Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
What Happens When Everyone Plans (And When They Don't)
86 Plays19 days ago
In this episode, Jason and Carlos sit down with Martin Roby, Head of Planning at Volker Fitzpatrick and Volker Stevan. Martin brings decades of experience from major UK contractors, including Balfour Beatty and BAM, and has earned deep respect across the industry.
The conversation takes an unexpectedly philosophical turn as Martin challenges some fundamental assumptions about how construction projects actually work. Using everything from sat-nav analogies to stories about Friday nights in the pub 30 years ago, he unpacks why the industry might be making things harder for itself than necessary.
There's a fascinating discussion about what's changed in construction culture over the past few decades and what that means for how teams operate today. Martin also shares some provocative thoughts about where the real problems lie, and they're probably not where you think.
If you've ever wondered why construction projects sometimes feel more complicated than they need to be, this conversation might just reframe how you think about delivery.
Timestamps:
01:40 - Establishing the core challenge
04:09 - Understanding project navigation through analogy
18:45 - Cultural shifts in construction over three decades
34:19 - The natural tendency to react rather than prepare
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
consistent or a system level across a business how do you think about communicating to people like obligations requirements and how they should think about what what the right set of things is for their project so it is um that's an excellent question jason thank you i the way you you've put that has really uh that's really put me on the spot so that's what you need eight eat in the morning it is especially at least time
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome back to the Offsite
Shared Planning Responsibility
00:00:32
Speaker
Podcast. I am Jason Lansini, joined once again by Carlos Cavallo. And today we are joined by Martin Roby, extremely experienced and respected head of planning in UK major construction. Currently head of planning inside of Volker Fitzpatrick and Volker Stevan in the UK and previously at Balfour Beatty and worked at contractors like BAM.
00:00:57
Speaker
To add some personal framing here before i before i welcome Martin, you know, in the work that we do with lots of different contractors around the world and and working with their projects as well as folks across the projects, as you interact with folks across the company,
00:01:13
Speaker
you can i think you can quickly tell who in different executive or leadership roles have the earned respect of the wider business. And and Martin definitely sits in that category. So very um stoked and honored to have Martin join. Mate, thank you very much.
00:01:30
Speaker
I'm almost speechless at that kind of thing. That's tough for a podcast. I'll tell you that. I mean, i couldn't have written that any better myself. No, thank you very much for yeah for that introduction and thanks for having me on. Good morning.
00:01:45
Speaker
um I'm not even going to like faff around with a lot of setup here. um And I know it's a topic that we've talked about and and you've talked about offline. So ah the the topic du jour of today is ah really easy.
00:02:01
Speaker
Who owns planning on a project? Well, how
Integrating Planning and Delivery
00:02:04
Speaker
long have we got again? lots wicked We can edit it down. We'll do the good notes. We'll definitely go for a few weeks on this one. So I think that is, it's ah it's quite a ah big question. And if we're going to really, really dive into it, I think you could say, depending on the level of program we're talking about, but everyone's responsible for program, for planning, you know, the whole process.
00:02:26
Speaker
the the whole business every project right from top down is does the does the planning but it's just that the event horizons that we're talking about it's just about the density of the the detail and the ownership that goes into it um and i think it is it's sometimes misunderstood so i i'll sit the planning department you know so we we are accountable we're well we we're responsible for the program for the planning element the many things but when it actually comes to the to the delivery the project team absolutely needs to have that accountability and ownership at those different levels so it's often it's often misunder misunderstood i would say throughout our industry and the ownership tends to just see go go towards the planning the number of times we hear it that um you know that your program has in the planet okay and it's it's really about about re-educating i think re-education getting people to to really understand their levels and accountability
00:03:21
Speaker
I wonder if there's ah there's a nuance there that I hadn't thought about. um You mentioned that everyone in the the business is responsible for program, you know, and and as a contracting business, the job is to try and turn up, ah deliver the thing on time and and and under ah under a budget.
00:03:37
Speaker
So ah maybe there's, maybe the controversial topic or the more controversial topic is, i think a lot of people in construction would say a large group of people are responsible for delivering on time and for program.
00:03:51
Speaker
How intertwined is the responsibility to actually plan with actually delivering on time? And is everyone, how broad is the responsibility to plan?
Planning as a Roadmap
00:03:59
Speaker
o Well, I think it depends on the levels that you go to. So if we take it, we, we, we go from sort of the contract program.
00:04:08
Speaker
So we, we, we have that one, that single plan, which is our, our route, our roadmap, where we are at this point to a finished project. And I, I, I'm going to do my best not to go into my analogies, but I can't help it. Sometimes just go in and I can feel what comes straight away. and So the way I describe it is like a sat-na. So the way the program, the planning elements, of the stuff that we we as planning deliver or our role is like but the sat nav for the business so we've got all the information we've got the tool sets but then what we need to do as ah as a team is define the route map that we want to get to we but we define those constraints we define those goals those interfaces as a team so and you know we we've got the the operational team in there we've got the the technical elements of the technical team but we've also got commercial involved too because that plays a big part as well in our strategy of delivery
00:05:07
Speaker
And we plug all that information into into our ah our tool set, the Saturn Ave, and it comes up with Rootmap. And that is our plan of how we're going get to the end. And that's the kind of the overall strategy of how we're going to deliver this job. So we
Challenges in Sticking to Plans
00:05:21
Speaker
just want to follow the plan. And I think some of the challenges come.
00:05:24
Speaker
that we don't always as an industry involve the correct people at the right time to get their buy-in so we we kind of defer back to some of the the individuals so planners for instance so they're going to use the program they they they they generally own that to that software the tool sets that we use to to determine it We've got to make sure that we get the right key operational people involved to make sure they've got the ownership and make sure they understand the constraints and route map. So when it comes to delivery, everyone just follows the plan. And that's going to be the overarching message mentions that we we we try and push out there is just follow the plan. We've gone through the headaches. We've gone through the process.
00:06:04
Speaker
Just do what it says.
Understanding Planning Horizons
00:06:05
Speaker
But when you when you look at that sort of our behaviors we drive to the end of the road and if your sat-nav says turn left which way would you turn you turn left you generally follow the sat-nav but sometimes there's a tendency in our industry that we we the the program says well we'll go and dig a hole over here and decide that we're going to dig a hole in the opposite direction so it's really the um the the The whole team has got to be involved in it.
00:06:33
Speaker
Well, you've got to get the right balance to make sure we're getting the ownership. And sometimes you can over plan things. We just want to follow up that kind of plan. don't know whether answered the question there. maybe go No, I think it goes i think exactly goes back to that thing that you talked about around ownership. the The likelihood of the team to turn left when the route says turn left is probably directly correlated to how much they ah have belief in and ownership of the route that they're following. This is going to seem like maybe a quite a basic question, but it's amazing how many different answers you would hear in different teams around the world. You talked about the different like event horizons or planning horizons or levels of the
From Planning to Commitment
00:07:11
Speaker
plan. When you think about what that looks like, what what are those levels and the different horizons and and who who owns them?
00:07:18
Speaker
At each of those points. So if you think we've we've got... It very varies all the way through, depending on the project. So many variables in everything that we do.
00:07:28
Speaker
And think on the planning side is it's never going to be perfect. Well, there's an overarching principle of about where we want to roll and really get our accountability. So if we're looking at project delivery for a contract level program, which determines where we are to the end of the project that that ownership and that accountability absolutely has got to be the project leads that's that's where they've got to really really own that program really buy you to that watch you can follow follow that process and manage the the longer term event horizon which are at higher level so you know we we we tend to um and i think industry-wide there's a tendency sometimes to swim in the detail of a program and to
00:08:07
Speaker
to plough through thousands of activities and produce plans that are absolutely gigantic on some a lot of our our major projects. and And sometimes go a bit into tune to detail, which takes away the effectiveness of the program.
00:08:21
Speaker
And so that that is definitely, I think, sits with that project lead. but you've got the planner who will help in and deliver that and manage it so accountability sits with the project the responsibility sits with planning with the planner at that high level and it's a very fine balance sometimes the accountability and responsibility sometimes we can we miss it a little bit and then if if we just do a quick skip right down to the bottom end about when When does a program stop becoming a program and a plan to actually a commitment to deliver? So he's got a plan to commit to deliver.
00:08:59
Speaker
yeah and And as we get into that bottom end, then that's got to be every individual with a commitment on that plan effectively for that next five days. So and I'd say as ah as a broad thing, we've got that weekly plan around the event horizons of let's sit down and agree what we're going to do for that next week's work.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah. and And go and deliver those things. And everybody understands that these are the things that we're going to deliver. And if we talk, keep it we we
Planning: Past and Present
00:09:26
Speaker
talk about last plan, we talk about all the different methodologies that we that are within the planning side. But it's five days worth work. We should be able to commit to those five things and so everybody's involved in that as a whole team we've got commitment we've got a granularity of output and requirement and then we just go and do all that's safe so it almost changes from a plan into a commitment an action list
00:09:52
Speaker
And then there there's the sublub from there on the day-to-day delivery and the day-to-day application. who you know who who in your in your mind is best to own that that plan for the five or seven days, depending on the the calendar, of the projects? it's got to be It's got to be the individual to do that. You've got to roll it to certain level, but depending on the on your structure, that might be the senior engineers or the agents who are responsible for their little sections and their properties. So I think that ownership sits with them, in the accountability.
00:10:21
Speaker
They've got that target of the contract program that they're trying to achieve the output and productivity. And that's where we've got to get into the nitty gritty. It's about the production. It's not necessarily about a program or links. It's about the production.
00:10:34
Speaker
what What are we trying to do? What are we trying to achieve? What are our targets for this day? We're going to achieve 10 of those things, 25 of those things. And that's definitely got to sit with the the the delivery team, the agent level, the the engineers.
00:10:48
Speaker
They've got to have that commitment and then they pull it out. And then there's a bit of a gap in between the two. So how we might we might change those. so small projects, we we can manage in those two elements, but on the big mega projects or about even the the larger infrastructure projects that we deliver,
00:11:04
Speaker
we we have something in between, you know we may go for those three month kind of focus periods where we look at the sort of the collaborative space where how are we defining these, where are our interfaces and ensuring that we can deliver that. And that's that's a blend of the of the different roles. So your project manager still needs to be in the project leading and accountability.
00:11:24
Speaker
So we then through the agents, through each of those sections and and even some of the engineers instances that that they should have that accountability so very much a blended mix depending on the dynamics of the of the project and the the clients they were working for and stages that we're at i always always uh taught from a on a very first project to from a ah construction director who who was ah a big believer in planning and and program that the the levels and the horizons at the levels should reflect um the time frame in which you can solve a problem in that
00:11:57
Speaker
plan. So if i if i'm if I'm an engineer and it's going to take me four weeks to solve a procurement problem, I need to be planning more than four weeks out because otherwise by definition, I'm um um in trouble if i'm if I'm planning less than that.
00:12:09
Speaker
Absolutely. It's an interesting way of of of doing it. brief It's quite difficult to manage sometimes when you start to look at ahead and in each of the stages. So and we we sometimes i think within our plan within how we produce that information if we go a little bit overboard in our contract level program there's the expectation well everyone can deliver there's the program it's going have enough granularity in there to enable us to do everything and then we just go over killing it which then means it takes away from the ability to use it for that that view and i think what you when you say there jason is absolutely
00:12:46
Speaker
it's bang on that that we should be just looking at that horizon at each other different levels so as we as well as we're viewing the the controlable program we've got to focus on the next kind of 12 weeks 12 weeks is a kind of comfortable specs and we've got visibility so anything say that procurement item that might be a 20-week manufacturing period It sits within that initial kind of notification, the commencement of that design, the engagement with our suppliers.
00:13:14
Speaker
It sits in that timeframe. We've got the visibility of that, that we can view where that's going to and really start to understand it. And then as we're as we're going further down the chain, got a three week, we're looking
Impact of Modern Culture and Technology
00:13:26
Speaker
three weeks ahead, but we've already sorted the longer term stuff at the higher level.
00:13:30
Speaker
And as we as we're in that weekly plan, we're looking a few weeks ahead of that. It gives us the ability to not overkill on the level of detail, not overdo it for the for the engineers who will do the programs, but there's enough notice in there for things that are going to be delivered or we need to do a couple of weeks in advance before we get to that point in time. So maybe the call off of some simple materials that are on that, but that's your call off. But yeah, it is all around that, that the distance, the event horizons for but the periods to make sure that we don't miss those trips.
00:14:08
Speaker
Because we do, and and i think I think it is an industry-wide when you look at the figures, if you collate the figures, I'd love to see the data about the the the industry, about the honest data about the number of times delayed activity because we've not been ready, not been in there, we've not got to them, we've not had the materials or the plans available because we've not ordered it in time on all the short turnaround.
00:14:31
Speaker
i think I think industry-wide, it shows some really, really, really kind of sobering information. Sobering data. Unfortunately, that but data probably lives in a bunch of erased whiteboards. yeah Back on the um like the ownership piece of, obviously, the construction team, like owning planning. And once we've had a bunch of conversations around, you've got projects who are well into the idea that everyone plans, and you've got projects that go, planners do the plan.
00:15:01
Speaker
Do you think that ownership piece, I guess what I'm saying is you think it's actually around how we label things and people's perception of what planning is? Because your example there of your planning isn't like these the days I'm going to be on site building X. It's the pre-thought of everything that I need in place. It's the permits, the documentation, the procurement.
00:15:20
Speaker
And even if we think about things like daily site briefings, like they're all planning. Do you think it's a label thing where people think that they're not planning, but they actually are? And it's actually those that just go, okay, this is all part of the planning process and actually,
00:15:35
Speaker
That's where it's like that moment when they all go, okay, fine. This is actually the majority of our job is really planning. No matter what level you sit at. It's a good way of explaining that. So I think you're right. i think it is frightening thing. We've created the planning function, which has changed what we do. So,
00:15:55
Speaker
Let's go back now. um um I'm not a 19th century weaver. Call me a Luddite. It's not about technology. if I'm not in that zone. But sometimes you just have to look back a little bit just to see how we do things, just to just to check that are we in the right direction. So I feel another analogy coming on. So if we go back 30 years, and so I was on the project as a site engineer on a project. We're going to deliver the job. and my my office, I've got a steel container six miles up the of the cutting, no contact to the outside world, got a little generator that just gives me a little bit of electric and different times back then, different times. and
00:16:33
Speaker
But we'd wed we go and deliver, we'd we'd set out and then once a week, I'd drive down to the office and and through the site, we'd have an hour long meeting, just an hour,
00:16:44
Speaker
um we'd sit down and we'd take our little weekly program together which we'd have our three months kind of a look at to work from we'd sit down with the program that i'd already been through with our works manager the form and with the project team on my section then we sit together as a as a as a team and then agree this is what happened last week these are the challenges this is what we're going to do for the next three weeks but here is the commitment for next week and then after that one hour meeting i drive back up to my other section just to stay in the dark for the next the next five days but whatever we put in there that's what we delivered because yeah everybody planned because there was no other way of doing it we didn't have mobile phones we didn't have the internet we didn't have all of those though those bits and no communication so i knew and that commitment that in four days time there's going to be a concrete pump driving down that cutting with 100 cubic concrete behind it because we're going pour that column
00:17:38
Speaker
and And we did. and we delivered it on that. And that's what where I think the realisation is we all planned, that we all committed to what we were going to do. and I think culture has changed somewhat. If you if you're actually reflected that into your your home life.
00:17:55
Speaker
And crazy as it is, 30 years ago, I'd go out with a 10-on-1-8. I did have 10-on-8s, Carlos, that's true. And we'd go to the local pub and we'd have a few drinks and then we'd go out to the town and then we'd have a great night
Ownership and Communication in Planning
00:18:11
Speaker
and a load of drinks and then get last hour and say, well, great, let's do this again next week without any further communication, without any conversation with anybody because we couldn't text, we didn't have phones, we didn't have anything, we wouldn't see each other.
00:18:24
Speaker
for the whole week the 10 people who said yes we'll see you at r7 on the next friday night turned up at 10 plus 7 on friday night because that's what we had to do there was no other way of doing it we ran the scenario now and i spoke to my nephew who's 20 years old um a few weeks ago about this as well that the he was absolutely flabbergasted that that's the way we do it but you don't do that it'd be a constant communication all week through messaging with Or you go in, I'm not sure. And then you wouldn't know who was going to turn up until that time. And then you'd make half an hour past. Exactly. So you kind of go through as anyone turn up and there's three of you stand there.
00:19:02
Speaker
and And what we've done in culture is we've brought that way of working. into work and unfortunately what we do because of the the nature because we need to make sure plan for everything so it's safe you know first and foremost everything's safe we've got the right controls in place we've got all of the deliverables and all the things that we need to enable us to do that tax we have to have those planning and i think that's where we kind of we we're we're aware at because we react because we've got the ability to just ring the call up and order some materials, or because we've got that instant kind of reaction in the and and our ability to communicate in emails, all ah our event horizons are really, really being compressed.
00:19:46
Speaker
and And we are kind of, we're not in the zone. What we should be is the other way around. Technology should allow us to commit much earlier than one week. And life should be a lot simpler. So I think there's kind of ah there's a juxtaposition somewhere in that.
00:19:59
Speaker
at the the that we've not got that communication, we're not really getting out there, that planning is everything he did to go and deliver it. It's not just ah an individual sitting on a board.
00:20:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah interesting it's an interesting like combination of points that you you both made, Carlos and and Martin. like As you said, Carlos, even the supervisor that sits down in the afternoon to to think about what the briefing for tomorrow, but that's planning. that the It's a different horizon, but that everyone's job has some form of thinking about what has to happen. at some forward horizon, what I need to get done, what resources need to be there, what documents need to be approved. And it's ah it's ah it's a question of horizons and and frequency probably are the two variables. Martin, I wonder, you know, your point about like the culture and the, don't know, um
00:20:50
Speaker
There's probably a big meta point that can get quite philosophical about people's willingness to commit to things in today's age. But ah hump you know in your example of of of ah you know going once a week to the office ah to do that planning meeting, that actually doesn't look quite crazily different to what what I remember doing not too long ago. How much does the change also relate to, I don't know if you had it on your project, but but definitely on mine, we wouldn' there wouldn't be a full-time plan. there, planner might turn up, fly to the project once a month and go, what's been happening? How much does the the sort of maybe increase in in planning resources have maybe confused people to think that that's where the planning happens now? I think, yeah, we we we definitely need to tread carefully around that our ownership and make sure we deliver the right message around following plan that, like said before, the accountability and responsibility within it. So,
00:21:45
Speaker
30 years ago it was a very decent he said it was a different different world you know obviously the the way in which we did things the types of contracts and i think the contract thing has really made a difference within our industry the yeah like the contract that we use where uh know the nec contract for instance it really puts the program at the core of everything that we do and it's the hub of the project so the requirements for somebody to manage it help manage those quite complex in times and and yeah would be mentioned int that that that's really really raised the planning role to the fore
00:22:18
Speaker
and But what I would say is 30 years ago, the planning commission did slightly different stuff. So there was the program up update, but it wasn't a dynamic environment. It was more of a static, the program stood stood on the wall if it was an old NEC, sorry, ICE contract was 14 and would stick on the wall. and And that would be our kind of overall intent.
00:22:38
Speaker
then the agents say and that the the pms were that were in their sections they would have more control and do their kind of own look aheads at how they're going to deliver the work so it was kind of clear that the ownership was still with with them to deliver but there was kind of planning functions but they did maybe bit a bit more on the procurement and the materials management and ensuring that the the the kind of the control of the the deliverables like curbs, for instance, on big road jobs that that they're managed and controlled in a way that we maintain our our effective use of it. So we don't want to waste the gym and control it.
00:23:13
Speaker
If we go absolutely through to now, we've got the planning teams and who are solely responsible for that planning element. And we can know we get the controls bit that ties into it as well as a lot of project control that that goes into the program.
00:23:27
Speaker
making sure in all of these all of these things. But if definitely the accountability sometimes is confused. When you start looking at the delivery of those of that that responsibility, and like I said before, we do well in our business now around making sure that the accountability is clear, that it's our project leads that really are.
00:23:49
Speaker
certainly in previous previous experiences that I've had in our industry, there's there's always been that thing around, well, it's your program. and what yeah What does your program look like? And then it's we we there is a confusion out there that i'm ratherling it this isn't your program. I've been trying to get into into the industry and HR about things we can say. But when we hear that about the response book, I'm not quite on that offline yet. So we have to be very polite and just reinforce the fact that it's the project program, and the team's program, the delivery. summarizing some of what you we said right at the start, there's you know there's ah there's this overall master schedule to completion that is the route thaty to to use your analogy. And then,
00:24:30
Speaker
Almost every project seems like they they need that plan for the next five or seven days and that's ah that's a requirement. And then there's something on this day-to day to day. And then it seemed like it was a horses for courses or some flexibility of what the middle looks like. If I think about a common friction or pushback to like a very strict last planner, for example, is it's like a one size fits all and might be overkill for one project, might be underkill for another. you know, in the role of head of planning and you're trying to think about at a consistent or a system level across a business, how do you think about communicating to people like obligations, requirements, and how they should think about what what the right set of things is for their project?
00:25:14
Speaker
So it is, and it that's an excellent question, Jason. Thank you. The way you've you've put that has really yeah that's really put me on the spot. So... That's what you need at 8 in the morning. It is, especially at this time. It was a long night last night. I'm not sure about this.
00:25:31
Speaker
and the Everybody learns in a very different way. Everybody understands in a very way. And we often say, and this is very much an industry-wide thing, and we often always say, we've got to go back to Brexit.
00:25:43
Speaker
Let's go back to basics. But I think we're kind of missing the point a little bit there. It's not back to basics. It's actually, we need to reinstate what the basics are. Because by saying back to basics, we're inferring the people that have done it before. got generations of people in our industry now who've never experienced these things. And I think that's something that we we often overlook. we just presume that, well, this is how we're going to roll out and and this is the expectation that we want me to do.
00:26:07
Speaker
So what I try and do is really understand people that we're dealing with. you know how How do they learn? What's the best way in which we can set those expectations?
00:26:17
Speaker
And it's a very difficult task because every project is different and the clients are different. The scale and size and the detail we go into are different. And it's a bit of a different world now as well, because and I know I said, I'll never go up'll i'll come back. It's bit like Billy Connolly. I'll start off on one thing and I will finish at the end of the question. So if we look at, so we were talking about this, Euston and Carlos, weren't we around? The way in which we engage with people, the way in which three we we we try to roll out is very, it's it's very different. So we've got to look at getting the clarity of the expectation and around around how you're going to do that planning, around how you're going to,
00:26:56
Speaker
really link that information out there and how we detail the the the training and experience for individuals. So if we're going, I'm probably losing my track a little bit on on this one, but if you look at the... It's part of the course for me, so that's fine. It's really... Yeah, there was a lot of conversation got a conversation going on last night around around Christmas and and the whole the whole thing and the whole planning around around i'm delivering it. So I'm constantly thinking about the Christmas side of stuff. the that the the engagement of the individual. So we've got to look at how I roll that out i we're all enough to the team. so
00:27:39
Speaker
It's around functioning and structuring sort of the standard way in which the expectations are from a business point. So this is this is the expectation that we want to do. and This is how we then want you to roll it out. And we want to make sure that we we engage with and the process. So it's clarity on process. It's clarity on expectation. We walk them through.
00:28:00
Speaker
And what the teams in that, that's the the approach that we go through is what the teams through, setting the expectations, setting the value that they get from that as well. And I think that's something that we often miss is we don't tangibly give a team to be understanding of what value they're going to get from this, how this improves their lives, how this makes things better for them.
00:28:19
Speaker
and And then we we really pushed that into then the tool sets. And it's a very different kind of culture where we are going back to the the days of past, the own pen and piece of paper and drawing it out. and And it was awkward to do those things.
00:28:33
Speaker
So we wanted to commit because we didn't want to rub it out and redo it again. And so the tool set doesn't really give them the the answer and really like allow them to do the planning. It's the understanding behind it but there's a fourth element to it the that really makes a difference which is the want and that's sometimes embedded in the process if the want isn't there then the whole process can fail and we end up not in that zone and not really developing and delivering so so how i'd roll that out and how we engage with our teams is really we can give it we'll give them the understanding why we're doing it we actually set the process the expectations and we can give them the tool sets to use to really make this effective and engage and collaborate
00:29:16
Speaker
But we really focus on the want and really why you want to do that, really getting that embedded in that culture of of really this is part of of the day-to-day stuff.
00:29:27
Speaker
I want to do this because I'm going to get a benefit from it. It's going to make my life easier and it's going to give a bit of headspace. When we go into the the thing, we we as ah as ah as a kind of an industry, we enjoy the...
00:29:38
Speaker
thrill the adrenaline rush of solving issues. We like that. thing oh We've got a problem. Everyone rush in. Let's go through it. And at the end of the day, we say, brilliant. We've solved that problem. But problem in the first place, these because we didn't plan or deliver the program, and almost, you know, you almost get to the point of, I want to make everybody's lives a little bit boring.
00:29:58
Speaker
We don't want to have that adrenaline rush. We don't want to go into that zone because we don't need it. We want to give that headspace. So the headspace, which is all about the reaction, we get that time back and everybody's lives are a little bit easier and a little bit better and we can focus more on our safety, focus more on our quality, we can focus more on our delivery. and And so it's really that kind of underpinning behavior, sorry, which I think is a big challenge that we've got to try and try and do.
Aligning Culture with Planning Practices
00:30:23
Speaker
But it all goes around the getting the, establishing the basics, teaching every everybody what they need to do and really going down that route. It sounds like, ah it sounds like there's an element if I, if I, if I try to play back as well, there's an element of like yeah alignment on the why or what what the, what we're trying to achieve as a business and um and people's roles. There's some clarity and and responsibility around outcomes, but maybe some flexibility on like means and methods ah to to get there rather than the opposite, which is like,
00:30:54
Speaker
like rigidity on the the means and methods, and then people not knowing why the hell they're doing the thing. if i was to If I was to summarize what ah what i would I think you said.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. Good summary. Like the the exciting thing is the fire that's burning now. And it's quite boring to think about problems in six months. And if we actually think about the whole process is we've got more and more concentration of people, like their thinking and eyes on what's happening today and then this week and then next week and then six weeks 12 weeks to the program so the biggest win or gain you can have if you talk to say a design team is you can make the biggest impact by doing something five years before but we're actually drawing all the resource towards the thing that's happening this week so that's almost destroying the reality fifth attitude yeah it doesn't work and then is when you have that platform there was an
00:31:52
Speaker
Now, this is going to be a challenge, see if I can remember it, but there was in there a television show back in the 80s where i in the the he came with a quote and it was like, planning is an unnatural process.
00:32:08
Speaker
and it's much it's much better to react to things on a day-to-day basis rather than have days preceded by worry and depression around how things are going to go. So the inner end of that quotation, what he's trying to get out there is that if we plan, then you've got to you've got a plan and a commitment that we need to go and deliver and you can worry about that plan.
00:32:30
Speaker
If you don't plan, then you you don't worry about the stuff. And then when it fails, it's a complete surprise. And that's that that's kind of a thing we've got to get out of is that we almost normalise failure. We normalise that there's going to be an issue where can we we can react to it. And that's where I think the ownership of our planning and who is accountable for planning is really, really a key message. that We've got to get that out there, that it really is about delivering that programme that we've got our own commitment. to we
00:33:00
Speaker
And and we we don't need to worry about it because it's planned and everyone's going to follow it. I just, producer Oliver's come up with the goods here. So apparently is it the troubleshooter with Sir John Harvey Jones? is That's it That is it. Yes. That is it. Perfect. Come up with the goods.
00:33:15
Speaker
Yeah. what what One thing that that you were saying that that brought back a ton of memories for me, Martin, is, yeah, that idea that like planning, suddenly, yeah, there's something that can go wrong and you're responsible for that plan. And it it can be perceived to be almost safer just to like,
00:33:33
Speaker
not disassociate is probably not the right word, but to not have the plan. I think if I reflect on my formative years in the industry and the thing that probably shaped the the want and the need to plan was early construction managers and project managers that had zero time for people with no plan and really drilled that as the culture building being totally surprised by something going wrong that in the end was probably very obvious that was going to go wrong.
00:34:02
Speaker
That's the thing that you have to like stamp out or drive in terms of a culture as opposed to the person that had a plan and yeah, something something did go wrong on the plan and we action it and we we fix it. Yeah, it's amazing how much it just comes back to culture pretty much. It really does. Yeah, it really, really does. And I think that, you know, we've...
00:34:24
Speaker
we we often say that and i think something that i always comes out is the plan was wrong the program was wrong and actually what i would argue is that the the plan is never wrong because it's based on the the concept of of what you've taken into account at that point in time really where we go wrong is we don't understand the stuff that's behind it so we don't understand why we've got a particular series of the you know with the the logic that's within the program we don't understand there's like a critical constraint sits behind and And that's what's kind of driving it.
00:34:55
Speaker
We've got a duration of an activity we're going into it. That's based on a level of resource and output and a risk element to it. And we don't understand what that is. We just presume it's wrong going from there. So it's really that clear understanding. And that's where the ownership is. They've gone back into the full team so they can, they understand everything that's within there. And that's something that we really focus on.
00:35:19
Speaker
and around that communication, at that level of detail, the communication of all the stuff that goes behind it, that the program isn't, and planning isn't just a Gantt chart that sits on a wall or sits in a piece of software somewhere that that we easily keep o ourselves busy and changing on a monthly basis. It's all of the stuff that goes with It's all of the detail, that you know the the schedules, how we're going to deliver stuff, the method statement schedules, are procurement schedules. It's the it's the narratives that go behind It's our sketches. It's our short term stuff. It's the day to day briefing.
00:35:51
Speaker
That's all planning that kind of goes into it. Yeah. That ownership and accountability, plan it just it drives, I think, the importance and value of that once a week meeting that you would drive to to have and and um and the the the rigorous debate around, you know, i think the the plan says it's going to, to the the master schedule says this should happen in five days. I don't think we can do it in five days. Why not? have we considered this option? What are the other, you know, it's not it's not like a like a human failing of you as the engineer if you don't hit that date. That's not drawing the experience of the room. that is the fact that That's often the kind of the case, right? it's a clarity around how we how we communicate those expectations now. so
00:36:34
Speaker
yeah the The overall level of the detail and activities is it contains all of the elements that that we think, including our risk, including all of all of the the kind of strategy of delivery. When it tears down, fundamentally, though we can only do what we can do. and and this is why i planning the last That last of thought comes into it, that we have to communicate with the team that they can't say well we're going to work on Thursday the contract program tells tells us we're going to put the breach deck on on Thursday and and as of Monday we still haven't built foundations you know that's not going to happen we so we we can't expect and we absolutely shouldn't expect our project team to say well well we must plan that because this is what the the contract program says is it's got to be a reality that we go out and then at least we understand where we're going to and
00:37:19
Speaker
And that's that's kind of a real key part of the that planning process and the ownership of that project team. I'm quite passionate about that, that getting that right and helping the teams kind of go and deliver it because he it really will make their life so much better and so much easier.
00:37:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's ah it's almost like the um the failing of someone in the delivery team isn't the isn't not hitting the master schedule dates. It's not having the plan of how we go to get there as quickly as possible. da yeah That's it. that's it And likewise, you we we often have to caveat it. We always caveat it with the fact that that doesn't mean that it's fine that if you know you done you fail to achieve what you're committed to do.
00:37:57
Speaker
It's about getting commitments, delivering on those commitments. It's got to be right and we've got to go and deliver. It's like last planner and all of the control machines that we use as an industry. There's absolutely some fantastic things out there.
00:38:13
Speaker
We've got to use them in the right circumstances and the right expectations. We often use them in places where doesn't really give us the answer and it and it has an almost negative impact on on having that clarity of plan and being able to deliver it because we set an expectation that you must do these things even when it's maybe little bit impossible. And that's that impacts that ownership of the plan. Totally.
00:38:36
Speaker
the the delivery so it's a real it's a real kind of area that we need to protect and really really kind of engage with yeah hundred percent a lot of obviously a lot of what we've spoken about today is around behaviors and obviously behaviors are really often driven from leadership yeah do you think with something as core as planning and how projects operate like if you're if a if a team is interviewing a project manager Would you be talking through what's your ethos behind how you run a project and planning and ownership and that sort of thing? Does that turn in at that level so that you're you're pulling people into projects that are aligned with...
00:39:13
Speaker
how you and the business operate? Or do you think that's typically secondary because we're relatively resource constraints industry to you hire people and then you're trying to back fit this behavior and either way of working?
00:39:27
Speaker
I think the utopia is you absolutely the zone with of that is a core skill when people can't throw up from the project leads, from the project delivery. Our industry, we we're not flush with the competence and the people. and But it is something definitely that is part of those communications, part of that conversation that goes on.
00:39:48
Speaker
But we're really focusing on that delivery as well and that training and expectations. Because you're definitely within the project manager side of things. We've got, why it was like I said before, we've got people going into the positions that never experienced things before. you know did the and And I think I was, I'm going to say fortunate enough. I'm not sure whether fortunate enough is that he's the right answer. It means i'm old.
00:40:11
Speaker
But I've got, i I kind of, I learned in ah in ah in the non-digital world, in the analog world, I've kind of developed my career in the in the digital world. So I've almost bridged the two bits. So I've done it all manually before.
00:40:27
Speaker
but now I can use a technology to understand it. But because of that, I think i'm um um' it it clicks in my brain so I can understand the things and the reasons why and what benefit it brings.
00:40:39
Speaker
And when we look at that at the kind of the the new generations coming up through the through training, not experience the analogue, and and at risk of sounding like, oh, we'll die again. and Sometimes, though, that analogue side of things really gives you the understanding of why we're doing these things. Because I think a lot of stuff, we're just doing it because we used to do it, but we're not explaining why. So there's definitely a training bit that comes into that thing with the project readers and the project managers around.
00:41:05
Speaker
here is that the benefit here is your tangible benefit you can get from it so yeah we'd love that then we'd love everybody to be at that level i'd love everybody to be absolutely embedded a really driving probe and i mean i probably shouldn't say but what i always view something for planning and the planners i would like the planners to be the project managers with additional skills so it's that ah if that's how i would look at look at the planner is that they're really embedded across all the parts of it And that's your but project manager for me that that that really, really helps the program and drives that, drives that delivery and understanding of it.
00:41:41
Speaker
I always, I always know when I've had, we've had a enjoyable
Conclusion and Future Engagement
00:41:44
Speaker
conversation ah in the podcast and that's usually when I've got to none of the questions that we wanted to to get to and ask.
00:41:53
Speaker
Well, if you're right for another hour, we can carry on. We'll have to do have to do the follow on conversation, I think, Martin, because I got probably like one tenth through the set of questions that I that i had thought that we wanted to get to. But um thank you very much for the the conversation. And, you know, I think there's a it's.
00:42:12
Speaker
has driven a lot of thought for me around how much it all it comes back to to culture and alignment of incentives and and the outcomes that we're trying to drive so yeah thank you very much for for the time and um cast you want to read us out Yeah, thanks, Martin. And thank you very much, everyone, for tuning into today's show. If you did enjoy today's episode, please do think about liking the video or following us on your chosen podcast platform. We appreciate your support and we'll see you all next week.
00:42:42
Speaker
Bye bye.