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Nicole J. Georges
177 Plays6 years ago
I have been lucky to have so many wonderful artists join me in these early episodes, including Nicole J. Georges - a deeply funny and wise soul.
Here is more about Nicole -
Nicole J. Georges is a writer, illustrator, podcaster & professor from Portland, OR.
Her Lambda Award winning graphic memoir, Calling Dr. Laura, was called “engrossing, lovable, smart and ultimately poignant” by Rachel Maddow, and “disarming and haunting, hip and sweet, all at once” by Alison Bechdel, author of Fun Home. 'Allô, dr Laura?' was an Official Selection at the Angoulême International Comics Festival.
Nicole’s latest book, Fetch: How a Bad Dog Brought Me Home, is the recipient of 2 Oregon Book Awards, and a Lambda nomination for best Graphic Novel. It received starred reviews from Publisher’s Weekly and the Library Journal, and was voted a 2018 “Great Graphic Novel for Teens” by ALA. “Nicole Georges makes my favorite art about love and vulnerability”. -Jill Soloway
Nicole won the Sunburst Award for Excellence in Arts Education in 2012. She was the 2013 Fellow at the Center for Cartoon Studies, the 2015/16 Donaldson Writer in Residence at the College of William and Mary, and currently teaches at California College for the Art’s MFA in Comics Program.
She has been publishing her own zines and comics for 20 years, and has toured the country extensively, including two appearances on Michelle Tea’s Sister Spit tour.
Nicole currently splits her time between Portland and Los Angeles with her chomeranian best friend, Ponyo Georges. She is the host of the podcast, Sagittarian Matters.
www.nicolejgeorges.com
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Ken Valente. Editor and producer, Peter Howard.
True Crime and Podcasting
00:00:13
Speaker
Yeah, it does sound a lot better and um...
00:00:17
Speaker
I've, I've listened to too many podcasts that are about serial killers lately. So that just kind of threw me, threw me a drift.
Creative Process and Sharing
00:00:24
Speaker
And, um, but maybe it is that sound I got, I'm gonna just launch right into questions. Okay. Um, yeah. So, um, uh, Nicole, first, uh, first thing I wanted to ask you about is, is really seeing, uh, when watching your creative process.
00:00:41
Speaker
on your Patreon. Is that how it's pronounced? Patreon? Yeah, I got Patreon. Patreon. Yeah, maybe I made it a little more inflected. But on an Instagram, it seems like you're I'm very been very fascinated watching it because it seems like you're kind of like documenting the world around you and like processing it as it happens.
00:01:05
Speaker
Is that kind of, do you have long stretches where you interact with the world like that way, as far as what you're experiencing that you're just drawing through what it is that you're seeing?
Art as Reflection and Documentation
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I've just, I've always been a diarist and I've, I've always had a pretty bad memory. So I've wanted to, you know, kind of, kind of take things down.
00:01:28
Speaker
um, via drawings, via writing. And then, you know, I think probably Instagram is a little bit of like a lazy, lazy man's version of that. You know, like when I'm taking a video of something and posting it online, I'm like, Oh God, I should be drawing this. Like the real art in it for me would be if I was drawing this thing. But sometimes it's just in that moment, it's a very easy shortcut. Um, but yeah, I do, I do think I, I kind of process the world through
00:01:56
Speaker
I don't know. You know, I feel like the artist's job in some way is to reflect back and kind of digest and reflect back things that are going on in the world. And so in a small way, that's what I'm doing on Patreon and Instagram. Yeah. Do you feel you, uh, when you're doing that, is it like, do you just seek out to do that and you know, set that time aside or is, do you have to do it almost like breathing? Like that's how you're going to,
00:02:24
Speaker
You know, I do. It's just kind of like breathing. I just do it. I do it all the time anyway. And then it's just a matter of, you know, so my Patreon page is, you know, just full of diary comics and stuff. And so it's just a matter of me then remembering to document those those drawings or document those diaries or those pieces of art that I made about things and posting them on there. I don't know if I'd necessarily set time aside.
Artistic Projects and Collaborations
00:02:50
Speaker
I mean, there's definitely times when I'm like, oh,
00:02:53
Speaker
Ponyo, the thing that we are doing right now seems like something I cannot keep. It seems like something I would like to share with the world. So I need to, you know, like yesterday we were on a walk and Ponyo has her cone collar on and the flower shop by my house had like a Jeep full of flowers. And I was like, Oh my God, you have to sit in this. Like I can't, I can't keep it to myself.
00:03:16
Speaker
A lot of costumes for Ponyo, and I know it comes from Ponyo and also from you, but I've seen tons of costumes and sunglasses as well. Oh yeah, and you know, and someday an eye patch. Someday when her bad eyeball has bitten the dust, she'll have an eye patch. So I did have a question here to ask about Ponyo, but I've already done that.
00:03:45
Speaker
So for you, are you working on any projects, you know, right, right now, or is you just kind of, you know, dabbling here and there? I mean, do you have a major project that you're working on? Yeah, I have a few things, you know, that the hard part about where I'm at right now is that I, you know, sell books to publishers and then get it advanced. And then that is
00:04:08
Speaker
the thing that launches me to be like, OK, this is the next big project I'm going to do. So the but like the book proposal process has to be a little bit private so that the book course. Yeah. So the book is like special. But so the books I'm working on right now and I'm kind of pitching are I'm working on a book about gender for kids with gender theorist Judith Butler.
00:04:32
Speaker
and a child psychologist named Ken Corbett. We're going around the country interviewing kids about gender and we're going to make a fully illustrated book for ages, you know, I think like 12 to 14. And then I am working on another graphic novel. I'm working on another graphic novel, graphic memoir coming out called My Straight Year from Venus to Mars and Back Again. That's going to be
00:04:57
Speaker
fully illustrated, I think it will break form a little bit, it will have parts that are fully, you know, fully comics, some parts that are a little bit more like prose with illustrations, now will be a full length book. So I'm working on
Artistic Identity and Storytelling
00:05:10
Speaker
those things. And then in the meantime, I'm just picking up projects, like I did some comics for Mad Magazine, I did some things for the nib, I might do some things for the believer. You know, I'm keeping busy. Yeah. And
00:05:24
Speaker
One of the things I've seen is kind of like you look to, I'm always following closely what you're doing. And part of the reason is, you know, when I read Calling Dr. Laura and Fetch, you know, I've been attracted to the kind of like super personal aspects of, well, be graphic memoir in general or, you know, graphic novels.
00:05:47
Speaker
And those are always my those are always my favorite because they draw me in. It's almost like listening to music. Like, how did you get through this? Like, how did you experience this trauma? Like, how did you move beyond that? Or when you got stuck, how you got unstuck? And it's just seeing that kind of level of kind of like personal part in the art. That's always what I've been attracted to because it for me has
00:06:12
Speaker
a lot of meaning to me and helps me in my creative process as well. Do you find that because you are so personal like in your work that that, did you ever want to create distance from that and to try things that are more in fiction or is it, you know, you see yourself as like, this is who I am as a person and this is what I'm putting into my art?
00:06:43
Speaker
Well, you know, I think no matter what I'm publishing privately, personally, I will always metabolize trauma or my experiences through art, you know, through diary comics, through drawing, through writing. That's just, you know, as an artist, that's just how I process the world. My dog, my dog friend strutting around.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, as an artist, such as how I'm always going to process the world. So it's just a matter of whether or not I'm publishing it. And certainly there was a time, you know, I've been doing diary comics and publishing them for at least 20 years, you know, over 20 years. So there's definitely a point when I started to feel self-conscious, you know, when the people around me, I would like walk into a room and people I didn't know were like, Oh, I know all about you. I know all about your life. And it just started to make me feel uncomfortable or self-conscious. And so,
00:07:37
Speaker
I started kind of limiting the things that I would put out there or the timeframe. So, you know, like I didn't, I no longer wanted to like write about people I was dating as I was dating them. Um, you know, there were certain parts of my life that I wanted to keep to myself or at least keep on hold, keep on ice for like five years or something until they were no longer relevant or it didn't feel like I was broadcasting what I was actually doing with my personal life.
00:08:03
Speaker
Right, because it's almost in live time right there and you don't necessarily need to have a live time documentation of what you're working through, I'd imagine. Right. But I mean, you know, now the thing is, is that, you know, being in a different phase of my art. So, you know, when I started, I was a teenager. And so it was just like whatever was going on, that's what I was publishing about.
Narrative Control and Fiction vs Non-fiction
00:08:24
Speaker
And now, you know, that I'm doing these longer book projects, the projects themselves take me years.
00:08:29
Speaker
And generally, I'm writing or talking about things that have happened a couple years in the past. And so it gives me a good filter and it gives me more of an ability to form a story arc around experiences that actually happened. Because, you know, like when you can step back from something, you have a year or two of space, you can look back and see like, OK, what was the narrative arc or what was the lesson I needed to learn from this thing or, you know, what
00:08:52
Speaker
What were the events that led up to kind of the climax of this thing that felt really intense? And then what happened afterwards? And so it is kind of beneficial, I think, to be able to sit back. I think it serves the art better than people, readers having to kind of puzzle through and put things together on their own. Yeah, it's that author's distance. And to be able to create the narrative, you know, when you write, you have the absolute control of
00:09:17
Speaker
you know, this is the beginning because this is how I'm presenting it to you. This is the middle and kind of the the culmination. So having control over that as an author, I and when I've when I've written, I've seen that being so important and it is a power. It's I mean, everybody I think needs to use it as properly as you know, they can in telling the story. But I'm sure that separation is is is really needed.
00:09:47
Speaker
But you know, as far as fiction, I do have I have a pet project called Sloth Boss that is more of a kids or all ages story about a sloth and his friends who live in the jungle.
Animals and Veganism in Art
00:09:59
Speaker
And, you know, of course, every character is going to be semi autobiographical, but that's kind of my fiction, my fiction thing. But otherwise, I'm not I just fiction doesn't pop into my head necessarily. Right. Maybe for kids, maybe I could do fiction for kids, but for adults.
00:10:16
Speaker
I mostly am just a creative nonfiction or autobiographer. Well, and it's the, all those cute animals, I mean, appeal to both, you know, kids and adults. And, um, you know, I see the role of animals in your work. Um, and I've always appreciated your, you know, um, you know, mentioning that you're vegan in the, in the role of animals have been vegan for about 24 years. And yeah, yeah. Um, actually more than half my life.
00:10:45
Speaker
Um, so, um, I, I, I just love your depictions. You love your connection to other beings. And, um, when, and I know this is in your stories, but, um, can you tell me about like the moment where you realize what, you know, in the animal or the animals in your life, we're doing for you and helping you get through where you said like, this is okay. Like this is.
00:11:14
Speaker
This is a companion of mine and really, you know, had that realization at that moment and allowed yourself that help. Hmm. I mean, you know, it's, it's hard because animals were always just my actual friends or my actual playmates, you know, just like, so I don't, I don't know if I, I don't know if there was a, a moment of separation from that.
00:11:42
Speaker
because, you know, as a kid, animals, I think I was closer with my animals than I was with other kids. And so then when I saw them reflected in cartoons or in stories and, you know, like when you're reading Charlotte's Web or something in the end of the story, it's like, oh my God, you don't want anyone to eat Wilbur. So, you know, that kind of like the animal activism and like their place in my life was always just kind of woven into the fabric of my life. With my dog, Beja, who I wrote about in Fetch,
00:12:12
Speaker
I always knew how important she was in my life and, you know, how dedicated I was to her. But I think that I, by writing the book, I was able to see more just about how she grew me up. I got to really, you know, think about how changing my life to keep this poorly behaved dog really, really changed everything. You know, it forced me to move out of my parents' house.
00:12:37
Speaker
Um, it forced me to always be the person in charge of different homes so that we wouldn't get evicted for her barking at people or peeing on stuff. Right. And yeah.
00:12:47
Speaker
Well, I just noticed like that.
Embracing Imperfection in Art
00:12:50
Speaker
I remember one moment in fetch where just the kind of radical departure where you just Accepted you you're looking at an animal and you're like look you're not gonna be perfect as a matter of fact Many people might say like you shouldn't be here You shouldn't be around or you should be put away or anything like that but you were just this kind of radical acceptance that was I think was such a
00:13:13
Speaker
a powerful act where you're like, hey, like I'm imperfect and you're imperfect. Like, I think you're okay. And, you know, I think that was such a radical move and it was very striking in that work. It was beautiful. Oh, thanks. I mean, I think, I think, you know, the blessing and the curse of growing up punk or growing up
00:13:34
Speaker
with no standards is that, you know, I didn't, I didn't know better. Like if I was now choosing a dog at the shelter, I would choose a dog that I think would make my life easier or, you know, that would, that would, that would be an easy dog to have that would in fact make my life enriched. But at the time I just was like, Oh my God, this is the dog. I was like, it doesn't matter what her behavior is going to be. I'm not going to listen to anybody. This is just the dog that I need right now because I was a teenager.
00:14:05
Speaker
And so, you know, by the time we got to that point, I just was like, yeah, well, of course. She's like a family member. She is kind of like the baby I had in high school. Yeah. And that's, that's, um, your connection to like your, the animals over time and just saying that there wasn't a particular moment is really a fascinating answer to the question, right? I mean, it's been part of your, part of your experience and part of your acceptance and, um,
00:14:32
Speaker
But I'm just, you know, in my reading and I'm sure some other folks, it's still just a striking way, you know, given everybody's different experience about that. Still, that was just super powerful for me, and I I love that connection. So part of this part of this, what I'm exploring with the podcast itself is the creative process.
00:15:02
Speaker
but also why is there something rather than nothing,
Purpose and Impact of Art
00:15:07
Speaker
which is a philosophical question. It's not kind of one, it is a philosophical question. It has to do with creative acts. I have a couple of questions that I really just want to ask you as far as just your answer to these questions. The first one is,
00:15:31
Speaker
Um, that, that you create, uh, why do you create anything? Gosh. Um, I mean, I think, you know, being an artist, I just think that you.
00:15:47
Speaker
you just are an artist, whether or not you are a published artist or a successful artist, you just are an artist. It's kind of a, it's a calling. It's like being a nun or so, you know, it's just like a way that you, it's something you've devoted, that it's a devotional thing and it's a way of emotionally processing the world and it is a thing. So there's that. I mean, I don't know if there is, you know, some level of immortality to it of just wanting to make a mark for me,
00:16:15
Speaker
you know, when I was growing up, I was in my family life, it was, you know, it was kind of like the, the things that were happening, I was told to kind of pretend like they weren't happening. And so for me, it was like keeping a record of things that I knew to be true. So later, you know, if my mom or somebody tried to say, no, it didn't happen that way. I could look back at the record. I was keeping the record of something. And so I could not feel crazy by looking at it and make this was true.
00:16:42
Speaker
Um, you know, in another, in another way, I feel like I do it to pay, pay, pay it forward because when I was a teenager reading stories by queer people, people of color, people of different sizes, people with different, you know, mental health situations, um, people who had been abused who were speaking out about things, people that had survived something and were coming out speaking on the other side was really valuable and life saving to me. And so I,
00:17:10
Speaker
You know, if I can be that for anybody, I would like to pay that forward. Yeah. And my, uh, my experience when I started, um, painting for the first time in my life, um, it was a little over a year ago and it was that powerful. Like I needed to do it. Like all of a sudden I was doing something and.
00:17:34
Speaker
I didn't have the language anymore. I'd always worked with words and trying to construct things and writing being very powerful. And I said, well, none of my words are useful with some of the things I was dealing with. Um, so then it was just paint. And then I'm like, wow, I didn't know you could do this. I didn't realize there was permission to do this. And I looked around and you know, I saw a lot of artists and everybody that was influencing me. It was just like, I think these people are just,
00:18:00
Speaker
just doing it. It's like they've already given themselves permission a long time ago to to to create and I think that's an infectious and I think it's partially infectious and kind of the way you describe of why you even do it. Yeah, it's just you know, it's it's okay. It doesn't even have to be anything. It can just be for fun. It can just be for play or it can just be to express something you need to express. It doesn't necessarily need to do anything else than that. It's kind of
00:18:29
Speaker
You know, Linda Berry, I'm such a huge fan of hers and I, you know, go to her workshops and learn underneath her. And she says, you know, your art is, your art's kind of like, it's like your liver. You know, it's just, it's a necessary vital
00:18:47
Speaker
Oregon. It's a necessary vital function and you wouldn't, you know, take out your liver and be like, ew, this is ugly. You know, what an ugly liver. You just know, you just need it. It doesn't matter if it's ugly or not. It doesn't matter if it's perfect looking or not. It just is something that you need to process the world and to put things through. Yeah. Linda Barry is an American treasure. I saw her years ago and I really didn't know her stuff. I ended up somehow at a professional development seminar.
00:19:17
Speaker
at a college in Madison, Wisconsin. I do union work, so there was some excuse for me to be there. I forget what it was, but she was presenting and I'm like, well, now this is good professional development for teachers, like a half day of Linda Barry.
Inspiration and Amplifying Voices
00:19:33
Speaker
And I don't know who was responsible for it, but it was a beautiful, subversive and wonderful learning experience. That's wonderful.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah, I still don't know how it happened. I should figure it out. But yeah, that's how I first got exposed to her work. And I've seen you mention her a few times. She's just got an amazing, amazing energy. So one of the things that you were talking about as far as other people and how they connect to artists, and I was talking about that as well, but in what I described as some of the infectious aspects of seeing people create
00:20:12
Speaker
Do you think there's any duty if you're an artist to create other artists or you think it's just a highly personal thing and you just forge ahead? So is there a duty for artists to help create other artists? Well, I don't know. Like I said, I think that people just are artists already and I feel like it's
00:20:40
Speaker
Part of my, you know, I have a mission statement. You know, one of my mission statements aside from helping animals is to help amplify other people's voices, especially marginalized voices to impact social change and to empower people through sharing the tools of self-expression. And so, you know, I'm here not to hoard resources, not to hoard the things I've learned, but to share the things I've learned. Cause I am, you know, I'm a self-taught artist and
00:21:10
Speaker
There's no reason why anyone else needs to learn things like a caveman like I did. If I have the information and I can share those tools with them, I feel happy to do so. And people can decide to pick that up or not or seek that out or not. I can help other artists make their lives easier in some way or help share professional things I know. But I do think that people just are artists. And like you were saying, there's something to it about giving themselves permission to just be that or accept that.
Origin of Creative Ideas
00:21:41
Speaker
And so that leads to the question that I'll ask you this way is, why is there something rather than nothing? And you could apply it to your work as an artist. When you create something that's new, that hadn't been created before, and you've created it, does that come from nothing? Is that creative act all yours?
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, I don't know if I have some kind of higher power working through me or something, but yeah, I just think it just, it is just, it's from me. It's from the world around me. It's from the things that influence me, you know, that I'm kind of regurgitating, but yeah. I got one more question. Sure.
00:22:39
Speaker
What is art? What is art? I mean, a lot of things can be art. Gosh, let's see. I honestly think art is. Art is any way. That you are choosing to the one is choosing to. Kind of express their
00:23:09
Speaker
emotional interior, making making the I feel like I read somebody say it's making the invisible visible. So you know, that could be through writing that could be through dance, song, food, comedy, comics, whatever, it's just making the invisible visible, kind of taking the world putting it through your own personal processor and then finding a way to put that forward.
Art in Community and Personal Experience
00:23:34
Speaker
And you can be putting that forward just for yourself, just for your friends, just for your family, or you can be putting it forward for, you know, the population at large. It's so helpful. I was, uh, mentioned to you, I went to a trapeze aerial show last night, not something that I've ever done. And I honestly felt like this is like the Portland experience in the sense that like the entire crowd in these outrageously strong.
00:24:03
Speaker
and talented art, like aerial artists, men and women, mostly women, but some guys. And I'm watching this like display and I'm like, this is one of the things I really like about Portland, you know, you'll see in cities where creativity is treasured or encouraged, is that like, I think everybody there was having fun, you know, like everybody in the crowd for an hour and a half. And I think
00:24:32
Speaker
at another point in my life, I would have just missed all that, all that creativity, all that fun. Everybody just laughing and saying, look at how silly that we are. And it was such a freeing experience. And I was just thinking about the artistry of what they were doing and how it was so ephemeral and it moves so quickly and you almost couldn't capture it. And I was like, this is the type of experience and this is why I like to be around this area and I like to be around artists because it's
00:25:02
Speaker
It's very helpful for me in a very selfish way. Yeah, I just yeah, I've never worse for having gone to experience art, especially things that are unfamiliar to me. Well, I'm going to let you go Nicole. Thank you so much for your time and I hope Ponyo. Does well in the day to day for you.
00:25:32
Speaker
Um, he's got a strong spirit. So I think, uh, Ponyo is going to strive towards the best outcome no matter what. So, Oh, thank you. You know what? No matter, no matter if Ponyo has one eye, two eyes, zero eyes, Ponyo will, Ponyo will be happy to be here and we'll be okay. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I hope you have a great day. And again, Nicole, thank you so much for spending time with me. Oh my gosh. Thank you for asking. All right. Have a great day. You too. Bye. Bye.
00:26:06
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing.