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E200: The Sims Family
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On October 22, 1966 many in Tallahassee had made plans to watch the Florida State Football game. Three of the five members of the Sims family, however, had stayed at home: dad Robert (42), mom Helen (34), and daughter Joy (12). When oldest daughter Norma (17) came home at 11pm, she found the television on but none of her family was crowded around it as she would normally find them. Going next to her parents’ bedroom, it was there that she saw a horrifying scene. She found her parents and her baby sister had been bound, gagged, and left for dead. What law enforcement has NEVER found was the killer or killers.
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Transcript
Childhood Reflections and City Safety
00:00:00
Speaker
If we all think back in our lives, most of us can remember the moment that stole our childhood. Maybe it was the death in the family or a move to a new school that made you question all that you thought you knew about life at a young age. For me, I think that day was when my granny died. My granny created so much magic for all of my cousins. The ordinary was turned into the extraordinary. Each day spent with her was filled with laughter and hugs and joy.
00:00:26
Speaker
The day she died, my world became a little darker at the age of 11. I started to understand what death was and the world I once knew, full of magic and dreams, became a little more real.
Introduction to the Sims Family Murder
00:00:38
Speaker
Beyond the idea of a person losing some of their innocence is the idea of an entire city realizing that maybe they may not be as safe as they once thought they were. Sometimes an event rocks a city so hard they begin locking their doors when deadbolts used to remain open because there was never any need to lock them anyways.
00:00:57
Speaker
The case we're going to discuss today was the reason one large city found people locking their doors at night. Women feeling water guns with ammonia to better fight off an attacker. Children being kept home from play dates and local figures discussing if Halloween should be canceled. Religious members also began to question the trustworthiness of their pastors when one local pastor found himself a suspect in a brutal homicide.
00:01:22
Speaker
Police searched on foot for the person responsible for the death of three family members. But 57 years later, this can be still wondering who killed this family and why.
Hosts and Mission Introduction
00:01:33
Speaker
This is the story of the Sims family murders.
00:02:10
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:02:19
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive.
Celebrating 200 Episodes
00:02:43
Speaker
So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:02:47
Speaker
Alison, before we start recording tonight, or I guess we're already recording, but before we get into the juice of the episode, I thought that we should take just a second to acknowledge a huge accomplishment, not just for us, but for also our sleuthounds. I know. This is big. Yeah. Because today you are listening to our 200th episode. That is wild. Which is nuts.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, I cannot believe we've been doing this for 200 episodes.
Parallels in Crime Cases
00:03:22
Speaker
And I never thought, you know, back in 2019, when we sat in the classroom and was like, Hey, you want to start a podcast? Yeah, sure. I never imagined that we would get to the 200th episode. I know.
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, and all the listeners that we have, not only here in the US, but across the globe, and oh my goodness, I'm just overjoyed. Yeah, because I remember when we posted the first episode, we were like, nobody's going to listen to this. We'll be happy if we have 50 people listen. Right. That'll be success. And now we have thousands of people that listen each week, which is mind-blowing. Tens of thousands.
00:04:07
Speaker
which is why it's crazy. You know, it's been a lot of work, but honestly, I feel like worth it. Definitely. And especially when you think about the families who we've been able to just be another voice and get those stories out there and oh man, there's nothing that compares. Yeah. And we wouldn't be where we are without
00:04:36
Speaker
our sleuthounds that listen in each week. We have made friends. Our sleuthounds are not listeners. They are friends. Yeah, agree. And so here's to 200 more episodes. That's right. That's right. Let's keep it going. May as well at this point. We're committed now. That's right.
Night of the Sims Murders
00:04:59
Speaker
So today's case reminds me slightly. And it's kind of a stretch, but it
00:05:06
Speaker
Maybe you'll see it. Evelyn Hartley's case, that was episode 163. Because not really so much in the details of the case, but more so in the context of some of the things that take place during the episode are kind of similar.
00:05:28
Speaker
I mean, nothing like, you know, losing a shoe or finding the shoe or anything like that. But just like in Evelyn's case, today's case also begins with the football game because remember in her story, she was babysitting for like a professor. And this case also involves babysitting. There's how I made my connection. I gotcha. I'm following. So we're going to go back.
00:05:58
Speaker
to October 22nd, 1966, when almost everyone in the then much smaller town of Tallahassee had made plans to watch the Florida State football game. So because of that, a lot of the younger people in town were called upon for their babysitting services because parents were like at the game or at watch parties or things like that. Right, right.
00:06:26
Speaker
So because of that, the streets and the typically on any game night, the streets of Tallahassee would pretty much be empty because everyone went to the games or went somewhere to watch the game. So there wasn't a lot of people just out and about, you know, especially how the game was on. Right there inside the bar, inside a home watching on the TV. But on this particular night, there was one family which consisted of 42 year old dad named Robert.
00:06:56
Speaker
Mom Helen, who was 34, daughter Joy, who was 12, daughter Judith, who was 15, and daughter Norma, who was 17. This family didn't go to the game, or most of them didn't, and they didn't go to like any type of watch party. They stayed home at their home on Merrill Court Drive. Okay. So I guess they're just not into football or? You know, I never really,
00:07:25
Speaker
Now I never really read anywhere why they stayed home and not all of them did stay home. I read that 15 year old Judith and listen, the names in this were a little bit confusing for this to be a like more notorious crime for Tallahassee. There was a lot of details in this that like not everybody was on the same page.
00:07:54
Speaker
And they were doing their research and writing about it. A lot of conflicting information. Yeah, because in some articles I read that Judy, or Judith, I'm assuming this is the one they called Judy, that was never really clarified in what I read, was babysitting. And Norma and Jeanette, but various articles called her Jeanie, and I'm assuming Jeanie and Jeanette's the same person, was at the game.
Discovery of the Crime Scene
00:08:25
Speaker
Okay, so hold on. So we have the family, mom and dad, and there are three daughters, 17 year old Norma, 15 year old Judith, and then 12 year old Joy. But Judith, the middle daughter, was away babysitting at another home.
00:08:50
Speaker
According to some sources. Yeah. Okay. According to some sources and oldest daughter, Norma, she was at the game. So really the only ones at home are mom, dad, and the 12 year old Joy. Yeah. And there are some say that say Norma was also babysitting. So there's like some Oh, okay. But she was away. Yeah. Nonetheless. Okay. Yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
And then there's some that don't even mention Judith at all in the research. It's like the middle daughter syndrome in a Brady Bunch. Right. There's Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just gets forgotten about apparently. But, but in most of like the bigger like sources that you and I would look at, they did.
00:09:44
Speaker
mentioned Judith and a lot of them said that Norma was at the game. So that's where we're going with or what we're going with. But I mean, regardless of really what they were doing, it doesn't change how the story pans out. So while everyone in town appeared
00:10:02
Speaker
Like everything in town appeared to be normal. There was actually something very horrific happening in town. So as Florida State fans celebrated a 10 to one victory over Mississippi State, one family was literally dying. Wow. So as I mentioned, there's some varying info, but one fact remains the same.
00:10:28
Speaker
Norma came home a little bit after 11 and she was surprised when she found an empty house. She didn't understand where everybody could have been and her soon normal and eventful evening turned into a night that was really unforgettable for her. So when she comes in the television was on
00:10:53
Speaker
And she expects that her family would be there watching something on TV, but they're not there. And so she thought this was really strange because it just wasn't like them to leave the TV on if they had all, you know, for example, gone to bed or something like that. Oh, right. Plus, you know, I never really thought about it until you were just saying this. Like today, in today's time, it could be 11 o'clock and while I would be home in bed,
00:11:22
Speaker
Many people are not. And I feel like that's even more common today, maybe because a lot of places are open later or all night now. Like, why not go to Walmart at 11 p.m.? You could if you needed to, but back then you couldn't. So it makes sense that I would be more worried, I guess, back then if I come home and the TV's on, but nobody's there. You wouldn't think, oh, they've probably gone to McDonald's for a Sunday.
00:11:51
Speaker
You know, you wouldn't think that. If the ice cream machine's working. That's true. If it's working.
00:11:58
Speaker
So because she expected them to be home and they weren't, she's like calling out to them thinking maybe they're in the kitchen, you know, grabbing a snack or something like that, but nobody answered. So she
The Aftermath and Crime Scene Concerns
00:12:10
Speaker
just starts to walk through the house looking for them. And eventually she entered her parents' bedroom. The door was cracked just a little bit. And there she found a very gruesome discovery.
00:12:25
Speaker
So in the bedroom, she did find her missing parents and her sister. However, all three were bound. Their mouths were stuffed with stockings or socks, different things that the killer or killers had found in the bedroom.
00:12:45
Speaker
Robert and Helen were blindfolded, which at first I was like, why just those two? But then there's a detail later on that you're like, oh, okay, that makes a little sense. Oh, no, no, no, I'm nervous. Now, do we know, did it say in anything what they were bound with? Were they also bound with items that were from the home or did whoever did this bring with them whatever it was that they bound them with?
00:13:13
Speaker
No, I did find in the research that just like what was in their mouths, it was the same type of objects that were used to to bind their arms. So like pantyhose, stockings, ties, like that type of thing. Because in my head, of course, you know, I'm already thinking of motive and different things like that. And so then I was thinking, OK, because you said their mouths were stuffed with things that were in the home.
00:13:43
Speaker
I thought, well, maybe whoever broke in or whatever thought that they would be gone to the game like everybody else. And then, of course, weren't prepared when there were people there. And so had to use things from the home. I don't know. Continue. That's a good point. OK. So she finds her dad, Robert, who was really high up, actually, in the state education department. She found him on the bed. He had been shot in the head.
00:14:13
Speaker
Her mom, Helen, had been shot in the head multiple times and once in the leg. And the little sister seemed to get the brunt end of everything. She was actually stabbed six times, Allison, before she was shot in the head. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:14:34
Speaker
So far to me and my FBI psychoanalysis, it seems like both of the females got a lot more violent reactions from the perpetrator. Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned that they were blindfolded. And at first I was like, that's really random.
00:14:58
Speaker
But then Norma finds that Joy's panties were pulled down and there was evidence that she was molested. Yeah. And like her cheek was even bruised. Like she'd been hit in the face. And so I'm wondering if they blindfolded Robert and Helen while they did that to Julie. Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:15:29
Speaker
And she's only 12. I mean, it's gruesome and horrible in any circumstance, but she's a baby. Oh my goodness. Amazingly though, according to an article posted on the website called amateur sleuth, both Robert and Helen were actually still alive when Norma walked into the room. They weren't dead. Wow. Robert.
00:15:53
Speaker
Now Robert didn't survive very long. Helen, though, who was found on the carpet actually would die like nine days later, I think is what it said in the hospital. But she died before regaining consciousness. So she was never able to say anything about what happened. Norma, of course, calls an ambulance service. She actually called.
00:16:20
Speaker
a Tallahassee funeral home ambulance service. And she in that call said, quote, something terrible has happened. Please come. Because she is young too. I mean, she's only 17. That's so traumatic. And I've read too that both her and Judith, I actually think I may mention it later on.
00:16:42
Speaker
um, have really never spoken publicly a lot about what happened. Yes. Can you imagine that? Like, I don't know that I would be, I mean, I know a lot of our families, they are strong enough to come forward, but I don't know that I would be able to at 17. You know, that would be so traumatic. Well, and to think, I don't want to minimize what any of our families go through with the loss of a loved one from foul play. And then you, yeah.
00:17:11
Speaker
Then imagine losing three family members at the same time. Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you don't you don't get over something like that. And she actually stayed with her parents like looking at their bound bodies until someone arrived at the scene. Oh.
00:17:35
Speaker
And it looked like the attacks actually didn't happen too long before she got home. This was later confirmed when a neighbor claimed that they heard screams around 1045 because she got home between like 11 and 1115. And then body temperatures also indicated that whoever killed them left just moments before Norma got back from the game and or babysitting. That was in the Tallahassee Democrat.
00:18:03
Speaker
Wow.
Investigation Findings and City Reaction
00:18:04
Speaker
So two things with that. Number one, I think it would be if you see, especially if she realized that her parents were still alive, obviously, you're wanting to care for them until the ambulance gets there, which means by doing that, you're contaminating the crime scene, but you're not going to just stand there. I mean, you're going to, you know, get down and check and help and all of that. But number two,
00:18:33
Speaker
that could have been catastrophic for Norma too, had she either gotten home from babysitting or the game, whichever it was that she did that night, even 15 minutes earlier. Yeah. And I didn't read if she, I mean, I'm sure she
00:18:52
Speaker
I mean, I don't know maybe she saw it and then you know immediately called 9-1-1 and she was almost like paralyzed and couldn't go any further into the room. Maybe I didn't read where she touched the bodies, but there was some Contamination that we'll talk about here in a little bit. Okay, but I do think this is like a really good like a life lesson Please call 9-1-1 if you hear or see something
00:19:21
Speaker
out of the ordinary or suspicious in your neighborhood. Yeah. If I heard a scream. Yeah. I mean, that would be at least I would. Well, it depends on how scared I was myself. I'd either call them if I have their number to check it out or maybe call 911. Yeah, because I'm sure like a thousand percent sure that your neighbor would rather the police show up and you have to say, oh, no, we saw
00:19:51
Speaker
giant spider killed a snake or something, then no one come to help in their most desperate time of need. So just make the call. But because Norma's arrival home was so close to the time her family was killed, many question if Robert, Helen, and Joy were always the focus of the attack, or if, like you said, it was just a coincidence that they were the only ones home at the time.
00:20:22
Speaker
That's what my gut is telling me. Yeah. And investigators found no sign of a forced entry. Nothing had been stolen because money was left just sitting out on their dresser or whatever. They speculated that because the home was on a ridge behind the Northwood Mall that was overlooking a creek, they speculated that
00:20:51
Speaker
drainage ditches that left from the Sims home to go down to the creek, you know, for rainwater or whatever, were how the killer approached the home. That's one speculation. And then some believe that they would have been comfortable enough to walk around in the neighborhood without raising suspicion. So maybe someone who lived close by.
00:21:13
Speaker
Oh, and then of course this is probably, you know, you mentioned small town you mentioned they began locking deadbolts. So, this was a different time when a lot of people left doors unlocked and so it could have been the case that maybe they were, you know, watching television, and that's why they didn't hear someone enter.
00:21:34
Speaker
the home, especially if they came through a back door or something because they had come through this drainage ditch. But I am curious about motive, even though I think it seems to me opportunistic. And I say that because if they if the targets were only mom, dad and joy, then why not come near the beginning of the game when the game had started and know that the other two daughters aren't coming home versus 15 minutes before
00:22:04
Speaker
any of them are due home. So that, that makes me feel like it was a crime of opportunity, but the motive, I don't know. Yeah. And you know, another reason if we're thinking about, it could be someone that lived in the neighborhood and would have been comfortable walking the streets and it not raise any suspicion. It could also be that there was no forced entry because it would be perfectly normal if that person
00:22:32
Speaker
knocked on their door like the, Hey, can I have a cup of sugar? Top of neighbor. You know what I mean? Yeah. But whoever had done this most believe seem to know the sins and most believe had a personal motive for the murders. And we'll kind of talk about that in the second part of today's episode.
00:22:56
Speaker
But we still, like you said, wonder who would hurt this family.
Pastor Roberts as a Suspect
00:23:02
Speaker
Henry Cabbage, who was a researcher for this murder, like he pretty much dedicated
00:23:09
Speaker
the majority of his life to researching this homicide, like knew so much about it that he had planned to write a book, told the Tallahassee Democrat, quote, there's no apparent reason why the Simpsons should have been targeted. It was a very middle class church going family whose children were good students at Raw Middle School and Leon High. The Simpsons were unlikely victims, but they were victims, end quote.
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Ready to combat dehydration? Track your today and feel the difference for yourself. Use code coffeeandcases for 20% off your order. So if you remember, I said that Norma called that funeral home ambulance service. Right.
00:27:43
Speaker
and those were the next people to arrive at the scene. So it was Russell Bevis who owned the funeral home that Norma had called and his 16 year old son Rocky.
00:27:55
Speaker
Oh goodness, now another child is gonna see this, the 16 year old. And when they get there, they see that Helen and Robert were still alive. So they both work to untie the two. Now, this is how I also would have reacted. I guess, I mean, none of us truly know how we would react. Seeing a scene like this, but I would like to think
00:28:24
Speaker
that if I arrived on the scene where two people were fighting for their lives, I would work to free them from those bonds. Because in my mind, I want them to have every possible chance of survival. And to me, that's part of that. Right. Which though, I'm sure this is what you were mentioning earlier, means additional contamination.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah, because. But that's exactly what I would do. I can't blame. No. Russell and Rocky for doing that. Right. But at the same time, like we just said, many say they compromised part of the crime scene. But I just don't think I could have left two people who are still alive bound like that. Right. Well, but even if it's just, you know, I.
00:29:10
Speaker
Think about when you just feel, say, claustrophobic. You almost feel like you've got to get out of whatever room you're in or space you're in so you can just breathe. And I'm sure that would be the case if they're still alive, but they're tightly bound. And that's what would be going through my head too. And I don't know this, I'm assuming Robert
00:29:36
Speaker
was in far worse condition because he died shortly after. But I don't know, you know, and if they're struggling against those or, you know, moving, then I would have to do something. I couldn't just let them lay there like that. But given the fact that the knots used to bound the sims were a specialized knot, they were a grainy knot. I have no idea what that is. I can barely knot my shoes.
00:30:05
Speaker
It's like when you take two ropes and you bind them together. Hmm. But they use that knot on all three of the family
Exploring Local Suspects
00:30:17
Speaker
members. And like I mentioned before, they use materials from the house. So things like lingerie, socks, pantyhose, ties, that type of thing. OK.
00:30:28
Speaker
And because robbery was quickly ruled out as a motive, that leaves us with the conclusion that many hold that the murders were planned and that the killer or killers even spent time cleaning the scene and suggested that. Some suggest, as we talked also, that it would be someone who was comfortable being seen in the neighborhood without raising any type of concern or suspicion. But I would get
00:30:56
Speaker
I would understand if this were, say, a targeted attack and it were by a neighbor or somebody close to the family and the parents are the victims because adults can make people angry. But I don't know. I'm sure a 12 year old could make somebody angry too, but not angry enough to do what they did to her. Well, think about it more as a crime of passion, potentially.
00:31:26
Speaker
which is disgusting, but it will make sense here in a little bit. Okay. So because we don't really have a lot to go on, the investigators are like, okay, let's figure out why this happened. You know, what is a motive? Cause we know it's not robbery. So what could it have been? Robert was well liked and highly thought of in the community. So they're like, who would want to hurt this guy? Right. Cause everybody likes him.
00:31:56
Speaker
Helen taught Sunday school. She was the church secretary. She had a lot of friends in the community. So again, they're like, who would want to kill Helen?
00:32:06
Speaker
makes no sense. The kids were well-liked at school. They performed well academically. They had a lot of friends as well. They didn't have anybody that was angry with them at the moment, particularly Joy. I mean, she's 12. What's she going to do? Take somebody's Barbie doll? Right. So who would want to kill her?
00:32:30
Speaker
There were very few, if any, real leads to speak of. So investigators are like, all right, let's look around the outside of the house. They drained a nearby pond in the hopes that the murder weapons would have been discarded in this pond, but they found nothing.
00:32:50
Speaker
So by this point, the town was in an uproar. News of this triple homicide stayed on the front of newspapers for days. There was no sign of the killer. No arrests had been made. No one had been named a suspect. So now everybody's like walking their doors at night. Trick or treat had to be done before the sun went down. All the kids had to be back home.
00:33:14
Speaker
There was a rush on gun stores because citizens were buying guns, knives, anything to protect their home. Women were feeling those water pistols with ammonia. Parents kept their kids home from school. They kept them home from sporting sporting events, activities, play dates. Well, you best believe that if my kid went out trick-or-treating, I'd be walking with her, too. I wouldn't let her go on her own. One hundred percent for sure.
00:33:45
Speaker
And it didn't help that the police weren't shy, that they didn't have a lot to go on. They were quoted in a newspaper as saying they had, quote, no significant clues, no leads and no motives. Wow. So they're just kind of like, yeah, we don't know. Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:34:08
Speaker
There was no forced entry, no signs of robbery, no signs of struggles. The investigators did fingerprint the house and they lifted nearly a thousand fingerprints.
00:34:23
Speaker
But the majority of those, I'm sure, belonged to the family. And there was nothing in those prints that led them any closer to finding out who the killer was. The murder weapons were never found. Yeah, and it's weapons, because you have a gun and a knife. Which I think also is why they think there was two killers, because that's just two very different ways of killing someone. One is much more personal. Yes.
00:34:51
Speaker
According to an article called Murders in 1966 stole Tallahassee's innocence. Police combed through the woods that were behind the Sims's house, because remember it was like that ditchy area. Oh, right. Because that's how they came in. So they go through all of that. Mm hmm. And then, you know, that lake at the bottom was drained. They searched through all that monkey stuff, but they found nothing.
00:35:20
Speaker
So because of that, when you have no leads, you have named no suspects, you don't really know what the motive was. So now all that's left are rumors, which are gonna spread like wildfire. They always do. Rumors and speculation. Thus, one rumor was born that a high profile member of the city was involved in this homicide.
00:35:48
Speaker
So many began to say that pastor Roberts, who was the lead pastor at a very prominent church in town, knew something or had something to do with the death of Robert Helen and Joy. Okay. Why would they think that? So they thought that Alison, because Helen, you remember I said that she was the church secretary. Yeah.
00:36:14
Speaker
had actually just put in her resignation. She worked under him at First Baptist Church, so she had quit her job just a few days before she was murdered. But my goodness, quitting a job, jumping from an employee quitting a job to motive for murder and
00:36:34
Speaker
the rape of, or at least molestation of a child and the murder of another. That's a big jump, big old jump. Yeah. You know, no one really knows a hundred percent for sure what she put in her resignation letter, but many think that she disapproved of Pastor Roberts
00:37:01
Speaker
Philandering ways he had a lot of affairs with many local women And she they think that may have been Part of it. I don't know if maybe he hit on her and she turned that down or if she just maybe spoke out against that To his face and he didn't appreciate it. So she just quit, you know, I don't know about this theory I know and because of
00:37:28
Speaker
like the affairs coming to surface and the rumors that he was involved in the crime. Eventually this destroyed his career. Yeah, I could definitely. It was over, but he was actually at the football game. So not only had he been seen by dozens of witnesses in both halves of the game, there was also video footage of him there. Oh, so he had a really solid alibi.
00:37:58
Speaker
And then he would actually die several years later in a car accident after quitting his job as head pastor. And still, despite the witnesses and the video footage, there are some that say he was involved, even though we clearly know he wasn't there. Right. Investigator Larry Campbell said that
00:38:25
Speaker
even today, like I just said, there are some who are convinced that Roberts had a role in the murder, but Campbell has never believed that himself. And most people that are involved in the case believe that the pastor wasn't involved. And in that same innocence article, Reverend Douglas Dorch, who's the current, well, at the time the article was written, was the current pastor said, quote, he was articulate. He was everything a congregation would want in a preacher.
00:38:55
Speaker
For him to be associated with that murder was a very serious matter as far as our church witness in the community was concerned. Many today find great relief and comfort in Sheriff Campbell's assertion that our pastor was not involved in this murder." End quote.
00:39:09
Speaker
So not only did it do damage to him personally, it damaged the reputation of their church as well. Because then they're like, what church is going to hire a murderer. And Campbell spent most of his life working to try to solve this case, Allison. He spent the rest of his career either chasing down leads
00:39:28
Speaker
or looking into like possible suspects, anything that could help find answers for the case. So before he died, he had actually come through evidence. He followed every lead and he died. Now this is the part, I mean, I get it, but I don't, but he died feeling certain that he knew who committed the murders. He knew like he would stand before God and say that
00:39:57
Speaker
It was two high school students, a boyfriend and a girlfriend who lived nearby and had supposedly morbid tastes. But he would never come forward because he knew it wouldn't hold up in court. And without being able to go to trial, he didn't want to ruin somebody's name, I guess.
00:40:24
Speaker
because supposedly in an article called author says Sims murders still make Tallahassee Shiver in 1987, the girlfriend actually sought out Campbell and just wanted to have a hypothetical conversation with him. Like, what would happen if I confessed to these murders or if I confessed that I had some involvement in this? And he was like, well, you'd go to prison. Hello. And so then she like kind of backs off and won't say anything more.
00:40:57
Speaker
And he said that he can never come up with evidence to convict her or her boyfriend. And he said in that article, quote, in those days, we didn't have the scientific capabilities to examine evidence.
The Unresolved Quest for Justice
00:41:07
Speaker
We do now. If this happened now, we'd have somebody in jail tomorrow. I think I could go to a grand jury and get an indictment, but we couldn't prove it in court. End quote. Wow. So he's pretty confident though, you know, that if he had,
00:41:25
Speaker
the advancements that we have now back then that he would have, he would have been able to, to convict. Yeah, making a rest. And I wonder if, I mean, surely if it looked like Joy was molested, they took some samples of that.
00:41:52
Speaker
even if they didn't have the technology then I would hope so. I would hope so. So we should have the technology now if those samples are available. Well and well preserved I guess is the other thing. True yeah. According to medium.com there was another couple who fell under suspicion and this couple was a girl named Mary who was 19 at the time and a man named Vernon who is 21 at the time and this
00:42:22
Speaker
theory I think you can easily make fit. Okay. Mary was described as obsessed with death by neighbors that live near her. She was often caught breaking into funeral homes. Oh my. Yeah and Campbell had a theory that
00:42:49
Speaker
Someone involved in this had this obsession with necrophilia. And so that to me fits that description. Mary's boyfriend, Vernon, was also creepy in the fact that he was a peeping Tom.
00:43:14
Speaker
And had been caught peeping at Joy just a week before the murders. Oh my. Wow. So that is why I said maybe her death could be looked at more as a crime of passion because I think he could have potentially been lusting after her. Wow.
00:43:41
Speaker
Okay, I could totally see that there were several odd things surrounding their behavior that The police took notice of the two gave conflicting and changing statements to the police when they were questioned and in the 80s Mary went came back to Tallahassee to voluntarily talk to investigators and she openly suggested to them that Vernon who she was then married to had committed the murders but then
00:44:11
Speaker
her motive of talking to them kind of became, they were dubious because then she started showing more interest in the reward money. So they're like, are you just saying this because you want the money? Are you saying it? Because it's actually true. But still we have to consider the fact that they gave those conflicting statements to the police.
00:44:35
Speaker
they're both kind of obsessed with the ones obsessed with death, the ones obsessed with a 12 year old that's molested and stabbed to death. But there was no hard evidence that led to any type of arrest. And Vernon has always denied obviously his involvement in these murders and has been active online commenting on the case, like, you know, this is not me. I didn't do this. Okay. That type of thing.
00:45:06
Speaker
Allison Medium would also say that old investigators would later take to the internet to share their speculation that the killers had stayed back to clean up the crime scene and that they had to be someone from this neighborhood. So we even have people on the case taking to like amateur sleuths pretty much. Others though rejected this theory saying that Tallahassee is unsuspecting like you mentioned and
00:45:34
Speaker
virtually violent crime free nature would have anybody opening doors for any stranger, not necessarily someone from the neighborhood or they could just walk in on their own because doors were left unlocked. And they're going to know
00:45:53
Speaker
that people are going to be preoccupied with the football game. So perhaps the Sims family didn't go to the game, but they're watching it on TV. And so they're preoccupied by that. And so they just kind of seize that opportunity. But it would still have to be someone with, you know, that kind of just an intent to kill is the best way I could say it. So
00:46:21
Speaker
I don't know. I actually I was thinking in my head about, you know, Charles Manson and Helter Skelter and them breaking in places just to kill. But I mean, Manson was in prison until 1967. So and he's all the way on the West Coast. So but it I don't know why it gave me those kind of vibes.
00:46:50
Speaker
Well, you know who was not on the West Coast at this time, which it would have been, I think a little early, would have been Ted Bundy, because remember he goes to Florida State University in 1978 into that sorority house and bludgeoned some of those girls to death. I read when I was in high school, a book about Ted Bundy. See, my true crime obsession goes way, way back.
00:47:17
Speaker
But when you look at all of his victims though, he definitely had a type. And so I don't know if he necessarily would have gone from something like this kind of a crime to a very specific type. So if you asked me my gut,
00:47:44
Speaker
out of those theories, I would have to go to, I know that the detective died thinking it was two teens. My gut is telling me Mary and Vernon. And I don't have any proof, obviously, of that or else we wouldn't be talking about that case. But with their kind of obsession with death,
00:48:12
Speaker
In addition to the, I guess, voyeuristic, you know, actions of Tom on, on joy earlier in that week or the week before, whenever it was that you said, that's what the crime fits with those details to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think I would say I'm leaning the same.
00:48:42
Speaker
As the years pass, it becomes more and more unlikely that we will ever know what happened to the Sims family. Witnesses die, information is forgotten, or people move and forget. But we hope that our listeners will take a moment to share today's case in the hopes that someone somewhere will remember something from the night or the nights that followed that could turn this case around.
00:49:04
Speaker
We hope that just maybe more investigative work will be done on the case, and maybe this family and community can finally get some answers. Even if nothing changes in this case, I hope that we will keep Robert, Helen, and Joyce memories alive. As we close the chapter on today's episode, I want to remind you that behind every unsolved case lies a story waiting to be heard, a truth waiting to be uncovered, and justice waiting to be served.
00:49:31
Speaker
Cold cases may grow cold and unsolved cases may remain unsolved, but they never fade away entirely. The victims and their families continue to search for answers and dedicated investigators persevere in their search for truth. It's a reminder that even in the darkest of circumstances, hope, determination, and the relentless pursuit of justice can shine through. Until next time, keep questioning, keep searching, and never underestimate the power of collective effort in the quest for justice.
Engaging with the Podcast Community
00:50:02
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
00:50:31
Speaker
stay together stay safe we'll see you next week listeners this makes me sad even though it's a joyous time
00:51:02
Speaker
But this will be Maggie's last episode for a bit because she's off to birth a human.
Maggie's Temporary Departure
00:51:11
Speaker
And I'm so excited, so, so excited to meet him. But just to let you know.
00:51:20
Speaker
This is our farewell for now episode to Maggie and our you are going to be a wonderful, wonderful mom because you already are and he's not even here yet. And just continue to pray like you do. And Maggie is so gracious and grateful and humble about everything in her life and
00:51:51
Speaker
I know that she just approaches each day with gratitude. And that's exactly what kind of an environment every baby deserves. And so he's a lucky, lucky baby to have you and Anthony. And we're lucky to have you here on the show. And we'll
00:52:09
Speaker
and just be even luckier when you come back. And remember, Sleuthounds, that Alison will be doing it obviously by herself, like she mentioned. So just in return, show her some grace and extra love because it will be hard for those weeks while I'm gone. So just drown her in kindness and support and love, please. Please. And with that, I guess I'll say it this time.
00:52:37
Speaker
All of our love is going out to each and every one of you. And for Maggie, it'll be a few weeks, but for me, until next week, sleuth hounds.
00:53:07
Speaker
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00:53:24
Speaker
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