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E14: Lessons from a Laing O'Rourke Senior Project Manager
101 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Carlos and Jason are joined by Laing O'Rourke Senior Project Manager, Calvin Palace.
They discuss the HS2 Interchange Station Project in Birmingham and the similarities to HS2 Ebbsfleet and London's DLR. Calvin also shares learnings as a senior project manager from his impressive experience.
They also touch on Carlos' upcoming trip to the Fehmarnbelt tunnel linking Denmark & Germany.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Offsite Podcast and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone and welcome to episode 14 of the Offsite podcast where we chat all things construction and technology. My name's Carlos and I spend most of my days talking to construction teams about how they deliver projects. And I'm Jason and I build software that construction teams use to deliver their projects. How are you today, Carlos? Yeah, pretty good. Thanks. Pretty good. Um, yeah, it's nice to do an intro that we're not really recording that time. How are you doing?
Carlos' Upcoming Germany Visit
00:00:27
Speaker
You're supposed to not let people poke behind the, peek behind the curtain. Uh, I'm excited about a guest today. And then I think you're off to Germany next week. Is that right? Uh, yeah, part Germany. So we're, we're flying into Copenhagen. Um, but we're going to the FEMON link tunnel project. So we get to see the Copenhagen side, or I should say the Danish side in FEMON and then zipping around to see the German side too. So doing a nice little site tour and taking the robot over from the design team. So yeah, it should be good.
00:00:57
Speaker
site tours in Europe and the UK are definitely nicer than those down there. Yeah. Yeah. Australia is just lots of nothing between each thing, right? And then like heavy construction projects. Not again. That's your other podcast where you just smash Australia.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Guest Introduction: Calvin Palace
00:01:18
Speaker
So today we have a guest, um, senior project manager work for Langer walk currently working on the, uh, HS2 interchange station. Uh, previous projects include Betsy power station, um, on the Northern line extension and technical road on cross rail. He's got way more experience than Jason and I combined. So, uh, welcome to the pod Calvin palace. How are you doing?
00:01:41
Speaker
I wouldn't say about that experiencing too loud. It's amazing what you can get away with when you're blacking up for so long. That is nice. So I'm quite excited today because most podcast guests, if you listen to other construction podcasts, they're all very, very senior professional ivory tower type individuals rather than
00:02:05
Speaker
real project managers delivering real projects. They're not very close to the detail. You are. So yeah, I'm excited to be this one.
Challenges and Significance of HS2 Interchange Station
00:02:12
Speaker
So I'm going to get stuck straight into the weeds. You're obviously in the design and planning phase of Interchange Station. Can you tell us a bit about the scope? So at the moment, it's early days for HS2. We're looking to see how affordable and how capable the current design is.
00:02:34
Speaker
And it's making sure that we can provide HS2 and the DFT, the design that Birmingham Interchange requires. It's interesting, it's challenging, especially with some of the constraints that we have at the moment with rising costs and bits and pieces. And it is difficult, but it is a really satisfying job to be on.
00:02:58
Speaker
Good stuff. And in terms of the station itself, it obviously sits outside of cursor street in the central Birmingham station. What does the overall scope kind of look like if you were to summarize? Well, it's the only new station for HS2.
HS2 Station's Role and Regeneration Impact
00:03:15
Speaker
It's the link that feeds the airport. And one of the main reasons to actually facilitate the high speed rail into Birmingham to get people to the airport.
00:03:30
Speaker
a very similar concept to, I think, to EBS fleet. Yeah, for the high speed one. That's it. It's a very, very similar concept. It's a midpoint transit area, but because of all of the regeneration that's gone around in the area as well.
00:03:52
Speaker
it will actually become a focal point and once the actual triangle space is regenerated around it and built upon and we've got some fantastic plans for it, then it'll become its own hub within a small suburb again.
00:04:12
Speaker
that's going to be every I guess a hub similar to kind of older common with London I guess it's kind of the outer city hub for for that particular station is that actually where the line splits so it you sort of head north and then you split to either Birmingham airport or the city or is it all the same sort of line but an outside sort of station no so it's the same line through but there there is a
00:04:36
Speaker
a transport link that goes from Interchange to the NEC and then over to Birmingham Airport. So it's a high-speed transit link, very similar to DLR. So it's non-manned. Okay, awesome. So obviously your backgrounds, I mentioned Crossrail, Northernland extension, and now obviously moving on to HS2.
00:05:03
Speaker
What would you say as a senior project manager on those jobs? What were the biggest learnings that you would take to HS2 from those projects?
Guiding Clients and Maintaining Project Direction
00:05:11
Speaker
Look at the detail. Understand the end game. Because if you don't know where you want to get to, you tend to lose your path as you get there. And if you go
00:05:31
Speaker
clients or end users.
00:05:35
Speaker
who are unsure of what they require, then you've got to guide them. You've got to help them to understand what they want to get out of the project. Because it could change over time. These things often do. Absolutely. So I guess you're constantly, you're like the middleman between all of the detail and then pick a picture. Because you're constantly, like you have sight of full program, end result, design and everything that you're trying to hurt.
00:06:05
Speaker
They would have referred to engineers as cattle, but the cattle beneath, they're trying to, I guess, rally to that end point. It is that, but I mean, the understanding is that as a project manager or senior project manager or whatever,
00:06:21
Speaker
within the office environment, I'm purely a facilitator. I don't do anything else. I just sit there all day. But my job is to facilitate the guys on the ground or the teams on the ground, get into where they need to get to, because they're the ones that develop and build and people build things. Processors are there to help. And the data will always be there until we manage that data. But my job is purely a facilitator.
00:06:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I guess touching on that and agnostic of any tools, um, just sort of process, how do you run planning on your project or typically.
00:07:02
Speaker
It's a difficult one because we need to change. You've known me for a while. I'm a pure advocate of Last Man Planet and I think it's the right way to go because I want people to have ownership and if they have ownership and they've bought into the task and they've bought into the detail then they will deliver and if they don't deliver then they'll own it and you can move past that.
00:07:23
Speaker
The thing that scares people generally is the unknowns and that's what gets people blood pressure up. If they don't know what's going on then that's what gets them. I'm a real advocate of the planners setting the milestones and then monitoring but not necessarily setting the full plan.
00:07:44
Speaker
Because I don't think there's no disrespect to any planners because I've known some great, great planners, but they don't necessarily know the full detail. And they can't be out there 24-7 because they don't know what's going on all the time. Which is why it really has to be the boots on the ground, the supervisors, the engineers, the package managers that own the plan. And then they feed into the milestones. That's the only way it works for me.
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah. If you look at the size of these schedules, it's impossible for a planet to know the detail of everything, right? Um, so getting the guys at the cold face who are closest to the works to own those tasks. It does make a lot of sense. Um, I feel like Jason's itching to say something. Jason, do you want to jump in?
Focus Challenges in Long Projects
00:08:25
Speaker
No, we have a rule, Calvin, where we don't try and talk over each other because I've been accused of talking over cars in the past. But Calvin, it's lovely to meet you, mate. You said something before, which almost I jumped in on, which is about keeping sight of the end game. If you're talking about the lessons to take from previous projects. And that immediately got me thinking about some previous projects I've worked on, like big jobs, like a crossrail, right?
00:08:52
Speaker
There's an outcome to be delivered, but the project is so long. The amount of people that end up working on that project as it gets bigger and bigger grows and grows and grows. And the amount of complexity and detail that gets thrown up as you're trying to bring together architectural requirements, finishes, M&E, everything.
00:09:14
Speaker
That endgame definitely can get lost sight of and suddenly the whole thing becomes about some side quest that we're working on. With a project with so many people that last such a long time, how can a project keep sight of that end goal?
00:09:38
Speaker
It's fairly basic. In reality, and it sounds really, really wrong of me to say that is you have your key milestones and they are your stepping stone to get to where you need to be. And depending on the size and however complex things get, then you have to trust people. You have to give people the milestones and trust in them to deliver.
00:10:05
Speaker
And they will generally, nine times out of 10, they will do that. It's not an old nature for most people not to want to deliver. We're in the game, especially constructioners and for engineers, they want to solve problems. They want to do things correctly. They want to make sure that they get to the end goal. And as long as you're quite specific with the steps that you want to get to and you articulate
00:10:31
Speaker
how, why, when, so that they can understand what they're feeding into and they buy into the logic, then it makes it so much easier. And what about in like, you're obviously in a design phase at the moment and in my head it was kind of that design and design development where that end game or the end goal of what is this project delivering can sometimes get a little bit lost and that's where you're kind of
00:10:59
Speaker
negotiating requirements between a client, the contractors, designers that you might have engaged. That was kind of what I'd triggered in my mind when you said keeping that end goal inside. Is that also a challenge on the job? Remembering what the core thing we're trying to deliver is?
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah, of course it is. When you look at the service provider, the architect, the final client, they all potentially have different drivers. And for me, one of the biggest ones is, bless them, the architects, they have some fantastic vision. And I really don't know where they get it from sometimes. Their vision is fantastic. Buildability of that vision can be a little bit difficult at times.
00:11:50
Speaker
And you do, as a main contractor, you span that middle ground between the hope and aspirations of the architectural intent and the actual buildability and affordability.
00:12:06
Speaker
and you you you you you drag will not drag that back but you you're trying to get some realization into it of what's what's achievable especially nowadays when you think of the environment health and safety and everything else that we need to do then then there is a big ask but the architects and some of the things they come to come up with are fantastic yeah it can it can be definitely difficult where you know as the project i don't know maybe this is um over reflecting on my own experience but as the project evolves and gets bigger and bigger and time goes by
00:12:36
Speaker
You can find that those architectural ideas start to creep into requirements and then the cost creeps up. You can't be in every single conversation. Suddenly, death by a thousand cuts, there's all these little details that add 50% to the cost. And that's exactly that. You've got to trust your teams around you.
00:12:59
Speaker
And it's amazing what you can get away with being able to blag it for so long, just having a fantastic team around you and trusting them explicitly to get the job done. Yeah, definitely. I think to maybe change tack then, this kind of is an interesting segue.
00:13:18
Speaker
When I looked at your background, I immediately thought of some of the greatest engineers and project managers that I've worked with over 10, 15 years or whatever. So many of them have been from a military background. And as I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about names and faces of people I've worked
Military Experience and Construction Skills
00:13:39
Speaker
with.
00:13:41
Speaker
And obviously your background is from the military, Calvin. And I guess, do you agree with that statement of there's some strong correlation between really high quality engineers and project managers and a background in the forces? And what do you think drives that?
00:13:59
Speaker
And first of all, thanks a lot. I mean, to put me in that position with some of those people you obviously work with is a bit of an accolade. Yeah, look, I think I would agree, not necessarily for myself, but I've known some fantastic people from the forces background who've moved into construction. And it's one of those key items, I think,
00:14:31
Speaker
We believe in the team mentality. It tends to be we rather than me. And they tend to have an adoption of being able to control a room, control an environment, control people, but without controlling them. And treating people for people's sake, but understanding what the end goal is.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I think that's one of the main drivers. And you tend to, most people in the military join at a very early age, they're formative viewers. So it tends to instill in you a set of morals and values that you take forward for the rest of your life, both good or bad.
00:15:17
Speaker
Um, can be a little bit fiery at times. I can be very blunt at times as well, which the inner chimp in me screams and it's taken, it's taken years to get past that. Um, but on the whole, I'd say that, yeah, the, the, the military and the skills that you gain, not only in a professional background, but as a, as a person, it, it sets you up to be a fantastic, um,
00:15:46
Speaker
component within a business.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree. I think there's like the people I'm thinking of and there's been quite a number of them and they're all, you know, they're all definitely firm. They're definitely energetic, but you feel like you're part of a team and you don't feel like you're working for any of them, but you're working with them and you get kind of that, you know, like kind of what you want from like a captain coach of a football team or something like that type of feeling, Calvin, for sure.
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's all part of that ethos of you and it together, it's a shared experience. And I've been really, really lucky to have some really good, good young teams working with me. And I say young and I have been young. I feel like a right old knacker now, the other side of 50. Everything's going down, little bits and pieces are dropping off.
00:16:46
Speaker
But the younger teams, they are fantastic. And people coming through now, they really shine. And they make it easy for people like me. They really, really do. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. And I think something that a lot of folks are definitely passionate about is this transition from the forces to
00:17:09
Speaker
to a civilian or professional role. And obviously, as we spoke about, those folks have a ton to offer. How did you find it, I guess, when you made the transition? And probably, why? How did you end up in construction?
Transition from Military to Civilian Construction Role
00:17:23
Speaker
It was hard. The transition was really, really hard. I think the military's got a lot better now. When I got out in 2000, it was a bit of a difficult time.
00:17:34
Speaker
And a good friend of mine, who's a senior PM in Australia, got me into construction, small civil construction firm back in the UK there. And it was just from there. And it was literally starting from scratch, out on the tills, supervisor, and then just working my way through over the last 20 odd years or so. Well, yeah, it was difficult. You feel, I mean, I joined the Army at 16.
00:18:01
Speaker
And you feel as though you've lost a bit of your family when you get out because you've isolated you all alone. But however many years you've had everything there around you, you've had structure, you've had guidance, you know what your job is. Yeah, you might be working 24 hours a day, but you know what you're doing. And you've always had your mates around you and whatever that is. And you come out and there's a really life and that's it. You're by yourself. And it is quite traumatic. It's difficult.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, when I was working, when I first started as an engineer after I graduated, I worked for a company Australia, John Holland group. And we used to have an exchange program with the Royal engineers and used to send folks over for six months or a year.
00:18:46
Speaker
Every one of the folks that came over were brilliant, that worked on different projects with us. And I think programs like that, they must do a lot to helping that, like give people certain skills that could make that transition easier. Yeah.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you say John Hollands and the guy who got me into construction, actually in Australia, he was working with John. I'm not too sure if he's still there at the moment. I don't want to name drop him on here. Yeah, I don't know. I'll definitely, yeah, I'll definitely ask you who it is after. But yeah, it is a small world. So it is.
00:19:26
Speaker
I guess the other question I had, Calvin, was if I look, you've obviously worked for a number of big contractors over your career since you started with that smaller one you were talking about. Only two. Well, yeah, like Taylor Woodrow, Vinci, and then Langs. Yeah, so Taylor Woodrow was bought out by Vinci, the Vinci Grand Project, so it's the same company, and then Langs. And Langs worked for the last eight odd years, is that right? That's it, yeah.
00:19:56
Speaker
Because I guess one of the things I was talking to Carlos about recently was at Apex we've got this so we get the opportunity to work with contractors across UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. And so we've got this pleasure of interacting with teams from all different companies every day.
00:20:16
Speaker
Something just strikes me different about Lang O'Rourke whenever I'm interacting with, with teams from Lang
Lang O'Rourke's Unique Approach
00:20:21
Speaker
O'Rourke. I don't know. The way that they deliver projects is like definitely a little bit different, but I think most significantly, I don't think I've ever met like a more consistently engaged group of people.
00:20:31
Speaker
Everyone, everyone on a project seems to be really positive about the company. They're like really engaged in their role. And I think the most, the thing that strikes me the most is that they all seem to be like, uh, understanding their role in the context of like the broader project and the company. And so I guess inside the, the tent, would you think it's the same? Like if you compared to say Vinci, is there something different about laying a rock compared to other contractors?
00:20:58
Speaker
I think there is, because a lot of it is self-delivery. And the way Langover work is, and it's a strange one, for the eight years that I've been there, you work hard, you play hard, you have a clear understanding of who you are and where you are and what you do. The same as your team around you does as well. And it's about people. And you give somebody the opportunity, the guidance and the advice to do their job.
00:21:27
Speaker
and you trust them to do it, and you get paid to do a job, do your job. In fact, I wouldn't say it's fantastic to be valued enough to get on and do the job. You get paid to do it, and I think once you get
00:21:47
Speaker
the same people who have the same similar sort of values together, then the momentum that gives you as a company as a business is fantastic. Can you think of what might drive it? Is it like a culture thing? Is it something about the company being a private company and having some of those values still? I imagine it's not by accident, Alvin.
00:22:15
Speaker
No, it's not. I mean, it is, I'm going to sound like a right company man at the moment, but it is generally driven from the top. And it is. It's been a privately owned company. Then you have certain people that you report to. You have certain details that you need to provide. And it's quite clear. And the governance and the guidance is there.
00:22:42
Speaker
And yeah, and I think being privately owned is different and the drivers are different and you can change a lot quicker than if you were hamstrung by another sort of organization because you can be driven whichever way you need to be driven quite quickly without worrying about change and it's fantastic.
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. It does seem unique. Carlos, sorry, back to you, mate. I was like so intently listening to that. And I was like, I need to think about like, what am I going to ask next? One thing that I found really interesting is you've got a lot of focus on like milestones and beating the drum to get everyone to focus on these milestones.
Success Through Milestones and Engagement
00:23:32
Speaker
And like you're at work with a purpose.
00:23:35
Speaker
And it kind of reminded me of like there were two different types of QS's back when I was a QS. Some would just turn up, they do their job, they work on CEs, they pay their subbies and they leave. And then there's another type of QS that's thinking about like, are we actually making money on this package? What are the upcoming milestones? Are we going to hit them damages? And those two different milestones are like,
00:23:56
Speaker
why you need the blunt and fiery that you mentioned. Like sometimes you just need to rattle the room and shake everyone and go, we're actually here to win this job, not just to do our work each day. So, you know, I had to give a shout out to the QS's at some point, but yeah, I think it's the same idea that like, I think you need the blunt and fiery. Because otherwise people in the room just don't get the importance of what we're actually doing. It's not like,
00:24:20
Speaker
You're working in some admin role, you turn up, you do stuff, you go home, and as long as you did it to an extent, it's fine. So I hope you shout out the QS's too, is what I'm saying. Look, they've all got their role to play and they are far better than me understanding the money side of it. In fact, most people are better than me in most things, but that's a different story.
00:24:48
Speaker
No. You're underselling yourself, Calvin. Right. We're funny, a little bit over time. Oh, sorry. You said something? No, no, that's fine. Self-reflection is good. Yeah, absolutely.
Gratitude and Conclusion
00:25:01
Speaker
Calvin, it's been awesome having you on the pod today. So thank you very much for joining. I really appreciate your time. No, look, thank you very much for having me on. Hopefully I haven't bored everybody to death by now.
00:25:14
Speaker
Absolutely not. And that is all we have time for today. So thank you very much, everyone, for listening today.