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The Health Episode // Sensitivity As Resilience with Anthia Koullouros
422 Plays2 days ago
A story about a free bottle of French perfume and whether sensitivity makes us more or less resilient. With esteemed and ever-so-lucid naturopath, herbalist & author Anthia Koullouros of Apothēca Organic Teas & Apothecary.
* What’s making us all so sick?
* How to untangle complex & confounding health crises
* Polyvagal theory & nervous system truths
* Practitioner perspectives: holding space for uncertainty
* What a regulated nervous system isn’t
* Resisting business growth & hustle culture
LINKY POOS 🧙♀️
Anthia’s Autumn reset [Starts March 17!]
🧡🧡🧡 Support Reskillience on Patreon 🧡🧡🧡
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Transcript
Introduction to Riskillians and Local Connection
00:00:06
Speaker
Hey, this is Katie and you're tuned into Riskillians, where we're hanging on to real skills and good sense, even as the world loses the plot.
00:00:17
Speaker
This podcast is produced by Jara Country, central Victoria, whose sun and rivers and people and critters are the soil from which every Riskillian syllable springs.
Katie's Perfume Story and Sensitivity Reflection
00:00:28
Speaker
Something sweet and stinky happened to me the other day I was in bougie shop in town where I very occasionally venture, creeping through the doors in my crusty old work boots and third hand shorts, trying to act natural around impeccably dressed mannequins whose cardigans are worth more than my entire wardrobe.
00:00:48
Speaker
But anyway, I was there to buy socks because this shop stocks the best socks, lovely merino ones that cost 50 bucks a pop, but last half a century. They are my favourite gifts right now.
00:01:00
Speaker
And on this day, i was deliberating over which pair to choose for a mate's birthday. And as I did, I got chatting with the fancy shop assistant. We shared some friendly banter before she asked quite randomly, did I wear perfume?
00:01:14
Speaker
Ha, She obviously missed the word permaculture smeared across my forehead in compost. Nevertheless, she walked towards me wielding a bottle of French perfume, telling me about the bright and spicy facets and saffron highlights and flourish of rose on the nose.
00:01:30
Speaker
After she spritzed my wrists, she was like, do you want this? Referring to the half full bottle of perfume in her hand, which she told me was worth 400 bucks.
00:01:40
Speaker
Apparently she was refreshing her testers and wanted to give it away. So I walked out of there feeling kinda rosy because unexpected gifts always give you a little hit of oxytocin.
00:01:52
Speaker
Like nice things do happen and there are kind people in the world. even if they want me to smell like a candle. And that was Jord's first comment as I walked through the doors at home. You smell like a candle.
00:02:04
Speaker
And by that time, the sickly sweet scent of rose was giving me a headache and making my stomach turn. And even after a shower, it was still there. I'm really sensitive to strong smells these days, even if they're natural, like essential oils or this perfume which claimed to be delicate and demure.
00:02:24
Speaker
It was just so overpowering compared to the loamy aromas of a down-to-earth life, with all its tangy ferments, ripe cheeses, fresh mints and the comforting musk of a goat in the milking stall.
00:02:38
Speaker
I really don't mind these sweaty, grotty, funky, oniony whatts that are homesteader's pheromones. But this $400 bottle of French perfume, it was an affront, much like walking down the laundry aisle in a supermarket or into the $2 shop.
00:02:55
Speaker
or past a bushwalker who went a little bit too hard on the aftershave.
Conversation with Anthea Kulouros on Health and Sensitivity
00:02:59
Speaker
Many people say they become extra sensitive after adopting a chemical-free life or even removing certain foods from their diet.
00:03:08
Speaker
A common refrain is, i just can't tolerate this or that thing like I used to. And one of the questions we're asking today in this beautiful conversation with a very dear friend of mine, acclaimed naturopath Anthea Kulouros is...
00:03:23
Speaker
Is sensitivity such a bad thing? Does it mean we're weaker and less resilient? Or does it mean we're more attuned and therefore more resilient? Is health about reaching a point of stainless steel perfection where you're completely unassailable?
00:03:38
Speaker
Or is it about being with the messy and tender unfolding that at times can break your heart? What is eroding our collective wellbeing? How do we sit in uncertainty?
00:03:49
Speaker
And what might we discover if instead of shutting down our symptoms, We welcomed them in like old pals and poured them a cup of tea. You might already know Anthea's work.
00:04:00
Speaker
She's one of Sydney's OG whole food naturopaths, teasmiths and traditional herbalists who's been helping people join the dots between soil and season and culture and health for over 30 years.
00:04:11
Speaker
Anthea is my go-to source of no-bullshit wisdom about pretty much everything, because as you'll see in this conversation, it is all connected, which is why we spend time discussing business and society and upbringing, as well as holistic takes on symptoms, disease, stress,
00:04:29
Speaker
first aid, root causes, parts work and the nervous system. It is everything the bottle of French perfume wishes it could be. Sweet, subtle and uplifting.
00:04:40
Speaker
And Anthea's emergent thoughts on health resilience towards the end of the conversation are really worth sticking around for. In other news, I had the joy of meeting actual listeners in actual real life last week on a permaculture design certificate because podcasting gets real lonely, but seeing the smiling faces of people who are really engaged with these themes and even those who actually support the show as patrons, shout out to Isis and Luca, was a peak life experience.
00:05:08
Speaker
If you're looking for ways to support the show, which is entirely independent and run on sheer passion, you can pledge a donation at patreon.com forward slash riskilliance or leave the podcast a review on iTunes, which makes such a massive difference, or tap the stars on Spotify.
00:05:26
Speaker
I absolutely adore this podcast and feel immensely, immensely grateful to everyone who listens. That's you. So much love. And here's the legendary Anthea Kuluras.
00:05:39
Speaker
I'm trying to count back the years in my head to pinpoint when it was that I first heard that celestial name on the breeze, like Anthea Kalouros, you honestly were, because I was studying naturopathy in Sydney and you were like the representative for natural health, um not going to go down these kind of convoluted pharmaceutical supplementarian routes, someone who connected people with the source of their food, you were joining these dots well ahead of your time. Like organic was still a really fringy thing. And we all, all of us green witches and wizards in our college were just, we so aspired to that kind of care that you were offering people. And lo and behold,
00:06:23
Speaker
I ended up having the pleasure of working with you, which was just like a dream come true. But yeah, I'm just thinking back to that time and kind of reminding myself and reminding people listening that this was actually quite alternative. You know, you were doing alternative medicine and then it was an alternative to the alternative at the time.
00:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, it was. and And, you know, in my year, i think 100 people applied to study naturopathic. 14, graduated, and then I think I was the only one that was consulting of that 14.
00:06:54
Speaker
And i I mean, I had a mentor. As I was studying, I had a mentor who had a tea company and her own version of an apothecary. That's how I knew to do that.
00:07:07
Speaker
But I also had this thing within me that I had my own visions and ideas of what I would like to be and how to present in the world. And you know, while I've spoken to you about this, I grew up watching Bewitched.
00:07:22
Speaker
I grew up with that apothecary in the sky when Samantha would go and visit the apothecary's person who dispensed medicines to all those witchly diseases and symptoms.
00:07:35
Speaker
And I watched Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. So all of those kind of old world stores where someone would go in and get a bit of this and a bit of that and a gram of this or a pound of that.
00:07:47
Speaker
That's what I just loved so much, to be able to step into this old world where someone knew you, knew you as the neighbour of friends who'd come from down the street and had something that they needed or an ailment that they needed remedied.
00:08:04
Speaker
I didn't even think of myself as a healer. and just, I don't know what I was thinking to be honest. I just loved remedies and herbs and helping people. And it was just so inside of me. It is so hard to express and explain.
00:08:21
Speaker
It's as if that's what I've done for eons. And that
Anthea's Business Challenges and Holistic Philosophy
00:08:24
Speaker
is all I know. Thank you so much for saying those things. I never knew how how people perceived me. i just kind of put my head down. Yeah, you were like the the pinnacle and I hesitate to put you on that pedestal because you're so grounded. But yeah, you were like our beacon and especially those of us who were very much into whole foods. And I feel like this word whole and holism and holistic is something so strong in your philosophy and offering. And maybe that, as you say, was kind of an intuitive thing, but you must have inside like that kind of that critical eye for what isn't
00:09:00
Speaker
What doesn't make sense for human health and what is a bit broken in the system? And yeah, I wonder if you can, if we can kind of dig into this concept of wholeness, because you've been on a huge journey with that word.
00:09:12
Speaker
And from those origin days of simply offering whole herbs and spices as medicine, as opposed to like a distilled synthetic thing and an emphasis on whole foods, like if you could help us reclaim that word, because I feel almost at this point, it's been a bit de-yoked as one of my mentors likes to say, you know, like all the nutrients have been sucked out of that word. But yeah, what does it mean to you now? Whole for me means...
00:09:38
Speaker
the inner realms, the outer realms, and the realms that we don't know about as yet, what we call the invisible realms, the parts of ourselves that we haven't met as yet. They could be the underlying causes, contributing factors.
00:09:52
Speaker
So inner realms for me is everything mental and emotional. So this is where I think it's very holistic in this interdependent and interconnected world that is this human body but also how it connects to this outer realm, which is our environment, our community, nature, seasons, flora, fauna, locality, indigenous, native land, the whole kit and caboodle.
00:10:18
Speaker
So I think I just never saw myself separated from that. And and i sometimes I also wonder what is it that made me so understand that so clearly?
00:10:30
Speaker
Was it because I was gardening in soil, collecting worms? Was it because we had an apple tree? i don't know. what what was it? We had everything made available inside and outside. I knew about fermentation because that's what people, old people did. It's like, that's what your grandparents do.
00:10:48
Speaker
So when it comes to whole, had this big thread in me about injustice and inequality. And I think perhaps that also came about because I was first born in Australian mum and dad were migrants.
00:11:02
Speaker
So I was very conscious of I went to school, a very multicultural school, very, of all different colours of children. And then i went, we moved Cronulla, which was, I was the only brown girl, essentially, in Cronulla. So that's when I realised, oh, that is so very different.
00:11:23
Speaker
I don't know if I then saw this contrast that was happening. i wasn't aware of it until that contrast. and then you grow up in this world that starts dividing pieces apart and this is this and that is that.
00:11:39
Speaker
And then I started to understand science, so which, you know, fragments everything. So you can do a deeper dive and research, but never then puts everything back together again.
00:11:50
Speaker
I feel like there's so many different things that contributed to my understanding of whole or holism. And then grew up with a father who was an electrical engineer who could pull a apart a TV and put it back together again, who told us never to use microwaves, who we weren't allowed to have takeout food or processed food. He would eat, dad cooked, dad would do everything. It's so strange because I think, gosh, I'm just like a makeup of all these different things that just got threaded together.
00:12:21
Speaker
And then this realization, and then I find a career that fulfills all those desires to express in this world. But it is tricky because I sit in this space of alternate still, and some people want to call it complimentary, but you're still an outsider on the inside, if that makes sense. I'm in the realm of naturopathy in those days. No one knew what a naturopath was.
00:12:46
Speaker
That was bold enough, let alone be bold enough to be a whole food or holistic practitioner that considered the soul and spirit, let alone the physical and environment.
00:13:01
Speaker
i Look, I find the whole thing really interesting as well. I feel like it's like this big tangled ball that sometimes I unthread to kind of understand myself and how this came about and why other people can't see it that way and I'm curious how then i can um pull those threads within them.
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah well yeah speaking about your own journey it seems like there is this innate or role modeled or inculcated sense that you have from your family and the simple reality and the healthful reality that you were steeped in as a young person. But then I know there was a major event in your professional life and personal life later on, like quite recently, that I understand like gave you an even deeper and broader and more crystalline kind of understanding of what this healing thing is all about do you want to share a little bit of of that story yeah yeah so I think you know as a practitioner you apply and all the things to yourself and you're in this your own healing journey as you discover more and more and so I would
00:14:12
Speaker
definitely dive into seeing a therapist or whoever it was that would help me unfold naturally so I can be the most aligned and most present for my patients. And the the best that I could be to access information as well and information, you know, learnings, but also innate intuition.
00:14:32
Speaker
So I was already on that journey, but I did find myself in this terrible quandary as my business grew and meaning the tea company, but also the clinic. I found myself in this very overwhelming state of constantly delivering and providing service and it became the most stressful experience.
00:14:54
Speaker
So here running the thing that I loved so much and was helping so many people and I was creating something where I would not cut any corners, it came to this realization that I needed support and I needed money to grow.
00:15:10
Speaker
Why did I not think at the time though, do you need to grow? And I just, I never was asked that question and that question never popped up with inside of me. I wish I had that question pop up.
00:15:23
Speaker
However, you end up where you end up. And I'm glad I did in many ways because I can ask that question now. asked that question of many and what does it mean to grow? So I brought on two different investors.
00:15:36
Speaker
So I went through this twice, this process. I made a mistake. twice and the second time it actually cost me the entire business and I lost it to a new investor within months and I had all the red flags every time I knew I was having any business meeting I knew it wasn't right but I thought that was the only way to proceed forward so it became even more stressful
00:16:07
Speaker
because giving away even a part of the baby, which my business was very personal to me, even though people are saying you shouldn't business shouldn't be personal, and it's like to this date, I don't agree with that. It is very personal to me. Then you're watching something being dissected and carved out and finessed in a way that isn't holistic anymore in order to make money and be successful.
00:16:33
Speaker
So when I lost it and it was amazing, I lost something that was my identity. So I can see the point where people say it shouldn't be so personal. But what it did become was my identity. That's all I knew and it's all I wanted to be.
00:16:48
Speaker
And so to lose that, it was like having kind of this breakdown, cathartic experience where how did I end up here? What does it mean for me as a practitioner and the products that I'm creating and where do I fit in this world?
00:17:03
Speaker
If it's so easy for someone just to take it, away from me. Like, is that it for me? And this realization that no one can actually steal that light within you, that creative force, that very particular soul journey that I had, that just knew.
00:17:22
Speaker
And so I was able to to start again and start again with the knowings and learnings and realizing in that moment, twice that it happened,
00:17:35
Speaker
There were aspects or parts of myself that I hadn't met that needed healing, that needed tending to, parts and aspects of myself that doubted a lot of what I thought and knew because you're in this realm which is constantly saying that's the wrong way of doing things, that's the wrong way of doing things.
00:17:53
Speaker
So doubt creeps in from that kind of naive, I suppose, green witch which is like, I know, i just knew to know you don't know. And that's not how you be in the world and that's not how you play in the world and that's not what success is.
00:18:07
Speaker
So I doubted myself to the point of nothingness to almost being so emptied where you do something that is so not right for you and you lose it all and then you start again and realising actually you hadn't lost it all because they can't take that part of you. No one can.
00:18:29
Speaker
And so it wasn't all lost. But what it did make me realize is the impact of the stress on my mind and body and everything. And that's when I got interested in the nervous system.
00:18:42
Speaker
And I so started seeing life through that lens and choices that I was making through that lens. And I thought, wow, to position people into health and healing, where is the state of their nervous system? What is the state of their nervous system? Where are they at?
00:18:58
Speaker
Because you can't make clear decisions when you're in a state of anxiety and fear or in a freeze-fallen state. When you're telling that story, Anthea, what was really highlighted for me in your telling of that just now was like, oh, all of like the earth wisdom that is is in you and also we we can allow into our businesses if we if we dare to Like that wisdom is do you really need to be bigger or do your roots need to be deeper? There's like a thread of kind of denying your your feminine intuition. There's the the machine that wants to take you apart and kind of co-opt your creativity.
00:19:37
Speaker
and I'm just like hearing all of these these things that make me realize that business is, you know, a mirror for the personal and the social and like, you know, it's emblematic of all of these things. And so I just wonder kind of where you're at in a business sense now, having all of those lessons kind of coalesced and what is your feeling around like biggering and bettering at this point?
00:19:59
Speaker
It's such a good question. i feel much more calmer and more at ease. I feel like I found that, that little Anthea again, that started all of this and I'm back in my skin and comfortable and I'm very self-assured.
00:20:14
Speaker
And what you said, is it bigger or more deeply rooted? It is more deeply rooted. That's where I needed to go. I didn't need to go bigger. I needed to just keep growing my roots and just to almost block out, really separate myself from those particular voices that weren't aligned with my beliefs and philosophies.
00:20:35
Speaker
And so now I feel like I'm deeply rooted and I'm growing those roots and I constantly make sure I do come from this space because I also know how there is no perfection. Life stuff will just swoop you up and almost try and force you out of that alignment. So I make sure I work work on that and remember who I am and also remember And I love this quote, and I'm sure you've heard of this quote by a man called Thomas Hubel, who wrote Attuned.
00:21:11
Speaker
Every human being is composed of a vast living library filled with all possible information. Nothing is left out. The ancestral wisdom of our most primordial ancestors resides in our DNA and in every cell of our bodies, brains, and nervous systems.
00:21:27
Speaker
And when I realized that, I then could trust that and I trust myself. And so I've been able to exercise that. So what does business look like every day based on that? Is that i follow threats when I'm very still and present, things will rise and I follow those deep threads that just know, because I know they're deeply rooted I know they're a part of me, they're a part of my ancestors, I know they're a part of my regulated nervous system. For me it looks like what I have now a clinic, an apothecary, it's so downsized. I had 18 people working for me. I now have one and a half assistants and it is easier so much
00:22:14
Speaker
And sure, I say no a lot and sometimes I wonder in those moments, should I say no? Because more because you you're there, you're creating beautiful teas and everyone wants them again.
00:22:26
Speaker
But I know what that means and I would lose myself and I would have to compromise too much of myself. So I know my edges, i know my boundaries. I'd rather go deeper and speak to a Seth Godin says,
00:22:41
Speaker
the smallest viable audience and then allow everyone else to sneeze that beautiful virus out and about. Because I can't get to everyone. There are aspects I don't enjoy because I'm part of this realm of how do i keep myself visible?
00:22:59
Speaker
All my patients are by referral, but you still need to be present in the outside world. And where is the outside world? In social media. Social media is a beast that scares me. It's overwhelms me.
00:23:13
Speaker
I'd rather be behind closed doors. I want to though when I say that I love visitors and I love everyone visiting our store and our apothecary and I love one-on-one, I love speaking, I love interviews, but to constantly show up in that space, this really densely concentrated space of everything and anything, that is probably the piece that I'm still trying to befriend.
00:23:40
Speaker
But all other aspects of how I've created this business, time to write, time to see clients, time to prepare for clients, time to make teas, time to, you know, blend things in the apothecary.
00:23:53
Speaker
it's It's a beautiful space for now and I know will evolve again. Yes, I think this last piece, which I know not the only one, is befriending the social media marketing beast.
00:24:05
Speaker
I would love to see your field notes from that particular piece tussle because it is quite the beast the book that you're working on has ah couple of working titles and i know one of them is this is how we heal and i love that so much for its mystique too and its obvious leading question of well um why don't we heal and how aren't we healing as well which I can appreciate so many of us to varying degrees ask every single day, why do I feel this way?
00:24:39
Speaker
Why is this pain still present?
Modern Health Challenges and Naturopathic Approach
00:24:42
Speaker
I'm doing everything right. But so maybe in this second half of the conversation, Anthea, we can really get into your perspective as a naturopath of many decades.
00:24:53
Speaker
So having a huge library, not only ah back through deep time, but your own presence as a clinician over like nearly, what, 30 years? Is it more than 30 years now? Just over.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah. so calling in the book and those themes, we could kind of start with, do you see any broad, like overarching or underlying reasons why so many of us are so unwell?
00:25:16
Speaker
Yes. Broad overarching is that we have forgotten who we are and what we are in the scheme of life And that's why I hope the book is that. That's why i also love these words. And I think these are words that you helped me come to. May I remind you of what you already know.
00:25:37
Speaker
So that a misalignment within ourselves, our outer realms, inner realms, in invisible realms, out our lack of connection to nature and what that means for us, stress.
00:25:52
Speaker
So they're kind of like big things. And then within those, as we know, it's the, if we're looking at the inner realms, we're looking at poor nutrition, nutritional deficiencies, lack of exercise, poor hydration, those kind of things that we now take for granted that we all think we're doing so well.
00:26:13
Speaker
But we do them in these silos and we don't we do them in these fragmented ways. We forget, but where does nutrition come from? It comes from a garden. It comes from a plant. It comes from an animal, which comes from soil, which is influenced by location and seasons and weather patterns and so on, and who tends to them and so on and so on. It's kind of this inside-outside, constantly flowing in and out,
00:26:43
Speaker
It's not so mysterious why we get sick. I think there is a big mystery box and in that mystery box are the parts of ourselves that we haven't met yet, whether it's ancestral information, genetics, the parts of ourselves that we're so scared to look at.
00:27:01
Speaker
So there are unmet parts. I think they can sit in that mystery box. And I think that work is super important. And yet still, I think there's also this big mystery that we may not know straight away. We may know in a few years or a decade or something.
00:27:17
Speaker
I'm not saying I know this these are the only reasons. I'm sure there are so many, but I think if I think of them in the inner realms, the outer realms and the invisible realms, that helps me find a lot of those contributing factors for a patient that sits opposite me.
00:27:36
Speaker
and he's seeking something, some relief, some ideas, some reason. And at the same time, Katie, helping patients sit in uncertainty, always the hardest thing.
00:27:50
Speaker
We don't accept uncertainty. We want certainty of everything. We want to control everything. So how can I help a patient as they're going through this journey of discovery, unfolding, meeting,
00:28:06
Speaker
considering looking at all these other aspects that will be influencing how they live, the choices they make, how they feel, to sit in that journey with some kindness and compassion but sit in uncertainty that we cannot control, we don't know what we don't know, that's really hard.
00:28:25
Speaker
That's the art of being the practitioner, somehow planting seeds, somehow. And why is it so hard? Because it is The opposite of everything that is out there when it comes to medicine. You have this, take this.
00:28:39
Speaker
We're constantly seeking the quick fix, the absolute, so we can control. So then with four, we can do A, B, C. My... Mine can go in a couple of different directions when I'm receiving this philosophical information. It's like as a as a body, there are so many places where I could spring a leak, but then there's this other perspective or this other lens of like, look at the opportunities and how many opportunities there are to do some small thing which might help us feel better. So I wonder like where you start with people when they're coming to you with this
00:29:18
Speaker
kind of a confusion of symptoms and um diagnoses and and drugs. What are some kind of simple inroads to that tangle? Well, you know, you meet patients where they're at. I had a patient, she just said, just tell me what to do.
00:29:33
Speaker
And I said, yeah, it sounds like you don't have any capacity. She goes, I just, I want to do a cleanse for three days. I just want to reset. I need to lose some weight. And I said, in those three days, what is it, what what are you seeking? She said, it just put me on a fast or something. i just need to lose some weight. And she obviously, i was able to dive in a little bit more, not go too far from what she needed in that moment.
00:29:56
Speaker
There was a lot of stress in her world. And for her to come in that state and and place, I thought, okay, for the next three days. So it's almost like you meet patients where they're at, help them feel that little bit better, create some capacity, meet something,
00:30:13
Speaker
that they're needing to be met. But plant enough seeds, because I do use the word and a lot to be all inclusive and perhaps address how we got here, which is not just that you're intermittent fasting deficient or that you are diet deficient and that's how we got here.
00:30:37
Speaker
and And so sometimes for some patients, they're exhausted. They have no cognitive function. They have no energy. So who am I to then send them on this journey? We've got to address the underlying reasons of why you're like this.
00:30:51
Speaker
We've got to look at your diet and we've got to look at how you self-care and lifestyle. That person just needs a quick fix in that moment. And yes, fantastic. Herbal medicines can do that. Homeopathy can do that.
00:31:02
Speaker
They're already doing that with their panadols and neurofans. They're already doing that, but they're kind of seeking something a little bit more. That's why they end up at the naturopath. So they know that is that quick fix?
00:31:14
Speaker
What else do you have a quick for a quick fix? And perhaps while I'm here, maybe we do need to address this long term. So yes, you don't let someone bleed if they're bleeding.
00:31:24
Speaker
You stop the bleed, but then you think, hey well how did we get here? And do you want to address that? And that's and that's always the invitation. Other people come with chronic persistent symptoms. They're over it. They live with it every day and they're done.
00:31:37
Speaker
They don't need any more first aid. They want to get to the roots of things. And so I find whatever doorway I can find. either find the a point of entry. I don't know. right It's a very, it's something that you come up with a patient a lot.
00:31:53
Speaker
It might mean a test that gives them some hope because it's like, oh we might discover some things. And it's like, yeah, we might not discover the reason, but we'll understand the lay of the land of how things are kind of working that could take you to addressing.
00:32:11
Speaker
We're just kind of meeting those parts that may need attention that we don't know about. And then somehow, call it magic, it doesn't matter. I think it's just positioning one's health in ah in a place that they can draw on, more reserve, whatever it might be to just set them on that path that is less inflammation, less pain.
00:32:32
Speaker
And that does gather momentum. And you only know what you know when you know. and you kind of can't unknow when you learn something. i mean, some people will turn a blind eye and go back to old ways, sure. Sure.
00:32:43
Speaker
And it's because we haven't met the stresses that sit behind there or get the nervous system's reactions to two certain things. In terms of meeting the nervous system, if you were to meet ah personified
Impact of Stress on Health and Nervous System
00:32:55
Speaker
nervous system, like who are they and what do they do?
00:33:00
Speaker
So there are people that will come in that will be in a real fight. They'll be fight fighty and feisty with me. They'll be angry and and express anger towards others and and doctors. And you see this person in this very state of fight.
00:33:16
Speaker
You then see people in this flight response where they just don't want to deal. They've been sent by their partner. They've been sent by their child, their grown-up child, and it's like, I don't really want to be here. don't really want to know this.
00:33:29
Speaker
they sit in that realm of anxiety and worry. They might turn up with anxiety worry and anxiety and worry might be the thing that can you help me with that. So it's that fight-flight response of that, which is the ah stress response. It's sure it's an evolutionary response to stress and fear and danger.
00:33:51
Speaker
However, when it becomes chronic, it does, as we say, makes a home in the body and it keeps expressing itself in that way. And then sometimes we have people that come in they want to be there, but they almost can't deal with the conversation they're actually not there because they're so vacant in the ultimate protection, what we call the freeze response. They just can't really go there because it's too painful to go there.
00:34:20
Speaker
They're not there. Like I'm having a conversation and I know they're not going to remember everything. So I always say I take detailed notes so you've got something to reference when you go home. And there are other people who, and we see this and we call it this the fawn state, which is they will people please me. oh Anything you say, Anthea, I will do it all. And it's like it's it's not about you heal me, like they will fawn me. And it's like it is a collaboration. And what I'm collaborating with is people the parts of you that need lots of special care and attention. And it's not about me healing you, it's about me helping you find your own ability to heal.
00:35:02
Speaker
And it's about positioning yourself in a way, whether you need more energy, whatever it might be that you need so you can heal yourself. So that's what they look like in an animated way. And there are many more different types of personalities that come along.
00:35:18
Speaker
And how do how do we get into those deranged or dysregulated states? I think everything, whether it be pain itself, fear of something, overworked, overwhelmed, financial troubles, insecurities, no matter what the cause is, but also patterns that we adopt and replay, patterns that we've grown up with that we've seen our parents play out.
00:35:45
Speaker
So some parents will fight parents, kids that grew up with parents who fought, either they themselves react in the same way, or they do the complete opposite because i don't want to like mum and dad.
00:35:56
Speaker
And is it like an oversimplification to talk about the nervous system in terms of you know, sympathetic and parasympathetic. And, you know, one is activated when we are triggered or we're just kind of consistently worried or anxious, whatever. And then the other one is like, that's our optimum rest and digest, calm, Zen state. Like, is that, I feel like maybe that that's where I'm at in understanding the nervous system. And a lot of people out there, we have that kind of dualistic view of what's going on and like one's good and one's bad, and we've got to get to the good one.
00:36:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think it is to befriend it all that fight, fight is a really important reaction to stress and danger and that we want to experience that. It's when it becomes chronic.
00:36:40
Speaker
And the same with freeze, the ultimate protective mechanism. So I see them as really important systems and mechanisms within our bodies. It's just that when we're constantly going there,
00:36:53
Speaker
And when we talk about the regulated state of our nervous system, the counterbalance, which is called rest and digest, mind you, a lot of people think when they're in a freeze response, they're in a regulated state because it's anything other than fight or flight.
00:37:06
Speaker
They're just non-feeling. So I'm in a calm state. And I think, no, they're in fight, fight with a big cold, wet blanket on top of them. That's just dampened everything down, but the stress is still present in a more regulated state.
00:37:22
Speaker
It feels very different because it feels much more expansive and seabra flow. And I don't think that is either the ultimate place to be all the time because i don't think we can be because sometimes we need to put our foot on the pedal and be in a fight-flight response or ultimate freeze response.
00:37:42
Speaker
So I think it's this somewhere in between. it's ah It's just the extremes and the frequency the severity the chronicity of those states yeah so when i think of rest and digest i don't think of that as the better state because i used to always think of this because i used to run when i had a business and to be in the world of business i thought you had to be in a fight flight response you had to have adrenaline and be like this
00:38:14
Speaker
Because that was the model when I started growing my business. They were the models I had it around me. And particularly it was male-dominated models of running a business.
00:38:26
Speaker
Don't cry. Shut down. Do your work. Nothing is personal here. Imagine that, like my being in that realm. Sure, my fight, flight and freeze response were activated all the time.
00:38:41
Speaker
Nothing felt right. I was doing this beautiful thing, the thing I love so much. And at the same time, I was suffering. Couldn't understand it until it all broke down and then I could see it.
00:38:52
Speaker
So I don't think one is better than the other. I think in many ways, I was able to survive that for a long time. You know what it is when you befriend it so much and you know it so much for yourself, those different parts of how you express stress.
00:39:08
Speaker
You can also regulate yourself. You can also bring yourself back into regulation or be a mindful that you're in that. Imagine being able to have its like of this superpower. you're You're observing yourself in that and it's like how interesting.
00:39:23
Speaker
I'm in this space. ah Look at me there wanting to just shut down and not feel and numb out. What is that and following that thread. Yeah. So yeah, I get what you're saying. It isn't one or the other and one's bad and one's good.
00:39:39
Speaker
But this is a real focal point for you at this time. in your book and really kind of clarifying that connection that you see between our our nervous system and these expressions um of the states that we can inhabit through our nervous system.
00:39:56
Speaker
What does that mean to you and like how is it applying to people who might be coming in with a whole bunch of different presentations but what you're seeing is maybe a chronic activation of the fight or flight response?
00:40:08
Speaker
sometimes if I just show them the polyvagal diagram of fight, flight, freeze, something is mirrored back to them. It's like, yes, that's me. I take blood pressure medication.
00:40:20
Speaker
i take antidepressants. I take drugs that in a sense are helping me manage my fight, flight, freeze, foreign response. It's almost like people need to um have it mirrored back to them. This is what's happening.
00:40:35
Speaker
And this is poll could be the reasons why. And ultimately, one of the big reasons is they're so swamped in the muck of stuff. They're saturated in content and stuff and things that aren't aligned with them. And so they're so far removed from their true essence that when you realize that, and sometimes you can ask them at particular points, like, what is it that you really want to be doing? And it's that. Sometimes you just can ask a particular question or,
00:41:07
Speaker
make them aware that through their senses it is this gateway that their vision, taste, smell, hearing, touch. This gateway of sensing whether something feels safe or comfortable.
00:41:21
Speaker
Like what makes you comfortable? What scares you? And as you know and I know, our senses are so mucked up. No one senses in the supermarket. They walk through laundry aisles and they don't shudder like we you and I would shudder at the the scent of disharmony or the shutter at the center that's not right our nervous system will go into uh-uh that ain't right move move move keep walking walk through quickly everything kind of feels blanketed and dull and and and dark and and confusing and overwhelming and I think
00:42:00
Speaker
when you sometimes bring up a few of those words, then people then start, they get on that roll and they start expressing and start untangling a few things and that realisation. But it's a lot in an hour consults as well, do
Maintaining Holistic Practice in a Fragmented Industry
00:42:13
Speaker
you know? So I'm always very mindful of how much to share, how much do you go there?
00:42:20
Speaker
I feel myself still weighting things, that are more literal or physical, say like a nutrient deficiency or yeah, some kind of toxin in my environment, weighting them more heavily than, o do I have something unexpressed in my creative life or is there a misalignment happening here between me and,
00:42:41
Speaker
me and someone who's very present in my world or, you know, these, the invisibilia of our, of our world, like still trying to grapple with those things, having just as profound an impact on my, my health and disease as, you know, like ingesting a poison.
00:42:58
Speaker
So do you find that you're still laboring to make, to help people make that connection? oh my whole career is kind of undermining my wellbeing at this point. You know what the trickiest thing is being a a practitioner is letting go that you're only on a journey for a blip.
00:43:13
Speaker
And sometimes they'll come back a year later, I wish I had done more of this work with you. But again, you're only ready when you're ready. It would be so dandy how nice it would be to be on a complete journey with a patient. Sometimes you get to be because sometimes I have patients I might see once a year or once every six months. And so you've known them for decades and you watch that.
00:43:35
Speaker
unfold because I think healing is is a long journey I'm not talking about cure or resolving I just think the journey of unfolding is the healing journey the journey of getting to know is there a rush in that sure if something is acute and it's obvious you give someone iron you tell them to eat iron rich foods all of a sudden their hair stops falling out okay within six to eight weeks their hair stops falling out they feel stronger and they They're not panting. They've got, you know, they can do their exercise. They can think clearly.
00:44:12
Speaker
That's one part. That's one part. And maybe that's it. Maybe that's all. And that's the only thing. And then that's okay. But I always think, you know, you plant enough seeds because if you think see some other things that are happening in that individual that they made down the track, you know, experience something else, they know they can come back to you for that.
00:44:34
Speaker
And if they keep experiencing the same thing over and over again, then you think, okay, what else can we be doing here for this individual? And you mentioned resolving as opposed to an unfolding healing process. And um sometimes I have these very basic questions sitting just below the surface that it almost feels a bit uncouth to ask someone. And we have spoken privately about this before, but in any conversation about health and wellness, it's almost like um there's an assumption, an implicit assumption that we're talking about how how we get better, how we become perfect, how we don't feel any pain forever and ever. Amen. And that's the goal.
00:45:15
Speaker
But actually, you know we've spoken about, well, what what is the goal? What is health? What is being well? Is there a resolution or is it the process. So I wonder if you can speak to that, Anthea. And I mean, it it can feel quite a confronting topic for someone experiencing suffering, but it's also, you know, my, my perpetual curiosity.
Welcoming Symptoms and Redefining Resilience
00:45:38
Speaker
It's like, what are what are we aiming for here?
00:45:42
Speaker
And is it what we think? For some people, you know, they're suffering day to day, in and out. There's no break in the suffering. So, of course, it makes sense.
00:45:52
Speaker
They take a painkiller. They take anti-inflammatories and give them a break in that suffering because it it is you how do you live like that? You can't do anything. You can't exist in any particular way. How do you connect even with nature? You can't do anything in that suffering and pain.
00:46:11
Speaker
And you hope when they're not in that suffering and pain, what can we do in that in those moments so that there is either less suffering and pain or greater gaps in that suffering and pain.
00:46:24
Speaker
Sometimes when it comes to pain and if people can or whatever it is, pain pain is a tricky one and and I get that as someone who suffered severe migraines because of stress and when you're in that pain, you just want to lop your head off and not feel anything anymore.
00:46:39
Speaker
and desperate to do anything for it. What I learned to do with those, for instance, if i I then started to realize there was a space between feeling okay and the pain, and there was this gap in between that I knew it was coming.
00:46:57
Speaker
And so there were these signs and symptoms that were alerting me that I became very aware of. And so instead of being, no, oh, my gosh, the dread of I'm going to get another migraine,
00:47:09
Speaker
the pain is so unbearable and I can't stand it and I'm going to suffer immensely and I can't live like this. The symptoms that I would get were these kind of shutdown symptoms. I called them shutdown symptoms where everything would shut down mentally, emotionally, just this no energy.
00:47:27
Speaker
In that, and I've done this with patients as well, is I changed my relationship to what was coming and changed my relationship to what was.
00:47:39
Speaker
and tended to it in a most different way as if it was an old friend knocking at the door saying, I'm here again, I'm suffering again, can I come in for a cup of tea? Normally we would say, no, get lost, I want you to be. here And it's like, no, yes, come, come, come, come inside, tell me what's going on for you. Yeah, what is it that's within you right now that you feel like you need to shut off from the world?
00:48:03
Speaker
what's What's going on? What's leading to this ultimate shutdown where you want to lop your head off? And could I sit here with that part of myself, and it is parts work, which is Dr. Richard Schwartz's work, those parts of myself that are expressing physically, mentally, emotionally, that we're needing some tender care and attention. And that changed so much when I started to do that because, of course, during all that hideous stress that I was experiencing that was growing within me and the business, and it was being mirrored in in and out constantly, I was experiencing severe pain like migraines.
00:48:38
Speaker
And it was my body ultimately just trying to cope. like the ultimate freeze response, like I'm out, I'm done. And I just realized that instead of resisting something that kept turning out to be met is how could I agree to meet that part of me differently with kindness, with compassion, with space and time for it to unfold itself.
00:49:01
Speaker
And I think that is something amazing. And sure, we know lots about the gut-brain access around gut issues and is it the diet or is it our digestive system's response to the diet?
00:49:12
Speaker
Is it emotional? The IBS we always just put away in that box, it's stress-related. I think it's all of it because I think the stress is creating physical symptoms. That's why people black and blue will look at me and they say, it's not just stress and fear. And I go, yeah, it is physical.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yep. That's led to that, led to that. Now you can't digest that. And now every time you eat that, yeah, it's all of that. I see it all in its little ecosystem. It's the whole killing caboodle.
00:49:43
Speaker
So what I'm thinking is the responsible thing for me to do is to connect this conversation to the the tagline of the podcast, right, which I very rarely do. But we're talking about health in terms of resilience and resilience.
00:49:59
Speaker
whatever may happen in the future to any any individual one of us or all of us collectively, i would be really interested to hear your opinion on resilience and cultivating resilience in our bodies, in our minds, in our hearts, in our homes, because it is all one kitten caboodle, as you say, which I love.
00:50:19
Speaker
That could be like the byline of the book, the whole kitten caboodle. But yeah, what does health resilience mean to you? Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on what I'm about to say to you because this came up this morning.
00:50:34
Speaker
As you know, we do these 21-day seasonal health resets for patients where they pair back all addictive substances, replenish with yummy food. Well, we have come to the cleanse and now people are reintroducing the foods like coffee or alcohol or sugar.
00:50:51
Speaker
And all of a sudden, as when we get to this point, people like, oh, I can't eat that anymore. I'm so sensitive. I don't have, I'm not resilient anymore. I can't eat the things that I used to eat. And I thought how funny that they've used that word resilience.
00:51:07
Speaker
And then I started thinking about then what is health resilience? Because yes, is the goal to be more sensitive, more sensitive, sensory wise, more sensitive to pick up on emotions, more sensitive,
00:51:24
Speaker
to know and feel what is going on around us, inside of us. And so when you pair back and you unmask all the up as and down as the coffee in the morning and the alcohol at night, things bubble up and you reveal things.
00:51:40
Speaker
And then yes, when you reintroduce some of those old habits back in, I can't, i it's almost like and I'm either too drunk or I'm so anxious or it hurts my gut, I'm more sensitive now, and I'm no longer resilient.
00:51:54
Speaker
So then it got me thinking about then health resilience, is health resilience, then just the deeper a deeper awareness, rather than you know, sensitivity being the weakness, is resilience being so aware of what harms us or puts us into misalignment.
00:52:14
Speaker
But then what is the definition of health resilience? And I was curious to about your thoughts on that. Oh my goodness. Well, I love where you're taking that. And this question now is, you know, what role does sensitivity and our attunement and perception have in being resilient? Well, I suppose what I'm hearing is you kind of need to understand the lay of the land or have a kit of senses at your disposal to even appreciate the space you're in and then how to how to respond or how to reassemble the pieces of yourself if they've kind of momentarily shifted or disintegrated like of course sensing is a part of resilience and resilience can easily be painted as like a numbing or a like a callus that's forming that allows you to be inured against some kind of like insult but
00:53:07
Speaker
Is it that or is it more vulnerability? Is it more openness? Is it more presence? Yeah, because often we think of res resumeent being resilient, robust and strong and with a big shield, like you said, like a callous I don't feel, I can move along in the world and I can have that, eat that, I can do anything and it won't knock me down.
00:53:32
Speaker
And then I thought, I'm making all these people super sensitive, like, you know, And I often use the word, oh, you're a really good barometer to health now, like that, you know, you're edging over there, your body's reacting and responding, edging over there, don't go there either.
00:53:48
Speaker
But perhaps because that's right, that it isn't right for you to be going there because that isn't natural and or it isn't where human beings need to be.
00:53:59
Speaker
And that's where we're suffering. Yeah, and then then like, I'm thinking of how many of us feel like the canaries in the coal mine when you feel that you're that person who's sensitive to the ecological collapse and the changing climate and injustice. And that's a lot. And it's tiring.
00:54:18
Speaker
There are times when, you know, similarly to your migraine episodes, it's like, can I just lock my head off or take my heart out because it's too painful to be this feeling individual in this
Daily Practices for Resilience and Closing Remarks
00:54:31
Speaker
world? And All I ever hear from people who are my guides is you have to have the heartbreak, but then also be kind to yourself in that.
00:54:41
Speaker
So, yeah, it's actually much huger than I expected, Anthea. I thought maybe you were going to say drink another glass of water.
00:54:51
Speaker
only just came up this morning. I mean, every now and then it does come up this hypersensitivity and now you've made me more sensitive, Anthea, and it's like, well, Before it's like a sleeping giant. It's those patients who come along and they've been diagnosed and they had no warning signs.
00:55:07
Speaker
They've been diagnosed and given a prognosis of three months and it's awful. And it's like, what? No warning sign? You had no idea. No blood test revealed anything. No signs or symptoms.
00:55:19
Speaker
Just like that. Just routine check. And I think, did they miss the cues? Did they miss the cues because they were wherever they were? Are there always cues? And, you know,
00:55:30
Speaker
It's like you're probably sending following that thread. Are there always cues and exploring that? Yeah. yep Yeah. And I think I would rather be much more sensitive and vulnerable and cry and have my heart broken And sure, we've had our hearts broken. how many times can you have your heart broken by whether it be in relationship or by what is happening globally or just seeing where health is going and healing or wellness? or
00:56:04
Speaker
I feel like I live with a broken heart every single day and I feel like I can cry every single day. And I still use the word and when I think actually that deserves it.
00:56:15
Speaker
And it doesn't mean it's all bad because and it's also beautiful as well. And I think that is ah part of it. And I feel like in in my healing journey is that that is part of the unfolding is to almost heal lots of things along the way.
00:56:32
Speaker
Even if the word is meet or tend to, if it doesn't have to be the big word, heal, tend and meet to a lot of things that were either unjust or misaligned for whatever reason and yeah when you meet those things it's heartbreaking so what are some things in your day-to-day life that help you get out of bed that keep you with enough capacity to hold these things for the people who come through your doors I read a lot or listen to authors that I love that help me unfold certain aspects at different times anything that needs attending to I kind of seek out
00:57:13
Speaker
authors that are in that space that I need to do a deeper dive into to tend to and and just be in that space for a while. So I allow myself that. So the in-betweens will be that.
00:57:28
Speaker
And at the same time, yes, I will always eat well and I cook food and I love food and I feed people and I love sourcing food and I grow stuff and I pick from mum and dad's gardens.
00:57:41
Speaker
I'm back at a gym. I had took a big break from going to the gym, but now that I'm in this junction of perimenopause, menopause, I was doing a lot of yoga. I want to go back to just supporting more of my musculoskeletal system. And I found someone really close to work and, and mostly females working out and that felt good. So all those things, all the things of, of self care,
00:58:08
Speaker
It doesn't look perfect. Sometimes it can look a bit messy, but I've created a world where I can do that and at the same time be off service and at the same time do my own very personal work.
00:58:22
Speaker
Well, it is just always such a delight to spend time with you, Anthea, whether we're recording this for other people to listen to or simply having a big old DNM on a Monday morning.
00:58:36
Speaker
I'm wondering where you would direct people if they want to spend a bit more time with you too. To my website, apothecabyanthea.com. You can follow me on social anthea.colurus.naturopath.
00:58:52
Speaker
But, you know, all the other places, whether it's LinkedIn, I'm not on TikTok. um You won't find me there. But I am on Pinterest. So, yeah, just the normal realm. But I suppose my website and then our store, our clinic in Bourke Street, 346 Bourke Street, Surrey Hills, where they can come and see the clinic and the apothecary. And also ah they can grab a piece of me when they buy our teas online, I suppose, because that is the essence of everything that we do is the products that we make, which are our teas into Sainz.
00:59:21
Speaker
Yeah, they really are the yummiest and even convert the most cynical and wedded of coffee drinkers, I can attest. um And Anthea, can people participate in any of your programs in the ether?
00:59:35
Speaker
Yes. So we've got our 21-day autumn cleanse and health reset coming up in March. So if you go to the website and you click under Academia, that's my courses and programs loan online learning educational portal.
00:59:51
Speaker
And you can even get a membership or a subscription, which just allows you access to everything from our Substack newsletter, which is How to Holistically Heal, which comes out every Monday, to, you know, all the online courses that it might be about regulating the nervous system. It might be about digital minimalism.
01:00:12
Speaker
and And my book, my very, very first book, and yes, I'm writing second book, but my first book, I Am Food, We've done a third reprint because it just is the foundations of source and processing, the absolute basics. It's 50% of the book are recipes that I love, but the first part is health and quality of plants and animals and where they're grown and where they're raised, the foundations.
01:00:38
Speaker
I am food, eating your way to health. ah it's but it's such a special book and we still make your delectable cake recipes especially always remember the chocolate cloud cake oh it is such a joy thank you so much for being here with us Anthea oh thank you I think the world of you I often friend you never know this but I'm gonna say it out loud you're in my realm of a north star so that says a lot you're you're
01:01:09
Speaker
You're a big deal to me and i see you I see what you create and I love it and I'm grateful for you. oh here come the waterworks.
01:01:24
Speaker
That was the superb Anthea Kulouros. And by now you'll know that if something has sparked your curiosity, it's probably linked in the show notes. So head there where I've linked as many relevant goodies as possible.
01:01:37
Speaker
I also noticed that Anthea has her autumn reset starting next week. on March 17th. That feels really timely that I should release this episode the week before and I really can't vouch highly enough, strongly enough for Anthea's methods and supportive, caring, beautiful, genuine, non-problematic programs.
01:01:59
Speaker
She's just one of a kind in naturopathy land. And yeah, when I saw that she was running this autumn seasonally attuned nature connected reset, I really wanted to share that with you.
01:02:10
Speaker
So that's linked below as well. And definitely check it out if you feel like you could use a little bit more space and clarity and energy in your life, especially as we move into the stodgier months, at least in the Southern Hemisphere.
01:02:23
Speaker
Well, it feels like mad March in the Roaming Podcast audio suite with no less than six interviews happening in the next few weeks. I am really fucking busy. It's like the autumn harvest that's happening outside has crossed over into the podcasting realm and I'm capturing and storing and squirreling away all of these spoken wisdoms before winter sets in.
01:02:46
Speaker
So wish me luck. I hope you love the forthcoming episodes and you can always send me an email at katie at katie.com.au and that's Katie with a C. If you have a guest request or something else to say, it really makes my day to hear from you.
01:03:03
Speaker
So please squeeze every last drop of goodness from the week ahead. And thank you so much for listening.