Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
OEAA Live at Leeds
141 Plays20 days ago
The conversation reflects on the Online Learning Summit held at the University of Leeds, discussing the growth of online education, the challenges and opportunities faced by institutions, and the importance of innovation and leadership in navigating change. The speakers emphasize the need for a shift in educational approaches, particularly in light of generative AI and evolving student needs, while also recognizing the enduring relevance of traditional degrees and institutions.
*Takeaways*
The summit showcased a growing community in online education.
There is a need for more student panels at conferences.
Common challenges in online education are consistent across regions.
Generative AI is changing the landscape of education.
The relevance of degrees is increasingly questioned.
Change in education is a complex, multifaceted issue.
Leadership plays a crucial role in driving change.
Innovation often arises from constraints rather than abundance.
Incremental change is necessary for traditional institutions.
The importance of assessing the impact of educational changes.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
and and
00:00:09
Speaker
We're just going move straight away our online education across the Atlantic team. And yeah and we we know them well now. So give them a good warm welcome.
Introduction and Initial Impressions
00:00:24
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome back to Online Education Across the Atlantic. I bet you guys did not know the past two days were pre-production for the podcast, but appreciate you guys working with that.
00:00:35
Speaker
This has been ah great. We're coming to you from the University of Leeds and the Online Learning Summit. And first of all, you two got a chance to meet. Any comments now that you've actually met met in person?
00:00:48
Speaker
Anything you'd like to share with us? um What can I say about Morgan? um i i The only thing that I can really reflect on is that, you know, often in our podcasts, we um review conferences.
00:01:03
Speaker
And one of Morgan's common criticisms is, um you know, don't ask her to do something in a conference. And Morgan was actually on a panel um where we were asked to do things at a conference. And I just have to say I'm a little bit disappointed. That's all. That's all. That's all I have to add.
00:01:18
Speaker
I strive to be a source of disappointment for Neil. It is my life goal.
The Density and Growth of the Summit
00:01:23
Speaker
Well, and so what we wanted to do today is, first of all, since we've been through two days together, we've learned and connected a lot. And I have to say, this summit really is I've told people, it's dense.
00:01:36
Speaker
It's dense in content, but it's also dense in people. um Important people you want to know, operators, people you want to learn from. So it's been ah wonderful. But I want to do the beginning. We're sort of going to reflect more.
00:01:50
Speaker
on the summit to to date or what we've heard. But then we're going to spend the second time sort of branching off into a theme that I think I heard ah throughout the conference. And so we'll we discuss that.
00:02:04
Speaker
So I'd love to get your initial thoughts. I mean, besides the fact that I was a little bit disappointed how shy Martin is and that he needs to come out of his shell. But um What are some of your initial thoughts on the summit? and I know, Neil, you were here two years ago. What were your thoughts on this summit and what did you know what did you get out of this?
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think what was really nice um reflecting on this summit relative to a couple of years ago is just seeing so many more faces around the room who are involved in online education in the UK. That wasn't the case. And that's really encouraging in terms of how things are developing and growing. um And, you know, I um often liken this event to, I'll contrast it with and some of the weddings that you go to. So if you've ever been to a wedding when um you you don't really know anybody, and it's it's often not that fun, is it? Let's be honest about it.
00:02:59
Speaker
But then you go to the wedding where it's your friends getting married, you know everybody. And this conference feels a little bit like that because we're all part of the online education community. And we've got all got a lot to share and that community is growing. So um that's what I really love about this summit and how it's kind of stepped on from two years ago.
Live Recording and Student Perspectives
00:03:18
Speaker
about you? Well, as the softer, cuddlier one of the of the trio, that being a relative term, I think we need to first celebrate some stuff. This is our first ever live podcast all in one place. And I think it's the first one we've ever done where we were wearing pants.
00:03:33
Speaker
And by the way, before we get more to my mom listens to this podcast, just she said we just ran in a bit. yeah um By the way, another small comment.
00:03:43
Speaker
My goodness, have you guys had food like this at a summit before? i mean, that was remarkable. The logistics, the AV, all the support has been great. ah One thing I would add, I think that most EdTech and online learning summits need to have a student panel.
00:04:00
Speaker
And it grounds you in the conversation. And I thought that was really useful today, even though, you know, we're talking for students, but the impact that you see when that happens, it sort of forces you to think about it from the student perspective. So that was excellent.
00:04:16
Speaker
But the other thing related to that, my goodness, It's remarkable how consistent the issues are, no matter what geography you're in.
00:04:27
Speaker
You know, where people are, I'm fitting this in my life. I have this job. I can't come to campus. I'm working extra to do this. um You know, and this enables me to advance my career. You know, the the good things, but also the bad things. So ah University of London heard a little bit about the timely support and response on customer support.
00:04:49
Speaker
But that was really interesting because the way they phrase it, it's from their perspective. But I'm sitting there thinking that's exactly what we hear in the U.S. That's exactly what I hear in Canada. That's what you hear in so many eras. And so I'm not ignoring regional differences, but it's so refreshing to hear it from students. and I think that should be ah we're almost a requirement for more of these conferences as we move together.
00:05:15
Speaker
Any other highlights or key items that you noticed? The pulled pork? is that coming Can we just so shout out for that? Yeah. Apparently, Yorkshire people can cook barbecue. I think this is one of the take home.
00:05:28
Speaker
That was impressive. Yeah, that was. um Yeah. You know, i've i've got ah ah an amazing number of nuggets. In fact, I'm i'm i'm brewing a post at the moment that I'm going to write as a form of free verse. And you should all look for Phil's head exploding um at at some point as I try to do that. But, you know.
00:05:47
Speaker
For me, one of the things that happened was it felt a little bit like we were on a ah journey, perhaps on a boat. too And occasionally we see glimpses of the headlands and and the distance you of micro-credentials particularly. that sort of we'd We'd sail close and we'd get a glimpse and then we'd we'd come back away. And we weren't quite there yet, but we sort of saw glimpses of it. and we In the last session, perhaps we got closer, but that was one thing.
00:06:12
Speaker
Another thing was I i got another R. you know For a long time, I've been talking about, online learning as reach, revenue and reputation. Now we've got relevance as well. So so thank you for that.
00:06:26
Speaker
um i think it's also, even though we were talking about online learning, we we kept going back to the way that knowledge was changing and the way that that bounced in and out of the the modality question. So that was another sort of thing for me.
00:06:42
Speaker
One of those one-line phrases that I really want to hang on to is Damien's phrase yesterday from Neil's panel, which was excellent, um about how as you try and bring change into the university, you get this sort of immunoresponse, this internal response to shut it down.
00:07:03
Speaker
and I think there's a very rich concept in there as well. that and And it's good for me because I always think of resistance as being bad and it's good phrasing it that way because a it's funny, but B, it also, you realize that it's good as well.
00:07:18
Speaker
And so that was, those are some of the things that I've been thinking about. Yeah, and I think, well, I hope, I feel like there's something for everybody. I mean, I think... um You know, it's really, really interesting what Sam's doing at University of London. But, you know, institutions are all different stages on their journey around this kind of thing. And the panel that we had, different approaches, different challenges, different institutions.
00:07:46
Speaker
um So I think across the board, there's ah been something for everything, everyone to to latch on to, depending on what stage they're at in that kind of space. in that kind of evolution and something um to get excited about, um you know, as as things develop. So, yeah.
00:08:04
Speaker
Well, feel like we're sort of morphing into our bigger subject already. um But before we get to it, and it gets to the nature of change, that's sort of a theme that I kept hearing is um and brought up even in comments.
00:08:17
Speaker
But before we get to it, i and this might sort of set the stage, we heard a little bit in the beginning ah ah more about how different this moment is and about how generative AI is different and more than what we're seeing before.
Generative AI and Educational Transformations
00:08:31
Speaker
And I asked a question in the VLE session, and but I was asking about the nature of big tech. And big tech generative AI is not just the platform and the APIs. It's becoming more a product.
00:08:46
Speaker
And in particular, Notebook LM. By the way, shared this with ah Margaret. I um put the Padlet exercises from the cost session into Notebook LM, um created study guides, a podcast episode about all of the Padlet discussions, and an FAQ. And it took me about five minutes to do this.
00:09:07
Speaker
But part of that is it it's remarkable how advanced some of this technology is coming from big tech. And it really raises the question a lot of our past assumptions about our roles as operators, our roles as vendors and stuff like that.
00:09:23
Speaker
So we started off talking about how different things are, but I didn't feel that that really carried through in all of the conversations. But I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean it as a matter of I think we're starting to confront some fundamental changes in education and trying to figure out while you're while you were being poetic about seeing the headlands and stuff.
00:09:46
Speaker
is we're getting glimpses, but I mean, we're talking about some fundamental changes. So I don't know if you guys had that same sense of what we're really talking about here. Yeah, I mean, I think there's all manner of different fundamental changes, isn't there? We talked about ai We talk about, um maybe touched on in the last session, how um the government policy and funding environment is changing. you know, as was meeting with some senior leaders of the other day and talking about the way that government's prioritising, you know, a particular agenda and a particular way of offering ah education. So there are a lot of things going on. think...
00:10:23
Speaker
i think We also have to temper that a little bit um because I think sometimes we can get led by narrative rather than um something that's a bit more grounded. I know it's it's that feels like a difficult thing to say because there's uncertainty and things going on. um And, you know, i think elements of that around how we think about knowledge, how we think about the relationship with knowledge and skills, how we think about knowledge relative to ai there are things changing, but there also are some fundamental relationships.
00:10:55
Speaker
That we could skirt over or we could deny if we're kind of carried away a bit too much by some of the rhetoric, I think. Maybe we'll dig into that because that's probably a bit vague. yeah Yeah, we'll get more into that. But in a like how significant do you think the changes are that we're facing right now?
00:11:09
Speaker
I think they're massively yeah massively important and fundamental. That was what I was getting at, was the nature of knowledge is different. And so the way that we acquire it, the way that we pass it on, the way that we assess it has to be different.
00:11:25
Speaker
And it it's happening in all kinds of different directions and and and forces and and trying to wrap our heads around that. Thinking about that, one thing I think we want to hold on to, and I think we...
00:11:40
Speaker
left it out of our opening session, and I don't think it was talked about enough in the conference, was how the outside environment is also really different, not just in terms of tech, but in terms of regulations and government and zeitgeist.
00:11:55
Speaker
And in some ways, that was a nice change, particularly for me coming from the US. It's like a little holiday for a bit. because I have to deal with it too much. But I think we need to also think about that because, you know, for example, in thinking about how online learning will evolve in the UK relative to the US, time has moved on and it's it's we're not 2015 anymore.
00:12:17
Speaker
um So, you know, I think there's sort of two aspects to that, but I think it's a profound change in Because i I write a newsletter and the publisher of the newsletter that I write for is a hard hardcore, hard-ass kind of guy, i have to write a newsletter post tomorrow.
00:12:33
Speaker
um So in between, I've been trying to jot things down. and And that was one of the things that I really sort of keying into. You know, it's interesting things I read this week, but I keep finding those things in the readings. And it's because it's I've been attuned to it here in these conversations.
00:12:48
Speaker
Said publisher, all I insist is the Oxford comma. That's the main thing. We have we have very large debates about grammar. So, so our we we're already teasing or getting around what I sense is one of the main topics here, even if it wasn't explicitly listed this way. I just kept hearing comments.
00:13:09
Speaker
So, when Martin was talking, there was a question down in the front. We were talking about students can gain things from different providers, and it's not necessarily um from a college or university. And I think the question, as I recall, was, why should we care?
00:13:25
Speaker
And Martin's answer was, well, if you're a student or a learner, you probably don't care. It's a good thing that you can gain a lot of knowledge, experience and education, if you will, in many different places. But if you're a college or university,
00:13:40
Speaker
It is a big deal because it's that crisis of relevance. And it it's not just the academic integrity, but it's the question of what does a college or university degree credential signify? And I think that's fundamentally becoming more and more under question. And it... That's one of the reasons I think things are changing.
00:14:01
Speaker
However, that leads to sort of the discussion about what is the nature of change? Because the easiest thing to talk about is, oh, we need to do things completely different.
00:14:13
Speaker
We need to start this. We need to throw this away. We need to go towards skills. We need to get away from terms. We need to change our, you know, make all of these changes that a lot of us were talking about.
00:14:26
Speaker
But at the same time, and this goes back to that question, colleges and universities are not going away. And I don't believe very many people want them to go away. So it becomes this question of what's how do you effectively move that cruise ship and turn it and start incrementally moving it?
00:14:46
Speaker
in a different direction. And so I felt there was a lot of tension in these conversations between those two different views. We don't want to just sit here and summit and talk about how learning could be or should be.
00:15:01
Speaker
I think most of us here are educators, operators, people who are trying to influence organizations to actually do something. And so it's easiest to talk one way, but I think a lot of us have to deal with a different reality.
00:15:16
Speaker
So that's what I wanted to
Approaches to Educational Change
00:15:18
Speaker
sort of explore. Were you guys hearing the same themes in terms of different views on what change means and increasing? you know, incremental change, disruptive versus sustaining and innovation, all of these things.
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, i I definitely, I think change is one of the big take home themes and something that in many ways, those of us who are here, maybe you should spend the rest of the, you know the next year is thinking about and come back and reconsider ah next year, wherever we may be and and and so on. But I think it is such a ah complex issue.
00:15:55
Speaker
I think, as Martin said, it's not a technology problem it's a change problem it's a people problem and and so that that that's it and the problem is is that you can't stop what you're doing and then change you know for me one of the smartest things ever said about change was actually from seinfeld a guy has his toe cut off kramer puts it in crackerjack box and hijagger ah it gets on a bus to take the toe to get it it's sewn back on. And somebody hijacks the bus and and the bus driver passes out and Kramer starts driving the bus. And then at one point, the doors open and he pushes the guy out. Jerry says to him, you kept making the stops?
00:16:32
Speaker
And he said, well, I kept ringing the bell. And the problem is, is in universities, they're going keep ringing the bell while we have to get the toe to the hospital. that's an I had not thought of that ah thing. But ah Neil, how about you?
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. i think there is a the change focus. But i I do think we need to temper it with um some things that are more fixed. You know, you said that I don't think universities are going to go away.
00:16:56
Speaker
I think for all our talk about short courses and micro-credentials, I think the degree is going to go away either. um So I think there are, you know, the VLE, I don't think is going to go away either.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, so there that I think we have to temper the change agenda and narrative, which is, you know, ah good and right with those things. and And you can equally apply that to some of the things that we heard on the student panel.
00:17:23
Speaker
You know, actually some of the things relative to what the students were saying were actually just universities executing on them on the basics of good student support. um So I think there's still things to take from this conference that relate to just how can we do this work?
00:17:39
Speaker
better on the things that we we know, you know, how can we execute better? So I think there's that kind of jewelal dual thing going on. and And one thing I would add to it because we're talking it's complex, in our previous, we should test two episodes ago for any of our listeners or watchers, viewers. Yeah, all three of them. ah ah There was... um Although that's what led to us being here was the podcast itself. So we got to give it... To our biggest audience. its Yeah, that's right. But um one of the things we talked about when we interviewed Roger Nayak is he was describing a lot of his view. It's easy to talk. He's not here to defend himself.
00:18:20
Speaker
But with skilled education and when you work with a university... i will I had pointed out or he was pointing out how important it it is to do it within the university because you're changing the university.
00:18:33
Speaker
I brought up a counter view, which is, but what about the skunk works approach? What about the idea that the best way, is oftentimes the best way to get an organization to change is to create an independent unit, give them space to innovate and not have to listen to the bus bells ah getting rung and then get things going and only integrate after they've really established the model that works.
00:18:59
Speaker
And so there's really multiple models out there And this goes back, I heard, and I think it might have been in your panel, I can't remember, but some people talking about, I have the VC and not just the funding, but I have five, 10 years to get this done. So I'm protected.
00:19:19
Speaker
To me, that's the skunk works mentality. And so it raises that question. If you are trying to move a traditional school towards this direction,
00:19:30
Speaker
and towards a more skills-based approach and not just assume the degree is going away.
Challenges in Online Skills Education
00:19:36
Speaker
whats How do you do that? i i think every institution is unique and at unique stages and has unique conditions. And I think, um so I think, I think you have to be more bespoke around the ah the approach really. i think um I think what works for some institutions isn't gonna work for others.
00:19:59
Speaker
um ah But I think just thinking about some of the things that we've talked about in terms of moves into online, flexible skills provision. I mean, the challenge is, really massive when you think about where a lot of universities are.
00:20:14
Speaker
If we think about things like micro-credentials, it's having the capability to um interface with the market, to develop courses that people actually want to take. There's that skill.
00:20:25
Speaker
There's the skill of making that visible for adult learners. This isn't going to schools, advertising on UCAS. This is going out and getting learners in a crowded marketplace where it's not just, you as Martin said, it's not just universities you're competing with, it's a whole bunch of other people you're competing with.
00:20:44
Speaker
Then you've got to have the systems that enable people to enroll, to to deal with the payments, to deal with all of that kind of seamless onboarding kind of process. And you've got to be good at delivering on those fundamentals of student experience, learning and teaching and get people through.
00:20:59
Speaker
and all of the stuff in the back end. So the challenge is, and yeah in many senses, this is a challenge of online learning, irrespective of whether we're talking about skills and micro-credentials, but it is a massive challenge. And so the challenge is probably a bit more fixed, but you know every institution you go into has a different flavour, different buy-in in terms of government governance, different systems, different stages.
00:21:25
Speaker
So I ah yeah I tried to veer away from the one size fits all. I think the challenge is fairly consistent across the piece. But I think you have to ah you have to think of that as a bespoke thing. And I think that relates to some of the sort of examples. I've been in the room over a number of years when people have announced something that people are very jealous about, which they will be with Sam's thing.
00:21:48
Speaker
and And that's not going to work at every institution, um frankly. So um you've got to kind of find your lane, really. Yeah, instinctively, I'm uncomfortable with the skunkworks idea because often I think it is less a skunkworks than a quarantine ward.
00:22:08
Speaker
And, you know, like we can have the change over there, but hopefully it doesn't infect anywhere else. And i worry that that happens too often. And and instead, we have to infuse change within the institution as a whole.
00:22:22
Speaker
And sometimes that's going to be difficult. And it's difficult for leaders right now because they're under attack from all sides. And so it's it's it's it's hard to find that cover. I think the skunkworks one is an interesting debate for for now, because you could make the argument and say ah five, six years ago, maybe online was a little less familiar in the UK, and therefore a skunkworks approach would be more um would be maybe a better approach.
00:22:50
Speaker
But when we talked about all of the bigger picture stuff that a driving is driving change, government agendas... Actually, maybe now is the time where actually there's a fundamental transformation and reorientation that's needed across the piece rather than just scaling up this little online operation to the side. And I know it doesn't always work like that, but maybe now is the time actually that you've got to kind of grasp the nettle and and think about this as a more of an institution-wide transformation.
Leadership and Innovation in Education
00:23:19
Speaker
It's easier said than done. Easy for me to say. but Well, that's why we're up here. We don't have to do it. We just talk about it. That's our role. yeah yeah um and One thing I would add, and people are uncomfortable with it, but I think it's just a reality. So much of this is leader-driven.
00:23:32
Speaker
It's up to the VC here. It's up to the president in the US. And so what I most often find like you know bespoke solutions, but almost always it depends on who the top champion leader is.
00:23:47
Speaker
And are they truly going to drive change? Do you have a Michael Crow like you do at ASU? This is the approach that's going to happen that's going to work. If you have somebody else, it wouldn't work that way. But so much of it is dependent on that.
00:24:00
Speaker
That might not be healthy. I just think it's a reality. Yeah, and I think we've we've reflected a lot on some of the big players in the US s and their journey a little bit. and And, you you know Southern New Hampshire is an interesting case that people will know of. And, ah you know, correct me if I'm wrong, I think they came from a sort of fairly existential place to get to the place where where they're at And i was having a conversation the other day where people were talking about the fact that money was injected into the sector when the tuition fees increased. And they were hoping that innovation would come on the back of that. And it didn't.
00:24:32
Speaker
ah across generalisation, but didn't. I think actually, although things are difficult at the moment and financially difficult, I actually think now is actually probably better conditions for people to innovate when there's an existential challenge um And I'm so I'm simm hope, although it's difficult in the sector at the moment, in the yeah UK, especially, i'm I'm more hopeful for innovation and change, because I think those conditions are much more powerful to drive that than, you know, having a lot of money, frankly.
00:25:04
Speaker
i i firmly believe that and innovation comes from constraints, not from abundance. um And I think the existential crisis so many schools are facing and the existential crisis on not knowing how generative AI is going to change the role of the credential and the credibility.
00:25:23
Speaker
I think those... are the what's going to make change ripe and even stronger in the future. But with that, um thank you very much for inviting us, for you guys sitting in pre-production and the podcast.
00:25:35
Speaker
It's been a wonderful summit. And leave your tips up at the front for us. Thank you.
00:25:42
Speaker
and a