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Jennifer Pastiloff on the 'School of Whatever Works'
267 Plays1 month ago
Writer, speaker, and “beauty hunter” Jennifer Pastiloff joins The Choice to Grow for a conversation about grief, letting go of perfectionism, the healing power of humor, and why telling the truth—especially the messy, human kind—can change your life. Jen opens up about her hearing loss, her journey as a mother, and how she’s learned to stop pretending and start truly living. This episode is a love letter to those who feel like they don’t belong and a call to anyone ready to show up as they are.
Jennifer Pastiloff - Writer, Speaker, Beauty Hunter
Jennifer Pastiloff trots the globe as a public speaker and to host her retreats in Italy, as well as her one-of-a-kind workshops, which she has taught to thousands of people all over the world. The author of the popular Substack, also called Proof of Life, she
teaches writing and creativity classes called Allow, and workshops called Shame Loss, when she isn’t painting and selling her art. She has been featured on Good Morning America, and Katie Couric, and in New York magazine, People, Shape, Health magazine, and other media outlets for her authenticity and unique voice. She is deaf,
reads lips, and mishears almost everything, but what she hears is usually funnier (at least she thinks so). The author of the national bestseller On Being Human, Pastiloff lives in Southern California with her son, Charlie Mel
Scott Schwenk - Master Coach, Spiritual Teacher, Culture Architect
Host and creator of the podcast The Choice To Grow, Scott is known for his hugely popular courses and workshops with OneCommune.com, Younity.com, Wanderlust Festivals, and Unplug Meditation, Scott has been catalyzing the inner evolution of others for decades: helping them to grow, transform obstacles into opportunities, and find Love within.
Scott spent several years living and studying in a meditation monastery which introduced him to the core body of Tantric meditation traditions which continue to flow through each of his teachings. Scott continues to study and teach from two key Tantric lineage streams.
Apprenticeships in leadership development, meditation and philosophy training, shadow work/shadow resolution and spiritual awakening are all part of Scott’s development into the thought-leader that he is today. He continues to refine his offerings studying and practicing with key innovators at the leading edges of human development.
Scott’s teachings support the entire person to not only progressively recognize, stabilize and embody our inextricable oneness with the source of creation (Waking Up), but also to resolve the wounds of the past (Cleaning Up), continually expand our capacities for wider and more inclusive perspectives on any moment (Growing Up) and creatively and joyfully participate and collaborate with all of life as a loving thriving human being (Showing Up).
You can receive a free guided meditation and explore Scott’s courses, workshops, retreats, training and master coaching at https://scottschwenk.com and can find him on Instagram @thescottschwenk.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Choice to Grow' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to The Choice to Grow. I'm Scott Schwenk. Through these dialogues, we'll explore fresh perspectives and discover practical tools for navigating a thriving life that adds value wherever we are.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'll introduce you to innovators and creators from across our world who embody what it means to cultivate growing as a way of life. Let's prepare together.
00:00:24
Speaker
Take a deep breath in.
00:00:28
Speaker
Hold breath briefly as you soften your shoulders and soften the soles of your feet and palms of your hands. Then exhale like you're releasing tension and setting down a heavy burden from every cell.
00:00:43
Speaker
Now let's dive in.
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome back everybody to The Choice to Grow.
Meet Jennifer Pasteloff: Authenticity and Humor
00:00:54
Speaker
Today I've got with me a special guest and this is Jennifer Pasteloff. Jennifer trots the globe as a public speaker who hates bios and hosts her retreats in Italy as well as her one-of-a-kind workshops. She's taught these to thousands of people all over the world.
00:01:11
Speaker
She's the author of a popular substack, the same name as her new book, Proof of Life. She teaches writing and creativity classes called Allow and workshops called Shame Loss, we gotta go into that, when she isn't painting and selling her art.
00:01:27
Speaker
She's been featured on Good Morning America, Katie Couric, New York Magazine, People, Shape, Health Magazine, and other media outlets for authenticity and unique voice.
00:01:38
Speaker
She is deaf, reads lips, and mishears almost everything, but what she hears is usually funnier, at least she thinks so. The author of national bestseller On Being Human, Pastiloff lives in Southern California with her son, Charlie Mel.
00:01:54
Speaker
I first met Jen many, many years ago when I would visit my friend Stacy, now called Sarasai, at a restaurant called The Newsroom. It was a very, very popular place with a whole rack of magazines and a whole lot of people who either were important or wanted to be important.
00:02:11
Speaker
who would show up there for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And we met a few times through Stacy. And just recently I was in an event with Jeff Krasno up at the One Commune property and there was Jen and she she looked at me and she said, I know I know you.
00:02:26
Speaker
I said, I know you too, but I don't know how. And then few days later we tracked it back. One of the things I appreciate about Jen is her ability to turn just about anything into humor.
00:02:40
Speaker
And I really think it's how most of us actually find our way through life if we actually open up to the humor and the silliness and the craziness of being in a body and doing all the stuff we do to get through a day together.
00:02:54
Speaker
There's tons of praise for her books from people that you love. I think the most interesting thing is to get right to it and start to dialogue together about what really matters.
Exploring Love and Worthiness
00:03:05
Speaker
And I'm actually going to begin, Jen, with the question I ask every guest. There's a question I ask every single guest, and it's based on a quote that I love and that I've been giving out for years in my teachings from Suzuki Roshi, Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, who opened the Zen Center of San Francisco in the nineteen sixty s And he said, death is certain.
00:03:28
Speaker
The time is not. What is the most important thing? Love.
00:03:35
Speaker
Love, which is, frankly, whatever you say it is, it come up like it can look like anything. um I mean, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else.
00:03:46
Speaker
um And doing love, you know, like as a verb. um And that's it. Because... Look, there's proof of life, my book, it's it's to say there's nothing that we can hold in our hands or no bio, no achievements that ah finally I'm worthy, finally I'm love i'm lovable. It's um inherently who we are. It's invisible. It's what makes us us. and you know, love, like at first I thought connection, which is to say love, it's one in the same, but love, you know, operating from that being that embodying that.
00:04:26
Speaker
um Yeah. And that, and that translates into connection to me. It's one in the same, truly. You're a mom and most moms I've met,
00:04:39
Speaker
when they're brought back to it, can re-experience and touch that the love they experienced in the first good moments, because some moms, the baby wasn't ready or healthy right away, so it took a while to have the good moments of eye contact with their baby was the most intense love they'd ever experienced in your in their lives.
00:05:00
Speaker
Say that. Yep. Well, first of all, before I forget, because I have raging ADD, as you were talking about shame loss, I don't think the camera was on me, but I had a boogie.
00:05:11
Speaker
And I was like, oh, lordy. But I'm sitting in front of a mirror, so I'm like covertly trying to fix it. And and then finally, i don't know if you noticed, I like went off screen to get it, and I thought it was hilarious. I was like, really? Because I could also just sit here with the boogie in my nose the whole time.
00:05:27
Speaker
And then also the other thing was when you said the newsroom and I had this rack of, and like my 12 year old brain was like, thought of like a rack, like my rack. I got a good rack. And I was like, oh but my God.
00:05:39
Speaker
Okay. So um the other thing is in my new book, I have a poem called Afterbirth and it starts off with
00:05:50
Speaker
Everybody shit, the nurse said when I asked her, well, did i You know. and my son was born on a laugh. That's not a lie. I laughed and he flew out and I'm forever grateful.
00:06:04
Speaker
But...
Motherhood Reflections and Insights
00:06:05
Speaker
No lie, Scott. When they put him on my chest, I didn't know. I went, I had a panic. I went, is he supposed to look like that? I did not know. Which, of course, I'm like, Jesus Christ, Jen. I didn't read a book. I was just like, I'm to do it.
00:06:19
Speaker
um He's covered in this, you know, gunk, and I didn't know. And so a lot of people are like, it was love at first sight. I've fallen more in love with him as his personality has grown.
00:06:30
Speaker
But... The eye contact thing, breastfeeding was my very favorite thing in the world. and um And I would do this exercise a lot that I actually first did in the landmark world.
00:06:45
Speaker
people don't know what it is, it's I don't even know how to describe it, but Scott can. um Where um in the advanced course, we had to like stand on stage with hundreds of people and look into someone's eyes. I'm sure you remember this.
00:07:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah. wow Everybody that looked at me cried. was like, wow, I make people cry. Wait for it. So notoriously, I, my whole life, I have not been able to let, well, now I do. I couldn't let anyone look me in the eye.
00:07:13
Speaker
um And it was like, I kind of covered it up, but I'd look all around, you know, and and and fidge she's fidgety, whatever. It wasn't like, it didn't maybe land as like, dang, she can't make eye contact. But so we're on stage and I forget his name. He's lovely, really tall gentleman across from me.
00:07:32
Speaker
I'm looking in his eyes and I start hyperventilating, hyperventilating, crying, like someone said my mom just got killed, like that kind of, and I ran off the stage and I couldn't, and I was hiding in the bathroom and I was, and and then I was ashamed because what just happened?
00:07:49
Speaker
Um, And, you know, and and i I had the great epiphany. i always knew i carried around this belief of I'm a bad person. And that is because I thought when I was eight, my dad died and I thought it was my fault. I killed him.
00:08:04
Speaker
And i lived with that. And so I was afraid if someone looked in my eyes, they would see that. So i got clear on that. So cut back to breastfeeding.
00:08:15
Speaker
and My son and I, I could just look in his eyes forever. And it's like the most like, easy, pleasurable, natural, loving, it's like nothing I can experience. And it it sounds so obvious, but
00:08:32
Speaker
It's like, oh, that's because there's no judgment. I'm not afraid. He's seeing, oh, she's a bad person. So i would i would then do that exercise in my workshops that made me hyperventilate at Landmark. Like they have people look in each other's eyes.
00:08:49
Speaker
And i go, hashtag baby's eyes, baby's eyes. And they what? I say, so... I want you to visualize looking at a kid like a baby's eyes. You don't have that like same thing. It's fact.
00:09:02
Speaker
Where if you put two adults together, people giggle, not everyone, or they cry, you know, but with a baby. And so, and and because it sounds ridiculous, hashtag baby's eyes, but...
00:09:14
Speaker
But yes, it's that because it's like pure acceptance, you know, and and and no judgment and just reflection. And I like to go, may I remember that as me? And that's what I'm talking about, the love, like the at the core of it.
00:09:28
Speaker
It's that. Yeah. I do that in the mirror for years. You do that in what? In the mirror. Really?
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah. And I teach it. You actually go hashtag baby's eyes, Scott. yeah No. No. But I will now, maybe.
Self-Connection and Embracing Identity
00:09:46
Speaker
will now, maybe. What do you do? look You just look at your own eyes and like hold it? start the same way. is that that They called it the being with exercise. You start the same way. You pick one eye.
00:09:56
Speaker
relax the body deeply like you're going to go into meditation, slow the exhales, because most of us until we got a lot of practice are going to be thinking about our judgments about our body.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, instead of really connecting past the physicality to the life force coming out of the eyes. Same with other people. The, the, um, 100%.
00:10:20
Speaker
So I've turned it into a practice, a regular practice. And when I'm feeling stirred up, like I have in the last couple of weeks with what's been, and and without, we won't get into details about the world. Is that what you said?
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. Stirred up, shaken up, stirred up. Yeah. I just wasn't, you know, I miss here. So it was like, it could have been anything. Yeah. So when I feel off, I go to the mirror.
00:10:46
Speaker
Because what I'm missing is what comes what would have come from if I had enlightened parents who were totally attuned, attunement. And so my eyeballs don't know the difference between you or me giving it.
00:11:00
Speaker
It's just being given and received in the mirror. What was the word you said? What I'm missing is the attunement. Attunement. Yeah, I love that. Feeling seen, known, and loved.
00:11:12
Speaker
Look, I'm wearing a temporary tattoo that says align. you know love it. um And I love what you're saying because i you know, I think of like, I call it the school of whatever works.
00:11:25
Speaker
And again, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. And there's nothing that like you or I can say universally, well, this is what you do when you're out of alignment. Because it's like, we got to find what works for us. And I have a whole little toolbox.
00:11:39
Speaker
And toolboxs and Not everything works all the time. But like, I love that because it's one of your tools, but also what's great is you shared it and it's like, oh, let me play around with that now.
00:11:50
Speaker
You know, ah whatever works in finding the attunement or helping us stay in alignment, I'm for it. As long as it's not like, Malicious, right? Yeah, or harmful.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like, so it's just a yet another tool when you're like, when I'm not grounded, when I'm out of alignment, out of attunement, whatever the language is what are what are my?
00:12:14
Speaker
Well, what helps? That's why i love in the very beginning, you said something like,
00:12:22
Speaker
Oh, maybe you it was when you said like, may this conversation something to the effect of like uplift everyone. And you said, I don't know how, but it will. And so I love that. It's like, um, ah like finding the, how each of us get to discover the how of, okay, I'm feeling not connected to that life force or whatever.
00:12:46
Speaker
How do I get back? Let's go discover. And implicit in that is something knows there's a back to get to. That there's what? A no back to get to? There is a back to get to. Let me get back to it, you said. that they're Implied in that is there must be a back to get to if I even have that thought.
00:13:11
Speaker
That's so funny because of my hearing, I'm like, and I'm nodding, like pretending I understand, but because of my hearing, i's i'm I'm like vacillating between that. You're saying there is no back to get to or there is. which And both are very interesting because in the book, especially as a woman, I think, although i can't speak to being a man.
00:13:31
Speaker
um One of my old default things you know from my eating disorder years, which is was a way I dealt with grief and whatever, is an old synapse where if I'm sad or stressed or out of alignment, if I'm not careful, my immediate thing is...
00:13:48
Speaker
I let myself go. I'm, I'm, you know, um instead of focusing on what's really going on, it's that, but the, I let myself go. and it, and it's a thing women say, and it's fascinating because it's like, or it's like, I need to get back to, or get it back. And it's like, there is no getting it back, but, but getting back to who I really am or like,
00:14:15
Speaker
um like
00:14:18
Speaker
A lot of times we've I feel like I've drifted off. It's like coming back home. but But because of my ears, I wasn't sure what you were saying.
00:14:28
Speaker
I'm actually fascinated by this. this um And let me take my time with it to to let it kind of clarify.
00:14:40
Speaker
My experience of being with you today is that
00:14:51
Speaker
there's a sensibility or a sense actual sense capacity
00:14:57
Speaker
that has had to come online or does come online that informs you more than your concrete senses.
00:15:08
Speaker
Did that come through? Well, it's funny. I don't know, it almost doesn't matter because what' what is what it's landing as is what I... Because of my... It's almost like because of my deafness, I have this other these other superpowers. And i don't know that's exactly what you're saying, but maybe, or maybe I'm just being a wild egomania.
00:15:28
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. i i'm um I think that's possible, but I'm not assuming that's what I mean. I'm just saying I can feel... Okay, so same you say it again. I'm pushing my hearing aid in and I'm like... I can feel that there's a sense, a capacity that you draw on to understand what people are actually communicating.
00:15:53
Speaker
more than what they're saying, even if you understood every word they're saying out loud, most people are not saying the thing. Oh, yeah, okay, so we're saying the same thing. I just like use the word superpower as kind of a little wink. like But yes, i mean i I always say I'm a witch, and I used to say that kind of jokingly, and now I don't.
00:16:15
Speaker
um i have ah you know And people are often floored by it, and I do believe we all have that. But... i don't want to so I don't care why, frankly, but what i why I'm in that way.
00:16:26
Speaker
But what I will say is my deafness has exacerbated it, and so and then I've embraced it. And so i So yes, yes. And, you know, a lot of it like was based on survival at first, like, how do I get by in the world and learning how to listen in different ways. And now, but like embracing it as a whole other thing.
00:16:51
Speaker
it's It's like, um, I don't know. It makes me feel very, like way more comfortable in my skin. Like, actually I'm not missing everything all the time.
00:17:03
Speaker
yeah
00:17:09
Speaker
I'm just thinking about the listeners. you know where Where are you listeners or us? Where are we anywhere in our lives diminishing ourselves because Oh, I can't draw like that person draws or I can't do this the way they do it.
00:17:28
Speaker
hey But like to come when we talk about coming home, whatever the tool is that gets us there, a mirror, a massage, whatever it is, drinking water, walking on the beach. I was like, no, Scott, not anymore.
00:17:44
Speaker
No, no, no. Water. e Water. Yeah.
00:17:50
Speaker
how important it is to find ways to drop the noise. You know, and and the irony that I'm a deaf person and that I'm going to give you a resounding fuck yes is yeah. yeah And the important thing is, a well,
Daily Practices and Sobriety Journey
00:18:08
Speaker
there's two. One is to be in the land of possibility because I know so many people where it's impossible.
00:18:15
Speaker
No, it's not. And then define the ways. and And that can feel overwhelming, especially if you're someone like me who is like, oh, i have to write the book. And instead of just sitting down and writing one word, it's thinking about the whole book.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's like, um finding ways, discover, flip the narrative and make it exciting. Okay, great. I get to find ways, but yes, it's possible. And and also there's no set way, you know, should is an asshole. There's no Bible on like, this is how to, you find what works.
00:18:54
Speaker
And then you honor what doesn't and you don't beat yourself up as best as you can because that's old hat. Although you may again, i do, I'm not going to lie, you know, but um yeah, what works to help drop the noise? You know, I call them, i curse a lot. and you know, I used to say, i'm working on it. Like,
00:19:15
Speaker
That's a lie. So um' not I'm not, I'm actually not working on cursing lists, but I call it your bullshit stories, but also the inner asshole and look, call it whatever you want. Your inner bully, inner critic, Roger, um who, and ultimately it's there to protect us, I think, but it can be the boss of us. So how do i quiet How do I not let it be the boss of me today?
00:19:39
Speaker
Just today. Cause that's all I got no idea for tomorrow today, today. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
Did the today show up earlier in your life or did that show up in the last seven months with this newfound sobriety?
00:19:56
Speaker
No, it showed up earlier, but I forget it all the time. And that's why like human, right? Um, it was It was actually during COVID because um my work, although it's like, I don't know how to define it. And that kind of tickles me.
00:20:13
Speaker
You know, I'll be like, I don't know how to describe my workshop, but look around. It's packed. It's sold out. So I hope that inspires you. Not that you want to do what I do, but that you can create a thing that's not a thing and make it a thing. And you get to say, do you know what I'm saying? Like,
00:20:29
Speaker
I don't, you know, we'll finish I'll be in London, we'll finish it and I'll go, what would you call this? And everyone's like, hell if I know, but I loved it. And um so during COVID, I stopped working.
00:20:41
Speaker
And what I realized with all of a sudden, I was like, And interestingly, I felt like the old me, like I, how did I get back here? Like I let me, what the fuck? And what dawned on me is, oh, working keeps me in like in alignment, you know.
00:20:58
Speaker
And yesterday, Elena said, Brower said, you know, what is like, we we teach best what we most need to learn, you know, or maybe I flipped it, but it's that because I really love what I do and I don't as aware as best to my knowledge, nothing comes out of my mouth that like is bold, like I walk the talk. And so when I wasn't working, i was like, oh and then I went, wait a minute, I have nothing anchoring me to like anything.
00:21:32
Speaker
And, and I was and to take the piss out of myself, I was like Oh, what do I think that one book I read that one time or those workshops I did like, you know, or, or those people that said they knew things like i I can subsist on that or, um, and so it hit me like a ton of bricks. Oh my God. It's about daily practices. It's about today.
00:21:54
Speaker
And like, like it got, cause I was so depressed, so out of alignment and I, and I couldn't figure it out. I'm okay, so we're, so working in quotes, meaning like being in the dialogue and I wasn't.
00:22:08
Speaker
So then I was like, okay, what? And so I began to seek out daily practices. And then, you know, as I wrote this book, you know, I'm really big on humor and also honesty. and went back and and at the 11th hour, edited everything so that it was daily-ish practices. Because i was like, I'm not going to lie.
00:22:24
Speaker
I'm like so not consistent. but his But really, it's about... today because how much we set ourselves up for like I'm going to write every day and from now on i I'm going to x y or Z. It's like, you know what?
00:22:41
Speaker
Today. um So, yeah, that definitely came before the sobriety thing.
00:22:50
Speaker
And yet I forget it a lot. So what was the turning point for knowing you had to choose sobriety or wanted to? Oh, I mean, I knew, gosh, I don't know, 20, 25 years. It wasn't that I didn't know. Like I damn well knew. I just didn't want to do anything about it.
00:23:10
Speaker
So I have a thing, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, where I had a hack where I'm not going to say it out loud and then it doesn't exist. I did that with my marriage. I did that with my deafness for a long time. And I did it with drinking.
00:23:24
Speaker
Just not going to name it. um until I did. and And the turning point was um my dad dropped there when he was 38. I was eight. He was a drug addict.
00:23:36
Speaker
And my son turned to eight. And
00:23:43
Speaker
I got really clear. I had never in my life ever, ever, ever, ever seen myself with tenderness or softness until my son turned eight. And I had a
00:23:55
Speaker
a breakdown of sorts. I don't know. It was like, I couldn't be, I, it was astounding. I was like, that was me the first time. And um and then there was a bit of shame around that because I was like, this so old, what's wrong with me? And, but you know what? That's the story too. There's no timeline. It's imaginary, imaginary time guides. It's never too late.
00:24:19
Speaker
So I saw myself with softness and tenderness. And I also got really clear. um i i don't know when my bodily time will be up. You know, touch wood, it's not for quite some time.
00:24:31
Speaker
But I'm not, I am not going to kill myself like my father did. And it took my son turning eight. So that's the short script of it. I have no proof about this, but I have said to so many clients in their one on one sessions with utter conviction who have kids that whatever age one's children's are children are child is unlocks more of the access to that time in one's own life, knowingly or unknowingly, this stuff will come up.
00:25:04
Speaker
Oh, you mean like every age they hit or? or Yeah, it unlocks. So when he's nine, it unlocks nine. Absolutely, 100%. And eight, eight, like, i will I will never have language to describe eight, what eight was. I mean, I essentially, i thought I died then. Like, I, until three years ago, I thought I was dead inside.
00:25:24
Speaker
And of course, the great irony is I lead these beautiful workshops, and I was wonderful at holding space for others, but nothing. And I stopped being a kid and like, I was like, I'm the man of the house now. And I told myself, I don't care. locked my jaw and I chanted I'm strong and I'm a bad person until I didn't have to chant it. It just was so, um so Charlie turning eight was like, no one could have prepared me. Even if they told me it was like, um, the most life-changing experience ever. Um,
00:26:00
Speaker
Is the tenderness growing towards yourself more since then? Or is it something you have to work at? I've never heard it put that way or even thought it put that way. And I'm so fucking lute. I love that. Yes.
00:26:11
Speaker
Yes. And yes.
00:26:15
Speaker
That's a beautiful way to put it. Yes.
00:26:19
Speaker
It's so easy to to say things that are tropes, and they actually are true, but like it's so easy to say things when I look at my life, your life, so many people I've interviewed who make a big difference were cracked open at an early age by really difficult experiences.
00:26:35
Speaker
yeah And I come back again and again to how much compassion that that can offer when it's there. Cho Gyum Trungpa, who was part of creating Naropa University, one of the first lineage Tibetan monks to escape Tibet and come to America.
00:26:57
Speaker
He was a drunk. He was a profound transmitter of truth and and and lineage, Tibetan Buddhism. And he he had a terrible car accident when he was first out of Tibet that left him in intense pain.
00:27:15
Speaker
Nobody knew if he was really a drunk or if he was just putting on a show because he could seem, and we'd bring whiskey on stage to teach. and drink it and then kind of let act all sort of way. And he would come off stage sometimes to one of his close people and just totally seem sober and go, how'd you like the show? That was me. And that's why almost everyone, and this fascinates me and frightens me because I've i learned how at an early age to withstand, like I never presented as no one knew. I'm like, how could you not know? i drank like a bottle of tequila every two days, but at night only, of course, you know, but
00:27:52
Speaker
But I never presented as, you know, and so it's very interesting to hear that. Well, and what he said that sticks with me, he said many things, but one thing he said, he said, I don't care how much wisdom you have until you've suffered enough. I don't trust it because you don't have any compassion.
00:28:16
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you what. Like in the moment, it wasn't like my dad dying is a gift or my hearing loss is a gift. Hell no. No, but you know what?
Navigating Challenges with Humor
00:28:25
Speaker
I'll never forget. I think it was 2014.
00:28:28
Speaker
I broke my foot and I had been on antidepressants, which I'm on now. And shame loss, sharing that. But at the time i had gone off and i was not doing that well.
00:28:40
Speaker
And I broke my foot and I had, I had, lapsed back into not great habits with like my eating disorder and over exercising. I was leading a retreat. I broke my foot and it felt like the worst thing that could have happened to me because I was immobilized. And, and so I'm at the ER, I'll never forget this. And I posted on Facebook, i you know, I broke my foot and someone wrote like,
00:29:04
Speaker
this is your yoga. This is a gift. And I like closed the computer and I was like, mom, take it away. Cause I'm about to write, you should fuck off all the way off because like that is bypassing, you know what, whatever your time is, whether it's 15 minutes or a year, like you gotta to feel it first.
00:29:25
Speaker
Like in what universe does something happen? And like, there's like immediately you go to, this is a gift. Maybe i can't speak for everyone, but, Like what, what, what?
00:29:37
Speaker
So the gift in my dad dying and all that was no compassion for myself. No, until my son turned eight, but for other people, like perhaps my greatest gift for which I am so grateful.
00:29:54
Speaker
Wow.
00:29:57
Speaker
And combined with my feeling, because cause like those two things, like I'm a walking, like, and sometimes I do forget not to make ah assumptions or stories, but because of those two things, it's like I am, i am and I think that's why I'm,
00:30:13
Speaker
like people meet me and they're like, I feel like I've known you forever. you know, i joke, like I'm bad at almost everything, but what I'm good at, I'm really good at. And one is like, you know, connection and people feel very safe around me.
00:30:24
Speaker
And that is, that comes from that sensibility, right? That compassion and that sort of, um i got you-ness.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker
You know, i feel tender for All the times I've said something or other people have said something that sounded like a spiritual bypass, they meant well, you know they really did mean well.
00:30:52
Speaker
And I feel like we are just at the beginning of more people starting to learn how to just be with what's happening and yeah be with an emotion without trying to coach it, fix it, medicate it, push it away and just like, wait,
00:31:11
Speaker
It's just energy. But so it's interesting. You're talking like for your own self, that's one thing. Like learn to just, and that's hard. I have a really challenging time being with what is so, which is why I said the thing about like, if I don't name it, but where you,
00:31:28
Speaker
So yes, but around other people saying to you, you know, I work with all these women who've lost
Connecting Deeply and Hosting Retreats
00:31:33
Speaker
children. i bring I bring them my retreat and I'm really good at that. And the people at my retreat, because it's like no one's trying to fix them. No one offers platitudes. It's about bearing witness and that's all they need. And more and more I've gotten good because I've learned it.
00:31:51
Speaker
Right. So it's like the other people stuff. Yeah. yeah where it's like, like some people are like, they simply can't be with a woman who's lost a child, especially if they have a child, because a all it's like it's contagious, right? Like they're, or they wanna, you know, instead of just being with it.
00:32:14
Speaker
But I think i think it's it's, and maybe it's the same thing, but it's like within our own selves, but also being with others with grief or whatever's going on, you know?
00:32:26
Speaker
My first retreat at Omega, Was it my first? Yeah, I think it was my first retreat at Omega. was It was still sort of quarantine. we We were like sort of wearing masks, not wearing masks. you said it was still sort of corny. And I was like that's hilarious. You said that with such a straight face.
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah, quarantine. Quarantine. COVID. And I don't remember what prompted me to ask this question to the people in the retreat. I was talking about how suffering is important to be with and it grows so many important things.
00:32:57
Speaker
And then I just said, has anyone in here lost a child? Wow. Three sets of people. Three people? Three different people out of a retreat of maybe 25.
00:33:11
Speaker
That's so interesting that you had that down whatever intuition. It got so real right away. Yeah, I love it. and And nobody tried to coach anybody. Thank God.
00:33:26
Speaker
And what was helpful to a lot of folks was to see that like some of the losses were in time a long time ago. it didn't It doesn't matter. And you wrote that somewhere in something I read today preparing for this. I was talking a about about the shame about something I dealt with with my son turning eight. And I was like, really, Jen?
00:33:46
Speaker
As if grief has an expiration date. And I think what you're saying is super important because we all need to remember that and and keep reiterating that and and honoring that. There is a woman, let me see, I'm gonna just go grab the paper right here.
00:34:01
Speaker
There's a woman who is a neuroscientist. i mean I'm gonna wait, I gotta read your lips, so I'm gonna wait you come back, okay. There's a woman who's a neuroscientist, Mary Frances O'Connor.
00:34:13
Speaker
okay She was recently on the Huberman Labs podcast, and she focuses on grief and grieving. oh And so she has distinguished the difference between grief and grieving.
00:34:27
Speaker
oo I want to hear this podcast, but tell me. Grieving, we're going to do for the rest of our lives. We just are. Grief is is the immediate.
00:34:38
Speaker
It's the get cute, like I'm in grief. Yeah, I'm in grief, like the first however many stages or waves or whatever the heck it is. like yeah I lost my mom to cancer right before quarantine, right before COVID.
00:34:53
Speaker
Sorry. Went into lockdown as a single person, and then my dad stopped speaking to me, and permanently. You don't talk to him still? No, I've tried right, right, right. He just got crazy. He's a born again, Christian in South Carolina who can't stand that his son is gay and is torn up. Wow. That's a lot of loss buddy.
00:35:15
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. So I'm there in lockdown. Going, okay. I'm going to assess on this because did your dad like not know you were gay before? i mean, no, he's, he got triggered because, well, I've told this story. I'll tell it again.
00:35:33
Speaker
So in the beginning of lockdown, I said to him and he didn't recall it this way, dad, I need you to lean in and check in on me a bit more. I don't know how this is going to go.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah. i I'm not going to see anybody I know. i don't ask for what you needed. Yeah. Right, right? He didn't hear it that way. He thought I was going to check in with him on my own. So couple weeks go by and I go, hey, you know, this, this, this, I said this and oh, I misunderstood. And I said, and this is where it changed forever.
00:36:04
Speaker
I said, because I thought we were at this point in life after all these years. I said, when did you come out just for my reference? like to I came out to him as by the week I graduated from college.
00:36:15
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay. Right? Like, this is not new news. Got it. And so i I said, you know, you have a wife. And then I said, jokingly, but not, was like, not that I want a wife. I'm as gay as can be and wouldn't have it any other way.
00:36:31
Speaker
That was the thing. And then every topic of conversation- Was that me in relation to him though? Like what? yeah I don't, it was something about it. And who knows, my mom thinks my dad was gay.
00:36:42
Speaker
um They haven't been together since I was seven. So my young event was them- That is so wild and bizarre. and but wait, so he gets salty on anything we talk about the rest of that call and another phone call a couple weeks later. And I exited that phone call.
00:36:59
Speaker
It's the last time I spoke to him and I wrote and I said, what is going on? What is actually going This makes no sense. we have You wrote him? Yeah, we had two good years of of FaceTime.
00:37:11
Speaker
Really good years. After years of not getting along, we had two good years of FaceTime. This before all this. Before all this.
00:37:19
Speaker
So he writes back to me this short letter that totally centers himself saying, it's none of the topics that we we're talking about. It's that I'm quote, agonizing in my heart over your chosen lifestyle as a homosexual and that I won't have biological grandchildren.
00:37:36
Speaker
Oh, God. Wait, so I write, and I would have done it differently at this stage, but I wrote the letter. Vroom.
00:37:46
Speaker
He says he's a sober person. So the first thing I did was cut and paste from the 12 steps about making an amends and how you allow the person to go through whatever they need to go through and don't assume that your amends is suddenly supposed to wave a magic wand and they're going to be feeling better about all the shit you did.
00:38:05
Speaker
um So I wrote all the things I wrote like, you know, trauma awareness, how trauma works in a body, all the things. you know He beat me as a kid. he His anger was terrifying. His eyes would shake and he would just go crazy at the drop of a hat.
00:38:22
Speaker
Then when he became born-again Christian, my experience from him was like, God's forgiven me so everybody else needs to just let it all go and it's all good. He's like, no, that's not how it works. So I know pretty surely that that letter is why he won't communicate with me ever again.
00:38:43
Speaker
His shame it's so sad. I mean, it's, as someone, you know, who lost their dad so young and, and who has a kid, like I'm fascinated and I know it's, it's weird how many people I know who are like a strange, it's fascinating to me that your dad wouldn't move heaven and
Family Loss and Religious Ironies
00:39:01
Speaker
earth.
00:39:01
Speaker
Um, no pun intended born again, Christian man to, to reconnect and like the willingness to sever that is, is my brain won't, can't comprehend it And, um,
00:39:15
Speaker
And also the irony of like Jesus was like the coolest motherfucker and like would be like, you know, it is so mind blowing. Jesus was like, i would love to be more Christlike. I mean, I'm i'm a Jew.
00:39:32
Speaker
and and And yet the whole, all the, in the name of, you know, all the violence and the and the judgment and the, it's like the most not Christlike. So it's, it's all of it is just upsetting.
00:39:45
Speaker
And I'm sorry. Hi. Henry, he left. Oh, I'm good right now. Thank you. we same time at the same time, actually, I'm going to write that time signature down, 39 minutes.
00:40:00
Speaker
At the same time, you know, I get it. Like if I zoom out, I get it. So i' I sit with, because it still comes up. I've done tremor tremendous and this shadow work around my dad and relationships and continuing to date unavailable, emotionally unavailable men, you know, to replicate it and like lot. of So when the waves come up, I just feel them.
00:40:23
Speaker
Sure. And I sometimes let myself say, fuck that guy. And then I back up and I have compassion because here's what I know, Jen, is when he was eight- love that shared your humanness though, instead of like, and then I just breathe and it, you know, instead- Sometimes I literally, I'm just like, fuck that guy. So when he was eight, his father died of a heart attack.
00:40:45
Speaker
He never got over it. He told me he never got over it. He still has a lot of pain about it. No one gets over it. That's- Right. And then that man, my grandpa, Charlie, who I never knew, who died when my dad was eight, his father sent him to the house of Good Shepherd when he was a little boy orphanage because the mom died.
00:41:04
Speaker
I guess that'd be my. So it's just intergenerational. mother Keeps happening around that age with a loss of connection with the father. Wow. And my son's name is Charlie, by the way, by the way you know.
00:41:17
Speaker
I love that name. I have such a deep connection. My grandma had pictures because she loved him. All this stuff from my grandpa Charlie. And I was ever since I was little, I was fascinated. i had nobody else's photo in my bedroom as a child except for my grandpa Charlie. like I just, you know, I'm with you. Like I lost a friendship when I left my marriage and with Henry and and I wrote about it in the book and everything. And like, I have compassion. It doesn't mean i understand, but I can have compassion.
00:41:46
Speaker
And some days, you know, i get angry and and I'm able to come back. Well, you know what I mean? I'm able to come back to acceptance because it is what is so. But it doesn't mean I don't feel sad or or have the feelings or, you know, and and I think that's the most important part.
00:42:04
Speaker
And also it's not being immobilized. So if you stayed stuck in fuck that guy, that's different. That's bitterness. You're stuck in it. But when you have it and and it's able to move through you, that's a whole different thing. Yeah.
00:42:20
Speaker
I'm feeling really pulled to ask you if you would read us some section of your book. Of course. A paragraph, a page, however, like just something that you feel like sure would really be nice for us to hear or beneficial.
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i'm I'm so, so proud of this book. and And I stayed so true to my voice. I mean, I thought I was going to be a poet, you know, when I was at NYU. Like really, an academia, very literary.
00:42:45
Speaker
And before senior year, I took a semester off, which is still going on. So I became an accidental college dropout. And I got a summer job that lasted 14 years at the Nugent Cafe. Yeah.
00:42:57
Speaker
So I didn't think I got the right poems. And there is a poem in every chapter. And that to me is just a beautiful win, personal win, because I didn't think I got to. I was waiting for permission. And the subtitle of the book is Stop Waiting for Permission to Live Your Life.
00:43:11
Speaker
And also, in the very beginning, there's a glossary of terms. of gen terms, which I love. like I did it. you know So I'm going to... um That's brilliant. you know I'm wondering about this.
00:43:23
Speaker
you Your first book, From What I Gather, did really, really well. I mean, the praise and who praises it in writing is you a pretty great list, including Liz Gilbert herself. Yeah, living on workshop we were in the cover of Yoga Journal together. which was shes he She shared, you know this, she shared how confronting it was to write a second book after the Eat, Pray, Love was so successful. Did you have anything similar going into the second book about like my first book, my second book? Yeah.
00:43:51
Speaker
Let's go back about an hour to being in the car and the phone. And I mean, think about the question you're asking me. buts Let's just like revisit in time less than an hour ago when like I was running whatever I was running late and that and and how I was like, you're scary. You know, so what do you think? Yes, it's vulnerable. It's terrifying.
00:44:12
Speaker
ah feel like I want to poop my pants and I'm not drinking. um My son's in London. ah hadn't seen Henry in a month. Yes, exclamation point times one million.
00:44:23
Speaker
Okay, everybody, can we just pause together, listeners? This is in time, out of time, it's always now. Jen has so much on her plate. And Jen, if you don't want to hear this, cover your ears. But we're going to actually just pause for a moment, take a deep breath, and see you surrounded by nourishment in the easy moments, the difficult moments, and the numb moments, and feeling resourced, and people coming out of the woodwork who can to be supportive in ways that are useful and helpful.
00:44:56
Speaker
May it be so. And so it is. Scott, in my little boy's handwriting on my birthday, not this birthday, the one before my latest tattoo is this in Charlie's handwriting. And so it is.
00:45:12
Speaker
And so it is.
00:45:14
Speaker
So wonderful. Thank you.
00:45:21
Speaker
I receive. Thank you. Really, really. And my other one is I got you. And so that's really what you're saying. them And thank you. Um,
00:45:33
Speaker
you know, um, I guess it's called proof of life. So I think I'm going to read that poem in the book.
00:45:42
Speaker
Proof of life.
00:45:45
Speaker
I have nothing to show for it, my friend says like she's dying and some estate agent needs evidence to show she had value. The listing, invisible, the agent, pest, the whole thing, ah scam.
00:45:58
Speaker
Still, she bows in shame, has nothing tangible to prove her worth. I tell her she doesn't need to show shit, but she doesn't buy it. Can you remember how someone you love smells after they're gone?
00:46:13
Speaker
How happy you were that one summer? How pain eventually forgets how bad it hurts? I remind her it's impossible to show what's invisible.
00:46:26
Speaker
When we were young, it was called show and tell, I say to my friend, who wishes she was young more than she wishes she wasn't dying. There's no tell anymore. It's just show and show. Show you're relevant. Show you're deserving. Show you matter.
00:46:42
Speaker
That these commands aren't real is no deterrent to our obedience. No wonder we feel like we're dying. I try and convince her it's a sham. She tries to convince me that unless you can show proof that you matter, you don't.
00:47:00
Speaker
I dump my purse's contents. Guess I don't matter. All I have is this. To show how I matter, I hold up my proof. One expired license, a Lego man, three nickels, dirt from the bottom of my bag that I tell her is holy, lone hearing aid, ah used bandaid, Lexapro, key i thought was lost that wasn't.
00:47:30
Speaker
A key i thought I lost that wasn't. That is a title, a key i lost I thought I lost that wasn't. I mean, for me, that just like hits me in the chest is like the whole journey of waking up and growing up. The key that I thought I lost that wasn't. Stop on that.
00:47:50
Speaker
I'm glad you picked up what I was putting down in my purse. Yeah. and the And the proof of life. I mean, it really, really, it's wild. And I catch myself at times, you know, what do i have to show for it?
00:48:01
Speaker
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And, uh, A lot of us live that way. It's that's just a society. like How many followers you have? Are you relevant? What's your latest book? anddahh What's your currency? And all of it, you know its remembering, remembering, remembering.
00:48:19
Speaker
We are our own proof of life.
Inherent Self-Worth and Creativity
00:48:23
Speaker
Unpack that a little bit more. We are our own proof of life Yeah, there's no proof. There's nothing you can show to prove you're worthy. Nothing. Nothing you can show me.
00:48:32
Speaker
Everything, the magical, wonderful, weird, delicious, delightful things about Scott are invisible. Like, there's nothing. Look, don't don't you love me now? And yet, right, I still, I'm like, whoa, I'm doing it again.
00:48:45
Speaker
Maybe with this book, I'll finally, know, or, you know, or um what you know look at social media, all of it. It's like, see how relevant I am, see how much I matter.
00:48:57
Speaker
And there's nothing that that that you can prove to show that you get to be happy, that that you get to have a life that lights you up.
00:49:08
Speaker
That, oh yes, now you're allowed. Now that you've, um,
00:49:15
Speaker
hit the New York Times bestseller. Now that you found a husband's guy, now that you've had a child, now that whatever it may be. And so um it's remembering that and, you know, that our birthright, I don't care who you are. I do care. But what I mean is I don't care.
00:49:31
Speaker
Your birthright is not stress, is not feeling bad, is not misery, is not shame. I don't care what your inner asshole has told you or outer asshole. It's not. And there's nothing...
00:49:42
Speaker
to prove and there's nothing you can use as proof. You are the proof. Yeah.
00:49:50
Speaker
So what about the application of this to rest and not having to earn rest
00:49:59
Speaker
it's It's a you saying rest rest. Yeah. Well, I talk a lot about that in the book, like especially my partner who just you know went to set. He's you know totally different history, upbringing, all the things. And he has that kind of mentality. A lot of people have like rest must be earned he's working on it. But and that's like such a great big lie. Right.
00:50:19
Speaker
um I struggle for me. I'm like, oh, that's such bullshit. And yet, because I was raised in chaos with a single mom who always had a hustle, there's a really ancient primal belief that I'm always going to have to hustle.
00:50:34
Speaker
I don't get to, um you know, so, um,
00:50:41
Speaker
you get to rest. Like one thing I say a lot is the book was going to be called You Get to Have This. and this meaning whatever your inner a-hole is telling you, you don't get to have, rest, i.e.
00:50:54
Speaker
deep love, i.e. compassion. So, um you know, rest is is rest is where so much of the magic happens, you know, like like how much I thought it wasn't writing the book. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And like in those moments of rest, so much is germinating and marinating and actually...
00:51:14
Speaker
happening and then, or not. And that's also beautiful, but, um, it's not to be underestimated. It's not to be, it doesn't need to be earned. And it it is, it is, it's, it's such a form of nourishment.
00:51:27
Speaker
Um, it's everything.
00:51:32
Speaker
What are your unexpected ways of resting? Pardon? What are your unexpected ways of resting?
00:51:42
Speaker
One of them is, it's going to sound like, and that's weird to say unexpected, and I'll say and ah unexpected because I'm an addict, even to my phone, is not sleeping with my phone next to my head, like putting it in the other room so it's not the first and last thing.
00:51:57
Speaker
And I think that's a really great tool if you can do it. Some people can't. for various reasons, because they're a doctor, because they're a or caretaker, whatever, whatever. um But for me, I say unexpected because like drinking, stopping drinking, and I didn't think I could. So don't believe everything you think.
00:52:14
Speaker
And so that's one unexpected way. um You know, I became a painter as someone who like, constantly was like i'm not an artist and i can't draw a stick figure and it's my medicine it's not exactly rest because i'll stay up all night even but it's uh it it provides my soul my ego my heart with the same sense of rest because it's the one thing i do where i don't talk bad about my i am it's like just play so my my inner asshole gets rest um
00:52:50
Speaker
I feel like Jen, that when we hear many of us here rest, we think laying down and closing the eyes. Yeah. and notice i notice when I said the painting, that's what I'm saying is like, yeah but I'm actually thinking and I'm like, as you're asking, I'm like, yeah, of course, in this particular moment in time is not the time to rest, like right before the book comes out. So it's hard right now to even conceptualize, you know?
00:53:14
Speaker
um But what I do know is like, I got to give myself a break. I think we all do. Like we're just so hard on ourselves. And so when you ask the question, it's sort of one of those reminders like, oh yeah, there's that.
00:53:28
Speaker
Yeah. Well, what about, I mean, in your workshops, do you teach forms of micro rest? Like little, like. Okay. So, so for example, my Italy retreat is, is, um,
00:53:42
Speaker
We pick everyone up in Florence. It's like an hour and a half drive. It's in Siena, about an hour from town. And as time has gone on, and I've done like a bazillion now, I'm i'm a pro at my weird, wacky retreat.
00:53:55
Speaker
I am not interested on like sightseeing and all that. So we do two day trips. And I'm like, if you want to do that, do it on the front and back end. I'm not bringing you here for that. And it's really about the idea of retreat in the true sense. It's about rest whatever that means for you personally.
00:54:13
Speaker
So at the retreat, it's like, it's so gorgeous and no one apologizes. You know, I always say apologize if an apology is called for, but like someone will be like sitting in this little hammock reading and other person's they and everyone's honoring what they want, like what's rest for them.
00:54:31
Speaker
um And in the morning, because the whole retreat is like and nonstop sharing, talking, we do silent mornings. And at first, everyone grimaces and rolls their eyes. And it's, it's, it's, there's two things that people incessantly thank me for. And that is one of them.
00:54:48
Speaker
So that. And the idea of doing less, you know, when I first started like 15 years ago, it was like, oh, my God, I have to give them their money as work and pack the schedule. And now it's like less, less, less, less. la I feel like we all have to learn that one as teachers, that less is more.
00:55:08
Speaker
ah Yeah. And it sounds like a, cli well, it is cliche for a reason, but you got to arrive to it on your own to really get it. And, but, but even the fact of the location of my retreat, because it's, because it's far at first, I was like, oh my God. And, but it's perfect. Cause it really gives you that sense of like retreating. The retreat is a retreat and, and, and and I invite deep rest and it's not like you have to turn off your phone.
00:55:35
Speaker
Great. If you want to great, if you don't, but it's an invitation. to rest in whatever way that feels intuitive. And it might be uncomfortable at first, especially if you're someone who finds your worthiness in being busy or productive.
00:55:53
Speaker
I ask people to go into silence. And this actually, i wasn't sure how I would do it when I gave my first retreat. And I called my teacher friend, Sally Kempton, and she said,
00:56:05
Speaker
So that's what I do always. And people fight it in the beginning and they thank me later. And I say, okay, after the evening program, if there's an evening program or after dinner, silent until lunch.
00:56:17
Speaker
Because I want you to be able to connect. I want you to be able to be with each other. But I experience what I've experienced, which is intimacy does not come from speaking. It's really wonderful.
00:56:31
Speaker
It's really,
Wholeness and Authenticity
00:56:32
Speaker
really wonderful. And it's so...
00:56:36
Speaker
It's so holy. it really is. Yeah. Like it's whole. It's whole.
00:56:43
Speaker
Was that on your inner mind? Mine. It's whole. It's just totally whole. Like oh holy as whole. And I wonder if that's the origin of that word, holy as whole.
00:56:54
Speaker
It is absolutely about about being whole. And like, especially for someone like me who beat myself up and thought I was a bad person, knew I was a bad person. It's like, well, I don't get to be whole.
00:57:06
Speaker
I don't get to rest. And that's bullshit. So has ground been taken? Like, do you feel more and more of the time your innate worthiness just because you exist?
00:57:20
Speaker
Absolutely. Although in this particular moment in time, because... um
00:57:29
Speaker
super vulnerable book, book about to come out, you know, ah all of a sudden I'm like, wait, what happened? How did I, you know? So, and I, and I, it's par for the course. I'm okay with that. I'm like, I get it. It's, it's a very unique, bizarre time, very different than being an actor with it's like, everything's like on you. And also it's, it's not like fiction, you know? So, um,
00:57:53
Speaker
But an answer, yes, absolutely. and And I am proud to say that one of the other things I'm good at, out of basically being good at nothing else, is being utterly myself, whoever's in front of me or whatever audience. And I'm So I don't question why I'm like that or even how I'm like, I just am. And I'm grateful that I'm able to do that and be that way. and And it's interesting how it floors me, how many people are flabbergasted by that. Like, how do you do, it's like, like, it's so phenomenal. And um so I'm grateful. I'm grateful I can model that and that it's not hard for me. And then I'm like comfortable enough. and
00:58:35
Speaker
you know, part of it is like, I accept how, tricky it is not being able to hear and so like i now embrace it and lead with it and like have a humor about it and and and so i'm like i might as well just show up exactly as i am yeah here that's where the magic is for all of us if everything you'd ever written including this new book and everything you'd ever taught was just gone just gone and it's the end of your life
00:59:07
Speaker
whenever that comes, may it be like a hundred years from now, healthy, vital, and fit. And you're going to leave a couple of things to benefit people who are willing to pick them up. What would you leave us?
00:59:22
Speaker
Well,
00:59:28
Speaker
you know, i think about that a lot, like your, your, your legacy, whatever you want to call it. And like,
00:59:35
Speaker
I love the idea. um i used to make these, I used to own, I forgot to pay the bill. Ha Don't be an asshole. Meaning to yourself really. But so whenever anyone saw like that, they'd think of me. So i was a great, I'm the asshole lady. But now I get um anytime someone sees I got you or a video or whatever, they send it to me. And so I'm like, that's amazing. I am associated in their mind with I got you and That's not nothing. That to me is like the the the greatest gift. And I think, wait, that's amazing. that that that's my That's how people so think of me. Like my friend Koa sees hearts everywhere. She takes pictures and she's love embodied.
01:00:14
Speaker
When everyone sees a heart, they send it to her. And i'm like, you understand this? they they You're one in the same with that. and And so I got you in love. And I have a sort of famous quote that I actually have with me right here.
01:00:28
Speaker
because um henry is doing a thing with valerie bertinelli and i brought it for her and it's it wasn't intended for this it was uh i had a breakdown at the newsroom you know after i thought i was going to be a scholar and i was like holding a veggie burger 10 years later um convincing myself i was too old which is the stupid and i said stupid stupidest thing i've ever heard in my life first of all i was like 30, you know, and and you're never too old, but, oh,
Legacy of Love and Humor
01:00:57
Speaker
what have I done? and and I arrived finally at when I got to the end of my life and I asked one final, what have I done?
01:01:06
Speaker
let my answer be, I have done love. And, um, And so, and then, you know, it became like a thing. But what's interesting is it's used at funerals all the time. Now I didn't like make it for that, but I'm very touched by that.
01:01:22
Speaker
But I've revised that now to when I get to the end of the podcast, when I get to the end of my meal. So it's about today. And so it's about doing love. And again, whatever that looks like, it doesn't have to be about a donated money or, you know, it's, it's giving someone my attention. it's, it's It's whatever it is.
01:01:44
Speaker
But ah love I love got you one in the same, like I said, with the connection thing. So it's really that um and also my art and whether that's my my visual art, which I'm very proud of because of the fact that it was something that I quote unquote didn't know how to do and still don't. And I allowed for play or my words, you know, that that's there for perpetuity.
01:02:06
Speaker
Is that the right word? Right? Yeah. and so Yeah. If it's not, we'll we'll make it right. You know what I Make it work. Yeah. I love your artwork. I've been looking, i mean, I'd like to see it in person. I've only seen pictures of it, but like what fascinates me right now about this play of your life is that in one area, you said that you're heavily trafficking in words as a so-called deaf person, you're heavily trafficking in words.
01:02:35
Speaker
And then in this other part of your life, there's no words and it's so rich and fulfilling. I love when people say because it's like, I heard it all. And I'm like, no, I haven't. ah ah You, you narcissist, of course you haven't. But like when someone says something that stops me in my tracks and you said quite a few things, but like, wow, wow. Yeah.
01:02:56
Speaker
And also at first I was, I thought you were like someone who's heavily trafficking in drugs. I was like, no, it's booze. My dad was a drug addict. My poison of a choice was booze, but yeah, heavily trafficking. Yeah. That's, that's a very astute observation.
01:03:12
Speaker
Yeah. And that's why I can get for you how painting is rest. It's active rest, but it's rest. But it's really interesting, Scott. It was, um I call it a who knew. i was 47. And you know those things we tell ourselves. I was not, like I couldn't draw. And on my life, I told myself that probably from what I was told, who knows, as a kid.
01:03:34
Speaker
So the fact that at my son's sixth birthday and I started playing and then I couldn't stop and then I kept going, the fact that I ah allowed myself to discover and play And a great epiphany, another one I had is like when people come over and they're just astounded by my home and Henry's that's just filled with art because I'm you know a maniac and I'm an at addict, you know but it's not that they love it, whether they love it or not isn't the point, it's this, I could never do that.
01:04:07
Speaker
Meaning, oh, I wouldn't be good at it. i don't know how, all the things. And that saddens me because I realize How many ways am i that way? How many ways do we think we're like were're done or we're cooked? like That's just how I am.
01:04:21
Speaker
i wouldn't be, you know, all the things that we don't discover because we decide beforehand that, um nope, not for me. And that I allowed myself to play.
01:04:33
Speaker
Every day it tickles me. Every day. Because ah recognize how it's it's pretty wild, you know? And people will be like, well, how do you know what paint to use? And I go, don't.
01:04:48
Speaker
I use whatever I find. And people think I'm joking. And they're like, look at that. You know, that was texture. And because I don't know what I'm doing in quotes, I don't know if it's good and I don't care. And it has no, it's not my, there's no attachment. And, and, and because i you know, so everything's like, there's a freedom and that is the comment I get the most. There's such a freedom. It's because like, i don't know what I'm doing.
01:05:10
Speaker
So there's these like implicit gifts. And if people would let go of the idea of it has to be a quote unquote perfect, that doesn't exist or get it right. Wow. On the other side of that is like everything.
01:05:28
Speaker
Yeah. I'm just reflecting on our conversation and the things that I walk away with. Of course, I'm going to rewatch it, read the transcript, you know, really be with it. But like right now, what I'm with is love is the most important thing.
01:05:44
Speaker
Go play. the but butba Go play. Uncentive humor. Yes. Yes. And that's it, really. love Love is the whole thing. Love is the whole. I say love is the whole story.
01:05:55
Speaker
Yeah. Love is the whole story. Go play. Yeah. Play, play, play, play. I mean, especially as someone who stopped being a kid. I mean, part I'm always like, that's why I'm so immature now. I mean, really, um there's no pictures of me as a kid. I mean, I, that's it. Eight years old.
01:06:12
Speaker
And Play is so important and and nothing grosses me out more than people that take themselves too seriously. It's like and um it's just like, you know, Wayne Dyer would always say, like, you know, no one gets out alive like he got when my.
01:06:28
Speaker
When my son was born on a lap in the poem I wrote, i was like, it's like he was already in on the joke. It's it's really life's already hard. Let's not make it harder for real. Yeah.
01:06:41
Speaker
What a blessing for your son to come in now when you've already done all this work. I agree, you know, because i was 41 and Of course, sometimes there's a, especially because my dad died at 38, there's a lot that comes up.
01:06:59
Speaker
But there's no part of me that is like, boy, I wish I had him when I was younger because, oh, hell no. um You wouldn't even, like, even though you wouldn't, people wouldn't even recognize me. And I mean nothing physically.
01:07:11
Speaker
Although it translates and when I worked at the newsroom, how much I hated myself, how... Like, I just, there's no way. And so divine timing at 41.
01:07:24
Speaker
And he's hilarious. So look, he can, I don't even care. He can be dumb as a rock. He is so funny and that's everything. I'm kidding. Is his humor because of his timing? Has he got timing or he just like his way of skiing things?
01:07:38
Speaker
So he's got this wit and like, you know, a lot of kids, I've actually never met a child like this. You know, I could say something really dry and deadpan and most kids are so, and he picks up, he doesn't miss a beat.
01:07:49
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, Charlie, who are you? How? And, and like, I would go, what's so, what what's so on his birthday, what's so great so far about being nine? And he's like,
01:08:01
Speaker
I'm funnier. And I'm like, dude, I mean, um,
01:08:08
Speaker
I know this is very random, but like my favorite song, one of my favorite songs is no more. I love you is by Annie Lennox. yeah but And I played a lot. I don't even realize he's paying attention. So he makes me this video. He's in London the other day. He goes, hi, mommy. I love you. So I'm going to sing one of your favorite songs.
01:08:25
Speaker
And I'm like, what's coming? And all of a sudden he goes, No more I love you. I forget the rest. And then he does a dance and then he comes back and he's like, starts singing it again. He goes, no more I love you.
01:08:39
Speaker
He goes, just kidding. So many more I love you. I mean, it's just like, so he's funny. um he his timing, his he And of course, I call myself inappropriate mommy because I let him watch it. And I'm like, oh, my God. and But we'll cover his eyes. You know, I'm like, inappropriate mommy.
01:09:04
Speaker
And so my friend Holt is in the lead of a show right now called The Waterfront on Netflix. And Charlie watched like one episode and then he like walked away. But maybe he was like walking in and out.
01:09:15
Speaker
So we FaceTiming yesterday and he looks at me and he goes, makes this face And he goes, I'm Uncle Holt. like We call him Uncle Holt. And I'm, because Holt's like grimacing. And I was like, okay, that's so funny. And I took a screenshot.
01:09:30
Speaker
And then I was like, do that thing where you like imitate the show. I didn't know he was paying any attention. He, I got to send you the video. I put it on his, he like fully like does like the whole show in like a minute and a half doing all the characters. And I sent it to Holt and he was like, oh my God.
01:09:50
Speaker
And i know he's just got that something, something. um But funny, my dad was the funniest person ever. And it's so important to me and the wit and and it's. um
01:10:07
Speaker
Oh, it and it's fun. It's fun because I can I can I can, ah you know, banter with him. Volley. yeah Yesterday i said to Henry Lobby, he's like, it's Volley. I can volley with him and he's, he just turned nine.
01:10:20
Speaker
So it's pretty wild, you know? Well, he's picked up your, your capacity for noticing everything. So he's got that observational humor.
01:10:33
Speaker
It's ah so observational humor. You know, it's interesting you say that because my friend um MJ, who is a um CODA children of deaf adults, She, you know, it's been around us and she goes, Charlie is such a coda because there's a way that they pay attention because he's used to, for example, he knows he can, he knows I have to read lips.
01:10:56
Speaker
So he won't talk to me unless I'm looking at him. You know, there's all these things like that she clocked that I didn't realize. And a lot of that is having me as a mom because of my deafness and the other things has informed his way of being. And some of it he just came in with.
01:11:15
Speaker
It's all him. you know And my dead dad had something to do with it. Come on. right Well, it's going to be fun to see what what what he brings out in life, you know where he goes, what he gets up to. i mean Probably like you, he'll be a polymath.
01:11:30
Speaker
A what? polymath, like Elena, polymath or polymat. and don't know if it's polymat. Well, I mean, first like math gives me anxiety and I like to, I was, it's being good at more than one thing. And then heard poly and I was like, whoa, I got just like so confused in my brain of what you were saying.
01:11:48
Speaker
i just saw this and heard like sex parties and like geometry. I'm like, what's Scott saying? Well,
01:11:57
Speaker
why my friend and i'm sort of like ah such a prude like i love henry and i'm just like i never want to like see with anyone else or even think about we're both the same and and not in a jealous way we're just like we're good and my friend is just like like into all this stuff and so i'm not judgy at all quite the opposite i i like tells me every detail i'm like i don't want it in any universe but tell me at all and she tells me the weirdest what like sex stories and i'm just like
01:12:29
Speaker
Tell me more. Also, ew, tell me more. you know but um So I thought you were going there. Okay, I don't know what polymaths or math is. Polymath is somebody who is he was good at many things.
01:12:43
Speaker
Just think about Elena. Elena Brower, you know she's a millionaire in doTERRA. She's an extraordinary yoga teacher. She's an extraordinary poet, extraordinary author, extraordinary painter.
01:12:54
Speaker
I mean, she can cook, she can do interior design, blah, blah, blah. She has so many things. And that sounds like your kid. Yeah, I know. It's pretty wild. You want to hate her and you can't.
01:13:06
Speaker
How? She's so nice. I'm kidding. You know that kind of that that. No, I do. I do. I do. I do. So incredible. You're like, eh. And you're they're so lovely. People that remind me of that are an invitation to wake the F up that all the powers of creation are in each of us in seed form.
01:13:30
Speaker
My first book, um oh I talk about it still. ah do this thing, you know um it's about busting out of the just a box, the just a box, G-U-S-T-A, because ah you know a lot of people, a lot of moms I know, I'm just a mom.
01:13:44
Speaker
And so nothing, nothing aggravates me more. And when I feel it too, of like that, just there's no box and we have to remember that. And so what you're saying is, and especially when someone models that it's such a beautiful reminder, there ain't no box.
01:13:59
Speaker
You're not just anything. You are the box. And the box is as wide as the universe. Yep. Containing everything. Yep. Containing everything.
01:14:11
Speaker
Well, I'm feeling this is a really beautiful natural ending point for our first conversation, our first official conversation, big conversation. okay So official. So official, so serious, so serious.
01:14:23
Speaker
And I'd like to invite us all into just to be quiet and just to be together. So if you want and you've got a mirror near you, you can be with yourself in the eyes. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or a video, you can be with Jen and I in the eyes.
01:14:39
Speaker
Just be, soften the hands, soften the feet, soften the breath.
01:14:59
Speaker
Loving the episode? Click to follow, like, and share it as widely as possible. Want to go deeper with the choice to grow? Explore the show notes. You'll find links there for going deeper with our guests, as well as how to work with me in the work of waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and showing up.
01:15:20
Speaker
Thanks for listening. Can't wait to join you in the next episode.