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Goodpain Episode No. 007: Loss, Grief, & Recovery – Defiance & Control
136 Plays3 months ago
This session explores defiance as an active response to trauma, particularly the loss of control. Using examples from film and personal experience, the Jeremy & Tyler examine how defiance can be both beautiful (fighting for what matters) and costly (creating collateral damage). The conversation distinguishes between defiance and surrender as opposite responses.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
As a content warning, this episode discuss trauma, healing, grief, involving a child and catastrophe. Due to the sensitive nature of this topic, please take care of yourself.
Podcast Introduction: "Good Pain"
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy to solve.
00:00:19
Speaker
What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom is? Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything between.
00:00:35
Speaker
Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to LeMay the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome the conversation.
Theme of Defiance
00:00:53
Speaker
Welcome back to episode 7 of The Good Pain Podcast, season 1 on loss, grief, and healing. This week starts off a conversation on defiance, following up our conversation last week and the week before around denial. Defiance, we're going to break up also into a two-part discussion, but they're pretty standalone on their own. And the reason for that is because this week we'll be talking about how I showed up, how defiance showed up for me, and in what domains it showed up.
00:01:22
Speaker
Next week, we'll be talking about somebody else and how defiance showed up
Shifting Perspectives: Seeking vs. Becoming
00:01:26
Speaker
for them. During our conversation this week, Jeremy and I talk about a point in this story where my disposition changed, how my relationship changed to some of the events.
00:01:37
Speaker
One of the phrases that I use and explain is is that I went from being a seeker of answers to being the sought or having something else seeking me. And Jeremy, as a good co-host should do, he asked, well, what is that?
00:01:50
Speaker
And I don't have an answer. What I do know right now is that it's my relationship to the desire to want answers that oftentimes gets me in trouble. Rather than being in the process of becoming and letting things reveal themselves, I am oftentimes so enamored with the idea of having an answer so that I can have some degree of certainty in order to move forward that I miss the opportunity to evaluate what my relationship to uncertainty is. In other conversations that I've had on this topic as well, oftentimes people will ask me for some guidance on what is the answer? What is the formula? What can I give to them?
00:02:31
Speaker
For a long time, I responded to that with an idea that what I was going to give to them, whatever answer I had for myself, it was going to be deeply unsatisfactory to them. And what I found even in my response, someone asks me, so what is it?
00:02:47
Speaker
I preface that with the, well, what I'm going to tell you is going to be deeply unsatisfactory. Well, I'm managing their expectations. so I'm managing what they think that they can expect. and when i look back over my own experience with the movement towards getting some glimpses at what answers may look like for me.
00:03:06
Speaker
I trust the process of becoming and those things revealing themselves much more than an answer that is packaged and sanitized based on somebody
Don Quixote and Defiance
00:03:16
Speaker
else's journey. One of the metaphors for me that has been powerful for this picture is what Jeremy and I discussed briefly around Cyrano de Bergeac's Don Quixote and Quixote's lifelong companion, Sancho Panza.
00:03:30
Speaker
Sancho knew Don Quixote's acts of defiance attacking windmills he believed to be giant was not an accurate representation of reality. But he recognized the defiance that was necessary in order to give Don Quixote a sense of meaning and purpose in the moment. And it wasn't Sancho's job to keep Don Quixote from making a fool of himself, from doing something that seemed ridiculous on the outset.
00:04:00
Speaker
When I went through trauma... I chose what windmills I was going to tilt at. Mine showed up professionally. That's the bulk of the conversation and what I reflect on regarding my form of defiance and why it showed up and where it showed up. And one of those was in pursuing a career that took me to the largest healthcare care organization in the world because The windmill I was going to take on was the healthcare care industry.
00:04:25
Speaker
Looking back on that, believe that taking on that giant was just as ridiculous as Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Not because healthcare needs to be changed and reflect our values more.
00:04:38
Speaker
Not because it's something that has become and evolved in industry that has lost sight of what its core purpose actually is. But because believing for me that...
00:04:50
Speaker
I was going to take on this heroic effort by myself to change all of healthcare was hubris. Yet it was what I needed at the time. And that's the nature of the conversation that we really start to explore here around defiance.
00:05:05
Speaker
not as something to cast aspersions in retrospect on those who try to take on windmills, who need to stand in defiance, but more of a part of the journey, part of the process for becoming and being shaped into what we need to be, not for what we can see today, but for some of the things that will be on the horizon or beyond that horizon that we have
Acceptance vs. Surrender: Control Discussion
00:05:28
Speaker
yet to see. And for that, it invites compassion,
00:05:31
Speaker
and grace and kindness for those that may be using defiance as a means for hiding or for a means for just surviving through that day. And the bigger question we need to ask ourselves is how do we come alongside those who are in that mode of defiance?
00:05:47
Speaker
And rather than correct them, rather than seek to humble them, rather than try to get them to have correct thinking about the world and what they're seeing, that we come alongside them. And when they're tilting at windmills, we hand them the javelin. We carry their armor. We support them. We walk alongside them.
00:06:03
Speaker
Thank you for walking alongside us again in this episode. We're glad you're here for the conversation. We hope you enjoy it.
00:06:14
Speaker
What do you think is the opposite of defiance? Yeah, I think the low-lying truth there is acceptance. Which is the same word we use for denial. We're running in the same circles, aren't we? i choose a slightly different word, similar vein.
00:06:29
Speaker
It's surrender. Yeah. and And whereas acceptance is is the adoption of of that truth as real, for me, surrender is the relinquishing of the control.
00:06:44
Speaker
And and for me, denial, we've talked about denial being a part of of control complex and maintaining control. I think that there is a subtle difference with denial being a little bit more on the sanity. You know, I cannot I i don't.
00:06:59
Speaker
um The new reality is one that that I cannot accept. Versus the new reality is one that I surrender to And I think then puts us on a path towards what do you do with that surrender? It is you collaborate with it.
00:07:15
Speaker
I think that you can move to collaboration from surrender ah little bit more directly than you can from acceptance. It's interesting because just processing your take on this, I'm hearing a very clear expectation about being proactive.
00:07:34
Speaker
So acceptance, I can be proactive in how I deal with these, how I manage this, how I do whatever. Whereas surrender, there's a real passiveness with this. And I think that's worth teasing out.
00:07:45
Speaker
The way I would describe this is a way that I've started exploring even things that have changed in me over the last several years, but even more importantly, probably over the last year, is shifting from a belief and in a way even of describing myself as a seeker or as an explorer and realizing that no longer do I actually describe myself that way. oh I describe myself not as a seeker, but as the sought that there is something else seeking me yeah this is my first question i was going to start by saying by whom bigger context is by what
00:08:23
Speaker
without going down a metaphysical path of of of that i would say the most direct explanation that i would give is being hounded by the highest version of myself yeah and and whether that is reflected in a higher deity a higher intelligence whatever that i think that is something we will end up discussing in ah different series a different season than this um it's right there at the surface though yeah it is leads to those types of yeah or discourse when we start talking about trauma automatically we we ask the questions of of the why why is this in the world and those kinds of things but i have gotten to a point where surrender is is a humbling to the fact that i don't have control yeah
00:09:13
Speaker
it is a It is a humbling to the fact that any attempts to wrestle back control, it is incisive in continuing to humble me further and almost nothing else.
00:09:27
Speaker
Now, what I believe when I'm trying to wrestle back control is is that I can control, that I have the ability to direct the future. this is the hope that i think we all need to grasp a hold of at some point yes for various reasons if i heard you correctly you keep coming back to the point that there's recognition that that's not based on any type of reality that is racist it's not yeah that that doesn't absolve us from decision making from from having choices presented to us to you know in in the situation with claire we are active participants in making decisions in dealing with uncertainty
00:10:03
Speaker
That looking out and saying, we don't know what path any of this is going to take ultimately.
Medical Defiance and Hope
00:10:09
Speaker
Right. However, believing that through force of will or defiantly saying that physics is not going to apply here. Anatomy and physiology isn't going to apply here. all the doctors are wrong. Yes, we're going to figure out yeah that there is something that that cracks the case.
00:10:29
Speaker
We could outwill, outlove, outsmart, ah out whatever. And what overcomplicates this or or complicates it further is the fact that we we do need to try some different things.
00:10:40
Speaker
This is the irony of the whole thing, isn't it? Because you can't control turning this thing off, right? Because you'd be incredibly passive and arguably unhealthy if you jump quickly to passivity.
00:10:52
Speaker
And um yeah, so you have to go through these motions. But it takes a certain level of exploration or journey or epic source of dealing with asking the hard questions to get to the point of recognizing, okay, there's things I can do, there's things I can't.
00:11:07
Speaker
I think last time we spoke, I had relayed that we had gotten news about a family member who had been diagnosed right since we spoke. Uh, he passed away. Oh no.
00:11:20
Speaker
And, and I, I look at, wow, that was very fast. It was very fast. I'm sorry. It is heartbreaking in ways that many of us were not anticipating.
00:11:31
Speaker
I can't ascribe whether that's too to the speed it with it moved or just... It doesn't matter. Yeah, it's just is a very tangible felt pain that I had not experienced in a long time.
00:11:43
Speaker
But from the time he was diagnosed to the time that he passed, we saw the full gamut of of denial, of defiance.
00:11:53
Speaker
There's a beauty in the defiance. So let's talk about that because we've talked about denial last week and I certainly didn't mean to cut you off with telling of this person's story, but beauty in the defiance. Can you explain a little bit about what that has been like, felt like with your you and your family surrounding this current passing and also in other ways that it might have impacted your life?
00:12:19
Speaker
we We've used this word a few times, which is clarity or or the clarifying aspect of these kinds of events, trauma, a diagnosis like this that is shocking, comes out of the blue, is unexpected.
00:12:32
Speaker
Sure. What we get is the opportunity to really rationalize what is worth fighting for, even if we fight for it in ways that are tilting at windmills. Hmm.
00:12:42
Speaker
Hmm. You know the story of Cyrano de Bergec, we laugh at it because it seems so clear that he's living in a world that most of us are not, you know, a world of giants that that we know are windmills.
00:12:59
Speaker
And yet, especially told through the lens of his compatriot, yeah Who is eternally loyal to him, who goes along with him, who hands him his weapons so that he can go and attack these structures. Believing that he is on a mission, that he has something to fight for, is a reminder to us that even at times when when we feel all hope is lost, we grasp for something to give us hope.
Beauty in Defiance Against Odds
00:13:29
Speaker
yeah and i think that defiance sometimes saying i'm going to look this disease i'm going to look this event squarely in the eyes i'm going to square up against it and i'm going to say you're not getting past me there's a whole lot to unbundle there of what that actually means ah yet i think the simple aspect here is we have an opportunity to show people how much they care about us and sometimes defiance is the language that we use
00:13:56
Speaker
To say, I'm not going to let this diagnosis, this disembodied explanation be the thing that determines your value to me.
00:14:08
Speaker
I think there is a deep sense of beauty when in the face of great odds, even odds they may not understand, people say, i know what's most important to me and this is what I want and I'm willing to suspend reality.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah. In order to to hold on to that for a while longer. And what is the harm in that? There are there are very real harms that can come from that. We know that when we were looking at what are the potential modalities we could go about trying to get Claire better.
00:14:41
Speaker
We evaluated hyperbaric oxygen chambers, hippotherapy, going to far-flung parts of of the of the domestic world, the international world, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, trying things out.
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. And we drew a line at a different point than other parents have. The reason we did that is because in our situation and what we were weighing was making a decision on when do we recognize that there are additional costs that are associated with going out and spending this money that could be invested elsewhere.
Costs of Alternative Medical Pursuits
00:15:19
Speaker
Sure.
00:15:20
Speaker
We never want to reduce as parents. It's to a financial explanation, but we do have to say. That's still valid. Yes. That's a valid factor. Yeah. it we We have to say that making our decisions, if money were no object, would we still choose to go and do some of these things? Well, some of the other costs are. Not financial.
00:15:43
Speaker
They're not financial. Some of those costs are what is the toll that it takes on her sisters watching her go through and be a living experiment? Well, the question then we have to ask is how effective is this?
00:15:57
Speaker
Is it something that actually can yield what we're looking for? And this is where we get into the very big ethical questions around well there is such a thing as snake oil salesman sure and people who are trading on hopes and yeah that's what we're living on early on in this stage with claire and and that hope is bolstered by a message of defiance that says this can be beat yes the defiance if i'm hearing correctly the defiance was motivated by wanting to prolong hope and needing as a parent to do everything in your power to explore every possible option accurate so the defiance though is interesting because i'm hearing you frame that against the medical establishment and trying to seek alternative methods but
00:16:49
Speaker
I'm also getting the sense that there's another another direction by which this defiance conversation played as part or a role or or as part of the conversation. You mentioned surrender. Surrender. Yeah.
00:17:01
Speaker
And with that, I think that there is a conscious effort to recognize I've tried these things. The defiance played a part in this, but it's not the method that I i need to continue or to pursue because there was some element of recognition that yeah that's that's no longer going to be sustainable. Was there other means by which defiance played its role here?
00:17:24
Speaker
I think the predominant other means, this is going to be me speaking on behalf of some others who were having conversations with me and that we were sharing and what was going on, is that for some of the people who were close to Claire, close to us, Defiance took on not just a clinical task or mountain to be climbed. It was their own spiritual journey. It was their...
00:17:50
Speaker
It was the defiance against the makings of the universe that would allow something like this to happen or whether there was a deity that would allow it to happen or, and the defiance showed up in a way. can can I interrupt you before I continue? You're talking about people imposing more of a philosophical or a dogmatic question in the moment that you could care less about having those conversations because you're smarter men throughout time have had those debates and yet we still continue to have them this was maybe not helpful for you and what you and your family needed to make progress move on find other avenues of hope yes it was seems like unsensitive to where you needed support and yeah not guidance but at least mentorship or just presence
00:18:39
Speaker
When you're a parent who is in a situation like this, there is a siren call to comparing to what other parents are doing and then tallying that up on how good a parent you are being. And that happens not only by parents who are in the grip of this, but the valence electrons around these situations, the other family members,
00:19:03
Speaker
It reminds me, there's a documentary called Gleason about a former NFL player ah for the New Orleans Saints who at very young age was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Gehrig's. And... There's this very specific scene where they go to a faith healing ceremony. And it's very clear that that the father wants to believe, wants to defiantly say that his son is not going to be subject to the laws of this disease. He's going to be subject to the laws of of a higher being. Okay.
00:19:40
Speaker
For which the father believes that through means of faith, through means of saying, be healed, you can he can be healed. And on the other side is his wife who is just devastated in the middle of this ceremony in a church where they are attempting to perform a faith healing.
00:20:04
Speaker
And she is livid at not being seen for where she is. And that's what I hear what you just said. Nobody's recognizing that she was not buying in.
00:20:14
Speaker
She's not buying in and nobody's meeting her where she is, which is... No sensitive to at all....is every day taking care and watching her husband deteriorate while she's also taking care of their toddler child who they got pregnant within a very short period after he was diagnosed. Wow.
00:20:33
Speaker
I think that's a picture of conflicting perspectives and stages at which people are in dealing with a very fluid situation that has not yet been decided. And i say that a little bit tongue in cheek.
Pressure of Support Systems
00:20:48
Speaker
For some people, it has been decided and they're well down the path on accepting.
00:20:53
Speaker
They're not denying. they They've maybe not, they're not even going to try to defy it. they're They're in the process of surrendering. Sure. Sure. And then others who are not there yet. And how do you deal with that? How do you deal with particularly when you're agent one and two, Tiffany and i are primary agents making the decisions, dealing with it.
00:21:14
Speaker
But we're getting tremendous support from people who care. They want to help. with And in their denial, in their defiance, they're inflicting more pain. yeah And I know we've gotten to a point now where we're talking about the downsides or and and or or the costs defiance. I start out talking about the beauty of defiance.
00:21:32
Speaker
The point is, is that it's both. It yields tremendous beauty in watching that scene in Gleason and the dad and the hope that he's holding onto that that this will work.
00:21:46
Speaker
Yeah. He is powerless to heal his son. sure And he wants to acquire the power. And this morning I i spoke with another friend and and I'm going to test a language that I was using this morning and and whether this might fit even this construct we've talked about of denial, defiance, and then what we'll eventually get to is collaboration is I think right now within the broader conversation around mental health, around self-actualization, people have started using the phrase, you know, it's not either or, it's both and.
00:22:23
Speaker
And for me, that's a in that probably speaks a little bit of at least denial or defiance on the either or side. yeah And then a a both and which is that collaborative approach.
00:22:35
Speaker
But I feel there's something missing in that because what I find and even in myself I've found this is is that binary thinking of either or I think speaks a little bit more of a denial mentality of my daughter is either going to get better or she's not going to get better and right now I'm going to deny the not getting better.
00:22:56
Speaker
But going then into the defiance piece, I think we switch to a, okay, we're accepting that she's not going to get better. And instead we move, we don't move directly to a both and. And what we don't talk about is is that what, what we, so where we actually stop. And it's the, we move from the either or to the, if then, and it's this cracking, this code that we believe if we do this, then we will get this result.
00:23:23
Speaker
In the parlance of grief, we could talk about this with denial. And this is what defiance is, is some sort of the bargaining aspect. Yeah. and what I don't want us to forget is is that in that picture of Steve Gleason's dad doing the bargaining, doing the if then, if we have faith, then he will be be healed. Yeah.
00:23:43
Speaker
is reflective of the very deep pain, anguish, and grief that he does not have the current tools. And what we're watching is the tools being fostered and nurtured in a way that also has collateral damage.
00:24:01
Speaker
Steve Gleason's wife. Yeah. who's already there, who now is having to be re-traumatized. And I think that's the part that makes it very difficult is is that there is this beauty. and But within the reasons for why we are only able to act defiantly at this point in time, we also have a risk of creating more collateral damage and injuring those who at that point are the least resourced to deal with more damage.
Navigating Trauma with Support
00:24:32
Speaker
least resourced people to deal with additional trauma, coupled with people who are oftentimes less prepared to provide the support, all of the stuff that would possibly be less invasive in the emotional status of the people that kind of need to process and deal.
00:24:51
Speaker
And so you have this very, very strange dynamic of oppositional forces and all kind of trying to find your way through a system. that seems problematic it's my son can i take this yes take it well the question then is you need to go get him i do apparently yeah uh shoot sorry da no it's fine i would like to have defiance to um all the stuff i need to be doing I've left this part in here because life happens.
00:25:25
Speaker
And at this point, Jeremy and I were interrupted by the duties of parenthood. And after we return from the break, we'll get back into the story, picking up three weeks after in the conclusion of this episode's discussion on defiance, surrender, acceptance.
00:25:53
Speaker
are Emergency! I need to borrow some wisdom. My life is falling apart. um Petty, you can't just borrow wisdom like you borrow our wifi password. Speaking of which, what is it again?
00:26:08
Speaker
Password123? No, buddy. It's boundaries exist- Wait, that's not the point. um Look, I heard you guys talking about some good pain thing through the wall. You were listening through the walls again?
00:26:25
Speaker
walls are thin. Sue me. What's this goodpainco.com about? It's a podcast and newsletter about navigating life's challenges. Perfect.
00:26:36
Speaker
You just download it to my brain like a software update?
00:26:42
Speaker
Betty, you have to actually subscribe yourself. Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Wait, I have to do something? I thought you just osmosis it to me?
00:26:54
Speaker
What?
00:26:57
Speaker
That's not how personal growth works. Fine. But I'm leaving a five-star review that says my neighbors made me do this. um
00:27:13
Speaker
Welcome back to the rest of the episode.
00:27:22
Speaker
Last week, the last time we recorded, we were talking about the subject that's leading to today. And something that I was thinking about in preparation of today was the the phrase it used advocates for self-protection.
00:27:37
Speaker
I think it had to do with the community of people that surround those that are going through tragedy and tragic times. The part about this is that they sometimes push in directions that are not truly beneficial to the person who desperately needs to have help, guidance, easing of some level of something, whatever the something is in their life.
00:28:01
Speaker
And it was really interesting how you frame that to talk about these advocates, how they're not really benefiting the person who's in question. And I found that to be really enlightening.
00:28:12
Speaker
The nature of the word self-protection or protection and being able to define that yeah before and after a traumatic event or something that's, that's life-changing.
00:28:24
Speaker
It's tenuous that those two definitions are going to match. If you were to ask me, what does someone that is an advocate or helping to protect you, me, before an event, I'm going to define it in a way that is in line with what I feel is important, worth protecting. The people that are helping and and coming alongside are the ones who are helping me live life.
00:28:52
Speaker
that are helping me become a better version of myself, that are helping me fulfill my aspirational, idealized, actualized view of who I want to be with my family, with myself, with my friends. And those are the people that that we say are friends, are allies, and are advocates.
00:29:12
Speaker
When there's a significant event that occurs, like Claire and her near drowning, the thing that I most want to protect is in peril.
00:29:23
Speaker
For me, I only knew to protect one thing. Yeah. And and that was the the unit that I had with my family. What you had known. Yeah. We had people that had offered to help watch Autumn and Heidi while we were getting a little bit of our bearings straight.
00:29:39
Speaker
My mom and my sister were the first family members to get down here the next day. My dad shortly followed. My in-laws followed after that. we we had an outpouring of advocates yeah who were coming down to to advocate for something. And what I find is is that a lot of those people are lost, as they should be,
00:30:00
Speaker
New territory. Yes. yeah And looking for ways to protect. And it is that but that drives some of the confusion is people are protecting for different things.
Challenges with Insurance and Advocacy
00:30:11
Speaker
yeah I didn't even know what I was protecting other than my family just being together. That was the only constant up to your point, yeah up to that point in your life. Yes. There were the other things we talked about, which was CPS investigations or social services investigations, battling with insurance, which is going vary widely for for the entire population. We at the time had a...
00:30:37
Speaker
really good insurance plan we have over the last 13 almost 14 years had varying degrees of good insurance plans and I am thankful that at that point in time we had an insurance plan that was was not some of the other insurance plans we have had before and I am deeply empathetic for families who have to deal with subpar insurance plans yeah when something like this happens.
00:31:03
Speaker
All that being said, being advocates to people who are going through these things, like we've discussed, is highly variable. Yeah. Yeah. there There's just, we want to see things as a straight line.
00:31:16
Speaker
Oftentimes before being in distress or we don't see the cracks in what we believe are solid foundations. Yeah. yeah There were times when people came alongside us.
00:31:27
Speaker
I think one of the easiest ways to to point point this out, one of the most accessible ways is that when people tried to protect some of the cracks that they might have seen emerging, there was a risk that they were keeping those cracks from emerging that needed to emerge.
00:31:44
Speaker
That was the part that you landed on last time that I think was really amazing. And i think I probably said the same thing then, but just a really wise perspective on that process. And everybody has to go through it. And you've illustrated how that's been beneficial in your life. And I think that it's it's one of those things that nobody could ever prepare for.
00:32:05
Speaker
unless you're in the midst of it. And then you realize only after what went well, what went better, nothing in that is going to be easy. But what are the things that were also not helpful?
00:32:16
Speaker
And it wasn't for ill will. It wasn't for people that didn't want to be there in giving and supporting in the right ways. But knowing that was was a real big challenge and an ask that many people will not be prepared to give.
00:32:29
Speaker
The question that it brings up for me is, is the perceived pain on crumbling down yeah greater than the prolonged pain of trying to continue propping up that which needs to fall down?
00:32:43
Speaker
yeah I don't have an answer for that. I can't say these things deserve to fall down. These things do not. When Claire was injured and we let certain things fall to pieces, like certain relationships, yeah we don't we don't have the time for...
Post-Trauma Adjustments
00:32:59
Speaker
in No way. as as you As we get further away from the event itself and we start resuming or figuring out what normal life is going to look like, certain pressures start reemerging, even if that's maintaining certain relationships, returning back to work, going to social things.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah. some of the classic things that tiffany and and i have have wrestled with before and after is if there's something that i get invited to that i don't want to go to but i feel like i i should i should make an appearance yeah what is that yeah what what what what is driving that impulse to to go to go do something to and and i think you're You're talking to the wrong guy. As a hard-nosed introvert, I have never had that compulsion. Yeah. I should probably, I don't want to do this, but i should probably go anyway. Yes.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah. Never bothered me a day in my life to figure that out. So you have social things, exercise. You have like all these different things, things we should do.
00:34:03
Speaker
The clarity that comes from trauma doesn't mean that should leaves your vocabulary. It just might wait you out a while. an interesting way to frame that. When we talk about the degree of things that happen after trauma, whether relationships are fractured beyond repair, whether that's the nuclear relationship between you know mom and dad, whether that is with other people, we we sometimes get to a point where reintegrating back into polite society becomes an increasing pressure.
00:34:38
Speaker
We get better at managing the new normal. we get We get better at navigating the push and pull of what we want, what we don't want. And yet the asks on us continue.
00:34:51
Speaker
As those asks continue... We have a choice and we've talked about one of the choices that's available is is that we we deny that the situation is changing, that that things are coming forward that are asking for us, that we need to balance that. or the next one, which is we we start to to defy some of those things. That was more how mine showed up.
00:35:10
Speaker
my My defiance showed up in in a way that for me had already started prior to Claire, which is again, you know, a picture here is is that those cracks that were were there in certain aspects of of what I held as being more firm than they really were, those cracks were there and and they just got exacerbated. they They became more apparent. my defines showed up in actually license for breaking some of the things down myself some of which i i would say even now i haven't fully resolved mine mine was professionally prior to claire's accident i was deeply disenfranchised disillusioned by corporate environments yeah i'm not saying anything that is uncommon yeah In my experience, so much of American working professionals are disillusioned by that. And yet we we go in, we log our time, we do the work.
00:36:10
Speaker
This is the way it is. right Prior to Claire's accident, my means for doing that, being a white-collar worker with certain professional standards, I got my first tattoo then, you know which as a good Christian boy who was raised... um You know, who had left the church at that time as well. Yeah. It was, I was doing everything that I was supposed to do is as a participant in the illusion in that view of, yeah, professional climbing, the professional ladder is going to make me happy.
00:36:42
Speaker
yeah It's supposed to make me happy. It's a bill of goods I think we've all been sold. Absolutely. And it's is ludicrous and obscene that so many people blindly go into it. I say this very much as somebody who has bucked that system all of my life, but I also have been around this conversation long enough to realize that there's some truth to the fact that this is not where happiness comes from. This is not the joy creation that I think we're intended to to be experiencing.
Disenchantment with Corporate Life
00:37:09
Speaker
And those are things I knew prior to Claire's accident. but sure But then this this thing happens. Claire gets injured. And it was my license to just embrace defiance wholeheartedly.
00:37:22
Speaker
yeah And frankly, for a period of time, people were more than happy to glom on to that. I had co-workers who, as I'm sharing with them, like, I just, in light of what's happened, I frankly don't care. Yeah. was licensed to them. It resonated deeply with them. They're like, oh man, I want to not care. yes yeah For me, my professional career, the cracks that were there, now it's wildly exposed.
00:37:48
Speaker
As I start having to go back to work, right having to re-engage, having to plot what my career path was going to be. so what period of time are you talking about that you were with your family, dealing with transitions and and then starting back to the workforce.
00:38:06
Speaker
There were six weeks that that I was basically had full license to whatever take a complete leave of absence, yeah be bedside for Claire, focused on that. Wow.
00:38:18
Speaker
And then I started to reintegrate back into the team that I was a part of poorly. Yeah, I'm sure. it was pantomime. I wasn't there. Do you think that not that this matters at all, but I i don't think there's any illusion that you were not fully invested into the conversations that were happening at work.
00:38:38
Speaker
Do you think other people were able to track that as well? And like, well, yes, your mind is somewhere else. Oh, we're going to absolutely allowances. Okay. Absolutely. And they they were happy to do that. And they should. This is bringing up a couple of things that I think are quirky about human behavior.
00:38:52
Speaker
Because i was in that place, there was also people that as part of their support for it became very transparent about the amount of effort that they actually put into the job that matched my effort. after the tragedy because it was almost permission giving they're like hey look yeah in a 40 hour work week i was likely putting in somewhere between five and ten hours of actual work and everyone's saying like that's more than we need from you at this point yeah okay
00:39:24
Speaker
But I had one person come up to me and said, Hey, just so you know, i clock maybe an hour in a week of actual work. I'm laughing because I knew this is where you're going to go. Yes. I have never heard the story before, but yeah, that makes sense.
00:39:37
Speaker
And he said, I've managed, I love this job because I've managed to get my MBA. Oh my gosh. I sit in there doing my homework. I've got my MBA. I've gotten them to pay for it. it's Brilliant.
00:39:50
Speaker
And he just starts going down the list. This is the whole office base. Yes. Yes. And he was not the only one. I had multiple people who came who he came up and just said, you know, hey, don't.
00:40:02
Speaker
Why are they doing this? Because what they're trying to do is to say, whatever pressure you're feeling right now. and carrying. We know that what you're really focused on is the same things we would want to be focusing on. The least I can do to you is share my actual work schedule, which I've been pantomiming for the last six years yeah of saying, you know, this person is basically telling me for six years, I've been pulling a paycheck down.
00:40:30
Speaker
And I love this job because I'm pulling a paycheck down and not logging the hours that anybody thinks I am. Yeah. the The funny thing is, is the number of people that came up to me and and mentioned that wow is a is a very high number, which points to that so much of the workforce, the corporate workforce, is is an emperor wears no clothes situation where everybody themselves knows they themselves are able to be productive, are able to be efficient, are able to produce at a certain level, that level is well below maybe the 50% threshold for the 48-hour
Workplace Engagement Post-Trauma
00:41:05
Speaker
workweek.
00:41:05
Speaker
And I think we saw this in recent times and why we're having such a big backlash is is that this illusion that butts in seats, hours logged, is what equals productivity. And success in some ways, right? It's just comical. Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker
You know, when Tiffany and i you know, we were raised in the ah non-denominational church and that was very emphatic on staying chaste until married.
00:41:32
Speaker
yeah ah We did not. And we were found out in in the a way that publicly most people are found out. We got pregnant. Yeah.
00:41:42
Speaker
And we were engaged at the time. we were planning on getting married 10 months later. Okay. Found out we're pregnant and accelerated that. Not full shotgun wedding. Sure, sure. But we accelerated that. In the interest of keeping up appearances, much like a workforce that is working 40 hours a week. Is this is where we're going? Yeah. It wasn't accelerated for keeping up appearances. So it was accelerated um more for if we were to actually look at the real reason, that some of the primary drivers were probably is is that Tiffany would continue to fit into her dress if we got it three months
Societal Pressures and Personal Decisions
00:42:17
Speaker
later. this the heard. And the enhancement that pregnancy has on the chest region would look really good for the fixtures. And so I think that was probably the more accurate reasons why we accelerated. It's so funny in the motivations that we find important.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah. It's for Tiffany and i yeah pragmatically also waiting as long as we were for a wedding. It didn't make sense for us. Sure.
00:42:45
Speaker
At the age that we were, you know, younger and stupid. Yeah. The truth is, is that the sooner we got down to the struggle of early marriage, the better we needed to By the time that we got engaged, we we were married.
00:42:58
Speaker
But to bring this all back to the other thing of what we were saying, like this illusion of waiting until marriage when we got pregnant, that illusion was blown up when every single couple we knew as comfort yeah told us. Did it also confide? Yeah.
00:43:17
Speaker
By the way, we didn't make it. We just didn't get caught. And and that was that disillusionment happened all almost immediately for me.
00:43:32
Speaker
In the same way that the disillusionment for you know after Claire's accident was... Seismic it was the deals the the disillusion of the cracks had already started yeah prior to that but now there was Nothing holding up the illusion of keeping up pretenses keeping up appearances it was decimated and for me i have had maybe two stops in my career in the last 14 years that I was able to align my authenticity
00:44:05
Speaker
to the job that i was doing you know in a way that worked but any job that has requested that i participate in an illusion yeah i'm having none of it sure none of it which is why i now work for myself that's how for me i took a joy a defiance in giving the finger to my career and saying And frankly, not even just to my career, to the career that I was supposed to have by everyone that had- Supposed to air quotes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and and And that that has been instrumental.
Defiance as Motivation for Transformation
00:44:44
Speaker
I don't know if that, you know, for for me following trauma, I think a number of people experience that. I've talked with number of people who don't find the same satisfaction in their job that they did beforehand, which is a little bit different. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
00:44:57
Speaker
And, yeah but those are some of the flavors. Mine was, was purely like, I'm going to blow all of this up. My attitude towards work became much more about doing things of meaning.
00:45:10
Speaker
And that meaning based on the type of work that I do was justified, or I felt would be most authentic with blowing up things that are broken. Which is why I've been, was in healthcare for as long as I was, is i wanted, my defiance was going to be that how, how dare we systematize or build a institution that dehumanizes people to the degree that it has.
00:45:39
Speaker
and I am going to stand in direct opposition to that and take the body blows for it and, and And there was an aspect of defining myself based on that standing in opposition started to compromise who I was and who I who i could be and who I needed to be yeah for my family as time went on.
00:46:02
Speaker
a family that needed me to be present, a family that needed me to be whole. And the journey is not over. i hate that phrase. the the The process, the evolution, whatever it is is not over.
00:46:14
Speaker
But that defiance is playing a pretty significant role to getting me to where I need to be. And before I say kind of where that is, i think it begs for actually reaching for a a stronger example of that character arc, which is not me.
00:46:34
Speaker
And that comes from somebody else.
00:46:38
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to GoodPain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
00:46:57
Speaker
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00:47:14
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. will see you next time.