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Podcast 5 - Presecution
0 Playsin 3 hours
Come join us as we discuss the worldwide persecution of Christians
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Transcript
Introduction and Topic Overview
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, welcome back to the Grove Hill podcast. We're excited you've joined us. want to thank you for those of you who've been following along, listening what's going on and the conversations we're having and for your comments.
00:00:21
Speaker
Keep them coming. We want to hear what you want to hear about and what we can have the opportunity to talk about here between the three of us. Even some special guests we could bring in to be a part of this conversation.
Persecution of Christians Globally
00:00:31
Speaker
Today we're going to turn our attention to something culturally that actually came up in our staff meeting today.
00:00:37
Speaker
It's been a part of the news for, well, since there was news, truthfully. um It'd be easy to dismiss it and just say ah's it's come up recently, maybe because it's come up in our news feed a little bit more than than some other times. But just the the worldwide persecution of Christians and how we continue to see that spread and be intensified.
00:01:00
Speaker
Now, I want to start by putting this disclaimer out here. As it true followers of Jesus Christ, we believe any Any death is an unnecessary death. it's It's a tragedy. Whether that's a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu or whatever, ah we do not support the killing of people just for the killing of people because of differences of opinion. Because else are you going to win the lost if you don't go among the lost? Right.
00:01:25
Speaker
um So I just want to put that disclaimer out there.
Media Influence on Youth Perception
00:01:28
Speaker
This is not to to play downplay the death of any person in the world, but specifically, obviously, we want to talk about the persecution of Christians because it applies to who we are and what we're about.
00:01:38
Speaker
And I think two things today that kind of brought this conversation forward for us, ah the the now over two-year-long conflict in the Gaza Strip.
00:01:49
Speaker
um And let's be honest, that's been going on actually for, at this point, almost 80 years. We say it's two years, but it just intensified with the October 7th attack from the Hamas in in Israel.
00:02:02
Speaker
And then the reality that meets us in the news right now is that since the first of the year in the nation of Nigeria, estimates are that somewhere over 7,000 Christians have died for their faith. Many, many others inconvenienced, punished, put out for different reasons.
00:02:19
Speaker
So want to talk a little bit about that. Where do we see that in the world? Where do we see that fitting into our faith? um And even some conversations about how do we respond to that healthily as growing followers of Jesus Christ?
Martyrdom and Dehumanization
00:02:33
Speaker
So who wants to jump in and start the conversation? Where do you want to begin? There's a lot to talk about here. We we probably take more than 20 minutes. Well, I'll jump in on the student side yeah because my brain thought that the students would wouldn't be anywhere interested in anything that's happening in Israel. But apparently, you know, if Taylor Swift says that,
00:02:53
Speaker
uh, Israel's being mean and bombing babies, then it's really important to a student. Right. And so the topic is in their brain. The topic is on their mind. Um, and the world gets to speak into that and form their opinion on it. Um, and so we do address it. We talk about it. And when they talk about Israel, we talk about who is really is to God, um, where, where they stand, um, secular current Israel, um, walking away from the Lord. Yes. And so there's a ah different aspect to that.
00:03:20
Speaker
Um, but like you said, it doesn't matter in war. We care about every person who dies because we want to know whether they know Jesus or not. Yeah. So specifically the word we use many times when we're talking about this is martyrdom. yeah And technically you can be martyred for anything. You can be martyred for your faith. You can be martyred for your political stance. Martyrdom has come back to the forefront of our culture because of the death of Charlie Kirk and what happened there.
00:03:45
Speaker
And it just seems like to me the language around ah emphasizing our differences has been turned up so much so that we don't even see each other as human beings anymore. It's us versus them.
00:03:57
Speaker
John, speak to that a little bit, as you mean especially with young adults. that's He mentioned the students, but young adults, man, that's an entire sort segment of our generation right now that is really becoming very vocal about this.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think we try to dehumanize people. I think that's where it starts. And if those that are in places of great power can dehumanize, it allows this person, especially some of my young adult friends that we're walking along some of these conversations of how do we view other people?
00:04:25
Speaker
ah We've been walking through the Book of Romans and we're in chapter 12 right now talking about Christian ethics. How do we practice and live out those things with the person across the table? And the dehumanization that the culture today wants you to have lets you look at the other person across the table and say, oh, there's no value. They don't agree with me.
00:04:47
Speaker
Therefore, I can't even devote even a simple conversation to you. I think we as believers have to know that from the beginning of time, you said, you know, we can go to scripture and see the Stevens. We can see Paul. We can see so on and so forth time and time again, where that's been ah the model of.
00:05:07
Speaker
the world trying to silence the church or the world trying to silence believers, obviously they've seen that it's not very impactful. that God's truth is going to stand the test of time. But from their perspective, I think it's helping them to know where to start first. As far as the young adults, where do we start in viewing God's created being in humanity?
Biblical Perspectives on Persecution
00:05:28
Speaker
We have to start there and know that there's value in all of humanity, whether we agree with the person or not. And then secondly, we have to know that we have to stand firm for the cause of Christ, that it's got to be ah very ah heavily resolved and where our position is of standing in the the public forum.
00:05:50
Speaker
But I say that that there's always going to be wars. There's always going to be fights whenever it comes to ah the standing for Christ. That's not ever going to change, but i think it's a matter of how we position ourselves in that fight. Yeah.
00:06:04
Speaker
So ah to me, it's really important you understand the history of all of this, not just what's going on in Gaza, not just what's going on in Nigeria. John and I were talking before we came online, where did where does martyrdom and persecution begin? Well, it goes all the way literally back to Jesus. yeah In fact, in Matthew chapter 10, I just want to read a portion in the scripture. Jesus was very candid about this. This is one of probably...
00:06:25
Speaker
at least a half dozen or more pieces of scripture. He says, look, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of them because they will hand you over to local courts and flog you in their synagogues.
00:06:38
Speaker
You will even be brought before governors and kings because of me to bear witness to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, don't don't worry about how or what you are to speak for you will be given what to say at that hour.
00:06:49
Speaker
He goes on to talk about the fact that you... It's not a chance. You will
Historical Context of Conflicts
00:06:54
Speaker
be somehow persecuted because of the faith. In verse 23, he says, when they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Verse 22, he says, you will be hated by everyone because of thy name.
00:07:04
Speaker
So Jesus didn't pull any any punches here. He said, following me is going to cost you. In a lot of different ways, it's going to cost you. And almost immediately after Jesus' death, we see Saul, who eventually becomes the Apostle Paul, who starts on this campaign, among many others, of putting Christians to death, throwing them in prison, having them flogged.
00:07:23
Speaker
Well, then you fast forward to modern culture and what... what So many have done, which is really, really effective anytime you're trying to dehumanize somebody is they've sliced a segment out of history and pulled it out without its context and said, look at how bad those people are. Look at how bad they are treating those other people.
00:07:42
Speaker
Um, Most I would say most students in America most young people in America because our public school systems Stink so bad and they catered the history they teach and they rewrite history And yes, I said that and I'm happy to go to battle with anybody who wants to to hear more about that But the reality is that our kids are not being taught the history of what happened after World War two when Britain was given the assignment to set up a mandate to establish the nation of Israel again And literally from the day after it happened, 22 other Muslim countries around them started going after them to destroy them.
00:08:18
Speaker
Gaza is not something new. Gaza is the result of a 3,000-year-old difference of opinion between the people of that nation and the people who were given that nation by God. Yeah.
00:08:28
Speaker
And so that's what we're dealing with here. So speak to that a little bit. see you nodding your head, Kyle. So on the on the outside or the cultural side or the political side, ah we could look at it as a fight for land. You could look at it as a political fight.
00:08:39
Speaker
um But we know there's a spiritual underlining to all that, right? um Later on in Matthew, it says, do not suppose, is Jesus talking, the same chapter, Matthew 10.
00:08:50
Speaker
It says, do not suppose that I came to bring peace on earth, but I've come to bring, not peace, but a sword. ah For I have come to turn man against his father. a daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.
00:09:03
Speaker
This isn't Jesus saying, hey, I'm here to wreck things up. He's saying the message of the cross is divisive. yes the The name of Jesus is divisive. And how do we know that? Because it's been 2,000 years, and it's still the name of Jesus that is causing this divide. And so whereas Israel, with it's more like a You could look at it a political land grab. There's a fight for that land. There is that underlining of truth of this is a God's chosen people area, and there's just conflict in it.
00:09:32
Speaker
If you go to Nigeria, that's more of just Islam wanting to kill the name of Jesus, flat out. There's no land grabs. Yeah, they do gain territory and stuff like that, but it's...
00:09:46
Speaker
Islam going after Christians directly, um, in the name of, you know, their, their God. And so it's pretty interesting to see how, uh, divisive the name of Jesus is. And it's been so long and it's because there's a truth to it yeah and
Religious Extremism and Education
00:10:02
Speaker
evil hates the truth. Yeah.
00:10:03
Speaker
And I like the fact that you pointed out the fact that it's Jesus, the name of Jesus and what Jesus stands for. Nobody has a problem if somebody wants to come in and just feed people. no Nobody has a problem somebody wants to come build houses for people. Everybody likes the good stuff that goes along with Christianity, but it's the idea that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, and there's no other way. That's what gets people upset.
00:10:24
Speaker
um Since the year 2000, Nigeria has been a mess, a political mess, because of Islam poking its nose into the Nigerian country. Since 2009, when Boko Haran first showed up on the scene, it started to create problems there. It's intensified to the point where we see today it being that way. But it's not as far away, not the only country where we're seeing and massive persecution. And not only that, increasing persecution. Right. Nigeria is actually like number seven amongst the top 10 of the persecuted countries. Yeah. So you've got places like Iran, Iraq, North Korea, India, even now Libya, libya the places all over the world. And let's just shoot straight.
00:11:04
Speaker
Most of that persecution comes from the peaceful religion of Islam, right? yeah Which is the biggest pile of camel dung in the history of the world. yeah There's nothing peaceful about that religion. no I love the Islamic people. Why? Because God loves them and he died for them just like he did for anybody. And if there's anything we can do to reach a person who's bought into that lie, we're here for that.
00:11:27
Speaker
But let's not play games. yeah The Bible says don't toy around with evil. Jesus says you're either on my side or you're not. Well, they're not. Mm-hmm. They see Jesus as some good dude who was a good prophet or whatever, but Jesus never left that door open for us. All right, I'm talking about this. I think two points I want to hit on that you said.
00:11:46
Speaker
ah When you hear people talk about radical Islamic state, they're just literally following to a T what is stated in some of their readings and writings.
00:11:58
Speaker
Whenever you see more... cultural, I guess you want to call it moderate Islamic. It's just culture. I would liken them to not saying that the beliefs are right, but I'm saying their lukewarmness of a moderate Islamic is like the the person who says, Oh, I believe in God. Yeah. you know, the, the Christian, uh, the Christianese that so, sort of so to speak, uh, happens sometimes in cultural Christianity, not someone who really is a follower of Christ.
00:12:26
Speaker
Another thing you mentioned on the public school, uh, two things that come to mind in public schools and the reasons why these little areas of divisiveness grow to massive amounts of divisiveness. And the reason why we were, why we're in what we're in today in the, the current state of our culture, the current state of our public schools, accountabilities and subtleties. Satan works in those areas. yeah um The accountability of the American home is garbage. ah
00:12:57
Speaker
The accountability of the children that live in modern day America has been exchanged from the parent to the teacher in the school system. And they've said,
00:13:09
Speaker
here's my child. They say, here's my child and all that they are mold them into what you think they should be. And so then we get a twisted ideology whenever a 17 year old says, Hey, I'm about to graduate. What do I want to do with my life?
00:13:23
Speaker
And they end up going wacko. Uh, I think those accountabilities and those subtleties that get taught, um, and even the lessening of um,
00:13:35
Speaker
all those things get instituted in this public school setting because we have removed proper accountability and we've allowed the subtlety of certain teachings like you said even from the history perspective to go awry and from time to time if we don't continue to to keep a pulse on those things ah We'll so continue to see a generation go down the area of oh what you think and what you feel.
00:14:02
Speaker
That matters more than anything. yeah But we know that what Scripture says is that our heart is wicked. It is derived from a wicked place. We have a sinful nature and it's always going to go awry.
00:14:13
Speaker
So to take God away from things, it always messes the story up.
Threats to Christian Teachings
00:14:20
Speaker
So I want to talk about something that's kind of maybe slightly off subject, but I think is really important and vital to this conversation is it's the three big three things that we face in our country today.
00:14:30
Speaker
The first one I'll call communism slash socialism. ah The second one I would call... um The transgender homosexual movement. And of course, number three, the one we're talking about today, Islam.
00:14:43
Speaker
I think all three of those are major factors. And if you're sitting there listening today going, hey, I didn't want to listen to a political podcast. That's not politics. All three of those are direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. They masquerade themselves as other things.
00:14:58
Speaker
And what what all three of them do very well is they scream at Christians and convince them they need to be quiet because that their voice doesn't matter. And that's absolutely non-biblical. Yeah. It's against what Jesus Christ told us to do. And it's the reason why he said we would face persecution.
00:15:12
Speaker
So all three of those teach things, again, that are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ. They are all three now very permanently lodged into our school systems. yeah They have found their way into our government. I never thought I'd see a day where we would have Islamic mayors pushing for Sharia law.
00:15:29
Speaker
ah for communist people running for the mayor of the one of the largest cities in the world here in the United States of America. And yet here we find ourselves. So what's your reaction to those thoughts and what you're seeing? Yeah, I was just thinking that in my head, like we're we're focused on the persecution that's going on in other countries.
00:15:45
Speaker
um What are we doing to prepare our lives, our hearts, our our minds for what's coming to the United States? um In the past few weeks, we've seen the death of Charlie Kirk for the name of Jesus, not a political movement.
00:15:57
Speaker
it was for the truth that he spoke about scripture ah we've seen churches set fire we've seen shootings we've seen intentional attacks against the name of jesus and so as this rises as the agenda gets thicker as the government gets more involved and presses more we might be seeing revival amongst christianity right now but that means that satan's going to step up his game on how he counter attacks and so if i'm ashamed to speak the name of Jesus because someone might come at me with hard words, what's coming in the next 10 years is going to be absolutely shocking for you. And so start digging your feet into scripture yes and becoming the most solid follower of Christ, dying to yourself and taking on him so that when the time comes, you can boldly stand and say the name of Jesus under any circumstance.
00:16:44
Speaker
And so... Whether but four months from now or 10 years from now, the pressure will come on heavier here in the United States. ye um The statistics, which are hard to keep up with, let's let's talk about that.
00:16:59
Speaker
It's hard to really measure the statistics of persecution in the world because many of the killings and jailings and things of that nature, the imprisonment of people, many of those things are not recorded as...
00:17:11
Speaker
ah faith oriented things. They're recorded in other ways. And many of them were just completely hidden because yeah they know the world is watching. Even by those numbers, out of 380 million Christians in the world, the estimate is that more than 310 million of them currently live in what is described as
Preparing for Societal Shifts
00:17:28
Speaker
high levels of persecution areas wow where their life may be in danger, their career, their job, their family may be in dangerer danger because of their faith.
00:17:37
Speaker
Um, Kyle made a great point. We got to prepare ourselves. John, speak to that a little bit more. what do What do we need to be doing? Because if your eyes are open and you're remaining objective, you can't help but see that since Charlie Kirk's death, there is a new boldness of people who are just outright hating yeah Christianity because of what he stood for. hmm. Yeah, I think we've realized that, oh, wow, we have abdicated our responsibility. we've We've given up the, I just talked about it a second ago, ah the the accountability of America.
00:18:09
Speaker
This is America. He did it. Not me. right I mean, we want to sue somebody all the time because we say it's not my fault. It's their fault. Right. but We're just finishing up at our church the the walking through of the end of the Old Testament. We're in the New Testament now.
00:18:24
Speaker
But one of the things you pointed it out, Kyle, so well, is that every time that revival or reform happens, there's always an opposition. Absolutely. So the preparation is knowing what has happened in the past.
00:18:36
Speaker
How did... God intend for us to defeat this and you don't defeat evil with laziness. You don't defeat evil without a higher power on your side.
00:18:49
Speaker
So I think walking with God in this, walking with other brothers and sisters in Christ is first of all, the no brainer. and then I think it starts at the elemental things of walking alongside the personal conversations with your wife, with your kids, with the people like, who are you surrounding yourself with?
00:19:06
Speaker
Mm hmm. that is pushing you to a greater defense of persecution five years down the road, or maybe five months down the road, because we talked about it a couple podcasts ago that get ready.
00:19:19
Speaker
Whenever this administration comes out, or maybe it's the next administration, you're gonna face persecution, whether that's the local church or whether that's your family that believes in Jesus and you're adamant about your following of Christ, get ready. Because just as we saw the,
00:19:35
Speaker
the losing of jobs of those who are adamantly against the Charlie Kirks of the world. Get ready. So that includes... your relationship with Christ, but also the the simple logistics around ah your everyday life of making sure that you're a good steward of the friends ah that you have. Are you keeping good friendships? Are you providing yourself a way out whenever there is ah persecution in the midst of losing your job? Are you going to be financially ready if something like that happens? So there's a bunch of ways you can go through it, but preparation, I think starts there from God's word first.
Demographic Changes and Christianity
00:20:14
Speaker
So there are several things I think I see happening that are there create greater challenges for us. Number one, the percentage of, and I'm going to say it this way, true, genuine Christians in this world is subsiding.
00:20:27
Speaker
yeah Our birth rates are dropping. um We're not very serious about our faith, especially in the West. We've become too soft, too cushioned, too comfortable with our faith. ah I believe the number of Christians in the world is blown out of proportion by The fact that they include Mormonism in the Christian account many times.
00:20:45
Speaker
They are not Christian. We can talk about that some other episode. ah We've got people who proclaim to be Christian, and it's just in name only because it gets them elected or it gets them followers or whatever. So you've got that issue. I think you've got the growth of the Muslim faith, having babies left and right, so they're increasing in rapid amounts of marriage.
00:21:04
Speaker
time space whatever and then you've got all these other religions these smaller religions that many people had thought had disappeared i just read ah think it was just this morning actually that in the last 10 years in the united states of america we've gone from a hundred thousand people to over a million people who profess to worship some kind of pagan religion that's their own admission that's a tenfold increase um man people are just they And what it's evidence of is people are looking for something. They want that hope. They want that higher power. They want something to believe in trust in.
Responding to Persecution with Love
00:21:40
Speaker
The question is, will the church be there to provide that hope and that shining light for them? Or are we going to stay silent and just watch this wave start to sweep over our country? And so what does that look like? Because there, there is this natural battle, right? You have the Christian and then the opposing party, whether that be the, the Islamic or pagan belief or whatever other religions.
00:21:59
Speaker
And, uh, Matthew 5, 43 says, you have heard it said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. And so the only way to, the only way to,
00:22:11
Speaker
for us to handle it is to cross that line into the enemy territory and love them. And so, uh, the Islamic faith or the Muslim faith is to show love to those people. yes Um, is the only way that they're going to be able to see the name of Jesus Christ. And so go ahead. all the change it It just goes to prove that that scripture and Jesus flip everything upside That's exactly right. Everything. else If you have a feeling that you're going do something, think counterintuitive to that. And that's what Jesus wants you to do. And so we want to hate those who persecute us.
00:22:40
Speaker
And God's saying, hey, you're called to love, even the one that wants to kill you. Yeah. I think Romans 12 too. 12 specifically, but it speaks to ah what we're doing first. We have to be unified in the body of Christ first and foremost before we ever bless those who persecute us.
00:22:59
Speaker
ah Romans 12 later on will say that, but we have to be unified in the body of Christ before we can ever go out and start doing the right thing. Because I think Satan's devising a plan, how he can divide the church, how he can divide the body. Sometimes we get so caught up in...
00:23:15
Speaker
hey be ticked off at this person because they did you wrong and therefore we get the opportunity missed time and time again to reach this person who's just trying to figure out who do i worship i i know there's something but who do i worship because we're over here playing the little games that satan has caused us to think is important when in reality It's just the reality of this person has a different opinion than and this person. And I think you're talking like within the walls of the church. Within the walls the church. We spend much sideways energy. Yes. Worried about petty, stupid things. Local church, universal church. And there's people walking by outside the door who don't know Jesus. Yes. And so it's like taking that that that disunity in the church and letting go of the little things like wall color and yeah carpet color and the dumb things and focusing on the gospel of Jesus Christ and going out unified to love the people that are
Strategic Advice for Christians
00:24:07
Speaker
hating us. I think it's a staged process that God's trying to, you know, we use the word sanctification. God's just trying to build us up, strengthen us. And if we can't get it right, whenever it's supposedly someone who's in our same camp, How do we think we're going to get it right whenever that boss comes to the table and says, hey, you can't be talking like this. We're going have to let you go. That's a great point. So it's just one those things. So let's let's kind of wrap this up with some strategies, some things we need to be thinking about ah as followers of Jesus Christ. Number one, we've got to love the church.
00:24:36
Speaker
Got to love the church. And that's not the building. It's the people. um You can't walk up to Ridley Barron and say, I love you, but I hate your wife. Uh, cause we're not gonna be friends. Right. right I mean, know that's just not the way it works. You can't tell God, I love you, but i I just don't love your church. And because you love the church, your first desire should be to protect the unity of the church for its mission.
00:24:57
Speaker
Number two, you said it earlier. You got to stay in the word. You got to know the word. You got to be able to defend the word. The Bible tells us to be ready in season and out of season to give a reason for the hope that we have. Number three,
00:25:08
Speaker
Pray for those around you. One of the things you won't see, if you go back and read the passage that Kyle and I referenced here Matthew 10, you never see Jesus say, get an army together and go show them who's boss.
00:25:20
Speaker
he He says, when the time comes, I'll give you words to answer. ah elsewhere in these same sermons, Jesus says over and over again, pray for those who persecute you, bless those who come after you.
00:25:31
Speaker
and that's That's such an upside down kind of mentality, but it's something we have to do. And I think the fourth thing that's really important, and this is the one where I think many of us really drop the ball as much as anything is,
00:25:42
Speaker
be aware learn learn how to have conversations with people learn what it means when you talk about socialism socialism is not a good thing understand why we have differences between mormons and muslims and those kinds of things and i just because we're trying to pick a fight it's because we believe the truth is the truth and you can't have two truths there's only there's only one truth so you've got to be aware you got to be knowledgeable uh got to pray um And most of all, be be prepared for what's to come. The Bible was very clear, starting with Jesus, that it was always going to be this way.
00:26:14
Speaker
When you get even to Revelation, Revelation's even more clear that we will face a persecution because of the end of time, suffering that will come. And in Revelation, i think it's in Revelation, is Revelation 10 where he says, he no, Revelation 4, I think where he says, if I had not come and interceded, you would not have made it to the end. Mm-hmm.
00:26:33
Speaker
um So we do our best. We we intercede and and that kind of stuff. ah Man, we we could go on and on with this and we need to wrap it up. Love you guys. Appreciate you watching us. we we Again, we'd love to hear from you. If you've got thoughts about this or any other subject you want to hear, we want to jump into those things.
00:26:49
Speaker
ah Continue to share this with other people. We want greater awareness. That's the reason we started doing this. And if you want to be a part of a church that's pursuing these answers, looking for these truths and praying for those who are lost around us,
00:27:01
Speaker
We would love to have you at Grove Hill Church, 8, 930, and 11 o'clock on Sunday morning. Of course, you can like, click the the fan thing here, follow us, and be a part of our podcast every week. We'd love to have you back.
00:27:13
Speaker
We'll see you next week. Bye.