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Are you trying to tempt me? Because I come from the land of plenty
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The conversation delves into the complexities and challenges of online international education, highlighting the misconceptions surrounding international students and the financial pressures faced by universities. The speakers discuss trends in recruitment, the importance of understanding different markets, and the need for universities to adapt their strategies to meet the demands of a changing landscape. They emphasize the significance of partnerships and the long-term vision required to succeed in this evolving field.
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Transcript
Introduction: Online International Education
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Online Education Across the Atlantic. Today we're going to jump into a topic about online international students that I think sometimes people have a tough time thinking about it.
00:00:22
Speaker
I mean, on one hand, online, that's anywhere, anytime, so that should open up students from anywhere. But on the other hand, that doesn't often match
Exploring New Revenue Streams
00:00:32
Speaker
reality. So we're going to sort of jump into that subject, particularly now that a lot of schools are trying to look at different sources of revenue for themselves and where they can expand.
00:00:43
Speaker
But before we do that, it's ah great to see you too. And hopefully you guys are surviving the end of winter, getting ready for spring where you are. It's actually been really nice and sunny here, actually, Phil. It's quite disconcerting. and We've had ah several sunny days, nice weekends.
00:01:03
Speaker
yeah and and And in my case, the this weather has actually coincided with school horrible holidays, which is usually the time when the weather turns, just in time for you kind of spending more time with your kids. And, you know, you're sort frantically trying to find...
00:01:18
Speaker
things that you can do in the house for a prolonged period of time. So it's been pretty good over here,
Cultural Exchange: T-Ball Explained
00:01:24
Speaker
say. But i i I think in true British style, I'm kind of thinking, actually, the fact that it's good now means that it's going to be bad soon and probably bad when it should be good.
00:01:35
Speaker
Well, in Arizona, it's ah we know what's coming with the oven this summer. So we've actually had some rain, which obviously we need in the desert. But it it it ah canceled my grandson's t-ball game this Saturday. and So that was the big ah problem we had to deal with.
00:01:50
Speaker
Kids always keep me hopping because like it seemed like he was just born like last week. So now he's playing t-ball. He's playing t-ball. He's about, yeah, he'll be four years old in April. yeah things are moving along.
00:02:04
Speaker
Can I just ask, for the benefit of me and other UK listeners, what's t-ball? Oh, so it's basically baseball. Okay, okay. But instead of anybody pitching to the kids, they set up the ball on a little tee.
00:02:21
Speaker
And so they just get to hit. And then it's, ah you know, it's basically run by socialists. Every kid gets to hit. Nobody's out. Everybody runs the bases. So it's his first organized sport. but So like ah a waist high, waist high little pole that is T-shaped.
00:02:37
Speaker
yeah and then But of course I get upset because if they don't set the proper height for the kids, and it's like you're teaching them to swing at something that should be a ball. But yeah I'm not one of those yelling people in stands. You just quietly disapprove of the things. Exactly. I just look down upon them, shake my head.
00:02:55
Speaker
grandpa Grandpa, don't embarrass me. without getting too political, I kind of get up in the morning and open the news app. And there's part of me that thinks, a what what's happened now?
00:03:08
Speaker
Kind of, you know, um so yeah, it's kind of pretty mad. I mean, I know obviously you do, but like, i it's not unusual for me to open my news app on a morning and think what's happening in another country.
00:03:19
Speaker
um So you're doing like I do in the baseball stance. You're just disapprovingly shaking your head as you read it.
Insights from US Education Conference
00:03:26
Speaker
So I was at a conference last week, and actually my session on Friday was about how to interpret what's happening at the federal government with education and what to expect next.
00:03:37
Speaker
And the basic idea was like, look at the patterns. And even with this legislation, expect an answer to this question in late April, early May. This is what you should watch for.
00:03:50
Speaker
But I have to admit, I told people, I said, I accepted to do this session on December fifth not quite knowing what would be happening since January 20th. And I was trying to figure out if um if this was a good decision or not.
00:04:04
Speaker
But yeah, so actually it it provided the source of a presentation on Friday.
Trends in UK Universities
00:04:09
Speaker
I feel like there's a whole bunch of things that I need to be updated on in terms of what's happening in the world of higher education in the U.S. But other things dominate the news over here that that come over from the U.S., I think.
00:04:23
Speaker
And i Phil has an updated version of his headwinds diagram, you know, of the online learning plane flying into headwinds and tailwinds. And he has the government throwing trebuchets of of stuff at the plane, but it should be like a Sam 7 missile. Yes.
00:04:42
Speaker
and yeah and There's so much going on. I don't know that there's any particular subject worth diving into. other I mean, for us, I mean, you just have what we're saying. It's a continuous onslaught of news almost every day.
00:04:55
Speaker
um i actually think, but I don't have time to go into it, that there's a lot of patterns. You can figure out what's happening, what's likely to happen next. um but I don't know if there's any individual story that's worth highlighting. ah Neil, from your side, any particular news item that you've got your eye on?
00:05:13
Speaker
Really, I mean, it's felt actually a bit quieter in general in terms of newer announcements. You know, there's still the rumble of lots of um university redundancies and restructures and financial issues coming to the fore and You know, the Cardiff University one seems to be quite prominent, but there's there's kind of others.
00:05:36
Speaker
So that that's the main thing. um I mean, a couple of things that were just interesting was and i think hanker saw saw actually today that I think there had been a record number of applications from US students for undergraduate places in the UK, which is interesting, although we're not talking about massive numbers here. so and But it had been had been an increase.
00:05:58
Speaker
they've announced who they want to take over the regulator here. So they've been an interim chair of the Office for Students, and they've announced that Edward Peck, who used who was who is the Vice-Chancellor of Nottingham Trent University, it's big university up here, has been put forward as the government's choice for the chair of the Office for Students.
00:06:17
Speaker
It might be quieter, but you do have similar trends. Like we have our Secretary of Education identified now, we're waiting for the Undersecretary So the actual oversight or whatever is starting to fall in place. And that that effect is very similar to what you're saying that it's on university college
Global Financial Pressures on Universities
00:06:35
Speaker
and university finances. Now, the intensity and how things are happening differ, but that's going to continue to be the story in many global regions throughout this year.
00:06:47
Speaker
Just that continuing sort of pressure and and worry on on the part of people and trying to figure out the way forward. And I think we should actually get you to talk about your long-term trend. Actually, that might be an idea. Maybe we do that for the next episode.
00:06:59
Speaker
I would note, it's not just... The nature here reminds me a lot of 2008. It's not just university finances. You have a lot of deer in the headlights. I'm not quite sure. I'm in a state of shock, so I'm paralyzed kind of activity. And it reminds me a lot of 2008 when you go to a conference and you see people walking around. Hey, when are you going to start that initiative you talked about?
00:07:25
Speaker
I don't know. so let's jump into it Neil, take us on a tour of the online international student market. Yeah, I mean, this has been on my mind a lot recently and it's coincided with kind of work that I've been doing as well.
00:07:41
Speaker
um I think, you know, to your point, Phil, what you were saying around the kind of um the trend of institutional finances, you know, in the UK, you're seeing different responses to that. And one of the responses is trying to diversify income and therefore that manifests itself um in different ways, domestically in terms of online education, but but most prominently in terms of looking internationally. So whether that be, um we call it transnational education over here, transnational education as in things like setting up branch campuses. So India is very popular at the moment.
00:08:18
Speaker
Southampton announced, University of Southampton over here announced a branch campus in India. There's lots of universities going to India. I think I described in one post I put out recently, this idea that kind of UK universities are like it's like a school school sort of soccer football match where all the kids just congregate around the ball, and that's India at the moment and for that kind of thing. But um equally, that's also...
00:08:42
Speaker
what What we're seeing there is also what I'm seeing in terms of online education as well as this kind of desire I suppose, tap into and target the international market um from
Misconceptions in Online International Education
00:08:56
Speaker
universities. and obviously um one of the things I kind of put in a post recently is I've sat through so many presentations where maybe it's been an online learning company who's talked about, you know, the vast population globally and the vast and growing need for higher education globally, and they've seen the kind of
00:09:16
Speaker
you know, we'd need to build X amount of universities um to meet this demand by, you know, whatever year it is. And, you know, then the kind of, you know, the mic drop moment is look and brick and more universities aren't going to make this.
00:09:31
Speaker
So online's got to meet it. So and i think that's a bit of the context. um But I think i i ah I'll keep my powder dry a little bit, but I think what I'm seeing um alongside those aspirations is a lot of kind of misunderstanding and misconceptions or lack of understanding on the kind of different nuances of the kind of online international market.
00:09:55
Speaker
um So I guess I'm just, ah we can get into that, but I'm just interested in understanding whether what I'm seeing in terms of the trends and a desire to, either for those who are more mature in online, to recruit more international students or universities that maybe not played in that area before,
00:10:14
Speaker
to move
US Institutions and International Students
00:10:15
Speaker
into it. Is that something that you're seeing as well over there? or or or of have US institutions been be better historically at the international market? what's What's the picture over there?
00:10:28
Speaker
i think traditionally they haven't been very good at it, you know, in terms of just the simply the getting international students in. I mean, even the ones that were doing better, was it was a really tiny, small slice, um you know, in part because of the complex way that people think about um ah graduate study and and and as ah as as a way into a different country, a different kind of experience and stuff. But certainly, I'm seeing distinct signs of places being more interested in it. So I was talking with somebody who works for one of the of longest running, most established online brands, and they were saying that their number one priority right now is to get
00:11:06
Speaker
more international students in. um So, you know, I think it's definitely an increase. I think we do need to distinguish, and I know you've done some work for this on this, Neil, in terms of also the the folks who sort of franchise the degrees as well, you know, so the Emeritus and the Beacons and Stafford Global and and and places like that. So I think we need to distinguish those because I think they're different, but but but operating in some different kinds of ways.
00:11:32
Speaker
Well, i looked ah I went and looked at some of the iPad's data, um as I want to do, um just to get a sense on where we actually are. can stop any time, people. He can stop any time. Yes, yes. I chose to look at iPads, and I i walked away.
00:11:47
Speaker
That's because my wife told me to leave the computer. but um But if you look at like graduate education, so degree granting, you know, master's, doctoral degrees, fully online education in the U.S., when we say it's not that big here, it was always hovering at the two and a half to 2.7 percent of fully online graduate students, just to give you a sense of where it is historically.
00:12:14
Speaker
COVID changes things, things pop up and down. This has actually gone up a little bit. Now it's up to like 3.94% of fully online students in degree programs, graduate, are international. So it's small, but it actually has grown in aggregate.
00:12:33
Speaker
If you look at it in aggregate, you miss some of the picture of what's happening. So I went and just looked at the top institutions from fully online enrollments in the U.S. And actually, i have this right now. So this is undergrad and grad combined.
00:12:51
Speaker
Some specific cases are doing some pretty impressive things. Number one is
Leading US Institutions in Online Enrollment
00:12:56
Speaker
University of the People. Now, I don't know if you run, do you run across that, Neil, or are you familiar with them? I'm familiar with them, yeah.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Well, for any of the listeners who aren't, I mean, it's a it's a relatively new university. The whole idea a university of the people. Let's give people access to education. But they really put those values into how they operate the university. It's essentially tuition-free.
00:13:24
Speaker
although they do charge fees to make things happen. But they do a lot of stuff to make that work, such as getting people to volunteer faculty time on what they're doing. So they've set it up as a very low cost.
00:13:39
Speaker
And once they do it, they also aggressively go out and try to find... specific populations that they want to serve. Afghan refugees it was one of them, particularly given the you know what's happening in their government right now.
00:13:55
Speaker
So they've gone after specific targets, and they're free, and therefore they're the largest that I see. But they have 36,000, more than 36,000 online international students right now.
00:14:11
Speaker
Brigham Young University, Idaho, ah They've got a fair amount, over 10,000 international online students. And now their connection with the Mormon church is, I would assume, is the main cause or enabling factor for that.
00:14:26
Speaker
And then the third one, I'm going to take a pause and have Morgan guess, what's the third largest in terms of online international in the U.S.? oh Oh, i the pop quiz.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yes, i was um it's new that we're doing that here. Um, wow. I would go with either World Campus or Georgia Tech. Okay, we'll give you one of those. It's Georgia Tech.
00:14:50
Speaker
So Georgia Tech combined, they have around 7,000, almost 8,000 students who are online internationally. Wow. So there are individual cases with fairly substantial numbers. But in aggregate, you're talking that it's finally bumped up to almost 4% of all fully online students.
00:15:14
Speaker
I may be oversimplifying it here, but my sense from Georgia Tech is that that's been a bit of a shift because originally their online was much more American in focus.
00:15:27
Speaker
And I wonder how much that has shifted. Well, we remember ah they came out and they weren't quite sure. and there was that So what they did their online master's in computer science and it grew quickly.
00:15:38
Speaker
And then a lot of people were wondering, are they cannibalizing the campus-based programs by doing this, yeah particularly with the low cost? And there was that MIT study that said, actually, it's a different population.
00:15:52
Speaker
i I have to go back and get that study. it's I think it's a decade old right now, by the way, or maybe nine years. Was it the Joshua Goodman one? i think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was 2016. Yeah.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah. So that one, um I thought they did have a fair number of international students in that mix, but it's been so long, you might be more up to date than I am on that. I don't remember the exact thing, but I do remember like there were the the ah the programs were opposites of other. So their on-campus program is heavily international. Their online at that point was heavily American. But I i suspect that the international component, because has it has shifted in some other ways as well over time of the past decade. So I think the international thing has gone up there. But i'd'd I'd like to check. Maybe I need to go to Atlanta soon and I should go hang out with them and find out.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, so i don't know if those numbers, Neil, surprise you with sort of and either way. Yeah, I mean, i guess it doesn't massive surprise me in terms the university, the people, but um yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting just to kind of reflect on the the different universities that doing interesting stuff in this space. Because, I mean, I think we have we have a few who ah are quite orientated towards it. So I think our ah the the main university really for online international over here is the University of London that for undergraduates has a really high proportion and has kind of always been operating in that market.
00:17:20
Speaker
um And yeah, that's kind of been their kind of one of their core focuses really. um But i'm just I'm just interested in, well, you're saying you were saying that you you're seeing more interest across the board um and that's certainly what I'm seeing here.
Misconceptions vs. Reality in Online Education
00:17:37
Speaker
But I...
00:17:39
Speaker
ah you I think one of the things I wrote about was this kind of misconception. um i think universities over here um sometimes get into the difficulty of equating the online international student with the on-campus international student, you know the internationally mobile and kind of student.
00:18:00
Speaker
do Do you feel confidence that but there's enough institutions that understand the differences in audiences to kind of you know to meet demand? Well, isn't that the purpose of this episode, to help out?
00:18:12
Speaker
um No, I don't think people realize it. I'll just point out two things. So two of the three programs I mentioned that do have a lot of online international They are defined by ultra low cost.
00:18:25
Speaker
On campus international is primarily defined with, hey, they're not going to take financial aid and they're going to pay full full price. And what a great revenue opportunity it is. So they're diametrically opposed. as But then your question is, do schools understand that? I think some do, but I don't think it's... ah I think when you get into colleges or universities trying to make quick revenue-based decisions, that's where I think you find people with misconceptions.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, and that's ah yeah that's definitely what we see over here. And I think it's interesting to see, to just acknowledge similarities really, because you know over here you're talking about highly marked up and fees for for degrees for international students.
00:19:12
Speaker
And I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, but the way I always think about is for the online international market, you kind of ah almost have to think the opposite. And I think that's that's something that's really hard for...
00:19:25
Speaker
irrespective of whether there's an understanding ah of a market, I think that's ah that's a really hard thing for universities to contemplate. um And i I guess I'm not sure, um you know, the extent to which universities would be willing to go in that in that direction over here. um And obviously that and doesn't really align with some of the drivers behind going into the international markets, thinking of it as an opportunity.
00:19:54
Speaker
um And so I guess some of the avenues that have been facilitated by other partners over here have been partnerships where you know, you've you've got a low cost degree, but you're kind of delivering really high scale in order to make that viable.
00:20:11
Speaker
um And I've seen that over hit over here, but um I'm not sure about the the level of appetite for that kind of approach to make it to make it viable. have you so ah Do you see institutions over there making that kind of move where they're moving into online and they're doing it very for international for an international audience and they're doing it very deliberate and deliberately and scaling up numbers at low cost to support that and to
Strategic Scaling of Online Education
00:20:39
Speaker
make that viable? Is that something that's being engaged with over there as well?
00:20:43
Speaker
yeahgan you were You were at Illinois and have followed them. They're low cost. they They've got all the parts you talked about, except for maybe not the international. They're deliberately at scale in order to do low cost, but They have like 1,400 online internationals. So it's not nothing, but it's not that high. Do you know yeah any insights?
00:21:04
Speaker
and And sort of compared to their on-campus, which was very significant um in terms of international. So I think it's it's it's probably been a disappointment. I mean, I don't know. you know I think it's harder to get.
00:21:17
Speaker
But i think i mean I think this is a good thing. But we should also think about the fact that things are changing right now you know with the limits on visas, both in terms of um regulatory limits.
00:21:27
Speaker
in Australia and the UK and Canada, as well as um just, I've seen lots of visa refusals. You know, the rate has gone up substantially. um and And then the and unattractiveness on the part of many countries for for students. So I think things are shifting. So I think, you know, we need to think about that as well.
00:21:48
Speaker
Well, you know, you said you've heard from schools and you'd noticed the misconceptions. When you've heard this is it just the concept of online international or has there been much of a reflection on what Morgan just said?
00:22:02
Speaker
You know, times are changing and we need to move now. Yeah, I mean, i think um I think in terms of what Morgan's saying, I i think that that's ah almost like an additional driver. Look, if we're going to struggle to recruit on campus because, you know, the government controls around immigration are becoming ah more difficult, then that's that's a reason to kind of think about online education.
00:22:28
Speaker
um internationally and i think was it one of your predictions morgan i might be putting words into your mouth i thought you were saying that the on-campus international the mobile and kind of student audience might be more willing to do online is that right or yeah yeah i i think you and you put better words in my mouth so yeah go ahead did i yeah Do you still feel that way?
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think, you know, um I think your so students are going to be more interested in in online because of just some of the but stuff going on in the world, you know, or perhaps that they might play out in different ways in in terms of more strategic, you know, maybe in some unusual kinds of places that, you rather than the big the big four providers may be more interested in in in other European countries. I don't know.
00:23:18
Speaker
i think I think it is really interesting in terms of the misconceptions, because I think You know, we've already mentioned price, and I think that's one of the big ones, just acknowledging the price
Price Sensitivity in Recruitment Costs
00:23:27
Speaker
sensitivities. And I know I've seen different um different pieces of data that really delve into that by a country basis. And you're looking at, you know, what the UK kind of standard average price is for, say, a master's program or a bachelor's degree.
00:23:43
Speaker
And then you look at that in different countries relative to things like you know earnings and stuff. And there's just such a disparity. And I think that's the that's the thing that often frustrates me around the kind of misconceptions because it I think if you if you're only viewing international students through the lens of those who have the finance and the backing to actually move to another country and study, you know, you're really just looking at a relatively small subset of people and you're not looking at the world properly. um And I think some universities are thinking about this as, ah this is about just grabbing a bunch of extra students from other countries.
00:24:24
Speaker
Whereas instead, actually, this is this is this requires more of a deliberate orientation. And so that's I think that's the really interesting area, the extent to which if if universities really want to go into the space, are they were willing and able to orientate their model?
00:24:42
Speaker
towards an international market that demands greater price sensitivities, that demands um probably a stronger focus on particular subjects in order to get the scale to make that viable.
00:24:54
Speaker
And I think that's the thing that um yes some universities are kind confronted with on the back of those misconceptions and suddenly it's,
Pathway Programs for International Students
00:25:03
Speaker
well, oh, hang on a minute, actually, this isn't what we thought it was and it's going to require you know, a pivot to deliberately orientate ourselves and serve this audience, I think.
00:25:15
Speaker
um Well, there's also the the pathway. I mean, like, if you look at University of the People, that's more of an altruistic, get the help these people get degrees and give them a leg up. And it's straightforward.
00:25:29
Speaker
And they've built their whole model on it. Outside of that, I think you have to start asking your question. I think, Morgan, you mentioned it in there. It's like, A lot of international students have seen the U.S., U.S. grad degrees in particular, as a way to get into the U.S. and then get, you know, work for a U.S. company.
00:25:48
Speaker
So it's sort of a pathway. And then part of the question, I think, is is online international effectively a pathway. But I think universities would need to think, what is that next step?
00:26:00
Speaker
So in other words, and I think that for the most part, you have to think that through. Are you... trying to get students so for the first year or two it's easy and they don't have to have the visa lined up but the third year of a program they're on campus and that's what you're moving for or do you have a workforce type of program that it's going to enable so i think you have to think about the pathway in the vast majority of cases and you can't avoid that subject if you want to have any kind of meaningful enrollment is
00:26:34
Speaker
area. Yeah. So, yeah. So I think that's, that's critical, ah ah ah a way to, to, to get those other sort of associated goals addressed.
00:26:45
Speaker
and And so we'll see more hybrid kinds of things, more, yeah, more one online, one on campus kind of stuff models, um or else the, the, the elite business schools may be working on pathways even outside of their own country, you know, but,
00:27:02
Speaker
hey, come take an MBA here, but we'll also help you arrange ah an internship in this country or or something here. And and it it fuels your mobility as a person.
00:27:15
Speaker
Now, why would you, hold on second, why would you do, if you're in a week school, why would you do that? If you, as opposed to what I think has been more traditional, We have an Abu Dhabi campus and they might offer distance education in the region, but we're we're targeting the region.
00:27:34
Speaker
So, I mean, i guess is is this potentially a way where you can still do that same type of thing in region service of students and graduates, but it doesn't require you to have, you know, the campus in a different region?
00:27:51
Speaker
Like, how do you contrast that? Yeah, no, i I would need to think through it, but I think um I can sort of see that that working. So if you want to take yeah if you want to go study um but with a business school in Switzerland, you don't need to necessarily work there go there, but you can take the degree and they they organize ah ah ah an internship and perhaps a ah first job in in Southeast Asia somewhere because of connections and those sorts of things. I can see that working.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. I was just wanting to go about something you said around pathways, Phil, because I think something that's kind of established to certain extent over here is, is are those kind of
Partnership Strategies for Pathways
00:28:33
Speaker
pathways? So I think it's often referred to for bachelor's degrees as kind of a two plus one where, you know, a student will do the two years in in their home country and then the first, the the final year of ah of the three-year degree that we have.
00:28:47
Speaker
would be they come to the country and they kind of have the appeal of being able to stay here. um And I've seen those also manifest themselves in terms of online. And often those year one and two will be very reasonably priced. I know some universities kind deliberately orientate themselves to that and offer the kind of year three only.
00:29:09
Speaker
um and so you'll kind of have two years at two grand, a year and then you'll have five, six grand, very, very cheap, kind of all in. um But often that's kind of partnerships with um either private providers or other institutions. And so I think the partnership element is really interesting as well. I mean, I wrote something recently around OPMs and the the extent to which they have served um global kind of student recruitment goals um there was also so some there's also an interesting component of it in terms of agents where agents certainly in the uk are a really important partner for international recruitment um but i think i think the whole a whole partnering area is is interesting i so
00:29:59
Speaker
Well, first of all, we're in the US, so that's not a two plus
Role of OPMs and Partnerships
00:30:02
Speaker
one. It's a three plus three is what we officially call it. Get proper maths. No. We take longer to graduate. But um I've seen you know the University of Florida online. They explicitly were recruiting online and undergraduate even.
00:30:20
Speaker
um with the promise of finishing up the degree on campus. But that was really for out-of-state domestic students.
00:30:31
Speaker
um So I haven't seen that type of approach. But if you ask yourself, would it make sense or is there space for it to happen? I think that there's going to be a lot more schools trying to figure that out, um given enrollment and financial challenges. And that's one of the potential pathways.
00:30:51
Speaker
Now, that your question about OPMs. That could be a pretty natural area for an OPM because some of the value of doing online programs is not what it used to because schools could do more of their own.
00:31:03
Speaker
Well, if they have a specialty in placements after graduation, so I think it's a space that's available to them, but I haven't really seen that yet.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I wonder what the perception is over there, because I definitely have have, there may be another misconception, but I think universities, I think over here, tend to have um a sense that OPMs are stronger internationally. You know, I've seen so many OPM university in announcements where universities,
00:31:36
Speaker
global international um recruitment is really central. And I sometimes wonder what's behind that, because when you look at the numbers um relative to the universities have those partnerships, it's not to say they're not recruiting online international students, but they're not doing it at really big scale. is there some Is there any similar sense and semblance over there that there's too much faith placed on certain partners that they're going to achieve scale internationally. Well, keep in mind our OPM providers are so are somewhat pulling back on their scale or dealing with the pullbacks they've been having in their own financial challenges.
00:32:15
Speaker
right. So if I were going to do this, um let's just say they handed me to you and all the money behind it. Um, I'd consider buying Beacon Education and say, listen, you guys know you have the connections overseas, in Asia in particular, in China, and you know how to recruit students. You're doing your own franchise type of thing. Well, what if we sort of took that expertise, combined it with our...
00:32:41
Speaker
ability to work with us universities on degrees and then you almost provide a pathway or a continuum for schools so right now i don't see them as having that expertise but again um i could see that happening so and if that does happen if uh somebody buys beacon you know we i think we should get at least some percentage of that over here yeah yeah you you heard it here first and uh yeah we'd like a we'd like a cup um
00:33:11
Speaker
I personally think that that the partnership element is so is such an important aspect of international student recruitment, has been for a long time, but I think it's not necessarily quite the one size fits
Adapting University Models
00:33:24
Speaker
all. I mean, one of the um online providers i'm I'm a big fan of um in your neck of the woods is Berkeley Online, and I've seen...
00:33:33
Speaker
you know They have and transfer arrangements with particular universities overseas. I think that's a nice move, particularly if you've got an institution that has a sort of kind of kudos behind it.
00:33:45
Speaker
What this seems to always come back to for me, and it's same for any universities that are making the move more generally into online, is... it is actually this is about serving a ah new type of audience. That place places a particular onus on a university to change. And unfortunately, I think the drivers are financial. And so the view is very much, well, how can we, within the existing framework of what we do, just grab a bit more from from the world and instead of how do we actually properly orientate ourselves? And I guess maybe the same could be said of the OPMs to this market, ah particularly given...
00:34:22
Speaker
You know, the online market in our countries is becoming more saturated and more challenging. Yeah. And I think a lot would depend. Are you talking short term revenue or are you talking long term revenue? Like, I don't think I would reject this whole space from a revenue basis if that were your primary driver.
00:34:40
Speaker
But there's a very big difference of, hey, we've made all this extra money from on-campus international students. Let's do it online. That's just not going to work for the reasons we've talked about. And certainly without stopping to think about what is the student experience and and what are student expectations and rethinking that, it's going to be different.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah. And you're going to have to set up the student supports to make that successful. But if you do something more like what you're mentioning with Berkeley, you know, hey, we recognize that the whole...
00:35:09
Speaker
pipeline flow of students is changing. There's greater demand in India. um And so we're setting up something that we think that the total revenue 10 years from now will be material and all potentially even transformative.
00:35:26
Speaker
I do think that that is available, but you're going to have to take your time, and invest, see what works. And as you said, form a lot of partnerships who know the other countries you're going to be drawing from.
Long-term Investment in Online Education
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah, and i I almost feel that way about online in general and you know equate it to investing in investing in stocks and being in there for the long term, which feels especially pertinent at the moment, um going through the volatility to to get the returns, perhaps.
00:36:00
Speaker
um But maybe that's a good like glass ah good place to end it on. Yeah. Yeah. Before we slap some tariffs on your UK students. Yeah. um Yeah.
00:36:12
Speaker
So I think this will be a growing area. I think there are possibilities, but it is, as we said, it's fairly small. um Well, a final question. I want to go back to Morgan. You said you've heard a little bit more interest. I just want to get ah any additional color there before we close out.
00:36:31
Speaker
Just and from institutions that have been online for a while are starting to say, hey, this is some of the something that we're looking at next. So schools that are saying, we've already figured out in general how to support online. Now, how do we augment it?
00:36:46
Speaker
Okay, that's interesting. And that actually makes like some makes some sense, right? and And I've seen that. I've definitely seen that too. Yeah, I've definitely seen that too go over here.
00:36:58
Speaker
Well, it's definitely something to watch, but more as a long-term trend.
Future of Online International Education
00:37:02
Speaker
Although they' you know we also noted there are some reasons, particularly around immigration rules, that might be triggering it to happen faster than we expected.
00:37:12
Speaker
um But it's something that we'll definitely keep a watch on. Well, um it's great talking to you guys, and we'll look forward to a conversation in two weeks from now.