoft games, you kind of think a lot of them are spectacle, but no substance. And again, that's a general blanket statement, but
00:59:04
Speaker
I feel as if to a degree, not all open world games, but I feel as if there are a lot of worrying trends that are coming from it. Because let's face it, there was a time where platformers were all the rage. So you got all the hard hitters like Mario, Sonic, Zelda, Banjo-Kazooie as I said.
00:59:24
Speaker
You know, you also got weird spin-offs like Bubsy 3D and all of that. I feel as if this is kind of where open-model games are at right now, because it's a bit like what battle royale games are going through, because you've got your, again, you've got your games like Apex, Warzone, those kind of games. Fortnite, of course, we can't forget about Fortnite.
00:59:45
Speaker
Yeah, at the same time, there is that kind of, as you said, fatigue, and you just get tired of a lot of the same things. And again, before we wrap up, I'm not a video game developer. I'm saying this purely from the perspective of a gamer, because I don't want to be like, oh, this is what you should do with your games, because I don't know the technicalities, how easy it is to do X or Y, but to kind of briefly summarise, I feel as if the more intimate an experience you have with the game,
01:00:15
Speaker
the more you're gonna get out of it. And again, when you said about Deus Ex, Mankind Divided, that idea of having a responsive environment, being able to feel like you've accomplished something. I mean, even linear games do that as well, but maybe there should be a bit
01:00:33
Speaker
I'm going to ask you one last question Adam, but do you think that there should be more linear aspects in open world games? I know that's a bit of an oxymoron, but I think it depends. I'm going to keep sitting uncomfortably on this fence.
01:00:49
Speaker
I think for some of the games it fits, I don't know if this game got it completely right in terms of the linear environments it had, but I do think Halo Infinite benefited from that idea of having a kind of open hub world and then more linear environments. I don't think all linear environments were great overall, but I think that structure worked well. While, I don't know, if you're thinking of a sandbox game, I think linearity would
01:01:16
Speaker
really be a detriment to that kind of game. Imagine something like Minecraft. You probably wouldn't want linearity in any stretch. You want ultimate freedom. I think Rockstar Games do it kind of well to an extent. If you want to have a more crafted story, I think you do have to have an element of linearity. But I think you can blend them well. And I like what a game like Metro Exodus did.
01:01:38
Speaker
and things like the original Bioshock did as well, and that it's a linear set of environments you're progressing through. However, each of those environments can be open-world, and some are smaller than others, but you get into a new environment, you get a chance to root around and explore, and I really liked that in both games. I liked seeing the environmental storytelling in Bioshock and poking into the nooks and crannies, and I liked in Metro Exodus
01:02:03
Speaker
you get this kind of rough map and then you need to get to vantage points to kind of scope things out and it doesn't give you like quest markers and things. You need to kind of plot your own route to objective. So I like that kind of element. So again, I think it depends on the game. I think if we're going to talk about if we set aside sandbox games for them.
01:02:22
Speaker
I think if you're talking about those open world games with more story-driven ones, I can see linear elements actually being a boon to that. But I think you need to be maybe careful in how you implement them, because I think too much linearity then goes back to Ellie and noir. It's like, well, why is this just not a linear experience? What's the point in the open world? So I think you can blend the two, but I think you need to do it carefully.
01:02:45
Speaker
Because, I mean, if you look at it in the technicality, open-world games technically do have a little bit of linearity when it comes to things like the, you know, the main story where they kind of fence off the rest of the open world and if you drift too far away they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
01:03:03
Speaker
hold on a second, you're playing a story here, you're not playing an open world game anymore, there's always exceptions like Minecraft and things like that but for games like again Red Dead Redemption or any GTA game really, I mean technically Skyrim does it well because you probably could just walk away unless you're in the middle of a cave but there's not as much freedom to walk away whenever you want
01:03:29
Speaker
But I know what you mean. If you put too much linearity into an open model game, then as you said, it loses its identity of being an open model game. It just becomes like another bulk standard linear game. Are there any kind of closing points that you want to get out there about this
Conclusion: Balancing Preferences in Gaming
01:03:49
Speaker
topic?
01:03:49
Speaker
I think again it's just as you said with kind of all gaming it's so subjective and I don't think you know I don't think we could ever come up with a definitive answer you know we can come up with answers that work for us but I don't think there's a definitive answer to this question of which is better like quote-unquote better it is a matter of preference and I think for me I like a balance you know I like I think there are certain games that suit being more linear but I think there's other games that suit being more open world and I think there's
01:04:19
Speaker
I think both should keep existing, but I think as well you can blend elements of both. You know, gaming is such a broad kind of area that there's space for so many different things. I think there's room for everything, but I think as well you can blend those two ideas successfully.
01:04:35
Speaker
It's a difficult one, isn't it? Oh, without a doubt. Going back to the question, I don't know how much it could be said that open-world games have reached that limit because there is so much more that they could do, but I feel as if if they go in the same way that they're going just now, you know, with all the collectibles and having the spectacle as it were, because let's face it, nowadays people want those 4K graphics and all the bells and whistles and things in their video games and
01:05:05
Speaker
especially when it comes to, I know we rant about cyberpunk and games like that quite a lot, but that's the kind of main example I can think of, especially with going back to 2016 with No Man's Sky, where they promised literally not just the world, but worlds in thousands of different scenarios, in fact not thousands, millions of different scenarios and planets, and then obviously it turned out it was false.
01:05:31
Speaker
maybe not so much the fault of the lead developer but at the same time again it's going back to that idea of tempering expectations because you don't want to keep fanning the flames of my games going to be the best because AAA games do that whether it is linear or open world they're always going to do that they're always going to see their games the next
01:05:55
Speaker
Especially for open-world games, do you remember when open-world games used to be called the next Skyrim or Skyrim with guns?
01:06:04
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose it's that way, isn't it? It's like GTA clone was a big title for a while, you know, in the kind of 2000s to 2010s. So yeah, but as you say, Skyrim, because Skyrim was such a like, such a hyped game and such a kind of touchstone release that, you know, it was almost inevitable things are going to get compared to that, you know, and as you say, it's like, it's got a model everybody wants to emulate. Yeah, but now it's Breath of the Wild.
01:06:26
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, so that's the one that's supplanted it, and I'm sure there'll be something else that'll come out, you know, and GTA, whatever, GTA VI will come out, and that'll be the one that is the Touchstone title now. Because if you look at even like the new Sonic frontiers, that's actually what they say about it. It's like Breath of the Wild, but with Sonic in it and you think, you roll your eyes and you think, Jesus, really? Is this where we are now?
01:06:48
Speaker
were calling Sonic Zelda crazy business but I don't know. I feel as if there definitely has to be a lot of stepping back and reevaluating what's what and I know that's kind of a blanket term. We could say that about a lot of companies and gaming nowadays but that's not to say that all open world games are bad and I just want to leave off in a positive note. Not all open world games nowadays are the worst
01:07:16
Speaker
They're not bad, but there is a need to, yeah, just take a step back and re-evaluate. Oh yeah, 100% agree. I think some introspection, retrospection review is never a bad thing. You see, on that note, I think we could probably wrap up this discussion, don't you? I think we've covered all the bases now, I think we've traversed the whole world.
01:07:40
Speaker
Well, on that note, Adam, thank you so much for talking about this topic. It was very thought-provoking and very interesting to research, I have to say. No, it really wasn't my pleasure, and thank you for suggesting it. I always enjoy these kind of analytical deep dives into broader gaming topics, so my pleasure, as you say, a fascinating read.
01:08:00
Speaker
I mean, this is an episode we've been talking about for ages, isn't it? It has been one that's been threatening to drop, so it's good to actually do the research for it and then to talk about it, so yeah. I've literally got a document waiting just with the words open world versus linear, and I think that was like raised in probably Season 1 of Chance the Nami.
01:08:22
Speaker
waiting for the right time for it. I just keep thinking back thinking what was it that? Was it not? I can't believe it but really glad to have finally spoke about it so thank you again Adam and thank you to all those lovely listeners at home for listening to this episode. If you want to give us your own opinion about whether or not you think the open model games have reached their limit and whether or not you are maybe 15
01:08:47
Speaker
a little bit with this genre of video games please feel free to let us know. So if you go over to the Chatsunami Podpage website and reach us via the contacts page please let us know your experience and thoughts because we would absolutely love to hear from you.
01:09:02
Speaker
But if you'd like to hear more of our general thoughts and other episodes of the series, you can check us out on Anchor, Spotify, iTunes, YouTube and of course the Chatsunami website under the name Chatsunami. Just look for the red panda and we will see you there. But until then, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode. Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.