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E252: Penny Doe
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Angie Clinger and her friends would spend their summer days exploring the woods and hillsides near their homes in Monroe Township, Clarion County, Pennsylvania. But on July 22nd, 1990, the day before Angie's 8th birthday, a simple outing with friends took a dark and unexpected turn. While playing near a tunnel under a railroad trestle, the children stumbled upon a horrifying discovery that would forever alter their childhood memories. The joy and anticipation of Angie's birthday (then and in the future) were instantly replaced by fear, confusion, and a profound sense of loss. This is the case of Penny Doe.
Key sources:
“For 32 Years, Someone in Clarion County Has Kept a Horrifying Secret” Gavin Fish (9/21/22)
“New Information Uncovered in Penny Doe Case for the First Time in 30 Years” Gavin Fish (10/3/22)
“DNA and Genetic Genealogy May Unlock the Secret of Penny Doe’s Identity” Gavin Fish (11/25/22)
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Transcript
Childhood Joy and Anticipation
00:00:00
Speaker
For most children, the anticipation of a birthday is filled with joy and excitement, a time for celebration and carefree fun. The thought of a day all about them to be spent alongside family and friends, it can be thrilling.
00:00:18
Speaker
I remember birthdays at home, parties at McDonald's, and celebrations at the roller rink. It didn't matter where the celebration was held, the thought of turning one year older meant being one year closer to double digits, one year closer to being a teenager, and then to driving.
00:00:39
Speaker
Each was one step closer to something exciting about growing up.
Angie's Eighth Birthday and Dark Discovery
00:00:45
Speaker
This excitement was certainly true also for a young girl named Angie Clinger who was eagerly looking forward to turning eight in July 1990. Angie and her friends would spend their summer days leading to her birthday exploring the woods and hillsides around their homes in Monroe Township, Clarion County, Pennsylvania.
00:01:09
Speaker
But on July 22, 1990, the day before Angie's eighth birthday, a simple outing with friends took a dark and unexpected turn. While playing near a tunnel under a railroad trestle, the children stumbled upon a horrifying discovery that would forever alter their childhood memories.
00:01:31
Speaker
The joy and anticipation of Angie's birthday, then and in the future, were instantly replaced by fear, confusion, and a profound sense of loss.
Podcast Introduction and Context
00:01:43
Speaker
This is the case of Penny Doe.
00:02:21
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot. and our case is cold. My name is Allison Williams and my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:02:40
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
Monroe Township Life and Discovery
00:02:59
Speaker
July 22nd, 1990 was a hot and humid day Maggie in Monroe Township, Pennsylvania.
00:03:08
Speaker
But it was the summer which meant that they had all the time in the world to play with friends. And that is what it meant for seven-year-old Angie Clinger. We just take a minute with my mom props because she was big time pregnant with me in July of 1990. That does take, I'm telling you, a trooper to be pregnant during the summer.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah. So Angie's mom, she knew that struggle since Angie was born in late July. yeah God bless her. They were kids much like you and I have talked about Maggie of our childhood who lived in a more rural area and they loved to spend those lazy summer days running around outside playing in the woods and the creeks and picking wild berries. I know for me my favorite was finding honeysuckle bushes and picking all the flowers I could and my friends and I would sit around
00:04:11
Speaker
pinching off the end and drinking that minuscule drop of nectar. but And it's like not even really worth the effort. I know, like you've got to go through all of that and it's, you could barely taste it because that drop is so small. But it makes me smile just thinking about it. will For Angie,
00:04:33
Speaker
Their favorite pastime, she and her friends was picking wild berries and eating them. She yeah she went out that morning of July 22nd, excited not only to spend the day doing what they loved, but also because she was turning eight the next day, big time.
00:04:55
Speaker
That morning, Angie, her 10-year-old brother and two neighborhood friends, a 10-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl, decided to explore the woods and hillsides near their homes.
00:05:09
Speaker
Angie recalled in several sources that in the 90s, summertime meant playing outside all day until until the street lights came on, which signaled time to head home for dinner. no yeah And I feel like this is so iconic that the playing outside until the street lights come on because that is exactly what it used to be.
00:05:30
Speaker
so The group of friends decided to head to a specific area that they frequented for play. It was a tunnel area underneath a railroad trestle. And it was located in kind of a remote area off of Township Route 535 in Monroe Township. The area was referred to by everyone simply as the trestle. OK.
00:05:58
Speaker
so It was kind of an out of the way place, but locals knew of it so much so that they had a name for it. The railroad was still in operation at the time, but now this particular area is overgrown.
00:06:17
Speaker
and nice dream flowing through a culvert under the railroad tracks, overflowed often, and that is what watered the berry bushes in the area. This sounds like, okay, listen, I know that they find a person there, but post Finding the Dead person, or pre, I guess, but this sounds like a very fun place to play. ah It just sounds so idyllic to me. Yeah, very magical. Yes, the stream is watering the berries.
Horrifying Discovery and Initial Reactions
00:06:50
Speaker
So the children armed with containers because they were hoping to find some ripe berries to collect, they were excited looking forward to the berries as a treat after a long day of playing. They're nothing refreshing.
00:07:05
Speaker
Oh yeah. As the children approached the culvert though, a foul odor filled the air. Now they lived in rural Pennsylvania, pennsylvania so the children were accustomed to the smell of decomposing deer carcasses that could often be a found ah Alongside the roads and I know that sounds really gross but the smell didn't initially alarm them and again myself being from a rural area I completely understand that because when I started driving I was far more scared of deer than other drivers on the road yeah Yeah and we lived in a really old house when I was growing up and one time a rat died in our kitchen like behind the cabinet and the smell. yeah So you know what this is like but then you also understand being from a rural area
00:08:04
Speaker
I mean, it's very common to yeah drive around where I'm from and see dead deer on the side of the road because deer are not smart. know They will literally run right into your car. yeah They look at your headlights and just think.
00:08:21
Speaker
That's gonna be where I'm going. to Yep, this is it. The branch where's the light? Right. So that is, you know, they smelled the decomposition, but they were like, Oh, it's, it's a deer. And they, as they got closer to the trestle, they saw what appeared to be a rotting deer. I didn't think it was a mannequin.
00:08:45
Speaker
No, they did not. Yeah, they thought it was a deer, I guess, especially because of the smell. And it was in just a few inches of water. That's what they thought it was from a distance. But when they got closer to the object, which was just a few feet from the culvert, that is when the children realized with horror that this was not a deer they were seeing, but a human body.
00:09:12
Speaker
And traumatic for any person to stumble upon that, but children, even more traumatic. Yes. Angie recalled in my sources being close enough to see that it was a woman whose brown hair was actually in the water near her skull, but no longer attached to her skull. And she remembered seeing mostly bones with very little flesh remaining.
00:09:44
Speaker
Angie stated in a video for exploreclarian.com, quote, I always think of it. It's just sad. I think of the feeling that we had when we found her. Terrifying. We ran. And then we felt like someone was watching us. I don't think I ever ran so fast. It was traumatizing. and I was going to ask if they like immediately ran away because I know I definitely would.
00:10:13
Speaker
oh i'm ah self-proclaimed scarity cat yeah but even when i was little if i was playing in the woods i would get scared if i heard ah ah breaking and i would be like who is out there to Go home. Yeah.
00:10:30
Speaker
you know and and you know scared that somebody would do that and nobody would ever know because I'm out in the middle of nowhere. and And so I can only imagine being this young child and then stumbling upon a body.
Law Enforcement and Media Involvement
00:10:43
Speaker
I mean, it it doesn't matter to me how long it appeared to have been there or how decomposed. You're not thinking logically when you see a body. And it wasn't just Angie.
00:10:59
Speaker
all of the children ran in a terrified frenzy. They were in such a panic, in fact, that they ran right past Angie's house where her mother noticed them as she was sweeping the front porch. So she's out there just sweeping away and she sees her two children and the neighbor children run past at this frenzied rate. They continued running until they reached that neighbor's house, their friend's house, to share what they had seen. And while much of that day, you can imagine, is vividly stamped in Angie's mind, she can't remember why they didn't stop at her house first, since they got to it first, other than
00:11:47
Speaker
the likelihood that they went to the neighbor's parents because the oldest among them was the 12 year old neighbor girl. So maybe that friend had said, you know, we need to tell my parents. And so that's why they ran there initially.
00:12:03
Speaker
That makes sense to me or maybe Angie's mom was like mine and if I told her she probably would have been little to no help because she too is a scaredy cat. So the parents of this neighbor child though, they did immediately call law enforcement who did respond quickly. A feeling that must have been a mix of terror, confusion, and of course that lingering sense that somebody could be watching them.
00:12:29
Speaker
For that reason, Angie rode in the back of a pickup truck as the authorities were led by her sibling and one of the other neighbor children back to the body. So even though all four of them had found the body, Angie and... I would say the other younger one, right? yeah we say and Yes, they did. And then Angie's brother and the eldest of the four actually showed law enforcement where the body was located. So there were, I'm i'm telling you this because we talk about this a lot, the need to
00:13:11
Speaker
get corroborating information when we talk about some of the cases that we cover. And sometimes we'll have people who say, oh, well, you know, this detail was true and not what you said. I can assure you that Maggie and I both, we rely on what are credible sources.
00:13:34
Speaker
for the cases that we cover. But here's why I'm bringing this up here because there were some sources which said that those who discovered the body were hunting bears when in reality they were hunting berries.
00:13:53
Speaker
And so it's just like, there were some credible sources that I read that mentioned that those who found the body were hunting bears. And that is not the case. That is, I guess they heard berries and didn't hear the end of it. And then another detail that gets twisted. in the newspaper accounts. And again, credible newspaper accounts of this crime say that there were two people who discovered the body. And I can only imagine that they believe that because there were two of them who went as wright who led law enforcement there, but actually there were four. And so with small details like that, which are important,
00:14:39
Speaker
in telling the story, but if you're relying solely on your credible sources, if I hadn't have read the alternative to know that there were four of them, and I just read this one source that says that there were two, it's a credible source. So my inclination is to trust it, but it just shows you how easy it is for facts to get twisted or misrepresented. Exactly. and that it is It does make it very hard when we are covering the cases that we cover that have not gotten a lot of media coverage because then it's even harder to corroborate to find out which one is accurate.
00:15:29
Speaker
I say this not to excuse if we get something wrong, but for you to know, we are basing the information that we're sharing on these credible sources to have empathy with us knowing that we'll do that. And if you, let's say you're close to a crime or you happen to know someone who's related to it and we have gotten a detail wrong, please reach out to us because we have before added to episodes um made corrections in episodes because we are human and we're trusting our sources but we also know that those sources can be wrong and we know how important it is to get those details right. So if you do hear something that is incorrect please please please reach out to us
00:16:21
Speaker
because we we do care. and We want the story to be right. Yeah, exactly. um But that just shows you how everything can get tried twisted. But there were four of them, and they were hunting berries. but Just so not big so you know. that Eight-year-old, you're not looking for bears. Yes. um But you can see, even though Angie was not one of the two who took law enforcement back to the scene,
00:16:51
Speaker
As you can imagine, Maggie, Angie's recollection of that day would be forever tainted because that's an image that you can't unsee.
00:17:02
Speaker
Right. And it's right before her birthday. So she's going to remember it. I feel like even more so because it is a day that she is close to one that is important to her. You know what mean I mean? Yes. And I think you're exactly right. In fact, she told Dateline, quote, every year around this time, I start thinking about it, you know, especially around my around my birthday, because we found her a day before.
00:17:30
Speaker
Ever since, it's just kind of resonated with me. She continued by saying, quote, it has a little bit more meaning to me, I guess, because I found I was part of the kids that found her. The whole emotional, psychological experience, really, I think, will forever connect me with it. and The news of the children's discovery quickly spread throughout the small community of Monroe Township. The local media outlets began covering the story and while I wasn't able to locate the census information from Monroe Township in 1990, it appears that even in the early the population of Monroe Township was only around 1500. So very tiny. And then the entirety of Clarion County. So the whole county in 1990 had just shy of 42,000 people. And that was spread out among 22 townships. So even a small county.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah, these are the communities where even though there tends to be quite some distance between neighbors physically, everyone knows everyone, and so news travels quickly. Two days after the discovery of the body, the Clarion News, which is the local newspaper, published a brief article describing the basic details of the case. And when I say brief article,
00:19:12
Speaker
I mean it. Here is the entirety of the article. Quote, a body of an unknown white female estimated to be in her teen years was found by children hiking through the woods near Township Route 535, four tenths mile west of State Route two zero one two at one p.m. July 22nd. Time and cause of death and identity are under investigation. Anyone with information concerning this matter should contact Pennsylvania State Police. End quote.
00:19:43
Speaker
Okay. So then that makes me think, so we don't have this person's identity. So I feel like obviously she's not from this town, potentially not even from this County. So what is making you say that at this point? yes The town is so small. I would think that, you know, if someone was missing, you would know, like if you hadn't seen Penny and church and two weeks or whatever, you would be like, hey, is Penny sick? Where's Penny? And then people would start talking about it. And she ah had been dead for a while because they saw bone. Right. Okay. So let me continue and we'll see how your theory evolves.
00:20:26
Speaker
Then, two days later, a total of four days after the discovery, the Clarion News published a follow-up article reporting on the lack of progress in the investigation. The article included a quote from Dan Fiscus of the Pennsylvania State Police, who stated, quote, we're looking for information. Anything that somebody can supply us with, any type of lead,
00:20:53
Speaker
We don't have anything right now to work with. We have the jaw and skull, and it will take time to put that all together. Positive identification may not ever be possible." So we didn't even have a whole body. We just had the skull and the jaw.
00:21:12
Speaker
there were other bones. So I'm curious as to why, from my understanding, there were other, well, yeah, there were other bones because of a detail that I'm going to tell you about here in a second.
Victim's Identity and Investigation Challenges
00:21:24
Speaker
So I'm curious why he said that.
00:21:32
Speaker
Maybe those were the most substantial, maybe? I don't know. but and We'll come back to it. The article goes on to say that the police emphasized that despite the fear just mentioned of maybe never positively ideating the victim, identifying the body was crucial to the investigation and they appealed to the public for any information.
00:22:01
Speaker
The article also noted that an autopsy had been performed in Allegheny County, which determined that the woman had likely died from blunt force trauma to the head wow and that she had been deceased for one to three months wow before being found. And of course, the heat had sped up the decomposition, making a smaller window for the time of death harder to pinpoint.
00:22:30
Speaker
As part of their initial investigation, police combed through missing persons reports from Clarion County and the surrounding areas, but found no match. So I was curious why you said that earlier and it seems you're right.
00:22:49
Speaker
because they're looking through all missing persons reports, even from surrounding counties. And they're like, no, nothing matches here. So the fact that there weren't local matches.
00:23:02
Speaker
meant for them either that the girl was local, but maybe old enough to leave on her own. So no one was necessarily missing her. Like if she's say 20, she might go off on her own. and whenever Exactly. And so no one knows to be concerned or that she came to or was brought to this area from someplace more remote.
00:23:31
Speaker
Well, I get the feeling that her killer is from that town and she's like her body was brought there to that kind of remote-ish location. Okay. we're going to talk about that okay That is obviously one of two theories.
00:23:51
Speaker
o After the initial discovery of the body and realization that none of the local missing person cases matched the victim, investigators began working diligently to determine the identity of this young woman and the circumstances surrounding her death. The autopsy conducted in Allegheny County that I mentioned revealed that the woman had suffered blunt force trauma to the right side of her skull.
00:24:21
Speaker
The autopsy also indicated, and here's why where I said, no, I know there were more bones than the skull and the jaw because the autopsy also indicated that her right leg was broken. It was a clean break that had happened either just before her death or just after her death, perhaps in the disposal of her body.
00:24:51
Speaker
So we don't know when that break happened, but sometime close to her time of death. And she had a pretty painful end, I feel like. Yeah. With a broken leg and then you've got the blunt force trauma. The initial news reports and police statements included very basic descriptive details about the woman. I guess just in general hopes of generating leads from the public.
00:25:21
Speaker
The woman was just described as a white female, estimated to be between 15 and 22 years old. Although some sources, this is crazy, reported the age range as 20 to 40. Okay. Which is the big, large range. She was estimated to be between four foot 10 and five foot six.
00:25:47
Speaker
I feel like that's a big range too, but I know they just have like the leg bones or whatever to go. and that she weighed between 105 and 120 pounds. So, I want you to think about this. If you're hearing these basic descriptions, you're like, okay, she can be between 15 and 40, between four foot 10 and five foot six. Really the weight is about all you got. That's small. But she kind of... Oh, that description.
00:26:19
Speaker
Yeah, all of us do. She had long dark brown hair, but her eye color was unknown. In addition to her physical description, after some time without real leads in the case, and again, you can see why because those are pretty generic descriptions, law enforcement released additional details about the woman's clothing and personal belongings. She was wearing size 910 Gitano jeans, size 7 Fruit of the Loom panties, and a black short-sleeved button-down shirt with an attached floral vest made by Stoplight of California. Okay, now
00:27:06
Speaker
I'm gonna say of course well this was a 1990 so I don't think it I mean maybe it I don't know but this makes me think she is like on the younger side. Agreed. Once you get into Mrs then it's like she would be in a size six or size a size eight. Yes sizes tend to be even numbers unless you're talking about Now, some jeans with the waist you know it might be like a 29 or a 27 or something like that. But you're right. Usually, junior sizes are either based on the age of the person or they can be odd numbers. Notably, she was not wearing a bra, socks, or shoes.
00:28:01
Speaker
The most distinctive detail which led to her being nicknamed penny dough was that she had a single penny in each of her front jeans pockets. Okay, did you Google that like is there.
00:28:19
Speaker
some type of superstition about having a penny in your pocket. I mean, obviously, it's that detail that led to her moniker, Penny Doe. And that is sad to me because I do know that pennies are supposed to be lucky. I mean, there's that common phrase, find a penny, pick it up, and all day long, you'll have good luck. Right.
00:28:41
Speaker
I pick up pennies when I see them, but only if they're on heads. I pick up pennies. No. And I put them in my shoe. So i I was curious, that's what I always was told that you're supposed to do when you find a penny, you put it in your shoe. So I was curious if any of our listeners or if you put them in your pockets instead, because I did read that that is common to find the penny and to put it in your pocket. But I think according to superstition, you're supposed to put the penny in the opposite pocket from what you normally put your change in.
00:29:18
Speaker
Maybe she's like me and she has no money. So it doesn't matter which pocket she puts it in. and Or she's like, I never have changed. So maybe to have luck, I better put it in either. But but here's the thing, Maggie. We don't know how the pennies got there. So it's true. Couldn't have been like a killer thing. Like that's a little, yeah, it could have been her who put one in each pocket for good luck.
00:29:44
Speaker
Maybe they were there by accident. Like maybe one of them was already there. She forgot that it was there. She found a penny and it put it in the other one. So it's just accidental. Or did the killer put them there? And obviously that would harken back to that tradition of paying the ferryman of Hades to transport the dead across the river Styx.
00:30:07
Speaker
But no matter the reason, whether for luck or some other symbolic meaning, it makes their presence in her pockets just even more sad to me, especially if she put them there for luck. With more concrete developments in 1991, so approximately one year after the discovery of her remains, Penny Doe's skull was sent to the FBI's special project section In Washington DC, where a facial reconstruction was created by artist Michael taster this clay rendering depicting her with long dark brown hair.
00:30:50
Speaker
was sent back to state police in early February, 1991. Over the years, Maggie, multiple facial reconstructions have been created in an effort to identify her.
Forensic Clues and Theories
00:31:04
Speaker
Because again, if we've got a sculpture based on her skull, maybe somebody could recognize that. So Maggie, here is what that reconstruction looks like. And I'm actually gonna add below that,
00:31:19
Speaker
the more recent renderings or reconstructions that have been done of penny dough for comparison's sake. So the top two pictures are the initial facial reconstruction. The pictures below it are more recent artistic depictions of what penny dough may have looked like. And listeners, I will share these with you on Facebook. But Maggie, what do you notice about these in terms of identifying characteristics?
00:32:02
Speaker
The bottom left is also a possibility? Yes, all of those. Interesting. Okay, so the top two, like the original ones,
00:32:14
Speaker
At first glance, I feel especially in the like diagonal when the profile and she looks a little more native American, I think. Yeah. I would agree with that. But I don't know that I think that translates into these more recent depictions.
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah. I will say, I feel like the more recent ones probably are a better depiction of her if I had to guess. I don't know if the top ones are, they just kind of feel more generic to me, but I don't know. I don't know the work that goes into how you reconstruct.
00:32:54
Speaker
somebody's face, but the face shape is a little different in that one on the bottom right. She's more round faced. Yeah. Where the middle one and the top two original ones, she has more of like a ah heart shape maybe because her chin kind of comes to a point more. Yeah. I was going to say, first of all, the thing that stands out to me too is all of these renderings make her look in the upper end of the age range. and tree Which is interesting because the clothing sizes. Yeah, she looks very at the very top of the larger age range, but her clothing sizes would make me think. Yeah, and I would even say like maybe 50 in that middle bottom one. She looks older than that. She's not an 18 year old. No.
00:33:46
Speaker
And they, all of these renderings also give her, like you were mentioning Maggie, kind of an elongated face with a more pronounced chin. And on all of them, I noticed this, and this is going to sound weird until listeners, you see these pictures, but they all give her like this longer upper lip. Yeah. I was going to say like she has, what is that called? Like where you div it in.
00:34:14
Speaker
above your, in between your nose and your like, cupid's bow. Yeah, both it's pronounced. It's longer. So i I think when I post these pictures, you'll see what we mean. So they do look quite different, but there are a few similarities. yeah Additionally, in 1991, Penny Doe's remains were examined by forensic anthropologist Dr. Dennis Dirkmatt at the University of Pittsburgh. Dr. Dirkmatt reported noting that the only bone fracture that occurred around the time of death
00:34:50
Speaker
was that complete fracture of her right fibula, so her lower leg. So not her skull? Well, other than her skull. Okay, I was like, how's what happened? No, other yeah other than that was her right leg. The report also noted that Penny that penny Doe had a uniquely shaped sternum or breastbone which may have caused a slight indentation in her chest. For penny dough, hers was very slight and so
00:35:28
Speaker
They actually say it might not have even been extremely noticeable at a cursory glance, but it may be one of those small details that could lead someone to pause if they say, wait, I have a missing loved one who did have that indentation in their sternum. That's something you would remember. Exactly.
00:35:52
Speaker
Also during this examination, they noted slightly longer bones in her upper right more arm than in her upper left arm, making it more likely that she were right handed. Is that true? like Apparently so. yeah Now they said it's not a guarantee. So they said she could have been left handed, but she did have a slightly longer bone in her upper right arm.
00:36:22
Speaker
which led them to think that it was more likely than not that she was right handed. But what stood out to investigators, however, were other bones, specifically her teeth. Oh, it's always the teeth. Always. can What they noted was how healthy her teeth were.
00:36:42
Speaker
with no fillings nor any sign of decay leading investigators to surmise that she probably came from an area with fluoridated water.
00:36:57
Speaker
Additionally, a few of her teeth may have been noticeable characteristics to outsiders, which is why I find it extremely odd that none of the sculptures or the drawings that are commonly shared, none of them, none of the most commonly shared ones, show her teeth.
00:37:21
Speaker
But you'll hear when I give you this description, you'll be like, uh, Shirley, a recent one needs to show her teeth because these are recognizable traits. She still had one baby tooth that was still there behind the adult tooth that had grown in.
00:37:41
Speaker
So that's a recognizable trait. She was said to have had one upper tooth, though it doesn't say which one, which was rotated.
00:37:51
Speaker
90 degrees. So imagine like not your eye teeth but your ones may be right beside of it if they were turned 90 degrees. So you just saw the thin edge instead of a labyrinth. So again, identifiable. And I also read that one of her upper front teeth was much shorter than the same tooth on the other side. So again,
00:38:18
Speaker
identifiable. And finally, she did have a chipped tooth in her upper right jaw, but since the rest of her bodily injuries were on the right side of her body. Was it always there or was it a result? Exactly. Yeah, they didn't know if this chipped tooth, how long it had been there or did it happen in the final moments of her life.
00:38:45
Speaker
no I do want to pause here to give a shout out to multiple sources in my research for this case. First to Gavin Fish who is a journalist for Explore Clarion because without him the world wouldn't have even a tenth of this information to share because he is the one who actually pushed for all of this genetic testing and DNA work to be done on penny dough.
00:39:16
Speaker
um So I have depended almost entirely on his research for this episode. So I will put a link to his articles in the show notes. And I want to give a shout out to Georgia Marie. She is a podcaster and YouTuber who covered this case. And in her coverage,
00:39:39
Speaker
She focused on she somehow found a map of the United States showing which states had fluoride added to water. Oh.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yeah, across the US in 1990. And it showed that while Pennsylvania did floridate water, it wasn't nearly to the extent of surrounding states like Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia, Michigan, Illinois, and even Kentucky. and West Virginia is right there. Yeah, go it is really hard drives. Right. And I don't know about you Maggie, but I remember having fluoridated water and also getting fluoride treatment at school. They would pass out fluoride cups to all of the kids in my class and we would swish it and spit it back into the cup. I kind of think I remember that early elementary school like maybe kindergarten or first grade. and I think ultimately I think it happens a lot in more rural
00:40:42
Speaker
And I hate to say it this way, but in more impoverished yeah impoverished areas because you have less access to dental care. And so the more preventative fluoride treatments and things like that, that you can have, especially in children, the healthier.
00:41:00
Speaker
you know, your gums and your teeth and and all of that. So I do think it's interesting that a lot of the surrounding states to Pennsylvania did have a higher concentration of fluoridation. but And it is the health of her teeth and the idea of fluoridation and water in those surrounding states that has led to a lot of speculation that penny dough, like you guessed from the beginning,
00:41:25
Speaker
was probably not from the area, but who she was and exactly lee where she came from was still a mystery. DNA testing was performed on Penny Doe's remains in 1990 or 1991 and the results were submitted to CODIS.
00:41:46
Speaker
the combined DNA index system that we talk about a lot on the show. Another DNA sample was submitted to CODIS in 2012. I feel like that was so just yesterday, but it really, that's kind of a long time ago, 2012. Yeah. 12 years ago. But neither one of those attempts led to a match.
00:42:10
Speaker
In 2022, Gavin Fish, the journalist that I mentioned, who was investigating Penny Doe's case, had a bone sample extracted from Penny Doe's remains, which were still being curated by Dr. Dirk Matt, the one I mentioned earlier.
00:42:29
Speaker
The bone sample was taken to an anonymous lab where the DNA was extracted and amplified. The DNA was then sent to a second anonymous lab for genotyping.
00:42:42
Speaker
And that's the process of determining the DNA sequence at specific locations. yeah Like, why did I have to learn that in high school biology? But I did. Yeah. And now it's coming in handy. yeah So there you go. The goal obviously was to use genetic genealogy and Compare that with Penny Doe's DNA to those DNA profiles and public databases to hopefully find potential relatives versus the more complete match that is needed to get a hit in CODIS. And I did not realize it until reading this case that CODIS does not in the way that genetic genealogy can show all potential
00:43:31
Speaker
distant relatives. From my understanding, CODIS can show direct matches, so if I submit my DNA and I go missing, then it would be a 100% match, or it could be people who share a large person percentage of their DNA. Right. But it couldn't necessarily say, Oh, this might be your second cousin.
00:44:03
Speaker
the way genetic genealogy can. So the further we can make the reach of potential relatives, obviously the greater the chance of giving Penny Doe her name back, of finding out who she is.
Community Impact and Search for Justice
00:44:17
Speaker
But as of November 2022, which was one of the more recent articles that I could find mentioning Penny Doe and the progress in her case, the result of the genetic genealogy testing was still pending.
00:44:31
Speaker
in November 2022 and even an article by Ron Wilshire for explorejeffersonpa.com that was written in, it was written in June 2018 but it was updated in June 2024. So this year mentioned potentially ruling ruling out one possible match that of Barbara Miller but it didn't mention any news regarding positively identifying penny dough. So we have this genetic testing done in 2022, but as of that article in 2024, again, it doesn't seem like there are any relatives. So no new news. Right. But it's not just penny dough's true identity that still needs to be uncovered for closure. You brought this up earlier, Maggie.
00:45:26
Speaker
We still also need to find the identity of the perpetrator. I feel like sometimes we forget that because we get so caught up in we don't know who this person is and we want to you know give them their name back. But we also have the other part that we want to give them justice, which is finding out who did this to them. Right. And while we do not have many clues to lead us to this answer either, we do have some details that could be clues in the investigation. So let me tell you about those now. The question of whether Penny Doe's killer was a local or an out of towner has been a central focus of the investigation. And those are really are only two options. Right. It was someone local. It's an out of towner. Authorities have long suspected, like you mentioned earlier, that the perpetrator was likely a local.
00:46:25
Speaker
Give myself a pat on the back. I know you do you deserve it because they think this given the remote location of where her body was found, which was around three miles away from the closest interstate.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, because I feel like if it was out of town, you're just going to dump them on the side of the interstate. and Yeah, you're not traveling back roads. And you know what, I started thinking about this when i I was typing up this episode and I said, you know, similar to what you said, out of towners aren't going to be traveling back roads, especially in a rural county. And then I thought, well, they might, in today's world, if they're using masks or Waze,
00:47:06
Speaker
And one route is really backed up. It might send you on a more rural road to avoid traffic. But yeah in 1990, we're pre-maps and pre-ways. What was that one thing you had to print off that had the direct map? MapQuest, yeah. Yeah. We're also pre-mapQuest.
00:47:28
Speaker
and the area where Penito's body was discovered it was described as quote a secluded intersection of Lawrence Road end quote obviously again beneath that former railroad bed that was known locally as the trestle and it it wasn't easily accessible to those unfamiliar with the area so those are the clues that kind of say okay well this was someone local. However, however, the location, the trestle, it was a locally well known place, which so that's when I was talking about it earlier because
00:48:14
Speaker
What kids are playing there, it is locally well known. It has a name. So then why would someone local put the body in an area that people may frequent or visit? I thought the exact same thing. So on the one hand I said, okay.
00:48:31
Speaker
This is a locally well-known place, so that does mean that locals had knowledge of where it is and may have transported her body there. I mean, one source I read said that local authorities did have some belief that a local was behind the crime and that fear of retaliation from the local the perpetrator may have been what kept this information secret for as long as it has been. But like you said, the fact that the trestle is so well known locally, if somebody from the area had committed the crime, they would have known that somebody would find the body sooner rather than later.
00:49:19
Speaker
And so then I keep thinking, okay, well, how well known was the trestle? Okay, we know people knew of it, but do remember that is a small amount of people, because this is a small township. It's close enough, even though it's rural, to houses that the children walked there. This reminds me of A place that my cousins and I used to play in back home so um like over the hill at my grandparents house was like this somebody had dumped a really long time ago an old
00:50:01
Speaker
like vending machine and it had made like vegetation not develop there and we kind of had that as like our hangout spot for a really long time and like all the kids knew about it and went there and played there but a lot of adults didn't go there so I wonder if this thing like the grown-ups wouldn't have been there maybe and they kids i don't even with the kids They're saying the medical examiner that this body has been there for one to three months. So the area can't be that frequented. Yeah. Because somebody would have found her before now and that. She had been there one to three months or she had just been dead. well They're saying that she had been there one to three months because of the decomposition.
00:50:53
Speaker
Okay, I was gonna say maybe they moved her like after her body. Oh, I see. Well, and they said too, yeah again, playing devil's advocate themselves, that the presence of the railroad tracks nearby, it does introduce the possibility that an out of town perpetrator may have just followed the tracks and then stumbled upon this secluded spot. It's not likely, but it is possible.
00:51:25
Speaker
And so again, we're kind of up in the air. Adding to the intrigue of the case is an anonymous letter received by authorities in the summer of 2002.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah, more than a decade after the crime. The contents of this letter remain undisclosed, but, in I know, I wish I knew, but investigators i earnestly believe that the author of the letter may possess valuable information that could shed light on Penny Doe's identity and the circumstances leading to her death.
00:52:06
Speaker
law enforcement have repeatedly issued public pleas for the author of this letter to come forward, but those pleas have unfortunately gone unanswered. So whoever wrote this, like sent the letter and then has been silent since then. And we don't necessarily think this
Potential Leads and Speculations
00:52:28
Speaker
person's the killer. We just think this person has important information that could help the investigation. Yes.
00:52:35
Speaker
I know um for now be brave the information provided by this anonymous author obviously seems like it is crucial in so finally solving this case and their cooperation is vital if we're going to bring justice for Penny Doe. So I'm like you Maggie, I urge that letter writer to either come forward or if you're still afraid, and that's why it was an anonymous letter, provide more information in another letter that can lead authorities in the right direction.
00:53:09
Speaker
And there's one other key detail to mention Maggie that may or may not be linked to the case. One lead that investigators explored was the possibility that Penny Doe attended an outdoor rock concert called Music Alley, which took place on Memorial Day weekend, which was May 27th, 1990.
00:53:35
Speaker
And it happened, this rock concert, just 15 miles away from where her body was found. And that kind of matches up with the timeline because they found her in July, right? Yes.
00:53:51
Speaker
And they said that the decomposition could have happened quicker because of how hard it was. The concert of this music alley featured a lineup of rock bands that included The Stand, Down to the Wire, Lawyers, Guns and Money, and B.E. Taylor and Cleveland. None of these have I heard of, but I am telling people in case they have heard of them and maybe it gives some sort of clue. But Maggie, in this tiny, tiny town,
00:54:22
Speaker
of 1500. Over 5000 people attended this concert.
00:54:32
Speaker
So then there would have been like out of town. Yeah, it took place on a nearby farm. But there were so many people there. They clearly traveled not just from neighboring counties, but from neighboring states, like Ohio and West Virginia.
00:54:48
Speaker
could connect back to her good healthy teeth. Additionally, the bands themselves and those who traveled with the bands also came from states across the country like West Virginia.
00:55:02
Speaker
However, I will say there is no evidence to prove that Penny Doe was among the attendees, that she doesn't have any tickets on her, no hand stamps, anything like that. And the significance of this event, it does remain uncertain other than what you mentioned, that the time frame of the concert being two months before the discovery of her body neatly fits into that time of death being one to three months before the discovery.
00:55:34
Speaker
While it's unclear whether Penny Doe attended the concert, the possibility that her killer may have been present at the concert can't be ruled out either because the concert's proximity to the location where Penny Doe's body was found coupled with the large number of people in attendance raises the possibility or at least the probability that the perpetrator may have crossed paths with Penny Doe at the event Or the perpetrator could have been drawn to the area due to the concert. So again, it could have been an out of towner.
00:56:14
Speaker
The Doe Network's information about Penny Doe also mentions the following, quote, authorities are convinced there are individuals in Clarion County who had contact with the woman and can help state police identify her and her killer. They do not believe the woman is from the county or the immediate area, but believe she was brought to the area by a local individual.
00:56:44
Speaker
They also believe she was in Clarion County at most a month. before she was killed." quote So that source, it throws everything into question for me because it leaves open the possibility that maybe she formed a relationship with somebody local and so they brought her there. Or this was a local person who invited Penny Doe there for a reason, the concert or otherwise. And it leaves open the possibility that Penny Doe had been in the area for longer potentially than just the day of the concert.
00:57:21
Speaker
So Maggie, what are your thoughts? But then if she had been in the area longer, unless they live this relationship, they live in like a more secluded area, wouldn't she have ran into people in town and people would not recognize her maybe? I don't know, I just feel like the concert being in town,
00:57:47
Speaker
is almost too coincidental for it not to be connected. Now, I don't know if that means her killer was also from out of town, but I do think that I can say with 85% certainty that a penny dough was from out of town. That's a pretty good percent.
00:58:11
Speaker
Even without an identification of Penny Doe, the discovery of her remains changed the local community in many ways. According to an article by Veronica Fulton for NBC News in which Angie Clinger was interviewed, quote, Angie Clinger told Dateline, she remembers the aftermath of finding Penny Doe's remains. I mean, it was a big thing in our area, she said. Clarion County is a tiny small town and not much like that happens around here.
00:58:41
Speaker
Angie said the community definitely tensed up after Penny Doe was found. We would walk miles and never think twice, Angie said. It definitely changed. Like, we weren't allowed to go out because we had no idea at the time if Penny Doe's killing would be an isolated incident or if the person responsible was still in the community." End quote.
00:59:11
Speaker
parents guarded their children more
Ongoing Quest for Answers and Justice
00:59:14
Speaker
closely. And as you can imagine, the impact of the discovery had an even stronger impact on Angie Clinger herself, who told Dateline that she feels an attachment to the case, not only because of her role in Penny Doe's discovery, but because that discovery happened the day before Angie's birthday. It's a memory that has co-mingled with the joys of birthday celebrations year after year.
00:59:39
Speaker
But Angie has used it for good by continually agreeing to interviews from journalists because she hopes that by sharing the story of Penny Doe, someone will come forward with information. It's that same article by Veronica Fulton in which Angie stated the following, quote, I just feel like little old me probably can't do anything.
01:00:03
Speaker
If it had publicity, I really think that, I don't know, I just have this gut feeling there, like that's what it needs because people obviously have heard things. Somebody knows something." end quote My hope is that she's right and that the painful memories of discovery that sit with Angie on each of her birthdays might one day be replaced with the knowledge that she helped to give Penny Doe her name back. The pursuit of justice and closure for Penny Doe remains paramount. Identifying her is the first step in providing answers to the many questions surrounding her untimely death and holding those responsible accountable. Not knowing the identity of the victim makes seeking justice for her murder nearly impossible.
01:00:58
Speaker
A name is so important because it can lead investigators to her family, friends, social circles, revealing a world of potential connections, and offering a much needed starting point for the investigation.
01:01:15
Speaker
Identifying Penny Doe would not only provide closure to her family, who have undoubtedly endured years of agonizing uncertainty, but also bring solace to the community, allowing them to finally begin to heal from this tragic event. Anyone with information regarding Penny Doe's case is strongly urged to contact the Pennsylvania State Police Troop C Clarion Criminal Investigations Unit at 814 two two six one seven one zero or the Clarion County Coroner's Office
01:01:57
Speaker
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Audience Engagement and Next Steps
01:02:06
Speaker
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01:02:27
Speaker
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