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No Self, All Love: A Conversation with Elena Brower
340 Plays1 month ago
In this deeply intimate episode of The Choice to Grow, Scott sits down with beloved teacher, author, and artist Elena Brower. Together they explore the rich terrain of grief as an expression of love, the transformative power of daily practice, and what it means to live — and die — with Presence. From the alchemy of long meditations facing the wall in silent Zen practice to serving tea during a final goodbye, Elena opens her heart and offers fierce, unflinching grace. This is a conversation about what really matters — and how to stay close to it.
Elena Brower – Teacher, Author, Artist
Mother, mentor, poet, artist, volunteer, bestselling author and host of the Practice You Podcast, Elena Brower graduated Cornell University in 1992, designed textiles and apparel for almost a decade before shifting her focus to yoga, meditation, writing and art. Teaching asana since 1999, studying and practicing Zen meditation since 2020, she received the Buddhist Precepts from Roshi Joan Halifax at Upaya Zen Center in 2023. Now a candidate for Buddhist Chaplaincy, Elena offers her time in hospice and penitentiary settings. Her bestselling journals and books explore stages of life and listening. Her next book, Hold Nothing, will be published by Shambhala Publications in late 2025.
Elena's Perceptive Parenting audio course is a key resource for parents; her signature course Simplify serves hundreds in reimagining priorities in order to experience more meaning every day, and she's also the founder of free global podcast The Matter of Menopause. Her weekly live yoga practices and meditations are featured on Glo; she offers retreats and workshops a few times a year, and her spoken word poetry can be heard on Above & Beyond's Flow State albums, for which she's received an RIAA-certified Gold Record for her writing on "Don't Leave." Elena works to elevate bright futures for girls, women and children through her support for Girls on Fire Leaders, On The Inside and Free Food Kitchen.
Scott Schwenk - Master Coach, Spiritual Teacher, Culture Architect
Scott’s teachings, courses and private mentoring guide leaders, seekers and creatives to explore their deepest selves in service of thriving on all levels of being, both individually and relationally.
Host and creator of the podcast The Choice To Grow, Scott is known for his hugely popular courses and workshops with OneCommune.com, Younity.com, Wanderlust Festivals, and Unplug Meditation, Scott has been catalyzing the inner evolution of others for decades: helping them to grow, transform obstacles into opportunities, and find Love within.
Scott spent several years living and studying in a meditation monastery which introduced him to the core body of Tantric meditation traditions which continue to flow through each of his teachings. Scott continues to study and teach from two key Tantric lineage streams.
Apprenticeships in leadership development, meditation and philosophy training, shadow work/shadow resolution and spiritual awakening are all part of Scott’s development into the thought-leader that he is today. He continues to refine his offerings studying and practicing with key innovators at the leading edges of human development.
Scott’s teachings support the entire person to not only progressively recognize, stabilize and embody our inextricable oneness with the source of creation (Waking Up), but also to resolve the wounds of the past (Cleaning Up), continually expand our capacities for wider and more inclusive perspectives on any moment (Growing Up) and creatively and joyfully participate and collaborate with all of life as a loving thriving human being (Showing Up).
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to The Choice to Grow. I'm Scott Schwenk. Through these dialogues, we'll explore fresh perspectives and discover practical tools for navigating a thriving life that adds value wherever we are.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'll introduce you to innovators and creators from across our world who embody what it means to cultivate growing as a way of life. Let's prepare together.
00:00:24
Speaker
Take a deep breath in.
00:00:28
Speaker
Hold breath briefly as you soften your shoulders and soften the soles of your feet and palms of your hands. Then exhale like you're releasing tension and setting down a heavy burden from every cell.
00:00:41
Speaker
Ah. Now let's dive in.
Alaina Brower's Diverse Roles and Projects
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody, to The Choice to Grow. I am over the moon, I've been counting the sleeps, and I'm so delighted to share with you my friend, sister, Alaina Brower, and I want to tell you a little bit about her background.
00:01:03
Speaker
So she's a mom. She's definitely a mentor, a wildly inspired poet, artist, volunteer, a bestselling author and host of the Practice You podcast. Alaina graduated from Cornell in 1992, designed textiles and apparel for almost a decade before shifting her focus to yoga, meditation, writing and art.
00:01:25
Speaker
teaching asana since 1999 studying and practicing zen meditation since 2020 she received the buddhist precepts from roshi joan halifax at upaya zen center in 2023 now candidate for buddhist chaplaincy lena is offering her time in hospice and penitentiary settings her best-selling journals and books explore stages of life and listening her next book Ooh, this is a gem.
00:01:54
Speaker
I've seen it. Hold Nothing is being published by Shambhala Publications in late 2025. Elena's Perceptive Parenting audio course is a key resource for parents. Her signature course, Simplify, serves hundreds in reimagining priorities in order to experience more meaning every day. And she's also the founder of free global podcast, The Matter of Menopause.
00:02:22
Speaker
Her weekly live yoga practices and meditations are featured on GLOW, GLOW.com that is. She offers retreats and workshops a few times a year, and her spoken word poetry can be heard on Above and Beyond's Flowstate albums, for which she's received an RIAA certified gold record. That's crazy. For her writing, Don't Leave.
00:02:42
Speaker
Elena works to elevate her bright futures for girls, women, and children through her support for Girls on Fire leaders on the inside and Free Food Kitchen. So I'm just going to say a little bit because we're both so excited. But this woman is one of my favorite humans on the planet.
00:02:57
Speaker
We were connected years ago by our friend or mutual friend Alejandro Jünger when Elena was opening Vera Yoga in Soho right next to Dina DeLuca and around the corner from Equinox.
00:03:10
Speaker
and would bring me in there to lead breathwork rather than her shavasana when I would come to town at the end of classes. And we just got on like a house on fire over email, over email, way back before there were much to do with cell phones or any of that business. So without further ado, Elena.
Zen Center Experience and Life as an Editing Process
00:03:32
Speaker
So happy to be here with you. What a treat. I'm pouring tea. And I'm so happy to just sink in with you right now. Yeah.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yes. ah you're fresh from an experience at your zen center i am fresh from an experience which is probably a daily i could say you're fresh from an experience but what's this most recent happening um for you there just got out of a practice period so that means i was in the sketch in the zen schedule for almost three weeks left a little bit early i had a dear friend who lost her house in the fires there in LA. She came with me, she got a little bit sick. So I took her home to my house, which is very close to the Zen center and just tended to her.
00:04:22
Speaker
The options were to send her to the you know ER r without me or to just go home with her. That's what I did. But we had about two and a half, almost three weeks there, five to seven hours a day of sitting facing the wall.
00:04:38
Speaker
It was my fourth or fifth practice period, I think, over the last five years. And it was, as always, very helpful to see the habit patterns and energy in my mind to befriend myself a little more, certainly and kindly.
00:05:06
Speaker
for those who have sat in your classes and i know many of them over the years so it could sound surprising for some who don't know you well on a personal level to hear you say working at befriend or showing up at more of the befriending of your mind and like well she seemed like she had that in spades 20 years ago and this is a nuance about choosing to grow that i'm curious what you might say about
00:05:37
Speaker
You know, I think all of us have these sort of phases and you could say, you know, chapter, turn the page onion, peel the layer. um I feel like my entire life is sort of an editing pro pro process and project where every time I go and sit there, i come up with some other thing that I can leave behind.
00:06:02
Speaker
whether it's an idea or an opinion or, um, some sort of righteousness.
00:06:11
Speaker
And it is similar to peeling away the layers of an onion, but it's like literally there is no onion left when this project is done. I'm disappearing and preparing for my death.
00:06:26
Speaker
And I'm only 54, but that's the, that's the project.
00:06:32
Speaker
It's, almost so on the nose, it makes me want to burst out into laughter. There's a question I ask every guest, usually not until the very end.
Tassajara and Suzuki Roshi's Teachings
00:06:40
Speaker
And it's based on my favorite quote from Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, who opened the Zen Center of San Francisco in the 1960s.
00:06:49
Speaker
You know, that's the lineage in which I find myself. Okay, then. Yeah, I'm feeling that through my whole body. Yes, I'm goingnna bem going to going to the Sahara in June in a few and few Oh, I visited the outside of it.
00:07:03
Speaker
um I believe I was there, unless I'm confusing it. There's a Zen monastery on Sausalito at the top of the mound. That's not, is it? I think Tassajara is, um I'm not super familiar with Northern California, but Tassajara is south of San Francisco, really like down a four mile dirt road.
00:07:26
Speaker
And he built it with a few students back in the seventies.
00:07:32
Speaker
Then it's basically the first American Zen monastery and certainly the first that allowed women and men to practice together, families to practice together.
00:07:44
Speaker
It's got a storied history and ah just can't wait to be there and just feel it and sit in the Zendo, see where he was giving talks.
00:07:54
Speaker
The thing that comes to my colorful imagination most and first when I hear the name Tassajara is their cookbook. Of course, that's like how their food is epic. Ed Brown, very the author of the ah the cookbook, whose family and friends with so many of the teachers that I love from this lineage, he basically gave all of the proceeds from the cookbook to help build and sustain Tassajara.
00:08:23
Speaker
So it's a very rich, um very rich story. I'm in the middle of reading. finished Crooked Cucumber, which is about Shonri Suzuki.
00:08:34
Speaker
Still reading it. So good. I had to ration it during the practice period when I was allowed to read. And then... um
00:08:45
Speaker
shoes outside the door by Michael Downing is a scandal and also very helpful to fill out all the blank spaces in the context that is Zen center and Tassajara. And because it's the lineage from which I come, um, one of Suzuki's direct students, Catherine Dennis was my teacher's teacher's teacher.
00:09:12
Speaker
um And her writing just blows my mind. She was also a yoga teacher and also an artist. So very, very connected to her and keep her writing close.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
So Roshi's quote. Thank you. Sorry for that. That I first heard, not at all. The first heard from Adyashanti many, many years ago in Palo Alto at a gathering, a satsang with him, my first.
00:09:43
Speaker
And he's brought this out many times, this particular quote. Suzuki Roshi says, death is certain, the time is not. What is the most important thing?
00:09:56
Speaker
And I ask every guest that.
00:10:01
Speaker
What a great question. Wow. You know what else he said? And then I'll answer. Somebody came close to him when one of his very close students came close to him. You'll read this.
00:10:15
Speaker
Just as he was about to die within a few days of his death. He was way too young. when he died, but he got really bad liver, some kind of very obscure liver cancer.
00:10:28
Speaker
And he had a very hard life. And I think there was some anger and some frustration at the way his life went personally, not professionally. And the student was really upset in some way express that.
00:10:45
Speaker
And Suzuki Roshi said, do not be sad for me. I know who I am. paraphrasing, but it was something like that. It really touched me. It took my breath away. had to stop for a while and cry.
00:11:11
Speaker
Isn't that everything that we just know who we are so that we're not afraid to die? yeah There's nothing else we can take with us. My friend who lost her whole house had like collections of all this fancy everything, shoes, clothes, Japanese ceramics and teaware. She realized few days into the practice period that um she was there to get in touch with the fact that she bought all those things and invested in all that beauty.
00:11:40
Speaker
because she couldn't grasp the beauty and the worth in her own being. And she started to feel that while she was sitting facing the wall and realized why the fire had happened to her.
00:11:56
Speaker
For her, whatever you want to say. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty epic. And those of you who are new to listening to my voice or Alina's voice,
00:12:08
Speaker
Maybe you picked this up from our voices. I feel inclined to say this to you as a listener. If you have gone through some big loss of people or things or money, we're not minimizing the experience of loss. In fact, both Alina and I have lost our mothers not far apart in years and other people we care deeply about and experiences of life and grieved and grieved with each other and grieved for each other.
00:12:35
Speaker
So when we're saying, a very, very exalted perspective of recognizing the fire happened for me in this way, it is not to minimize the process of actually going through grieving and recognizing the meaning we invested in various things that are now showing their temporary nature to us.
00:12:57
Speaker
Yeah. It's a really good point.
00:13:04
Speaker
I just don't even, I don't have a better words for it. Yeah. These dialogues are something that I have been called to for years.
00:13:18
Speaker
And it took finding out knowing more of who and what I am to say yes,
Buddhist Precepts and the Three Refuges
00:13:26
Speaker
and do it.
00:13:28
Speaker
But the inspiration of being able to sit with people who are capable of listening beyond the known without dismissing the known and together allow something to come forward through dialogue and I love the definition I heard from David Bohm which is to discover together
00:13:52
Speaker
there was a during the practice period somebody mentioned this during one of our study sessions when I so i have a ruckasu that I sewed I took the precepts a few years ago and what is a ruckasu for those who don't know sure ruckasu is It's a bib-esque looking um piece of fabric that's actually many pieces of fabric hand-sewn together that represents the robes of the Buddha.
00:14:19
Speaker
um That I asked. The robes of liberation. And we sew one over the course of a couple of years while preparing to take the Buddhist precepts, a series of vows that one takes together.
00:14:32
Speaker
to keep oneself organized, the boundaries that afford us a greater freedom, if you will. And um each stitch, you're meant to take refuge in the Buddha, of the Dharma, and the Sangha.
00:14:45
Speaker
I take refuge in the Buddha, of the Dharma, and the Sangha. And one of my friends, i don't know how we got onto the topic, but she said, oh, there was this really awesome um translation, reinterpretation of those three refuges, the three jewels.
00:15:00
Speaker
I take refuge in the Buddha, the Buddha of my own nature. i take refuge in the Sangha. We wake up together. and i take refuge in the Dharma. Everything teaches us.
00:15:11
Speaker
I take refuge in the Sangha. We wake up together. Right? Just changes the whole thing. it's like, yeah. All of it. Changes the whole thing. going to say it again. I take refuge in the Buddha, the Buddha of my own nature.
00:15:26
Speaker
and take refuge it in the Dharma. Everything teaches us. I take refuge in the Sangha. We wake up together.
00:15:38
Speaker
Mm.
00:15:41
Speaker
Certainly been true for you and me for many years now, two decades. Yeah. To varying degrees of recognition of what's happening while it was happening or in retrospect. word Or lack of thereof. Or lack of. Yeah. Somebody else has to point it out. I mean, yeah i think it's kind of smartly designed that many of the people I get to privilege to interact with don't necessarily recognize, they may know themselves at a really foundational level, but they don't necessarily recognize the impact theirre their existence or consciousness is having on others through them until others tell them.
00:16:14
Speaker
And it seems to be somewhat widespread. There's a basic understanding, but the depth and breadth and width of that impact, and and I think that's so that we don't think it's us individually.
00:16:32
Speaker
Because it never is. Right? Oh, let's go there. I want to touch something that really tickles my heart when I was knowing we were getting closer to this.
00:16:43
Speaker
So when I met you, you were one of the most integrated Anusara yoga teachers. And not that you were the only one but certified Anusara teachers, if they walked near my mat,
00:17:02
Speaker
everyone that I worked with, and you for sure, my body would spontaneously and noticeably find greater alignment without being told anything or touched. Well, that speaks to your studentship.
00:17:15
Speaker
Not to us. I mean, you can say anything you like and assume anything, but I think that speaks to who you are and how you integrate the teachings less to your teachers.
00:17:29
Speaker
So you start you were in you and you had a whole life before on you. So your study, I didn't realize till I read your bio that you were designing textiles. I didn't know until I started seeing your paintings during quarantine that you were a very trained and wonderful painter. But my point I want to get to is there's a there's a great teacher and I hope to have him on here sometime, A.H. Almas.
00:17:52
Speaker
And i've been listening to some of his work, the diamond approach. And he He speaks about having his first realization was a non-dual realization. Then about every two years, without expecting it, and thinking he'd already completed what there was to complete, he'd have another realization that was different.
00:18:08
Speaker
So he had non-dual realizations, he had dualistic realizations. He had ones that were both and ones that were neither, and ones that couldn't be spoken.
00:18:18
Speaker
And he articulates, I think it's in runaway realization,
00:18:24
Speaker
for many, and you can correct this for me, The end of the Zen path is no self and the recognition of emptiness and clear light. yeah The Sufis, it's unity and love.
Unity of No Self and Zen Meditation
00:18:35
Speaker
So from his perspective and mine as well, everybody's right and all realizations do not lead to the same place.
00:18:46
Speaker
Well, unity is no self.
00:18:52
Speaker
Having come from, ah basically took the path that the teachings have taken from India, through China, India of Tantra. Right.
00:19:06
Speaker
Daoism, Confucianism touches it, becomes Chan, and then it gets to Japan it becomes Zen. And having started with the Indian teachings from India,
00:19:23
Speaker
i I don't say no to anything. It's all true. um There was a great quote that came across my field yesterday from a book called Being Time. not going to remember it, so I'm going to see if I can find it.
00:19:41
Speaker
I put it on my desktop. There we go. Okay, I'll pull it up. um Being Timed by Shinshu Roberts. It's from, do basically it's an interpretation of a part of Dogen's show, Genzo.
00:19:56
Speaker
Big body of work. Engaging with an open mind is inclusive. skillful response. When we are totally engaged with each moment, we stop pitting ourselves against something we perceive as outside and in need of control.
00:20:13
Speaker
This is the intimacy of no self.
00:20:17
Speaker
Engaging with an open mind is inclusive, comma, skillful response. When we are totally engaged with each moment, we stop pitting ourselves against something we perceive as outside and in need of control This is the intimacy of no self.
00:20:34
Speaker
So it's really the teachings of Dogen from the 1200s. He was alive from 1200 1253 or so. And that no self, you know, and even just this mere little tiny humble training facing the wall for many hours gives me a little taste, but I don't think I'll get there until I'm dying if I'm lucky.
00:21:01
Speaker
sort of I sort of have this sense of all the boundaries are disappearing the periphery of my body is disappearing i can sort of feel where the clothing is touching my body in certain moments and then the ins like I disappear from inside of these garments
00:21:19
Speaker
it's such an intimacy I'm no longer here I have no agenda and That's the sort of, don't know, I remember walking around Guru Mahasashram in South Fallsburg and feeling this quality of like just so much love.
00:21:38
Speaker
It's the same feeling that I'm getting facing the wall, although it's a little more, you know, collected, let's say um But it's no different. It's not a different feeling.
00:21:54
Speaker
Call it whatever you want. that yeah that
00:22:00
Speaker
having participated in the work of donny epstein since i was 22 the best ah through network spinal it's called now six doctors all over the country um and worked in with him directly in some of his premier work he and my main doctor have hammered me when i've been asked and said i can't find a self and I remember being at the microphone with Donnie at a program in the fall and he said you have unbound energy in spades
00:22:36
Speaker
why have a body if you're not going to bind it to something like you're not going to bind your energy to something so there's something I've been like noodling around one of Sally Kempton's good friends spoke prolifically about the unique self There's a sense I have that there's something that endures that's not historical and that's unique like a snowflake but has no ownership.
00:23:05
Speaker
What's your experience so far? It's kind of as I described. just don't... said hey Yeah, i I gave birth to a kid. He's awesome.
00:23:20
Speaker
feel like that's done. going into his second year of school, by the way. six And yet you go to his wedding. Let's say he's going to have a wedding. Most likely. To somebody. right Most likely. He's go to have a wedding. And you're going to go. And then feelings arise.
00:23:35
Speaker
Right. Or God forbid you
00:23:41
Speaker
your partner goes before you go. And you're lucid and you're with it. There's going to be feelings. Something is feelings. And it's not just the body, I don't have the sense.
00:23:53
Speaker
No, it's it's it most of what we most of what I feel anyway, according to my findings facing the wall. It's kind of habit. I'm supposed to feel like that I'm supposed to be sad right now. I'm supposed to be angry right now. I'm supposed to be exasperated, whatever it is.
00:24:12
Speaker
Like, the as I let go of all of these assumptions about how I should feel technically, based on history and tradition in my society and my upbringing, my skin and so forth.
00:24:25
Speaker
yeah I suddenly am just like, oh, nothing actually is determining anything. What if I just let go of that that yeah and that?
00:24:36
Speaker
Of course, if I'm standing at my kid's wedding and I've got a dress for it and I'm psyched to see my child happy, like that's wonderful. Yeah. Also that I think the the daily morning practice, I sit at 7 a.m.
00:24:50
Speaker
and let it all go so I can start my day with a fresh perspective. Do you sense there's something that's enduring and unique while somehow being one with everything?
00:25:08
Speaker
And it's not a historical personality. You don't? Okay. No. Okay. That's the thing I'm really trying to get away from, actually. Legacy, enduring, unique, special, like all of those things.
00:25:22
Speaker
Oh, I could just, I don't want to be judgmental or spend any time berating, chastising myself, but that has been historically my problem.
00:25:38
Speaker
Huh. Yeah. if i If there were to be a problem, Like just stop all of that nonsense and just do what is needed.
00:25:50
Speaker
My practice is for the benefit of all beings. So how am I doing what is needed? And all of the service that I'm doing, that's the best I can do right now.
00:26:02
Speaker
What I'm hearing, what seems like I'm hearing is There is us an expression that's unique, but it doesn't need to reflect on itself. It doesn't need to think about itself. It doesn't need to name itself.
00:26:14
Speaker
yeah So while it may be enduring and somewhat like a snowflake, it doesn't need an identity of any sort. So it can actually move in all directions with nimbleness.
00:26:27
Speaker
The way whichever way that the biosphere is unfolding. Yes.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah. Now your teacher comes from a long tradition of, or tradition, experience maybe, of activism.
Activism with Roshi Joan Halifax and Skillful Ferocity
00:26:42
Speaker
So Roshi Joan Halifax is one of my teachers. She's the the teacher from whom I took the precepts, received the precepts.
00:26:50
Speaker
She is a force on this planet. She has sat for thousands of hours with the dying, with the folks on death row. She has served in the most remote mountains of the Himalayas in Nepal and brought in medical care, a whole medical team. Brought to the earthquakes. Decades.
00:27:13
Speaker
Decades she's been doing this. Yeah. She founded UPI Zen Center.
00:27:20
Speaker
And she is a force. And it's interesting. She does often teach, you know, come here, do the practice, stop making things, stop working, stop doing anything.
00:27:31
Speaker
And yet it's hard for her to do that very thing. We always teach. But we most need to learn the the the teacher with whom I am studying closely. Her name is Nanette Overly.
00:27:42
Speaker
Her dharma name is Manchin Tenen. but Monshin on the Upaya podcast and her Dharma talks are well worth your time.
00:27:53
Speaker
Monshin Nanette Oberle and her teacher is Eugene Bush. His teacher is Catherine Thanos, who I was, um, show you this human.
00:28:09
Speaker
Yeah. I'm studying a lot. She has also a book of her talks out. i don't know if you can Grass writing. Grass writing. This you can only get through san Santa Cruz Zen Center.
00:28:20
Speaker
Anyway, the my the sort of blend of teachers who have influenced me in this realm of Zen Buddhism are a combination of that activism of which you speak and this...
00:28:39
Speaker
artistic, embodied, householder, Zen, that really matters to me. And it has, it has altered the way I look, listen, am the world with my family, with the work that I'm doing, whether it's creative or service work, writing,
00:29:07
Speaker
I just, I'm so thankful for the teachings because it's really helped me to see I am not actually here. the The sort of bodhisattva energy of all of this is what can I do to benefit all beings?
00:29:24
Speaker
How does what I'm doing serve? And that's kind of the driving force behind my work now.
00:29:36
Speaker
One of the many things that was presenting as I was contemplating last night, our conversation was looking at ferocity. I don't know if I saw that word freshly in your a forthcoming book, Holding Nothing, but ferocity as opposed to unprocessed aggression or hostility issues that can be masquerading as, yes, I'm standing up for something and I'm i protesting this or I'm an activist for this, but it's I'm curious about, i'm interested in the ferocity that's not personal and therefore skillful.
00:30:14
Speaker
Like it's not coming from my personal, I don't like this and I like that. These are my people, those are not my people. it's not coming from taking sides. It's coming from recognition ah what is necessary in the moment.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah. An unmitigated Unprescribed appropriate response is how Roshi Joan contextualizes it.
00:30:45
Speaker
That's it. That's the teaching of a lifetime, according to one of the sort of koans in Zen. What is the teaching you of a lifetime? An appropriate response.
00:30:57
Speaker
Oh, y'all, I encourage you to re-listen to this multiple times, this conversation, because there's so much subtlety here. i will be re-listening, and I cannot cannot encourage you enough to get Roshi Jones' book, Standing at the Edge.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, that was my next suggestion. And also, A Fruitful Darkness is a really great, one of my favorite books. If I had to bring five books with me to a remote situation, it would be that.
00:31:25
Speaker
Fruitful darkness. A fruitful darkness has to do with her travels when she was in the 40s and fifty s Really epic stories. She honors every person in such a true, full way.
00:31:42
Speaker
Standing at the edge is important, as you said, because it brings us into the five edge states that she identifies. Among them, respect, empathy, respect,
00:31:55
Speaker
and how you get altruism and how you can go over the edge into pathological versions of all of these wonderful virtues. I interviewed her for my podcast too. It's actually a worthwhile listen short.
00:32:09
Speaker
Excellent. I would love to see her here at some point, in particular, the thing that I've been chewing on since that book came out and we were reading I don't know, close to simultaneously during COVID.
Compassion, Empathy, and Fatigue
00:32:22
Speaker
was the polarities of or seeming possible polarities of compassion and empathy. And I've brought it out and shared it in many different ways. um My best recollection or at least how I experience it currently is empathy shows me why to care.
00:32:40
Speaker
Right. And the compassion shows me how. Yeah, that's cool. i have a couple of perspectives. um Number one I also want to bring in Judith Lassiter. Judith Hansel Lassiter is a teacher of mine too.
00:32:58
Speaker
She, although is one of the best yoga teachers mechanically and emotionally of our whole time, she also teaches NVC, nonviolent communication. And I have had the privilege of teaching with her sort of let's say just being her intern while she presents the course and doing the tech.
00:33:18
Speaker
And i love doing that job. And she teaches that empathy is understanding independent of agreement.
00:33:32
Speaker
Wow. I've never heard that. I know. Wow. so good. Cause you know, i understand why are current,
00:33:44
Speaker
political leader is the way that he is because of his upbringing. i actually understand it. I don't agree. So I can have empathy for that human. ah As it is going, um, compassion back to Roshi, Joan Halifax is made of all these non-compassion elements she teaches.
00:34:08
Speaker
like care and respect and dignity and integrity. And, um, yes, empathy leads to compassion. Sometimes compassion leads to empathy.
00:34:21
Speaker
It's, it's hard to say which came first in my understanding, but I'm still pulling these things apart and studying them.
00:34:32
Speaker
Um, Same. yeah What I walked away with was that the pieces about ending up over empathizing and ending up in what she calls empathic distress.
00:34:44
Speaker
Yes. And then not being able to be helpful, that there's no such thing as compassion fatigue, but there's empathic distress. Like I have mirror neurons from head to toe in my body that can pick up what a plant, an animal or another human is feeling.
00:34:56
Speaker
That's right. If I tune to it too much, I'm useless to them. And I'm actually becoming a suck of energy. Whereas if I can touch And I think it's something I'll forever be exploring.
00:35:08
Speaker
And a student of real compassion for me is not personal. It's not my compassion. It's compassion. And until I've emptied out enough of my attachment to my historical sense of self, that's just an idea I have about compassion.
00:35:25
Speaker
That's well said.
00:35:34
Speaker
Can improve upon that compassion is constantly present. Are we tuning in or not?
00:35:43
Speaker
It's very good. Thank you for that.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah. I'm very present with that.
00:35:58
Speaker
One from one frame, all that's happening here is just tea.
00:36:04
Speaker
Just tea.
00:36:14
Speaker
It's quite tasty. I wish you were here. I almost can smell it and taste it.
00:36:21
Speaker
You can taste little tiny rose buds and little tangerine peels. And then the white tea as well. The little wild roses are really putting it right over the edge here. And it's,
00:36:32
Speaker
It's afternoon here, so I wouldn't normally drink any other kind of tea at this hour. This is perfect.
00:36:45
Speaker
What a treat to be together.
00:36:49
Speaker
So the question, death is certain, the time is not.
Love, Prosperity, and Energetic Exchange
00:36:55
Speaker
What is the most important thing? Yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker
I think love.
00:37:04
Speaker
No matter what arena of my life I sort of scan, when you asked me that question earlier, just came up with the capital L, love.
00:37:13
Speaker
Whether it has to do with writing, family, friendships, painting, practice, love.
00:37:24
Speaker
Love of self, love of other, love of earth feel like there's a quote from Muji like this. There's a song or something where are they he's in the background.
00:37:38
Speaker
I love Muji so much too. Yeah, that's my final answer. What is prosperity?
00:37:49
Speaker
That's a great question. Wow. I'm learning that prosperity is actually a commitment to practice.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah. The minute I lose touch with my practice, I lose touch with that concept. Prosperity, I'm not talking about like material, even a little bit.
00:38:15
Speaker
It's really, gosh, when I upkeep my practice, which I have now for a few years, just 7 a.m. Come on.
00:38:26
Speaker
That's it. Come rain or shine. Rain or shine. Oh. I feel prosperous. feel prosperous in my relationship with James. We're going on almost 11, 12 years.
00:38:37
Speaker
Wow. I know. He is getting more delicious by the day, like mentally, emotionally, ah so holistically growing.
00:38:49
Speaker
So happy for him and also happy for me. um yeah yeah it's really everybody's winning it's and he gets you to reflect it back to him in case he forgets it could be that he also has a way of reflecting back to me too i just need to give credit where credit is of course he does how else could somebody be with you if they didn't have some prowess yes he's so cool so nice so kind um but yeah i i lose touch with with all of the forms of prosperity, creativity, relationally, creatively, relationally, in practice.
00:39:30
Speaker
if i don't If I don't practice, if I don't really keep up with it, I can feel
00:39:38
Speaker
Now, one of my very dearest friends a couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago was having lunch, and I had just come from an extended practice. um I had just taught and so I was in an extended practice to metabolize the experience after teaching.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yes. um
00:39:56
Speaker
I'll just say this for the listener. When people give Initiation for sure. Empowerment is definitely. Energetic practices or advice, there's an energy exchange. Karma is exchanged from this particular view.
00:40:11
Speaker
And somebody's got to metabolize it. It manifests differently in different teachers. So I've been taught and I trust it to just sit down, practice.
00:40:23
Speaker
And my friend said to me, i didn't give him all that context, just said, i've just come from a long practice. And he said, you know, people talk about practice, practice, practice. I think it's really important to do practice and then go out and live your life.
00:40:36
Speaker
And I said, i totally hear that. And I said, I don't know that I've communicated what I mean when I say I'm doing practice.
00:40:47
Speaker
What might you say you mean but Because from over here your life is practice except when you forget like your moments your small moments are practice.
00:40:58
Speaker
Well I don't even forget them just choosing. I got it just fair to say. But what
00:41:09
Speaker
do you mean by practice? Practice is definitely the sitting practice and not doing anything for those 45 to 60 minutes of a day
00:41:22
Speaker
Most days, i'll even if I'm home, I'll do 40 minutes of sitting and then I'll do the liturgy with the Zen center. you know is that Is that repeating mantras? Sort of?
00:41:34
Speaker
What is that? Liturgy is service. There's a kokyo. I mean, there's a doshi. There's kokyo. There's somebody who's the tea the priest who's doing the prostrations on behalf of all of us.
00:41:51
Speaker
There are all of us doing prostrations as well, you know, full down to the floor, raising up the feet of the Buddha.
00:42:02
Speaker
And each day there is a chant. and made juu call and go The Gyo, the Makahanya, the Heart Sutra. These are all it's on the Song of Jewel Mirror Awareness.
00:42:15
Speaker
All of these chants are, directed toward certain remembrances, let's say. And we chant chant, do three more vows on the full moon and the new moon. It's a special different leturgy, really sweet.
00:42:35
Speaker
Retaking of the vows on the new moon and kind of celebrating on the full moon, very celebratory.
00:42:44
Speaker
It's one of those moments where it's about 20 minutes of your life and it completely wipes the slate completely clean and becomes, it becomes a completely new day, new opportunity.
00:42:57
Speaker
um So you could say it's mantras, sure, but they're usually sort of longer form chants. And it's pretty easy to find them if you're listening and you're interested. If you go to upaya.org and just, you know, prowl around and find the liturgy reader.
00:43:15
Speaker
in any one of the programs and everything is most everything is by donation some of the programs are paid um but that's how I started I started with Upaya online during lockdown so I was watching everything and practicing in my living room I remember remember because you were dancing with Sally was still alive at that point and you hadn't yet taken the full step into Upaya that's right and you said well maybe it's time maybe I'll finally start studying with Sally right and Joan You got infected with the Joan Bliss virus.
00:43:48
Speaker
You know what it was? i i felt ah mainly because they're an hour they're a mile away from here, from where I now
Community at Upaya Zen Center and Grief
00:43:55
Speaker
live. And I thought I really want a physical community, a place where I can go.
00:44:01
Speaker
So that became the priority. And I feel great about that. Although I feel like I did miss a little bit of Sally. she cash She's carried through you.
00:44:14
Speaker
and umma and um elizabeth you know rosa of course but i i wish i could have kind of cloned myself and done both the part of me that really feels that in my body is the part of me that would pay a lot of something to have just one more hour with her
00:45:01
Speaker
There's some hint of her voice saying you're having it right now. Yeah, so Sally.
00:45:13
Speaker
So Sally.
00:45:16
Speaker
But that's just it. Like, I guess we'll open that that curio cabinet portion. Your mom, my mom, Sally. many others that we have loved deeply, have been loved deeply by, have been shown more about what love is through, yeah who are not in their bodies.
00:45:36
Speaker
And there's not a day that goes by that I don't feel it.
00:45:42
Speaker
Someone sent me a quote I posted about
00:45:48
Speaker
one of my service assignments this past week was to go into a school where one of the administrators had died, somewhat unexpectedly, not for her family, but for the people in her life professionally. She was quite ill and didn't really share it with the people that she worked with at the school.
00:46:07
Speaker
So the kids who would walk by the main office every day and see her and get hugged by her and get loved by her are very moved. And I got assigned to go into the school as part of this program here in Santa Fe, where we facilitate grief groups for kids and families.
00:46:26
Speaker
And I spent the very first two hours of the school day with this one gal who, 14 black peeling nails, beautiful pools of blue eyes, really messy hair that every single one of my friends would pay money for.
00:46:43
Speaker
um
00:46:46
Speaker
I listened to her for like 30 minutes and all she was talking about was love, just coming back to love, how much she loved her, how much she felt loved by this woman who passed, let's call her Miss A who passed.
00:46:58
Speaker
And she felt so much love. And I wrote about the fact that this revealed to both of us as we made an altar for Miss A, as we wrote a letter of thanks to Miss A who had passed, which was very helpful and soothing for for this gal.
00:47:15
Speaker
um we realized that love was present. So I wrote about this. And this is what's true with both of us too. And also for Sally.
00:47:28
Speaker
And someone sent me this quote from Donna Ashworth. It's called love came first. And it goes like this. It's right on my screen. Cause I just got it. You don't move on after loss, but you must move with.
00:47:43
Speaker
You must shake hands with grief, welcome her in for she lives with you now. Pull her a chair at the table and offer her comfort. She is not the monster you first thought her to be.
00:47:56
Speaker
She is love. Grief is love. And she will walk with you now and stay with you now peacefully if you let her. And on the days when your anger is high, remember why she came, what who she represents.
00:48:09
Speaker
Remember, grief came to you, my friend. because love came first.
00:48:23
Speaker
So beautiful. We dialogued a bit about this when I was on the Practice You podcast. Yes. And my mom had just recently passed. Yeah. I think maybe it was a year or something like this, but I actually realize that I love being with this.
00:48:44
Speaker
I feel so real and alive. Being with grief. That's right. In this way.
00:48:53
Speaker
I would say that there, there are definitely
00:49:01
Speaker
mile stations along the path of grief. that I could become more befriend more like the early place of grief when the shock for somebody is still really fresh the maybe there was a very
00:49:20
Speaker
I don't know what to say like you know something horrible what we could call horrible that precipitated the loss yeah and um
00:49:32
Speaker
yeah I find that grief no matter where where it is in the stations is like it's like truth serum
00:49:45
Speaker
a lot of the book that I wrote prior to hold nothing which is just a collection of poetry just um is about that is about that of the the majesty and horror coexisting simultaneously of grief.
00:50:08
Speaker
And like my mom passed and I was both, you know, quite stoic and ready for it also. Except in the Yoga Glow office, the moment you got on the phone with her, when a few of us were in there and the call came in and you found out for the very first time, I will never forget the freedom of your whale.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:34
Speaker
and But you let happen. You let happen. Gosh, remember that. That was when like it Ryan and Logan, right? Yeah. In that first studio where the office was just, we were we were like a bunch of kids and we slammed in there.
00:50:51
Speaker
We didn't even have a plan. We were just recording. Yeah.
00:50:57
Speaker
Oh, gosh. I had totally put that out of my mind. so nice to remember that. Real and raw indeed. Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:08
Speaker
I mean, I have so many of these moments, you know, like I consider you a colleague and a friend. And yet at the same time, I think this is the best of my friends. I can think of so many moments over 20 some odd years of knowing you here where there's something I picked up that I've never, ever forgotten.
00:51:24
Speaker
And can think of probably at least literally 10 of them right now. I remember sitting in the side room, the extra room you purchased for Virayoga. where you were doing weekly Gurdjieff readings and contemplations and conversations. And I was in there and I remember you reading something that to this day, I tell people what he said.
00:51:44
Speaker
in any moment, there is a theater of selves all presenting as the true i Verify the eyes, which I is speaking in. Is that really you?
Theater of Selves and Positive Developments
00:51:57
Speaker
Gosh. Thank you. Cut to... Me in my 50s, 20 years later, facing the wall, having mean the same exact experience.
00:52:11
Speaker
Who is here? Who is speaking? Who is having this set of opinions?
00:52:24
Speaker
It's very helpful for a human raised in this society where everything is comparative and judgmental.
00:52:33
Speaker
Very good. Thank you for that.
00:52:37
Speaker
My core teacher, my Sri Vidya Guru Parvati often says when she's giving teachings, the mind learns by taking things apart, the heart learns by putting them back together.
00:52:52
Speaker
Mark Nepo, I recently saw this said, I'm paraphrasing, we've become the The sounds of things falling apart are so compelling and loud.
00:53:09
Speaker
But the sound of things coming together is very subtle. You can barely hear it.
00:53:17
Speaker
Sort of relates. I love it so much. I love that. i know. Let me see. I really love that. It's like the the what comes when you said the sound was like the sound of a breath.
00:53:32
Speaker
like even subtler than that. Quote.
00:53:39
Speaker
We become. Just know when everything is. No, that's not it.
00:53:48
Speaker
It's it's something like we we become so attuned when things are falling apart to that very loud sound. But when they come together, it's far more difficult to hear.
00:54:01
Speaker
And to acknowledge Yeah, like that. This actually feels like this is the practice that's been having me and that I'm choosing to attune to in this time. I mean, at this recording, not unlike the last eight years or six years in certain regards or hundreds of years and yeah from a wider view, but recent times, there's a lot happening in the global situation, economically, ecologically,
00:54:28
Speaker
humanity, animals, so on. like There's not ah a domain of life that seems without rupture somewhere that's quite visible and loud. I've taken myself off the news entirely. I got a new iPhone, then it did not install the news, and I have not installed it.
00:54:45
Speaker
When I'm at Equinox, I do not look at the televisions except rare exceptions. I go somewhere else. no I know that for me, there are people whose job it is to stay attuned to the news in certain ways and have maybe hopefully protocols to work with it and sleep at night.
00:55:01
Speaker
That is not my offering. I know who I am. My offering is not to tell people what to think.
00:55:09
Speaker
But to offer possibilities for learning how to think. Yeah. And how to see and how to love as I continue to practice but like putting myself
00:55:23
Speaker
in the din or the clamor of things falling apart I feel like is missing the power of what is even allowing things to fall apart that created the things in the first place and that has never dissipated any of its own energy in building in falling apart or any of those illusions hopefully that wasn't too abstract no uh I fully understand what you're saying and I think it's important that some of us are willing to hold that.
Healthy Relationships and Communication
00:56:01
Speaker
otherwise i mean I wanted to get more real outside of just when somebody gets the idea of hearing about manifesting money. I wanted to get more real for people like interesting like juicy.
00:56:14
Speaker
to to care that it is real that the predominant energy running through my nervous system is shaping my life and the collective right and that that is my our biggest opportunity and where more power is for making change it just might not look like instant coffee in terms of how the outer world is affected in the timeline
00:56:40
Speaker
i like that yeah there isn't For me, there's no need to have a television. I haven't had one in 30 years. We watch really old films on the laptop at night. James and I, he's taught me how to watch films, everything from before basically the early sixties.
00:57:01
Speaker
i think it was when the code changed and it was like the first violent film I think came out.
00:57:12
Speaker
oh I forget it was about as Western. And before that, it's a very different kind of art form. And after that, changed completely.
00:57:25
Speaker
So we watch old Japanese films and Czech New Wave films and French films. Wow. don't need a TV. I also have these visuals all of a sudden that are not movies, but I see you two almost like ballroom dancing throughout the house with the Sonos just, you know, that's so sweet going. That's that sweet.
00:57:44
Speaker
Yeah, we we we really, we've come a long way in our communication. NBC has helped us a lot We're actually now starting to make notes about when we have a successful interaction because someday we want to teach
00:58:01
Speaker
healthy relating. I think we're doing a really good job.
00:58:07
Speaker
I've got an episode coming out of this. Well, I'm dating this episode by saying this, but like next week with a guy, I think you if you haven't come across him, that is his work is one thing is conscious communication and doing repair when there's rupture. He's Australian and I found him stumbled into him.
00:58:29
Speaker
on Instagram and have been following for some time and I listened to his first reel I told him this and I knew right away this guy's living this yeah he's here in the in the in sound of his voice James Gill he goes by the moniker fish since he was a kid because of the last name Gill okay James Fish Gill and um he says he says there we need to remember four things if there's two of us we need to remember four things and then we've got we've got what we need There's your very real longing, your very real pain, and my very real longing and my very real pain. And if I can really make room for all of that, there's room for conscious communication and rupture becomes a glorious opportunity for deeper intimacy.
00:59:17
Speaker
Easier said than done, but yes. And yeah my in our experience, the magic of nonviolent communication and having this understanding independent of agreement starts with ourselves must be installed within ourselves this very very conscious habit consistent habit of giving myself empathy how very human of me to feel this way and then in communication with somebody else it's only mentioning this is hard what i'm feeling
00:59:51
Speaker
I still screw it up all the time. I just did this morning. Instead of, you know, you're being a jerk. You're saying yes, you're doing that. Like that's just not a allowed.
01:00:02
Speaker
It is when I saw you do that, I felt this way. My need for this was not met. I wonder if we could do it over. I wonder if we could do it differently.
01:00:15
Speaker
Make a conscious request. So at no point am I saying what he's doing wrong. yeah just sharing how it feels in my body and you're holding it while you're talking about it you're not just dumping it on somebody else going you hold this that's right because I I'm curious your thoughts about this if you've experienced any of this I have definitely experienced people unwittingly weaponizing non-violent communication I don't know about that, but I can Controlling others.
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, I can see where it could it could go south, I i imagine, as as with any great practice. Right. But what do you think the sweet sauce is that keeps it alive, real, and empathetic?
01:01:02
Speaker
Just being willing to give, according to Judith, if I've learned anything from her, it's you must empathize within, must give yourself empathy first.
01:01:13
Speaker
Then you can start to feel, I can have empathy for myself in this moment of total, whatever it is grief, devastation, frustration.
01:01:25
Speaker
can start to feel this empathy for somebody else. I can start to have an understanding of somebody else's plight. and process. Have you bumped into Daniel P. Brown's work?
01:01:37
Speaker
He was a lineage holder of Tibetan Buddhism, a translator of Mahamudra and Dzogchen texts, and for 35 years, associate professor at Harvard in psychology. So he ran a lot of research studies, meditators.
01:01:51
Speaker
So a number of the teachers that I work with in the integral world in the stages community were his students for a long time. And one of his most important contributions to humanity is this thick tome between him and someone named David Elliott called healing attachment disturbances in adults.
01:02:11
Speaker
And they have proven in their research by healing attachment disturbances, they've been able to heal personality disorders, like borderline narcissism and so on. And these are five things that must be present when there's healthy attachment. And so when you talk about empathizing, I'm now cycle through each of these things and like, as though I'm holding another. So number one is safety and protection.
01:02:36
Speaker
Yeah. Number two is attunement. I see you see me, I know you know me. Three is soothing and comfort. Four is express delight. And five is support and encouragement for my but your best self our best self to come online.
01:02:50
Speaker
Beautiful. So getting in the mirror I mean, I brush my teeth in the mirror. I you know put on skin cream in the mirror There's all these moments and reflective surfaces to go and just sink into those.
01:03:03
Speaker
Get like habitually sinking into them. Then I'm able to like, I'm not like wondering when I start to rupture with somebody, oh, let me first give this here so that they can overflow and be in the space.
01:03:20
Speaker
And I fall down all the time. yeah the I want to mention one other part of this. There's three pillars to healing the attachment disturbances. Number one is ideal parent figure meditation.
01:03:33
Speaker
Fun. Right? sorry you imagine in real time, like right now, and you can try this listener, like imagine if totally enlightened, totally attuned parent figures were sitting right there, however far close. They know. You don't have to tell a thing.
01:03:47
Speaker
Maybe they lay hands, maybe they don't, but they're there giving you those five things, those five healthy attachments, radiating it like the sunshine. That's number one. And that can happen through the field of consciousness.
01:03:59
Speaker
It can happen through deity practice for some people. Instead of like imagining an actual parent energy or a humanoid, lots of ways to do it. Number two, developing greater and greater metacognitive capacities, the ability to witness my thinking and my emotions as they're happening.
01:04:17
Speaker
Face the wall. So I can course correct. Face the wall. And number three, developing greater and greater verbal and nonverbal collaborative skills. Verbal and nonverbal collaborative skill.
01:04:30
Speaker
Now, this is cool. This is cool. Today, James was talking about something and I was having the experience of like frustration. I was feeling like i was feeling exasperated.
01:04:44
Speaker
i felt like he was talking about it a lot. And I said something in nonviolent fashion about it. moved on. And I could feel that he was like a little touched. He was like a little hurt by what I'd said.
01:04:59
Speaker
And so like five or six minutes later, I'm meeting, we're eating together, breakfast, brunch. And I said, you know, and and in light of all that I just said, Jimmy, if you want to keep talking about it,
01:05:16
Speaker
I'm cool with that. It seems important to you. was so thankful. Wow. I know. It was so sweet. And it was like a very, very, you know, small leap for me to take.
01:05:29
Speaker
And he really felt seen and accepted. it was just so damn sweet. What can I say? it I was very proud of us.
01:05:41
Speaker
It's so curious to me. I'm a relational creature, I feel very relational creature. And this paradox, I feel like it's a paradox. I feel like it's a face the wall paradox, solve it in a lifetime 20. Like,
01:05:55
Speaker
like Don't seek. Scott, don't seek any resources from another human being and learn how to receive and give them. That's right. Like, like fulfill from source, fulfill from reality, heal from reality, pick up the little boy, the teenager, the angsty 20 something, and so on, pick them up, hold them in those five qualities.
01:06:20
Speaker
But don't expect it from anybody else. But also learn how to share in those with other people. and go.
01:06:32
Speaker
It's a very beautiful process, this being human.
01:06:39
Speaker
If you're willing to sort of give up all the opinions and
01:06:46
Speaker
judgments. How much of that is a function of age do you
Aging Gracefully and Eldering
01:06:51
Speaker
see? And and are you seeing people in the in their younger years who are not having it a peak state of what we're talking about, but they're actually like, it's ah it's like a baseline way they're able to be. Are you seeing that in younger generations?
01:07:04
Speaker
I don't, I mean, i just really am most close with my kid and some of his good friends and they're good people. They're taking other people into consideration. They're really,
01:07:17
Speaker
aware of others um,
01:07:23
Speaker
you know, I've seen them struggle with a couple of friends who've gone off the rails. I've seen them be too harsh at times as they get older, it gets better. Same with us.
01:07:35
Speaker
No, as we get older, it's better, it's softer. Yeah. I think about my dad, how, how, and who he was his twenties and thirties. to how and who he is now in his 70s almost 80 like totally different same human but totally different so many I'm thinking of that recent book you wrote maybe it's older than I thought but like softening time that's the collected poems yeah he's in there yeah but that with that like just that title is a koan yeah
01:08:14
Speaker
like time is doing softening softening so that time doesn't pummel me like all these there's something about the possibility of really showing up for life and aging
01:08:33
Speaker
yeah I getting older i feel there are there are these inflection points where I've looked in the mirror and I just got pictures taken I was teaching at an event for Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and she had this incredible photographer there and he name is Peter Hurley and he takes pictures basically this very, very bright light bank, boom, boom, boom, boom.
01:08:56
Speaker
And you're in there and he takes your picture and there's nothing between you and the camera.
01:09:03
Speaker
And this is one of those points. There have been many others where I look at myself and I'm just like, wow, I'm getting older and older by the day. promised my mother I wouldn't change my face at all. I wouldn't do anything to it. And so I'm not doing anything to it.
01:09:20
Speaker
You know, I just like spend a lot of money on skincare, like blue chamomile bomb from May Lindstrom, but. No snail cream. Yeah. Like that.
01:09:30
Speaker
like i just can't do anything else. I promised. And I'm looking at these pictures, these little moments in time, these inflection points, as I said, where Better get used to it and get cool with it.
01:09:44
Speaker
We're just getting older. And the minute I'm able to just go, oh, yeah,
01:09:52
Speaker
I'm still here. And I'm older. And I'm smarter. And I'm softer.
01:09:59
Speaker
I'm more open. Things are more meaningful. like Suddenly, everything is fine. And I'm seeing some friends just go sideways. Like, oh my God, I'm getting older. I'm just going to give up.
01:10:14
Speaker
Or, oh my God, I'm getting older. I'm just going to do every possible intervention to not.
01:10:23
Speaker
And I think that the real
01:10:27
Speaker
the real task is just to accept it. Don't argue with reality. And uphold our dignity as much as we can. few years ago you and I were talking from time to time and probably you and other people about eldering and that was your word.
01:10:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:50
Speaker
So sweet. I do feel like that's what I'm just I'm just getting good at it. Like I'm just learning how to do this. Just getting warmed up. Just getting warmed up.
01:11:01
Speaker
That's how I feel. I'm just getting warmed up. I feel like every birthday I would say to Sally when she was still alive I feel like I'm just now fit to start the path. Yeah, it keeps being true and then I'm like oh, the next one comes. I'm like no, I'm almost ready. Yeah,
01:11:22
Speaker
almost. I'm almost ready. so's Getting ready to get ready. It's so sweet. I hope I never lose that. I don't think I will. I don't think it's up. I don't think it's an accidental thing. I think it's so think it's something that can like a like a resource that becomes excavated.
01:11:39
Speaker
i think I agree with you there.
01:11:42
Speaker
Yeah. I want to ask you what grandmother's heart is. Ro Bai Shin. oh That's where you saw the word ferocity. Ah.
01:11:54
Speaker
It was there. That's very fierce grace as the title went for Ram Dass' film.
01:12:05
Speaker
It's like a fierce seeing, knowing that you don't know, full presence, unprescribed appropriate response.
01:12:19
Speaker
It's all of those things.
01:12:23
Speaker
Knowing that things just are. and not trying to make them something else.
01:12:31
Speaker
Full acceptance. These are all facets of Baishin, grandmother's heart.
01:12:39
Speaker
I wonder if I could find it in the book and read it to you.
01:12:44
Speaker
Should I look and see if I can? and bet you could. I have the book pulled up. I have heart. think it sounds sweeter in your voice. I have a hard copy here on the altar that i'm going to grab and let's see if we can find it.
01:13:03
Speaker
So while we're here, take a few deep breaths to your whole body, everybody, just like you did on the entry. And as you exhale, just let go like you're setting down a heavy burden from every cell.
01:13:15
Speaker
This excerpt that Elina is going to read is more than just words. So the more you soften the body, you can just soften the soles of your feet, palms of your hands, like you're opening imaginary fists with your mind. and inhaling in deeply and sweetly and letting go through the whole body like you're setting down a heavy burden as you exhale
01:13:42
Speaker
and keep practicing for the rest of your life because there's other work to do to excavate love well relaxing in deeply into the body and breathing slowly and deeply those are the two things that i've seen that always are important and indispensable i found it yay okay it's chapter five grandmother's heart a fierce heart of tender listening grandmother's heart is a cultivation in certain circles of zen that carries equal measures of humility and compassionate presence this heart is apparent in our choice to turn towards suffering
01:14:24
Speaker
toward the difficult and stay rooted in the ground of our being. Grandmother's Heart trusts that we have the capacity to be present with whatever is happening, particularly in times of trouble.
01:14:37
Speaker
This heart is the energy at the source of our love, our practice, and our lives.
01:14:50
Speaker
When I consider the effect of this construct on my life, snapshots arise in my mind. The plush green grass in my childhood front yard, the yellow lines unfurling under my bike's front wheel on neighborhood streets, wintry Cornell University campus, sideways snowfall trudging to class in the trees, the bustling streets of New York City, the pavement beneath my feet,
01:15:20
Speaker
Art classes, especially bookbinding class at Cooper Union with my best friend. Countless yoga classes the world over, both as student and teacher. Our tiny secret wedding under the tree in Audubon Park in New Orleans.
01:15:38
Speaker
Our son being handed to me after I gave birth, the way my heart was broken and remade.
01:15:50
Speaker
yeah
01:15:54
Speaker
the way my heart was broken and remade and is that not life allow the breaking and trust the remaking that's right oh allow the breaking and trust the remaking yeah and without practice i don't see that happening very fluidly for anybody like there are certain traditions where I see practice is not emphasized it's more like and it's usually a male teacher giving pointing out instructions for non-dual awareness or something like this but I the where I see the most growth is in traditions that emphasize practice I mean my mom didn't have much of a practice and when she was about to die
01:16:43
Speaker
I got mercifully left alone with her and I had to, I just wanted to tell her it was going to be okay, that she could let go. Her body was starting to fail and she just, I could just feel that it was not, she was struggling, fighting.
01:16:58
Speaker
So I like got up, I've told the story before. I don't know if I told you, but I got up on top of the hospital bed and they sort of knelt to her right. And I weirdly,
01:17:10
Speaker
I don't know what possessed me, but I used my hands gently to lift her eyelids up so that I could see her eyeballs. So weird. And so I could tell her that everything was going to be okay and that we were going to be okay and that the boys, her grandsons were going to be okay and her girls, her daughters were going to be okay and that it was okay for her to go.
01:17:36
Speaker
And I could feel this like very palpable release. Her eyes were crazy scared and then they slowly kind of settled down. And I know she heard me. She came to a one of my other dearest friends in a dream two days later and said, I heard every word she said.
01:17:56
Speaker
So I know she heard me.
01:17:59
Speaker
But I think that too, both her fear without practice
01:18:07
Speaker
my urge to to help her feel safe is an important part of this conversation here because if you don't, if we don't have a practice, death will be so scary.
Preparing for Death through Practice
01:18:25
Speaker
But if we do, and we've been practicing for it for a number of decades even, or even just years or even just weeks prior, I found in hospice watching people who finally open up to, you know, some minister or Reverend or chaplain, they say, okay, tell me what I need to know. I'm out of here in a few days. I can feel it when they open up to it.
01:18:52
Speaker
Oh, it's just so beautiful to see somebody receive the truth of letting go of the body as not a thing to be feared, not some sort of giant awful fight, but just a release.
01:19:13
Speaker
I watched it with James's mom when she, she did medical assistance in dying. So beautiful, so brave. Took her months to come to it. And she finally did. There was a combination of vanity and total discomfort in her body. It was starting to really get weird.
01:19:32
Speaker
And she wasn't willing to go through that any further. Um, She was awesome. She ordered tea. So I served her and her friends tea. And then she took the medicine, you know, the the concoction that would end her organic life.
01:19:51
Speaker
And she laid back and we turned on Neal version, any ILL, you can find it on Spotify of the heart sutra, super beautiful, good friend of mine turned it on.
01:20:06
Speaker
And her last words, she already drank the medicine juice have sort laying back in the hospital bed. And we were all around her bed. And her last words were, is this the heart sutra?
01:20:23
Speaker
How auspicious. It doesn't get more auspicious than that. And that was the end. She died a few minutes later, maybe 20 minutes later.
01:20:36
Speaker
Wow. But she took it all. She took the practice on. she She did what we're talking about, which is, you know, she really decided to learn what it would mean to let go of the body.
01:20:48
Speaker
And she did. She even and had the foresight to do a couple of medical with a doctor and a nurse present. um ketamine journeys to practice dying.
01:21:03
Speaker
Like she was very clear about it. but choose And she was not spared, but she didn't.
01:21:10
Speaker
I'm right back in hospice with my mom on the last day. And I don't know a ton about her practice life. I know I introduced her to many things. I know I sent her many books.
01:21:23
Speaker
I know she would say when she wasn't, um, mad at me about something because we'd have these power dynamics right i know you were never had those with your mom what s knock them down drag them out fights I'm right I'm right but she would say to me oh I think you were born to be my teacher I'm like why don't you remember that next time you're arguing with me right right no take the blow Scott take the blow but we're there on the last day ah show up at the hospice house Rochester, New York.
01:21:52
Speaker
And i check in with the people before I go into her room to find out, you know, just what's happening. I don't want to just barge in but so She hasn't said anything or moved really much since last night. I could tell that she probably had taken the Roxanol maybe more than once, the ah pain easer, the opiate.
01:22:12
Speaker
And I had the mercy, as you well put it, to get to be alone with her for the day. wow And I helped ensure that by playing on a Bluetooth speaker mantras so that people wouldn't want to come in mostly. we will Chanted the Guru Gita to her.
01:22:29
Speaker
Had Omnama Shivaya playing on a loop. um Guru Mai's voice or Baba's voice? Both. Great time for both. And my voice as well. And then you know chanted to her some of the things. But really it was just clear that that day, after the first hour, she held my hand.
01:22:49
Speaker
She didn't say anything. don't she could. I knew she was choosing. She asked me the night before, when are you flying home again? And I told her. And I know, allah talking about James's mom, yeah whatever other lifetime she had, she chose when she was going.
01:23:07
Speaker
people She was like, I'm not going to stick around after Scott leaves. And I was not going to miss flying home to marry two of my best friends to one another, Greg and Zach.
01:23:19
Speaker
Right. There was no way we've been preparing it. I wasn't going to let them down and leave them scrambling for somebody at the last minute. Like it was as related as my mom dying. It was they were one thing for me.
01:23:32
Speaker
They still are one one happening.
01:23:37
Speaker
And then there was this point later in the day where the nurse said she's showing, and I knew it before she said, she's showing that coloring on her hands and feet.
01:23:49
Speaker
And I could hear the smokestack breath starting. yeah
01:23:53
Speaker
And I heard her say inside of me you need to go eat my mom, like I could hear it. And i was like, she doesn't want me here for this.
01:24:05
Speaker
No. And within 15 minutes, I got a phone call that she'd passed. Yeah.
01:24:13
Speaker
But I know, unquestionably, that she had the best possible death that she could have.
01:24:21
Speaker
And was well prepared. What a gift that she got to
01:24:31
Speaker
do this on her own terms in a place like that's sort of similar, it sounds like, to the place where I work, which is how an actual house where there are just a few beds and it's non-for-profit.
Truth in Care Decisions and Gratitude
01:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, there's non-profit, only a few beds. I wouldn't call it exactly her choice. Her choice... and I had to really work with her on it was that I and her side of the family would come take turns taking care of her at her own house.
01:24:55
Speaker
And I had to be firm and loving and really get her like what she wanted and really show her that I got what she wanted and say, I'm honestly and so are your sisters terrified that if something happened, we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves if we did we mess something up or dropped you trying to wash you or something like this. And nobody feels safe trying to care for you at home.
01:25:19
Speaker
Right.
01:25:21
Speaker
So would you be willing? And then she she much to her whole life. She said, You know, Scott, I'm the kind of person that I might not like what you have to tell me, but I want to know the truth no matter what it is.
01:25:33
Speaker
And it may take me a minute. but once I get my head around it I'm there and she did it good for her she did it while watching hallmark movies back to back dude that's where it's at it's really funny this seems like a good wrapping up moment and I just I thank you from the all the depths of my being and to share this time together i love when we get to be together in any way such a gift
01:26:09
Speaker
such a gift really truly and i very much look forward to and hope it works out to have you back before the lunch of hold nothing well yeah that's actually a very generous and good idea if you're willing i'm 100 willing 100 willing couple hundred percent well like how this got birthed is there were so many times over the years and I know I said it to you where I'm talking to one of our friends on the phone I'm like you Nikki Costello whoever I'm like we should be recording this so other people could totally and then here it is here it is it's really exactly how phone call would have gone pretty much pretty much
01:26:51
Speaker
Only I got the luxury of getting to look at you here. Some of you are listening. If you want to watch, you can always go to YouTube and see the video versions of these. And I invite us all to just end by taking 10 seconds or so if you want to sit longer and just be here doing nothing together.
01:27:28
Speaker
Loving the episode? Click to follow, like, and share it as widely as possible. Want to go deeper with the choice to grow? Explore the show notes. You'll find links there for going deeper with our guests, as well as how to work with me in the work of waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and showing up.
01:27:48
Speaker
Thanks for listening. Can't wait to join you in the next episode.