Transcript
Speaker: ah I guess you've been to probably even more events than I, I don't know. Have you got a take on on construction events generally? And then probably leading to the question of like, does anyone do it well?
Speaker: ah They very much feel like Groundhog Day. Every time you go, it's the same people with the same stand doing the same pitch. And ultimately these vendors are here just to remind everyone they exist and hoping people fall into their sales funnel because they're going get a footfall.
Speaker: But it's construction's incestuous. So you've got the same crowd of people with a different company each time. looking at the same companies. Sorry, you just had me incestuous. I was not literally figuratively. Yeah, figuratively. Yeah. So it feels like it's just this rinse repeat model of like uninspiring.
Speaker: We still exist. Here's a demo and try and get some sort of footfall and give them a pencil or a mug. So yeah it's all quite depressing.
Speaker: This is such a British intro.
Speaker: Welcome back to the Offsite Podcast, episode 89. I am Jason Lancini and joined once again by Carlos Cavallo. Today, we are talking about a massive $28 million dollars raise from an early stage Middle Eastern um construction technology company called Wakecap.
Speaker: um Next, we will ask ourselves if we're going to run a construction event, which we might do, how would we make it good? Aka construction events, you bad, why?
Speaker: And then finally, we're going to review and discuss a post from the community, construction technology community, saying that basically finding a niche is the best way into the construction market.
Speaker: Don't go mass market first. Carlos together in person in London. It's nice. How are you, mate? Yeah, well good. Thanks. All good. It's nice to have a bit of a a tan for my trip to Vietnam with a camera.
Speaker: but ah Is that why you spend half an hour at that high fidelity? If anyone's seeing our two cameras side by side, I look like I'm being filmed through a shower a shower window. Carlos looks like he's got James Cameron doing... as a There's a ring light in the office. I'll bring that out next time. but For you or for me? Yeah.
Speaker: You probably need it more. It looks like I'm the producer and you're you're doing a one person show. yeah No, it's good see you i'm I flew into London and yesterday after we had it with a week in Vietnam.
Speaker: No stories there. Nothing happened. Totally normal work days. Very good fun. um Yeah. Very cool moment to see what 45 ish people come together largely remote for the first time. So yeah.
Speaker: And different people's karaoke skills. People people on to live on a spectrum. I'm the one end, the low end. yeah Others at the opposite. And then there's JP.
Speaker: yeah yeah Some serious talent in the team that was uncovered. ah before we Before we dive into topic one, I feel like i feel compelled to re ah read this. I don't normally sit on the Autodesk user forums and read them all day, ah but I thought this one was worth reading out loud.
Speaker: Dear Autodesk team, I'm writing to express my profound disappointment and disgust with your recent commercial that mocks God. As a longtime user of your software, I've always valued your company's innovation and contributions to the design industry.
Speaker: However, the advertisement crosses a serious line and shows a lack of respect is both offensive and unacceptable. Your marketing team's decision to produce such content is not only misguided, but also alienates loyal customers like myself.
Speaker: And it goes on. And the subject line is ah concern regarding recent Autodesk commercial. So this relates to ah an ad campaign that Autodesk recently produced, which pictures themselves as somehow...
Speaker: I don't know, some have said like an equivalent to God or God. I probably wouldn't go so far. Basic idea is that God has less work to do in creating stuff because Autodesk has kind of done a bunch of it.
Speaker: True? Not true? what do you think, Harv? Is that your letter? I think it's a slight overreaction. Trigger levels are pretty low these days. But ah the thing that I was nicely surprised about, ah to put a positive spin, was it like ah an actual marketing effort and ah for a construction tool.
Speaker: Like it was a real advert that you would see for like... Like a like a real company. Like a real company, yeah. So to see professional marketing and construction for arguably the first time, which may or may not have...
Speaker: It might be the last first you first say last time. yeah it It was nice to see it. um Like it was, yeah, it was, it was legitimate. Yeah. I think a overreaction to an extent, ah most major marketing campaigns trigger some people.
Speaker: in some way. What do you think that I think like anyone in the industry that is a potential customer probably knows of Autodesk. So what do you think the like, why mass market to the broader world? Yeah, well, it could be the start of like almost a rebrand. It's the same as like why advertise Coca-Cola?
Speaker: Maybe it's the start of maybe they're going for more mass market products. Maybe they're going to do something slightly differently because in that advert, they They're to release it on code. They push the non-construction engineering side, manufacturing and everything else.
Speaker: And I don't know how big they were in that space, but it was quite obvious that that was like almost equal balance to construction. So, yeah, wonder if they're going to diversify a bit.
Speaker: You don't think it's fending off competition? It could be. Or maybe the marketing team just had a great idea and thought they'd throw some money at it. Yeah. And then maybe Mr. Barr on a few notes.
Speaker: But we'll see. Well, let's dive into, yeah, topic one. um So Waycap, which is a Saudi-based construction tech company, just closed a Series A um I think, the Saudi U.S. s and ah ah basically timed around the Saudi U S investment forum.
Speaker: Um, it is a company that, uh, those outside of the middle East may not have heard of, but has, ah got a solid presence in that, like giga project giga project being the new term for mega mega projects.
Speaker: It, uh, came on radar, A number of years ago, it purchased a Silicon Valley startup called Cruise by Core back in 2020, mid 2024. I think we talked about it on the podcast at the time.
Speaker: Um, and yeah, with this new, uh, round of investment, it's definitely not short of money. The ah company itself does, uh, workforce tracking of productivity and safety and progress.
Speaker: Um, so for me, I, uh, I kind of categorize it as almost like cost tracking and labor tracking and productivity. um It is ah player in a market that is definitely highly competitive and probably they're unique in their approach to this solving this problem of tracking of these costs through their use of ah helmet wearable sensors. So it's a kind of smart hard hat is the idea.
Speaker: So all sorts of things like ah obviously the Saudi and Middle Eastern market is very large, especially if they're targeting giga projects. but it isn't endless.
Speaker: um And you know, how viable is tracking devices in other markets where maybe labor laws might make it less ah feasible.
Speaker: So yeah, I think as a starting point, I don't know if you have thoughts on this market of of ah productivity and labor tracking and how this solution fits into the sort of mosaic.
Speaker: The tracking of labor isn't new. But the tracking of behaviors, movements and productivity is new on site. So it's it's in that horrible gray area at the moment when people feel a bit uncomfortable because they're trying to work out is it invasive? is it Is it fair game? Because if you're employing people, you want productivity at the back end.
Speaker: So it'll be interesting to see how it develops. um There's also ah ton of ways that you can do it. So it's it'll be interesting to see who wins the race on what's the best way to actually track people. Yeah. Because we're seeing helmets, we're seeing attachment to clothing, we're seeing ah cameras, we're seeing drones, all sorts. Yeah, even just an app on a phone. Exactly. Yeah. um That makes the most sense because it's no hardware.
Speaker: Yeah. Unfortunately, it's already been done, so we can't we can't steal that. Yeah. ah yeah Specifically with WeightCap, they've been doubling revenue pretty well for the last few years. um But it'll be interesting to see how much of that was like the Saudi Vision projects wave.
Speaker: but but Yeah, those those projects have a uniquely big pain point, right? Like they have tens of thousands of people on their sites coming from countries all over the world. The sites are very, very, very spread out.
Speaker: They need to track where the hell they are at any point in time. You could have 200 people hiding it. Like, you know, and it wouldn't be in two thousand yeah like it would be ah it'd be a uniquely complicated challenge. And that's why ah you could see how a company that solves some of that problem can can suddenly be tracking hundreds of thousands of people very quickly.
Speaker: Yeah. There's all sorts of interesting questions that come off of like, how does that go to market strategy change when you're when you're not dealing with projects with 40,000 people? on Yeah. So be interesting to see. Obviously, I think their raise was around geographic expansion.
Speaker: Be interesting to see how much traction they get in that space because they're leaving their mega project in the space with almost no rules. Yeah. To like super stringent. Yeah. Across Europe, US s and and a lot of Asia.
Speaker: Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if they can maintain that growth rate. To push you to like maybe some, ah see what you think. Like maybe if I frame the conversation, the way I look at this space is like construction has two things it needs to track, progress and cost, because then you're they're the basic components of like earned value.
Speaker: And I think there's a big market of technology that is attacking progress tracking. And it starts with reality capture, like open space, like build dots, et cetera, where once you capture the progress of the project, you can start to automatically identify the progress of the project.
Speaker: And that gives you, probe you know, that's a pathway you can get to progress capture. Then on the flip side, you've got cost. And the cost components are basically the plant materials. And so notoriously much harder to keep track of, I think, than the building which stands still.
Speaker: and doesn't hide in containers or sneak off site. um And so the historical way to do this would be you know like tracking sheets and ah day worksheets and you know paperwork to to track it. Yeah, term styles as well, which which works in in certain circumstances.
Speaker: And so there is a ah market of tools tackling bits of this like tracking. So maybe some focusing on plants, some focusing on labor, some focusing on bits of labor. um So these guys are in this space, you know, in the UK, things like Index. I know, you know, we've heard Procore Forum that they're pushing ah into a similar area um in places like we saw in Australia recently, one breadcrumb brought sign on site, which um is a similar thing.
Speaker: So there's lots of ah approaches and tools in the space. And then there's other tools like i think called Track Unit is an example that tracks pieces of equipment.
Speaker: um First of all, do you believe that these things become automatically tracked in the future? And then the follow up question is like, what do you think the most likely technology stack is that gets you there? um Yes, we have like I can't see a future where it's not being tracked.
Speaker: the The tracking itself gets really difficult because like not just who owns that data, but you have conflicting use of that data. You've got clients that will basically want to see, am I spending my money in the right way? like Is it defined and non-fortunate cost?
Speaker: You've got contractors that don't want the client to be necessarily seeing information ah because they're protecting their own margin, but they want to be able to track subcontractors to pull costs from them. You've got subcontractors that don't really want any of this being measured because they're going to be called out for poor performance, even if that data is available.
Speaker: And then the individuals you then yeah You can end up in a spot where people are like worried for jobs, working harder, putting themselves into potentially dangerous situations. But you can imagine other crowds going, look at my productivity rate, my CV. I want a higher rate because I can deliver more for the project. So the data gets into this weird spot.
Speaker: From the technology side, I don't think there's a standout at the moment. it makes You don't want hardware attached, really. From a cost perspective, um whichever company actually nails in that space, imagine the maintenance costs and keeping everything up to date and software changes with hardware. So that one you want to avoid.
Speaker: Mobile phone difficult because people will say, well, that's my personal mobile phone. They're not giving labor force mobile phones. That's not going to happen. So they'll just probably say no. And you'd imagine that unions would back that. that sort of stance.
Speaker: Yeah, there's lots of people trying to work on cameras where it can track people plant materials. um That's surely the most capital intensive because. but Yeah, and the coverage.
Speaker: I've had a few conversations. It's really hard to get full coverage on a site yeah without spending a lot of money on on kit. um And that kit goes out of date every three years. And the site changes. You know, a wall goes up. Suddenly all the cameras have to move.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't have a good idea in terms of where I think it should go or what the right thing is. If there's it it could be indirectly done through other apps that you do need on your phone, and then maybe that would be a way of doing it, which isn't, hey, can you download this app and so we can track what you're doing?
Speaker: But um it's a difficult one. Yeah, you could see a spot where like it's a wearable and you could see a spot where it's a um an app. And if I was to play out how either of them could progress, you could imagine on the wearable side that a wearable that enables you to do your job is the gateway to do the tracking. So like a XYZ reality headset where you know you can go in there and it tells you where to build, what to build.
Speaker: And then suddenly it's also tracking. how many hours you work, what your, you know, all that sort of stuff, safety things. So I could see a path where I think it's ah probably in a lot of markets that are have strong labor laws.
Speaker: Just a wearable for tracking probably is a tough sell. But you could have something like, um I don't know, you could have a little wristband, which has access to sight. It's how you swipe in instead of biometrics or ah card, for example.
Speaker: But how do you know it's you wearing the wristband? Yeah, you don't. Because i think that's the... How do you know it's you wearing the helmet? Well, retina scan or something, right? That's what the yeah that's what the Apple Vision Pro does. But that this touches actually on the second path I can see, which is it's an app-based thing.
Speaker: Yeah. That is where the feedback, because you have to have like a give to get, basically. So I give you benefit of you can do your job through this headset and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then as a result, I'm able to collect this data.
Speaker: That's the XYZ reality type of path. The other give to get is like, here's an app where it'll automatically track your hours, submit your timesheet. There's an automatic approval of pay, but you could have incentives for your timing into this app. You're going, I'm on site because basically,
Speaker: In order to use the phone, you have to unlock your phone biometrically knows it's you. So I can see a path where an app has built this like labor cost tracking tied to invoicing ah thing.
Speaker: Probably also gameable. You know, you've closed the app during the day and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, but I can see a path where it's like, yeah, there's a cost management, financials, automation, docketing thing that also tracks people's hours.
Speaker: And I can see a path where some piece of hardware is actually valuable to people on site that they need it to do the job. And that thing has the ability to track productivity.
Speaker: Yeah. But just carry this dongle around. Don't ask me why. pretty great Probably. It keeps you safe. yeah Yeah. How? No more questions, please. These are not the droids you're looking for.
Speaker: Yeah, it's difficult. But also using that information as well. People are probably less worried if it's, yes, it proves you're on site to pay you, but if it's detached from actual performance, because as soon as you start saying, you're not laying this many bricks per shift, that's when you get into these weird rules that we're seeing emerge in Europe at the moment. So for example, tracking when people come to the office with like working from home, you're not allowed to use that information on an individual basis because it's in ah an invasive, you're invading their privacy. But you can take the group information and not enough people are coming to the office.
Speaker: So up your game. it's kind of that aggregation. You can sort of use it generically, but not personally. But that but that's where like I could see the app path of like it's your timesheet to get paid. up like you yeah yeah were out People do anything for money.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's like we have to know your individual hours. We have to pay you accurately. You could have mechanisms with incentives tied to that then. work more hours get more pay yeah yeah i'm trying to think of something that doesn't end up being unsafe but like if it was actually tracking output if higher output individuals could get paid more yeah well that's the amazon warehouse thing it's like yeah but i think i i i don't see this tracking output because i think that's another yeah Yeah, because because to no output, you're solving both of those problems. I kind of set up this idea of tracking costs and tracking progress.
Speaker: there's a They're both very technologically complicated. i don't see the people that do the cost tracking also nailing the progress tracking. Like X, Y, Z reality is trying to, I think, trying to do both. But it's a lot. Yeah, it's very hard to do one thing. Well, it's extremely, extremely hard to do seven. Yeah.
Speaker: um So I can imagine that the reality capture people get to progress tracking faster, just simply saying who was on site, where, where were they working, what area, how often were they active? You know, like if you're tracking equipment, like there's a concept of utilization factors. So how often is it working versus idling?
Speaker: You could imagine that kind of metric being applied to people. Yeah, yeah. I remember on jobs when people would be swiping in for 16 hours a day. They take it up they take you to the toilet. That's where the app thing's good. You can start like, go goes off you've been scrolling for 15 minutes. Get up.
Speaker: no yeah're Not like tracking what you're on, but you would be literally geolocated in the toilet. You spent in your last a week. It's like screen time for for for work, you know, because it's that's what the phone's doing, that thing in the back.
Speaker: I remember on Crossrail, they i had to put turnstiles onto the canteen because people were just swiping in and having like a three hour breakfast at like yeah yeah okay six in the morning. i' like that So that I can see why it's a big issue. it would be yeah in In certain markets, no matter what you do, it's going to be very, very, very politically sensitive.
Speaker: But no, it's interesting to see how they progress. It's ah it's a very competitive space, ah but also a big problem to solve. So with big problems will come lots of people trying to solve it with with different differing approaches.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's, ah yeah, watch this space. Yeah. Moving on. ah this This discussion topic, which we we brought up the other day, i think we talked about it in a previous episode, which is and not everyone's the biggest fan of construction events.
Speaker: Unless you like branded mugs. as ah As a former engineer, the idea of pitching that I should take a day off to go and to an event, um I didn't even think I had the stomach.
Speaker: yeah or i said to do it you'll be suddenly given a lot of work if you ask to do that yeah yeah oh you actually have a shitload of free time okay there's there's obviously a whole perception thing about going to events that is uh probably it's not unique to construction but it's definitely in the category of industries where it's more frowned upon than say ah you know marketing people but who knows what marketing people do anyway all all day and those that do go and we've obviously been to a whole bunch of them find that they can there's a couple of ways they can go they can become a glorified sales pitch where a common model for these folks is to sell vendor but spaces whether it's advertisers stalls etc and a large percentage of the money comes from the vendors uh when the business model outweighs the
Speaker: goal or the the industry benefit um because there's a business behind running these events when the business model and the drive to make more money overtakes the like ultimate goal of the the getting of people together anyway um You see them sell more and more and more vendor spaces. yeah the They start selling these packages where you get speaking slots or you might host panels and suddenly everywhere in every piece of content, it's an ad and there's very little discussion of of anything that's of real use.
Speaker: So that's a big wind up, but I guess you've been to probably even more events than I, I don't know. Have you got to take on on construction events generally and then probably leading to the question of like, does anyone do it well?
Speaker: They're very much feel like Groundhog Day. Every time you go, it's the same people with the same stand doing the same pitch. And ultimately these vendors are here just to remind everyone they exist and hoping people fall into their sales funnel because they're going get a footfall.
Speaker: But it's construction is incestuous. you've got the same crowd of people with a different company each time they're looking at the same companies. Sorry, you just had made incestuous. I was not literally figuratively. Yeah, figuratively. Yeah. So it feels like it's just this rinse and repeat model of like uninspiring.
Speaker: We still exist. Here's a demo and try and get some sort of footfall and give them a pencil or a mug. So yeah it's all quite depressing.
Speaker: This is such a British intro. And it's it's also super expensive. Startups are rinsing cash at these things for probably little return. i reckon The first time we did one, I reckon we got a couple of leads and one of them like actually came through. like Yeah, you can you can easily add an entry point for people that don't know. Entry point to the depends on the size of the event, but you could easily say £5,000, £10,000 entry point and easily to £50,000.
Speaker: entry point yeah and easily go up to fifty thousand Yeah. And then the big guys spend loads of money. but Yeah. If you do headline headline, you know, it's almost like they don't have enough places to put their money. So yeah, you charge whatever you want. they do it because they can not because they necessarily sit as a high value event and they still want to have their name at the top of the list.
Speaker: They're poor. We don't do many. If we do, we try and do them slightly differently. Thinking through what we would do differently. Well, yeah, maybe not like as a vend as a vendor going.
Speaker: No, hosting. yeah Say say you were you weren't working, you and had didn't have a full-time job. yeah And you're like, I need to bring together a ah construction event that is actually good.
Speaker: Well, what would you define as actually good? And then what would you do? actually getting value and i don't mean you see another tool you get value so going to these events should have a benefit to warrant you missing a day of work so you don't even see things like if you sign up today you get a discount for the project from using this tool that you get that you wouldn't get speaking to the salesperson on a normal meeting so it's actually monetary incentivization to actually go see speak and and sign up So and that's just one example, but how do you actually incentivize attendance rather than like just rely on everyone with a stand getting their network to come and everyone else benefits from the footfall?
Speaker: that Every time you sit down and watch a presentation, it's a PowerPoint deck with bullet points like you'd have you you should publish rules and say, look, none of you could do any of these things to stop the standard.
Speaker: Here's a case study and there's six reasons why the case study was good and talking through something that's ah pretty dry. And again, the people watching are either customers or vendors wanting to work with the person speaking, not because they're getting value from the presentation itself.
Speaker: They need to up their game on the content that you're seeing. We need to actually make it worthwhile to go there. Why go there when you could just drop someone a call and probably get more time and the team and now on Teams than a being there in person?
Speaker: And ah yeah, these stands themselves. No one should ever have a table with a cloth on it and a magnetic banner behind um that isn't a startup with a a little bit of cash.
Speaker: So yeah, what what what would your event be? I would definitely like pitch me. oh It's a shitty shark tank. I would have it. I'd have a combination of like presentations or talks.
Speaker: There should be a competitive element to get in the door, not secure a spot and turn up with whatever you want on the day because that will incentivize people to actually think about ah something compelling. i would have ah I would have exhibitors, but I would try to set some sort of bar and have rules. And again, you're pitching for space, not just selling spots to the highest bidder.
Speaker: I'd probably add elements of competition into the space. Like you could be running competitions in real time. You could be doing something where the attendees are seeing how impressive these teams or apps are in real time, not just getting a sales pitch from someone that's trying to sell a subscription.
Speaker: Yep. So it should feel like this super high energy competitive landscape that you go away actually feeling like, oh, shit, we could really level up our game here rather than going in and seeing Oracle Procore, a couple of other tools that you see every year.
Speaker: And it's just the same thing. And it's people are just there for the free beer. Yeah. So I think for me, the thing that I see at these events is like uh well there's like probably three eight things that i'd look to improve first of all the idea of having this event once a year every year um where the same group of people come together they have a kind of like almost a whinge about the same problems um talk about it in this like one-to-many fashion of like a here let me tell you about all the problems you your projects have and then that happens over a day or two it's like see you next year Hopefully we've fixed some of these problems. And then like just then the whole thing is just wrapped in a big sales pitch um or advertising.
Speaker: I would start with, I would get rid of one to many presentations. I think, you know, like we do with when we bring our team together in an offsite, I would be doing pick a problem.
Speaker: do team workshops to tackle the problem, present back like tangible things. Like here's a specific problem that most projects have. Let's do little groups of whatever. Many of them, they come up with a solution to problem. They share it with other teams. They maybe present back to the group.
Speaker: So this kind of like tangible thing. um And you might even make the conference smaller, but do them on like a roadshow around a country or a region, which also means that you can get them out of Bing annually and you could do them every quarter, for example, um so that ah you give more and more people exposure. Because once you drop the vendor stuff down, you lose money because there's less sponsors. But if you increase the if you can access...
Speaker: instead of the same set of innovation managers or whatever that turn up that don't really run projects. sorry Sorry, innovation managers. But like the goal of this event should be to access the set of people that don't actually come to these events. yeah The people on the projects. You'll actually get a different. Yeah, you move around, you do them quarterly and you do them focusing like tangibly.
Speaker: The majority of the content focus on tangible problems that people can try and solve. I think that would create a totally separate, different type of event um where people are walking away with something that they can go implement or test.
Speaker: You would probably be able to increase drastically the amount of attendees. And then, you know, maybe you have fewer sponsors, but people are almost like patrons of this type of thing.
Speaker: um So fewer people, but they may be paying more money. to be the primary and know sponsor or facilitator. You they're actually making it positions them instead of like, I'm advertising to you to like, I'm giving back to the industry by sponsoring this type of thing.
Speaker: Would you go? Would you invest? Yeah. I definitely go. I'm not sure about it first. No, I think um that could work really well because it adds an educational element. No one goes away from an exhibit like actually learning something. Yeah. Uncover at all, but they don't learn how to.
Speaker: Yeah. And then like a little stress ball they get or something. ah Yeah, maybe a pen. So that would be like a high value ad, which be would be worth your time. The struggle with construction is probably getting people to go in the first place and if they haven't experienced it before. But um you're going to have that with any event.
Speaker: um And as a business model, you've actually not got this lumpy one year bit of revenue that you've got to work with. Yeah. And you could start to even sell like subscriptions to the construction companies as well, um where they could send so many people per year to the different events in different country in like regions.
Speaker: um So you suddenly, you suddenly get into like a subscription revenue. Franchise it out to each region. Maybe. don't know. That's an idea. Someone, if someone wants more tips on that event, ah contact us. We will see you at Project Controls X in November.
Speaker: Oh, the inbox is empty. All right. Final topic, because we're going to run out of time here. so the there was a conversation that we had about a ah LinkedIn post, which I'll read the the gist of as ah as a primer and then get your thoughts on.
Speaker: Yeah, maybe go straight to you on thoughts on like what's being said. So on LinkedIn, a chap wrote, my thoughts on winning in contact. context One size fits all will never happen in construction tech. The industry is too fragmented. Effectively, the market, that's me doing inverted commas, is a federation of standalone businesses, each division or project with its own P&L tech stack and decision making rituals.
Speaker: Stop chasing mass market. Instead, sub-segment ruthlessly until there is a blue ocean or a blue lake, a space where the pain is evident, the alternatives are weak, and the path to value is obvious and quick for the decision maker. It goes on, but that's the gist of it, which is...
Speaker: Start in the smallest possible in the biggest possible niche where the problem is really evident, basically sub segment down. Thoughts? Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker: um It's practical. it's ah It's a starting point that you can actually tackle and grow from. um Construction is messy. It's really hard to find a one size fits all. That niche can be carved in different ways. It could be a type of role or a type of problem yeah um that you're serving. So, yeah, it's a it's a sense sensible perspective. You don't want to carve a niche so small that the market's then too small. So it's not worth the time and you're not going to get. I think, well, let's let's push this to the extreme.
Speaker: Like, he's I think he is arguing to do that. ah He uses the terminology instead, subsanctment ruthlessly until there is a blue ocean. A blue ocean is a... it's a Yeah, no, it's like a concept of a market where there's low competition.
Speaker: But then he says blue ocean or blue lake, indicating a lake is small than an ocean, right? Let's say you take the argument to it to the limit and maybe they are argu arguing to sub-segment down to a spot where that first initial segment is not a attractively large market.
Speaker: Would you agree with that extent of it? I think it depends on the size of companies that you're actually targeting within that. Like if you think about every every tier one contractor we speak to are trying to reduce the set of apps that they have.
Speaker: And if you go too niche, then they actually do the math, going up with thousands of tools across the board to be able to do and anything well. Also, if you go that niche and it's that hopefully simple, as soon as someone establishes that spot, then you're really open for someone to come along and be the second product.
Speaker: Because, yeah, yeah I don't think he's arguing for simple problem. I think he's arguing for a hard problem. But one, because he talks about the pain is really evident. Alternatives are weak. But if you're if you're going that that niche, surely the problem won't be that big in theory.
Speaker: Like, it could be a big problem. Yeah, you could have a big a big problem that's expensive for a small number of people. Yeah, yeah. It's hard to... I guess it depends on ah like what is your goal or objective.
Speaker: Well, let's say the goal is to make a lot of money. Yeah, then you're in a difficult spot. Because unless you can charge a huge premium on it because of the scarcity of the requirement. But yeah, getting contractors to pay a lot of money for something like that we know is difficult.
Speaker: I disagree with you. i do I agree with the author. I think that starting with that sub niche is the entry point. ah it ah It gives you your beachhead. When you start working with customers, Jason Lincoln from Sasta always talks about like if you listen to your customers, they'll they'll show you the path from like whatever is one to 100 million an annual recurring.
Speaker: ah revenue so i I totally agree. I think starting with the most ah evident pain in the smallest number of people lets you try and win that a segment.
Speaker: But you have to know always that ultimately the goal of the company is to keep expanding the segments. and growing out of that niche. um It's the starting point because otherwise you start with a very broad market and you hear so many different things from your customers because they're all different to each other. Yeah, and that's too generic.
Speaker: You end up making a problem a product that suits no problem. So I totally agree. I think that's the only way forward. But it works on the basis that that ba that then can be a springboard to grow and to broaden the niche once you've solved that initial pain.
Speaker: Yeah. You can put yourself in quite badly. Yeah, i think you need to have a thesis like you know in our approach for us, there was there there is this path to, like for example, ah adjacent problems for the same customer.
Speaker: So you can you can expand the product to solve that. But I think you could have a ah different company that basically, I don't know let's say you've got a problem that, I don't know, electricians have a problem with and you really sub-segment down to it. Electricians that are single-person companies, I'm just using a hypothetical scenario.
Speaker: You might know that like plumbers, single-person plumber companies have a very similar problem. And so you expand the category in that way. But trying to do, i don't know, single person trades might be too broad as a starting point. So I would always agree, like pick the like tightest possible niche first and try to win that.
Speaker: But yeah, you've got to be really good on your timing on like when to expand and when to not. yep Because otherwise you hit these like, well... how you run out of you run ah potential customers until you can keep expanding. If you need to raise money, you're totally addressable. but yeah Yeah. If you're on the VC, if you're on the VC, hi ah yeah yeah, totally. If you're on the VC hype wheel, that train, you have to do.
Speaker: Yeah, you have to do it in a real aggressive way. they Convincing in your growth plan. Yeah, yeah totally. Because yeah you'll have to keep getting you'll keep being pushed to expand the TAM or the the addressable market, maybe even before you're ready to based on where your product is at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker: Well, plus one for no VC. Yeah, just use your own money and then you're fine. Awesome. Right. I think that's time. So thank you very much, everyone, for tuning into today's show.
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