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024 - American Rugby Story w/ Nicole Heavirland
144 Plays2 months ago
Nicole Heavirland's rugby journey embodies the evolution of the sport in America. In this episode, the three-time Olympian opens up about her transition from basketball to rugby, the unique perspective of being both an Olympic alternate and competitor, and the leadership lessons learned as Captain of the USA Women's 7's squad.
Nicole shares her powerful philosophy of "trying to beat Nicole Heavirland every day" and reveals how her coaches have shaped her approach to the game. Nicole's insights on resilience, leadership, and the pursuit of excellence offer valuable lessons that extend far beyond the rugby pitch.
PLUS, don't miss her story about arm wrestling Jason Kelce in Paris!
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Transcript
Nicole Haverland's Rugby Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
One of my teammates likes to say, hey, Nicole, like you like to put your head where people don't even like to put their feet. So it's like, yeah, I get in there and it's fun. Learn your super shrinks early. What am I good on? i'm Okay, i'm I'm a really good kicker. i'm I have really good lateral step and it's like honing on those. I have like one of the best passes in the world, you know? So honing on that and make it even a better pass. I think once you get to the elite level, like you could get to the Olympics for being very good at two things. And if you're really good at it, they will select you.
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome to the captains and coaches podcast, where we explore the art and the science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. I'm your host Tex McCulkin and today's guest is a force in American rugby. Nicole Haverland, a rugby sevens Olympian who has helped revolutionize the sport in the United States, including a win of New Zealand.
00:00:49
Speaker
and a bronze medal at the 2024 Paris Olympics. From playing on her boys team at her Montana high school to captaining USA women's rugby seven squad, Nicole's journey is a testament to breaking barriers and relentless self-improvement.
Leadership and Personal Growth in Rugby
00:01:04
Speaker
In this episode, we'll explore her switch from basketball to rugby at West Point, the leadership lessons she's learned as team captain of the USA sevens and the personal growth she faced when coach made a captain change leading up to the Tokyo Olympics.
00:01:19
Speaker
Nicole drops a lot of one-liners and insights on building a championship mindset that I love, including finding your super strengths in a philosophy she calls trying to beat Nicole Haverlet every day. Now, let's pass it off to Nicole. Ready, ready, and break.
00:01:44
Speaker
shout out our friend mutual acquaintance Lou, she's a freakin beast and connect us so I'm grateful. So hello Lou, get it out of the way early. But thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. Sweet. but Your team took over the world. It was one of the most fascinating stories from the Olympics, caught away if I've had a lot of rugby pals in my life and they got so excited that not only that rugby isn't in the Olympics, USA started to turn around and and put up some good numbers and then take a stand on the podium.
00:02:20
Speaker
so I know it didn't start with this Olympics. It's been a long road for you to get to that place. So start with athletics, start with rugby, start with life that led you to that awesome experience with your team.
From West Point to the National Team
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I've been playing rugby since 2011 at this point. Um, so it's been, you know, it's been a long time, long time coming. Um, I'm fortunate enough to be on the national team for 10 years at this point. So let Bix.
00:02:53
Speaker
Um, two, three World Cups. So, um, it's been a journey. It's been fun. Um, and yeah, it's like we had some, some huge success this summer. Um, but yeah, there was definitely some, there's definitely some background to that story and, um, some buildup I'd say.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, I know you went to West Point, but not for rugby. So what led to that moment where you decided to go to West Point? I had some buddies, one of my friends that I grew up in high school with is the all time leading rusher for a single season. So knowing his process just to get accepted and then play a sport. So why West Point? Why the commitment? And then what sport did you go to play there?
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah, so ah my first love was basketball. um I grew up in Whitefish, Montana, just you know playing basketball any chance I could get. ah I was wasn't the tallest, um and I was told you know it's going to be a hard journey for you because you know of your height, and I saw that as a challenge.
00:03:58
Speaker
So my main goal was to play Division I basketball um coming out of high school and I ended up leaving Montana to go to a prep school back east called Phillips Exeter Academy um just for two years. My twin and I went. We repeated our junior year ah because the academics were so strong they just suggested, you know,
00:04:21
Speaker
We want you guys to fit in seamlessly, so we'd have you repeat your junior year. So I actually ended up doing five years of high school. And at Phillips Exeter, I was you know then kind of seeing like more recruitment options in basketball. I was visiting Brown. I was visiting a Holy Cross and um Vermont schools and I was like kind of like had more of an opportunity to just get seen as a basketball player and to get you know a better education out in East Coast and I got seen as a basketball player from a West Point recruit and
00:04:59
Speaker
I was like, well, I mean, it's Division I. It's a pretty strict, you know, school. I'm very, like, kind of like-minded. I i ah i want to be around people who are, like, goal-oriented and and, like, just want to get to where they want to get. So I was like, let's do it. um So I ended up going to West Point in, what was it? 2014. And I played basketball just for a semester there. Um, I was a freshman, uh, didn't get many minutes. I played like in the air force game. I remember, but other than that, it was like, okay, I guess I'm not just going to be a starter here and I have to earn my, you know, my position. Um, and after that first semester, the coach at West for the rugby team called me Bill Leclerc. And I was like, Hey, you know, we have a spot for you. We have a spot for you.
00:05:51
Speaker
And at the time I wasn't really enjoying basketball, you know, I wanted to play. And I didn't see like, I didn't really foresee this, like, you know, like this hiccup in the road where like, Oh, I'm actually not playing. And ah um Bella for rugby was like, I'll, you know, you're gonna play for me. So I had started, you know, obviously rugby in high school. So since 2011 I'd played, but I didn't play at prep school cause they didn't have a team. Um, so I kind of took a break and then, you know, joined the rugby team at West Point and ended up playing just two semesters for them, uh, before I got the call to come out to California to be a full-time resident at the Olympic training center.
00:06:31
Speaker
That's wild. So how did that recruiting process go? Did Coach put in a call for you? Did they have some game film? For me, it was ah actually back in Montana. I went to like an all state tournament where we played in Idaho and I was a part of like the you know the top players of Montana and and there was a USA Rugby recruiter there and that's when I first got seen was when I was in high school and so since high school I was I had kept coming back to California to go to these camps you know for like a week of week at a time so I actually had been to the Olympic Train Center as a high schooler and um that coach at the time for the
00:07:15
Speaker
for the national team. His name it his name was ah Rick Suggett. He passed away not too long ago, but um he used to call me the high schooler because I was amongst like all these senior players who were like 20 and 12, like 30. I was just a high schooler learning the system. and um I'll never forget my first camp out there. um I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with every little bit like from the training like all day long to like hanging out with your teammates and having meals with your teammates and just like the camaraderie is like I instantly fell in love and I i just remember always wanting to come back you know to camps. Yeah and so did a lot of those
00:08:02
Speaker
kids or girls that you were playing with at that time become your future teammates? Yes, yep, they did. Thankfully, still some of my teammates actually. That's awesome.
00:08:15
Speaker
I'll never forget rocking up in a Lev Kelter showing me how to kick. And that's just what rugby is. It's like, Hey, I'm going to teach you this skill. I know. And cause I want you to know it and I want it. It's only going to make me better. So she teaches me how to kick. Now I become a kicker and she's still my teammate. You know, it's like, it's just, um, there's no other sport like it in my opinion. Yeah, that that's cool. it's It's such a unique experience that even.
00:08:44
Speaker
It brings people together because you want to teach others, you want the sports to succeed. So you're so willing to give, give, give. And I imagine that's what but the coaches at the camp were wanting for you guys. They loved this sport and they wanted to give it to you. And then that became infectious. And now yeah here you are continuing to give back to the game. Yep.
00:09:08
Speaker
No, for sure. And I think it it comes from the top and it trickles down to the bottom in that sense. Like a lot of my coaches have been players. And so they get that, they get that you know like, I'm going to teach you what I know. And even if it means one day, you're going to take my position because I want this sport to grow. Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
that That's a high level of selflessness and leadership. you write You're right. You're training the people to take over for your your position, your job, because you just want the the ah heartbeat to continue on. So when you when you got that call to go out to California, was it just a like a hell yeah decision? Or did you have to mull it over and think about it and do some pros and cons? ah You know, it was really, really hard. um West Point ended up not being my favorite experience. I'm glad I did it. I have no regrets. But what I found is I just, I wasn't enjoying it. And I think it's because
00:10:12
Speaker
I was like still getting opportunities to come out to California to play at these camps, but it kept getting harder and harder. Like my commander would be like, oh, I don't know if you can miss that much school. You know, you're a plebe. Like that's not what plebes do. You got to stay in, you know, grind it out here. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's my dream over there. Like the Olympics. Like, so in terms of like leaving to go play on the national team, it was a hard, it was an easy yes.
00:10:43
Speaker
It was however very hard to leave West Point because they they make you sign so many things and yeah it takes about a month to like you know get out of there and it's like they're like are you sure you want to leave? Are you sure you want to leave? in Someone, I was always raised you know to value education. So that was a hard choice to leave you know a great institution for education, you know for my future. um My parents were always like putting us in the best position possible for to to be at the best school. So when we were growing up, it's like, nope, you're not going to go to the local high school. You're going to drive 30 minutes one way to this high school. and it's like
00:11:21
Speaker
All right, once you're done with that high school and we see like it's, you know, it's not giving you as much as we want it to give you, we're going to send you off to prep school back East. And they just kept, you know, striving for a better education for us. And therefore I was like, you know, I really valued my education. So that was hard to leave West in that sense. Yeah. And going out to California, did you find a new school to to participate in while you're training?
Balancing Rugby with Education
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, you know, when I first joined, ah we are affiliated with DeVry University, which is an online um program, which really is suitable to our lifestyle as, you know, professional athletes. We we are training, you know,
00:12:06
Speaker
almost five days a week, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. most days, and you're gonna need like an online option in that sense, so I did ah pursue some classes through that, and then I was um enrolled in Southwestern College for ah my first responder class, um and then I finally got my EMT um license last summer, so nice yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
continuing to build. So I mean, that life as a professional athlete, was it as as scheduled and to a T as West Point? Was that an easy transition to West Point prepare you for this pro life? It's a good question. I mean, my experience at West Point was like, there was never enough time in the day. It's like,
00:12:59
Speaker
I was you know waking up at like five in the morning, could you go do my lift for basketball, then running down, back down to get dressed and ready for classes and then running to lunch and then running to practice and running to go do my chores. And then I had, you know, like that two hour left two hours left to do the the homework that I needed to do. So in terms of the difference between West Point and professional life, I think it was completely different. um I think It's a dream come true job. you know It's like you get to work out for a living, be outside, and train with your best friends, eat with your best friends, travel the world with your best friends. And it's like, I could do this forever if like if my body would allow it. you know Yeah. And shortly after that came the 2016 Olympics, correct?
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, so that's that was another reason why I wanted to leave West Point, is because it it aligned perfectly with the 2016 Olympics. So I left in 2015 November, ah for west I left West Point in November 2015, and then ah Rio Olympics was 2016 in what, August?
00:14:14
Speaker
So I had not that many months as a 20 year old to make that squad. And I ultimately fell short of one. ah We roster 12 to go to the Olympics and then we bring a 13th, 14th for reserve. um So it was hard that, you know, it's like that that experience was very hard. It was similar to like,
00:14:43
Speaker
you know, going to an amusement park but not being able to ride any other rides. Yeah. So speak to us about the the mental space. Did you now set all your sights on 2020? Were you taking it in? ah what What was it like as a ah learning experience because you weren't able to step on the field just yet? Yeah.
00:15:05
Speaker
astro rio i kind of I kind of like dove back into school. I was like, okay, I gotta go back to school. You know, education's very important. What am I gonna do with my life? Professional sport is not forever. And I i found i was i remember applying to all these schools and and um and I was like stressing so much about it because I really loved what I was doing on the rugby side of things. And then one day my dad was like, Nicole,
00:15:36
Speaker
just enjoy rugby. like This isn't forever. School will always be there. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do that. So I was like, let's let's do this. let's If we're gonna be here, let's go for it.
00:15:48
Speaker
and I actually was named ah captain not shortly after that, um under my coach Chris Brown. So I was captain for about two years. And um that was a really fun experience. And I took a lot from that role. So, and then it was- Were you appointed? Was the team captain chosen by your team? How does that work for the rugby?
00:16:18
Speaker
In this scenario, it was appointed by my coach. Um, and now we have a different system where it's, you know, player and coach. Um, but yeah, I'd say like the biggest thing I took away from being captain was, um, just like learning my style of leadership, you know, it's like,
00:16:43
Speaker
It was like at some moments I was trying to be someone else and I was like, that's not going to work. You know, so the way I lead is kind of speak less. And when you do speak, it's like, and it it holds a lot more weight. And obviously lead by example, I think a lot of my teammates would agree with me, but I'm one to just like put in the work and and do it. You know, it's like, Nicole's going to do the extras. Nicole's going to be there late recovering, but like,
00:17:12
Speaker
just leading by example and and and not being someone you who you aren't in a way. yeah um Although the one of the toughest things about being a captain was than not being a captain.
Adapting to Changes and Setbacks
00:17:28
Speaker
So it's like every year, you know, every season, coach selects a captain, you know, I get the opportunity to to lead the team for two years. And then come that third year, it's like, hey, Nicole, we're actually going to look at someone else. And that that was a big shot to the ego. I'll never forget like that personal feeling.
00:17:46
Speaker
um and just like having to really just put your ego to the side and just, okay, that's out of my control. What can I focus on now? And I actually ended up having one of the best tournaments of my career after that. I was like, okay, now I can focus on me. Like, let's go. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of growth. And then a lot of people would choose to not, they may be internalize it and take it the wrong direction and see it as an attack.
00:18:18
Speaker
So did you have a moment where it's like, I need to turn this into growth? Was there a like a 24 hour, I'm going to give myself a sad 24 hours and then we're going to get back to work? I'd say it was a little bit more than 24 hours. I think my ego is was shot for a little bit. You know, i don't I don't think I dwelled on it too long. I mean, I probably gave myself a couple more days than 24 hours, but That's I think what life is, it's like so much change is happening and it's it's how you adapt. And are you gonna dwell on it for months or a couple days and then move on? Because it's like...
00:19:02
Speaker
How fast can you adapt? And I think i at that time I worked with my sports psych, who is Peter Haberl. That man is amazing. He's been to, I think, 10-plus Olympics now, both winter and summer Olympics, and he knows everything about me. so Um, we worked a lot in that timeframe about just like, you know, controlling what you can control and, and putting your, your, your efforts somewhere else and, and your energy and yeah. it Yeah. I imagine there was an opportunity to then reflect and then have, have a, a professional help guide you through how you can still be a leader. You don't necessarily need the C on your chest.
00:19:52
Speaker
but lean into, like you said, speak less. and ah When you do so continue to speak, it still has weight, it still has words, because you've now, you've been there. You've been a part of the team for a long time, so people still see that. Yes, 100%. Man, yeah, it's so ah when you were captain, what was your connection with your coach? Did you guys have one-on-one meetings? Did he hand off responsibilities for then you to lead? What was that relationship like with Coach Brown?
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, so we um we had a lot of meetings. um you know we I was the bridge from from him to the team and um you know just trying to relay all that information that I was getting from him to the team. ah We had player meetings once a week where we just like, hey guys,
00:20:46
Speaker
It's a circle um because no one is above you. No one is behind you. We're all equal here. So please express what you want to say in a safe environment. And then if something comes up, then I'll go talk to him, right? So that was one of my things is like everyone is equal. You know, it's like you have a voice even if you've been here for a month, you know.
00:21:07
Speaker
or if you've been here for years, like your voice matters and um that was something I really valued is like doing for the girls is like those player meetings to share ah what was on their mind and what we needed to, you know, like attack head-on. And then there was a point where I was co-captain with another player, Lauren Doyle. So that that changed things where She was more of like, you know, the um on-field like, hey, I think we need to do this in practice. And I think we need to change this, you know, like, like playing rugby wise. And I was more of the like, I can, I can relate to everyone. I can talk to everyone. um Let me go check on X, Y, and Z player, you know, it's like, yeah oh.
00:21:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's it it's important, like you said, two to find your voice. And a lot of coaches, they hand off responsibility to team captains. Oh, you're the quarterback, you're the leader of this team. Now, go go get everyone riled up. But they may not be that type of person. So it's important that that I mean, you were able to find your voice. And that that one-on-one, that's so much more and impactful ah for the team. And coaches don't always see that. And so it's cool for for you to just realize and lean into your strengths. And then it's cool that you are teamed up and co-captain with that that that vocal leader. So now you can yin and yang it.
00:22:44
Speaker
and ah balance give each other balance. So I love the co-captain concept. So how how did that change now instead of being the sole captain, co-captain? Was that a welcome experience for for you or was it another ego battling?
00:23:04
Speaker
Definitely welcome because holy crap we have so many different dynamics on that team and like not one person can relate to everyone so I think like I was like yes yes I co-captain let's do it because this could probably like run you so thin it just to be that singular captain I try to take care of everyone and everyone's needs. and And so I think it only benefited the whole entire team. It only benefited me. It wasn't an ego shot. I think it was like, how can we do this together for sure? and know Yeah.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah. Coaches or teams make that right decision. Captains, they, they come together and lean in. So that's how you know, they were the right balance, the right fit for that team. And, uh, I think it's important to, to note with the captain, it's not always the best player on the team. It's the player best player for the team. Yep.
00:24:03
Speaker
cool that ah Coach Brown had an opportunity to to see and and find a ah balance for you there. Time out. What if I told you the path to transformation isn't about rigid schedules and crushing yourself daily in the gym. It's about moving with purpose and intention. At captains and coaches, we understand that true leadership starts with embodiment. When you look the part, you lead the part.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:25:10
Speaker
and get started today. And now back to the show. Ready, ready, and break. Was this leading up to the 2020? So were you captain, co-captain, and then what led to ah the the training for the Tokyo 2020 Olympics in respect to leadership?
Olympic Experiences and Challenges
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, so I I did it for two years, and i can't call I can't recall exactly what those two years were, but i remember not I remember having a couple years of playing before the Tokyo Olympics, so I was no longer captain in the build-up for Tokyo. um And I don't remember how many years that was, but um that was I do remember 2019 season. That was one of our best seasons we've ever had. I was i was captain.
00:26:00
Speaker
I believe in that year and we won so many games. It was unbelievable. And my one of my most valuable or memorable experience was beating New Zealand for the first time in the final in Biarritz in 2019. We wore blue and they wore we we made them wear their white jerseys. so Oh, there you go. yeah Take away the power. Yep. I remember in the locker room before that game just being like, we're going to win this game.
00:26:31
Speaker
them. And it was like such a powerful feeling that, you know, with rugby, it's like, it's a drop of a ball, like we're like, sometimes it drops your way. Sometimes it drops the other team's way. So, but we had just had like so much like connection going into that game ah and the buildup of the tournament. It was just like, it was, we, we, we all believed it. That's, that's the other thing is like, we had belief that we were going to win. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the,
00:27:01
Speaker
things I love of just about team dynamics in the realm of athletics is that energy, that feel where it's just, we got it today. This this is our time and everybody knows it. Nobody has to say a word. They don't have to to fake it till they feel it.
00:27:16
Speaker
It's just a sense in the air on certain game days. And yeah, it's it's cool that you highlighted that. I was reflecting on some of my athletic career and it's just like, oh yeah, I've i've had those days and those moments. This is it. Every dog has a day and it's ours today. Yeah. Yeah. That that is cool to take that that prize from New Zealand too. Just the thee rugby country. Yep.
00:27:44
Speaker
um So in, in now entering into the, the Olympic space, like is, is, is the energy there? Is it a different kind of energy from Olympics to world cup to then just tournament play?
00:27:58
Speaker
100% the Olympics is like no other tournament. It will never compare. It's always going to be different no matter how much you want it to be the same. It's not the same. um I'd say you know Tokyo was my first experience playing and I've never felt more tired going into a tournament.
00:28:20
Speaker
Because there is so much stimulus. There's just everything so different. The beds suck. The food is different. you know You're walking on your feet way more than you're used to. And when we travel the world for tournaments, we're we are spoiled. We stay in you know really good tournaments in Dubai and and like wherever we go. And we have really good food most times. i'm most times but With the Olympics, it's like you are just like a small fish in a big, big, big lake, you know? And like, they don't, you're not as like well taken care of, it feels like so. um And then obviously, there's the pressure of performing your best at the Olympics. Like, there's that too, with the with the psychology side of things. So um with our sports, like we, we like to acknowledge it, like, hey, guys, this is
00:29:20
Speaker
This is not going to be, this is not going to be the same. We're not used to that. Can't compare it to our tournaments that we have, you know, every season. Um, so the pressure is on in a sense. So, yeah. So now did, did your work with the sports psych one-on-one help now prepare you to lead the team in that mindset shift where yes, there's pressure and we're here to perform.
00:29:48
Speaker
I mean, I think, I think it more, it comes down to the individual in that moment, in those, in that sense, like you have to do the work with him one-on-one. He's the professional with, you know, I think like I played so much rugby in my career that it doesn't come down to the skill anymore. but It comes down to what's going on in my head and that plays a big role. So.
00:30:18
Speaker
I think a lot of my teammates are at that point, obviously, too. It's like, where's your mind? What are you telling it? you know Positive thoughts, negative thoughts. But yeah, I think it comes down to the individual to do that work. um And thankfully, we are offered other psychologists like um opportunity as well. of like Say you don't like really match with Peter. It's like, OK, the United States Olympic Committee can you know help you find another one.
00:30:49
Speaker
Really cool. We're really fortunate. Yeah. And so speak to us like the pregame speeches, the, is it all hype or is it like zoned in where we got our headphones on and we're locked in.
00:31:02
Speaker
Everyone's different, we call it our warrior dial. um And it's like, hey, you know, Spiff's warrior dial before this gold medal match, whatever, might be like this and like monotone, like just, no, you can't tell if she's sad, she's happy, she's excited, she's just, you know, flatlined. And then you got other players who were like, listening to music, dancing, s singing. and and everyone's just in the locker room doing their own thing you know some people are like going to the bathroom for the 40th time or sitting down because they want to you know rest their legs it's like you kind of just got to respect everyone's you know path to to the to get to that field and um I say the captain though is someone who does try to hype us up you know Nia Tapper was our captain leading into the Paris Olympics and
00:31:56
Speaker
She always had something to say um whether it be like fire us up or you know Something very like concentrated and goal oriented, you know um But yeah, everyone's different we called her and we we don't want to be too high with our warrior dial too soon and we don't want to be too low so it's like finding your Your little ritual in that yeah, yeah, I like that warrior dial And was there any moments during competition where you leaned into it to where it's it's a call out, it's a focus where, hey, we need to turn it up here. So speak to us where you feel the energy start to to to not go your way. What's your then leadership approach to help your team redirect and and turn up that dial?
00:32:46
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm one of my biggest values is fitness. um I can go for days and I've always been one to be able to play every minute of every game. And I've never lost a fitness test on the national team. So big, ah big value of mine. So when I see like, you know, like the energy dropping and, you know, teammates tired or whatnot, it's like,
00:33:14
Speaker
They call me like the clapper. So I'm like clap and like, let's go guys. Come on. Like, let's bring it up. Sometimes I'm like, if the other team makes a mistake, I show that energy and I'm like, let's go. Let's look where we are. You know, let's go. Like, I'm like bringing people up. Eye contact is huge for me. Physical touch. It's, it's like, even if I'm dog tired, no one's going to know it. And contagious, you know, and in that sense and.
00:33:42
Speaker
Communication obviously obviously is huge. When you get tired, you know your communication drops. um and i always My dad likes to say this, but rugby is a lot more fun when you're fit. I i like that. Yeah, I coach high school lacrosse. I'm going to steal that. One thing I love to teach the the dudes I'm working with is body language.
00:34:03
Speaker
so We're standing up. We're not allowed to rest with our hands above our head like this. We're not allowed to rest on our knees. I don't care what the science says. There's a study that came out that said, oh, stop. So now teaching the guys just the the simple body language during practice. And then I love season because I get to redirect. And when I see a guy across the the sideline,
00:34:30
Speaker
Oh, they're tired. We got them. So calling it out for the the the dudes to check out other opponents body language where you you said you you call out where they make mistakes. Like turn that into momentum. I love how you do that too. I honestly, one of my things, it's it sounds weird, but like I get energy when I see someone tired. No wonder you didn't get along. It's great.
00:34:59
Speaker
When we're like going toe to toe in like a fitness, whatever, and I'm, I'm, I'm dog tired, but I see you drop and I'm like, let's go. Yeah. It fires me up. that' That's great. The, ah so now new members that are joining the team, like you've established that you're not, you're not going to lose any test. So does they, do they start to turn up their training as soon as they get into it?
00:35:26
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's getting actually interesting you bring that up because after the Paris Olympics we had one of the biggest like reset of our programs that it's ever seen. So I think we signed and nine new players um and ah tomorrow we have a fitness test.
00:35:47
Speaker
um So it'll be interesting to see because these girls are like, you know, 22, 23, you know, young guns. I'm, you know, one of the oldest on the teams now at 30, almost 30. And I'm not gonna let them beat me. What's the fitness test?
00:36:06
Speaker
It's called the Bronco. um You start at the sideline, you start the tri-zone, go out 22 meters and back, and then 40 meters and back, 60 meters and back, that is five times, and you do it as quick as possible. You're going for you're going for gold in that.
00:36:28
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I've never lost before. So I got, oh but oh man but, um, they, we started our season, obviously like, you know, months ago, but I haven't been able to run the Brown coat just because I've been rehabbing my Achilles, which I found out was partially torn after the Paris Olympics. So now I'm full back in the squad as, as of two days ago. So sweet. Yeah. Feeling, feeling good there. I am feeling good. It's a.
00:36:58
Speaker
Injury is just kind of part of our sport. It's not a matter of like if it's a matter of one. So just part of the experience. Yeah. That's any, any major setbacks in respect to injury that you had to, to overcome both mentally and physically to continue to play at a high level. Yeah.
Dealing with Injuries and Recovery
00:37:18
Speaker
Uh, last year.
00:37:20
Speaker
in Australia, so last year around this time in January, I broke my left leg. um And that girl, the Australian girl just, we were playing Australia in Australia, funny enough, but the girl's knee just came right into my fib, my left fib and cracked it. um And that break was six months from the ah Paris Olympics, so that was...
00:37:44
Speaker
That was a total struggle. um I remember talking to my sports site but actually and being like, I was just like, I feel so much pain because I was pushing, you know, every day, like the paint, it's it was at a matter it was just matter of my pain tolerance because the fib is non-weight bearing. So you can actually start walking on it like day three, day four.
00:38:07
Speaker
is basically what they say, because it builds you know your your your bone back. I didn't have to have surgery. you know It was just a hairline crack, so that that's also part of the the situation I was in. um so At that point, I was just pain tolerance. I did the bone stem every day. I was eating as much as much calcium I could you know absorb a day. um I was doing acupuncture, obviously massage. and And just doing every little thing I could to make that Olympic team. And I ended up falling short, you know, I was a reserve. And then after the Olympics, I find out my right Achilles is partially torn. So we think it, you know, had to do with me compensating, but yeah.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, a um i my freshman year in college, I broke my fib. So that that was incredibly painful and I pushed it just to aim to return to play. ah Yeah, just I remember excruciating pain, yeah just like when I would go from laying down and then all the blood would then flow down to my ankle, just wherever that hairline fracture was.
00:39:22
Speaker
You just have to, you just have to eat it as the blood like went through the fracture. um So and yeah, non weight bearing, but it's still freaking hurts. And I had to remind myself like, Oh my gosh, this is so temporary. This is so temporary. But for a while, all I felt was pain every day, every second, because I was pushing it so hard. And now I don't even notice it, you know, like probably stronger than it was before.
00:39:52
Speaker
debt Well, that's how bones work. ah So now, were you able to be vocal? So even though you could not participate during this ah phase, where you're recovering from injury, were you able to then lean in more now to your voice, since your legs couldn't do the work?
00:40:11
Speaker
um You know, I don't really recall that being like a you know, like a goal of mine, I think it was just try to control everything I control. And if I wasn't in the field, I was watching my positions, seeing how they're doing it, you know, seeing how I would do it differently, watching film every night still. um And just also trying to enjoy every single process and in the journey of it because
00:40:46
Speaker
It was just, you know, a part of the journey. And yes, the goal was the Olympics, but like, I like to say like. If your sole goal is to get to the Olympics, you're going to get to the Olympics and it's going to feel like a very short field trip where you're back in like within seconds and it's like, wait, where did it go? And it's like, that's why you have to enjoy the build up and sit in you know the uncomfortable experience or the fun experience and just like really embrace it.
00:41:17
Speaker
Yeah. that That is a ah mindset mind set shift for a lot of athletes because they they put that big goal on the board. And then once they get there, there's this this feeling of of loss, of loss of identity. So now, did you always have this process mindset based off your experiences growing up and in previous athletic experiences?
00:41:44
Speaker
Um, it definitely has, that's definitely something I've, you know, built over the past, you know, ah professional career. I say ah I definitely don't think it was like innate right away. Um, but...
00:42:01
Speaker
It's, I think, you know, in the buildup of even Paris, like me and my best friend, Elona Mar, like, we were like, this is our goal. We're going to enjoy every lift, every meal with our team. We're going to put our phones down, enjoy being in Australia with our team, you know, and like, and just enjoy it. Like it's our last because tomorrow is not guaranteed, you know? And like, I think when you have people around you with like the same mindset, it definitely helps, but.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, I also, you know, it does help to be able to say, yes, I'm an Olympian. I went i played in Tokyo. I went to Rio. And then to, you know, for the build up to Paris, be like, whatever happens happens. You can't take that away from me of being Olympian. So let me just enjoy every other bit of it. And if it happens, sweet. That is like the cherry on top. But if it doesn't, it's like, I've gained so much from this experience already.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Did you get an Olympic tattoos? I do. I a ah rest here. Is it one trip? One, one for what? What is it? One Olympic tattoo per trip? he No, I just have one from Tokyo with like four Eagles because I'm the number four. Nice. you're um Yeah. That's cool. and I do. I do like to get tattoos around the world where like I've gotten one in Australia um because
00:43:35
Speaker
it's ah It's a passport stamp of when we arrived in Australia in 2017, but I got it because my coach at the time was like, hey, Nicole, I'm going to cut you if you don't perform well here. And I remember being so scared to like perform well and like talking to my but sports psych every day and being like, oh, Peter, this is what he told me. like What do we do?
00:43:59
Speaker
and Obviously, I didn't get cut, so I got a tattoo to remind me of like that process. But um the the main thing I took away from that was Peter was like, go enjoy it. Go enjoy Australia. like What do you love the most? I was like, well, I really love ice cream. And he's like, go taste go taste Australia like you taste ice cream and and like really savor it. That's some great guidance. Yeah.
00:44:29
Speaker
For your coach that said that to you, was was he always that direct? Or was this a one-off to see if this kind of motivation worked for you at this time?
00:44:41
Speaker
It was kind of a one off and it was at the time I was like, this is so cruel. Like what?
00:44:48
Speaker
um But I think he was seeing what i what I could do, like what I could produce and he was testing me. Richie Walker has his name and he still lives, actually like he lives like five minutes away from me and we still are in contact. So good um yeah, he was a big,
00:45:09
Speaker
big moment of my career as well. and um but yeah so that the side checkcked i I have a lot of tattoos from around the world for for different reasons. that That's a unique thing. I've been fortunate six continents for all for coaching. I'm an Irish Catholic, so I can't get tattoos. My dad calls it disinheritance. so I just have a giant map ah with Lou's husband actually been to a number of these countries. but just pins. And this was his suggestion, just little pins and patches from every country ah just to maintain it. And then, you know, look at that board and it just takes me back to fun stories and experiences from ah from coaching all over the world. That's awesome. ah yeah and I think my mom would appreciate it. I still did that. It didn't get all these tattoos, but here we are.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, they they they have a ah true story and meaning, which is which is cool and and can always bring it up. And I mean, it's it's one look down if if you're you're competing, you just have that reminder right there so that it can recharge and spark you up. I like that. ah I listened to an interview where you said, I'm trying to beat Nicole every day.
Focus on Personal Growth and Mentorship
00:46:28
Speaker
ah What does that quote represent and then how did you come up with that mindset of how to talk to you yourself and motivate yourself? Yeah, I love that you brought that up um For me that quote is not or it's not focusing on anyone else because if you focus on what other what other people are doing you're gonna get it lost and you're gonna compare and that only brings it down this rabbit hole and and I think how I go about my day is is beating Nicole every day, even if it's just 0.01%. And it's like, if I did that, I can go to bed at night and you know feel like you know successful. And yeah, it's just as simple as that. It's just not focusing on anyone else because comparison is is a is a thief in a way. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:28
Speaker
Why like working with a lot of high schoolers is you're, you're teaching that mindset, that lesson. And they, there are thieves of just culture killers, team cancers. So it's envy, it's resentment, a lot of just natural human instincts. So teaching them how to redirect that into, into focus. So it's not, it's not comparing yourself to others.
00:47:54
Speaker
comparing yourself to who you were yesterday and teaching them that lesson as, I mean, minutes are so precious within athletics. And there's only so many minutes on the clock during a game, especially ah a short sevens game. So it's, it's helping teach those lessons. Yeah. So.
00:48:17
Speaker
That was a, that you bringing up the minutes is a big um lesson than learned that I've had to go through in my career was I used to play every second of every game. And now I'm at a point where I play, you know, three to five minutes a game, if that, and that has been a very big like mind shift for me. um For a while it's like, I,
00:48:46
Speaker
I put my value on minutes, right? And you can't do that. you can't You can't say, oh, I'm not a good player because I'm not playing this many minutes. It's like, okay, I get three minutes, you know, to make a difference. Let's go. That's going to be, you know, and it's like a little bit, you know, putting yourself to a side as well and and asking yourself what's best for the team in this moment as well. Yeah. so I mean, it's it's a mindset. You're now a specialist. they're They're calling you in for this moment in time. So I don't um don't know how long it's going to last, but we're going to go 100 miles an hour. Yep. So you you've come ah overcome a lot of challenges. You've had enormous successes all over the world and in respect to to rugby. What advice would you give 15-year-old Nicole
00:49:39
Speaker
way back when that has now doubled the life experience and helped you get to this moment. Oh, that's a good one. Um, I think, well, it might not have been exactly at 15, but, um,
00:49:59
Speaker
There's two things. I think I would have been like, Nicole, be like a sponge and soak up everything you can, whether it's someone wants to teach you how to play this position, say, okay, I'll learn that. And then tell you like, hey, you're gonna be a great fly half. And you're like, no, I'm gonna be a hooker. But no, it's like learn that position and get good at it because it's only gonna make you better. And if you don't know something,
00:50:27
Speaker
let someone teach you and and just soak it in with putting your ego to the side and just learn, learn, learn and just and like you know shake your head. and um i I say this story because I've had the privilege of watching Sami Sullivan ah grow into an amazing rugby player when she joined the team. I've never seen someone rise up to be a starter so fast.
00:50:50
Speaker
And the reason she was that way is because she soaked up everything like a sponge. And she put her ego to the side. And in practice, when people were giving her like feedback, it was like, OK, I'll do that. OK, I'll do that. Hey, Sammy, do this. OK. And it wasn and yeah a lot of these times, you see like players come into the program and and get this feedback in practice and be like, well, but what about this? and you know like But I did this. and it's like That's not the point. um i'm I'm someone who's been on this protein for, you know, nine years and i'm i'm trying to I'm trying to bring you up. And it's like just like kind of giving, just soaking it up like a sponge. That's like how I said it. So that's one thing. And then um learn your super shrinks early. I think um when you get to that elite level,
00:51:47
Speaker
Uh, I was trying to be a lot of things, you know, fast and, um, was one of them to be honest. And I was, it's not in me to be fast. Like it's, it's just not in my genetics to be super fast. So it's like, okay, what else can I focus on? And what am I good on? I'm okay. I'm a really good kicker. I have really good lateral step and it's like honing on those. I have like one of the best passes in the world, you know, so honing on that and make it even a better pass.
00:52:17
Speaker
Um, so I think once you get to the elite level, like you could get to the Olympics for being very good at two things. And if you're really good at it, they will select you, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's building the Avengers. We need all these different specialists that are really good at their craft. I did see a highlight where you absolutely demolished this one awesome.
00:52:44
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I love, I love contact. I grew up wrestling. I grew up playing tackle football. And, uh, one of my teammates likes to say, Hey, Nicole, like you like to put your head where people don't even like to put their feet. So it's like, yeah, I get in there and it's fun. Yeah. The super strengths. I like that phrase too. Um, I'm going to steal that for the high schoolers I'm working with. Uh, what's, what's you get the opportunity to step into a mentor role with these new players and athletes stepping into it. What's an important handoff to younger athletes as they level up from high school to college or from college to your professional ranks? What what do you want to hand off? What can they prepare themselves just in terms of character, leadership, mindset? What do you want to hand off to them to help them? That's actually one of my biggest roles right now.
00:53:42
Speaker
um on the team is is making sure the new girls are, you know, successful. um Everyone's different, like I've had conversations with one player that's like, like just, they're so goal oriented and like, I want to be good, I want to be the best and I want to be Olympian. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's enjoy it. Like,
00:54:09
Speaker
This is part of it like if you just if you don't enjoy each day you're gonna like get to the Olympics and be like why did I wish it so to happen so fast, you know and You aren't you are gonna make mistakes if you're playing 14 minutes a game, you're gonna make a mistake So how do you work with your mind? After you make a mistake to move on and just move forward because if you dwell in it, you're gonna make another mistake so it's just like you know having that conversation with one player and then um another one it's like hey you're gonna be just fine on this team like you will go to the olympics if you're a good teammate like you've got the skill you've got the coach wants to invest in you she's not gonna get rid of you but if you're a teammate you're not gonna make it far
00:55:02
Speaker
No. Yeah. If, if your strength and speed is here, but somebody's just bringing all the elevation, the team up, like it's a no brainer. If you take the better team head over the jerk, if they're equal. Yep. And it's like, that's, that's one conversation I've had. And, um,
00:55:25
Speaker
I don't know. and just like We've instilled a really good culture where I think these girls do feel like the coach is investing in them and they're not going to get fired in ah tomorrow. right so it's like i think they can I'm just trying to like you know make sure they know that. it's like you She's investing in you. Just try to enjoy it. and um Another story I like to say is like Smith Cedric who one who scored the game-winning try for our bronze medal match in Paris.
00:56:00
Speaker
a year ah A year before that try, she wasn't playing a lot of minutes. you know She was on the bench. She was you know asking herself, what what am I doing here? like i'm I'm not valued. I'm not playing. And and then she just kept with it. you know just like near the Near the Olympics, she was like one of the fastest on the team, strongest on the team. And she just kept going, kept grinding. And and now she's one of the biggest reasons why we have a bronze medal.
00:56:29
Speaker
Yeah. So her, her moment, she was ready. her mom Yeah. And that's the other thing. It's like, you don't need to play every single minute of every game to have an impact. No, yeah, that's, that's awesome. And now everybody's got that, that story to tell. So looking forward for yourself, what are your future plans, both with rugby and life?
Future Plans and Fun Anecdotes
00:56:53
Speaker
Yeah. Um,
00:56:56
Speaker
I mean, if I could do this forever, I would. It's it's a dream job. um And so about two, two and a half years ago, I asked myself, what's planned what's what's the next plan, Nicole? And my parents, who have always been you know such a help in my in my life and my career, um were like, what about firefighting?
00:57:22
Speaker
And I was like, what about firefighting? they like it's You're going from one team to another where you train together, you know eat together. um work together obviously and I was like, that sounds like the best like transition ever. And I'm so excited to be a part of you know ah fire like the fire service. um Shout out to Lou for you know connecting me with people in San Diego. And shout out to her because she's actually made me a better rugby player because I've been able to have confidence when
00:58:00
Speaker
I'm done playing, that I'll have a job. And I think that's a big concern for a lot of us on the Olympic team because we're so heavily focused on our you know our sport in front of us and what the next tournament is, what the next big event is, that we don't really put a lot of you know effort or time, we don't have a lot of time to put into what that next career is. And I've had a lot of teammates who are three time Olympians and they don't have a job after <unk>mpics the Olympics. And like she's allowed me to kind of just like take a deep breath and be like, okay, let's enjoy these last few years of my professional rugby career, knowing that I'll have a stable job at the end of it, you know. And so, um,
00:58:46
Speaker
So I've, uh, I think what I want to do in a perfect world is play professionally in a couple of countries. Um, there's opportunity in Japan, there's opportunity in Australia. And then once I'm totally done with that and like, I don't want to put on those cleats, I'm going to jump into the fire service. Sweet. Any coaching in your future? Everyone asks that and I, and I believe, yes, there will be lots of coaching and I want to give back to If it's in the Flathead Valley, um, where I grew up or if it's at a, you know, a college, I just, I want to give back in and grow the sport even more. Yeah. Similar to lacrosse rugby is this fringe sports and opportunity for, for men and women. And the only thing holding these back are are great coaches. hu Yeah. I feel it's important. I call it giving back to the game to where.
00:59:45
Speaker
Yeah, lacrosse has given me so much. So just coaching, you know, pennies for my time, but still just find a passion and a love for it. Uh, yeah. That that's great. I final question here. You took on. Nelson Kelsey in a little arm wrestling, like what's the backstory. And I got reason to believe he cheated you out of a freaking strong finish there.
01:00:13
Speaker
He did cheat me out. He did. He was a cheater and he knows it. and But, you know, that's a part of, that was a part of the reserve that I, you know, so we are at the Olympics, day one of a three tournament.
01:00:29
Speaker
um you know, experience, and after the first game, my coach and my manager goes, hey, you're going to go to a box. You and Chris Thomas, who was the other reserve, you're going to go to a box and talk to a donor. I was like, what donor?
01:00:47
Speaker
And they're like, Jason Kelsey and his wife. And I was like, okay. So we get to this box at Stade de France in Paris and he is having a good time. Right away, I was like, sweet. This will be easy. So.
01:01:02
Speaker
we yeah We give him our signed jersey and say, thank you. you know We hope you support us in the future. Blah, blah, blah. And then I don't know what came of me, but I was like, and do you want to arm wrestle? And he's like, he was so into it. He's like, let's go. And we got like we ran inside, like put ourselves on this table, and just went after it. And that video went viral.
01:01:27
Speaker
um but My, to be honest, my elbow was kind of sore for like a week straight after that. Yeah, you're taking on an all pro center there. The idea of the rematch though, I think you got it next time. Yep, I think we need a rematch. So one day, one day, soon, hopefully. Well, yeah, Nicole, I learned a lot. i I'm going to steal some of your one liners here super strengths. I love that. And then Yeah. Just the, the energy one, one drill that, that I like for the the high school level and teaching body language. And it's funny, you had the nickname, the clapper in there. So this is, this is called the motivation drill.
01:02:13
Speaker
guys line up 10 yards apart and then you're just sprinting back and forth 10 yards. It's maybe a group of eight to 10. So I'm sprinting 10 yards. I get some deceleration. So there's some training purpose in there, but then if I'm not sprinting, I'm cheering on my teammate by their name.
01:02:30
Speaker
So now everybody's used to, seniors are talking to freshmen, they're learning their names, they're communicating. But then I say, I don't give them a time. I just start the clock on my watch and at two minutes, three minutes, you start to see the energy go. And the reason I like it, I'm training them how to respond. So now I can teach them, all right, motivation drill, let's get louder and they get a sense and they get a feel for that sideline energy that you were talking about. So then.
01:02:57
Speaker
Now come game time, energy's not going. I just looked at this guideline. The guys that aren't playing say motivation drill. And all of a sudden they know what to do. And yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Little, little things like that that I value.
01:03:15
Speaker
ah conversations like this. so I'm learning as as as much as anybody else here, being a sponge. so i'm I'm grateful for your time. I'm i'm grateful for Lou to connecting us. and I appreciate you. I'll aim to get get some motivation, some energy to send it your way, hopefully going into this next round. and Good luck in your conditioning test and running those plebes into the ground.
01:03:42
Speaker
Hell yeah. Thank you so much. No, this was great. And thank you for your time. All right. Thank you for another episode of the captain's coaches podcast by scene. All right. see Thank you for tuning into another episode of the captains and coaches podcast. If you like what you heard here today, be sure to like, subscribe, rate, review the show, and look forward to new episodes every Wednesday. If you enjoyed Nicole's journey, just wait to see what she has in store preparing for the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles. Talk about a home game, high likelihood. I will be there. If you are a leader looking for preparation physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. I think that's a word. Then head to captainsandcoaches.com to find a training program that's right for you. Thanks again for tuning in and helping us raise the game.