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Back in the Saddle Again
160 Plays1 month ago
In the Season 2 premiere of "Online Education Across the Atlantic," hosts Phil, Morgan, and Neil take you on a tour of the latest educational technology conferences. We explore key takeaways from CanvasConnect in Barcelona, where lifelong learning and practical course organization dominated the sessions, and the D2L Connections event in Amsterdam, highlighting the buzz around AI-driven tools like Lumi and H5P integration.
Morgan shares experiences from the Moodle Moot in Mexico, unpacking the challenges and future directions for Moodle, while Phil reports on the vendor partnerships and AI discussions at Educause in San Antonio, Texas. With increased attendance and a revamped exhibit hall layout, Educause is reviving itself for connecting educators with technology partners. Tune in for an in-depth look at how these conferences are shaping the future of online education and what it means for institutions across the globe.
00:00 Neil spoke at last year's smaller conference in Europe.
05:08 Comparing D2L's learning focus and Instructure's vision.
07:45 H5P and Lumi positively viewed, but underused.
11:07 Lifelong learning tension: transformational vs practical focus.
14:42 Education hype can disconnect from universities' realities.
17:38 Enjoyed European-style breakfast with Yucatan pork.
21:39 Leadership transition creates balance challenge for direction.
24:22 Moodle crucial for higher education and LMS.
29:53 Facilitated Educause workshop, changing partnerships perspective.
33:17 Strategic planning impacts edtech vendor outlook.
35:20 Organize AI, clean data for accurate insights.
40:07 Initial moral panic impeded serious AI discussions.
41:50 Space-themed hotel excited 8-year-old.
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Transcript
Season Two Premiere: One-Hit Wonder or More Stars?
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to online education across the Atlantic. This is the season two premiere where we find out if we were one hit wonders or if we're going to be making it into getting new guest stars.
The Reunited Hosts and the 'Difficult Second Album'
00:00:23
Speaker
So it's great to see Morgan. I haven't seen you for an hour, but Neil, breaks great. Great to see you again, too. Good to see you too. This is our difficult second album, isn't it, really?
00:00:35
Speaker
Yes, yeah. This is where the divisions between us start to come out. This is where the autistic differences come in. It's organ and fill 78. If we follow the Adele naming convention.
00:00:48
Speaker
Yes. So it's great to see you guys
Season Changes: Distribution Over Content
00:00:51
Speaker
again. And we are going to be making some differences this year in terms of mostly in terms of distribution, not so much in terms of how we do the conversation. But it's great to see everybody again, season two getting kicked off. Obviously, our news in the US is dominated by the US election.
Avoiding Politics: Focus on EdTech Conferences
00:01:10
Speaker
i I hesitate to even ask what the main news items are going on in the UK, but we're going to deliberately stay away from that topic for our initial thing, because I know all of us, all three of us have actually been to some interesting EdTech conferences lately and just sort of wanted to use that as an opportunity to talk about what we saw, but also what we learned from a meta standpoint. You know, what does it say about the market? Are you seeing anything different?
00:01:37
Speaker
but if you Are you guys comfortable to avoid election talk right now or whatever the current UK politics are? Absolutely. is It's not nothing positive over here. to add so Yeah, that's fine. Okay. Well, this is a good move then.
Neil's Conference Experiences: Canvas Connect and D2L
00:01:55
Speaker
All right, so avoiding the news, um let's actually start out with, let's see, ah you've been to two, Neil, recently. I believe you've been to Canvas or Instructures Conference and D12s. Are those the two you've been to recently?
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. I was at Canvas Connect, which was in Barcelona a few weeks back. And then I think it was last week or the week before I was in Amsterdam for D2L Connections. I should know that, but it's it's been a bit like that recently. But yeah. I know it ah often at our point of of career or something, the location doesn't matter. But man,
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I like how casually he says it too. like oh Oh, yeah, I just went to Barcelona then Amsterdam. I mean, gosh, it was such a chore, but, you know, you've got to do these things for work, haven't you? Yeah. So tell us about them. Start with the Canvas event. And part of the question is, have you been to one of these before?
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, i i I have actually. So there was one, I actually spoke at, I did the keynote at the last one, which was in Liverpool in November last year. um I'm not sure it was quite an equivalent. I think it might have been a smaller a smaller kind of scale in terms of scope of audience, but I don't know that there was necessarily a one that was equivalent last year.
D2L vs. Instructure: Market Sentiment
00:03:20
Speaker
but yeah this was a kind of european um canvas connect i know that they've kind of been running those events throughout the world in the past you know period that was it was a good event i mean i guess For both of them, um I suppose what I'd say is obviously I was aware that the the main bigger conferences had happened and so in that sense it didn't feel as though these were events where you were going to get any big new announcements but it was more that you know maybe some of the things that were covered at the big the big kind of main conferences in North America were just kind of going to be revisited
00:04:00
Speaker
in ah in a kind of european sort of an off off broadway kind of conference is what you're saying or sorry off off west end it might be more appropriate yeah yeah that's a good way of putting it um yeah so i mean uh i think it's interesting i i guess i can kind of talk to both of them uh individually but i guess it's interesting to actually compare the two so i think i think in in the in the uk context you know, um ah probably this is mirrored in the in North America as well, but D2L and Instructure are the kind of, you know, they they have the momentum in terms of the market. They're the companies that, you know, have probably the the good vibe around them in terms of the market. that they're They're the ones that have kind of been growing business more than more than the others. And I think that was kind of just reflected in the feel behind the companies and the people that were attending. I think that was, I didn't really get pick up much in terms of
00:05:00
Speaker
um Grumbling that you sometimes get when there's a more longer standing ah Relationship with kind of companies, I guess but I just it I think it was just interesting for me to to compare the two companies in terms of kind of messaging and I think D2L felt very strongly around teaching and learning. Instructure felt, and this is not indicative of the whole program, but felt more focused on this kind of forward-looking future of education, bigger picture kind of vision. um So that that was an interesting comparison of the two.
H5P Integration into D2L: Market Impact
00:05:38
Speaker
um I think in terms of in terms of other things I mean one of the things that I guess was interesting that ah would have kind of moved on from the North America conference is that kind of understanding a bit of how the H5P D2L relationship would be would be working. and And there's still maybe not lots of flesh on the bones around that, but since kind of that conference, H5P has been integrated into kind of and a newly sort of branded creator plus there's more integrations of activity types. And one of the big things that I took away really from D2L Connections was um was the kind of H5P marriage and the way in which
00:06:23
Speaker
You know, that gives that VLE, Brightspace VLE, a kind of slightly different flavor to it in terms of the interactivity. And I think, for me, I think about my career working in universities and online learning and that whole paradigm of you have to draw in this other tool from somewhere else to put into the VLE because the native functionality just doesn't offer you this, any interactivity. And I just think that's a really interesting element of that relationship and how that product might might develop.
00:06:57
Speaker
um So that was interesting to see some more of and to see the way that that's kind of moving forward in terms of it being integrated. I don't think they're quite yet at a stage where we're seeing really strong differentship differentiation between what you get with H5P for another VLE or just independently versus what you get H5P with D2L, but it was interesting to kind of see that side of things.
00:07:26
Speaker
one One question before you talk a little bit more about the Canvas one is besides yourself and especially because you you know, instructional design. So while this seems to be like in your wheelhouse, but like, what was your overall sense of how the message work to the attendees at large, the non celebrities?
00:07:45
Speaker
i I think it's always difficult to say because you always get just a broad constituent at those kinds of conferences. So you get some people who are really concerned with that and instructional design element, and you get some people who's remit. It's not really within their remit, that kind of thing. So I think from sessions where there were a show of hands around two people how many people were using Creator Plus,
00:08:14
Speaker
I didn't get the impression that it was being widely implemented yet, but I think people on the whole, um not just necessarily at this conference, but in general, I think have a lot of positive sentiment towards H5P. So I still think that is it is probably a bit too in in its infancy to kind of know whether that might turn the dial. But I think generally people are positive about the H5P integration, but I don't know that it's kind of gone much deeper than that yet. And I think, although this is a slightly different different thing, I think there's probably similar similar sentiments around Lumi. So I think Lumi, again, is probably a bit too much in its infancy. Well, actually, ah describe Lumi. Not everybody's going to have that memorized. Yeah. Good good point. Good point. So Lumi is D2L's kind of AI, biggest kind of AI product
00:09:12
Speaker
kind of development and it has a few different features so it has things like captioning and things like chat like a virtual assistant but it also has a bunch of generative AI ah features related to teaching and learning so generating quiz questions generating practice activities generating different ideas for discussion topics and assignments so it's their kind of AI, I feel like it's one of those ones that's hard to place in their product suite because it's not and it doesn't feel like an add-on in the same way that Creator Plus is an add-on and it sort of seems to encompass a few different things. I think that's maybe one challenge for them in terms of
00:09:53
Speaker
a customer kind of understanding what Lumi is in in in reference to kind of other add-ons. But that's their, I think that's their biggest sort of AI product announcement to
Lifelong Learning at Canvas: Practical vs. Visionary
00:10:05
Speaker
date and it kind of encompasses a few things that they did announce previously. So I think i I'm keen to see more of how that's implemented and I'm keen to see over time um whether the H5P purchase turns the dial for things like CreatorPlus. I know that you've you guys have said kind of previously around questioning the kind of add-on strategy for D2L but I feel like in the UK
00:10:34
Speaker
if anything's gonna turn the dial on, or if anything's gonna encourage universities to adopt add-ons and having something that's as well regarded as H5P strikes me as a as ah as a really good move, I think, ultimately.
00:10:53
Speaker
and And we can come back to some of the... Well, actually, anything... Describe more of what you saw at the Canvas event as well, and like with the message there, and then we'll look at some Moodle stuff after that. One of the interesting things was around the theme of Lifelong Learning, but I think there was an interesting tension there because lifelong learning I guess is this kind of big future future theme and it tends to be quite kind of transformational in nature in terms of how it's discussed. and But it was interesting there was a session there around lifelong learning, around catalogue and I found that the kind of examples and the institutions that were presenting under that banner were not necessarily presenting
00:11:46
Speaker
in a way that's kind of addressing this big transformational change in the universe. It was more about bringing together kind of courses. It was more kind of dealing with and inherent challenges, it was more practical rather than kind of big picture future facing. So there's an interesting tension there between maybe a company that was kind of presenting this big, you know, the future of education message around lifelong learning and the way that universities were implementing ah maybe a product that's associated with that was more just dealing with and bringing together portfolios of courses and fixing things rather than
00:12:25
Speaker
it being a kind of a forward-looking big picture kind of thing. So there' it yeah, that was that was interesting. I think I mentioned that I felt calm ego wasn't mentioned. that i was I was racking my brain and looking at my notes and I thinking, have have I got this wrong? Was it mentioned that I did it? Did I miss it? And obviously I wasn't in every single session, but the calm ego kind of integration, I don't remember that being mentioned at all, really. Yeah, that was fascinating because it was quite a big part of the this last InstructureCon in the US and I wasn't at the previous one, but it it sounded like a big part of that too.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, it was sort of one of their main announcements the past two, certainly top three or four announcements at the US conference, both of the past, you know, this July and a year ago. So it was interesting for us to see that you said it just wasn't presented over there. Look, it might have been mentioned in sessions that i I didn't attend, but it was certainly not the headline of the sessions that I didn't attend. and And it wasn't on the main stage presentations. No, not that I can and not i can recall them when I checked my notes. i Yeah, I don't think it was mentioned because there was you know it' a lot covered on AI product development. And I think you know the main ones really that I took from ah the different sessions were things like Smart Search, Intelligent Insights. I think there was a lot of ah keenness around ah around that, um things like the discussion summaries and the kind of translation. i took
00:14:00
Speaker
You know, those are probably less um less showy kind of AI enhancements. But yeah, that it was interesting. I have seen um stuff being pushed out from in Instructure since then that's kind of mentioned Carmigo, but it wasn't it wasn't a big feature at the conference at all. When they were talking about the the future of lifelong learning, was there Was there some substance there? Because i yeah from the InstructureCon in July, there was like a talk of the vision, but not really filling in the you know the details and not really connecting Instructure to that as well. Yeah, that's a good question. I think there was a degree of tying Instructure to that.
00:14:48
Speaker
but I mean, you know, there's kind of interesting um aspects like um obviously there's kind of interesting differences in terms of um the kind of products. I think kind of for parchment, there's not that same sense in the UK that in the UK we have UCAS so we have another layer of how you kind of apply to a university so that that was kind of a kind of difference in terms of their strategy around that that flow through kind of K-12 to university and onwards and um and catalog was kind of mentioned in relation to lifelong learning but I think
00:15:28
Speaker
I think in general that that theme is a bit too woolly for me. And I think the the danger when you, and I think I mentioned this in my reflections after the conference, I think the danger when you you get you kind of ride the crest of the latest sort of education wave.
00:15:48
Speaker
is that you kind of get you get too sort of seduced by the hype and such that you you get slightly disconnected from the realities of you know universities. I heard someone say recently that you know universities are like the slow car on the on the highway as as every other car just races past them. And I think that's an important thing to kind of have in your mind when you're developing a product. Because as I mentioned earlier, you know you can talk about life learning as being this really transformative way in which higher education changes.
00:16:24
Speaker
But if people are just using your products to unify a bunch of short courses that they offer to a diverse audience because they haven't done that previously, There's a gap between vision and reality. That's different. And I think we could probably say the same of micro-credentials um as well as lifelong learning. So like of course, it's good to be visionary and look ahead and all that kind of thing. But there's a kind of a tension between between that and the the kind of lived reality of institutions, what they're dealing with in the here and now, which
00:17:01
Speaker
isn't often the the big headline. You know, I kind of think I said in my post, it's kind of that movie announcer voice, you know, the future of education, you know, it's like, that's not the reality sometimes. of you know the Sometimes quite often. Well, let's ah let's take a go across the southern part of the pond or the middle part of the pond, and capture Morgan and your experience in Mexico with Moodle Moot.
Moodle's Transitional Phase: Optimism in Change
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah. no that can we Can I just interrupt? can Can we also just have a rundown of kind of tacos and, you know, yes, like, let's get to the important stuff first. And then I i ate a lot. um And one of the best things was the hotel that I was staying at had more of a European style approach to breakfast. So breakfast was included, and it was substantial. And not only was it breakfast food, I know I'm kind of a person that goes for breakfast food, but they always had yucatan pork and
00:17:59
Speaker
ah kind country to people and things like that. So I have had it every morning for breakfast, which was quite something. It was very hot and sweltery. You know, it wasn't too bad ah in the evenings when I was away from the conference. But during the day, it was very hot and sweltery, but it was beautiful. And it was ah it was great to be there and and and very good. um That being said, I didn't write this, but the whole time I was there and in part I was hanging out with a lot of South Africans.
00:18:31
Speaker
But ah I kept thinking, um when I was in South Africa back in the in the late 80s, early 90s, a phrase that was used often was a quote from ah an Italian communist who had been imprisoned under Mussolini and died in prison. And he had this phrase about, we are living in the interregnum, the old order has died, but the new has not yet been born. And that's what summed up Moodle for me in a way. Oh, all right, jumping right to it.
00:19:00
Speaker
ten You know, like it feels like we're in a, and and and yeah I'm not, I use the word ring them there loosely. I don't mean it to too much on the nose, but <unk> we're we're in an inflection point between Moodle as it was and and a Moodle was going to be. That being said, a lot of the infrastructure for Moodle is being it being built you know in terms of the yeahre redoing some of the ah the core underlying technology and things, which isn't showing up necessarily in a lot of
00:19:32
Speaker
feature improvements but I think it's it's it's building the future and um you know if I was a betting woman I wouldn't want to bet against Maria Shor actually pulling it off so I think it's going to I think it is going to work and I came I came away much more optimistic and and and hopeful about what what the future of Moodle is going to be then than what I went and into the conference believing but you know there's there's lots of struggles because You know, back when i I was involved and worked at universities, I was very much in favor of of renaming the LMS, so not calling it Canvas or Blackboard or whatever, but calling it something else, in part because people get so attached to it. and And amongst those attachments are Moodle members, you know, they get very attached to it, so their capacity for change is going to be tested, you know, as we move to a different kind of thing.
00:20:24
Speaker
um as necessarily needs to be. But you know it was a very positive kind of um conference, but there is that that that sort of tension. and Well, could you describe the tension? I mean, this is a podcast. I feel like you came out provocative and then you pulled back a little bit there. Could you be more descriptive on the on the not just of Cromwell, but you know, the monarchy before and what was gonna happen after Cromwell? Well, you know, before, I think, you know, Moodle was very much tied up with the personality of Martin Dugianus and a set of commitments around openness and and and and those sorts of things. And I think some of those things remain, you know, I think there's a still this commitment for openness
00:21:13
Speaker
in a you know slightly more constrained way. and and you know I mean, for example, for the the the United Nations sustainability goals, you know those used to be a big feature. They're a much smaller feature now. It's much more focused on education. So there's there there's a consistency of of commitment, but it's it's more focused and it's it's more you know, it's narrower. And you know, you had Martin, and and Martin is still very much around every time I looked up Martin was there. um You know, but we've got a new CEO, we've got a new head of product, or she's been around for a couple of years and has been doing great stuff.
00:21:54
Speaker
But you know there's the that sort of tension about, where are we going to go? you know Which way is it is it going going forward? So you know I believe when I wrote about it, I i had a guy on ah ah on a tightrope. And it's it's that it's like trying to figure out that balance of of um of going forward. But it's definitely a shift. um That being said, you know there are lots of things that are similar. But you know I think it's going to be a challenge for Scott Andenberg to pull off there because he's got to move, move the company in a new direction. And the old order is still there. You know, that's what I was, that, that was that Grumsey reference. The old order has died, but the, but it's still there. yeah And he, not just him, but in particular, the new CEO, but also are they willing to deliberately, you know, break some eggs?
00:22:49
Speaker
in making a change while the old order is still there. Maybe I'm mixing metaphors there. And and that is a big question. I mean, you you sort of hit the nail on the head. My sense was that he's he was trying at the conference to make everybody feel OK. Like, hey, I i i understand what ki yeah what attracted you to Moodle. what is What is vibrant about this community? And I want to keep that. you know Like, he spent a lot of the a lot of the keynote establishing his own bona fides as somebody who's worked for a long time in education. He's actually studying, his wife's studying, you know their they're actually students and and and things like that. So trying to make everybody feel okay. And I think at a certain point, you you need to break the eggs and you can't leave it too long.
00:23:41
Speaker
that This almost kind of reminds me of of a sort of a old labor, new laboring British politics. It's kind of that side of things. And I mean, it would make sense to me that, you know, you don't go in um like a bull in a china shop to kind of break the eggs on the first first attempt, right? I guess you kind of have to build that goodwill and kind of try to get as many people on the journey of change as possible. It's a delicate dance you've got to do, but you can't leave it too long.
00:24:11
Speaker
And Martin needs to create space for them to make changes as well, which I don't know that we've seen the evidence of that yet. That's the way I would put it. But, you know, I and I think I wrote this in the piece, you know, higher rate needs Moodle and the LMS market needs Moodle. So I really hope it works. And and you know, I wish them the best there. But you know, it was an interesting sort of tension there. um And you know, Neil, you were talking about catalog and they have a catalog product too, which is actually part of Moodle workplace. And I got super excited about that, I think.
00:24:50
Speaker
to to the point where I spoke to all the people too much about it. And they started running away when I came towards them because they were worried I was going to ask them about catalog. But you know I think there's a real need for that. um And you know it's it's part of Moodle Workplace. So it's part of a premium product. But you know maybe also Moodle needs to think about having a premium product in education you know as as well. and And that creates differences. But um you know it's it's it's a nice It was a nice product and I wish we had it in higher ed. The one thing I would say is I think there's a big, in my head, there's a big question on, you have to break eggs if you're going to make changes and Moodle needs to make changes to remain relevant or to
00:25:39
Speaker
Change its trajectory at the very least. It's very relevant it's biggest system in the world still at this point But we need more out of it and to do that you're kind of have to break some eggs to me the question is if it's a an Unwillingness to break eggs and that's just the leadership style then I become pessimistic if it's a transition period which you sort of alluded to in the beginning and while particularly while some of the underlying product changes are happening and then they're willing to sort of break the eggs and take a little bit of heat from Moodle community if needed, then I'm a lot more optimistic. So to me, it's like, is there a two-phase strategy here or is the, I don't want to tick anybody off?
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah no absolutely. one One positive sign, you know one of the things one of the problems we've seen with Moodle in the past has been the problems of getting innovation into the core product, you know because it was so process heavy and and um it was difficult to to to get that innovation in. And and I spent a lot of time with with partners, particularly, asking them about this. And it was interesting, because one of them pushed back at me about that. He said, no, it's To the extent now that there's difficulty getting things into the core, it's not because of too much democracy or or process or things like that. It's because the code that's coming is not good enough. And they're imposing some some some quality standards. And and so it's it's it's becoming a quality issue. So that that that was a good sign, one of those good signs, I think. But you know again, it's a balance. You've got to keep keep the members involved and and and things like that. and
00:27:25
Speaker
that the amount coming from the membership into into the core product is still pretty low. And you know it's it's it's one of those sort of delicate things as well. Now, it was ah just to close out on this thing, i move going to Mexico was sort of a high risk move. They'd been in Barcelona for all the previous MoodleMoot globals. What's sort of ah your quick judgment on that risk they took on going, not just away from a traditional city, but a pretty difficult travel challenge for a lot of people. Yeah, you know um i was it was easy for me. i I flew to Dallas and then I flew to Merida.
00:28:04
Speaker
pretty easy, but for a lot of people, it was more complicated, especially people coming from Europe, you know, a lot of them flew into Cancun and then did a three and a half hour bus trip. um So it was ah a substantial thing, but it was a commitment on their part to to move it outside of of Europe, in particular as a commitment to Latin America.
00:28:23
Speaker
So yeah it was much smaller, it was about half the size of of normal. But you know it stemmed from that commitment. That being said, next year it's it's back to Europe. It will be in the UK, which is where Scott Andeberg is based. so yeah By the way, some people get riled up when we say that. It's in Europe, in the UK.
00:28:41
Speaker
oh yes yes okay it is it is close to europe it is in the uk yeah but having having flown recently and had to get into different queues yeah that that there's that kind of confusion when you're in queue hang on i'm european aren't i oh no i'm not
00:28:59
Speaker
OK, well, let's move on to one other while um Morgan was really enjoying the food. I had a very different food experience because I went to Educause the same week and it was in San Antonio, Texas.
EDUCAUSE's Strategic Changes: Vendor Optimism
00:29:10
Speaker
And San Antonio's got some good food, but my wife flew out and she and Kevin Kelly and I, we made a deliberate attempt to do our basically the Texas Mecca to go out to Lockhart, Texas, sort of the birthplace of Texas barbecue and just the best barbecue in the world.
00:29:29
Speaker
It is. it Yes, that's a Morgan and I definitely agree on that. So it was it was wonderful having that food. Definitely had the meat sweats going on and the banana pudding sweats, but it was a wonderful food, but not as light and not as breakfast based as yours. But in any case, at Jucah's part of what was very interesting for me, and I have to note, Kevin and I, Kevin mostly, I sat in the side and acted like I was helping. Kevin ran it.
00:29:55
Speaker
We did a pre-conference workshop for EDUCAUSE and a lot of its partners. They're changing how they do partnerships. And there was a whole workshop that was all about how do we deal with partnerships differently. And part of the underlying message is having EDUCAUSE not treat all the vendors as just ATM machines or cash point machines. Actually looking as how you can talk institutions with vendors.
00:30:21
Speaker
the rules of that workshop. I didn't want to talk explicitly about what was there but I do want to note that we facilitated that session and were involved and it colored my perception of the conference. Then I go to the conference and I want to see if I'm seeing the same message and hearing the same things on the exhibit hall. And I spent my whole time in the in the exhibit hall And it was, one thing I will say, let me just start out with a very positive. It feels like EDUCAUSE is coming back. They were going down for several years. and In terms of attendance, right?
00:30:58
Speaker
attendance, importance, grumbling of vendors who are frustrated of being treated as cash points while they kept raising prices, ah attitude. No, it was it was attendance, but it was more and it was lost its place of being the preeminent. You have to go at tech conference because I 10, 15 years ago, that was the one you had to go to. Maybe not for you in Europe, but certainly in North America.
00:31:27
Speaker
And it's no longer that, you got ASU, GSV, South by Southwest, it's in Austin, so again, great barbecue. But they're not the only game in town and they were really, they needed to change models.
00:31:42
Speaker
This year, I think they said the attendance was up to 7,500 people, which was it was 6,000 last year. I forget the exact numbers, but the attendance went up. But more important to me is I went around and asked the vendors how they felt and how their conversations were. It was pretty universally optimistic from vendors.
00:32:03
Speaker
And it wasn't it wasn't just a tendency. The other thing Educause did that was really good is they took the exhibit hall and they created neighborhoods. So they had a teaching and learning neighborhood. That way you get the LMSs, anything dealing with teaching and learning in the same area. Cybersecurity is over here. yeah ERP student information systems are over here.
00:32:26
Speaker
and they wanted to create a lot more of that oh i'm seeing this booth oh but i care about these guys and like natural connections because similar topics were in the same place i really think that paid off for them this year it the feeling was a lot better not just attendance but also that neighborhood type feel. It just was a really good move that they made and I think it ah they get paid off. And obviously presume obviously that wouldn't have ah had an influence on the decision that people made to go to the conference. Yeah, I don't think that has impacted attendance this year, but I could future. But you said that there are more people like, but g what would you attribute that that to? A better program, a different climate,
00:33:16
Speaker
i um if i had to I mean, they have been going through a strategic planning process to rethink their role at EDUCAUSE. I think that's had an impact. um I've written about, I sense that the ed tech environment for vendors has not turned around, but maybe it's plateaued and people are starting to see either the light at the end of the tunnel or the prospects of a healthier market after a couple of years of doom and gloom.
AI's Role in EDUCAUSE Success: Helio Campus
00:33:46
Speaker
So I think the natural market was a reflection of it. That's a good question. Those are the two guesses I would have. I was wondering if AI played a part. I mean the think there still seems to be a lot i know that we sometimes get grumpy about AI, and but there still seems a massive appetite to engage with the challenge, the realities, the future around AI.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yeah, well, let me describe what I saw with AI with one example. I don't know ahead of time if I can say I can attribute that to the question you're asking about attendance and interest, but it's what I saw. So take Helio Campus. Helio Campus was created with the University of Maryland Global Campus. It was a spinoff, basically a data analytics play.
00:34:33
Speaker
But they were sort of the opposite of Civitas. Civitas was a data retention play, but black box. Give us your data. We have a great algorithm. Trust us and we'll give you better retention. Helio campus was more like, we're going to give you back your own data. And actually some of it's pretty mundane, but it turns out you're not looking at it.
00:34:55
Speaker
and we're gonna highlight it in a way that can make it actionable. And that's sort of their fundamental identity, at least my perception of it. They're getting into AI now, and the way they're doing it is interesting. Their whole push was about this semantic layer, saying, OK, we're past where we were last year. AI, you can't just sprinkle it on top of data, and it works. You actually have to organize the data. You have to work out some rules. so One example is like if you look at iPads enrollment, I was talking to them. I said, I would love if you guys set your new AI stuff on top of iPads, the US enrollment data. And it could do little things such as, well, when somebody asks questions about online enrollment, you should get it from the 12-month enrollment data because that better represents online education with multiple starts a year.
00:35:50
Speaker
and we're going to clean up this stuff so you're not gra you AI or not grabbing the wrong data and presenting it as the answer. It's actually going to be structured and cleaned and much more useful. that It sort of gets to our conversation about lifelong learning. It's getting into, yeah, there's a big picture of AI changes everything, but listen, people, we know we've got to do the nuts and bolts and get things to work to make things happen.
00:36:17
Speaker
When I talked to Helio Campus, I said, geez, guys, aren't you, I love it, but aren't you essentially have a sales approach of eat your veggies? You're telling people that, hey, you wanna know how great we are? Go eat your broccoli. Then you're gonna cut her off.
00:36:33
Speaker
Like the people selling candy are going to do a lot better than that. And they were very positive in their perspective. And I think this gets to your question. I'm trying to come back around to it. They're saying universities get this now. They've been looking at the magic of AI and starting to understand you can't just throw it on top of data. You have to do some work in between. And Helio Campus has the way they're approaching it. Anthology, they're doing it in a different approach with their data.
00:37:02
Speaker
But he those are the two I probably think of the most. but They're not the only ones. But Helio Campus was saying, no, schools are ready for this now. their So their customers, they might be the eat your veggies, but maybe it's the to take that metaphor too far. There's a lot of schools that are now ah diabetic and they realize they can't just eat candy. And so when somebody says, hey, we're gonna give you some good tasting vegetables and it's gonna pay off long-term,
00:37:29
Speaker
they're coming to EDUCAUSE to find out how can we really solve problems. So that might be too strong, but that's sort of my perspective. It's time to think seriously about it. And Hideo Campus actually has a long history of that because I remember talking with Derek Catalano the once and you know he He was very explicit. you know Gartner had this thing about you know with ah with data and analytics, you you had descriptive, diagnostic, predictive, and prescriptive. And a whole higher ed typically just wants to jump right into predictive and prescriptive. And he was very clear about, no, you've got to start with descriptive, and you work your way up there up the thing. you know So it all fits in
00:38:13
Speaker
Well, it makes you makes you wonder what it's like ah on his family vacations or his kids are constantly being told on how to eat good food, which is good advice, but it's it's in him. I think that's the important thing. This is not something new. They cruelly, this is their identity and they mean it. I'm using their example to say, I felt like part of the reason EDUCAUSE went well.
00:38:37
Speaker
Is there a lot of schools saying, okay, let's figure out how to actually make this happen. but Let's just not talk about Gen AI. We've already bumped our head into the wall of trying to throw some data and not knowing how to do it the right way. Let's get serious about it. And I need partners to help me make it happen. Maybe that's too optimistic a take, but I think there's at least a beginning of a groundswell in that direction right now.
00:39:04
Speaker
Not too often I'm gonna be this positive, but I felt pretty good for the brisket and the feeling I had coming out of edge cause. Yeah, there' ah there's a really strong food theme in this podcast, isn't there? Oh, there is. Speaking as a man who prefers broccoli to candy, you know, I yeah i appreciate that metaphor. But yeah, I mean, I guess. Now I'm really worried about where we're going to go for lunch next time. Oh, you're going to have a lot of fun. Yeah. I didn't say preferred broccoli over brisket. I said broccoli over candy. OK.
00:39:38
Speaker
and Yeah, I mean, I guess that makes a lot of sense in terms of, you know, just being ready. I wonder if there's a general sense as well as a kind of institutional sense of, of just like we're fed up with kind of this initial phase around AI, and we're ready to kind of get more serious. And I guess there's probably that sense of external pressures of now you need to kind of use this thing and implement this thing to actually make a difference to what you're doing.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yep, I'll add one other, and it's ah part of this comes from Morgan, in the way she likes to describe moral panics. For the first year, there was just a massive moral panic. So if you tried to talk about Gen AI in a serious way, you you get accused of, oh, you're for the students cheating nonstop, and you you know you're going to destroy the university. And so it's almost like you weren't allowed to have serious conversations for six to 12 months um after the initial chat GPT. So I think there's also an element of you're allowed to have mature conversations at this point. So, well, that's a, wait, hold on. Before we close out, then there's gotta be pressure on you. What was the best food you had in either Barcelona or in Amsterdam? um I had some really nice tapas in Barcelona. That was the kind of winner for me.
00:41:00
Speaker
Gosh, what did I have? I had some amazing manchego, which was pretty good with with with some nice quince. So that was yeah that was the one for me. Yeah. I always like eating and in Barcelona. that's just That's a great place, especially the market. Yeah. Joking aside, I felt very fortunate to kind of um hop over to two pretty nice pretty nice European cities, I have to say. Really nice.
00:41:27
Speaker
At my previous employer we had a conference every year in in Barcelona that I was fortunate to go to on a number of occasions, but for some reason they managed to find the one hotel in Barcelona with terrible food.
00:41:41
Speaker
such that some of my more hard-working colleagues who had never strayed beyond the hotel used to describe Barcelona as an awful food town. ah so so so sad well i I should also add that the the hotel where where we stayed and the conference was held had a very interesting space theme to it so everything was kind of space themed in there so when I arrived at the hotel there was a ah kind of a full-size replica of R2-D2 at the lift awaiting me so you know the food was good the hotel was good but it was a yeah it was an interesting an interesting theme but my my my eight-year-old boy was very excited about the fact that R2-D2 was in the hotel with me so we might have to go back yeah so that's where that's where he stays that's good to know
00:42:32
Speaker
i'm i'm I'm heading off to online education Berlin in a couple of days for next week. So yeah, we' I'll give you an update on that when I get back.
00:42:43
Speaker
Well, you have multiple updates. You got to update us on ah Berlin and that and the actual European conferences right there, not just UK, but also your lunch. This is the first time Morgan and Neil are going to meet each other in person. So it's actually a little bit high pressure. I hope they still are really big fans of each other after lunch. And I've i've got i've got a week to gear myself up for a hug. Oh, that's right. Yeah. For anybody out there who sees Morgan at a conference, she's all about the hug. That's go in, don't ask, just go for it. Hey, well, it's great seeing everybody and welcome back to season two. And we will give you some more updates on the distribution and how it's being used. But it's great to have the conversation and good seeing the two of you.