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Breaking the Chains of Colorism: Dr. Amy Alexander on Resilience, Identity, and Advocating for Change
3 Plays3 months ago
What if the color of your skin dictated the way you were treated in society, your opportunities, and even your self-worth? Join us for a compelling conversation with Dr. Amy Alexander as we unpack the origins and enduring impact of colorism, from colonial times to present-day media and workplace dynamics. Through the lens of personal stories, including the remarkable journey of my dark-skinned grandfather in the Caribbean, we illuminate the resilience needed to overcome such pervasive biases.
We shine a light on the unique struggles faced by Black women, as Dr. Alexander dives deep into the historical and contemporary beauty standards that favor lighter skin tones. We discuss cultural moments like Lil' Kim's transformation and the Crown Act, underscoring the ongoing battle for acceptance and the celebration of natural beauty among young Black girls. By addressing the harmful psychological effects of colorism and the spiral of silence that keeps people from speaking out, we aim to empower our listeners to take action in their own lives and communities.
Exploring the broader implications of systemic inequities, we tackle the need for reparations and the complex experiences of biracial individuals navigating racial identity. Through discussions on affirmative action and historical injustices, we highlight the importance of open dialogue and education in driving societal change. Reflecting on the emotional and psychological toll of colorism, we emphasize the need for healing generational trauma through therapy and fostering a more inclusive society. Tune in for an enlightening and inspiring episode that calls for awareness, advocacy, and action against colorism.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 170
00:00:01
Speaker
All right, hello everyone, how's it going? Welcome back to the show. This is James Paris edition, and this will be episode 170 with Dr. Amy Alexander. This will be part two of our episode series. So before it was a general interview with her, and now we're going to focus more on a specialized topic.
00:00:27
Speaker
regarding colorism, generational trauma, and a little bit of the research I've done and maybe some median communications jargon that I'm somewhat familiar with relating to this topic too for a unique twist. And after we're done discussing that, we will get into the general interview and just discuss what's been said. And again, I think it will be pretty good. Let's get started.
Understanding Colorism
00:00:53
Speaker
So to start this off,
00:00:57
Speaker
We're going to be looking at colorism. So colorism is essentially a form of discrimination on skin color. It has a deep historical influence. It has an influence on societal power dynamics. And it can be traced back to many historical contexts and its impact continues today in society. The origins of colorism.
00:01:20
Speaker
First started with colonial legacy. It's linked to the colonial era. And it's basically the mistreatment and categorization of individuals on skin color. Generally what you'll find, again, this is in a lot of communities, lighter skin individuals will receive more privilege than darker skinned individuals. Regarding cultural influences, it also is associated with historical perceptions of beauty.
00:01:50
Speaker
specific to different immunities. Lighter skin people might be considered more beautiful than darker people. Now, the modern manifestations, it's shown profusely in media, the workplaces, and anywhere that's prevalent in society. Now,
00:02:12
Speaker
ways we could deal with colorism. It can be done through awareness, educating individuals about colorism, empowerment, empowering individuals by showing them that they can embrace their unique forms of beauty. And then, you know, advocating for policies to promote equality and also better or more fair treatment.
Media's Role in Perpetuating Colorism
00:02:36
Speaker
So the media's role in perpetuating colorism, first of all, it's representation.
00:02:42
Speaker
Reinforcing biases. You see this all the time. A lot of times, usually in media or in positions of power, you might see lighter complexion people. Stereotypes. There's certain caricatures depending on people with darker skin tones, especially during the Jim Crow era with blackface. You'll notice there's that deep stereotype towards darker people, which in itself is wrong.
00:03:11
Speaker
This is just how it was portrayed at the time. Inclusivity, so this is another one. And essentially by creating a more inclusive environment, bringing together different colors of people, portraying that level of equality, that's another portion of it too.
00:03:30
Speaker
Additionally, people who might be on that spectrum of colorism where they deal with those forms of oppression, it can affect self-esteem. It can also lead to psychological strain as well. And it could also lead to community dynamics. I think the psychological strain will be an interesting topic throughout this interview because I think that's a topic that we really be hitting a lot of due to the psychology experience.
00:04:00
Speaker
Additionally, we're going to be looking at the historical context. So basically, colorism is rooted in a lot of things with significance. So it can be shaped in many different narratives. It's embedded in many societal structures. I at least know, from my experience in the Caribbean at least, my grandfather, he was very, very toxic. And he dealt with a lot of oppression.
00:04:28
Speaker
It was only until he actually got his PhD in biomedical engineering and became a huge professor at the University of the West Indies that he actually overcame that. But again, it's these types of things that play a role. This is not something that's old.
00:04:48
Speaker
And the reclamation of identity, it's a testament to the individuals in the face of systematic discrimination. So that's all kind of a part of what I mentioned. So gender, it intersects with gender bias, and it affects desirability and worth based on the general skin tone.
00:05:11
Speaker
And empowerment efforts, you know, I think colorism can also play a role in maybe equalizing the genders a bit more because the same way colorism can influence groups of people, it can also influence the way genders are perceived as well, especially amongst women, you could imagine.
The Power of Education Against Colorism
00:05:34
Speaker
education and advocacy. So implementing educational programs to address colorism is also important. Teaching people about its scholarly research, understanding the different aspects of it, and other efforts too. Now, this is when we kind of go into a different area here.
00:05:53
Speaker
So what is the spiral of silence? The spiral of silence is basically a media communication theory that states that if you are within a certain minority, you're gonna have a smaller chance of being able to speak out about a specific issue. So for example, if you live in a very conservative area and you might have a certain belief system like your pro-choice,
00:06:22
Speaker
Because you're the minority in that area, you're going to have a stronger likelihood of being silent about the particular issue. This same problem propagates as well with colorism too.
00:06:35
Speaker
because of societal pressures, because of fears of not conforming to society, people don't want to speak up about these. They don't wanna talk about it in length. And it leads to problems such as this, because the number one reason why we can't go back to actually addressing the issue is because a lot of people know it's true, but they're afraid to speak out about it because they believe in the sense that they're the minority.
00:07:03
Speaker
So yeah, that was sort of the general gist of what I've personally studied. But again, Dr. Alexander is a bit more of an expert on this. So we'll have her opinion on this and yeah, we'll continue to discuss it. Okay, so how are you today? I'm doing well, how about you? Doing great. So what's your opinion so far on all this?
00:07:33
Speaker
I agree with what you've put before us. I think this goes way back before even America existed to Europe. And it has infected every culture almost. When I think about Indians, I mean Indians from Pakistan and India, those Pakistanis and different areas,
00:07:59
Speaker
I remember speaking to people about skin tone from their cultures. And again, lighter is so much more of value to them because it's closer to what Europeans look like and what has been held as the standard of beauty and what we all at some point aspire to or thought we should aspire to. I mean, all of us. Everywhere colonialism has happened, there's colorism, you know.
00:08:25
Speaker
Look at South Africa, look at even, you know, like you were talking about, the West Indies and those areas. I think, you know, in the last few years, we're coming to realize those, and when I say few, like maybe 20, 15, 20 years, we're coming to realize that that's not the case and that's not true. I remember as a little girl, I was trying to, I was trying to, but I remember looking at like Ebony and Essence magazine, this little girl in the 80s and,
00:08:55
Speaker
just seeing light-skinned women, and my mother's the one who actually pointed it out, like light-skinned women were on the cover a lot more often than dark-skinned women or even brown-skinned women, you know, and they had a lot of European features. So this is what we also were used to looking at and seeing
00:09:13
Speaker
and valuing, right, without even knowing it. And you think about the doll test, do you remember that? The two doctors, the social workers who did the test, the doll test with the white doll and the black doll asking black children what was prettier, was this one smarter or was this one dirty or bad or good? So these things have been reinforced again for generations and
00:09:36
Speaker
That's the trauma we see like black today, if you want me to go into this today, we see these like the crown act and different things like that for for hair that people can.
00:09:48
Speaker
that people have fought for to wear their own natural hair in spaces of professionalism and stuff like that. But for the most part, we see Black women walking around with straightened hair, right? Artificially straightened hair, as in getting a relaxer, getting it straightened, blown out, stuff like that. And that's part of the trauma of being not considered attractive in this nation.
00:10:12
Speaker
And I know it goes on in other places outside of America, but I can only speak to hear what I've experienced. And so I think it's, again, generations of
Unlearning Generational Colorist Ideas
00:10:26
Speaker
being taught one thing, and now we're beginning to try to unlearn, write, and relearn the right way, hopefully, about color and the caste system and
00:10:41
Speaker
all the things that we've kind of just taken for granted up until recently. I also wanted to say May is Mental Health Awareness Month. I have my little pin on right here. So maybe people could take a little bit of time to learn something about mental health that they might not do otherwise. So this is perfect timing for us. Excellent. What's your opinion on colorism and sort of
00:11:11
Speaker
the way it played a role in your life specifically? I think that people, I remember being young, girls would say, well, you think you're cute. I'd be like, how do they know what I think? And I didn't think I was cute. I still don't think I'm cute. But I remember telling my mother and her saying, well, Amy, that's their insecurities and that's their, you know, I'm in elementary school. I don't fully comprehend these things, but
00:11:40
Speaker
As I've grown older and had more experiences and learned more, of course, I see the pain, you know, of a lot of dark-skinned black women, the things that they've been subjected to that I have not experienced. You know, I look at, I think about, like, little Kim.
00:12:02
Speaker
the rapper, Kimberly Denise Jones, and how the progression of her transformation from what she naturally was, a beautiful black woman, to
Societal Beauty Standards and Psychological Impact
00:12:17
Speaker
where she is now. I wish I had pictures of what she looked like when she was younger. I've seen. I know what you're talking about.
00:12:26
Speaker
And I think, again, that's part of the trauma of not feeling accepted, of not being okay in a society that values a more narrow nose, thinner lips, straight hair, a thin body.
00:12:41
Speaker
And that's just naturally not really most Black women's aesthetics. We don't look like that. And we've been taught that that's not pretty. So yeah, yeah. It's a deep, insidious thing. And I believe that a lot of Black women struggle with their hair comes from that.
00:13:09
Speaker
And it's odd, James, because back in antebellum times, black women were forced to put their hair up because it was so beautiful. And the white women were kind of intimidated by it and jealous of it. And they didn't want their men being attracted to it. So that's where those bonnets and things kind of originated is to hide our hair. And I think we're still in a lot of ways doing that.
00:13:37
Speaker
physically, but theoretically and psychologically, we're getting, and I've had relaxers, I've had things done in my hair, have it blown out. Sometimes I like it straight, and I don't think that's always a, you're traumatized, so you're just wearing your hair like that. Sometimes it is aesthetic, but I would like black women, especially little black girls to know you can wear your hair out natural and you're beautiful. You're beautiful.
00:14:05
Speaker
I see a lot more of that and a lot more afros these days, and I'm glad. It's unfortunate that we have to make laws, though, so black women can wear their hairstyles, you know? And even when we think about it, it affects every part. Remember the young black swimmer? She couldn't use the swimming cap that she needed for her hair to stay, you know, because it wasn't regulation or whatever. So it affects so many areas of life.
00:14:37
Speaker
but I'm glad that it's changing. I'm just sad that it's taken so long and that it takes laws to actually, you know, make this happen. It's insane. Excellent. And you know, do you think colorism also plays a role when it comes to a discussion we had before in our last talk about generational trauma? I absolutely do because think about, um,
00:15:04
Speaker
enslavement. Think about, and this is the part where I actually feel sad for some of the white women who had to endure this, but their husbands were, you know, making babies with enslaved women, right? So you could tell the lighter skinned kids, you know, and they look like your husband coming into your house because they had the privilege, right, of being a little bit more protected than
00:15:31
Speaker
those who were not produced by the masters or overseers or you know owners or plantation owners. So it started way back I mean I'm sure it was before that but here in this country it's been going on for so long. I mean we they separated us by our skin tone and sometimes it was because our fathers were you know
00:15:54
Speaker
the owners of the plantation, but other times it was just because they saw value in being lighter. So I think, yes, it has affected all black people, to be honest, in this country. And I think it certainly has affected me because as a child, and even as an adult, people are always asking me, what are you? You know, I'm sure a lot of people get that question, but
00:16:21
Speaker
I don't know why it's so important and significant except for the hierarchy that's been created in this nation. And really, race is just a kind of, and biology are theoretical, right? They're human conceptions. They're man-made things because there's really no biological difference in people of different races. Biology, I'm talking about. There is a biological difference.
00:16:51
Speaker
There are physical manifestations that are different, like skin tone and hair color, hair texture, things like that. But it affects the whole system. I mean, think about the history of this country. It's so based in a hierarchy of race that we don't even realize sometimes how deep it is. It's so deep that, and I think you might have read someone in a dissertation, but I talk about racial identity development.
00:17:21
Speaker
And there are theories of that, like how Black folks, and they have ones for biracial people and white, they have the racial identity development models and theories, but there are stages that a lot of Black folks go through in order to get to who they are. And one is like when you realize that you're actually not valued by this country, even though you're a citizen. You know, like James Butler said, you're in America, but you're not American. You don't get to experience the benefits of being an American.
00:17:49
Speaker
And there's one that I use in my dissertation, particularly it's called Nigressin. And Dr. William Cross came up with that in the 1970s. And there are like five steps to Nigressin. And the first one is a pre-encounter where you're kind of, you get introduced to
00:18:13
Speaker
the white dominant culture, and you think you're a part of it, right? And so you try to fit in, and you're largely unaware of what is race and racial things, because you're a child. And the one that changes things is encounter. And I can pinpoint, for me, there have been, I guess, many moments. And even for my daughters, you remember that moment when you knew you were Black.
00:18:41
Speaker
when someone said something to you where you weren't included in a situation or people didn't value your insight or your input. I mean, you know, whenever that happened, right? And you realize, I'm not like these people. I'm not ever going to fit in fully with white folks. And that's kind of a hard thing to experience and to go through.
Struggles of Black Identity in America
00:19:09
Speaker
It's the reality that you can never be truly American because America does not accept you as you are. So yeah, there's there's like immersion and immersion, internalization and internalization and commitment. So those are the other steps of of digressence, but people can look that up and figure it, you know, but the point being that
00:19:35
Speaker
many people have looked into and studied this process, right, of us becoming Black, of realizing in that moment that I am never going to be like these other folks, these other Americans, because I'm Black and I'm different and I'm going to be treated differently. And oftentimes, you know, I want to say
00:19:58
Speaker
When I was taking a sociology class in undergrad school, we were talking about skin tone and different things like that. And the professor said, well, sometimes companies will hire the darker skinned people because they stand out more.
00:20:12
Speaker
And it just shows that, hey, we're diverse and we're welcoming everyone. So it can work many ways. And I think, again, the dominant culture knows how to kind of manipulate and maneuver those things in order to kind of make us feel a little bit comfortable in some spaces and to make themselves look like they're helpful when they're not.
00:20:39
Speaker
That does make sense. Speaking of companies, what's your opinion on companies maybe prioritizing or hiring specific minorities more often because of maybe colorism or other factors such as
Affirmative Action and Reparations
00:20:55
Speaker
this? Do you think it's a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Or maybe colleges maybe referring minorities in general? What's your thoughts on that colorism?
00:21:05
Speaker
Are you are you speaking about like how the word is escaping you right now, but preference in terms of race? Yeah, that's what I'm asking. I can't think of the word, but those things. I think this country owes us that if you want to know the truth. I think this country I just saw an article how like the government took like six billion dollars from black folks
00:21:34
Speaker
through taxes and different methods of kind of taking wealth from our community. You know, when you talk about Black Wall Street and Greenwood and those things, when white society, and this doesn't include every white person, I'm talking about just the system, not individual people. When they saw us doing well, they destroyed what we built. So, yeah, I think
00:22:00
Speaker
I think they owe us more than 10% of, you know, we're talking about affirmative action. That's the word I couldn't think of. When we're talking about those things, I mean, I believe in reparations. We built, our ancestors built this country literally. And in many ways, I'm talking about other creative, you know, endeavors and things like that. So, and here's the part that I think
00:22:24
Speaker
kind of irks some people, and then those people irk my soul. They think that Black folks and brown folks are getting hired because of their skin tone or because of their ethnic background or heritage. Well, really, we're being hired because in the past, even though we were qualified and perhaps even more qualified than the white person who got the job, we didn't get the job.
00:22:48
Speaker
So just because you see somebody in affirmative action or in a racial minority preference situation, that doesn't mean we're unqualified. It means that America or some corporations or some entities are actually trying to make up for the disparities that have happened in the past.
00:23:08
Speaker
People forget about that. People forget about, and I won't even get too much into this, but the history of Israel and how the Jews, and I am Jewish, got that piece of land that they've been fighting over with Palestine. People forget that things were given and taken unfairly through violence and oppression.
00:23:37
Speaker
And so I think we should get more than 10% if they set aside. And the Supreme Court is doing all they can today to make sure that it seems like that Black folks don't get the same level of education. They're making it difficult for folks to vote, which is extremely important in my mind. So I think colorism is, yes, there are people who make it.
00:24:07
Speaker
get jobs, and get positions. And I'm sure a lot of people doing the hiring and doing the acceptance of people into certain programs or educational spaces are not necessarily conscious of the people that they're choosing. But it is easier to choose somebody who looks like you or somebody who you believe has more in common with you than other people that you've interviewed or talked to or something like that. We all like pretty people.
00:24:35
Speaker
And if we associate being light with pretty, that's a privilege right there. And I recognize my proximity to whiteness and that I'm sure I have privilege. And I've had privilege in spaces that before I looked pretty well educated, I didn't realize. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure it plays, if not a kind of obvious role, at least an indirect space, kind of.
00:25:05
Speaker
unconscious thing about skin tone. Why is it that, what is your opinion on maybe the way colorism can affect, I forgot my question. I was going to go into a other topic for something.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, but I think, you know, what I was thinking of was generally how colorism can actually be fixed. How do you think colorism can actually be dealt with in a positive way to kind of overcome this issue? And do you think it could be done in an ethical way or a way that's actually possible? I think, honestly, like I think all things, it has to start in the Black community. It has to start with us because
00:26:02
Speaker
It is us. And as I say with trauma, it might be traumatized is not your fault, but now it's your responsibility to address it so that you can heal from it and move on. I think black folks can fix this. I think we need to be educated and get in our mind that there's no really such thing as a light skin thing and how we associate, you know, I don't know certain things with that and how we associate certain things with being dark skin. You know, these are all,
00:26:31
Speaker
residuals of enslavement and all the things that came after that in our system, you know, Jim Crow, convict leasing, institutional discrimination. I mean, there's thing after thing after thing. So I think when we change our language, somebody else, I was talking to somebody else earlier today and they used a word. And I can't remember what it was, but words are really important.
00:27:01
Speaker
They're not just like things that interchange with anything. I mean, and I believe people kind of say what they mean. But I think the language that we use in the black community around race and color needs to change because when we start changing our language, then we communicate with our young people the ways that we want them to think and grow up.
00:27:31
Speaker
I think, yeah, it can be changed and healed and addressed, but I don't think white people can do it. I don't think white people are even interested in doing it. I don't even think they have a deep understanding of how it affects us in the black community. So it has to start with us. We have to stop saying the things that we say around race. Somebody the other day called me a redbone and I was like,
00:27:58
Speaker
Can we just call me my name or something? So the language is important. The language, the way that we talk to our children, the things that we teach them. And I do see a lot more of that these days, to be honest. I see a lot of beautiful, amazing, dark-skinned black women gracing the pages of major magazines and being in high fashion shows.
00:28:29
Speaker
So things are changing. I guess I think you can heal, but I don't think we can look to, I don't think we can look to any community outside of ourselves, honestly, to address the things that we experience because only we experience it. And I think like native Americans or indigenous peoples, their experience to me is the closest to black folks experience their journey. But, and even in that, it's still very different.
00:28:56
Speaker
So, yes, I think I have hope for that, that it can be addressed and healed. I think, though, I don't have a plan for that, but I think it has to start with us, you know, like everything else has to start with us. We cannot depend on outside entities, you know. And, yes, they can be allies and they can be supportive, but we must change. We must change, and that's the problem, because it's been hundreds of years we've been in this mindset, right?
00:29:24
Speaker
I feel like I just want to travel all over the country and talk to people individually and just, you know, come on, let's do this. But I do have hope it can change. Excellent.
Resource Inequality in Black Communities
00:29:36
Speaker
And it's time to take a back step to maybe food stamps and maybe the way those might affect the community as a whole. And if you've heard of food deserts before,
00:29:52
Speaker
where in certain locations, food sources might be lower. There might be issues regarding food, like I think, for example, I think I was reading some type of research how Safeway, for example, in maybe a location where I'm in, it might be a lot more higher level, but in a more majority black area, the Safeway is much more lower quality. And higher price. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:30:18
Speaker
you know, that lower quality of goods, those types of things. But what's your opinion on all of that? There's actually a neighborhood here in the city of Pittsburgh that has experienced that and had like a grocery store come in and then they were only there a very short period of time. I don't know if people think that people who are kind of going through living in low socioeconomic status
00:30:47
Speaker
don't deserve certain things or don't need certain things or don't value certain things. And I think that also could be connected to enslavement and those times because Black folks got what to eat when they were enslaved. The leftovers, the scraps, the stuff the third masters and overseers didn't want, right? So that's how they made different dishes like chitlins.
00:31:15
Speaker
I don't know if you've ever eaten chickens or if you ever smelled them cooking, but they stink to high heaven to me. But that's the intestines of the pig. But if all you have is that what is left over after everybody else gets what they get, then that's what you're used to, right? And I think oftentimes corporations and businesses who own
00:31:45
Speaker
grocery stores and things like that, think that they'll have a high level of loss because of stealing. I think that insurance might be high in some areas where there's high crime. And oftentimes, inner city areas have those numbers that corporations and insurance companies look at.
00:32:13
Speaker
but also not realizing that those things are also a manifestation of trauma and of not getting what we were promised and not getting what we deserve in this country. So I think it takes a very special company to kind of go into a space like that and create a world where there are fresh produce items, where there are
00:32:36
Speaker
you know, fresh vegetables at reasonable prices where they're not stocked all the time with all the sugar filled things. And yeah, I think it's a hard decision for a company. But I also think that if companies go into these communities and talk with them and get their input as to what they would like in a space that they could get people on board and that they would be invested and they would have some type of
00:33:07
Speaker
connection, right, as a stakeholder in that plate, in that grocery store being in their community and be proud of it, you know. And not to mention just basic convenience because oftentimes if you don't have a lot of money then you might not have transportation, you know, how do you get your food? And then we get into all these, you know, grocery delivery. I know groceries get delivered. I went grocery shopping this morning. I don't want anybody delivering the groceries. I'm going to touch what I buy. I don't want to see what it is.
00:33:32
Speaker
But so sometimes people get into and then that affects the financial thing, which you were talking about earlier, right? Because there's not enough money to kind of do all these things, but you got to eat. So I think that's just part of that is just a part of the big kind of system that
00:33:56
Speaker
keeps people, and it's not even just race, you know, it's people who are living in poverty, you know, regardless of race, who cannot seem to get ahead because it reminds me of sharecropping, right? Whenever black folks were, you know, freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, they had nowhere to go. They had nothing to do. They had, I mean, they had no land. So what they did was what rent spaces of land off of their probably former owners,
00:34:25
Speaker
And the owners, of course, said, well, this land is going to cost you this to raise this. And then you buy the goods. The goods are probably higher, even back then, like they are neighborhoods with low socioeconomic status today. So then you got this high rate of interest because you just got free. Where do you have money? Did you save money? Were you getting paid? No. So again, people forget the start line for Black folks is way back here. And they expect us to be
00:34:55
Speaker
equal in many ways with them when we haven't even been given the resources that we were promised, by the way, by the United States government to be able to function, to be able to make a life for ourselves, to be able to create generational wealth for our children. And it's just all pieces of the structure. And for me, you know, I just, we need people, we need warriors really in each of these spaces.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I've been fortunate enough to connect with some people who I believe are warriors who are fighting for equity and long-term equity in places of like finance and education, as medicine and communication. So it's going to take a lot. I mean, there's still people, as you see in this world, hanging on to those old ways. They just want to go back to the good old days. And I cannot help but think that that is related to race.
00:35:52
Speaker
I'm just going to say it. It's racism. I'm not even going to try to couch it. You know, just out and out racism. The people want the good old days to return and for Black folks and other people of color to not reach our full potential. And that's a problem. And we have to fight. And it irks me too also when people say, well, I'm not into politics.
00:36:15
Speaker
Well, in order to sustain a democracy, we all have to be into politics. That's the very essence and basis of what a democracy is, is the citizens being informed and controlling who gets the power through their vote. I know there have been obstacles. And I know there are things that have been put in our way on purpose. But there have also been people who have fought those things. Regardless, if you agree how they fight those things, they fight. And sometimes we just
00:36:45
Speaker
You know, kind of take advantage of that or take it
Emotional Toll of Racism and Microaggressions
00:36:49
Speaker
for granted. Let me say that. But every system, every system, you know, the food deserts are sometimes on purpose. I'm going to tell you something. I went to, I live in a decent area community, right? So I go to the wines and spirits store. They have all the shelves set up and everything and it's nice and, you know, I have a certain thing that I buy. So I bought it.
00:37:14
Speaker
One day I was driving my daughter somewhere, and it was a less privileged neighborhood. Let's say it that way. So I went to a liquor store. I was like, oh, where's my thing? I found my little wine that I like. And it was like more money there. It was more money in the less privileged neighborhood, same store. You understand? Like same company. And so it's not just something that's in the past. It's today. And there's all types of ways that people are
00:37:43
Speaker
being oppressed and being kind of almost picked that little by little so that you give up. You know, it's like that daily struggle, that daily fight that we experience. It's like exhausting to, you know, try to explain my hair or my heritage or how I got my job or why I look like this or, you know, different things. And I've just kind of stopped engaging in that. I do like having
00:38:11
Speaker
serious conversations with people around these things, but not the ones who are just antagonistic. You know, I'm not being roped into or sucked into that type of interaction anymore. If you want to know something, you know, you can go pick up a book or you can Google it or whatever. But, you know, yeah, every system, every one.
00:38:41
Speaker
And again, that's why I left education. I just could not, it was not benefiting the students that I served. And I had nothing to school. I was at was about 73, 75, 76% black students. We had students from Africa. We had students from various other places, many, many of Asian descent and, and, and of course white students.
00:39:06
Speaker
A lot of whom were living in poverty, and it wasn't serving any of them as far as I can tell. Perhaps the ones that are way, way up, the ones that are capable of doing AP Calc, they might have been insulated somewhat from some of the discrepancies and discrimination, and they might have benefited somehow from the education, but I think really,
00:39:34
Speaker
the socialization part of education. And now, you know, people, I don't know, just don't feel comfortable with us reading about history. So those books can't be read. Fortunately, that is people have not, you know, tried to be that radical to ban books and things like that, that I know of. But, you know, we're trying to, the system is trying to diseducate us or trick us into believing that
00:40:03
Speaker
A lot of things didn't happen is in our mind. And I think that's the way we live daily, too. Like, is that in my head? Did they just say something racist to me and I'm, you know, overreacting or, you know, I think we all have struggled with that. Like, somebody says something, does something. Later on, we're thinking, should I say something? Was that racist or was it just me feeling, you know, whatever I feel? But even that adds stress and anxiety to us as Black folks, just because people want to touch our hair.
00:40:34
Speaker
You know what I mean? Or say something crazy. And we have to kind of process that, right? And sometimes we internalize it because we feel bad if we didn't say something, right? Or we, you know, it's just a daily struggle. All those little things. And again, I think I told you last time, research shows that those daily stressors that Black folks and other people of color
00:41:02
Speaker
live with are more impactful in terms of health and longevity of life than like one huge incident. Because every day, you know, we expect it almost, it's almost expected when you, you know, somebody's going to do something or say something today. And I'm rarely wrong about that.
Trust and Education in Racial Dynamics
00:41:22
Speaker
How do you think colorism played a role while you were in the education system? And do you think that may have played a role in the fact that you wanted to leave, no matter how small that reason may have been, compared to maybe your brand new reason? I'll tell you, sometimes I think, I need to learn how to turn my phone. Sometimes I think that it made people hesitate, like Black folks, to trust me.
00:41:52
Speaker
And it reminded me of the 1960s. And I remember, I think I told you, the woman was saying, you know, life and people were suspect because they were wondering if, you know, what are you here for and are you going to infiltrate, you know, in our system and things like that. But so I think I had to earn people's trust and I'm okay with that. You know, I'm completely okay with that. I think it,
00:42:22
Speaker
I was asked a lot by students. What are you, you know, mainly students, not necessarily my colleagues or adults. And again, that question that that's something that makes me think a lot a lot deeper than I think what people.
00:42:40
Speaker
asking the question understand. But I believe I had to kind of earn people's trust in that space. I think sometimes people thought, oh, she's trying to be white because I wanted more education. And again, that slave mentality that we have not yet overcome kicks in.
00:43:02
Speaker
And just because I want, you know, advanced degrees or want to be better educated doesn't make me closer to white or wanting to be white. I've had people ask me like, you know, like kids, if there was a race world, what side would you be on? You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I have, you know, had conversations with students around colorism and being
00:43:31
Speaker
light or being dark. I've been told that I'm not black enough in those spaces. And I've had my feelings hurt in those spaces too. And I don't know if, again, people consciously understand that they're choosing light skin over someone dark skin. I think they just think
00:44:00
Speaker
This is a better person. Oftentimes, you know, this is more qualified. But those lies of, you know, of our history fill their head too. So it's really hard to be objective in those spaces. And honestly, white folks who really want to be equitable, really want to be allies and advocates, you know, because ally, I think, you know, you're saying you're standing with us, you know, but advocates actually do something.
00:44:29
Speaker
They actually take action. So yes, we need those. We need allies. We need advocates. But we need people who are really willing to consciously make an effort to change their minds. And there's not a lot of people out there like that. In fact, there's not a lot of systems out there. When I go into systems and talk about generational trauma and having ways in the workplace to kind of deal with that or in schools,
00:44:57
Speaker
The systems don't want to change because they want to maintain their power. Right. The state says you've got to have this training on trauma. So they bring me in as the expert on trauma. But you know one visit or two visits to an institution doesn't change things. It doesn't. And sometimes that's my dilemma. And but I don't know what people think when they see me today if you know they
00:45:24
Speaker
I think I've had to make it clear a lot of times that I was black earlier on in my life. People would say things to me, educators would say things to me about kids. Excuse me, I'm all fucked up things about kids and these are kids. They're just going to end up in jail or if it was my kid, if it was a white kid, they wouldn't have gotten away with that.
00:45:53
Speaker
I mean, I've been told I favor the black kids. I've been told a lot of things, but just because I'm white does not mean that you can talk to me wrong about black folks. So sometimes I have to make that very clear that I'm not you and I'm not with you on that. And again, that's fascinating because when you talk about colorism, it also kind of goes into this idea that
00:46:22
Speaker
you occasionally get thrown on the fence if you're not really thrown into either category. And I'm just curious though, how does that make you feel as a person when people say those things? Because I mean, me personally, I've never really been in that situation where I've been thrown on that fence. It's funny because with my appearance, a lot of people,
00:46:50
Speaker
let's say I'm two black or something along those lines, but with you, you know, it's sort of, we're not really thrown onto either side. So how does that kind of make you feel? I could imagine it's, it hits you in a different type of way. And you probably can relate to a very small, unique group of people I could imagine. I think like when we talk about racial identity development,
00:47:20
Speaker
and we talk about biracial people, there's a choice group and categorization and things like that. And I think we make choices, and I'll say me, since we're talking about me, I just really never, I'm sure there's issues of rejection. I mean, I know there are for me around race and identity and things like that. Cause I told you like I was disinvited to birthday parties, you know, couldn't go into the pool, even though my mom took me into the pool or the local amusement park.
00:47:50
Speaker
when it was there. But I think, I'm sorry, it's a lot. I chose early on. I chose early on that I was going to identify as Black. Not early, early, but, you know, and I've had conversations with my mom, you know, whenever she was alive. And she was like, but why do you reject me? Why do you reject my heritage and my side? And mommy, it's not like rejecting you, I'm just
00:48:18
Speaker
moving into a space where I feel most comfortable. And I mean that when I say that. I could not imagine being a white woman. I couldn't imagine. I don't even identify as biracial. I identify as black. That is where my spirit is. That's where my soul is, I believe. So some of us biracial people make a choice. And some biracial people get mad because others of us make a choice. I've seen siblings who, one was
00:48:46
Speaker
identified as black and in other words, identify as biracial or white or something, you know, same parents, just their parents was, you know, somewhat different. But yeah, I remember having to change my race in college. Like they used to give us these things, you fill out your name and, you know, your dorm room and your religion and different things like that and race. And I, I don't know if I left a blank or I had to put black
00:49:13
Speaker
And I think the professor or somebody might have checked it for me because I left a blank. So when I applied for a specific scholarship that was for black students only, they were like, well, you're not black. So I was like, yes, I am. So they said, on your paperwork, it says you're white. So I had to go to the office, whatever, the student affairs or whatever, and change my race to qualify for that.
00:49:43
Speaker
Scholarship, specific scholarship. I remember that. Somebody else put white for me because I guess they thought I was white. And that's just that little incident right there. You know how long we could talk about that? At least you and I could. Somebody decided for me what I was taking my power, my autonomy away.
00:50:10
Speaker
And so that's just one little moment or incident of something. And I know Black folks go through this all the time. And that's where the stress comes from. Like, why do I got to go do extra work if somebody decided to choose for me what I am?
Historic Manipulation of Racial Dynamics
00:50:24
Speaker
And oftentimes, that's what colorism does, right? Well, you're light skinned, so you must be that. Or you're dark skinned, so you must be that. And again, all this goes right on back to enslavement and antebella times. And it's traumatizing.
00:50:41
Speaker
It is traumatizing. If you've ever heard of, I used to teach it in class, too. There was a letter written. And I guess some people were saying it's fake or whatever, that it wasn't really written by this gentleman who wrote it. But his first name was James, but I can't think of the last name. But he was supposedly hired. He owned land in the West Indies. He was a slave owner.
00:51:11
Speaker
He would come and talk to the slave owners of Virginia and the other colonies that held slaves and tell them how to control their slaves and different things like that. And that was one of the things. Pick them against each other. Make sure that the life skinned people, the life skinned enslaved people don't trust the dark skinned slave people. Make sure that you separate men and women so they can work together and communicate so they don't trust each other. It was all part of
00:51:39
Speaker
And even if that, let's say that's not real, that necessarily isn't like that person didn't exist, but that theory and that theme and those tactics did exist. When you think about how they abused black men with battle royale, that drives me insane. When they used to tie a hand, one hand behind the child, a young person's back and blindfold them and put them in this space with another black child or black man,
00:52:07
Speaker
and make them beat the crap out of each other. You know, when they used to use, you know, darker skinned black men to kind of, you know, to produce, to engage with various women to produce bulls or what the masters thought would be strong, useful slaves, you know. Yeah. And the light-skinned women were subject to, you know, a whole bunch of,
00:52:37
Speaker
things with their slave masters and overseers. And yeah. It's so massive to me that sometimes it seems overwhelming. And when we talk, you kind of ask me questions that really take me to places that I had in some ways forgotten about or put in my subconscious. I like that time when somebody chose, I mean, and when I,
00:53:07
Speaker
Back then, I didn't even interpret it that way, but as we were talking right now, I did. And that's trying to take somebody's power away from them, you know, of their own choices. Do you think colorism has changed since the time you've been around to now, maybe when you look at
00:53:27
Speaker
their daughters' lives or future kids' generations' lives. Because I've even heard, like in 2050 at least, white people might actually become the new minority. So these perspectives have begun to change, at least with my father when he was pursuing his PhD. He dealt with a lot of races.
00:53:52
Speaker
I mean, I still dealt with a small amount of it, but it wasn't as much to his degree. And I think it had less to do with my appearance because we look the same obviously, but it had more to do with maybe the time and the generations moving forward. It might now, you know, racism might be more of a covert than colonialism might be more covert. Do you think that's also a factor too? That was a bit of a big question. Yes, I think things have changed. I think there's a lot more awareness.
00:54:22
Speaker
about how we've been treated and what we've been taught to believe and think,
Signs of Positive Societal Change
00:54:28
Speaker
I absolutely do. And I'm happy for that. I see, I had this book, and I'm sorry, I can't remember all the names, but it's called The Color of Water. I can't remember the author. But he found out that he was black and he explored that kind of part of his life
00:54:49
Speaker
And it was fascinating. He was an adult, I believe, when he discovered that. But I was thinking, and somebody said to me a long time ago, I wish everybody was your color. If everybody was just kind of in the same hue and color tone and just all people were treated the same. And I don't know that we'll ever get there. I don't know that humanity will ever get there. I'm hoping so.
00:55:20
Speaker
I do see changes in terms of, like I said, the covers of magazines. I see, you know, high fashion models and places of power and people even honoring like through social media, dark-skinned women and dark-skinned men as well. But I think dark-skinned men have a different journey and I honestly can't speak to that directly. But yes, there's change and I hope there is more change. Is it coming fast enough? No.
00:55:50
Speaker
It isn't, but it's coming. But again, it takes like raising people, because it's generations. You see like this generation will say they get the notion, they get the idea that, hey, you know, stuff needs to change. And they actually work at changing things. Then they can raise their children, you know, but there's still the past. There's still people here who obviously want something different. They want, you know, white superiority. And they're fighting hard to keep it that way.
00:56:22
Speaker
unfairly, per usual, through cheating and changing rules after the game starts and all that stuff. But I do see, and I think this is kind of part of my charm, if I have any, that I really am a hopeful person, you know, and I think it took that to do my job, you know, kids failing classes, students failing classes and getting, you know, in trouble in various ways.
00:56:50
Speaker
people giving up on them. And I just, I would not give up on one of my students. And I don't wanna give up on humanity as a whole. I want us to fill our purpose and be great. But we need at least a generation or two to kind of clean out the old, right? And get rid of those old ideas, the residue of inequality. And it's powerful too.
00:57:19
Speaker
Right? It's, you know, it's generational on white folks too. And they might not even know it. I'm not blaming them. Like Booker T. Washington said, he felt bad, kind of. And it wasn't like, oh, I feel bad for them. So bad for them. But he didn't admire white people for having now, because they didn't know how to do anything. They're enslaved people did all their stuff. So after, you know, there was no slavery.
00:57:45
Speaker
He was saying, man, they're not going to do anything for themselves. Sorry in that sense. Not, oh, I feel so sorry for them. Let me go help them. But so there's generations of white racial identity that need to be addressed also. So I think it's going to take a few generations to get to the place where it doesn't matter. But we're not there yet.
00:58:11
Speaker
And you know, you're so right because I want me to be dead honest with you. I was kind of shaking my head a bit when you mentioned, I wish everyone can look like you because I think from a more societal standpoint, you know, that might be true. Like it might be better, but it also exposes a really sad truth that I've seen, you know, among a lot of people in the community and it's called self hatred.
00:58:37
Speaker
And that one really tends to irritate me. Like, I'll be honest with you, there was a certain person, I'm not going to say her name, but I interviewed on this show and she was talking about, she hated how dark her skin was because she thinks the lighting is bad. And is it bright enough? And, you know, it was, it was upsetting because at least from a more
00:59:01
Speaker
social standpoint, from my perspective, I think it's important that we're all proud of who we are as people. Even though oppression and that stuff is a thing, and even though all of this societally is true, personally, we should see ourselves a certain type of way. But how do we get that vision of ourselves if nobody's telling us that? What if our parents are infected by that idea that darker is ugly and, you know,
00:59:29
Speaker
Like they, you know, God, make sure you cover up, you know, so you don't get, you know, sun don't get darker. I know you've heard people say that like, I'm gonna wear hats. So I don't, um, and it's not because of like skin cancer or things like that. It's because this is because they don't want darker skin. I mean, people intentionally married, uh, life skin people, like I'm light skin. I want to marry a light skin person, you know, back in the day because they didn't want their kids to be dark. What type of shit is that? I mean, you know, I mean, it is, it is terrible that we are so,
00:59:58
Speaker
We've been just so hurt. We've been so hurt as a people that that young lady, and there's probably thousands and thousands like her, didn't want to be in her skin. And how does she know how to feel good about herself if no one's ever told her that? If she's grown up being made fun of and talked about, because I've heard people say really horrible jokes about skin and
01:00:25
Speaker
I don't know if you know the you're so black thing, but that was out when I was a kid. And I used to laugh at it and think it was funny. I'm, I don't know, nine, 10 years old or something like that. But it's just sad. And I get what you're saying, Jarens. We all should have that. We should. But maybe she didn't have that love and support and somebody telling her that she was good enough. Maybe she kept hearing she isn't good enough. And that's what she's internalized.
01:00:55
Speaker
You know? Like, I want her to love herself, just like you do. But I think back to the generations, right? And what was told to her mom, and what was told to her mom's mom, and what they put into her process and her spirit, you know? Sometimes, you know, therapy. I have a shirt that says, go to therapy. I think everybody should. Yeah. It's not.
01:01:24
Speaker
I have some weird, weird incidents. It was, I was at the grocery store. I told you this morning and a man came up to me. It was like, like earlier I ran to somebody I knew and he was like, was he a football player? Was he a stealer? I say he used to play football. Yes. And whatever. And he was like, well, what do you do? And so I told him and we talked and I gave him some information. I led him to some websites about mental health and black therapists in the Pittsburgh area and things like that. And he thanked me. Um,
01:01:53
Speaker
But that people just need, right? And they don't even know. And this man was 72 years old. And he said, I think I might need this when we were talking about therapy. I mean, I'll stand there with him for like 10 or 15 minutes talking about stuff. But I'm hopeful. I see things like that. Like, I didn't know that man. I might never see that man again. But he stopped me in the grocery store and was like, you know, having a conversation. And he realized, and I hope he follows through, that he might need therapy at 72.
01:02:23
Speaker
We talk about generational trauma and different things in those moments that we shared together. So, yeah, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. I'm eternally hopeful. I think the reason why, too, is that I've personally, in my years of running this podcast, I've interviewed a lot of therapists.
01:02:46
Speaker
And you sort of have that type of personality that most of the therapists that I've interviewed have. That sense of openness. You could tell me anything. I won't really judge you too much. Let's sit down and let's talk about this.
Therapy for Generational Trauma
01:03:06
Speaker
You tend to have that type of personality. So I'm not shocked, but something that's coming to my mind now is more so
01:03:17
Speaker
Do you think we need therapists now that might specialize in issues regarding generational trauma, race, these types of things? Because I feel like there are certain things, again, you don't get it wrong, but I think there are certain things you can offer to maybe a person of color as a therapist compared to a regular traditional therapist, if you know what I mean.
01:03:43
Speaker
And that was really part of my dissertation. That's part of the, like, we have to do a section of future research possibilities, right? So, and also how is this going to benefit our community? And when I say our community, I mean mental health providers and things like that. So part of my goal was to have generational trauma be explored by potential therapists or aspiring therapists, you know, whether it's social work, psychology, or counseling, or any other thing.
01:04:10
Speaker
We need to understand that when people of color come in, and even, and other people as well, to our space who are seeking help, we need to understand that whatever the presenting issue is, they say, you know, I'm experiencing depression and, you know, we also need to incorporate that generational trauma into our process and our plan for wellness with that client because that's a part of their history and that's a part of their story.
01:04:40
Speaker
So that was part of my goal in my dissertation was to educate mental health providers and help them to understand that this needs to be a part of the plan, even if it's not a presenting issue, even if it's not a secondary issue. It's there. And oftentimes we don't realize it. I mean, if I go to black people walking around the street or grocery store or whatever and be like, you've been traumatized. No, I haven't. I'm fine. So we don't even know. And see, that's the part. We don't even know we've been traumatized.
01:05:08
Speaker
You know, the system wants us to know that. I think they want us to just continue in this trauma, pass in generation to generation, and live like we're not equal to them. You know, or like we have to carry this for the rest of our lives. We can heal, at least to a certain extent. And I know there's a lot of debate about trauma being able to heal trauma. However, you know, hey, we won't try.
01:05:36
Speaker
I don't think we can ever get rid of it, right? And I don't know that I necessarily want to. I want to remember and understand what I've overcome and what my people have overcome. But I also want us to overcome it. I don't want us to live in a space of perpetual passing on of these internalized negative things. Did I answer you?
01:06:04
Speaker
We answered it perfectly. And as we kind of move towards the end of this interview, how would you sort of conclude this idea of colorism to the audience
Conclusion: Addressing Colorism and Representation
01:06:18
Speaker
here? What do you think is kind of the main takeaway that we as a community or everyone as a whole should take about colorism and how could we maybe
01:06:30
Speaker
improve that minority voice so people can all begin to talk about it, maybe deal with the issue in a better way. I think remember I said words and language are really important. I think we need to discuss those things. I think that we need to. And I think we are let our children know I've seen little girls walking around with afros like just not even picked out, not, you know, just wow, like my hair.
01:06:59
Speaker
And I've seen young men, too. So I think embracing our natural beauty and our natural assets is something that's important, regardless of what our skin tone is. But I also think that, and that's part of it, right? Because skin tone is kind of related to hair. And that's why I keep bringing it up, because
01:07:23
Speaker
I'm sure I'm projecting some too, because I told you also about the young man who, when I changed schools, you know, we were talking and he was like, how do you, I said, how'd you know I was black? And he said, your hair. So hair is big for women and it's big, big for black women. So I've seen young ladies with their, you know, hair out, their natural hair. And I think that's becoming more acceptable and becoming more even desirable in our society. So that's a plus. I think we need to discuss colorism. I think we need to have conversations about it.
01:07:52
Speaker
I think the images that we see, like, you know, TV shows, even people on cards on the front of magazines or in magazines, although I don't know the young people necessarily read actual magazines or, you know, more online, but the images that we show them and the things that we say are really important because kids pick up on stuff that we don't realize that they hear that we say, whether it's our own kids or
01:08:20
Speaker
somebody else's, you know, like I've been in the school system, which I worked, the language is important. The images are important. And changing our mind is important. Changing our mind. When I say to people, you know, that's really like from the slave, slave era, when they're saying something about skin tone, some of them look at me and like, get out of here, you know, and other people want to have a conversation about that. And so that's, that's how I think also we,
01:08:48
Speaker
we address when somebody else around us is saying things that perpetuate those ways of existing and ways of thinking, I think we speak up. I think we express respectfully, right? That, you know, what do you think about that when you say that? And that's the therapist in me, right? I'm going to toss the ball back to
01:09:15
Speaker
you know, my client and make them go through the process of thinking through things because I don't need to do that. You know, this is your time, your session. But even in just kind of casual conversations,
01:09:29
Speaker
bringing those things up, I think it helps people think and addressing stuff when people say it, you know. All right. Excellent. Well, this was a great discussion, Dr. I really loved it. And I think the audience will like it too. This was very informative on colorism as well as maybe some deeper aspects. And I think I learned a lot and I think everyone else will too. Thank you. Thank you again for being on the show.
01:09:57
Speaker
And yeah, this is James Paris edition. I will see you all next time.