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Ep 41: Building Legal Ops at Google: DeAnna Papedis, Head of Legal Contracts & Operations, Google
82 Plays8 months ago
How has the legal ops profession evolved over the years? What was it like to be there at the birth of legal ops? And how can you break into the field now?
DeAnna Papedis, head of legal contract & product program management & operations at Google, has been with the tech giant for eighteen years, building up their massive legal ops departments from a team of legal assistants. Stepping into legal operations from a contract management role before the field even had a name, DeAnna has watched legal ops grow into an indispensable part of the organization.
Hear DeAnna as she takes a break from CLOC to discuss building and leading one of tech’s biggest and most venerable legal ops teams, expanding the legal ops community, and predicting the future of legal ops.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-41
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Transitioning from contracts manager into legal ops: 4:55
Growing legal ops within Google: 8:56
Managing a legal ops team: 11:44
Attending CLOC from the beginning: 13:40
Imagining the future of legal ops: 16:24
Book recommendations: 19:11
What you wish you’d known as a young lawyer: 20:00
Connect with us:
DeAnna Papedis - https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanna-papedis/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Getting a Job at Google
00:00:00
Speaker
How do you think you were able to get a job at Google when the company was so early on? So I fortunately got a call and figured it was a long shot. But when I showed up for my interviews, it turns out that the deputy general counsel at the time was somebody that I worked with. I was just really fortunate. And I learned later, which is really humbling, that she left the interview and was like, we need to hire her immediately.
00:00:36
Speaker
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00:01:24
Speaker
How has the legal ops profession evolved over the years? What was it like to be there at the birth of legal ops? And how can you break into the field? Today, I'm joined live at clock by Deanna Papadis, head of legal contract and product program management and operations at Google. Deanna was an early hire at Google in 2005, and she has been an integral part of the growth of the legal team. Deanna, thanks so much for joining me today.
00:01:53
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. Before we start talking about the history of legal ops, we're here at Clock. What's your favorite part of being at Clock?
00:02:00
Speaker
Oh, well, I've been at Clock since the first one in San Francisco. Obviously, I'd never imagined it would be this big.
Evolution of Legal Operations Profession
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah. So my favorite part is connecting with people, meeting new people, connecting with friends who I know in the industry and being able to catch up with them. Doesn't hurt to be in Vegas because I'm a big gambler. And of course, seeing the newer technologies and what's out there and available is nice as well. So, you know, being able to meet with several vendors and see what
00:02:30
Speaker
we might want to be considering for
00:02:33
Speaker
You're a good craps player, I've found out. I try, I try. But I think I've been blamed for some losses this week. That's unfair. I certainly wouldn't blame you. It's gambling, right? That's right. You joined Google in 2005. And before Google and your tenure there, you'd already established yourself. You had a really well-established career as a legal professional at some global law firms. 2005, Google was also not the
00:03:02
Speaker
large multinational incredible company that it is today. So joining was probably a bit of a risk. I would like we'll hear from you. How did you decide to apply and how do you think you were able to get a job at Google when the company was so early on?
00:03:17
Speaker
My application story is a bit of a funny one. Yeah. So Google is located right outside of music amphitheater. Sure. The main campus. And I was actually really, I had been in law firm life for 12 years already, kind of over it, wanted to go in house. I was driving to a concert and my brother, we were stuck in traffic to get into the venue. I've been to this venue before and I've waited in traffic. Yes.
00:03:45
Speaker
He looks over, he's like, hey, Dee, there's the Google sign. Why don't you apply there? And next time, we could park at your work instead of sitting in the traffic. And I was like, OK. So I put my resume in the next day. And I've been there ever since. That's amazing. Was it a difficult process to get interviewed and to join?
Experiences at Early Google
00:04:04
Speaker
For sure. Especially back then, interviewing at Google took months. And so it was kind of well-known for being a very difficult process.
00:04:14
Speaker
So I fortunately got a call and figured it was a long shot. But when I showed up for my interviews, it turns out that the deputy general counsel at the time was somebody that I worked with back at a law firm. I ran the summer associate program when she was a summer associate. So she came in and immediately knew me and remembered my work. And we worked together back at the firm. So I was just really fortunate. And I learned later, which is really humbling
00:04:42
Speaker
that she left the interview and was like, we need to hire her immediately. So that's great. Yeah. Connections are everything who you know, who you, you know, hopefully impressed, uh, throughout your career is, is everything. Was it scary to leave the law firm and join Google? Like what were those early years like?
00:05:00
Speaker
Heck yeah, it was scary. I had a long history in law firms. I understood it. I didn't understand how to go to a company originally. The offer was significantly less pay. But I was done with working in the law firm. So ultimately, I really debated whether to take it.
00:05:22
Speaker
you know, glad I did, you know, the early days were extremely scrappy. Like it was, do anything that needs to get done. So there was literally no bureaucracy. So it was just whatever it needed to be, you did. But then there was the fun stuff, you know, so it made the company, you know, really a good place to show up every day and really great people. And then, you know,
00:05:49
Speaker
Perks and food and you know all the things that Google is known for yeah I feel like Google kind of established that whole idea of we're gonna have meals for you We're gonna do your dry cleaning for it like I don't I don't think of a lot of companies who were doing that before Google was actually Yeah in the early days there was a lot of that there were trampolines and there were I mean just all kind you know ball pits outside of like conference rooms and uh-huh
00:06:16
Speaker
And they still have a lot of that today, slides going from the second floor to the first floor. Fun stuff. That's cool.
Transition to Legal Operations
00:06:23
Speaker
When you were first hired, you were hired as like a contracts manager, contracts administrator, and then over time you transitioned into legal ops. Can you tell us about that transition? Because I think that the transition also sort of happened as legal ops was becoming a term, a profession, an idea. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that.
00:06:43
Speaker
Well, I had built a large team of legal assistants. It was really before we were using the term legal operations. I mean, it may have existed, but I wasn't really aware of it. And the legal assistants did a lot of administrative slash operational work along with
00:07:02
Speaker
doing some of the kind of more junior legal work. And so as legal operations started to really become more of a thing, that's when we sort of realized like we needed to sort of split those two roles and that's when I moved to focus more on the operations side versus the legal side. And so that was probably 15, 16 years ago now.
00:07:28
Speaker
When you were making that transition, uh, did you feel like everybody in the company understood what legal ops was or did you have to do with like sort of education on the legal ops term? I don't think people really, everyone understands the term still today. Right? Like, uh, you know, especially with lawyers who, you know, they're, they're focused in one area and we're constantly having to remind them,
00:07:55
Speaker
What we can do to help them sure like we can actually take a lot of that off of your plate So that you can focus on the important legal work that you need to do like there's no That's why there are the legal professional roles, right legal ops is a term I mean, I think this is actually kind of interesting I've talked about this with other guests on the podcast before is legal ops as a term widely understood or we still sort of making it up as we go I mean, I think some people even think
00:08:21
Speaker
hey, maybe legal operations is just operations and is very similar to business operations or product operations. Yeah, I don't know if you have a view on that too.
00:08:31
Speaker
I mean, I think that there's a lot of truth in that, right? Operations that need to be scaled for any department have a lot of similarities. And so I happen to grow up in the legal field, but I know other colleagues who have actually transitioned from legal operations into business operations. And I think there are a lot of transferable skills. So operations just running a department, making sure that things are happening.
Google's Legal Ops Structure
00:08:56
Speaker
Other than getting a lot bigger, how has legal ops at Google sort of grown up over the years? Are there areas that you think that Google made specific investments or took one path versus another that you think have been really important to the success of legal ops at Google?
00:09:15
Speaker
Well, I mean, Google's a huge company. Yeah. So we are structured probably very differently than most other companies that you talk to. Except for maybe some of the other really large companies. Microsoft. Yeah, Meta. And that means we have certain teams that are so big that they are embedded within the teams that they support. And then there are more centralized
00:09:37
Speaker
legal operations for things such as like legal billing, knowledge management. Those are things that we have central teams that can manage those things across the department. But like for my role, I'm embedded within our contracts and product counseling teams because
00:09:55
Speaker
We are so big within that space right that takes entire teams on its own you know we have embedded teams and discovery as another example so right so we're not like on a smaller company might see like one legal operations team yeah but when you get to the scale of of google it's really hard to keep it like that.
00:10:16
Speaker
That makes sense. The structure needs to be totally different. As you sort of grew in your career at Google, you started to build out your own team.
Team Management & Hiring Practices
00:10:25
Speaker
I think that something that lots of folks who are taking on manager roles or trying to build, even at smaller companies, trying to build centralized, smaller legal ops teams, they're thinking about how do I find the best talent? Like how do I recruit and retain really top talent? Where do you look when you're hiring? And is it always outside Google?
00:10:42
Speaker
No, it's not always outside Google. And to be fair, I haven't hired in a long time. Yeah. I mean, obviously the the times are tough, so there is no headcount. So I haven't interviewed in a while, but I will start by saying that I have the best team, the best team.
00:10:58
Speaker
Everyone on my team is fantastic. I have worked with a lot of wonderful professionals, and you can find those people internally, externally. I look to my network, making sure that you let people know if there's a role. If you know anyone, here's how it is. Obviously, we are big and have recruiters also, so they do their job. Nowadays, I would look on LinkedIn if I had headcount.
00:11:27
Speaker
Maybe someday. Maybe someday. I think that's common. A lot of companies, especially large companies, if they're not cutting back, there's hiring freezes all over the place still, right? But it's good for small companies like ours because there's lots of amazing talent out there who might want to jump at another opportunity. How would you describe yourself as a manager? Do you think that becoming a better manager was a steep learning curve? How did you find success in managing your team?
00:11:56
Speaker
Definitely a steep learning curve. I feel like leading a team and and you know having management responsibilities It's a huge thing to learn and I and it's a lot of maturing over time to really figure out how to Have empathy and you know lead people
00:12:14
Speaker
that want the same thing as you and your department. I mean, I would have to ask someone on my team to answer the question about how I am as a manager, because I think their perception is the reality of how I am, not how I feel I am. But I do try and lead with empathy and make sure that folks can voice what it is that their goals are and where I can influence that. I do and bring opportunities to them as we can, obviously,
00:12:44
Speaker
with getting the needs of the department done as well. And then, you know, just making sure that, you know, when you're information sharing with your team, it's a constant conversation about remaining flexible to the priorities of the business and the priorities of the teams. Because, I mean, obviously at Google, it's never a dull day. A lot of people ask me, like, what's your job or what's the job of somebody on your team?
00:13:09
Speaker
and a lot of times it's hard to answer because every day it's so different and that's really what keeps us strong as a team because everyone has those same goals and so as priorities shift we are very fluid with being able to say like okay what is it now that needs to be parked sure what is it now that we're not going to do or that we're
00:13:29
Speaker
you know, gonna reprioritize or bring on a vendor to do so that we can continue to flex to focus on the highest priorities. Right. This was surprising to me, I guess, as I started to, you know, grow in my
Role of Conferences & Networking
00:13:44
Speaker
career. I didn't expect that conferences and sort of the network that you build with others and the learning that happens from your peers
00:13:51
Speaker
would play as big of a role in my career as it ended up doing. I'm sure that for you too, the ability to come to things like Clock for many years has allowed you to bring back ideas that inform the way that you run your team, the way that you manage. You've been coming to Clock since the first one. What was that like? And did you have any idea that it would be this big when they held the first one?
00:14:16
Speaker
know. Yeah, I went to the first one in San Francisco, and I've been to all the ones in Vegas. I even tried to dial into the virtual one during COVID. But that was a little bit more challenging to stay focused. And yeah, I never imagined it getting this big. I started out going to legal tech in New York. That really wasn't
00:14:36
Speaker
all that interesting to me. I wasn't a big fan. When clock started, I was actually excited. I thought the content was more relevant. I thought the community was really great. And so that's where I've really focused. If I'm going to attend a conference, I love to attend this one.
00:14:54
Speaker
So being able to come and meet all the new people and catch up with all the folks that you already know, I think that's great. But the scale of it is intense at this point. It's pretty big. Are there any other events or communities that you think that folks who are trying to grow in legal ops should definitely have on their radar or should definitely attend?
00:15:16
Speaker
I'm a big fan of legal operators. I'm on their advisory board. And I think that they do things right as well. They bring a lot of, I mean, their community is fantastic. So I love being a part of that. And I think that that's being able to meet all the folks that are in that strong community is really important. It's been really important to me. Yeah. So I would suggest that one as well.
00:15:37
Speaker
We're big fans of Colin and legal operators and what he's building. And I think his focus on community and making sure that there's a lot of peer-to-peer learning opportunities, I think that's really great.
00:15:51
Speaker
Honestly, I enjoy it even more because clock is so big now. It's really, I mean, it's still wonderful to come here and see everyone, but the networking and the community building and the really personal conversations that we have in legal operators and with Colin and Akshay and team, that is so important. That has really, really helped me grow. And I think that's in my career at this stage, I think that's the most important thing to me.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like they complement each other in a way. Any thoughts on where the legal ops profession is headed, like where it might be in five years or what this clock conference might look like in five years?
AI in Legal Operations
00:16:34
Speaker
I mean, everyone knows the buzzword is AI, right? So, I mean, maybe in five years, AI will write all of clock's content. I mean, who knows? But seriously, I mean, I do think that will play a part, but I think that it's going to be a part that the legal professionals and legal operations folks in all different types of roles are going to really need to harness and help implement in really thoughtful ways. And the way I see it is,
00:17:04
Speaker
I've heard people like, oh, AI is going to take over all of our jobs. I actually think the opposite. I think there's going to be more of a need for legal operations professionals over time, because I think we have been really on this journey of shifting a lot of work into other roles so that lawyers aren't doing all the things. And the more and more that we do that, and the more we have these
00:17:27
Speaker
technological advances that help with certain things, the more it's gonna require legal ops professionals to be there actually directing all of that.
00:17:38
Speaker
I think that's right, because it's not just about the tech, right? It's people and process and policy as well. I love that perspective. And I think that folks should take comfort in that too, right? It might be a moment of change right now, but it doesn't need to be maybe quite as scary as folks think. I also think AI has an incredible potential
00:18:01
Speaker
Right. But I think the key word there might be potential. It's very early. Some of the ways that we're using it in our product is it's really exciting, but it's also early days and like human intervention, especially around checking outputs from these sorts of models is really important. I don't know if you've, I mean, I'm sure Google's making big investments internally in AI tooling as well. I don't know if your experience has been similar.
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah, 100 percent. I think there is a lot of potential. And, you know, we see it already in a lot of our products and it's great. You know, when you're working in the legal field, you need accuracy. Yes. You know, so there there are a lot of things that are like, OK, this is on the runway.
00:18:40
Speaker
And we're moving toward that and we're learning. And the AI is learning. It's a little scary, but it's learning. And so, yeah, I think that over time, it's gonna really get to the point where it helps with a lot of our processes. But it's not gonna replace the fact that we need people that are actually, like I said, harnessing it, right? Making sure that we're not just having it spit out stuff that is gonna get us in trouble.
00:19:09
Speaker
Absolutely. I've got a couple of questions for you. Hopefully they're fun as we start to wrap up. The first one that I like to ask guests is I'm a big reader and I also travel a lot for work and I don't like sending emails on the airplane.
Book Recommendation & Career Advice
00:19:22
Speaker
I like to just read books. Is there a good book that you've read recently that you'd like to recommend to our audience?
00:19:31
Speaker
I don't know how recently it was. I haven't been doing a ton of reading lately to be clear. It's just too busy. I think the last book I read was The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah. Have you read that? I have not, but I think I've seen it as like an Amazon show or movie or something like that. It's a movie now, but I haven't seen that. I tend to read a lot of like World War II books and it's emotional. I really enjoyed it, so maybe check it out.
00:19:59
Speaker
Excellent. A last question for you as we wrap up. If you could look back on your days when you were just getting started, maybe getting started at Google, what's one thing that you know now that you wish you'd known back then? Oh my gosh.
00:20:14
Speaker
Do we have time for me to write a book about that? I'll buy it. I mean, there's so many things I wish I had. I mean, if you have the foresight of what you're going to learn over this long of a career, I would say that when you're in operations, you need to have
00:20:29
Speaker
you need to be able to scale. And I was very meticulous coming out of law firm life. Like I had to dot every I and cross every T. When you're in operations, you just, you can't focus on that. You have to focus on the big picture, which is what are the priorities for the business? How are we gonna support our teams in order to keep up? And in order to do that, you need to not be editing every I and every T.
00:20:57
Speaker
And so I think if I had known that, to be able to say like, okay, focus on the big things, don't really kind of get in the weeds too far all the time, that probably would have helped me over the years. That's great. But I could probably come up with a hundred more things if we had the time.
00:21:17
Speaker
People can meet you at clock or at a legal operators event and and ask
Conclusion & Contact Invitation
00:21:22
Speaker
you in person. Okay challenge. No, no, no, it's an opportunity Well, this has been really great. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. Thank you for having me This was fun. Yeah, and to all of our listeners Thanks for tuning into this episode of the abstract live from clock and we hope to see you next time
00:21:45
Speaker
If you liked this one, I'd love to hear your thoughts, so leave a rating or a comment. If you'd like to reach out to me or Deanna, our LinkedIn profiles are in the description. See you all next