Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Dark Age: Sonic Month
360 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Adam and Satsunami take on Sonic's most infamous set of games from Heroes to Unleashed. Are these games really as bad as people say they are? Or is the infamy well deserved? Let's spin dash our way back to the past and find out!
For more Satsunami content, please click here!
For more Chatsunami content, please click here!
--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/chatsunami/message
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Special Episode
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another special episode of Chat Tsunami.
Sonic Month and Guest Introduction
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Sad Tsunami and joining me today in quite frankly what I hope is still my friend after this horrific experience is Adam. Adam, welcome back to the second episode of Sonic Month.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello, hello, good to be back. It certainly was a more rocky week of preparation this time round than last week, but still, still I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to get into the discussion. Well, it's good to have you back and I am glad that you didn't run away after the amount of preparation that you put into this
Gaming Experience and Humor
00:00:53
Speaker
episode. I would be damned if I'm not going to talk about some of these games that I've played.
00:00:58
Speaker
I'm not standard for not being able to relay my thoughts. So what you're saying is this like expedience didn't turn you into a Sonic 06 fan? This was my personal Vietnam, I think. Well, we're not even one minute in on already.
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah, excuse me, guys. No, you weren't there. You weren't there in Crisis City, man. Oh, don't even, don't even. We don't talk about Crisis City in the opinion. You wouldn't get me, like, struck for a content warning, bringing up Crisis City. All I can say is better watch out for that tornado. It's got a car. It's got several cars apart.
The Retro Age of Sonic
00:01:42
Speaker
So of course by that introduction you can tell we are of course talking about, well not just Sonic 06 of course, we are talking about a really subjective range of games. Last week we talked about the Retro Age of Sonic and how it grew to fame with its debut in 1991 and the Sega
00:02:01
Speaker
Mega Drive. It had four critically acclaimed titles, Sonic 1 through 3, and Knuckles of course. And it had Sonic CD as well. And then Adam, what happened?
Sonic's Awkward 3D Transition
00:02:13
Speaker
The Game Gear happened. No, we had a slightly awkward phase in the late 90s where they tried to experiment a bit with 3D and also a little bit with some of the extended universe and didn't work out the best, I think to say.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yes, of course. We had Sonic Extreme which was cancelled. We had Sonic 3D Blast which I still can't believe you played that. I know, I know. That's how dedicated I am to the course. I'm going to put myself through everything. Look Adam, I don't know how to break us through here but you're not going to win a Nobel Peace Prize with this podcast. I'm going to just shoot weight. The amount of suffering I've gone through. I'll get something. A Nobel Prize, a Pulitzer, something, an Academy Award. I'll think anything. So who's going to play you in the film then?
00:02:56
Speaker
myself. I'm the only one who can do it justice. Now I'm just imagining you in a sandwich suit. Twirling my literacy moustache. Oh of course. I keep forgetting you have a literacy moustache. Not in real life. I just want to point out to a listener. No you don't know, listeners don't know. I have a gloriously literacy moustache. Crisp. Crisp, crunchy and probably washed before being packaged.
00:03:25
Speaker
But yeah, it's safe to say that Sonic's transition into 3D was a bit turbulent, I wanna say. As we said, the very first proper game that we're gonna have other than of course 3D Blast was Sonic Extreme, which of course never saw the light of day. And then we had things like Sonic R, Sonic Fighters, featuring your boy Fang, the
00:03:47
Speaker
Bores, pours him out for Fang. Yeah, I actually saw a plush of him online today. What? Yep, there's a plush. How is it and how do I get it? I'll be adding it to my list for your birthday. I'll be like, happy birthday! And your partner will be like, yeah, never let that soon you're our home again. I don't care about you, you're gonna have to deal with Fang, he's a part of our lives now. It's who I am. It's my boy, my boyfriend.
00:04:17
Speaker
Look how they massacred my boy! So after that turbulent period, it's safe to say that Sonic was in good standing with the fanbase.
Success with Sonic Adventure
00:04:27
Speaker
It wasn't until 1998 that we got our first glimpse of really a proper Sonic in 3D, wasn't it, with the Sonic Adventure series. Yeah, when they finally put it together and were able to make it workable.
00:04:40
Speaker
3D Sonic game and Sonic Adventure and its sequel, Sonic Adventure 2 of course, are quite frankly held in really high esteem amongst the fanbase. Did you know that even in between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 there was Sonic Shuffle? Oh, was it that early? I didn't actually
00:04:58
Speaker
Apparently it was in between. So I had to get one of my friends who has of course been on the channel before. Yeah, he actually told me that it came out between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2. So that was between 1998 and 2000-2001. Sonic Adventure, both games, were pretty much Sega's swansong when it came to the console wars and them.
00:05:21
Speaker
being like a really prominent player in the console game because after the Dreamcast they just never, at least up until this point, they never really created another console after
Exploring Sonic's 'Dark Age'
00:05:33
Speaker
that. They hung up their hat, they put down their rings and they just said, I'm sorry, I failed you and then they just walked out into the sunset to which then they made Sonic 06 but we will get to that.
00:05:43
Speaker
There has been debate, so this is something we were discussing before we came on the show, but this idea of Sonic having a dark age is very subjective. You know, some people say, oh it started at Sonic Heroes, some say it was in 2005 with Shadow the Hedgehog. It's all over the place and
00:06:02
Speaker
it's quite hard to kind of gauge when it started. What we're going to be doing in this episode is, at the end of this month, we will be talking about the Sonic Adventure series. So just in case you guys were worried and thinking, oh god how dare they say it's Sonic Adventure's part of the Dark Age. We're not saying that, I love Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 and I know you've been playing through them recently. I have, I've completed Adventure 1 and I'm soon to start Adventure 2, which I'm very excited to start.
00:06:29
Speaker
I really can't wait for you to play it. I'm very, very excited. I need to get to City Escape. That's what I've been so excited for. I feel like my adventure for Sonic is building up to me playing City Escape. This is what it's leading to. Is this your character arc? This is exactly my character arc. You know, I'll play City Escape, I'll get my Fang plushy, and I'll just go from there. Is this you admitting that you are kind of falling slowly into the
Critiquing Sonic Heroes
00:06:53
Speaker
Sonic fandoms? I'm certainly falling into the Fangdom.
00:06:59
Speaker
I have a knack for puns. Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, no. Where's the stop button, please? Enough of this madness. Listen, if I encourage this, OK? If I encourage this. You're not going to weasel me out of this, OK? And on that note, shall we just jump into it? I have nothing. I don't know any other names from now on, Mal. I thought you were just going to scream, bean the dynamite. Diaper! I'm just going to...
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, we will be right back. See just after these messages until we can both compose ourselves. So don't go anywhere and we'll be right back. Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that talks about topics from gaming and films to streaming in general interest. Previously on Chatsunami, we discussed game of the decade, deadly premonition, the romantic thriller, bardemic and listen to us get all sappy as we discuss our top five Christmas films.
00:07:53
Speaker
If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can find us on Anchor, Spotify, YouTube and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:08:06
Speaker
We are Beer and Chill Podcast. Podcast where we review TV shows, games, movies and whatever else takes our fancy. So what are you waiting for? If you're a cool kid like us, you're gonna listen to the Beer and Chill Podcast. You can get it anywhere from Spotify all the way to your grandma's radio. My name is Jan. And I'm Craig DC. And we are Beer and Chill.
00:08:41
Speaker
Listen Adam, we really need to have a talk about this. I really think, oh god we're on. And we're back, hello. That was a joke for legal reasons. It was a half joke. It was a half joke. You've hit me a strongly worded email. On the written warning now. Yeah, I'll just have to put out a tweet and be like, does someone know how to fire someone who's not getting paid? How do you Google how to fire a bit of fire colours? No, how to fire a friend.
Challenges with Shadow the Hedgehog
00:09:08
Speaker
There's so many results, oh my god. So yeah, let's jump into the Dark Age quote-unquote of Sonic the Hedgehog. Out of curiosity, before you did your research for this episode, how much did you know about this period of Sonic?
00:09:23
Speaker
Well, I was saying this a little bit to you before the episode started. This was not so much in this period, but kind of post this period, post these particular games we're going to talk about, was where I sort of became more aware of Sonic and Sonic franchise. And it was kind of in this environment, kind of the post, I don't know what you call it, the post-Dark Age, you know, environment. But I feel like I learned a lot of the, what the kind of prevailing thoughts were on Sonic, which I don't think having, you know, delved into it now, I don't think are very fair at all.
00:09:52
Speaker
It was kind of the legacy of this period that I think I knew a bit more about than actually the period itself. I kind of knew some of these games by reputation without ever having played them or actually done any kind of research on them at all. After playing these games, how do you feel now?
00:10:08
Speaker
I can see why it gets cold the Dark Age sometimes, but I don't necessarily think that's completely fair. I do think that whenever you have a franchise that goes for as long as Sonic has, you're gonna have some bumps in the road, and granted some of these are pretty big.
00:10:25
Speaker
pretty big bumps that will wreck your car if you go over them, but still I think it's become extremely mythologised. I think more than perhaps is actually due to it. And I was actually quite surprised hearing you say that as, and again I'm not gatekeeping, but as like an outsider to the Sonic fandom and not grown
00:10:43
Speaker
up with it because and we will get into it but sonic bashing has almost become like a I don't want to say an identity but it has become a sort of it's like you know the memes that you get are not memes that's even going too far that's an insult to memes but it's like you know the jokes about like Mario eating mushrooms and Pokemon being all about animals fighting and 10 year olds catching up you know like the bare bones jokes that come on
00:11:11
Speaker
for these games. That's what it almost feels like with Sonic. It feels like it's kind of low-hanging fruit, that because in Right Full of Soul there are a good couple of games in this franchise that deserve the criticism and critique
00:11:27
Speaker
But to paint every other game, because this is something you brought up with me before we started the episode, but it's like, people kind of retroactively started hating Sonic after this period of time. And I have seen videos where it's like game journalists saying things like, oh Sonic was never good, Sonic isn't that great of a franchise,
00:11:47
Speaker
And I feel as if that's a severe discredit to what Sonic about up until this point. I'd say it's complete nonsense. To say it was never good is either lazy or being untruthful. I'm sorry to say because, granted, it might not be your thing. A lot of these games aren't my favourite genre. I'm not the biggest fan of platformers, 2D and 3D.
00:12:12
Speaker
But as I said last time, I really enjoyed playing some of the 2D platformers and I enjoyed Sonic Adventure and I enjoyed parts of these 3D ones. So it's just bizarre to me that this period seems to, as you say, retroactively tarnish the whole franchise, which a franchise that was one of the most popular gaming franchises probably of all time in the 90s. So I do find it absolutely bizarre what the legacy of this period
00:12:39
Speaker
it is quite reductive to kind of say you know oh Sonic fails and it's terrible overall because of like you could point to any game in this particular age, you could point to Shadow the Hedgehog for being confused and muddled, you could point to you know 06 for obvious reasons, you could like point to Sonic Unleashed because well you know that as well because of the split
00:13:02
Speaker
gameplay and everything, it feels as if it's a lot more complicated because going back to what we're seeing in our Retro Age episode, you know, Sonic was an absolute titan of the gaming sphere, Sega was on top of the world, and I have to admit, I think that's partly why they failed because they were sabotaging themselves.
00:13:23
Speaker
in a way. The American team and the Japanese team did not get along, they didn't communicate properly, there was a lot of internal strife there and by the time the adventure series rolled around, Sega was literally trying to hold on to the console market and it just was not happening. We had the Sega Saturn, which were both established. We have never seen a Sega Saturn in real life.
00:13:50
Speaker
I've never seen one. I've got a Dreamcast, which technically it's my brother's but don't tell him that. That was the final console that they brought out, and don't get me wrong, the Dreamcast is like a console in itself. It's very revolutionary, you know, it had internet, it had connectable, it had
00:14:06
Speaker
kind of what it was but it was like interactive memory cards where it's like you could transfer like you know the chow's and so on that you could like transfer them to your like memory card and play with them like Tamagotchi's and things. It was very ahead of its time and it is just a shame that you know it didn't do as well.
00:14:25
Speaker
So there's a lot in that kind of regard. You know, you could say it's because of the company, it's because of other things. And you know, as we said, Sonic was very much an independent icon. But yeah, around 2001, Sonic became part of the Nintendo family.
00:14:42
Speaker
as it were, by becoming... I think Sonic Adventure 2 was the very first game that became cross-platform. So it began in the Dreamcast and then it went to the Nintendo GameCube, which almost felt like gaming sacrilege. You know, you had this titan who was like, oh, Sonic's the anti-Mario, he's different and everything, and then all of a sudden he's on a Nintendo console. That must have blown some die-hard fans' minds at the time.
00:15:08
Speaker
It's absolutely crazy to think about. I was too young and also too ignorant of the gaming market and everything to realise how big a deal this was, but I'm just going to say that I don't think we'll ever see anything like this again. Because if you look at the, and maybe this is me being slightly nostalgic for the Sega Nintendo rivalry,
00:15:28
Speaker
which I look fondly back on, especially now when it's Xbox and PlayStation. It's just a bunch of fanboys arguing about which console is better ray tracing. This game got 83 on Metacritic and this one got 82. I don't know, there's something about the Sega Nintendo console rivalry that just seems so epic and the fact that it was the two titans just slugging it out. But now, especially since I think both Microsoft and Sony are just too big to fail in a way,
00:15:52
Speaker
I don't think we're ever going to likely see Master Chief appear on the PlayStation, or I don't know, Nathan Drake come on down. I mean, you never know what happened with Game Pass. Game Pass might end up going to different things, but even then that doesn't, that won't feel, I don't think, as like, kind of revolutionary and kind of earth-shaking as it must have felt when Sonic went onto a Nintendo console. I mean, the courses we've got is like Master Chief and Fortnite. That's true, I suppose.
00:16:15
Speaker
I do see what you mean like you wouldn't really expect Master Chief to be in the PlayStation 4 and as you said Nathan Drake would not certainly not be appearing on the Xbox. For any gaming journalists out there please feel free to quote this you know just in case 2020 rolls around and I don't know Microsoft have like sold all their supercomputers and Beowo is now back under Bungie you know probably never gonna happen but you know what I mean you're totally right though it seemed like something that was just so big
00:16:44
Speaker
and again we were both too young to kind of like appreciate the impact of that but I remember the first time I got Sonic Adventure 2 and as I said in the last episode I was out with my mum shopping and I came across this game and I remember being so blown away because I didn't really keep up with the gaming news because obviously the internet wasn't as big a thing you know when we were younger
00:17:06
Speaker
we had dial-up internet for the youngins in the shot there. Dial-up internet is, if you've heard of purgatory, it's like that. But with the internet, it was very slow internet. If you lifted up the landline for when it would cut out the internet, it was horrific. So when I saw that Sonic had a Sonic adventure too, I was like, oh my gosh, because I was a child.
00:17:29
Speaker
I was like oh my gosh can I get it and my mum got it for me and I remember being really annoyed because the night I got it I went to play it and one of my friends came over from school and I was like but I want to play Sonic Adventure 2, go away. I absolutely loved it and then I went back later and got, not the same day but you know later on and I ended up getting Sonic Adventure 1 for the GameCube, loved both of them ever since.
00:17:54
Speaker
I actually never heard about heroes. This sounds weird, you know, because I am a self-proclaimed Sonic fan, but I never really kept up with the news as much, because as I said, it was like a different time. It was like you had to keep up with the gaming news through like magazines and things like that. You couldn't really like hop on the internet the same way as we do nowadays, like you could just go on Twitter and just find what's happening.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, so I remember I was in Blockbuster and I saw Sonic Heroes. Oh, sorry. Yeah, for the youngins out there, Blockbuster is a… it's like a physical Netflix. I'm gonna leave it at that. It's like a physical Netflix, but it used to sell or rather rent games as well. And I remember seeing Sonic Heroes and I was like,
00:18:37
Speaker
huh, I didn't know they made another game. So I was like okay. So I hired it and this is probably the first game of the series where I felt uneasy about the franchise. Maybe this is just, this speaks to me as a child. I really didn't like Sonic Heroes. Is he objectively? It's okay. I didn't like the models. I thought the models were far too shiny. I thought Sonic and all the speed characters they controlled like
00:19:04
Speaker
buttery ice, you know? Like you were running across buttery ice. I was like, no, I do not like this. I thought the story was very childish and, again, that it's like a Sonic game, so it's obviously for kids. But considering Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 had relatively serious stories, you know, you had Eggman pretty much firing a missile into the middle of Station Square. You had him threatening an eight-year-old fox boy by saying, I'll make mincemeat out of you. That's still a cool line, by the way.
00:19:34
Speaker
it's very good. But with Adventure 2, you know, you had a young girl getting shot in the face, you had, you know, like the ultimate life form, you had, you know, you had all these like really serious aspects of a story, so I was expecting them to carry over like the kind of same tone of these games, and then when Sonic Heroes came out, it was just like a very generic, oh let's stop Eggman, and this was the first time I felt as if the levels were
00:20:00
Speaker
far too long. Sonic should be running from point A to point B very fast. If you want to get there from point A to B, you should have the first couple of levels, maybe like 2-3 minutes max. The maximum I think a Sonic level should be is about
00:20:15
Speaker
I mean, maybe five minutes, even 10, 10 at a push, but some of these levels were so, so long and they were like objective based with like team chaotics and things. But I'm quite curious to hear what you have to say about this particular game, because I know you haven't really played much of this game, but this was one of the games where Sonic got criticized for having too many of these friends in the game. I mean, I've not played, I've not played any of this game, but I did do a little bit of research on it and watched
00:20:44
Speaker
footage of it and everything I think you kind of filled me in on it first and when you said there was like 12 playable characters I instantly was like my god that is far too many I was kind of imagining I thought originally that each of the 12 had their own story and I was like oh that sounds like a hefty amount of too much content for a Sonic game but then when I saw it was you know the teams of three and stuff I was like huh that's that's actually quite interesting concept and I think again having not played it perhaps I look at it a bit more favorably
00:21:14
Speaker
Because I think that actually sounds like quite an interesting concept and I like the fact that they kind of have to work together. It sounds interesting and you've got your speed, you've got your speed, your flight and your power characters and you need to use them all to defeat enemies and stuff. I'm like that sounds kind of quite interesting but I do understand that in the execution it doesn't always work that well.
00:21:33
Speaker
as you say, with a kind of buttery ice feel to playing a lot of the characters. And I know there's a lot of people saying that, especially when they're talking about the levels, as you're saying, is it not like for Team Rose? The missions are ridiculously short, but then you get to Team Dark, and as you say, it's ridiculously long, trying to get your way through the gauntlets of enemies and everything.
00:21:53
Speaker
from like the outside and not having played it at all it looks kind of cool it looks wild both in a good way in a bad way I don't again I think if I played it I'd probably have a much different opinion and maybe I would lose a lot of the kind of fondness I look at it with but I don't know just just from the outside I'm like it just looks like something quite different and I'm like oh I kind of I kind of like the idea
00:22:15
Speaker
Well, I think the problem with this game, as you brought up before, is repetition. Because, let's face it, you've got Sonic Team, who are the base team that you play through first usually, and their level's a kingdom mid to win, but
00:22:30
Speaker
Then you've got Team Darku, as you said, they have the longer levels, the levels that are a lot harder to play. Then you've got Team Rose, who are the easy team, which seems weird to have an easy team as like Choice 3. Then you've got Team Chaotix, and Team Chaotix are more like objective based, so they'll play like, you know, find the five crabs in Seaside Hill, or find the
00:22:55
Speaker
God, I can't remember. There was one where it was like, extinguish 30 or 40 torches in Mystic Mansion and you were like, ahh. And I remember I played this in stream, okay, and I missed one. So I had to go through the whole level again.
00:23:11
Speaker
god i had to go to the very end just to get this one and i was oh i was so done with it it was just tiring but what makes it worse is they reintroduce special stages so do you remember the special stages and the originals oh yeah yeah
00:23:28
Speaker
Well in this one I think it's very similar to, I want to say the Sonic 2 ones, we are running down like the tunnel. Oh yeah that is the Sonic 2 ones isn't it? Yeah and it's horrific because at least for me anyway I don't know if I'm playing it wrong but every time I sped up too fast it's like they would kind of run halfway up the tube but then they would get caught in something and then fall down again and lose all their momentum. They're like
00:23:54
Speaker
Well, what's the point? And that is the only way you can get Chaos Emeralds, might I point out? Oh really, so you have to do that, oh jeez. Yeah, so you have to play through the second act of every level through hundreds of times just to get the Chaos Emeralds. And the easiest way to do this is by playing through Team Rose's levels because they're the shortest. They have this
00:24:18
Speaker
Stupid mechanic, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go off on the rant here. They have this stupid mechanic where you find like a cage with a key in it. So you use a power character, you bash the cage open, you get the key, well done champ, we're gonna complete this level. Only you look at the timing, you think, huh, there's a lot of time left in this level. And if you get hit once by an enemy, and I mean if he brushes against your rash cheek once, you lose that key. There's no way of getting it back.
00:24:47
Speaker
that's terrible, that is a terrible, having not played it I could instantly tell you that is a terrible mechanic. And that is, oh it is awful. And I don't know, for me personally, and I know I don't want to like criticise the hard work of the developers here, but it just feels like such a lazy port. Like the only reason I say that is because obviously they wanted it cross compatible with like, you know, they wanted it on the PlayStation 2, they wanted it on the Xbox, the GameCube,
00:25:15
Speaker
and apparently the PlayStation 2 version is terrible because apparently if you're fighting a boss then one of the letters of his name stays on the screen. I don't know if that's for all the bosses but it's for a couple of them and you're like, this is ridiculous. As I said, I don't like the models. They feel very shiny and plastic in it. You know, see compared to what we had before in Sonic Adventure, it was the perfect designs.
00:25:42
Speaker
You know, Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2, he was so expressive and you could tell the emotions the characters were going through. Same with, you know, even though Sonic Adventure had kind of janky, you know, animation, you could still tell what was going on. But for Sonic Heroes, I just didn't feel that. And that kind of leads me on to my second point. Why the hell did they use the same character models for Shadow the Hedgehog?
00:26:03
Speaker
No, Adam, I'm asking you why? I don't know. Why? I don't know, man, okay? Should have been my boyfriend, but anyway. I should have been, nah, with his pop gun. But yeah, that was the kind of period where I did
00:26:18
Speaker
complete it by the way in case anyone's thinking oh you didn't complete it so it's like yes I did, I completed it, I took down Metal Overlord and I'm still pissed at the ending because and this is a very minor mip pic but the very end you have to fight Metal Overlord with all the different teams and then once you go through that you get the final fight you know the super form fight so for Sonic Adventure it was you versus Perfect Chaos, for Sonic Adventure 2 it was Sonic and Shadow versus the Final Hazard, for this one it was Sonic
00:26:47
Speaker
Tails and Knuckles against the Metal Overlord. Can I just say Sonic gets a Superform but the other two don't. I don't know why. They get like bubbles of energy but they don't actually get their own Superform and I don't know if that's like a legal thing. I don't know if that's like a...
00:27:06
Speaker
I actually think, actually thinking back on it, I think that was one of the stipulations in the comics, that only Sonic could go super, but I don't know if that means like Sonic only in that or that applied to the comics. I think that actually has a stipulation, which I'm like, I actually don't know if that was when he was causing a rocket, but more of a ruckus than usual. Also, can I just say I'm so proud of you for bringing in Ken Page. I listen, I pick things up. I'm like, oh my god, he does listen to my rants.
00:27:38
Speaker
Just put up on your wall Ken Bender as well. I will get to him, don't you worry. But of course, speaking of bad fanfiction, that of course leads us onto Shadow the Hedgehog. And you did play this game, so I want to hear your truth. This is time for you to set the record straight.
00:27:54
Speaker
I did play this game, your honor. I played the PS2 version, which I, from what I understand, I think the PS2 got a lot of the worst, maybe the PlayStation franchise in general, got the worst versions of all of these Sonic games from this era. So yeah, this was the game that I won the games I was most excited to try. I really wanted to play Shadow because, again, I only knew it by legend. It was the kind of the outlier, in a way, from the Sonic franchise, the one that was quite different totally, and I suppose a bit mechanically.
00:28:22
Speaker
So I was very excited to try it and all that enthusiasm very quickly drained away. It was a chore. I didn't do all the 10 different endings but I managed to get one ending in the game and I honestly found that a struggle. I found this one a real struggle to play.
00:28:39
Speaker
I like a lot of the ideas that are there. I like the fact that, you know, there is that they obviously put a lot of content into this and the fact that there are so many different endings and, you know, each level has usually three different objectives for you to complete and you can only complete like one objective and that'll put you on the different path.
00:28:56
Speaker
So I like that it does give some replayability. There is a lot to the game. You're going to get a lot of bang for your buck. It's just a shame that the bang is so mechanically awful. It was the mechanics of this game. I always felt like I was in combat with fighting with the controls for the camera, for controlling shadow, for attacking. It just was a struggle. And there was a point when I was playing the last level of my thing, which is, oh my God, I forgot the name of it now.
00:29:25
Speaker
It takes place in the arc and it's basically when the arc is falling apart and you have to jump from all these floating platforms and that was absolutely bringing my piss to a boil. For all the fact that the camera kept getting caught on things, I couldn't see where I was jumping and I had to make some blind jumps.
00:29:41
Speaker
And then I felt like Shadow would just go spinning. I felt every time there was a 15% chance any time we did a homing attack with Shadow that it would send him flying off the edge of the stage point. So it was just such a, I just found it so frustrating to play. And the story was honestly like, was just all over the place for me. And I get that. I know that's the criticism of the game that a lot of stuff doesn't hold together until you kind of complete all the different 10 endings and then it kind of brings it together.
00:30:06
Speaker
But I was joking to you where I had this random scene towards the end where one of the main antagonists showed up who I hadn't had any contact with for the whole game and was like, I'm going to get vengeance on you. I was just like, dude, I have no idea. I barely know who you are. I barely know why you want vengeance on me. I don't understand. But I did have to laugh at some of that.
00:30:24
Speaker
So again, I found it frustrating to play and then I didn't, I didn't, the story didn't hook me enough to make me want to explore more of it. So yeah, like it just, yeah. This is the only Sonic game that I've played so far that I can say I didn't have any fun with. Some of the early levels I thought were tolerable, but I wasn't having fun. And you know, I think that's maybe the real mark against Shadow. I just had no fun playing this game at all.
00:30:48
Speaker
Now I've got nothing to say to that, I agree. Moving on, suddenly I'm like… I wanna flashback a little, just to kinda contextualise what Shadow kinda represented at that point in the franchise. Cos seeing no one state, I feel as if nowadays, and trust me you'll probably get a sense of that,
00:31:07
Speaker
later on when you play the later games when you look into it more. But Shadow now a days is looked on as like this very AG and, I mean don't get me wrong, obviously Shadow the Hedgehog of the game does not do many favours by having him holding a gun in front of an explosion and you're like,
00:31:25
Speaker
When Shadow was introduced, and again I'm not saying it's like Shakespearean writing or anything before I go into this rant, I'm not saying like oh he's one of the best and well-written characters and the whole of gaming, he's not, you know, it's a Sonic the Hedgehog game, come on, have a word with yourself.
00:31:41
Speaker
But at the same time, Shadow was a fan favourite from day one when Sonic Adventure 2 came out. Shadow was like the anti-Sonic and he had this whole tragic backstory where he basically had to witness his best friend, his only friend on the Ark, which is a space colony. But yeah, Sonic fans will know.
00:32:02
Speaker
the wiki, trust me, but Shadow lived on the space station alone, he lived with his friend Miria and then he had to watch helplessly as Miria was ripped away from him, literally shot in the face. Or not in the face, I say that as a joke, she wasn't really, she was shot.
00:32:20
Speaker
It might as well be, because considering the art direction in both Sonic Adventure 2 and Tim Shadow the Hedgehog for her, she looks like an alien. I'm sorry, she looks like one of the Black Arms, but I digress. I was sure that Maria wasn't supposed to be the alternate life form here.
00:32:39
Speaker
Anyway, I digress. So, Shadow was sent to Earth because of Maria. Maria's last act before she died was pushing that big old red button to get him away, and then Shadow's captured for, I think it's 50 years to say? And then, you know, he comes back again and he doesn't really have a good memory, which seems to be the only consistent thing about his character. And he thinks about casting vengeance on the whole of humanity for what they've done to him. And of course that's only kind of
00:33:09
Speaker
reinforced by his creator, Gerald Robotnik being like this mad scientist who wants to crash the space colony into the air to kill everyone. Don't worry, I'll get on to that point. But, you know, it was like, eventually at the end, you see him have like a change of heart, he hears like another character say, oh, like, Maria's final words as well. You know, it's coincidence, but come on, again, it's on the game.
00:33:32
Speaker
But he hears those words and he remembers Maria's last words and that spurs him to become a hero in the end. He risks his life and he falls to the earth and everything and in his final act, instead of exacting vengeance and killing everyone, he's just completely saved everyone. Even though throughout the game he's just filled with all this kind of hatred and rage and just utter bitterness towards everyone he comes across, he still becomes a hero and that kind of is reflected in the main song of Sonic.
00:34:01
Speaker
Adventure 2 Live and Learn, which, have you heard that song yet? I think I might have heard bits of it. Again, I can't call it to mind, but I think I would probably know if I heard it. It's not a banger, first of all, but it's kind of the same being as Open Your Heart, you know, the final song in Sonic Adventure. Oh yeah. Yeah, there's like a huge debate about which one is better, but come on guys, it's Live and Learn. For legal reasons, that's a joke. But after that, she had a life such an impact
00:34:30
Speaker
And again, sorry, going back to the song point, in the live and learn lyrics, you know, it's all kind of cheesy pop and everything and it's like living and learning as the title suggests, but it kind of reflects shadows like character development. And as I said, in that final act, he just absolutely gets killed off. And it's almost a parallel to, do you remember E101, Gammas story? Or sorry, E102, sorry. I call myself a sodic man.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, I remember cameras, yeah. Yeah, where he kind of sacrifices himself to, you know, freeze brothers and everything and only, obviously like Shadow made a bit of a bigger impact but then I remember reading the, like I had no idea Shadow was back for Sonic Heroes and I remember reading the booklet and it was like, oh, Shadow's back and I was like, huh?
00:35:20
Speaker
It's like, oh, Andy's got amnesia. He has no idea who he is. And I'm like, uh-huh. And even in the game, they don't really bring it up. They're just like, oh, I thought you were dead. Nope. Neat. And that's it. They kind of just move on. It's like, oh, OK. Now, obviously, they brought him back because he was a popular character. But
00:35:38
Speaker
ever since then he's been portrayed as this very edgy don't talk to me Lincoln Park Nirvana listening age ward and you're like that's not shadows character at all and it's sad because it's Sega that are making those decisions you know I can't say like oh it's what the fans want if that technically it's what the fans wanted but as another story they don't know what they're
00:36:00
Speaker
one though. They get it, like, saying you shouldn't listen to children. Don't listen to fans, it's just general advice to anybody. Fans don't make the best decisions. But yeah, long story short, they did. And they gave him his own spin-off game where he was a gun-toting alien killing.
00:36:21
Speaker
quote-unquote badass. And don't get me wrong, I remember at the time being very excited to play this game, because I really liked the character of Shadow the Hedgehog, but when I played it, I was like... and this was the one I really struggled through. I was like, I completed it again. I got all 10 endings. Shout out to Lost and Packed. I hope it dies in the fire of Hell. Terrible level. You know, like, there was a lot of horrible, horrible stuff in that. And the
00:36:47
Speaker
thing that gets me the most is there are absolute nuggets of good ideas in there but it just comes across as a fanfiction. You know, you've got Shadow who was created by aliens. This is the worst one but they tried to retcon Gerald Robotnik
00:37:02
Speaker
as being the savior of humanity, and I'm like, I'm sorry. No, I played through Sonic Adventure 2. It took me years to get past the bio lizard, okay? You know, I did not defeat the final hazard just for you to like gaslight me and say, oh no, Gerald Robotnik was a hero. He was trying to stop the aliens. It's like he shoved a space station up the ass of a lizard and tried to crash it into the air. Does that sound like a rational Nobel Prize winning match?
00:37:30
Speaker
Maybe he was trying to save the earth by destroying it. Don't you start. Don't you take this. It got me because at the very end there is a literal cutscene where it's the president, the president of what? I don't know. The president of the Federation of Nations or United Federation? I don't know. They're never clear on what the country is. It's like not America, okay? It's not America. But the president says, oh,
00:37:58
Speaker
Maybe we were wrong about Professor Gerald. Let's honour him and work towards a peaceful and prosperous future. And it's like, this is literally your government organisation, G.U.N. or gun or whatever you want to call yourselves. You stormed a space station, shot a child in the face and put a hedgehog in the fucking freezer. What is your issue?
00:38:21
Speaker
Are you trying to get re-elected Mr President? Is that why you have a picture of Sonic and Shadow on your desk? What is your deal? Do you want to talk about the picture? The picture was the lone bright spot in my playthrough when I cut to. I think I only had one scene in my playthrough with the President of the United Federation of
00:38:39
Speaker
of federating stuff. And it cut to his desk, and he was talking the phone number, and then it cut to his desk. And there's a picture of Sonic and Shadow outside the not White House, but maybe the White House, wherever it is. And it's just great. Sonic slayers is like, yeah, doing it. And Shadow's doing the classic with his back half turned to the camera. And I remember you being like, that has made my day seeing this photograph the president has. And then you've been like, well, let me tell you that photo cannot have taken place. And I'm like, I love it even more.
00:39:09
Speaker
Honestly, any Sonic fans out there, please tell me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think there's a possible way that photo could have been taken. Maybe it was taken in between Heroes and Shadow, but if so, what happened? What did the President
00:39:24
Speaker
phone up Sonic and Shadow because there was 12 characters in that damn game. I know. I completed the damn game. Let me get this straight. So is, you know, is this president pro hedgehog? Is he anti-hedgehog? You know, what about Amy? Amy's a hedgehog. Was she not invited? Was he stance-on big? He's anti-engineers. Yeah. Is this Ken Penders?
00:39:48
Speaker
Oh my god, I love it.
Shadow's Character Arc
00:39:49
Speaker
President Penders. Did you say President Penders? I did indeed. 2024. Oh, Jesus. Aww. You know what, I'm gonna move on quickly to the gameplay. But yeah, long story short, as you said, there's nothing I can really add. The gameplay's slippery, the models are ugly as hell, but a game that's supposed to be egg-ready, I must explore my past.
00:40:12
Speaker
You know, that kind of thing. Why would you use plasticine shiny models? I can't take it seriously. I mean, it's a hedgehog with a gun. I'm obviously not taking it seriously. But more so, if you're gonna get me invested in the story, why do they look like that? Why is Shadow part alien? Why? Why is he part alien? Why? Why anything? Why anything in this game, really?
00:40:32
Speaker
That brings me to my next thing. Well, two things before we move on to the infamy. That is, you know what's coming to the next one. The fact is that, again, Gerald Robotnik made Shadow because he plays the deal with Black doing blah blah blah and 50 years ago it would come back blah blah blah blah. But now, let me ask you something.
00:40:52
Speaker
Where does the bio-lizard fit into all this? Because the bio-lizard is supposed to be the ultimate life-around prototype, and it is a giant lizard, and I'm not exaggerating, I'm not making that up. Please look up bio-lizard. Trust me, I have cried a million tears just trying to get by that damn thing. It's what they could major to. Did he try to make a giant lizard? And then he was like, you know, I didn't think I should make a hedgehog, but these aliens made a damn compelling point.
00:41:22
Speaker
Fair of PowerPoint. And there's also rumors, and I don't know if this is because I think they brought this up in the comics, but for Maria, again, I don't know where this is confirmed, but it's implied that Maria, and this is kind of sensitive territory here, but Maria has a immunity disorder that they call NIDS instead of the other acronym that you're thinking of right now.
00:41:48
Speaker
So that was supposed to be the thing he was trying to cure. Obviously they never bring it up in the game, because let's face it, that's not going to be something you're slapping on the front of a shadow day job box. Wild territory, let's see what we're going into in this era.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, apparently there's only two characters with this disease. It was Maria Robotnik and it was some, I don't know, some freedom fighter in the comics, I think. And yeah, it just seems very, very weird. But I'll go back to the 10 endings or the 50 endings, whatever you want to say. The endings are horrific.
00:42:24
Speaker
They're all over the place. You've got one with shadows and androids, which I hate because that's a neutral ending and that's probably going to be the first ending you're ever going to get. And you have to fight against these low polygon shadow clones and it's like, no, come on guys, come on, have a, again, have a work with yourselves. What are you doing here?
00:42:42
Speaker
and you get one where Shadow actually contemplates his existence, and it's very depressing. You know, there's a scene where he beats Black Doom with Victor the Crocodile, of all people. Trust me, I'll get to it in a minute, Adam, hold your horses. And he has this very emotional speech where he's like, I'm Shadow, and this is like probably as close as I can get, but it says something along the lines of, I'm Shadow the Hedgehog,
00:43:05
Speaker
a research experiment gone horribly wrong and he kind of says like I shouldn't even exist in things. That implies something a lot more sinister. I don't know how you feel about that but it implies something a lot more
00:43:19
Speaker
kind of sinister that I mean quite uncomfortable yeah and you know for a game like shadow the hedgehog it's like wow this is this could be something that you know if they're gonna explore it they shouldn't spend like two minutes at the end of the goddamn game but what makes it insulting and again I know it's a children's game but what makes it insulting is they had to put vector the goddamn crocodile beside him who sounds like this and you're like
00:43:45
Speaker
so sorry go on oh were you gonna say something there sorry i was just sorry i'm just contemplating i'm just thinking what have you traveled back to 1992 or 1993 and all the kids who's like playing sonic or sonic 2 like this really colorful game about this hedgehog that you know frees captured animals and stuff and you're like here
00:44:07
Speaker
Just you wait over a decade, ten years later, just you wait to see where this game series has gone. It's so funny, and I don't want to directly compare Sonic to Mario, because as much as they get compared, they are quite different games. I don't think it's always fair to directly compare them.
00:44:27
Speaker
Mario has always stayed kind of true to that original format, you know, it's never, and we've talked about him basically being like, he's more a brand than he is really a developed character, while Sonic is much more a developed character. But, you know, the Mario games have always had very simple stories that always seem to revolve around Mario rescuing Peach and stuff, and that's been the same though, since his debut. It's just so, so funny that Sonic went off and really, that Sega really kind of dug into the quote-unquote cinematic
00:44:54
Speaker
experience and really tried to have these kind of like vast stories with all the with like serious issues and you know well it's not like serious issues but you know like kind of skating next to kind of serious issues and sort of world-ending consequences it's just i just i just find it sort of funny the direction they went with it
00:45:10
Speaker
Because on the one hand, and maybe this says more about me than, you know, the games themselves, but I actually didn't mind when they tried that. Because if there's one thing I do like about Sonic is the fact that they do go into kind of new territory with their games. It's the fact they try new things. And, you know, if one thing doesn't work, they'll say, OK, we'll do this or we'll do that.
00:45:31
Speaker
they had Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, which were both such good games. Sonic Heroes, as much as I don't like it and it's got some terrible gameplay flaws, at least it was a playable game. I feel as if Shadow the Hedgehog was the kind of
00:45:51
Speaker
tentative camel backbreaker, you know? It was the one that it was like, people were like, really? Shadow the Hedgehog? This formerly deeply written character that just, yeah, they were like, oh yeah, he's gonna be like edgy with a gun now. It's weird to say, but somehow Sonic 06 actually got his character done better in that than Shadow the Hedgehog itself.
00:46:15
Speaker
Exactly. It's just a mess. It's a mess from start to finish. And honestly, this could be its own episode, but basically ends with him blowing up the comet and blowing up Black Doom. Which, fun fact, apparently Black Doom is listed as one of the characters that should not be used in the comics.
00:46:34
Speaker
I have no idea why, but before we move on to the next game, is there any closing points you want to say to Shadow the Hedgehog? Just disappointing on every level, this game. And it's not like I expected this to be an amazing game. I knew reputation it wasn't a good game, but I thought I would at least find some kind of fun with it, and I just died. There was no fun to be had. It was a bleak landscape, and yeah, I was very disappointed by it.
00:47:01
Speaker
As someone who has completed it, I can 100% agree. The fact you have to play with Stopolis over and over again 10 times just to get 10 different endings is just ridiculous. I can see what they were trying to go for, but after Sonic Heroes it was clearly established as an anti-hero at most. And then all of a sudden they're saying things like, is he friend or is he foe?
00:47:25
Speaker
That is the thing as well, he's clearly funny, he's clearly anti-hero at the most. And one thing I just want to quickly point out just before we move on to Sonic 06, is the fact that we get all of our characterisation of Shadow based on the first scene. I don't know if you've noticed this when you're bitted up the game, but it's like Shadow's standing on this hill and he's like, why can't I remember anything? You know, and you get the scene of Maria getting shot and he's like, oh, group
00:47:50
Speaker
a minute. Then all of a sudden aliens attack and Shadow says the most deviant art fan fiction line I've ever heard in my life. Where he goes, I don't have time for these humans. Or something, you're like, what? What? Ah? And then it's like, oh yeah, he has to collect the Chaos Emeralds and ugh, just, it's dumb.
00:48:08
Speaker
it doesn't hold me ever at all. It really just feels like it's been duct taped together and the duct tape is fraying. It really does. And speaking of game sale together by duct tape, Sonic 06. So basically I'll keep my opinion short on Sonic 06, but if you want to hear my full opinions we do have an episode where I talk to one of my friends Super Shadow 271 and we went for a good two hours on this game.
00:48:34
Speaker
I really, really could have said that one. Oh thank you. It was a long dissection. I have to say it was a long one. But yeah, I'm going to turn it on you because Adam, you know that this game is like the Superman 64 of this franchise. It is considered one of the worst video games of all time. So you went out and you actually bought a copy like the mad lad you are. I used my own money.
00:48:57
Speaker
purchased a copy from my 360 because this is one of these games that Sega has delisted quite a few of these games from this period so you can't play them on modern systems you know so you need to get your old hardware out and yep so I use my own money I purchased a copy I waited eagerly by my my letterbox for it to arrive and it eventually did and so roughly roughly the story I get I didn't for nautical sex is quite a big game and I didn't come close to finishing to finishing it at all
00:49:26
Speaker
But the story roughly revolves around this place called Soliana and its ruler Princess Elise. Dr. Eggman shows up during this festival and kidnaps Elise and he says he's going to unleash the flames of disaster and Sonic is there to try and rescue the princess and stop Eggman from releasing whatever the flames of disaster are. And so the game is divided into three story sections. You have Sonic's story, you've got Shadow's story, and then there was a new character for this game called Silver.
00:49:56
Speaker
and you've got his story. So I played most, well I didn't play most of it, but I played mostly Sonic's story. I got about just under halfway through and I played a little bit of Shadow and Silver's. What I'll say about this game, Sonic games for the most part have actually really strong openings. I tend to find certainly the ones that I've played that usually it's either the best level in the game is right at the beginning or else it's very frenetic and fast and action packed and it's good fun and you're like zipping around and everything.
00:50:25
Speaker
Sonic 06 has certainly the worst opening of any Sonic game I've played so far. I think it might also have one of the worst openings of any game I've played that I can think of, certainly. So there's quite an impressive CG cutscene beforehand, that's all fine. But then the game, rather than, you know, so basically the kind of CG cutscene ends with Eggman like escaping with Elise, and you're like, alright, we're gonna enter right into like a level and you know, Sonic's gonna be chasing after it. But no, it like cuts to the next day.
00:50:49
Speaker
and Sonic is dumped into Soliano, which is a kind of open world location, and you then have to try and figure out what the hell you need to do to progress the story, and you need to talk to some people, and you need to start by playing a side mission and getting enough money to earn these special boots, sorry, special shoes that you then can, and then you need to earn the light dash.
00:51:08
Speaker
which is a kind of move quite famous in the Sonic games. So eventually you'll do all that and then you get into the first level and so it's quite like you're like oh god I just want to like play the game and then I go into the first level and oh my god the mechanics the mechanics came back with a vengeance here I lost all my lives instantly in the first level I was so frustrated I found myself I found Sonic
00:51:26
Speaker
clipping over, clipping off the edge of things. There's one section at the end of the first level, which is called Wave Ocean, which is like a proper speed scene where Sonic is basically continuously run and you've got to kind of direct him around obstacles. And this just absolutely messed me up. I couldn't, there's one bit earlier we have to run under a pier and I could not for the life of me for ages figure out what the hell I need to do to get him to avoid the supports of the pillar. I just kept hitting objects. I got so frustrated.
00:51:51
Speaker
and I eventually pushed through and I completed the level and then went to the next stage which was a boss fight against this thing called Egg Cerberus which is this kind of big robot dog which only has one head which annoyed me because Cerberus the mythical beast has three heads but you know Eggman's clearly not a student of antiquity and so basically you need to like get to the head of this beast to try and control it and get to run into walls and things like that
00:52:13
Speaker
It's simple enough to do, but I could not figure out how the hell you were supposed to control it. He didn't seem to have any control over the kind of robot dog when you got hold of it, and it was just, again, another exercise in frustration, and I was getting so angry playing it, and I think I was messaging you at the time, being like, I'm not enjoying this at all. Then I got to the next level where it's called Dusty Desert, where Sonic has to escape with Elise. Again, this is where my frustration all came to a boil, and
00:52:40
Speaker
I kept dying in the level and I remember message you being like, nope, I'm done with this. I hate this game. I hate it so much. I'm not playing anymore. I'm so angry. And so I went away. I didn't play it for the rest of the day. I cooled off and I go back and play a bit more the next day. And so I went back to it, loaded up the dusty desert again.
00:52:56
Speaker
I actually managed to get through it fairly easily level and then played some more levels and I actually started having a bit of fun, I'm going to be honest. I'm glad I went back to it. I kind of got into it. I kind of got a bit more au fait with the controls for Sonic and I felt like I was able to do more stuff and I didn't find any really frustrating levels. There was a snowboarding bit earlier than one, which I found a bit frustrating because I found it very difficult to control. But after that, I got through and I was like, okay, no, I got to the point where I got to unlock some of the other stories.
00:53:22
Speaker
Now I got to the famed Crisis City level, where Sonic basically gets sent into the future by Eggman, into this destroyed city. And on the one hand, the level looks really cool, and I think it has some really cool sections in it. But again, I found it a very frustrating experience to play. I just scraped for it, and I thought, you know what? I'm going to, I'm calling it here with Sonic the Rev and lock Shadow and Silver, and I don't think I can play any more of this right now, because I can feel my frustration coming back. So I then loaded up Shadow's story. Shadow's story, I think, starts technically before
00:53:49
Speaker
You might be able to tell me about Roland's, but I think his start is technically before Sonic's. And he starts off, you play a lot of the kind of same repeated stages, but you do it in different kinds of order with different objectives. On Shadow's first level, I found him a lot easier to control. So I was having a lot of fun. Unfortunately, it ends with a vehicle section. I quickly realized why people do not like the vehicle since Sonic 06. They're very difficult to control, but you know, I was like, okay, this level's pretty good.
00:54:12
Speaker
And then I had to fight Egg Cerberus again. All my frustration came back. I found it even harder this time. I don't know why, but it was even more of a struggle. And I was like, oh my god. And then I played, I got to Shadow's next level, Forest Valley. And that just broke me. I found myself just getting caught on bits of the scenery again when I was trying to like, speed away from things. All the kind of mechanical bugaboos came back.
00:54:53
Speaker
just with a vengeance.
00:55:02
Speaker
and it took a bit of time but I was like okay I can kind of deal with this and then again I tried silver second level and it wasn't like I had any problems I just got very lost in level and didn't know what I was supposed to do and I kind of got bored rather than I found it frustrating so I kind of gave up so I didn't I don't know quite what to say about 06 because it's reputation its reputation really precedes it and I can see a lot of why people have problems with it and I get it mechanically it was frustrating you do have to repeat stages and I don't
00:55:29
Speaker
I don't think the story again wasn't really grabbing me in. Eggman looks horrible in this game. I don't know why they changed his model, but he just looks wrong on every level. Not a fan. But I didn't really get to any of the juicy story bits that everybody talks about. I've watched some of the cutscenes and stuff, but I didn't quite get to that.
00:55:47
Speaker
The story was similar to a lot of these other Sonic storylines I think from this time, trying to be quite grand and cinematic. I didn't think it was great, but I didn't really have any problems with it. I can see why mechanically the game was frustrating. But you know what? Unlike Shadow, I had fun playing bits of Sonic, and I could go 6.
00:56:04
Speaker
And I could see, you know, the kind of the core, there was a good core to it that could have made a kind of good game. It just needed more polish and needed more refinement. So, yeah, again, I get why people don't like the game, but from why, again, I didn't finish it. So maybe this would change if I finished the game. But I don't think it to me, it doesn't quite deserve the kind of infamy it has. But then this is from an outsider's perspective. So I don't know whether you agree or disagree from somebody who's far more, you know, invested and far more like far more invested in the kind of Sonic franchise.
00:56:34
Speaker
I'm a bit mixed if I'm honest to kind of put it into perspective. This was Sonic's 15th anniversary and they released Sonic 06 and they also released I think a remake of Sonic 1 for I want to say it was a Game Boy I could be wrong but they released that which was critically panned because it played worse somehow than the original and if you get your own game wrong like that how they
00:57:01
Speaker
hell are you supposed to get Sonic 06 out? And of course because it was the 15th anniversary they wanted this game to come out for the anniversary and clearly we all know it wasn't finished and there's loads of Sonic fans that say if this game had the time to you know be developed by Sonic Team and then it would have been like the best game ever it would have been perfect
00:57:22
Speaker
I don't know how much I agree with that because you still would have had the same story beats. You still would have had Princess Elise and Sonic having a relationship. It would very much be gameplay differences I think. Like it would play a lot better probably. It would be optimised better.
00:57:38
Speaker
I don't think the story beats would change very much. I could be wrong. There could be a completely different vision for this game I don't know about, but let me put it into perspective for you. The fact that during the game you said that you got the light speed shoes. I was going to make a joke less on the adventure joke there, but I won't.
00:57:55
Speaker
I won't put you through it again but throughout the game you can save rings and get like these gems you put in your shoes and it gives you different abilities like one can slow down time, one can make you small for some reason and make you jump infinitely, one is like a teleport you throw like this gem and then it teleports you to wherever the gem lands you know all of these like really weird power-ups I think okay they're being quite creative but see the bar at the bottom right hand side so you were stating that you were playing through
00:58:24
Speaker
some levels with Elise, weren't you? You know how the bar goes down when you use that power. It does not go down for the gem abilities. They didn't program that in, so you can infinitely skip parts of levels because the game's broken like that. And you're like, fantastic. Absolutely stellar work, guys. Thank you so much for programming this game. And it really baffles me because Silverse has been programmed, Shadows has been programmed.
00:58:50
Speaker
I just don't get it. Now I really don't get it. And I feel as if this was the last game that they ever tried to do like a dramatic storyline. And I feel quite sad about that because this is the final game where, you know, people are like, oh, it's, you know, the worst game of all time. But personally, I played worse. I'm going to be honest. It's not the worst game of all time.
00:59:11
Speaker
again, I know I use Nickelback as an example but it's almost like you're the Justin Bieber or you know Nickelback or whatever band you want to put in here that's overly hated but they're not that bad. It's like, I feel as if so, Nickel Six. It deserves criticism. I'm not saying like it doesn't. It deserves criticism, it deserves critique, it deserves to be picked apart but I think
00:59:31
Speaker
don't think it deserves to be hated a thousand and ten percent compared to like what people say you know in the internet and i feel as if this is kind of the issue with sonic as a whole because it's like ever since sonico 6 sonic has this reputation now of oh look at sonico 6 look at how the franchise is falling oh sonic was never good and everything and you're completely right there are nuggets of like a good game in there there's like sonic's gameplay
00:59:57
Speaker
gameplay. I honestly prefer Sonic 06 gameplay compared to something like Heroes of Shadow, and that may be a very hot take, but I don't approve of this buttery, slippery kind of movement. I feel as if all those Sonic is slow as hell in this game, he should be faster. I do agree, but I do think he controls a lot easier, obviously until he
01:00:17
Speaker
glitches through the map and there's nothing you can do about it and the max speed sections are terrible. I will admit the max speed sections are awful. This is of course the very first game where Sonic the Hedgehog dies and I feel as if they could have had a serious story like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 but still kept some humour. And fun fact, did you know that Shadow the Hedgehog I think was the first game that they changed the voice actors in?
01:00:45
Speaker
Oh, is it from the cartoon that they eat? Yeah, from Sonic X. So they brought a guy called Jason Griffith who, you know, I've never met the guy, he's probably a lovely guy, but I think his shadow portrayal is very good, but his Sonic not so much. I'm not a big fan of it. I feel as if he did better as the series went on in a senior clip
01:01:08
Speaker
of Sonic Riders, which I know is one we haven't really talked about, but Sonic Riders of course being the spin-off like racing game wasn't good, I'm gonna be honest, and I really did not appreciate his line delivery and that and I don't know if that's a direction choice, that's him being nervous about the rope, I don't know, like I don't know for a fact but long story short I just didn't think he was that great in these early stuff.
01:01:30
Speaker
This doesn't apply to him particularly. You know there's other voice actors like Mike Pollock who voices Eggman. He does a fantastic job but in this game it's just very flat. Did you pick up that? Yeah, like the voice acting I definitely think took a bit of a dive from some of the things before. Like I found knuckles like weird. I didn't hear much of knuckles but I did not like
01:01:53
Speaker
his voice actor i don't know it just i think it's because this is where they started making knuckles more of like a joke like a joke character is it not now he's more like kind of the bumbling big guy rather than the kind of more tougher kind of stoic badass he was before so i don't know maybe i take a bit of getting used to that but i wasn't particularly a fan of that yeah again i think shadow shadow sounded okay to me but yeah like a lot of the other ones just yeah it just if there was something about it as you say like i don't quite know if i can put my finger on it but it just didn't sound right
01:02:20
Speaker
it's taken very seriously. And again, Sonic the Hedgehog game, but it just seems very overly serious. As I said, this is the first game where we see Sonic the Hedgehog dying, and it's like, really? Really? You're killing off your mascot? Okay, fair enough. You've got a demon who is literally called Mephiles. I'm not even joking here, by the way. There's like a shadow creature that takes shadow shadow.
01:02:47
Speaker
transforms into a shadow version of shadow. I actually don't know if that's like a programming thing or it's a design choice.
01:03:05
Speaker
I have been wondering this for years. If anybody knows the answers, please reach out to me, because I'm very curious to know if he was supposed to have a tutti grin or something like that. But no, he has nothing, because obviously what he's like, oh, what do you call it? He's like crystal form. Just weird. And of course, Silver is like this naive kid. I like Silver, OK? I love the idea that they were trying to go for. I feel sorry that this was the first
01:03:32
Speaker
game he was introduced in, but my god, his storylines just awful. Or not awful, but it feels as if they were trying to do the Sonic Adventure thing, where they were trying to link all three stories together. And I appreciate they were trying to go for an Adventure-style game, but again, you don't have to listen to us to tell you what problems they were. The hub worlds are too big. In Sonic Adventure, did you feel as if the hub worlds were too big in that game?
01:04:00
Speaker
No, I think they're of a good size, and what's good is you kind of get to know the layout of them quite well, the more you play, and it kind of becomes easier to navigate around. I think if I was going to say if you're making a hub world for a Sonic game, don't base it off Venice. Don't base it off narrow bridges where there's water that you can run straight into because it's too fast and you can't stop Sonic. There's plenty of other cities to base your game off. Don't do Venice. Don't do that.
01:04:28
Speaker
And I mean, of course, there's like a whole list of things we could go into. You know, like how the models T-pose randomly, when they get hit, how characters who are accompanying you inside her bottle die randomly.
01:04:44
Speaker
The lip syncing is technically, didn't dub it over, didn't like link it up with the English voiceover. Of course the romance plot as well which just seems bizarre. It seems really, really, like there's actually a kind of side or a mission you have to play to get ahead in the game where it's like you have to choose between Elise or Amy and you choose and nothing happens. Much like the rest of the game, nothing happens. For Sonic's story it can be summarised as Elise gets kidnapped
01:05:11
Speaker
four times, travels back in time to save our beats Eggman. That's it for Shadow. Shadow's is actually a lot more complex and again I feel as if they were kind of moving in the right direction with Shadow in this game but it's almost Shakespearean at times and I don't mean that and it's a compliment. Basically he goes to the future and Mephiles tells him, oh you were blamed for, I kind of remember, blamed for causing the end of the world somehow, I don't know, and he's like
01:05:42
Speaker
actually put in like a capsule and a Jesus pose.
01:05:47
Speaker
I don't know if it's a Jesus pose or a T pose. One and the same, but at the same time you're just like, what? And I actually didn't realise because there's so much shit covering his face. And you're like, oh, that's supposed to be like a prison, oh. You know, it's like his kind of journey of saying, I let the world think what they think. You know, his friends, Team Dark are back again. You've got E123 Omega, who, although I really like E123 Omega, he's basically an Eggman robot that is kind of jaded
01:06:16
Speaker
that he's been like relegated and not used so he just hates all Eggman's robots and he just starts destroying all of them and then the comics he's fantastic. I love that story. He's absolutely fantastic but in this one they change his voice and it just sounds like someone being like I will be out Robert and you're like oh no oh no what did you do to him because I'm on a
01:06:42
Speaker
Look, I'm like, that's so good, my boy. It's just so weird. And of course you've got Rouge being Rouge, you know, same thing. With Silver's story, he goes through the entire story. There's a thing going back to like, you remember the thing I said about Shadow and how he was bringing up the implications of suicide and things like that. In this one we have Silver, the hedgehog, contemplating whether it's morally right to take out life
01:07:09
Speaker
in order to do some good. And I'm like, this is Sonic the Hedgehog. I'm all for serious themes, okay? I feel as if a good children's story should have themes that challenge and, you know, like not treat children like children, if that makes sense. But this isn't the way to go.
01:07:27
Speaker
You can't have someone try to kill Sonic the Hedgehog and be like, is it morally right? You know, it's like playing Super Mario Sunshine and it's like he starts talking about tax blockades and things like that. It's like, is it right to blockade a country? It's like, Mario! Water is a precious resource there. There will be wars in the future over it.
01:07:49
Speaker
If you were to summarize all the philosophical musings in the Sonic games, do you think you could say in the end, it's no use? Yes.
01:08:01
Speaker
Yes I could. Oh it is just, it is bizarre. And of course we've got the final story which I'll touch on quickly but did you get round to watching? I did watch all the cutscenes for the final story. I mean other than being awful in itself, I was howling when I saw a video on this by the way of someone critiquing the game as a whole and it's like okay fair enough but there was a bit where
01:08:26
Speaker
There was a bit where, you know, when Sonic's dead, first of all, like, and I'm gonna point out the whole Elise crying thing to release the demon, utter shite, okay? You know, but we all know it. I don't have to sit here until it just makes no sense, but there's a scene where she's like sitting over Sonic and then she's like, hold on, I feel his presence in the wind. He's nothing.
01:08:48
Speaker
they did. So they have to collect all seven chaos emeralds to bring them back to life. And what I find hilarious is one person pointed out and said boy Gerald Robotnik sure missed the boat on that one didn't he? And I'm just like yeah imagine if Gerald Robotnik could have revived Maria. I mean
01:09:10
Speaker
a slap in the face. I feel like Shadow was seething the entire time. Like, oh my god, I couldn't save Maria. It's got the Necronomicon out of the seven chaos emeralds. I would give them ideas. Oh they probably would. I wouldn't be surprised. They gave Shadow a gun. How much more can they hurt the franchise? So I've got to ask before we move on to the final game of this, but what did you think of the infamous scene in this game?
01:09:35
Speaker
I feel it's so difficult to talk about this scene, because I feel it's been raked over the coal so much, and it's been dissected and analysed and ridiculed. It was a bad idea! It was a bad idea, there's no denying. But I don't know, I mean, this is kind of a... It's kind of that Snow White thing, isn't it? You know, where, like, the kiss to revive life, so it's kind of playing on that trend, so it's not like a... This is a very well-worn trope.
01:10:00
Speaker
you know, of fairy tales and fantasy. It's just that, you know, and I think in and of itself it's okay. I think it's just the fact that they've tried to build a relationship between this sentient hedgehog and this princess, this human princess. I don't know what to say. Again, I feel it's one of these scenes that's come to define the whole game.
01:10:17
Speaker
and it's the thing that you're pointing to and be like, this is why the game is terrible. And that's not, it's not, the game isn't terrible because of that. The game is, and the game isn't, I don't think the game is terrible. The game's bad because it's, you know, because it wasn't finished. It's because it was rushed. That's why the game isn't good. You know, I just feel that scene is kind of the one that you pointed to. But look, look, see, this is why Sonic was always bad. It's like, no, this is just a misstep.
01:10:41
Speaker
This is, like, a single misstep that has been kind of blown out of proportion. So I don't really know, like, I just think its legacy is too much now. I think it's probably time to just kind of let it go and be like, you know what, it happened. But at the end of the day, don't all franchises have, like, a misstep somewhere. Find me a franchise that doesn't have a very bad kind of tonal or whatever story misstep. That whole thing is a misstep. Oh, dear.
01:11:09
Speaker
Yes, but my prodding aside, I totally see what you mean. It is that kind of... it's weird because it skirts the line between the cliches, as you said, with the kiss to bring them back and the kind of generic love story and this crazy idea of him being, I don't even know, dead but
01:11:30
Speaker
What did? One of the things, and this is what makes me sad, because as many long-term listeners of the podcast will know, the reason I bought a PlayStation 3 was because I really wanted to play Sonic 06. I remember on the dial-up internet looking up videos that loaded really slowly, and it was literally just Sonic standing in Kingdom Valley. And I kid you not,
01:11:53
Speaker
I was super excited about a lot of these videos. I was seeing him running fighting the robots. I was thinking, oh, it looks so good. Because, you know, as I said, I wasn't a big fan of Heroes or Shadow because of the cartoonist style. It was a bit too much for me. So I thought, this is going to be Sonic's return to form. This is going to be the kind of spiritual successor to Sonic Adventure 3. This is going to be known as Sonic Adventure 3. It wasn't.
01:12:22
Speaker
they tried. It really really was and that is a shame and I just feel so, I feel sad for it in a way. I feel annoyed in a way that Sega really mismanaged Sonic but I also feel kind of sad that this is the legacy that Sonic now has and I'm going to touch on your point, before we go into the final game, I am going to touch on your point where you said about people who unfairly criticise this game because
01:12:48
Speaker
Let's face it, Sonic nowadays is just a walking meme. Yeah, sadly. Whenever people, as you said, whenever people look at Sonic, they'll always point to this game and go, oh look, terrible game. And again, not to name names or you know, spread heat or anything, but there are particular like, let's players out there who they'll be playing earlier games in the franchise and they'll be like, look, I faced through a wall, therefore this game is as bad as Sonic 06 and it's like,
01:13:14
Speaker
Well, you're playing a game that is, what, a good couple of years older than Sonic 06 on infinitely old hardware, and you're playing the buggy port of the game, so therefore what do you expect kind of thing? But because of that, something else I want to point out, even Sega's response to this. So if you look at the Sonic of Hedgehog,
01:13:35
Speaker
social medias like Facebook, Twitter and so on, they have a lot of self-deprecating humour. And don't get me wrong, some of the memes are top class, you think, well, I love it. But then you see some of the other ones where they talk about, you know, O6, they talk about Shadow the Hedgehog and things, and I feel as if that's a bad representation. It's almost like if you had a friend, right, you've got a friend who, you know, has been through a couple of missteps of his own and
01:14:00
Speaker
you always joke to people who don't know said friend, you emphasise his missteps, you don't emphasise like the times he was a good friend, the times he did well, his kind of golden age as it were before he kind of slipped into this negative period of life and then as soon as someone's going to meet this new friend
01:14:17
Speaker
They're not gonna think, wow this guy used to be cool. They're gonna think, oh he was always a loser. And that's what Sonic the Hedgehog feels like up until this point. It feels as if people don't see him as like a credible character anymore. They just see him as a walking punchline. And again, you know, it's Sonic the Hedgehog. We shouldn't get riled up about it and be like, you know, grab your torches and pitchforks.
01:14:40
Speaker
There's something you said as well, that it just seems unfair that a lot of other franchises, like let's face it, I bash Call of Duty every episode, you know, we've bashed Halo as well, we've bashed so many other games. But why is it that Sonic the Hedgehog gets so much hate in comparison?
Unique Criticism of Sonic Franchise
01:14:58
Speaker
And I feel as if that is one of the central reasons behind that, is this kind of cultivated reputation. And again, as I said, you're allowed to critique Sonic, you're allowed to say this game's bad, I don't like it, fair enough. But what makes Sonic different compared to other franchises?
01:15:15
Speaker
It's completely true, and that's why I find it so sad but also fascinating. As you say, I cannot think of another example of a franchise that has had a bad entry, and people have retroactively gone back. People have said, well, this is no good. And then have also retroactively said, wait, but this has never been good. If anything, what tends to happen is if there's a bad game in a franchise, take Call of Duty and stuff. So maybe you could say for the last near decade,
01:15:41
Speaker
the quality of games has probably gone down, you'd say. But that's not led people to go back and be like, oh, this was always a terrible franchise. It's made people look back at things like Call of Duty 4 and World at War, you know, and Black Ops and be like, oh, they were so good. You know, look, look how the franchise is now. But those were so good. Same with Halo, you know, people don't like 343's tenure. But, you know, that hasn't like retroactively made people they look at the Bungie years and go, oh, what is what a terrible franchise this always was. You know, it's just elevated.
01:16:08
Speaker
Bungie's tenure of Halo. It's just fascinating that what's happened is the reverse of Sonic, in that a run of a few bad games has just come to define the whole series as terrible. And you're just like, oh my! That's why I say it's just not true. I find it weird and bizarre, and it's just sad that it's happened.
Sonic Spin-offs and Unleashed
01:16:27
Speaker
And of course, in between all of these games, you've got the kind of spin-off games. You had the Storybook series, which I don't know if you know much about those. Is that Secret Rings? Yep, that's the one. Secret Rings and Black Knight, which I've played them. Again, not my favourite, but the one thing I will say is I admire the creativity. Sonic and the Secret Rings, they put them into the Arabian Nights tales and in Black Knight, they put them into like a
01:16:56
Speaker
King Arthur, Camelot King deciding, it's creative, it's completely different compared to the other games but it's still that Sega, you know, that they're trying new things, they're trying different things and I mean obviously but we've just spent the last hour or so saying like oh it didn't work but you can at least admire them for trying and whether or not it did work
01:17:19
Speaker
it's still that idea that they're trying new things and everything and I feel as if to kind of cap it off we really have to talk about Sonic Unleashed because it was a bit hesitant about including Sonic Unleashed but I feel as if this is kind of the borderline game between the modern era and the dark age so of course being the thorough historian you are you did play this game so how did you find it?
01:17:46
Speaker
This game you can now get on modern consoles. It came out originally for things like the PS3 and the 360, but you can get it on modern versions now of those systems. And the story of Unleashed is that while trying to stop Eggman's latest plot, Sonic has been captured by Eggman and
01:18:03
Speaker
The Chaos Emeralds are stolen by Eggman, and he uses their power to unleash this kind of ancient evil that's been residing in the heart of the planet, which then basically splits the planet apart into floating land masses. This drains the Chaos Emeralds of their power, but also has the effect of transforming Sonic into a different creature called a Werehog, basically like a werewolf.
01:18:25
Speaker
And so basically what happens is during the day, it's just regular Sonic, but when night falls, he turns into this, into the Werehog. And so that's that the game is basically, again, trying to, trying to repair the damage that Eggman has done to the planet by restoring, by restoring power to the KSM rules and fixing the planet and defeating the evil that he has awakened.
01:18:41
Speaker
And so, yeah, during the day, during the day sections, you have your kind of classic Sonic speed levels that we're all used to by now. But then during the night, you have werehog stages, which are far more, far slower paced and far more focused on combat and kind of more slower kind of not Mario style, but more that kind of style of platforming. So this was the first game because it was easiest to get. This was the first game that I played before I tried Shadow or before I tried 06. And what I can say is so the game starts with two kind of day sections for Sonic.
01:19:08
Speaker
which were the most fun I think I've had playing a Sonic game. They were an absolute blast, like it felt, you felt that sense of speed, like the spectacle was great, the controls were perfect, I had no problems at all with any kind of mechanical, I had no mechanical issues, and it was just such a thrill ride to speed through these kind of village and forest sections, and I was like, this was, I just was, it was just like, so impressed, I was like, this is so much fun.
01:19:32
Speaker
Fortunately then I got to the first Werehog section and the action slows down and it becomes a grind. I was just thinking about something you said earlier about the length of Sonic levels. I felt like some of the Werehog series went on for so long and it was just such a bore and such a drag to go through. I think I maybe played about a quarter of this game, maybe a bit less than a quarter.
01:19:52
Speaker
I kind of gave up when I started to have some trouble with the Sonic Day stages, which I've been enjoying before. But I kind of there's one in a kind of ice level that I found quite frustrating. Looking back at it, like it's not I don't think it's so much mechanical. I think it's more kind of my skill level was getting quite tested there. So I'm not really I can't really blame the game. I don't think it was doing anything wrong. I think it was just me. I was being kind of slow to catch up to the kind of the rise in skill needed for the game. So I think I put more time into it. I'd probably be fine.
01:20:19
Speaker
As well, the game has a system where you need to collect a certain number of medals in each level to unlock new stages and everything. And before having to go back and play some of the werehog stages, I thought, I can't do it. And I got to a point where I wasn't really looking forward to anything in the game. So for me, there's a great core to this game.
01:20:37
Speaker
And it really shows that they kind of learned and I think they really mastered. They were mastering by this point how to make a really great 3D Sonic game. You know, they kind of learned from some of the missteps before and kind of in a way maybe harkened a bit back to some of the adventure games and the things they did right. But they fortunately felt the need. It feels like they didn't feel that was enough for the game to stand by. So they need they needed to add something else, which was these werehog sections, which just don't they don't work. It plays like a kind of bad God of War clone. And I just I didn't find them fun. I didn't find them engaging.
01:21:06
Speaker
and so again frustrating because you're like oh you had such a good you have there's some great elements to this but it's just being weighed down by this other by this kind of tedious side to it so again it's disappointing that but you kind of feel maybe a bit more hopeful about the series looking at it because you're like you feel like they're on the right direction
01:21:23
Speaker
going off of 06 it took me like a long time to get back into the series and everyone was saying how amazing Sonic Unleashed was. It was all a return to form and everything so eventually I caved in about the game and I'm gonna be honest I just did not like this game. This seems to be you know a very lukewarm take but I do agree the speed stages are fantastically done. I think this was the first game that introduced the boost formula
01:21:51
Speaker
at least for the main series games. I don't know if it was like in Sonic Rush or anything like that but you know for especially for these games that was the first time there was the best formula and like the opening is absolutely fantastic but I think up until the werehog comes in I feel as if that's just where it goes down completely it just
01:22:10
Speaker
spirals into what the hell were you thinking? And as I was saying before, you brought up the length of the Werehog levels are just terrible. They repeat the same jazz music as you're beating up the enemies. I hate it. I hate that. I hate it so much. I think the Werehog is terrible. I think that even the characters just seem so bland. They took what was like kind of a, I mean, sky chasing adventure one wasn't like
01:22:36
Speaker
high hitting great performance, but I would take a million sky chases over whatever the hell they put into Sonic Unleashed. The quick time event. The one thing I will say is aesthetically this game looks gorgeous. I love the levels based in Spain and the ice level as you said. There's levels based in China, there's just so many
01:22:59
Speaker
beautiful locations. It's just such a grind trying to get to them because you need to replay levels and get tokens to play through certain levels. So you know it's like you have to get the day and night counters to kind of progress and that just that kept my enjoyment because it maybe it's just me being lazy but if I want to play a Sonic game I just want to keep going from level to level to keep on running. I don't want to stop and be like alright I've got to take five photos of Professor Pickles, Pickles you know.
01:23:28
Speaker
And I don't want to do that, I just want to play the games. And there's some great levels in this, even so much that they included them in Sonic Generations. I don't want to play it, I just want to play the game, let me play the game Sega. This is like some people's favourite game, so again I'm not saying just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to like it. This is one of the only Sonic games that I actually haven't completed, did you know that?
01:23:52
Speaker
I don't blame you because, as I said, when I figured out that you had to get the tokens, I was just like, that really killed, that really killed any enthusiasm. It's okay sometimes to repeat levels, you know, like I know Sonic games have that as a kind of staple of repeating levels, but there's something about having to replay it as the exact same character, you know, especially when it's something like the werehog levels, you just completely sapped my enthusiasm. So I don't blame you for not wanting to stick with this one.
01:24:18
Speaker
But I mean, I think I got to the last fight and I just gave up. I was like, I kept getting beat. And unlike the Bio-Wizard in Adventure 2, and I know I'm biased, we're saying, oh, in Adventure 2. But for the Bio-Wizard, I genuinely struggled. It took me years to actually go back to it and be like, OK, I'm going to try and defeat it.
01:24:36
Speaker
you know there was that kind of swelling sense of accomplishment and I was like I can't believe I finally completed this whereas if I go back to Sonic Unleashed I'm not gonna feel that I'm just gonna think alright it's just another game ticked off. That's the thing as well like going back as you said and playing through the game as these characters it's like you're boosting through a level you know you're zooming past but see if you have to stop
01:24:59
Speaker
every five minutes and just kind of look around for the token to be like oh no I ran by a token I have to run back and it's like now you're just killing the pacing and I feel as if they were onto something good here but at the same time
Sonic's Formulaic Era
01:25:14
Speaker
I feel as if this was kind of I wouldn't say the beginning of the end but I feel as if this is when Sonic became a lot more formulaic
01:25:21
Speaker
where they just stopped trying to innovate, trying to do something different, because say at the end of the day, whatever you think of, you know, heroes or shadow or 06, they were all so, so distinctive. They had their own storylines, they had their own images, because if you look at an image from Sonic 06, you immediately go, that's Sonic 06. If you go from shadow, you go, oh, that's shadow, oh, that's heroes.
01:25:47
Speaker
yeah later on they kind of abused the best formula a little too much I would say. That is something we will discuss in the next episode but before we finish up, is there anything you want to say? I think this is a fascinating era for Sonic and unfortunately a lot of that is negative kind of fascination because this clearly did a lot of damage to the franchise and I think unjustly did a lot of damage to the franchise. I totally agree with what you just said there about Sega innovating
01:26:15
Speaker
And, you know, they really did try to innovate in this era, and I think a lot of it didn't work, but some stuff did, you know, and you can admire that, you know, and I think as well they were trying for kind of grand stories and everything, which I don't think always paid off, but again, you know, they really were trying to kind of lead into that cinematic side of gaming, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing all the time. Again, I didn't have as much fun playing a lot of these games as I did with the kind of 2D ones, you know, and not to say that I had some frustration with the 2D ones as well, but
01:26:42
Speaker
I didn't find a game here that I latched onto like I did with Sonic Hedgehog 2, where I really wanted to play more of it. I kind of reached a point with all these games where I was just like, I'm done. I've had enough, I've had my fill. And it is frustrating, and there's a lot of frustration to be had. You do feel there was a lot of rushed development and everything that just harmed the franchise. It's frustrating in that level to see the creators do damage to the series, but I do think
01:27:08
Speaker
the negative aspects of this run of games have just completely gone out of proportion, and I think it's really undeserved.
Balancing Criticism and Favorites
01:27:15
Speaker
The damage that it's done to the franchise, you know, and to label the whole franchise as bad because of a couple games is nonsense, and it's stupid to be honest, in my opinion. It's sad what happened in this period, but there still is good, there still is good, and even in some of the bad games, I think there still is good, and yeah, just stop hating, stop using this like, stop painting the whole series with a brush because of a couple of games.
01:27:38
Speaker
You know, it is what it is. They weren't great games. But as I say, find me a franchise that has a perfect record because you won't be able to fight one. Because every franchise that runs for as long as Sonic is going to have some duds. We just need to deal with it. And that doesn't have to reflect on the whole series. No, good enough said it better myself.
01:27:54
Speaker
it feels as if Sonic at the time when you know he was competing against Mario he was built up to be like you know that concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy of like you know building up this character for great things and then it was just like one dud after the other and you know I've like throughout this episode I have expressed my dislike
01:28:16
Speaker
for Sonic Heroes, for bits of Shadow, bits of Sonic 06. The one thing I want to emphasize here, if you listen this far, I want to point out if any of these are your favourite games, do not let anybody take that away from you, because it's bad enough people make fun of the things, you know, that you like, or, you know, you get attached to, and then people are like, haha, it's smelly. The thing is, at the end of the day, Sonic deserves to be critiqued, but I totally side with you, Adam. I don't think
01:28:44
Speaker
that it deserves the amount of, like, hate it gets. And I feel as if because of, you know, internet celebrities and, you know, now gaming companies because Sega's on board with it and that's almost their identity, where it's just self-deprecating humour. It's them saying, haha, remember how bad we were?
01:29:02
Speaker
that game and it's like, but that wasn't Sonic. Sonic was this cool dude with the attitude, maybe he was a product of the 90s, I can totally accept that, but there's so many people who grew up with Sonic who, you know, Sonic has such like a dedicated fanbase to it and it's kind of like continued throughout the years. It will probably continue for many more, maybe not in the same way that he
01:29:25
Speaker
used to be because you still get diehard fans who say Oh Shadow the Hedgehog's the best or Sonic Heroes is the best because I was there first games and I'm guilty of that as well because the Sonic Adventure ones were some of my first games and I still love those games in comparison to Unleashed or any of the other ones but the main takeaway I wanna emphasize is
01:29:45
Speaker
If you like these games, that's perfectly fine. You don't have to feel ashamed that, oh, you like Sonic and the Secret Rings, or, oh, I like Shadow the Hedgehog. I might not understand it. I genuinely might not understand it, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong. Again, it's just to reiterate your point, it is way overblown. Whether you love or hate this age, one thing I will say is this. The fact that they tried something different, it didn't work
01:30:10
Speaker
But, see at the same time, what other franchise can you think of that have done something very similar, had game after game, that wasn't a hit? And then it's been talked about to this day, because I can't think of many. Maybe CODS, maybe... I can't even think, you know. Maybe there's a couple of examples out there, but honestly.
01:30:30
Speaker
It feels like with Kog, you could argue with Kog or Bag because it's maybe treaded water more than anything, rather than they've never really, I don't think they've really been like, they've taken a swing and a miss. It's always been kind of, they've played it safe. You know, well at least here with Sonic, Sega were trying things, maybe they were missing a lot of the shots, but you know, they were trying to take them at least. I mean Sega is infamous for missing the mark. Just look at their treatment of the alien colonial marine saga.
01:30:56
Speaker
That is a fascinating read, by the way. It is fascinating to see what happened there, and it does seem as if it's partly due to mismanagement, but I think at the end of the day, I don't know. I feel as if at least in this era, Sonic had a lot more character compared to what was to come. And on that note, the next episode we're going to do is
01:31:17
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to focus on the modern era of Sonic, so we're going to be talking about Sonic covers all the way through to Forces and Frontiers.
Preview of Next Episode and Conclusion
01:31:26
Speaker
You know, we've got a lot of games to kind of get prepared for. Adam, I am so curious to hear what you have to say about these games coming up.
01:31:34
Speaker
I'm looking forward to taking the next step and it'll be nice to kind of join all the dots now, you know, having gone from the beginning to get to the end. So I'm excited. I'm excited to do this. And honestly, it's going to be one hell of a journey because once we finish this episode and the
01:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, really, once we've finished all the ages of Sonic, we are going to be focusing on a trivia quiz, which I can't wait to do with you. And then we are going to be camping off with the retrospective of the Sonic Adventure series. So that is one to look out for. So do not miss that. Adam, thank you. That's all I have to say. I'm just like, thank you for your service. No, you're welcome. It was as much as there was frustration, I'm still glad I did it. So you're more than welcome.
01:32:17
Speaker
can tick that off the gaming bucket list. Another piece of the puzzle of building. Exactly. As always, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode. If you would like to hear more episodes where we talk about Sonic, or really just anything to do with gaming, my films, anime, general interest, you know we've got a whole catalog ready for you. You can capture us on Anchor, Spotify, iTunes,
01:32:40
Speaker
YouTube as well and really any good podcast app so just look for the name Chat Tsunami and we will see you there. But until then, thank you all so so much for listening, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.