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What makes a good action film?
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In this episode, Satsunami and friend of the show Craigy C flex their muscles to take on the age old question: what makes a good action film? From cliches to explosions, this is one that you won't want to miss!
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Transcript
Introduction and Special Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami, and joining me today for this Action Pack special is none other than the Kung Fu Master himself, Craigie C. Craigie C, welcome back.
00:00:32
Speaker
It's me, it's me. I don't look at explosions. It's crazy. I mean, you do a wee bit. I do, actually. They're quite scary. Before we get into this episode, can we talk about something important?
Funny Anecdotes and Transition to Main Topic
00:00:42
Speaker
We'd like to tell the listeners what arrives at your house today for Amazon. No, I would not.
00:00:48
Speaker
So, yeah, speaking of expo... In fact, no, I'm going to let you explain to the listeners, because I'm tired of justifying my response. You go for it, Craig, you see. So my memories are a bit blurry, but what happened? I said buckery.
00:01:04
Speaker
That last night, I actually messaged me saying, look at this funny thing I saw on Amazon, and it was Exploding Kittens Minions edition. And this is when I remember to get a wee bit fuzzy because I'm sure he said like, Craig, there's nothing in the world that I want more than for you to send me this right now. So I bottom it. It turned up today, and let me tell you, it's absolutely beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful, but my red panda lawyer will be in touch with the restraining order.
00:01:28
Speaker
He's drafting the documents as we speak. So by the end of this episode, you'll be freshly served with a restraining order never to bring a minion paraphernalia across my threshold. I can't believe I've declared it in customs. Yeah. I was like, sir, what is this? Oh, it's just a banana. You sure it's not a minion reference?
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah, speaking of explosions and minions being as far away from the topic as possible, today we are indeed going to be talking about something that you and I of course share an interest in, that of course being action films.
Main Question: Good vs Bad Action Films
00:02:04
Speaker
Now I'm not talking about, this was a question that you had before we started the episode, like are we going to include films that have action elements or anything, or are we going to go for just
00:02:15
Speaker
the law and the punching and shooting and the kind of stuff your parents wouldn't want you to see, of course. But yeah, that is indeed what we're going to be focusing on. We're going to be focusing on the pubias, the bang bangs and the, I suppose, the owies, maybe. Yeah, today we're going to be asking one firm question. That question, of course, is how to keep Craig away from my house. No, I'm kidding.
00:02:38
Speaker
today we're gonna be asking what makes a good action film what is it about a good action film that separates it from the rest compared to a bad one and of course you know we're gonna be showing our work we're gonna be talking about our good examples our bad examples and yeah before we go into Craig what is your experience with these kind of
Nostalgia and Evolution of Action Films
00:03:02
Speaker
films? I love action movies
00:03:04
Speaker
to the stage that I have pretty much exclusively watched action movies my entire adult life.
00:03:12
Speaker
I love action. The sillier the better. If you ever go to cinema and you see a trailer for a movie and it's like The Rock and he's in the jungle because he's always in the jungle and it's like The Rock's in the jungle and he's just bartering. Guys and you're like, who is this film for? He's already beaten five other movies in the jungle. It's me. I am the target demographic and I will go see that film every time. You're one of the main problems of society, Greg. I am the reason that cinema doesn't move on.
00:03:37
Speaker
You're the person that Stanley Kubrick talks about in his speeches. He's not made a good film though, so... No, I'm just kidding. It is. But the one. Yes, and that wasn't Terminator before you ask. Yes, that's another controversial director we won't be touching. I know we will be touching on this, but on the strokes as I eat. But yeah, I suppose I'm kind of the same because you and I were both born in the
00:04:02
Speaker
wonderful decade of the 90s and we very much got the, I don't want to say leftovers, that's like unfair to say, but you know the kind of carry over from the very heavy action of the 80s films, you know you've got your Predators, your Commando, your
00:04:19
Speaker
Oh, I mean, obviously you're not suddenly on your Schwarzenegger films, but you've got your Rambles, your Sylvester Stallone films. I was going to throw a bone to Steven Seagal, but I will leave him to the side. No, I'm leaving him to the side. We will pick him up. We will pick him up after we're done. He's got a juice box in the corner.
00:04:38
Speaker
I'll believe him. He's playing guns. He's playing guns in the corner. We got a lot of exposure to those kind of films, especially Terminator as well. Who could have forget that one? But you know, those kind of films that defined the 80s and then when the 90s came along and they kind of copied it. Some successful, like some absolutely trailblazers, others maybe not so much. But it is amazing, isn't it, that how prevalent they were during the 80s and 90s weren't they?
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I think part of, just when you mention all the Arnie and Stallone films, I think one of the big things for me growing up is that me and my family would go to a lot of car boot sales and markets and stuff like that and a lot of other things. We'd just buy VHS copies of Arnie films because I loved action movies. Probably watching a bit too young, but that's all right. We've all been there. We've all been there.
00:05:25
Speaker
And yeah, it wasn't really till the later noughties that action movies started getting. There was that period, I always think of like the Batman trilogy, the Christopher Nolan ones where action movies were really out of fashion by that point. It was all that sort of dark and gritty action people wanted to do. And it wasn't really until the Avengers movies started coming out again that I think action became more popular again. Obviously there's still great action movies throughout that period, but like the mainstream kind of moved away from it for a while.
Impact of CGI and Trends in Action Films
00:05:50
Speaker
I think it was seen as quite old-fashioned. But yeah, in the 80s and 90s they were everywhere and that's great.
00:05:55
Speaker
It is crazy to think, though, that, as you said, by the time the mid-2000s rolled around, I mean, there was a lot of guff. Like, I'm not saying that the 90s and 80s were absolved of this, because you had the Hulk Hogan saga. That's a bit of a... Oh, you were laughing. That's like silly fun action, but you wouldn't watch it going... In fact, let me backtrack. You know those compilation videos of, like, top 10 fight scenes, and, you know, it's like all these classics.
00:06:24
Speaker
Kung Fu films and all these classics, things like that. Have you ever seen Hulk Hogan on that list? I wouldn't like to answer the question. I rest my case your honour. I rest my case. Yeah, it's crazy to think that during the kind of mid-2000s, or rather early 2000s I should say, because was that not the time there were films like Charlie's Angels and, you know, the reboot one that was
00:06:46
Speaker
awful. And no get me wrong, I know that obviously they were going for a certain demographic with those kind of films, but it was almost kind of a lazy action that wasn't, and again obviously, mileage may vary, but there wasn't as much of a drive in some regards for
00:07:01
Speaker
these kind of films. Is it right in saying that Hollywood is always trying to evolve and chase the latest trends? I think we're kind of reaching the end of the superhero trend. Superhero films are always good to continue, but I think people nowadays are probably getting burned out with that, so they're looking for maybe the next thing to move on to. Yeah, they're always going to chase these trends. I think action was just kind of out of fashion, and the action that was in fashion was very CGI heavy, very
00:07:30
Speaker
I'm thinking of the original X-Men trilogy, definitely my eligibility, and then Terminator 3, that's kind of that to either as well. You know, you get all these really CGI heavy, and that was pop, CGI was pop at the time, and I think that was kind of what people were pushing. I think the action movies took a bit of a hit, and I think we can all think of at least one or two really weird CGI moments in an otherwise normal film. Like The Mummy Returns, of course. Scorpion King. I was going to say Falcon, but I'm choking on that word.
00:07:57
Speaker
that effect. But you mentioned Hulk Hogan so just quickly to pivot on to another wrestler turned actor The Rock and when he first started acting he didn't get a lot of action roles and a part of that is just because there wasn't any so he was a scorpion king and he went and did a bunch of like comedies and that was what was in at the time like action just was not in. He would have been given action roles had there been any but yeah who knows what the next trend will be so we'll always have the 80s and 90s action movies
Elements of a Good Action Film
00:08:23
Speaker
to look back on.
00:08:23
Speaker
Because I mean, around the 80s and 90s we also have, I suppose it's right to say we also have international cinema that's slowly made its way over. You've got the Kung Fu films of Into the Dragon, the police story,
00:08:39
Speaker
things like that. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon of course, that's the other like famous noticeable one but it does seem weird how, although those were getting popular and you know even films like The Matrix started copying aspects of that into their own album, it is quite interesting to see how they have adapted over the years and there's definitely a shift in the way that they're made because have you ever seen this? This is kind of slightly off topic but have you ever seen people on YouTube make
00:09:08
Speaker
contemporary trailers for older films? Yeah, I know the idea. It does fit, but there's something in the back of your brain, you're like, I mean this is working, but why is it working? First of all, let's start with a positive, let's start with a high, but what is one of the things that you would say is most important
00:09:27
Speaker
for an action film to work. Could still get me wrong there's like a broad range but what's one of the main ones you would start off with? Okay so right I've got a list here in front of me and right at the top of my list, muscular people.
00:09:41
Speaker
and I am not joking. Not just saying this is a muscular bit like the Hollywood action star, that is to me the pivotable thing of action movies. I guess, sorry Hollywood is probably unfair but the action star, so I know you're going to mention now Alimentas or The Raid, even in that film the guy's in incredible shape.
00:09:59
Speaker
And honestly I think that's a huge part of it. There are some films that flip that so you do get films like Harry Brown the Michael Caine movie where he's like an old geezer killing people but typically I think a really good acting film you've got people in incredible shape and I don't know why but I think that just activates part of your lizard brain and makes you want to see what this freaking nature can do. And I think that's why Arnie was so popular, it's why Stallone was so popular, it's why Marvel was so popular, it's why Henry Cavill keeps getting employed.
00:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, there's definitely a type. I do see what you mean. I think it's more the case for Western films rather than, you know, maybe like Eastern action, whether that's from, you know, like with The Raid with Indonesia or Crash and Tiger and Dragon with China, things like that. Because it seems as if over there it's more focused on the character. Whereas don't get me wrong, you do get massive disagree. Look at Bruce Lee. Look at the size of him in his films.
00:10:56
Speaker
Okay, okay. Well, I will say that, going back to what you were saying, they are definitely a lot leaner, but I do have one caveat there, and that is an actor. I don't know if you've ever seen him in any of the films. His name's Samuel Hung, and he was in the, I mean, he's been in like a lot of films with actors like Donnie Yen and the
00:11:18
Speaker
Ip Man films and there's been a couple others that are escaping me right now but he is a very portly guy. He is quite rotund but see at the same time Jesus Christ can he move? Not to put him down because he will put me into the grave but he is like a very spry and he can actually move really well and things and that. You're always going to get exceptions to the rules like I said I did mention Michael Cane but there is a there is a thing that you need.
00:11:42
Speaker
But no, I totally agree. See, when you think of, and I'm thinking of the bare basic traditional action film like your Arnold Schwarzenegger's, your Sylvester Stallone's, you know, the big muscles bulging, the big chiseled jaws coming out the poster. You have to put on 3D glasses and not get poked out.
00:12:00
Speaker
I totally agree with that. There is that expectation now. I would go as far to say as it leads on to the next thing that you want a strong character to be your action lead, your diehards or your terminators or you know things like that. You want a character that even though he goes through hardships, he or she is resilient. They're always going to fight for whatever cause they're fighting for and I mean even in other action films like
00:12:28
Speaker
especially going back to some of the Hong Kong films like Police Story. I don't know if you've seen that but this kind of leads onto my next point of the choreography. I feel as if it's like a massive thing, like would you agree with that? Yeah but I'll touch on the strong thing first just because I want to out that thing, that's funny. One thing I think makes a really good action film and I've got that here lead character but particularly
00:12:49
Speaker
lead character being quite simple so you don't particularly want a complex lead character. I think in an action movie having them be very much I have a problem physically and emotionally I've overcome that problem by the end of the film I'm a better person is the way to do action movies and yeah there's definitely other ways to do films blah blah.
00:13:06
Speaker
But the classic action movie, The Matrix, starts off a very normal person, and by the end of it is incredible. I think that's the key to doing action movies, because the more complex you're trying to make that main character, the
Choreography and Modern Action Film Styles
00:13:16
Speaker
more you take away. And also I think having side characters who are interested is very fun as well, but I think as far as lead characters go, you keep them very simple. And yeah, that strength of will is actually...
00:13:24
Speaker
usually what gets people interested in the film but as you're going to go into choreography that is I think maybe the most important part of any action film and one thing I was talking about that dead zone of action movies and sort of the noughties and one problem I think happened during that was people got so interested in that like shaky cam effect if you remember that every action movie had have super tight shooting everything's shaking you can't tell what's going on and I feel like that choreography was really lost and then there was an early sort of 2012 kind of time they started trying to bring it back and you got a lot of
00:13:54
Speaker
far away shots in action movies. There are two that stick out my head at the moment. Pacific Rim and Skyfall both did it where they had an action sequence with a very plain backdrop. I think in Skyfall it's like a plain lit. It's right at the start of the movie and he's fighting like a sniper. They kept the camera very zoomed out for that and Pacific Rim did it as well where it was like no we're showing you all the action and I think that's what you need when it comes to these great choreography fight scenes.
00:14:17
Speaker
into the dragon it loves let's fight scenes it drags about it's got very few camera cuts during a lot of the big fight scenes it's like no no you this is what you're here to see watch it in the raids the other one there's that fight with it's the two main characters fighting the bad guy and they zoom the camera out for that there's a long long shot of the three of them just fighting that choreography is so so good in that film and that's what makes that film if it wasn't for that choreography that film wouldn't be nearly as good
00:14:40
Speaker
This isn't an exaggeration. You know how people say, oh a film changed my life and everything. This film actually changed the way I saw action films. And I honestly, ever since I saw the read and by extension the read too, I cannot watch like another action film again without comparing it.
00:14:55
Speaker
to the type of action that they portray in that, because obviously there's a lot of martial arts, I think it's silent, that they use, you know, like a very aggressive form, but they never do this, I mean, maybe once or twice, but they never do this whole get your camera up the main character's backside and
00:15:12
Speaker
up every two minutes. It was like the worst example of this, and I was howling when I found this out, but you know, taking that series. So you know how they had three films. They had taken which is considered to be quite a good action film, and it does have a lot of good action, but then you had the sequels which were just horrifically bad. And I remember in the third one, there's a scene where Liam Neeson is trying to escape the police, and he jumps over a fence.
00:15:38
Speaker
but it cuts like five or ten separate times while he's climbing the fence. It's like there's no need for it at all but maybe he couldn't get over the fence and they just cut it. I don't know but it's just such a weird cut. They could have like cut away and then shown them over the fence but no they had to like cut with him in different shapes on the fence. It's like what is going on but you're completely right with films like
00:16:02
Speaker
The Raid, another one I absolutely love. Itman, that's one of the other ones that really got me into it where there's a particular scene where the main character is fighting against 10 black belts in karate and he uses his one charm to defeat them and it is just such a... I mean that goes into the trope mind you of like oh one person at a time
00:16:23
Speaker
but there is a moment where some of them do gang up on them, and it's just done so well. Another one, of course, is Police Story, which is one of Jackie Chan's, I don't want to say first films, but it's relatively early in his career. My God, see the choreography in that, if any of you action fans haven't seen Police Story, go and see it. The action, and again, I'm not advocating for this, but the fact that at the very end he jumps down this, it's like a massive pole in the middle of this.
00:16:52
Speaker
All of you have seen that. A lot of lovers see for the ending of Police Story 1 and 2, they show you behind-the-scenes footage and I shut you up. The amount of times you see a clip of Jackie Chan just surrounded by paramedics and kind of lying there. Life was like, is this supposed to be entertaining? Because you know how you watch him in Rush Hour or any of those films and he's laughing and making upbeat jokes. And this one, he is dead on the ground. And they're like, oh,
00:17:23
Speaker
Whereas, yeah, when you get action scenes like... I always remember watching The Chronicles of Riddick and nearly getting blinded because it was just so dark. I mean, another example, although technically it's not a film, but you know how Game of Thrones did it in one of their Season 8 episodes where it was just this? Yeah, In Invisibility. Yeah, there's a lot of films like that recently and of course by extension
00:17:48
Speaker
shows that seem to do that. I don't know, do you think it's just a confidence
Utilizing Action Stars and Directors' Role
00:17:52
Speaker
thing? A lot of films don't have confidence in their choreography so they think, okay, let's make it as dark as possible and let's cut it as many times. I think they're trying to be stylistic because one of the films I had down here, and I wasn't too sure if it fully counted as an action film or not, but it's Scott Pilgrim and it's got fight scenes in it.
00:18:10
Speaker
especially at the end. And they are very, very, very basic. If you were just to look at the choreography, you know, none of the people in that film are martial artists, I don't think. I keep it wrong. Someone's going to be nice and be like, no, they're all amazingly trained. But they may instead make the fight scenes very stylish, so they have things coming up a little bit screen and effects and blah, blah. And obviously you can't do that in Game of Thrones, but I've never felt like beforehand Game of Thrones had a problem with fight scenes. So I don't know. I think it's people trying to be stylish and not doing a good job of it, if I'm doing totally honest.
00:18:37
Speaker
Another thing I would say as well is whether it's the director or the choreographer, whoever's responsible, not utilizing their action stars correctly. So for example, and this is a very, this is where I've got to be in my body here, but I've watched the behind the scenes of when I did the episodes with Adam on the raid and the raid 2, we looked at the behind the scenes stuff
00:19:00
Speaker
and that is amazing, the dedication, the effort that they do, they have to move the set as they're fighting and everything. You know, it's like, it's absolutely masterful cinema making but when you look at the same actors, so obviously they've seen those actors on the raid and they think, oh we need these actors in our film and one of the films that the main character and I think
00:19:21
Speaker
think it was one of the main villains out of the raids they got in, and they put them into Star Wars of all things. And yeah, The Force Awakens. And everyone was like, oh my god, it's the guys from the raid. And then they get gobbled up by like, come on, Stan. You're like, what a waste. It's like not using that potential talent because the opposite thing happened in a film of my watch recently, John Wick 3, where they've actually caught the two main villains from the raid 1 and the raid 2, and they get them to fight John Wick.
00:19:50
Speaker
And they're just kind of very respectful fight between them. They're trying to kill one another, but at the same time they're still respectful. They're not trying to do any dirty underhanded tactics. They open them up when they fall. That's the right way. But yeah, when you get a film that just totally doesn't use the talent,
00:20:09
Speaker
as it were, correctly. Yeah, I think a lot of that comes down to directors as well because you see Michelle Yeoh, she's in a lot of stuff recently and we'll see everything everywhere all at once. She won a lot of awards for that but she was in Star Trek Discovery. It was cool. And she barely got to do anything on that. She had one fight scene like, oh, this is what she's famous for and they went, ah, it was the director that didn't know how to shoot it because it was really, she never really got to show that aspect. And I think it's difficult to shoot action when you're not used to it. Yeah, no, I would agree with that because
00:20:39
Speaker
people, especially action fans, are going to tell when action's done right and action's done horribly wrong. As I said before with the early Hong Kong films like with police story or even with Terminator 2, especially because I know Terminator
00:20:55
Speaker
technically is an action film and that as well is like a near perfect film but I feel as if they ramped up the action forward Terminator 2 so obviously for the sake of this argument we're going to focus on that but you know you can tell when a director just putting a lot of love
00:21:11
Speaker
and attention into the action and I think that kind of leads on to the point of treating action as a necessity rather than an accessory. Yeah 100%. We've focused a lot on like the choreography of issue of fighting but just when you're talking about treating action with respect Mad Max Fury Road I think is one of the best films ever made. That's obviously there's no fighting with
00:21:31
Speaker
and that I don't think. I don't think it does that at all. There's a wee bit, but you know, it's all with the car chasers. That's like the whole action sequence for them. And that's all done for real. And so the choreography of that and the expense of that. So there's like, they got in these circus performers. There's a really famous scene where there's these guys on like these big Volvo things and they're trying to get onto the cars and they're swinging over and that's all real. And the risk associated with that and the attention to detail of doing it real and not doing it CGI is, I think, incredible. Now you say it's,
00:21:57
Speaker
If people treat it correctly and put that passion into it, and George Miller did a really good job of that film, it's one of my favourite films, there's nothing in it but these ridiculous action sequences and people love it because it is just real and you can tell it's real. And I mean the great thing about the way the action is
00:22:12
Speaker
especially in Mad Max Yuri Road, the way that the action is portrayed is done in a way that gives everybody a chance to shine. You know, is it like, is it Charlie Theron? She is a very strong and capable character, you get to see her. I think she was also in, was she in a film called Atomic Blonde, I think?
00:22:33
Speaker
I was trying to remember that when I was doing research for this episode I was like oh yeah she starred in that film and yeah I went to see that in the cinema with a friend. It was amazing the things you forget. I think that is one of the beauties of action. I know we talked about a character that is simple but
00:22:52
Speaker
relatable.
Shift in Action Film Heroes
00:22:53
Speaker
But one thing I want to add to that is you were talking about of course it's usually the stereotype of like the strong muscular man that goes to save the day and everything, but something that I found really interesting is especially recently there has been a shift towards more female-centric action heroes. Obviously there's Atomic Pond and Mad Max Yuri Road, but one of the other ones that I was actually really surprised at was a Vietnamese one that I found randomly on Netflix. And my friend and I were like, oh yeah, let's watch this, let's
00:23:21
Speaker
about. And it's kind of the opposite of, well not of taken, but it's a similar premise of a woman who's living with her daughter in Vietnam and her daughter gets kidnapped so of course she goes to hunt the traffickers down and everything. The action is fairly decent and obviously you're not just thinking, oh female character go there, you're just seeing it as just this amazing action film and this idea that it's happy as it sounds. Oh anybody can be an action hero. Until you get to Steve and Seagal, but I will come on
00:23:51
Speaker
in a minute. No, I can just leave him in the corner. I don't know because I have seen, speaking of taking clones, I've seen his taken clone. I don't know what the hell that's all about. There was like, shamans chanting and him running in her breath.
00:24:06
Speaker
Real quick, can I clarify something? See when you say taken clone, you mean a commando clone, yeah? Oh, sorry. Oh, yes. Okay, that's fine. Just making sure we're all on the same page here, the commando. Was there a denote to taken, you know, stole? That's fine. Yeah. Just so we're all on the same page here. Well, all I can say is, did Liam Neeson rip out a car seat? He couldn't have tried. I mean, you're not wrong. Mr. Neeson, we love you. Please don't.
00:24:32
Speaker
it's just that it's going back to that point of the, er, silly as it sounds to say, actions for everyone. I feel like this is going to become the ragging on Steven Seagal episode because I have my next point written
Balance of Action and Plot in Films
00:24:43
Speaker
down here. Just Steven Seagal. A capital letter. It's good slash funny dialogue in particular one-liners. I said before we started recording I had something dumb I was going to say. Do you know what I thought the muscle man was going
00:24:55
Speaker
Oh no, that one. Oh so I want to clap, I didn't say musselman, muscular people. Oh, muscular people, sorry. Thank you very much. No, good dialogue. So I have a statement to make. Michael Bay has too much talking in his films and not enough explosions. I hate how right you are for nothing.
00:25:30
Speaker
a lot. Actually probably the best example of dialogue in an action movie with Die Hard. It's quick, it's witty, there's some funny jokes. That's all you really need. You don't need to be explaining the whole backstory of everything. I feel like Michael Bay always does this and it's another reason I'm going to rag on Steven Seagal because he's never had a good one later in his life. Sorry mate.
00:25:39
Speaker
Because everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that. Everyone wants to argue something like that.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's a lot but it's terrible compared to Arnie. But I think that's why the 80s action movies got so so popular. It's just like people love the stupidity of the dialogue. Like you know everyone's got a million Arnie quotes for every day. I looked up a list earlier, I think it was like Empire's Magazine's top 100 action movies and its top like things was like the year it came out starting actors and its most famous quote. So that's what people care about when it comes to action movies is the dialogue.
00:26:10
Speaker
No, that is a fair point. This is going to be my controversial take and I don't know how you feel about this when I say it, but that is almost how I feel. Maybe not for the first John Wick film, but see for every other subsequent film after John Wick. I feel as if at some point, obviously you need a story and everything and they're still great films, I'm not going to hold that against it,
00:26:34
Speaker
I feel as if for that they do try to invest you in the Lord or the one who would have been like, oh, the high table and oh, the assassins of long ago. And I'm just like, let's face it, the people in the audience are sitting here. They are not sitting here for the rich deep lore of John Wick. See if you are, see if you're like a John Wick aficionado. Please reach out to me and say what.
00:26:57
Speaker
I am 99.9% convinced that you're only there for the amazing action and Keanu Reeves of course but I'm more convinced because the action is amazing and that the action is fantastic but then you get slow applauding welcome to this place and oh welcome to that and you're like
00:27:15
Speaker
Like, the actors are great, don't get me wrong, the actors are absolutely fantastic, but I'm gonna be honest, like, I mean, do you watch John Wick for the plot? You're not there for the articles, you're there for the action. And I totally agree with you, it's a fine line, I would say, between getting a one-liner and then getting like a manufactured over-the-top line, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, totally. So James Bond, aficionado. Let me tell you, there's a lot of them that are really bad.
00:27:46
Speaker
I suppose that's the case for, and if I may reference the Timothy Dalton era, I always remember there's one particular scene, because his two films, and again check out the Chatsanami episode for the full opinion, but his films are very much action-oriented as well. He is by all means an action hero compared to like a spy, and that, I mean he is always, but in this particular set. And whenever he has a one-liner,
00:28:11
Speaker
Nine times out of ten, in the living day lights, these lines are really good, but in, I think, License to Kill, it almost felt as if in one of their two moments, they forgot to put in the dad joke, and then they were like, oh shoot, we forgot it, let's put it in. So there's a scene at the end where someone gets impaled in a, I think it's a forklift, and then he says something like, and I'm convinced, I'm convinced this is dubbed, he says something like, oh, he didn't get the point or something like that, and you're like, what?
00:28:41
Speaker
It's like, you've never been like this and then all of a sudden you're like, oh James Bond, you've got to throw that in
Realism and Relatability in Heroes
00:28:46
Speaker
there. The best one for me is always Golden Eye, where Xena on the top gets crushed. She's like attached to a helicopter and gets crushed between two trees. And Piers Brosnan just looks at this woman getting her insect ripped out. He's like, ah she always did love a good skirt.
00:29:02
Speaker
Jesus, Chris. I mean, it's like, oh God, I've moaned about this in our Pierce Brosnan retrospective episode, but there's a scene in Die Another Day that's just filled with dad jokes. I said it in the episode, I'm saying that again, I am convinced a person with a fetish for dad jokes wrote this song because there is just so many of them. There's literally one of these escaping the North Koreans
00:29:25
Speaker
he grabs a bell, you know, they watch as his hovercraft go over and he jumps down and he goes, saved by the bell. And I'm like, who are you saying this for? There is nobody around. Are you sentient? Do you know the audience is watching? Like, what is going on? So I'm actually glad you brought up Die Another Day, though, because that's actually one of my points. And you know, I've got Die Another Day down as a film in the good category here. Go on.
00:29:48
Speaker
Fight scenes and action movies in general where people take a beating and you can see it, I think that's really important. A film where someone looks different at the start than they do at the end is really important to action to make it land. We were talking about the Dungeons and Dragons movie beforehand and I was trying to think back about that and I can't remember, I can barely remember anything about it and part of that is because the characters remain very static throughout the film. Well if you think of down the other day they have the fencing scene which is the
00:30:11
Speaker
the fight scene where they both start off in the full fencing armour and then like two minutes later they're both punching each other in the face and they've lost all their clothes and stuff and they're all tattered and cut up. Always the best example is Die Hard, you know he starts off in his full clothes and by the way he's got no shoes, he's got a gun taped his back and all the brown stuff, the iconic imagery from that. But I think that's another super important thing is to show that the people losing
00:30:32
Speaker
the fight over the course of the film and I think one example I want to use isn't actually from a film but from a games the batman alchemist island games so when you start the game batman looks incredible and by the end of it he's all tattered and his cape's missing stuff and I think that's just like such a great storytelling device and when movies do that I just love that like the end sequence where the hero wins and they look like they just barely made it out alive and it's something like a lot of films typically like ones with a rock like he doesn't let himself look that vulnerable and I think he misses out a bit on that because like a vulnerable hero they just barely scrape by it's kind of amazing
00:31:01
Speaker
No, 100% on that one. Because although we said, you know, you want a character that is relatable, and I'm not exactly saying you're watching The Rock and going, oh my god, it's just like me, you want as well that relatability in the sense of you want a human.
00:31:17
Speaker
And I feel as if when you look at superheroes in particular, because that's a good point, when you look at superheroes like Batman or Superman, even though they do take a beating, that's kind of one of my main issues. And I think it's The Dark Knight Rises, where Batman essentially gets his back broken, but then some guy in a cave is like, don't you worry, I'll sort out that broken back.
00:31:41
Speaker
twist his back. It's like, oh you're good to fight Bane at the end and everything and you're like, I know it's a superhero film, you want to have the big man-to-man supervillain versus superhero fight and you have to find a way to get him back in the fight. But again, that kind of suspends that disbelief and don't get me wrong, it's a guy with a mask and a giant bomb in the city. You're not going to thank God it's a realistic thing, but when you see things like that you think, oh the superhero's going to win.
00:32:05
Speaker
It's a bit like, you know when you watch Dragon Ball compared to literally any other shonen anime? I thought you meant Dragon Ball Evolution movie that I was about to pop off and talk about this lately. That's next week's episode, don't you? Yeah, the fact is you know the superheroes, or rather the heroes, are gonna get a power-up. You know, they're gonna get stronger and they're just gonna defeat them without any issues. Whereas for films like, again, I don't keep going back to like The Raid, Hitman, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, you know,
00:32:34
Speaker
especially those kind of films, but I mean don't get me wrong, as you say, Die Hard, Terminator as well, where Arnie nearly gets blown to pieces at one point. You've also got other ones like Lord Boyle, To Nowhere Man, you know, those kind of films that it begins with someone who is clearly capable, but there is that evolution, unlike a certain Steven Seagal who looks as if
00:32:57
Speaker
he has just gone to the shop between takes and he doesn't really look tired. Probably has to be fair. He probably has to be fair. He probably has gone to the shops between takes man. He's taken his time. At least we're taken. Liam Neeson. At least he looks battered and bruised by the end even though he's kind of a superhero but you want to see the hero prevail at the end but
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's a completely agree with you
Role of Villains and Humor in Action Films
00:33:21
Speaker
though. It's definitely that progression. You know, you don't want to see the hero lose very often, but that actually brings me on to one of my points about the idea of the villains in an action film. Do you think they're important?
00:33:36
Speaker
I think it depends. So obviously a great villain can be great, but I would argue that I think most villains in action movies aren't so important. And I think if you look at the history of the Marvel movies, just to use them as an example, they really suffered because they started churning out all these origin stories and the villains kept getting killed off at the end of them. And then they went, oh my god, we've not got any villains now to be recurring characters. And you see that a lot with superhero movies, especially I think like Ani movies. I couldn't name you the villains in most of them. Obviously then you do get these iconic villains like Terminator 2 and
00:34:05
Speaker
So I think it really depends on the type of action movie you're trying to make. If you're just trying to make our characters cool and here he is for the first time then your villain can be terrible and you can get away with it. Even for example Mad Max actually is another example. The villain and that's kinda cool but you see him twice. He's not really like the big deal but then if you're trying to do something where you want the villain to be kinda cool, you know you're like Terminator, Aliens, I don't know if that really counts because they're not really villains are they? But you know what I mean? See I think it kinda depends on what kind of action movie you're making. It depends on how important the villain really is.
00:34:34
Speaker
Now that's a fair point because you can get villains that are very memorable but yeah at the same time you don't really treat the villains not always like in the case of superhero films you obviously treat them a wee bit more with the reverence but I mean even with Die Hard you've got Hans Gruber the classic archetypal figure of oh I'm gonna get you John McClain and then he eventually gets them but a lot of the time
00:34:59
Speaker
the villain is treated more as like an obstacle, rather than, you know, it's like it's the thing that the superhero or the hero in general has to overcome. Other than Mad Dog and the Raid going back to that, I can't remember who the main guy is that controls the whole apartment block
00:35:15
Speaker
Let's face it, you're there to see the main character fight his way up and survive these horrific conditions and everything. And then you get to Madoku. I have to say, I feel as if the henchmen are always a lot more memorable. Yeah, you always get the weirdo henchmen that get the massive fight scenes. Because I feel as if James Bond's popularised that. For an everyday blow fill, you've got like Jaws and Odd Job and people like that. I mean, you can't have the main villain without their support.
00:35:45
Speaker
I suppose, their policy. Yeah, you've always got to get some heavy that gets bad at the end. Indiana Jones loves a bit of that as well. Ah yeah, that is true actually. Yeah. I really need to do watch those Indiana Jones songs. It's funny, I was actually thinking when you were asking the question of the villains and one that popped into my head, not quite an action movie as such, but Star Wars, the first one, New Hope, I would call that an action movie just because it was very simple. If you think about just Darth Vader and that, he's just like on screen like five times and he's this weirdo guy that jokes people. Like that's kind of his whole
00:36:13
Speaker
Like that's it, that's all you get out of them. It's not the whole Anakin Skywalker, you know none of that's been written yet and you think how great that movie is and what or that all led on to. Yeah you really don't need a good villain. I've got one final point. I think to have a good action movie you need to have a good amount of cheese and or guff. Your film needs to be slightly bad.
00:36:33
Speaker
No action movie ever made has been consistently good, right? There needs to be something that makes you chuckle, or roll your eyes, or be like, that's ridiculous, and that's what makes the best action movies. One of my favourite films ever, Hobbs and Shaw, Fast and Furious Hobbs and Shaw, is full of stuff like this.
00:36:48
Speaker
One of our favorite sequences is the bit where a helicopter hooks up a car and it's trying to pull it away. So they make a chain of cars to keep that helicopter on the ground without it, so it's to keep that car on the ground without the helicopter pulling it away. And then the rocks are the back of the car that's getting picked up. The chain snaps, but the rock wants to keep the helicopter. So he grabs the chain himself, bearing in mind he's not counting to the medic, he's just like bloke, and he pulls a helicopter towards him by flexing his bicep. And at that point I went, this film's incredible. 10 out of 10.
00:37:14
Speaker
But no matter how good an action film is, this is kind of what I was saying about the cheesy one liners as well. I think every action film, whether that's the arm going through the office in Pacific Rim hitting the Newton's Cradle, which was done for reasons with practical effects, whether it's all the weird banter and bullet train, whether it's the weird faces in Terminator 2 or the smiling scene where they're trying to teach you how to smile, all these things need to be in an action movie to make it good, otherwise you've just got an old film with action bits in it.
00:37:40
Speaker
action movie needs to be cheesy or have some element of stupidity in it or goth and that is my final point for action movies. I do agree I feel as if and this would be sitting on the fence here but I feel as if the balance has to be there much like the dialogue because there's two particular movies I'm thinking of that
00:37:58
Speaker
maybe take the action and the you know the action and the dialogue maybe too far in the opposite direction. That of course being the expendable films which to be fair that is just a I suppose a love letter to all these action stars of like the 80s and 90s and such. But there's another problem I actually don't know if you've seen it. I actually completely forgot about it until one of the scenes emerged and the recesses are my repressed memory but have you seen the A-Team remake?
00:38:27
Speaker
Yes, yes. Yeah, I actually don't know if we might have seen it together. Maybe not, but that's the only reason I can think of why I went to say the 18th one, because there's a particular scene in that, that while cool, it's like they drive a tank in the air. I knew you were going to say that. Yeah, that's the one. Where it's like, this is so ridiculous. Is this the best thing ever?
00:38:49
Speaker
or is it ruining the film? But then again, I don't think that kind of scene could ruin the film, could it? Obviously you go any minute too much, it's too fast sometimes. Oh yeah. Yeah, you're right. But I will mention one real quick thing, Expendables movies, because you brought them up. Number one and number three, not great. Number two, it's totally different in tone and for some reason the person making it knew they were kind of rubbish and it's almost like a parody of action movies and I think that film stands out compared to the other two. So if you haven't seen The Expendables, just go watch number two because it's
00:39:18
Speaker
It's almost its own film and I think it's so much funnier than the other two. It really benefits from the good amount of cheese. Yeah, that is fair. Again, when you get the self-referential action films like that, it's a whole other boatload of tropes and things like that. But with the expendables, I think it is just slightly on that cusp, if that makes sense.
00:39:39
Speaker
I mean for the most part it is leaning into the part of the side because you've got the Chuck Norris scene. Is it the second one? That's the second one. That's kind of what I'm thinking of. There's a bit where Arnie turns up.
00:39:52
Speaker
and that leads me perfectly to ask lovely listeners if you have any particular points that you think either makes a good action film or you think maybe detracts from a good action film then please feel free to reach out to us and let us know. Please note though that the answer Steven Segal will not be accepted because we already know that makes a bad action film but um Steven Segal please don't come after us.
00:40:19
Speaker
What was that film where he was on the train? Was it Under Siege 2? Under Siege 2? Why didn't that? Because nobody knows the way out of that. We could be hiding and catering and then end up in the engine room for the next scene. Sorry, I just want to real quickly bring... I wasn't going to bring it up. You mentioned the film. Under Siege 2 has the single worst fights you've ever seen in a movie. It's the final fight and they've obviously filmed it and sped it up because everything looked out of speed so obviously he was going so slow so they just hit fast forward on it.
Conclusion and Acknowledgments
00:40:47
Speaker
It's incredible. That is the bad type of bad.
00:40:50
Speaker
But, and that wonderful Stephen Seagal with you. Thank you Craigie C for joining me today to talk about action films. You're welcome. I'm off to go pick up Stephen Seagal from the corner. See you later. Yep, okay. And as Craigie C goes to do that, and thank you, you have custody for the weekend.
00:41:09
Speaker
Thank you all so so much for listening to this episode, and yeah, please feel free to reach out to us and tell us what you think about action films. Are they your favourites? What are your favourite tropes? Please feel free, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to listen to our previous episodes, you can do it on our website, podpage.com forward slash chat tsunami, as well as all good podcast apps such as Spotify and iTunes. I'd also like to thank our amazing patrons who have been supporting us, Robotic Battle Toaster and
00:41:37
Speaker
Sonia, thank you so much for being Pandaloidian Patrons. So if you'd like to check out our exclusive content then you can check us out there. But until then, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated. And don't look at explosions.
00:41:52
Speaker
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00:42:27
Speaker
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