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Goodpain Episode No. 010: Loss, Grief & Recovery - Helping during Crisis
123 Plays2 months ago
The final session that was recorded in 2023 synthesizes the journey through denial, defiance, and collaboration while focusing heavily on how to support others experiencing trauma. The conversation emphasizes the importance of humility, presence, and the principle of "first do no harm." Jeremy & Tyler explore how good intentions can cause damage when not coupled with awareness and skill.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
As a content warning, this episode discuss trauma, healing, grief involving a child and catastrophe. Due to the sensitive nature of this topic, please take care of yourself. I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler.
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:25
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to limit the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it.
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
Reflections and Future Content Plans
00:00:54
Speaker
Almost two years ago, Jeremy and I recorded this session. it was the last session in our conversations regarding my family story, my story. And in this one, we discuss what it means to help. We've alluded to this throughout all of the episodes.
00:01:08
Speaker
But this one is a little bit more specific and it deals with the paradox of being aware of how we don't invade or impact our own baggage onto others who are an undergoing crisis.
00:01:20
Speaker
At the same time that we don't use the fact that we are going to impact people as an excuse for not offering help. It's a complicated topic and we try to do it as much justice as we can, but the conversation is much bigger than what we can fit into a 60-minute session.
00:01:38
Speaker
We will be doing a couple of bonus episodes, one telling somebody else's story and then another inviting some guests from My Family Story to discuss some of their perspective as well.
00:01:50
Speaker
Both of them will be coming in the next couple of weeks As we prepare also for our next season, the topic that we're going to be covering is around masculinity and what that means, what it means to be ah leader of self, of community with a healthy, mature picture of what masculinity looks like, particularly in a world where it seems that eldership, wisdom, and mature masculinity is missing.
00:02:18
Speaker
We're trying to present a positive picture of what masculinity looks like, something for us to aspire to, something for us to seek and to build without denigrating or critiquing bad masculinity. We think there's plenty of that in this space, and what we really want to enjoy is a conversation around what it looks like to be healthy in this space, regardless of gender.
How to Offer Help in a Crisis
00:02:42
Speaker
But for today, we're going to wrap up that conversation that we started, that Jeremy and I started. and that we invited you to join us almost three months ago. And with that, welcome to episode 10, the concluding conversation between me and Jeremy two years ago.
00:03:03
Speaker
Last time we spoke, we were talking about collaboration and in your sharing of your your personal story, there was talk about all of the treading water that was happening and all of the things you're trying to do because you felt like you're supposed to be doing them even though you're in this very much uncharted territory.
00:03:21
Speaker
Based on that, collaboration was not a priority. was not something that you were thinking about until something allowed yourself to be able to accept, oh, there are other things. There are other people that want to help that can possibly provide some level of support.
00:03:39
Speaker
You can't take away the thing that's the only thing that I want to be taken away. Can't do for me the thing that I want. But Still, there was a situation or situations where you were able to acknowledge, oh, there is some value with this that's happening. So my question to you, what was that turning point?
Balancing Control and Collaboration
00:03:54
Speaker
What was that moment or season or chapter?
00:03:58
Speaker
What was that series of events for you that made you open to more of that collaborative dynamic? One of the biggest things for that shift, if not the biggest thing, was just having the space to reflect on what are the choices or what are the things that are in my control, really in my control. Yeah. That was also a big modifier for you as well, is that what my extension of reach of control really looks like now, because I think up to all of our lives at a certain point, we have this really naive sense of
00:04:29
Speaker
oh, this is in my capacity to control or modify or own this. But when you get struck with something that that is just laughable to think about all the things that are out of our control and we fool ourselves into into thinking, oh, this is something that I own.
00:04:43
Speaker
That must have also been difficult in this sea of other things that are going on is just recognize, oh my gosh, I'm totally out of control. Being able to see the myriad ways that I try to exert control in the midst of trauma, stress, a new situation that I've never experienced before is very difficult.
00:05:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh. What has become more and more amusing as we have gotten further away from events, as I've gotten older, is to see the very playful ways that my ego finds novel means of trying to reassert control.
00:05:25
Speaker
And when we talk about denial, defiance and collaboration, that might be the best way of delineating between them, at least saying that denial and defiance predominantly show up for me as a means of experimenting with what can I actually control?
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and can i control things through just denying that something is happening denying that something is out of my control when i want to believe it is in my control ah yeah acting in a way that defiantly says that shaking my fist at those things that are outside of my control those the the activity of denial and defiance are you especially early on were measures in figuring out what i could control and what i could not control I'm incredibly resilient when it comes to trying over and over and over again to wrestle things under my own control. That can be hard-headedness or whatever you want to call it.
00:06:24
Speaker
I prefer not to place a value judgment on that like hard-headedness or I shouldn't do that because there is something about that testing the limits of what's in my control that starts to reframe towards collaboration. Right. That instead of me looking at what can I control, what can I wrestle and grasp and strive yeah to control instead, what is being presented to me that is on offer to me to start working with instead of working over or dominating.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yeah. Most of the time that doesn't come without me exhausting myself by trying to exert control. yeah So people would offer things and we would say no.
00:07:09
Speaker
Early on, one of those was people offered as early as the day of the accident. And we mentioned this before is, is that they offered to watch Adam and Heidi for us. In that instance, it wasn't in defiance. I said, no, they have to be with us because you that choice was because we were choosing unity.
00:07:28
Speaker
That's what we needed at that moment. But there were that sort of normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There were other times, though, when people would offer, you know, hey, can we especially as we got farther away from the initial event, initial event.
00:07:41
Speaker
I mean, we're walking in a twilight zone. And if people offer you something, half the time, you're not even aware that you're accepting. You just yeah sure you're just going through emotions at that time. Right.
00:07:52
Speaker
But as we got farther away and our heads cleared and people would offer for things, there was an aspect of saying, no, we got, you know, thank you very much, but we're going to say no. And and there were times when I said no, more from a position of I've got this under control.
00:08:07
Speaker
Instead of what is being offered to me in that moment when somebody makes an offer to us, what is being extended to me to learn about myself?
Mindful Help and Its Challenges
00:08:20
Speaker
Whether that is about understanding that I do not need to have 100% scene control in order to prove myself that we're on firm ground, that we are stable. What are the things, maybe I'm being asked collaboratively,
00:08:35
Speaker
to use even the defiance or the, that comes up with inside me to collaborate with that and and choose the opposite of that, which is letting go, which is allowing. Yeah.
00:08:46
Speaker
And what am I letting go of in those situations? That's where collaboration gets real interesting for me because What that puts me in a position for evaluating is i am letting go. Potentially, if I say yes, I'm letting go of the parameters that I would say like, yes, I want your help as long as these conditions are met.
00:09:06
Speaker
I'm letting go of those outcomes. originally yeah And it starts showing me how often i tie my emotional state to those things. There are times when you've been in the hospital for several weeks in a row.
00:09:19
Speaker
You come home, you're part of a meal train. And for the third night in a row, somebody is delivering a lasagna. Costa dishes. Yes. you're You're so grateful for the compassion for what they are doing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
At the same time, i am killing myself with pasta. Like that's yeah like it's everything. else i need something that's going to sit lighter. There's even times defiantly where we would eat the pasta because that's what we were supposed to do. Our show of gratitude is they made this for us and then collaboratively saying that, no, this person gave a gift. And when they gave the gift, they fulfilled what it was that for them.
00:10:01
Speaker
was important. yeah The last thing oftentimes most of these people want is for us to feel obligated even to eat it. theyre and And we know this because we've participated in meal trains and we've explicitly said to other people, this is what we're making. Yeah.
00:10:18
Speaker
Or we deliver it. We say, if you're not feeling this, if it doesn't work for you, yeah. Feel free to chuck it. Yeah. but As soon as it leaves our hands, you guys are, you is it is yours. view there is As you will.
00:10:30
Speaker
This is no obligation on you. Yeah. And part of that is a reflection on the ways that we obligated ourselves to these narratives that in order for us to to honor other people, we we we had to not honor what our body was telling us at that time, is is that what I need today is something that's light, that's going to feed me, that's going to sustain me for the next 24 hours because we've got a hell of a week coming up or whatever that may be. right i would start to see the ways that I inject myself into the narrative.
00:11:05
Speaker
That is a form of telling myself I have to eat the lasagna. Yeah. There's no release in that experience as well. So yeah even somebody doing this beautiful gesture of bringing you a meal, you feel like you have to do this thing that again is out of your control and you have no interest in pursuing this, but you have to do it. There's this eternal strife about, I want to do the right thing, but I really don't want to do this thing.
00:11:26
Speaker
You use the word control. That's the funny thing about it is, is that when I would look at it, it is, these are the ways that I am defiantly saying, I have to behave this way. I have to do this yeah in order to assert my control.
The Power of Presence
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah. But when I take a step back and I look at it, it's that narrative that has control over Yeah.
00:11:46
Speaker
yeah Yes. And as soon as I let go of that narrative. Right. Right. I am able to start moving then to collaboration. And that shows up in these small little examples like the meal trains, but it starts showing up in more meaningful ways with friends, with talking about things, with with sharing things and understanding that if somebody asks me sincerely, like, how are things going?
00:12:12
Speaker
It's not my job to edit, package, or control the narrative. I'm doing fine. For them. That's right. Yeah. But we needed the space. That view did not happen.
00:12:24
Speaker
could it? No. that That evolved and it took took years. It's interesting because you you were describing the situation where you'd have a series of people offering this generous gift to show their love and support. And you felt a series of obligations to either say yes or thank you so much or either thing.
00:12:43
Speaker
And I'm thinking about this in our life and my wife's lives. And even in the chance experiences of knowing you and your wife, you've offered to give us meals over time. People have been sick and things have been going on. Can we bring you meals? And I've always...
00:12:58
Speaker
ah No, thank you. I've always said, that's great. Really sweet of you. Thank you. We're good. Which is one of the things that is part of this situation is that I don't want to be a burden, but I also want to acknowledge that this is a cool gesture. Have you going through your experience, have you been able to recognize when people who are putting up those walls and just like, this is an easy thing for us to do, but they're not in a place to receive it right now?
00:13:21
Speaker
i don't know how we ended up here, but we're going off we we were recapping our last stuff. And all of a sudden we find ourselves talking about what the topic is today, which is to help those who are going through trauma who are who are sick.
00:13:35
Speaker
I think that's called expert podcast. Yes, it is. storyteller other Absolutely brilliant. Yes. Well, all right. I didn't mean to cut you off, but let's do this the right way. So in this transition of talking about the thing we're going to talk about,
00:13:47
Speaker
always like to set the stage with a film or movie piece that you've experienced that would help the rest of us viewers to understand what this is like is there a movie that comes to mind It's the movie that in terms of trauma and helping people, we reference the most.
00:14:03
Speaker
ah The movie is Lars and the Real Girl. Ryan Gosling plays the lead role. The premise is that he lives with his brother and his sister-in-law.
00:14:15
Speaker
He's an eligible bachelor who has been hung up on a girl that he's no longer with. And he finally finds a new girlfriend. Hmm. That's where the comedy starts.
00:14:26
Speaker
the The girlfriend that he finds. i Actually, this is one I don't want to spoil. I recommend. This is a great movie to watch. This is not one that I think people have heard about. This is one of those. This is not like Drive or any of the other Ryan Gosling movies that were just art films. Yeah. This is one that I don't think I've ever...
00:14:42
Speaker
It is a little bit of a dark horse. Emily Mortimer is the sister-in-law. She's brilliant. It takes place in the Midwest in a small town. Everybody knows each other. There is one part late in the movie.
00:14:54
Speaker
Ryan Gosling experiences a tragic event. Hmm. And he it moves into a phase of depression, seeking solitude. He is reclusive.
00:15:06
Speaker
And at one point he is in his living room and he'd been sleeping fitfully. And then he he stirs from his slumber, opens his eyes and looks around and he's surrounded by these women who are from the community sitting in their chairs, not talking.
00:15:24
Speaker
All of them have some activity, whether it's crocheting or knitting. I could picture the scene right now. He's in disbelief and mumbles, what what are you doing here? Yeah. Like, why are you here?
00:15:37
Speaker
Their response is one we use for when people ask us, what can i do to help somebody? And the response he gets is, we're sitting.
00:15:47
Speaker
This is what we do when someone's in pain. We sit. That's it. Wow. Tiffany have had extensive conversations about this. For us, we we have to acknowledge that that drive to help, it's a great drive.
00:16:02
Speaker
And yet, it's not an intention that yields what most people want it to yield. So when somebody says, I want to help, they oftentimes want to help in the ways they already know how to help or in a way that convinces them that they are offering help.
00:16:23
Speaker
And that can come off in a very ham handed way that at worst can cause pain or re-traumatization for people that are walking through ah valley, through a shadow period. hmm.
00:16:34
Speaker
At best, it's the wants to help that's married up with just not a good choice on how to help. At best, the people who are walking through it recognize the desire and are grateful and compassionate for the intention. Mm-hmm.
00:16:50
Speaker
Yet they still feel the ham handedness. They feel the burden. We experienced all of that. We experienced people that did things with us that we could tell they they were wanting to help, but it was taxing the few reserves that we had left.
00:17:06
Speaker
But extending that grace and compassion. And the reason why we say this is because if I'm someone who wants to help and I become aware that what I thought was helping was not helping, but actually taxing them further.
00:17:19
Speaker
oof that's a heavy burden to carry all of a sudden i that that is sobering but it's like oh my yeah that is not what i intended that's not what i wanted yeah right and then i'm now in this spiral of why did i do that now i feel bad now i've got to apologize and here's the funny thing that process oftentimes puts us on a path that is is frankly actually can be more burdensome for somebody is because now, oh, I've got to apologize. So I go to this person, I apologize. I'm so sorry I did this. And so now the other person is carrying the burden of telling me, hey, it's not, it's okay. It's a of talking me off the ledge and making me feel better about myself.
00:18:02
Speaker
That can escalate quickly. It does ah escalate quickly. It is something that is great and reflective. And what I don't want this conversation to turn into is a formula for this equals good help. And unless I can do that, then I shouldn't do anything. It's a good point because as you were talking,
Intention vs. Impact in Helping
00:18:20
Speaker
it seems like it's very demotivating for people to offer some form of help as they perceive it.
00:18:28
Speaker
And then have that totally blow up. And it's like, oh, well, this is so much worse than I expected. This is now becoming a thing that I have to go ahead and rectify in some capacity.
00:18:38
Speaker
I'm not going to do this again. i'm going to send i'm going to send ah you know a meal voucher for somebody else to deal with. And I think that your point of this is that that's not the message you want to send, but also these are the trappings of this process. and This is what actually happens. And and there there is something to say that for us as volunteers, as helpers, as people who actually want to make an impact in a positive way, that when we say that oftentimes we forget that it's our job to be mindful and pay attention to what actually is aligned to the intention. Hmm.
00:19:19
Speaker
rather than claim ignorance and expect people to give us the benefit of the doubt all the time. It's tricky to to strike the balance between intentions and impact. That's been a big point of conversation.
00:19:33
Speaker
I would even say when we start thinking about 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement and and very well-intentioned people wanting to help, getting very defensive when they get feedback that says,
00:19:47
Speaker
That wasn't actually helpful. You either inflamed things in a way that made things worse, that painted a target even more, or it caused more destruction.
00:19:59
Speaker
People saying, hey, i'm I'm just trying to help. Yeah. as a defense, having gone through this and been on the receiving end of some of that, I'm wanting to help, but it not matching up.
00:20:12
Speaker
it's It's put us in a position for being more mindful, practicing simple awareness about what am I actually bringing to the table with my intention?
00:20:23
Speaker
When I have intentions, As much as we want to, from an attribution bias perspective, believe that our intentions are pure, we need to be clear on what pure means. It doesn't mean singular.
00:20:35
Speaker
and And that for all of us, if we don't evaluate that there are some intentions that we ourselves are not even aware of, then we are at risk for doing things that solve some of those unconscious intentions that at the same time that they're trying to solve the the conscious intentions.
00:20:56
Speaker
The encouragement here is is that we want the same thing. All of us as helpers, all of us as volunteers, all of us as missionaries, all of these desires to input good into the world because we see a need and we want to be a part of filling that need or doing what we can to alleviate pain.
00:21:18
Speaker
still requires us to be humble in whether or not we even have an appreciation for what is actually needed, for how that pain is actually addressed.
00:21:30
Speaker
And sometimes we don't have the capability that directly impacts the pain. we don't We don't have those, but we desperately want to believe that because part of this is our relationship with pain and suffering. Right. We are taught when there is something that happens, an emergent situation.
00:21:48
Speaker
If I, as a doctor, the premise first do no harm. I would like to see something similar for all of us when there's a situation that we don't have the full details. We don't know what's going on.
00:22:00
Speaker
The people who are experiencing this may not have a full picture of what's going on. They can't direct us and give us feedback to say exactly this is what's going to help. Sure.
00:22:11
Speaker
So at the very least, embracing humility is the starting point. Then the best outlet for first doing no harm, and this is where and why we reference this movie so much, is just sit.
00:22:26
Speaker
The question that we have to ask ourselves is, can we sit with pain in the room without feeling that we have to do something about it? That it obligates us to try and alleviate it or minimize it? It's a strong drive.
00:22:41
Speaker
I think everybody's skin starts to crawl and they want to so desperately do something. And I think my dad has always said this, doing something is better than doing nothing, no matter what the situation is. And dad, I love you. I don't know if that's always true. But I think that's the mentality going in is that, oh my gosh, there's hurting here.
00:22:57
Speaker
And I am not hurting in the same way. I'm umm suffering for you and trying to help. I've got to be able to make this better somehow. And I think out of desperation, people do things and it's well-meaning, but landing that is hard.
00:23:12
Speaker
Looking back, the people that had the ability to share the pain, to sit in the room
Personal Growth and Pain
00:23:20
Speaker
and to invite the pain into the, it was already there. The pain was already there. yeah But to invite the pain into the room in a way that does not make them unglued, ungrounded.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah. Was deeply meaningful and the best way to help. Meal trains are great. All of those things, the foundational activities in terms of making sure that we can sleep, we can eat, we can maintain our hygiene. Yeah.
00:23:50
Speaker
Those things are helpful, largely in retrospect. and And the reason I say that is because those were some of the last things that were a priority on my list. Sure. And so having people come alongside and present that food is available here, don't you just take a couple bites or those, those, those are, those are great things.
00:24:12
Speaker
Those are very helpful. Yeah. I lost 15 pounds in three weeks. Wow. And when I look back on that, I almost would like to know what would I have lost had I not had people around um or giving food because I was still yeah what I would say eating a reasonable amount.
00:24:29
Speaker
And this is probably helpful for the listening audience. You are not somebody who carries an additional 15 pounds to lose to begin with. So that's a lot. Those are serious numbers. Yeah. when yeah Especially at that point. but When I was younger.
00:24:43
Speaker
yeah but Yeah. It's... Those are some of the easy things, kind of the checkbox things of these these are helpful. but But when it comes to alleviating pain, those things are not alleviating pain.
00:24:56
Speaker
If I'm someone who goes in with the desire to alleviate pain... I'm either aware of the intention to alleviate pain or I'm not. Yeah.
00:25:07
Speaker
I would caution that being a intention that you allow to drive action because it is not your job. It is not my job to alleviate pain.
00:25:24
Speaker
It's also in a lot of ways an impossible task. Absolutely. In the moment, there's no way that I can take away the pain that you are experiencing. I mean, we've I think we've said this before. Yeah.
00:25:36
Speaker
because i have a glib response especially the first year i mean even more so in the first six weeks while she was in the picu my response if somebody said how can i help or what can i do to help or yeah and it was you cannot do anything yeah like do can you can give me my daughter back When Claire got injured, i was very clear in my mind that whatever, I didn't want my pain to be alleviated. i That was mine to carry the depth of it on behalf of Claire. As long as she was in a coma, as long as she was experiencing what she was experiencing,
00:26:16
Speaker
carrying, how dare i give myself license to carry less, to feel lighter? so yes, they're there not only is it an impossibility, but you might have someone like myself, whether that's my form of defiance, that I'm going to, there is no way that anybody is going to take away or mitigate this pain for me.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, if you show up, that's your end game. What you're going to get back from a feedback loop is if you try to alleviate my pain or give me comforting thoughts, I might bear with you politely. Sure. But I might get to the point.
00:26:52
Speaker
and And I can give you examples of this. I can give you examples. Some level of resentment of that experience. Yeah, it's yeah there were individuals that tried to deliver hope.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah. What's funny about this is Tiffany has a different reaction to it than I did. We did talk about this. Yeah, we did. Yeah. And so, but but that delivery of hope, that hope, it worked for Tiffany.
00:27:15
Speaker
It didn't work for me. And I think this is the great picture of this is is that when whenever you set out to, let's say, help by delivering some form of hope, You put yourself in the position that you know the situation, you know the individuals, you can foretell the future in a way that you have a high degree of certainty that what you choose to say is actually going to do what you want to do.
00:27:41
Speaker
and And I think that's the message here is is that what I have found for myself, it's brought me to a point of confronting where I have tried to do that. And whether that's something...
00:27:53
Speaker
That comes out of, it absolutely comes out of some good parts of me, of wanting to help. At the same time, there it also comes out of some areas where I have some hubris about what my role is in this.
00:28:11
Speaker
My safe spot is that silence, solitude, presence, being in a room, sitting, honoring that what they're carrying in their own solitude, they have to carry. I can't share the load. I can't carry it for them.
00:28:28
Speaker
But there is something I can't describe that says that I can be a witness to what is happening without inserting myself into the story.
00:28:39
Speaker
without making my help a part of the subject matter, that sitting with them is becoming a part of their pain. And the question for me is, can I do that?
00:28:49
Speaker
Do I have the strength to do that? Do I have the maturity, the wisdom to do that without somehow making it about me? There's times when I can, and there's times when i'm I still surprise myself for ways that I find myself offsides.
00:29:07
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I think the classic thing for this that I would i would draw is conversations between romantic partners. And i'll I'll frame this from our tradition, which is there's times when Tiffany just needs me to listen.
00:29:21
Speaker
So why do I provide a solution? i do think it's going to help. I think it's what she needs. I think it's... So the the traditional roles is that typically females, people who identify as such, want to be heard. Whereas males, they hear this, they just want to come up with ways to fix it. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you're presenting in that I think it will be helpful. I've heard what you said.
00:29:42
Speaker
I'm offering some suggestions about maybe this is a way to approach it. That never ever in my married life has never landed well. It never works. Like, you're not listening. Well, yes, I did listen. Gave you these...
00:29:54
Speaker
thoughtful and well-meaning answers to solve your problem. I don't want you to solve it. yes Right? Is this the conversation? Absolutely. I mentioned it in terms of our relationship because we're male and female, but this is the same thing that I've even experienced between two males, between two females. Like it's, it's just interpersonal dynamics that says when I'm in a conversation with, with someone and I, they're presenting what I might be Interpreting through my lens is complaining.
00:30:23
Speaker
This is really irritating them. You know, they they need help. They want to escape from this. Oh, I'm going to help them escape. Many times I do not reflect on how the complaining how the storytelling is landing with me that i want to escape this i'm done listening to complaining and that's where i insert myself into it and the actions that i decide to take is based on what's happening within me not not a honest appraisal of actually what they need
00:30:56
Speaker
I have found that there are times when not even trauma, just whether it's people looking for career advice or relationship advice where I insert myself into that conversation more than I care to.
00:31:11
Speaker
Recognizing that at those stakes. For me, then I have the stakes of trauma, emergent situations where something catastrophic has happened. I do not want to show up that way that this for me, the stakes are so much higher at that point.
00:31:26
Speaker
At the very least, I don't want to re-traumatize or commit any additional harm. Sure. That I know from personal experience, this person doesn't need another thing to carry. Right. They they they just don't.
00:31:42
Speaker
It's heavy enough already. Yeah. In a time people are feeling maxed out in ways they've never experienced in the past. Yes.
00:31:52
Speaker
Sit tight and we'll be right back after this short break.
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00:33:39
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Welcome back to the rest of the episode.
00:33:51
Speaker
You're also presenting some actions that don't come natural to most people in that they need to take inventory. They need to ask hard questions about taking themselves out of the equation and what does the other person need.
00:34:03
Speaker
That's a lot of assumptions that I think are hard for people to really do well with by guessing. What advice would you offer as far as that? Because that's that's tough. We'll start with the the very first one, which is start with sitting.
00:34:17
Speaker
Are you familiar with the Jewish tradition? This has come up so many times. I want to say this, where after the death of somebody, there's a process where family and friends, they need to sit with somebody for a period of days. I thought it was seven days. I might be wrong.
00:34:27
Speaker
And I have no idea what this called, but it's this lovely gesture to, I think, address what you're talking about. As an aside, I think we could go down a path that says like, where did we lose our ability to sit with pain?
00:34:39
Speaker
Where did we lose our ability to understand this? Because what you just described is wisdom that's a part of a tradition. Thousands of years old. Right now we're recording on traditionally Arapaho lands.
00:34:53
Speaker
The Arapaho tribe had an age grade system. So it was from ages... X to y you were tasked with certain roles and responsibilities. There were certain things that were beyond quote unquote, your pay grade until what, until you sat within that grade, that stage of life and had the opportunity to sit at the feet of others who had seen more, frankly, and who had also had the benefit of learning from others.
00:35:23
Speaker
I do think that the more we have moved away from a more cultural transference of culture and wisdom to a meritocracy where everybody is entitled to whatever information is available and we that we've we've seen the death of expertise. What we've seen alongside the death of expertise is good traditions like what you're mentioning within Jewish tradition. The things that you were mentioning a couple times, it gave me thoughts about where this is coming from. And i I can't speak to the motivation for everybody, but I think that there is a commonality in that people become impatient, which is a hard word in this dynamic. But I think that with access to all the world's information and a different expectation,
00:36:11
Speaker
professionally, culturally to get things done. I think that this sense of, oh man, I know this is hard and you've been mourning this for two weeks now and maybe we can do something else. Let's take your mind off of this thing. But I think that that has got to be a motivating force for people that want to help but they just don't have the capacity to understand that this can't be forced. This is going to be something that takes time and it is not your timeline, but it's mine. Those are hard things to ask and expect of people now. And maybe I sound very old to say this, but it just seems like that is something that is a reality.
00:36:43
Speaker
For me, it's it's one of those those sidecar intentions that we may not be aware of. ah From a Carl Jung perspective, it's the collective unconscious. yeah it's It is what are the things within our culture that reside within our unconscious that drive us? that we're not aware of, and you just named a handful of them, is is that our relationship with time is different than some other cultures and their relationship with time. And sometimes providing help or coming alongside people when they are going through things like this.
00:37:19
Speaker
We may not even be aware of what pieces of that collective unconscious of how the culture has trained us to believe that there is a formula for how you help. There is a formula for how you go through trauma that I might be approaching somebody who is in the, in the grip.
00:37:37
Speaker
Time is no longer a construct for them. It's not even. It doesn't. register us Yeah. I mean, when we went in, when, when that happened, time disappeared for us. There was only one thing that mattered at that point. It didn't matter what was happening outside. It didn't matter whether things were getting accomplished.
00:37:55
Speaker
All of the things that feed into the movement of our society, Western society, in a linear fashion. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:05
Speaker
not only were we just taken out of it from a heart perspective because our daughter is in limbo time has stopped for us pragmatically any degree of when will we know this piece of information or the things that we would grasp onto that would give us a sense of certainty didn't exist.
00:38:27
Speaker
You don't think you held the same appreciation or value of that time expectation for even the answers that you're wanting and needing in the moment? Do you feel like, oh, we'll find out tomorrow through a test results?
00:38:38
Speaker
Well, that... that It was you learn very quickly that finding out but attaching expectations or hopes to tomorrow's test results.
00:38:48
Speaker
Those test results are not definitive. You get there and you think youre like, OK, we'll be at this form of a finish line on this thing. We can put this piece to bed. What we find ourselves in is early on when everything has become uncertain, the first grasp that we start doing is seeing what we can nail down.
00:39:09
Speaker
Everything's been upended. yeah So which are the things that we can grab onto and we can staple down and say, okay, we don't have to think about those. We don't have to hold them in our head any longer. So we're just going to pin these things down. Sure.
00:39:21
Speaker
What we find is is that our conversations with the doctors, the caregivers, the bedside nurses, and a lot of our questions, a lot of our sense of urgency was not even just to get a picture of where is Claire.
00:39:34
Speaker
It was even to manage our own uncertainty because... yeah We're not built for everything being uncertain. We saw this in COVID when uncertainty came in and everybody didn't know what the future would look like. thats right It actually showed clearly what our relationship with planning, setting goals, that setting goals in the future helps us in the present.
00:39:54
Speaker
that's That's our relationship to those things. And as soon as those things disappear, what went along with it was a sense of identity of like, who am I without these goals that I could, that I can march towards yeah It reminds me very much of when I was learning how to drive and we went to all these classes and they always talked about aim ahead. Straight ahead is where you need to look at Don't look straight ahead of you. You don't look to the site. You're always in the distance and that keeps you driving straight and on task.
00:40:19
Speaker
And once you take that goal away, that perspective element, You're just in the moment and then there's a lot of over corrections. I'm gesturing here with a steering wheel going left and right dramatically. That's a huge piece of our entire lives that we've been groomed to expect in elementary school where I was like, okay, this is what's next. This is what high school is going to be like. And after high school, there's this college thing and there's this career conversation and everything is always about this next, next. What's next? What's next?
00:40:45
Speaker
Taking that away. It's like you have no more ground underneath your feet. Weird. What I like about this lane that we've kind of shifted into temporarily next to this question that we've asked for this is how do you walk alongside someone who is going through trauma?
00:41:00
Speaker
Is that when this person or family has entered into this world of uncertainty, their entire view of the world, what they're experiencing is completely different. Yet what you are experiencing, what I am experiencing next to that person who's in a different world at that point. Right.
00:41:20
Speaker
still is loaded up with all of these things we're talking about. All of the the the cultural pieces around the importance of planning, the importance of investing your time now so that you can retire.
00:41:35
Speaker
All of those pieces, that's the collective unconscious. And that's the part that we oftentimes forget when we show up to give someone help. That's what comes in the room with us. And if we don't pay attention that that's what we potentially are bringing into the room. And that's palpable. You can yeah feel that.
00:41:53
Speaker
Then that's going to put us at risk for doing things to try to help that have conditions attached to them that are non-starters for actually where the world this person is operating at this point.
00:42:05
Speaker
That moment when Claire got injured, I can tell you that we got plugged into something else in the world. Even now, we experience time differently. When we went through COVID and we saw the hand wringing, we had a different relationship to it, largely because of what we had been through before. Our relationship to uncertainty was different.
00:42:29
Speaker
It made us more resilient. and Because we could see what was going on because of our past trauma. If we had gone to the people that were in the process during COVID of dealing with their world falling down, all their plans, and we'd gone to them say, hey, you shouldn't be doing it this way. Oh my gosh. you eat let' We're going to tell you what it looks like on the other side. And this is how you should actually be acting.
00:42:55
Speaker
Now we could say that we wanted to help. Is it helpful to go to people who are in the middle of trauma and start lecturing them on how they should be showing up?
00:43:07
Speaker
I use this as an example because sometimes that is what happens when people are in trauma is that other people who want to help, those who have a strong religious tradition, yeah some people who have found comfort, who have found truth for them,
00:43:24
Speaker
who believe that what is going to be helpful during trauma is convincing the other person of their truth. So if I believe God makes all things work together for those who love the Lord, or that God only gives to those that can handle,
00:43:44
Speaker
these kinds of events, regardless of whether that is true or not, is it my job to go to somebody and convince them that that is the truth yeah simply because I believe it's the truth and it will be helpful?
00:43:59
Speaker
Those were some of the most infuriating statements. And that is pretty common across most people that are going through trauma. They will tell you, and that we have a name for those, and and those are platitudes. For me, the definition of platitude is when it is taking something that gives comfort to you and believing that because it gives comfort to you, that it should give comfort to somebody else. The one size fits all. That's right.
00:44:27
Speaker
gesture or therapy did you i think we've talked about this personally i don't know if we talked about it here did did you ever hear the phrase uh god only gives you what you can handle or something to that effect we heard that we heard the god works all things to good okay we heard many yeah it smarts when you're in it there's a bite to platitudes yeah Yet there are a couple, both Tiffany and will tell you, like there are, and unfortunately this is for the people who were closest to us. When they elected to do that, we had the relationship where there was some snapback. Tiffany has stories of some of the closest family members who might have mentioned a platitude. And there was a retort that came pretty quickly after that. I have the same thing. Yeah.
00:45:12
Speaker
There are others. And I think the further away you get from that inner circle and there is an inner circle, like it's, that's what's needed. Yeah. But the further you get from that inner circle, the more reserves we had to, to look and see that, okay, these people are trying to help, um, and to, to give some grace and compassion. The smarting is still there. The etiquette, the, i don't have the energy for, for even, you know, snapping back with this person. I'm just going to say, thank you. I yeah thank you for trying to help. Thank you.
00:45:42
Speaker
Thank you for kind words or saying those, but understand that is is going back to what we were talking about before is this that I, for most of those people, and I'm not going to say all, because I do believe that there are, and we ran into a couple of individuals that if I experienced a reaction to a platitude that was negative within me, there are some that believe that's a, that's a me problem.
00:46:08
Speaker
And corollary to that with some individuals is is that, wow, if he doesn't want to hear that, then no wonder this is happening to him because he needs to be humbled. And there are individuals out there that believe that speaking the truth is their core job and they have an obligation To say their truth, to speak their truth, regardless of how it's taken, regardless of whether it's, you know, a form of re-traumatizing or causing pain. There are those out there. And yet for Tiffany and I both, we had to choose, you know, we're not going to adjudicate who this person is. Sure.
00:46:45
Speaker
We're going to give the benefit of the doubt that they have good intentions. Our family members had good intentions. They want to take away that pain. our reaction to our family members was probably the more authentic one. And it is the more authentic one. and and And essentially what we're saying when we snap back is, i don't need to be placated right now. I don't need to be talked off of this ledge.
00:47:05
Speaker
I need you to be with me in this pain right now. And if that is too... onerous for you, then just shut up. Don't be here. We're talking about in the moment having some level of resentment or difficulty with people trying to lighten your emotional load.
00:47:25
Speaker
ah And this is in the days and weeks after when Claire got hurt. But you had some resentment about how dare I have the freedom to experience anything less than the same level of pain or difficulty that my daughter is going through. Would you say that that is still present in different ways? Same way, but you hide it well, not at all.
00:47:47
Speaker
What's going on with you in that? it is different yeah part of the shift has been about my relationship to suffering and pain in general that has shifted that in the experiences of just having this conversation of this context it seems like you've done a lot of internal exploration but also external what is this process like what do other people do how have people dealt with grief and loss and this is coming through in big ways as far as the amount of time and energy you've spent in these processes it's funny how much things start to converge around even if i wasn't exploring these things directly whether it's age midlife crisis all the things that go into that it's the confrontation of myself a part of that self has been deeply formative from this event yeah and everything that went into it led up to it what's come after it
00:48:37
Speaker
that piece of me that said my job as a parent is the same before accident as it is after that parenting is hard oh my gosh and we don't get to choose what it is that is going to be presented with us as a parent we have all these qualitative factors to define what it means to carry the load as a parent that some are heavier than others and early on it was this is going to be heavy i didn't get to choose it but i'm not going to seek to alleviate it simply because my relationship too heavy is is onerous it's just another making that decision was at the very least a response to saying like this isn't about me
00:49:22
Speaker
And it was. You're part of it now. Yes. That event didn't exist for me to show how strong I was. For me to thump my chest and say, this needs to be hard so that I can show up as Atlas carrying the world on his shoulders.
00:49:39
Speaker
There's aspects of that I have reflected on that that are part of my strengths of being able to change very quickly and to see what's presented in front of me and say, i don't need to wring my hands or figure out how to escape. This is it.
00:49:54
Speaker
Batten down the hatches and get to it and start moving forward. At the same time, while it is a strength, it can very quickly be turned into a weakness when now it's blinding me. It's being used in service to missing opportunities for what it actually means to be a parent to Claire.
00:50:17
Speaker
I have reframed her and for a period of time is like this is not only is this kind of the accident and the shift to our family a burden, but what happens when that starts translating directly to Claire is a burden?
00:50:31
Speaker
There are times where my strength of, this is the way things are, batten down the hatches, we're going to start running after this, does create sometimes a limit to imagination of what could be.
00:50:45
Speaker
of redefined like At what point do you say, like okay, this is the way things are? Well, at what time do you reopen that and say, these are the conditions, but the possibilities still are very broad. Yeah.
00:50:57
Speaker
And, you know, my reaction to how dare you try to lessen that for me, it's a, it's a, it's a messy mix. It's a mix of saying, i i will honor Claire by carrying this.
00:51:12
Speaker
Yeah. At the same time saying that i I don't know what it is exactly that I'm being asked to carry. And and getting more curiosity around that and changes my relationship, not only to Claire and to others and how they show up, but my relationship to myself. and And it opens up the possibility that asking questions, which was early on saying that how how in the world could something be done like this to...
00:51:43
Speaker
My three-year-old innocent daughter, how could this be allowed? how could How can I live in a world where this exists? And still ah having those questions, but the questions there's broader questions now.
00:51:57
Speaker
I don't know what the world would have been like had she not been injured. We have a beautiful life. yeah Would I want her to experience things more? i don't know if that will ever go away, but I can't also say that without saying that, you know, who she is now and who she is going to continue to become.
00:52:16
Speaker
i don't know if there's a vehicle that would be as powerful as this. And so now I'm in this weird purgatory of, is this a net good or net bad I have fewer answers. My answers then were this, this is what brings meaning as much as I can contribute to this event is me coming alongside her and carrying her figuratively.
00:52:44
Speaker
literally. And that was a, ah over time I've, I've seen that that was not the end of the story. There was more for me to get curious about more for me to learn.
00:52:57
Speaker
I just don't have pat answers any longer that resemble what they did at that point. And I'm okay with that because that's what I needed at that point. And you've also a evolved yeah from wherever that position was, how many of her years ago that was. yeah And, uh,
00:53:12
Speaker
yeah of course the the nature of the questions will change when i look at people that are going through stuff now um i think it's easy for me to be where i am and see that the reminder for me is that it's not my job to breadcrumb the path for them to get where i am even if i think that's what they need or that's what's helpful to them or my first step is we've i've said it a few times is extracting myself from the narrative And seeing them as much as I possibly can through the lens of where they are, not where they need to be, not what I think they need.
00:53:51
Speaker
Well, if that's the case and I can't see those things or i i'm I need to embrace the humility to sit and watch every time I've done that, which is incredibly difficult to do.
00:54:02
Speaker
I'm surprised. Surprised at what? I'm surprised what's presented. What becomes clear as what is needed to help this person that I don't go in with a hypothesis instead of, I think this is going to help them.
00:54:16
Speaker
The opportunity presents itself because frankly, I've quieted myself enough to be able to see it, to hear it. Whether that's them saying something to break the silence, whether that's observing something, small things.
00:54:30
Speaker
Like I, if anything, that's, that's where letting go of my, the demand to convince myself that I have helped is, is a big space for that.
00:54:41
Speaker
The presence of not being alone doesn't change the fact that they are alone. They feel alone in their turmoil and their trauma and their suffering. But there's something about me bordering that, observing, witnessing it, that gives them some degree of relief to take a bite of food or or to fall asleep.
00:55:01
Speaker
And maybe the gentlest, kindest thing that I can do is just covering them with a blanket and then sitting down again and reading a book. That's the question for for me is, can I quiet my own insistence on helping to become an observer for when help is presented?
00:55:19
Speaker
This last passage reminds me very much of what Whitman has written about in that he wrote that no matter what we go through, we go through life alone. And no matter what you say, it's always you that you have nobody else. It has to be you. And I think it's the moments that you just described where people recognize that there's proximity.
00:55:40
Speaker
I know I have to go through the hard thing. There's nobody else that can take that away from me. i have to go to that meeting have to have the hard conversation with this person i have to deal with these questions that are bigger than me but knowing that there are people out there that help in those moments i think makes all the difference and it makes us forget about that solitude that I think we, I'm a firm believer we all go through. i agree. Okay.
00:56:05
Speaker
Well, maybe this is a good place to wrap it up. I think that the parting pieces for, for this and for the entire conversation we've had ah couple of just small reminders for each of these reminders,
00:56:20
Speaker
ah There are more pieces that demand deep reflection. I think the first one I'm going to borrow from one of the greatest movies of all time, which is The Princess Bride. Yes. And it is life is pain.
00:56:35
Speaker
Anybody who tells you differently is selling something. The reason why I use that one also as kind of one of the first reflections is that can be taken any number of directions.
00:56:46
Speaker
and And I can tell you that through the course of our journey, since Claire was injured, every direction that that phrase could be taken, we probably have taken it at some point. wow Nihilistically, fatalistically, and strangely enough, at some point, hopefully.
00:57:04
Speaker
Wow. That's something that through all of this conversation is that where I've ended up is yeah, life is pain and setting aside the negative connotation of that and redefining as life is, is suffering or life is death.
00:57:18
Speaker
We all are going to meet that is that a relationship with whatever we do have here is and invitation to, to myself of what am I going to do with that time that I have through the periods of deep pain through the the highs and The other piece that comes along with that is there is no playbook for it.
00:57:40
Speaker
yeah There is no guarantee. There's no playbook for what I do through the trauma, through the movement into the new normal. There's no playbook for what I do when other people are going through that trauma.
00:57:54
Speaker
The invitation is so be aware, to pay attention, that I have a choice on whether I'm going to treat myself as an object to all these things that are going on, that they're happening to me, or that I have some subjectivity within this, that I get to make choices. And those choices that I make, I might make decisions.
00:58:17
Speaker
from a denial and a defiance perspective that i might try to wrestle back control and there's an aspect of trying to increase number of choices that i have so that i and not beholden to the ones that i think are in front of me and yet through all of that i also have the choice to reflect on How am I showing up? How am i showing up as, as an object that things are happening to me and instead switching to actively participating and not being a passive reactant yet when I do extending myself, the grace and compassion that I'm not going to get it right all the time because there is no playbook for this. You're wording it as you go.
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah, none of us are going to get through this unscathed. And we all know that. That's right. We all know that. That's okay. That's what we're here for is to interact with the alchemy that's going to emerge from the scathing that happens to me and the scathing that I get to to witness.
00:59:14
Speaker
Who am I going to be? Who am I going to continue to to evolve into as that happens? There is no alternative. Pain is part of the deal, isn't it? Well, you and Tiffany have done an amazing job so far. You're an amazing parent, both of you, and great partners for each other. So appreciate you letting me be a part of this in a very small way.
00:59:32
Speaker
Thank you for listening. Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together.
00:59:44
Speaker
If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations. And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com.
Conclusion and Support Reminder
01:00:03
Speaker
Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapahoe, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands. And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame.
01:00:15
Speaker
Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.