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Episode 10 | Frank - The Long Road Back
31 Plays2 months ago
In Episode 10 of Both Sides of the Badge, I sit down with Frank—a Marine, former police officer, corrections officer, and security professional—who shares a raw and honest look at life across multiple sides of the profession.
We talk about what it’s really like working inside corrections, being on the road, and operating alone in the security world. Frank breaks down the mindset it takes to deal with people at their worst, how situations escalate, and why communication and humility matter more than most realize.
This conversation goes deeper than the job.
Frank opens up about his struggle with alcohol, what led him there, and what it took to turn things around. He shares his perspective on recovery, accountability, and why too many in law enforcement carry the weight of the job in silence.
This episode is about perspective—not agreement.
It’s about understanding the realities behind the badge, the stress that comes with it, and the importance of finding a way to deal with it before it deals with you.
If you’re in law enforcement, corrections, security, or connected to the profession in any way, this is one worth listening to.
🎧 Listen here: https://beacons.ai/bothsidesofthebadge
Have a story or know someone who should be on the show? Reach out through the link above.
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to both sides of the badge. Every badge has a front. What's talked about, what's photographed, what's argued over, and then there's the other side. The part that most people never see and rarely ask about.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's easier to judge it than to understand it. This podcast is about that side. The work, the judgment calls, the moments that don't make the news, but shape everyone involved.
00:00:28
Speaker
This is both sides of the badge.
00:00:33
Speaker
rollland There we go. i am here with Frank Frank. Thanks for showing up today. i know we've we've been talking over the last couple of weeks try to get this to happen and just one thing or another has kind of kind of popped up.
00:00:47
Speaker
um Thanks for reaching out on the podcast. the book of faces, the Facebook, you know, that's how we, that's how we kind of hooked up and talked a little bit. So that was interesting. It sounds like you've got quite, um, quite a story for everybody. Um, yeah. So Frank, go ahead, introduce yourself, you know, sell yourself, let everybody know who you are.
00:01:10
Speaker
Well, my name is Frank. I'm a 59 years old. I live down here in Northeast Texas. I'm really originally from Louisiana. I'm very proud of that.
00:01:21
Speaker
ah In my life, I've been fortunate enough to earn the title of Marine, Police Officer, Sheriff's Deputy, Corrections Officer, and Security Officer.
00:01:32
Speaker
I take the job very seriously. I don't have a set career that I've done for many years, but I've and been involved in the law enforcement community back all the way to 1999. Wow. When I first got into security, and that was out in Hawaii. Wow.
00:01:50
Speaker
believe it or not. ah And ah I enjoyed that a lot. ah I got to be a ah supervisor for that company.
00:02:01
Speaker
ah And my job was to drive around Oahu all night and check on other posts. And it was a lot of fun. It really was. And night shift's always fun. I mean, shoot, the first like five years of my career was almost straight nights.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that happens, and and you get used to it. yeah in And to this day, I mean, my mom my schedule, my, I guess, circadian rhythm is really, I really shine after 1 o'clock in the afternoon, 1300. That's when I really am my best and everything. so But I love getting up being a morning person.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yep. Two. So yeah i've I've seen and done a lot. I'm not anybody's hero. I'm not an authority on anything other than myself.
00:02:57
Speaker
ah I try to be humble. you know Good. I think we' yeah we miss a lot of folks being humble these days. A lot of people are out to just toot their own horn and get what they can get. So that's appreciated.
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah. And that's... You know, accountability and responsibility are really things that have gotten lost in the mix these days. And when I was in the Corrections Academy, you know, they covered a stat down here. It said 90% of staff assaults are caused by the staff.
00:03:33
Speaker
And I've seen that to be true. 100% true. What do you mean caused by the staff? like ja will ah Staff will escalate things because they are easily offended.
00:03:47
Speaker
And one thing I've learned is being offended is a personal choice. you When you're offended, you are given credibility to someone else's opinion.
00:03:59
Speaker
Yep. you you can't You can't be offended by facts. You can only be offended by opinion. And that only happens if you give that opinion some validity. And so I've i've had inmates say all kinds of things to me.
00:04:14
Speaker
I don't care. Oh, you're losing respect. No, I'm not. i This is my philosophy. Okay. My philosophy is I can only respect myself. I can't respect you.
00:04:25
Speaker
I can treat you respectfully, yeah but i can't I can't give you your own respect. Yeah. i can only How I treat you is a reflection of how I feel about myself.
00:04:39
Speaker
So if I have low self-esteem, yeah, I'm going treat you like crap so I can drag you down and be on top of you. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. No, that definitely makes sense.
00:04:50
Speaker
oh you know And i've i' I've been hands-on. I've been in assault situations where I've had to take inmates down plenty of times.
00:05:01
Speaker
But it wasn't anything caused, I don't think. It was you know them escalating things, trying to trying to get what they want. that's That's the prevailing thing about inmates. They want self-gain, personal gain.
00:05:20
Speaker
You know, and it's
00:05:25
Speaker
it's hard to make this, well, I say new generation, it's it's it it's hard to make people understand that. launch Once you understand inmates are only out for their own gain, ah and and I'll give you a good example of it. There was ah a there was a murder.
00:05:43
Speaker
I don't remember where it was, but ah ah ah an inmate beat to death. a guy that was in prison for molesting a child.
00:05:55
Speaker
Okay?
00:05:58
Speaker
And a lot of the people or a lot of comments were good for him, justice served, you know, stuff like that. And I'm trying to make them understand this had nothing to do with justice. This guy didn't have a sudden inspiration to do something right. No.
00:06:16
Speaker
He killed that inmate because that inmate was a high-value target. and He did it to gain standing in his in his ah cell, in his area, whatever they have. We had pods where I worked. you know he did He killed that guy to gain standing so that people would go, ooh, he's a tough guy.
00:06:37
Speaker
No, he didn't care who that guy was. Matter of fact, when he was out, he he probably sold drugs to kids. Yeah, yeah. And i but I will tell you this, Garrett, from firsthand knowledge, you would be flat amazed how many guys locked up somewhere in their past, they have something involving a juvenile.
00:07:03
Speaker
They took advantage of them They sold them drugs. They touched them the wrong way. They did something with a child. Yeah. No, actually, i think there's some some some studies out there um I think i i I don't want to name any studies because I couldn't if I even tried. oh right.
00:07:20
Speaker
But going through strangulation training and stuff like that and some of the DV training, you hear about that. and And they talk about past of a lot of the offenders, um you know what they've probably gone through. and you know So, yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense.
00:07:35
Speaker
Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. ah And it's... What I saw in the unit I worked on, it was a state jail, but we still did dealt with TDC inmates.
00:07:47
Speaker
We were transfer unit. you know they They came to us, did a couple of years, and then went on to the what we call a grown-up jail.
00:07:57
Speaker
and ah What I saw in the pods were if a guy came in and he had a charge with a child, they would tell him, you need to leave.
00:08:10
Speaker
They'd come tell us as officers, you need to get this guy out of here. He's going to get hurt. So, ah what in in my... but i And it's not it wasn't a max. We were a medium.
00:08:25
Speaker
We weren't a max. But a lot of them, the inmates kind of policed themselves. you know they They know bad guys when they see them. ah But...
00:08:37
Speaker
if if we got ah If we got a child predator in there, usually they would come to us and tell us, you get him out of here. We don't want him. we're we're We're trying to help you to keep from having to write the report on why this guy died.
00:08:51
Speaker
when When you're talking about like a bad guy and the stuff you're talking about, are you talking about like severe child abuse or are you just talking about like a sexual predator? or Sexual predator.
00:09:03
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. It's, I mean, with child abuse,
00:09:10
Speaker
you know, I tried to, I was telling my four-year-old the other night, well, my mama whooped me. She whooped me until her arm got tired. Yeah. You know, I give my kids, you know, if if you stay here, got to give you a lick.
00:09:25
Speaker
One lick. If you let me do it, if I have to do it, if I have to make you, you're going to get three. you know, and that's that's how I am now. And I don't like spanking my kids. I hate it.
00:09:36
Speaker
kind hate it, too. I feel bad. I've got a 21 and 18-year-old now, and i tell and you know every time I had to spank to them, we would sit down and talk about it. and And I hated doing it.
00:09:47
Speaker
Absolutely hated it because I don't want to cause my child pain. But, you know, ah I grew up in a generation where, like I said, mama whooped me. She'd go pick your own switch off the crabapple tree, and if I don't like it, woa and behold. Yeah.
00:10:02
Speaker
You know? ye So it was coming. So that's the generation I grew up in. So child abuse is, i mean, there are clear-cut circumstances.
00:10:15
Speaker
well You're starving a child. You're keeping the child tied up. You know, you're i mean, I read one ah article the other day about they made the child...
00:10:32
Speaker
I hate to even say it, and and I really don't want to because it was so disgusting. But it was they were making her eat stuff she shouldn't be eating. you know so And the child eight.
00:10:44
Speaker
yeah you know at At eight years old, they don't understand. they All they know is what's being done to them. They don't understand why, really.
00:10:56
Speaker
They just know. It becomes like that's what's supposed to happen because they don't know any different. Right, right. And...
00:11:07
Speaker
I don't know. I hate to go any deeper into that because it just gets so dark so quick. but Oh, yeah, it can. Definitely. But i to me, the bad guys in prison...
00:11:21
Speaker
are the child molesters, the open child molesters that get busted and have egregious charges against them. You know, sexual relations with the someone below the age of 13. That's unacceptable.
00:11:35
Speaker
And inmates find it unacceptable. Now, one thing i have found to be true in every single case, you always hear about inmates hate snitches. every inmate's a snitch.
00:11:47
Speaker
Every single one of them. They will sell their mother for a pack of noodles. Yeah, if it's going to benefit them in some way. Oh, yeah. As long as they can get something out of it. that That's what they're after.
00:11:58
Speaker
And as far as stealing, oh, God, they steal from each other all the time. it You know, it's ah it
00:12:07
Speaker
it's it's just I hated the culture of it. Because i and I had a hand in some them and I'm very proud of that. I've seen guys turn their lives around.
00:12:24
Speaker
You know, rough oh yeah I personally know a guy. He got convicted twice of misconduct with a child.
00:12:34
Speaker
You know, I don't know what all it entailed, but one of one of his victims was his daughter. he He did total of 10 years. He did seven and three on two different convictions.
00:12:46
Speaker
Both girls were under five years old. okay He got out in 2010. Since then, he's rebuilt his life. He's changed.
00:12:57
Speaker
good he He has rebuilt the relationship with his daughter. She even lets her kids spend the night at his house. good. I mean, he's come that far. I've worked with him. He's a great worker. Do I trust him? Not at all.
00:13:12
Speaker
I don't trust anything he says because he's lied to me. But I'm just saying, no one is above rehabilitation. No.
00:13:24
Speaker
I mean, that's the purpose, right? Anybody can be rehabilitated. You know, ah I talked to a guy at the treatment facility I worked at.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I asked him, you know and um and I would do this to some guys, and I said, you going to do when you get out? This guy told me, ah this is up here in East Texas. He said, I'm moving to Houston.
00:13:48
Speaker
Really? Why are you going down there? He said, because I don't know anybody.
00:13:54
Speaker
Really? He said, yeah, I don't know anybody because the people I know got me in trouble in the first place. well I go hang around them. I'm going to end up right back in here. I'm going to Houston because I don't know anybody. I'll find a job.
00:14:08
Speaker
I'll work and I'll build my life back. Yeah. And we talked about that when we talked, um, what, like last week, I think it was. And yeah. And I mean, you you have to do that. You, you can't go back to where you're comfortable because you're just going to fall back into what you were doing before. You got to get rid of all, all of that.
00:14:23
Speaker
Exactly. So it's a good thing. I mean, I've encouraged that often to a lot of people. like, dude, when you get out, get the fuck out of here. I don't care where you go, and I don't mean it in a bad way, but if you want to change truly, get the hell out.
00:14:37
Speaker
o Well, you know, I see yeah people in the addiction group so much going to halfway houses and everything. I've never been to one, so I can't say yay or nay about it. But what I have seen in the people that I know have been to halfway houses or...
00:14:54
Speaker
ah ah into in-house programs is their chances are 50-50. You know, they're either going to make it as or not.
00:15:06
Speaker
And it really doesn't matter what the program is. It's their own drive. okay You know, i I had something very traumatic happen to me.
00:15:17
Speaker
And it it was simply one moment I was pouring a drink. The next moment I was pouring it out and I was done. you know Because i had I had prayed, and I don't mind saying, I've been to AA, I've found my higher power, and I call him God.
00:15:34
Speaker
And he simply removed the desire to be drunk. In an instant, he did it. And that's that was that's how I worked. yeah you know And I knew i didn't really have to fight for it, but I knew it was going to come back.
00:15:49
Speaker
And it did. you know ah I've been in recovery for five years. I'm not a saint. um i don't I have blemishes on my record, but it doesn't control me anymore.
00:16:04
Speaker
I don't allow it to because I'm learning how to live sober. And that's that's what the program is about, the AA program, the 12th Step. teaches you how to live a sober life.
00:16:15
Speaker
doesn't help you quit. it It teaches you how to live sober. And that's a big misnomer a lot of people get. They're like, oh, yeah, I do better on my own and all this stuff. Yeah, maybe you do. Okay. Congratulations.
00:16:29
Speaker
But most people need help. You know, they need to see that that ah that shining figure that they can shoot for.
00:16:42
Speaker
You know, i've got right now I've got two sponsors. One of them is 44 years sober. The other one just passed 14. Wow. You know, so it i see I get so many people asking me, well, how do you do it? How do you stay sober? You don't.
00:17:00
Speaker
Today. People ask me, how many days you got sober? One. Today. That's all that matters. One day at a time. It's the one that matters. None of the other days matter anymore. They're gone. I can't change any of that.
00:17:12
Speaker
Now, if I tell some people, yeah, I've been in recovery five years, you know, that has some credibility to it But me, I'm going focus forward.
00:17:23
Speaker
Where am I going? What am I going to do? What will alcohol prevent me from doing when I go there? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, congrats on five years. It is that does have some credibility to it because it's ah it's a big thing. I mean, you were you know stuck on something that that is very difficult for people to a lot of people to to give up. so and But I mean, I like your outlook of today, one day at a time, and just keep moving forward.
00:17:50
Speaker
Exactly. And that's what I found is that it's a great pattern for life. Just today. That's all you got to do. It's just today. You know, i ah I started drinking early, probably 12 years old.
00:18:03
Speaker
And through high school, you know, it was the same. Everybody drank. I never thought saw it as a problem. Until I got older and started having kids. And ah I went to one of my sponsors one time and I asked him, I said, am I really an alcoholic? Because I really haven't been drinking that intensely for that long. He said, let me ask you something.
00:18:24
Speaker
He said, did you cry try to quit on your own? I said, yeah. He said, did you? No. That's why I'm here. He said, did someone you love ask you to quit?
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah. He said, could you? No, I couldn't. He said, you're an alcoholic. That simple. Yeah. they're Simple. If you could not quit when someone who really mattered to you asked you to, you're an alcoholic.
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah. You know, so, and ah and I bring this up because, and this is where I want to go with my life coaching area. I want to work with law enforcement.
00:19:05
Speaker
I know the stress. I'm not i'm not i'm not a 30-year cop, but I've been involved in the industry for years. I know the stress. I know what it's like to have to decompress in your car for 15, 20 minutes after you get home, just so you don't bring it in the house with you. And we we talked about this. I keep my wife from everything.
00:19:28
Speaker
oh i I didn't know this. I just found this out. 18 security officers have died in the line of duty this year. 18. Wow. according to Public Security International, which is a U.S. group that that kind of oversees security. Eighteen have died in the line of duty.
00:19:44
Speaker
I don't tell them like that. felonious assaults or? All kinds of things. Shots fired, just getting involved. And in and a lot of them have been hospitalized. And this is a problem that I have ah
00:20:01
Speaker
because one of the places I'm looking at going is a hospital. there the local departments will bring these people in having psychotic episodes and simply drop them off.
00:20:14
Speaker
They won't alert anybody. They might let the ER staff know, hey, he's been a problem. He's kind of crazy. Security doesn't ever find out until ER is calling us saying, hey, this guy's tearing up stuff.
00:20:26
Speaker
And we have to show up with this guy in psychosis, not in touch with reality at all. And I can tell you, of down here, the security classes I've been to are a joke.
00:20:41
Speaker
They don't train you how to deal with this kind of stuff. yeah they Like hands-on and de-escalation and all that stuff? the last The last security class I went to, we didn't even talk about handcuffing.
00:20:54
Speaker
Wow. And I was like, we did a week on that when I went to the police academy in 2001. We did a week on mechanics of arrest. Mm-hmm. You know, ah when I went to the Corrections Academy, and this is another thing, ah we learned, when when I went to the Police Academy, we learned the use of force continual.
00:21:14
Speaker
The first step in that is physical presence. The second step of that is remaining calm.
00:21:25
Speaker
ah saw This is why I brought that up about the 90% of staff assaults being caused by staff, because these people show up and they escalate things. Every time, it seems like, they escalate things because you're not going to talk to me like that.
00:21:42
Speaker
What do I care how you talk to me? yeah okay Say what you got to say to me. I've been on too many calls when I was working as a police officer and a sheriff's deputy. I've been on too many calls where, you know, the supervisor's there, and he he just lets whoever go.
00:21:58
Speaker
Scream, holler, get it out of your system. And once they slow down, okay, now let's talk. What's going on? What's going on Oh, my girl, I found some guy's number in her phone.
00:22:09
Speaker
Oh, what she said they're telling you she's trying to buy you something off of Facebook Marketplace. That's the number she's got. You know, it's simple as that. Yep.
00:22:21
Speaker
And ah all you had to do was calm down. Well, you know, i've been drinking and doing a little today and everything. Okay, there's a problem right there. And that's what I mentioned in those comments sent you yesterday.
00:22:33
Speaker
That muddies the waters pretty good when you start getting intoxicants involved. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, most all of our crimes, it seems like, are committed with something like that, you know, drugs, alcohol, whatever, on board. Yeah.
00:22:49
Speaker
And in the same way in prison, most of these guys, they get locked up, and at first, they're very calm because you're removing the alcohol and the drug. Now, when they get a little deeper, they start picking up K2 and hooch and all this nonsense and getting silly.
00:23:06
Speaker
Deal with that on a case-by-case basis. But by and large, you take away the drugs and alcohol, and they're not bad people. Yeah. no I like that.
00:23:17
Speaker
Well, we went forward a little bit. Let's go backwards a smidge. Tell me you. How'd you grow up? Where'd you grow up? What was Louisiana like? What's Texas like? i've been to Louisiana only once, though. I grew up and in ah ah in central Louisiana. They call it Sin Law.
00:23:32
Speaker
It's ah Alexandria. It's right in the middle of the state. And I used to, well, still do, say we were 30 minutes north of Kunas and 30 minutes south of Rednecks. You know, because it's we were the demarcation line right there. Yeah. We didn't have the Kunas accent. We didn't really have the southern twang, really. We were just kind of in between. But it was such an eclectic collection of people, you know.
00:24:00
Speaker
Yeah. it was uh you know looking back when i was there it was god this place is so boring can't wait to get out hey i played guitar i was gonna be a rock star and you know all that nonsense that that was gonna be me play college football be a rock star man i had my whole life set out yep you know but you know things happen and uh
00:24:25
Speaker
I joined the Marine Corps, did some time out in California, got out, lived in Houston for a while, ah ended up moving back to Louisiana to go to Louisiana Tech, ah which ah was some of the best years of my life because ah the job I had working through college was working at what they called the Biomed Dorm.
00:24:53
Speaker
And what it was, it was a dorm for physically handicapped students.
00:24:59
Speaker
And I made some of the best friends of my life who were in wheelchairs. As a matter of fact, one of my friends, David Thomas,
00:25:11
Speaker
ah well, he got his degree from tech.
00:25:17
Speaker
He built his own water ski apparatus, so he still water skis and now has a volunteer group that helps others do the same. That's pretty cool. He works for NASA. Oh, wow.
00:25:28
Speaker
He works at the Stennis Space Center right there in Mississippi. he's He's down from Bogalusa, which is southeast Louisiana, right there next to Mississippi. and And he is just, I always, ah I call him Sergeant Major because at 13, he knew he was going to be a Marine.
00:25:47
Speaker
He's going a career Marine. That's all he wanted to do. 13 years old. And then he fell off a tire swing, broke his neck, and ended up in a chair. You know, so ah I did that. And like I said, it was some of the best years of my life because I had it helping people do that.
00:26:06
Speaker
And it wasn't just, you know, me doing things for them. It was helping them do things for themselves. Because every every person in a wheelchair wants to be independent. Yeah, they do.
00:26:19
Speaker
I have not met a person in a wheelchair that wanted everything handed to them. But that's just my experience. I also got to work ah for a private company there.
00:26:33
Speaker
And I ran a cleaning crew of retarded people. And, you know, that's what we call them. That's what they call themselves. And that that was so enlightening.
00:26:47
Speaker
Because what what they had, they had such a simple mindset. You have a job to do. Let me go do it. And they were happy to do that job. They didn't care what it was.
00:27:00
Speaker
You know, they they were mopping floors. And they loved mopping floors. You know, wiping down walls. They loved wiping down walls. They were such good people. it just they They were deficient in certain areas.
00:27:13
Speaker
You know, okay. Yeah. telling none of them None of them ever got offended by me calling them a retard. Hey, you're retarded. Yeah, I am. It was simple as that. and i I wasn't malicious about it. well Simply stating what their illness was.
00:27:31
Speaker
You know, but they were such good people. oh yeah. And I enjoyed that. So that's really, that was in the ninety s early to mid-90s, that's really where service took the lead in my life.
00:27:49
Speaker
I was doing that right there. Because, again, they don't want things done for them. They want to do things for themselves. My job was to help them, show them a way to do it by themselves.
00:28:04
Speaker
yeah That's pretty cool. And that was your first job in high or in college, right? Sir? That was your first job in college? In college, yes. Okay. Yes, in college. That was my job in college.
00:28:17
Speaker
And ah ah they've since closed the dorm down, which I hate because it was it it wasn't about money. It was about money.
00:28:30
Speaker
It was about personal independence. Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
We had a kid that came to live with us. I can't even remember his name. He was 18 when he got there. And he had ah he'd played football.
00:28:48
Speaker
And he went down to tackle an all-state running back one night and hit him right in the thigh. And it just twisted his neck the wrong way. oof He was paralyzed from neck down.
00:29:01
Speaker
But his outlook was so refreshing because he his his the the attitude was, this is not the end of my life.
00:29:13
Speaker
This is just a new beginning. And I have to learn to deal with this. And so when you're working with people like that, with that kind of mindset, it's so
00:29:26
Speaker
ah so enjoyable. Yeah. you know Kind of refreshing seeing somebody with a ah more positive outlook. Like, yeah, almost the worst thing that could happen to me has already happened, so now exactly let's just go about having fun.
00:29:44
Speaker
I was going to tell you, David, my friend in the wheelchair, he's classified as a quadriplegic because he has limited use of his hands. He doesn't have any real fine motor skills. ah He can work a keyboard, but he can't sit there and type.
00:29:57
Speaker
ah He's got a son. He's been married, has a son. He drives his own car. Cool. that's That's what these people are after. ah ah they they they just They just want to be normal.
00:30:12
Speaker
Look past the wheelchair. And that's that was really what I learned. ah Yeah, I get to know me, not my disability. Exactly. exactly yeah That's exactly it. And I think that translates well into law enforcement.
00:30:27
Speaker
Because, like I told you the other day, Rex White, the guy that ran us to the academy in 2001 at University of Houston downtown. Yes, I'm giving a big shout out to UHD. They had a great police academy. They really did.
00:30:43
Speaker
And I'm sure it's still great, even though Rex isn't there anymore. He passed away a few years ago, and I'm sad to hear that. Yeah, that's bummer. He told us ah the first day of of the academy, he said,
00:30:55
Speaker
Nearly every call you go to is going to be the worst day of those people's lives. And they're looking to you to make it right because you are the first line of government they're going to see. Yeah. You know, and it it that, you know, you realize you have to realize that when you get there, every call you go to, these people are distraught.
00:31:16
Speaker
The worst has happened to them. Most you most likely. You know, what what what do we do about this? How does everything get back to normal? Okay, I'm the one with the badge.
00:31:29
Speaker
So let's let's everybody slow down and and take a deep breath and say, let's look at let's look at the situation here. You know, and and sometimes there's a little, there's a few hurdles to get over to get to that point.
00:31:44
Speaker
Then I think a lot of people outside of of you know some of those professions like cops and firefighters, you know all those people that deal with it the worst day of somebody's life, don't think of it that way. like youre there's not many opportunities that that we have in law enforcement where you get to to have some fun.
00:32:04
Speaker
You know, you're usually showing up, like you said, it's that person's probably their worst day or close to, and they need some help, somebody to point them in the right direction um so they can get through it.
00:32:17
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Of course, you're going to have people that are arrogant and, you know, think they're above everything, but, you know, that's part of the job. You have to deal with those people, too.
00:32:29
Speaker
And what I have found, because you you run into a lot with inmates, you know, we're locked up. We know. we we We know the way it goes.
00:32:40
Speaker
yeah And i'll work for a private a prison company. And ah
00:32:52
Speaker
i have i have a strict moral compass. Right and wrong. You know, i follow my heart. What's right, what's wrong.
00:33:01
Speaker
And i ran into a lot of problems with that. Not from inmates, necessarily, but from other staff. Because so many of them learned to look the other way.
00:33:13
Speaker
oh
00:33:17
Speaker
Either that or they were over the top. Oh, there's there's a group of three of them meeting and back there. We better tear the the dorm apart and find out what they're talking about.
00:33:30
Speaker
ah You know, the real one didn't need for that. but we I know this guy isn't connected to the whole pod. Let's talk to him. Pull him out and talk to him. Now, when you say over overlook, what are you what are you talking about there?
00:33:51
Speaker
but I'll tell you about one incident specifically. And it was about, let's see, we came on shift at 06, usually got on the floor itself probably by 630.
00:34:06
Speaker
we and they And we had counselors and everything. They came in about 8. About 10 o'clock, we had a nonresponsive inmate, she a female. She passed out.
00:34:19
Speaker
So we called an ICS, which Incident Command System. We need help. we need It's emergency. you know She went down. ah About three minutes later, we had another one in the same pod.
00:34:31
Speaker
Went down. What's going on here? you know was it Are they sick? What's going on? Okay, then it started spreading to other pods. oh We're having three, four, five, six inmates. are And when I say go down, they're seizing up, going into seizures.
00:34:48
Speaker
Okay. And at three, I'm thinking something's in the pod. It doesn't need to be. Somebody brought something in. You know, but the.
00:35:04
Speaker
It's kind of a coincidence. Three is something something's going down. Yeah, I knew something was up. But so many of the other people, ah the coworkers, and even the command staff were like, just deal with the situation at hand, get past it.
00:35:20
Speaker
You know, deal with it, send them the hospital. Deal with it, send them hospital. You know, whereas... And I don't want to sound like I'm um um'm super cop or anything, but I knew something was in the pods that needed to come out.
00:35:35
Speaker
hu But they're not listening to me because that meant... shutting down 10 pods and doing right doing ah ah in in what they call throwing it, tearing everything up, looking for, because obviously something got into the prison that was harming these girls.
00:35:54
Speaker
yeah And it you know could have been, it was probably K2, could have been fentanyl. Because ah um I did searches for people coming in. Everybody got search coming in, and I was thorough.
00:36:09
Speaker
no wasn't They're not bringing anything in You can't have this. Take it back. Oh, well, I'm a sergeant. I can have that. No, doesn't work like that. Right. you You're a sergeant. You should know better. You can't bring credit cards.
00:36:21
Speaker
You can't be bring a little baggie that I don't know what's in it. No, you can't bring it. Take it back out. You know, but other I've worked with other officers who were not as thorough.
00:36:32
Speaker
Okay? I don't expect everybody to live to my standard. But you run the risk of stuff getting in and these girls getting hurt or these guys getting hurt. You know, and aside from the legal ramifications,
00:36:47
Speaker
ah these, and and I've noticed this working in corrections, inmates tend to regress mentally. So if they get locked up when they're, let's say they they get a sentence when they're 25, you come back and check on them in two years. They're not 27. They're 18.
00:37:10
Speaker
Man, why is that? The culture where they're around, because
00:37:19
Speaker
remember high school? Yeah. How much did your reputation count for in high school? Yeah. now It counted for a lot. you were You were involved in drama. It meant something to you.
00:37:31
Speaker
Same thing in prison, except it's in turbo. Wow. Because your your life depends how people view you. And that's what I was saying about the guy that killed the pedophile.
00:37:44
Speaker
he didn't he didn't He didn't do it for any sense of justice. He did it so that other inmates would look at him and be in awe. Wow. Because he's going to take that influence that he gained from killing that guy, and he's going to turn right around and exploit a weaker inmate.
00:38:02
Speaker
He gets the choice of who his sexual partner is going to be that night, who's bringing drugs in, and he gets to say who has it. He gets a whose extra tray he gets.
00:38:15
Speaker
yeah you know there's There's a plethora of things that are involved in that that he gained from killing that guy. and that's That's the only reason he did it, was to gain personal gain.
00:38:28
Speaker
Right. stow And it's inmates, when when you're when when you're a when the drama counts for that much, you tend to start regressing.
00:38:43
Speaker
And ah because I remember in early years of high school, we had special handshakes and and so forth. It makes the same thing. You know, you know who who is affiliated with which gang by the way they shake hands.
00:38:59
Speaker
Right. Or the signs they throw to each other. So um what's it what's it like in the day of the life of a correctional officer? You said you worked at a private prison, but they're they're all kind of ran very similar.
00:39:14
Speaker
It's a honestly, Garrett, it is what you make of it. Me? ah No inmate ever saw me sit down. They didn't see me leaning against of anything or saw my shirt tail onook untucked. that was That was my sense of professionalism. I carried myself in such a way that they would look at me and say, you know what, I want to be like that okay that. There is something possible that I can do.
00:39:46
Speaker
And and yeah It can be boring if you let it. I didn't let it. I stayed in motion constantly.
00:39:59
Speaker
You know, did I ever take ah a couple of minutes to go sit down in the, we had a bathroom office kind of combo thing. Did it I ever take a few minutes to go sit down? Yeah, I'll go sit down for two or three minutes, but then I'm back up and I'm watching.
00:40:14
Speaker
You know, I made my pass-throughs every 30 minutes. You you've got to go through the pod every 30 minutes, and that keeps you busy. ah You have a lot of day day shift, you have a lot of movement. but Chow, school, ah seeing counselors, you you have a lot of movement, mass movements there.
00:40:38
Speaker
And, of course, you've got to do counts. You've got six of them every 24 hours. And we do most of them, or a couple of them during the day, but most of them at night when there's not supposed to be any movement.
00:40:51
Speaker
ah Night shift, to me, it was more difficult because you really have to stay on your toes. That's when rape happens. That's when drug use happens.
00:41:03
Speaker
That's when exploitation happens. Yeah. Is it night? And ah one of the things I picked up on when I was working day shift is you start seeing these things get set up.
00:41:18
Speaker
during the day shift, you know, one inmate going over and kind of stroking the other one's arm, hey, what got going on tonight, you know, ah doesn't matter really what you say, I'm taking you just tonight.
00:41:31
Speaker
You know, so it's, you kind of pick up on those things. It's, it's, it I consider corrections law enforcement, but it's a different branch because we are enforcing laws, but we're more, we're heavier on the rules.
00:41:47
Speaker
okay Yeah. You know, so. ah Well, that's the purpose. Law enforcement is is bigger than just the boots on the ground that you see. and i've said that I've said that a few times in all of these episodes.
00:42:04
Speaker
that's that's There's corrections. There's Department Human Services. There's prosecutors. There's defense attorneys. You know, everybody. Nurses, doctors. Everybody's affected in in some way, shape, or form.
00:42:18
Speaker
by criminal justice and the law enforcement community. So, I mean, everybody plays a part in it. Nobody really truly realizes how big that really is. Yeah. And I think where the problems come in in, today's society is political leaders have belittled that, huh you know, uh, uh,
00:42:43
Speaker
especially with ICE, Immigration Customs Enforcement. They do a job. They do a very important job. ah I mean, all and law enforcement is important, but they have become a dirty word.
00:42:59
Speaker
People don't want to talk about them because they're going out and, you know, you have these liberal sheriffs and police chiefs saying, well, no no decent cop puts a mask over their face.
00:43:12
Speaker
Well, that's not even true. these a lot of these guys are undercover or have been. They don't want their faces everywhere they don't because that threatens their family.
00:43:25
Speaker
I mean, it's common sense. I saw the Philadelphia sheriff saying, you know, though you shouldn't have covering on your face. But then she turns around and does a dance video for recruiting.
00:43:38
Speaker
make me Make that make sense to me. yeah you know and and I don't like when law enforcement starts taking shots at each other. it's It's got to be a unified front.
00:43:53
Speaker
And I ran into it when I was a reserve. you know Full-time guys saying, oh, you're just a reserve. Brother, I'm out there taking the same bullets you're looking at but I'm doing it for free.
00:44:08
Speaker
Yeah. It doesn't make me any better or worse than you. makes me the same. I'm coming out here on my time, risking not going home to my family to do the same thing you're doing.
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah. And just so you know we let everybody know like what a reserve it that reserve is, I'm not sure a lot of people might know, but there's a lot of... i'm Probably most in any agency. I mean, there's some liability to it, but they bring on volunteers to help you cover shifts and and and manage things. And they're like like here in the state of Colorado, you still have to be, like you were saying, certified exactly the same. You're just not getting paid. I mean, same training, same everything.
00:44:49
Speaker
Right, and not not every state's like that. Now, when I worked in Louisiana, they simply did a ah review board. You sat down with the entire command staff of the sheriff's department, and they interviewed you.
00:45:01
Speaker
You know, they did a background and everything, but there was no special training at that time. Now it's different. But Texas, for years, you've had to go be certified with, when I did it, was T-Close, now it's T-Cole.
00:45:14
Speaker
You still have to be certified. Now, I think the problem comes from maybe the old days when guys would bring their when sheriffs would bring their buddies on Here, here's a badge. Go do it.
00:45:32
Speaker
You know, and, you know, they get pulled over in traffic stops. Oh, I'm a sheriff's deputy, too. That that gives us a bad name. Yeah. yeah Never once have I pulled my badge out in a traffic stop.
00:45:46
Speaker
Never once. Full-time, reserved, doesn't matter. up of ah but One of my FTOs, when I started it in law enforcement, he said, if you ever get pulled over as private citizen, put your hands on the steering wheel and don't move.
00:45:59
Speaker
So that's what I do. I got pulled over about a month ago. Put my hands on the steering wheel didn't move. I was in my security uniform. i was armed. I put my hands steering wheel. soon as the deputy walked up and was in voice range, I said, I am armed.
00:46:14
Speaker
but i didn't I didn't say, hey, i'm I'm this guy. I'm special or anything. No, I'm armed. Just be aware. I'm not making any move towards my weapon. How'd that contact go after you did that?
00:46:25
Speaker
It's safety. It's common safety. Was he appreciative? he or she, I guess. It was he. It was a guy. Yeah. I mean, me, when I've had that happen, I was always appreciative. Like, oh, cool. I mean, I got one, too. I mean, at least we both know now. So let's just you keep yours where yours is. I'll keep mine where it is and pulled you over for, you know, driving like a jackass. Can I get your driver's license, registration, insurance?
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And and that was ah i i I don't try and weasel my way out of ticket. If you pulled me over, I would do something wrong. OK. I'm mad enough that I'm going to take the punishment.
00:46:59
Speaker
Yeah. yeah or i so But there are those out there that will that try and use the badge to their advantage. They try and leverage it for benefit. And don't agree with that. don't agree with it full-time. I don't agree with it reserved.
00:47:16
Speaker
It's not right. And I think now working in the security field, that's a big problem between law enforcement and security.
00:47:28
Speaker
Because as we are seeing in this day and age, being a security is just as dangerous, if not more so, than having a real badge and working the streets. Because I can tell you firsthand, those inmates get locked up.
00:47:43
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It took 10 or 12 officers take me down. Two SWAT teams. I just didn't see the point resistance anymore, so they took me in. You know, they tell all kinds of stories. yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
Well, what's the big difference between, so that everybody knows that might not know, i mean, between being just a regular security guard and being a certified officer?
00:48:11
Speaker
First of all, and this is here in Texas, We can make arrests. We can detain for a felony committed in our view.
00:48:24
Speaker
We can. That's not mean we have to. right Too many guys decide that you they they had a guy here in Longview last Halloween, ended up shooting a guy for shoplifting. They got in a fight. you know He was trying to catch him, so he didn't run away.
00:48:43
Speaker
ah Ultimately, security office's job is observe and report. Right. But if if I'm doing the job right, I'm out there by myself.
00:48:55
Speaker
I don't have any backup. I don't have any way to contact backup. oh you know I'm lucky if I can get my phone to call 911. And still, that's that's a 30-second process just to get somebody on the line.
00:49:07
Speaker
oh So I'm out there by myself, my own wits, just like the old days of the cops. ah training for security is comical at best.
00:49:21
Speaker
They're just turning people out so they can fill a post. ah You know, security officers are not trained to deal with situations. They're not trained to de-escalate.
00:49:33
Speaker
They don't know how. They're Some of them, I'm to say all or even many, but some of them like to poke their chest out and say, hey, I got a badge.
00:49:45
Speaker
You know, umm um you have to listen to me. But ah yeah that's like I said, some, not all. But what i was saying about the inmates, we're we become targets. Right.
00:50:00
Speaker
Inmate, bad guy, they don't care who we work for. All they see is a uniform and a badge. If they can take me down, by the time they get into prison big boy prison proper, oh yeah, they they they shot a cop. It was hands-on, and I took his gun away and shot him.
00:50:18
Speaker
You know, is all kinds of stories. That's all they care about. Again, it's it's their their persona in prison. right People think of them that they can intimidate people.
00:50:31
Speaker
You know, so,
00:50:34
Speaker
ah again, it's what you make of it. I don't, die i've I've had so many people, oh, he's the police. No, no, no, no, no. no no na I correct people immediately on that. No, I am not the police. It says right here, security.
00:50:50
Speaker
yep I'm the be quiet guy. Just be quiet. That's all I want. You know, if if if somebody commits a felony like a robbery, Okay, I will give the police a great description when they get here.
00:51:04
Speaker
I'm not chasing him down. It's not my job. I can make an arrest. It doesn't mean I have to. Now, if this bad guy's beating up somebody, oh, yeah, yeah, then I step in.
00:51:15
Speaker
If he's got a gun, yes, I will pull mine, and and if I have to, I will use it. But ahm I'm not the police. well You know, when you when you take that oath to the state of Texas, when somebody commits a felony or a crime and your president's in view, you have to make an arrest.
00:51:33
Speaker
I think the wording is you shall, you know, which was emphasized to us in the academy. You shall. ma ah Shall is a big word. No, and and I like that.
00:51:48
Speaker
Even while security isn't, say, a certified law enforcement officer, they're going to see a lot of the same stuff. They're going to work a lot of the same hours. They're going to deal with a lot of the same bullshit. And like you said, though, it's a observe and report. And that's a very big deal because ultimately something that – A lot of people don't put themselves in positions throughout their regular life to know what they're going to do in a scenario or what it's going to look like or what it's going to be like. But as you're doing security, you're going become a little bit more aware of that and a little less and a little more desensitized to it. So you can pay attention and you can be descriptive, which will help law enforcement catch a guy, get the right information they need to prosecute a person, all of it. So it's a big deal. Exactly.
00:52:33
Speaker
Now, ah the last place I was working, one of the places I did mostly was the Section 8 housing. That's the project. Now, I had officers come through. You know, i made friends with a couple of guys, and I got personal numbers.
00:52:52
Speaker
I did not call them with, hey, this person was driving too fast in the complex. No, that's something I can handle. Now, if I see heavy in-and-out traffic in one apartment, likely it's narcotics.
00:53:05
Speaker
Yes, I will let them know, hey, ah matter of fact, I went so far as to say, here, give my number to your narcotics unit. If they need eyes on over here at night, I'll be happy to pass along whatever information I can. But I'm not going out there looking for it. <unk>s That's not my security job. So make sure everybody's safe and quiet.
00:53:27
Speaker
you know So you ask me the big difference between security and law enforcement, I will say one word, alone.
00:53:38
Speaker
Yeah. I'm out there alone. Again, ahve I've had to do it. Call 911. It's 20, 30 seconds before I get somebody on the line.
00:53:50
Speaker
Well, let's fast forward real quick because you you did work the road for a while. um You said reserve and full-time, right? Yes. Were you in ah and like a rural area or was it a more populated area?
00:54:03
Speaker
ah The sheriff's office I worked for was probably the best one. ah It was a a town of about...
00:54:16
Speaker
18,000, maybe 20,000. But ah there was a major university, Louisiana Tech University. I worked for Lincoln Parish Sheriff's Office as a reserve. Great department.
00:54:27
Speaker
ah I worked for a sheriff called Mike Stone. He was wonderful. He knew each and every deputy under him. awesome ah Since it has moved over to a sheriff named Stephen Williams, who has been with the department as long as I can remember.
00:54:44
Speaker
He's been forever. And he's I never worked directly for him, but what I'm hearing is he's doing a great job. Awesome. you'll Okay. Uh,
00:54:57
Speaker
It was a mostly rural. You know, you had Ruston right there, Louisiana Tech, and Grambling, right in the same parish. But other than that, it was mostly farm area.
00:55:11
Speaker
you know and ah ah i get And I bring that up simply because you say alone. And and you know I think there's um you you were talking earlier about people that are you know cops and whatnot, um ah correctional officers, stuff like that, that can really ramp things up.
00:55:29
Speaker
But when you're working alone, especially if you're, like you said, like you are, um a security officer, but even if you're working out in the rural area, you don't tend to You don't tend to smart off to people. you you tend to learn to try to figure out how to talk to people and listen and de-escalate because it's just you.
00:55:48
Speaker
And that's why I say humility is so important.
00:55:55
Speaker
Call me whatever you want. I don't care. I'm still going to treat you the same way. ah I think we talked about this when we had our phone call. When I was in the police academy,
00:56:07
Speaker
a Rex taught us. He said, when you initiate a traffic stop, you know whether you're going to write a ticket before you even get out of your unit. You already know. So, and I took that to heart.
00:56:19
Speaker
Yeah. So if I ever had to make a traffic stop, I didn't care how people talk to me. Call me whatever you want. Act up. Act a nut. But you're going to you're gonna get a ticket or you're going to get a warning.
00:56:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It's as simple as I'd already decided before I even got out of the car. So you want to be a jerk and call me a you know just a no-good, dirty, low-down dog?
00:56:43
Speaker
Sure, go ahead. That's fine. yeah It's just your opinion. yeah Just your opinion. Does not make it fact. I'm out here doing the best I can. that's And it's that's all I can do.
00:56:53
Speaker
You bring that up, and I subscribe to this to the same theory when I was working the road. like I had my mind made up before i ah basically I hit the lights, really. And there was one time...
00:57:05
Speaker
And there's only one time I can think of where somebody almost got me. I went up there. i was going to give him a warning for speeding. And then I saw him and him and I have not, had we didn't have a good past and he just went off and I'm like, you know what?
00:57:18
Speaker
Fuck you. I'm giving you a ticket. I got back to the car. I got back to the car. I sat there and I'm holding my ticket book with the ticket in it. I'm just staring at it. I'm like, I can't let him bring me down like that.
00:57:30
Speaker
So no matter what, even though I went back up to the window and he was still motherfucking me, I went, here's your warning. I didn't need you to slow down. yeah i couldn't I couldn't let him do that to me. That's that's my integrity. that's my That's me. And see, that to me is what makes a great cop.
00:57:45
Speaker
You saw you were letting the suspect control the situation. You got your head straight and you said, you know what? I didn't do right. Or you you felt you didn't write do right personally, so you corrected it.
00:58:00
Speaker
yeah That is a big step. That is a big step. You know, ah the biggest problem I had when I was in corrections, I announced to a pod, it was 54 guys, that we were going to chow because they had called me on the radio to say, get ready for chow.
00:58:19
Speaker
Send me a group. I sent them a group. I had misheard on the radio. And i've I've talked to other old head corrections officers that don't ever apologize to an inmate.
00:58:30
Speaker
i I don't ascribe to that. but yeah I made a mistake. and i you know they were they They almost rioted. They came bustling out, you know charged the door on me, and I had to get help to get them all back in there.
00:58:45
Speaker
But afterwards, they were all riled up. They were mad at me. And I walked in there by myself. It was 54 to 1. And I knew they were angry. But I walked in there, and I got them to be quiet. I said, I made a mistake. i apologize. apologize.
00:59:01
Speaker
Now, whatever you want to say to me, you go right ahead. And they they hit me with all kinds of stuff. But after that, they settled down. Okay, cool. We're done. You can get a lot of respect by just talking to people, you know, like they're human. And, um you know, just being honest.
00:59:17
Speaker
I mean, that's what that is. get That gives you respect. It gives you, even as ah as a correctional officer, a law enforcement officer, anything, if you're just... Be straightforward. you know Now you've built some credibility. you built You started building that relationship. Because, I mean, there's always that that push and shove, like you know trying to put two magnets together. But you can try to bring that closer if if you're just open and honest. And, yeah. One thing i've and I've learned, and I learned it mostly a lot in corrections. I had to re-emphasize corrections.
00:59:48
Speaker
Don't lie to an inmate. I've got to reason to lie to him. You know, anything he gets from me is going to be a benefit. So I have no reason to lie. Right. Because if I and I've had situations where I've told an inmate something You know, this, you know, here here's what I'm saying, and it turned out to not be true. I'll go back and find an inmate.
01:00:12
Speaker
I apologize. I thought this, this is what happened. it was It was wrong. I'm not necessarily wrong, but the situation didn't come out to your benefit.
01:00:23
Speaker
I apologize for my part in it. Simple as that. Yeah. Shoot even even out working the road. you know what like You're trying to go pick somebody up on a warrant or just get figure out where somebody's at.
01:00:37
Speaker
I mean, I can't say I didn't when I first started. you don't know It's a tactic that you can use to try to get what you might un need. But at the same time, I learned real quick that You know, it it was better. out there ah There was one guy.
01:00:49
Speaker
we ended up building this weird relationship. It was a professional, but he was always getting in trouble. He ended up with a warrant, and they're like, I can't get him to come in I called the guy, and I'm like, hey, Matt, you got a warrant.
01:01:03
Speaker
I need you to come down to the police department right now. Turn yourself in. We'll get you right the hell out of here. If not, i'm going i have to come knock on your door. i know where to find you. And he's like, okay. All right, Duncan, I'll be down there in, you know, five minutes. And boom, just being straightforward. So i go, you know, like, hey, come see me. I don't I won't arrest you. You know, it it happens. It's got its uses for sure.
01:01:24
Speaker
Yeah. That's all it is. People appreciate honesty. oh but And, you know, I've got nothing to lie about. I'm a big boy. I can take the consequences of what I did wrong.
01:01:35
Speaker
um i know I don't have anything to lie about. So, you know, like I said, if if somebody says, you said this, and I simply don't remember it and say, no, I didn't, well, that's on me. You know, I apologize. I simply don't remember saying that.
01:01:50
Speaker
But am I going to specifically set out and say, I'm not going to tell the truth with this? No. That's not me. That's not who I am. well You know, i'm I'm going to tell you the facts the best I can.
01:02:05
Speaker
That's me. That, to me, ah is law enforcement. To me, law enforcement are the leaders of society. We are the head. We are the lead dog.
01:02:18
Speaker
We have to be. we They say, ah you know, we're not any better than the regular people, but that's not true. We have to be. We have to set the standard. To me, that's what I see law enforcement as.
01:02:33
Speaker
we' are we are the We're the front of the front of the line, the vanguard. know we if If we start lying, what's everybody else going to do? If we fall apart, what's everybody else going to do? you know They're talking about defunding the police.
01:02:49
Speaker
That's going to be a hard lesson to learn. When you have people you know who have no experience going out there trying to de-escalate situations with violent people, many people are going to get hurt.
01:03:02
Speaker
Right. You know, and ah hate that these officer-involved shootings happened, but they're justified. I had an old cop tell me one time, he said, there's no such thing as shooting an unarmed suspect.
01:03:17
Speaker
He's armed until you can clearly... to define that he's unarmed. So if that what that meant was if he pulls out anything and points it at you, you have to assume it is a gun.
01:03:33
Speaker
ahh And you have to shoot him. I mean, but... Sometimes it's hard to tell what it is. you know look at you Look at the way they make these BB guns and and some of these even toy guns nowadays. They like have the real weight. you know It's easy to pop off the the orange tip, and it looks just like something I would – if you pointed at me, I'd shoot you.
01:03:53
Speaker
Right. Well, I saw one the other day. guy got A guy was killed, and an officer was holding up the – it was a water gun that he had. in In one of the pictures, I had to read the article to find out that was a water gun.
01:04:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Honestly, I thought it was an Yeah. Yeah. No, there's a water gun, but a lot of people, a lot of people misunderstand or just don't know. You know, we, we, we think that there's enough time to do everything you need to because, you know, hindsight, right. You know, but I was involved in an officer involved shooting in, in 2010. We were from the time we called on scene to the time that the shooting happened.
01:04:37
Speaker
It was like 30 seconds. you know And if if somebody's pulling anything that looks like a gun or a weapon or anything like that, you have seconds if you're lucky. Not even that.
01:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. It's instantaneous. and And here's the problem. for i was I was talking about in that piece I sent you yesterday. You react in the moment. hu you don't you don't have the benefit to stop and it's think about what's going to happen to you as ah civilly or criminally if you shoot this guy. You're defending.
01:05:16
Speaker
You're trying to get home to your family. Go home to your family. that's And it's not just me. It's the bad guy, too. That's the message I want to give them. Let's all go home.
01:05:27
Speaker
Yeah. let's Look, look yeah tomorrow, things are going to look completely different. Okay. Let's just settle down and go home. It's just, I am of the belief, if ah ah as a police officer or even a security officer, if I am on trial and the jury is not made up of security and law enforcement professionals, they're not my peers.
01:05:54
Speaker
They don't know. They don't understand. You know, that prosecutor is going to do everything he can to put me in jail. He's going to ask questions so he can put pieces of the story in there to make a picture that he wants to make himself look good. and That's not true.
01:06:11
Speaker
You know, as a sheriff, when I was a sheriff's deputy, I had to sit on a on a on a trial. And, you know, of course, and Rex told us this in the Academy, if you're a cop and you get picked for jury duty, you're going to be the foreman.
01:06:26
Speaker
Once they find out you're a happened? I was a foreman. Well, and...
01:06:37
Speaker
i the What it was was a cyberbullying case against a detective. Wow. And... yeah I mean, it ended up, the guy on trial ended up losing his SHIT in court and screaming at the detective. It's silly.
01:06:57
Speaker
But honestly, to me, the whole time i was sitting here thinking, grow up. Tell the guy to shut up. yeah Because this was all about some emails the guy had sent calling the con the detective fat, stupid, ugly. went, come on, get over it.
01:07:17
Speaker
There was no reason to go to trial, you know, from what I saw.
01:07:24
Speaker
but it but And that's the other thing about law enforcement. We have to be bigger than that. When I say we're the leaders, we have to be bigger.
01:07:35
Speaker
We have to take the blows. Talk to me bad. Go ahead. Let me settle things down. Once you've had your say, now let's talk about it. You know, that's, yeah I think that's the that's that's it for me.
01:07:52
Speaker
that make sense? No, that makes a ton of sense. really does. appreciate it. Back from a little break. Sometimes when you sit here, you got to, well, as you said, you know, take some medicine and ah use the restroom, get a drink.
01:08:07
Speaker
I get it. Yeah. Well, let's circle back um to you being a Marine. We haven't touched on that. What got you into doing that? how'd you end up?
01:08:20
Speaker
Did what? How did you end up getting into that? My father was a Marine. Oh, awesome. ah He served... ah That I know about, he served on Iwo Jima, and he served on Okinawa
01:08:36
Speaker
during the war. ah I'm um' in the process of trying to get his SRB, his service record book, because I want to see what all he did.
01:08:47
Speaker
oh Because he left home in 1942 and came home in 1945. He was gone the entire time. There was no tours or anything like that. he went and he he He went, he conquered, he came home.
01:09:05
Speaker
Just like all the Marines did back then. ah But, you know, I was i was ah learned to idolize him.
01:09:16
Speaker
He died...
01:09:19
Speaker
The year I was born, he died in August. I was born in November. So I never got to know him, never got to meet him, nothing. So he was an he was a godlike image to me.
01:09:33
Speaker
i'm sure everybody had some good stories to go along with them, too. Oh, sure. Kind of a bummer way to to grow up, but hey, as long you got some good stories. Well, that was, honestly, that that was a major source of the trauma throughout my life was one one thing I learned very early, the dead don't make mistakes.
01:09:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm. You know, so... But, ah yeah, I wanted to I knew i needed something. Like I said, I worked in a music store. was a guitar player in bands, had long hair. i was a hippie. I was crazy. i Never got no drugs. that I had an older brother who was in drugs, and I grew up with that, and it was a it was it was not a good upbringing.
01:10:23
Speaker
ah So I stayed away from drugs because I didn't want to be like that.
01:10:29
Speaker
But ah
01:10:33
Speaker
I still didn't keep me from being an idiot. You that's just a natural ability I've got. just At some point. Yeah, my mother died when I was 21, 22, something like that. She had cancer.
01:10:51
Speaker
And she she passed away. And I kind of existed for a few years before I realized something had to change. I was going nowhere. i was flunking out of college.
01:11:05
Speaker
ah At the time, I was at LSU in Alexandria. oh So i something needed to give.
01:11:17
Speaker
And so, ah you know, I taught the military, and there was only one choice. it was the Marine Corps. That's all going to do. I had no desire to do anything else, even though England Air Force Base was right there in town. You know, we got to see the Air Force up close and personal.
01:11:35
Speaker
But ah Marines was all I wanted to do.
01:11:39
Speaker
So I did that, and... it was It was one of those situations when I was in it, I hated it, but when I got out of it, I missed it.
01:11:54
Speaker
You know, that happened a lot with a lot of things. Well, I was i was no honor marine or anything, but I got to boot camp, I earned the title.
01:12:09
Speaker
Unfortunately, i broke my foot not long after boot camp. And at that time, the Marine Corps was drawn down by 85,000 Marines after the first Gulf War.
01:12:22
Speaker
So they were sending people home for anything. If you've ever had office hours simply a fussing at by your CO, you were going home. So ah the day after I broke my foot, I went to medical, and the doctor, the first thing he said to me was, I hope you enjoyed your time in the Marine Corps because you're going home.
01:12:43
Speaker
Bummer. Yeah. it was It was really, I had very little say in it. Yeah. You know, I did not quite a year. But one thing I've really, you know, and that's that's weighed on me a lot because I felt like a failed or I felt like I quit on myself somehow that I didn't because I wanted to be a career. I wanted to be a career Marine.
01:13:10
Speaker
Sergeant Major Marine Corps and all that stuff. Well, did that ultimately set you on the path of getting into, you know, law enforcement and corrections and everything you've done? Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. Sure. You get used to the high speed, low drag stuff. You know, being a Marine, you know, you have days where you don't do anything, but most of it's go, don't go, go, go.
01:13:30
Speaker
Yeah. And I probably straightened your shit up so you you weren't, you know, getting as much trouble. I will tell you this. The lessons I learned in boot camp have taken years to sit in, but they finally have. Yeah.
01:13:44
Speaker
So
01:13:48
Speaker
I carry myself a certain way now. ah Even as a security officer, when I'm on duty, if there are people around, I'm on my feet. oh And a I don't slouch.
01:14:01
Speaker
I keep my hair cut. ah Beards are not for me. they're not They're just not my thing. Mine's probably freaking me out a little. know. I know. I know. Well, lost it all up here. It just kind of migrated. But I like it.
01:14:20
Speaker
goes they with i play away I stay away from that argument because i ah I feel like law enforcement is not a place for beards simply because of the gas masks. You know, there's still a possibility you're going to wear and so but But I won't get into that.
01:14:35
Speaker
Some guys wear beards. That's up to them. That's their department. They let them. Okay, fine. I'll move on. But beards are not for me. So I keep myself clean shaven. I try and stay physically fit. I've been lackadaisical lately.
01:14:50
Speaker
But ah
01:14:54
Speaker
i
01:14:58
Speaker
I saw this show called Budge Class 234 years ago. it was about a budge becoming seals. And one of the things they said in there was luck is the residue of preparation and design.
01:15:13
Speaker
And that struck me. Luck is not random. Luck is how you how you maintain yourself.
01:15:26
Speaker
And how you plan your work. Mm-hmm. You know, if you can if you can maintain yourself, like now, like as I work out, you know, i like I said, I've been lackadaisical, but I'll work out. I've got a heavy bag. I train. I don't just go running. I run sprints. Mm-hmm. What if I'm putting handcuffs on somebody and they turn and run? Mm-hmm.
01:15:50
Speaker
You know, I've got to go at least 50 yards at full speed to get them, try and get them down. With a lot of extra weight on it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think about these things now.
01:16:02
Speaker
And, again, it's it's personal choice, but I hate seeing out-of-shape cops, out-of-shape corrections. I can't stand that.
01:16:15
Speaker
and Because you're putting your life at risk. Mm-hmm. You know, i'm ah
01:16:24
Speaker
i I see cops sometimes now, and I think there's no way that guy's going get me in handcuffs. Not at all.
01:16:36
Speaker
There's a better chance to his weapon away. And and you don it's not something I'm trying to do. I just look at him and say, he's not in shape. He's probably going to have a heart attack if he has to go hands-on with somebody. Mm-hmm.
01:16:49
Speaker
there's documented out there where where you know people assaulted cops, and and they ask them why, and it's like, well, because they let me. Yeah. I saw one video of a cop deploying his taser on some guy, and the guy simply, in in in a muscle reflex, swept the taser out of his body and charged the cop. The cop turned around and ran. Mm-hmm.
01:17:11
Speaker
Yeah. Screaming, bah! I mean, it's all it's all a mindset, being being healthy, staying in shape. um I mean, some round can be a shape, but um you know it's a mindset. it's It's what you bring to the table when you're showing up on a scene where you know she can hit the fan and you could be judged by the other person at the other end on, is this guy going to let me kick my kick his ass or do I need to just kind of – that's what it is, yeah.
01:17:40
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. And I do this with ah mentors and people in addiction groups. yeah And it they talk about, you know, the the yeah ah symptoms of side effects of stopping. I tell them, get out and go for a walk, even. Physically.
01:18:03
Speaker
Physically. It increases your metabolism. It helps you dump all the toxins from your body quicker. And it gives you a fresher, it gives you your mind it gets it that dopamine level set again naturally because that's what you're using the intoxicants for drugs, alcohol. It doesn't matter. You're boosting that dopamine artificially.
01:18:26
Speaker
well If you exercise, it does it naturally. It helps you get that straight again faster. And I get so many people Oh, I had surgery, and I got chips, and I'm going to, okay, that's fine.
01:18:42
Speaker
Don't tell me I'm not interested in your excuses. You can make excuses all day. Tell me the one reason you can. And I told one girl, she was like, I'm just, it it hits me out of the blue. I said, you know what, drop down and do 10 push-ups. Well, I can't. Don't tell me why you can't do 10 push-ups.
01:18:58
Speaker
tell um Tell me the one reason you can. Mm-hmm. you're You're in the middle work, and you get an urge to start drinking, drop down and do 10 push-ups. Do one. Hell, just do one.
01:19:10
Speaker
Yeah. You know, something to make yourself feel in control of yourself. Mm-hmm. that that's one is What would you share with somebody that could be you know listening to the show right now um that might be you know going through some sort of addiction?
01:19:29
Speaker
but what you've You've gone through the steps and everything. what what What could you share that maybe might hit home with somebody if they're right there on that fence of, I need to knock this shit off or so badge that's just happen to me?
01:19:44
Speaker
One thing. One thing.
01:19:49
Speaker
It can be two things. It can be five things. But something really, you know, might hit home.
01:19:56
Speaker
Mostly it is why. Tell me why you drink. Tell me why you use. Okay. If you can't answer that, then look to the big book.
01:20:09
Speaker
There's no chapter on why. It's just how. How can you get better? So it's it's kind of a, I guess, a double-edged sword. let me Let me know what that trauma is that's making you drink. Okay, that's important. Yes.
01:20:24
Speaker
But how are you going to stay sober? debt I think that is the key. That's what one of my sponsors taught me. He threw down the big book and he said, show me the chapter that says why.
01:20:36
Speaker
There's not one. It says how. And the 12 steps, what I've learned from me, you admit you have a problem and that you don't control it. Something is controlling you.
01:20:49
Speaker
You find your higher power. you know And and i don't i don't i'm I'm very spiritual. I trust God 100%, but I don't push it on anybody. You find your own.
01:21:01
Speaker
Everybody's got their own. Because one thing, you know i grew up 12 years a Catholic school being taught religion one way. And what I've found is what they told me was not true. God is not all things to all people.
01:21:15
Speaker
He's everything to each of us. oh He's individual. My God is different from your God. My God cusses. He would slap me around if he has to.
01:21:27
Speaker
Because he is told he told me in one situation that I had problem preacher. He says, his relationship with me is not any your effing business. You do you.
01:21:38
Speaker
Pay attention what you're doing. That's all you need to worry about. You don't worry about how he talks to me. You know, so that that is what got through to me. That's what my God has to do to get through to me.
01:21:52
Speaker
So what the 12 steps are, ah ultimately, you know, you go through steps four through seven, I think, are about self-healing.
01:22:03
Speaker
well And then 7 through 9 or 7 through 10, I believe, I can't remember the right off the top my head, they're about making amends, apologizing for what you've done.
01:22:17
Speaker
But steps 11 and 12 are the epitome of the 12 steps. how do it's it's It is exact directions on how you live sober. And that is by helping others who are in exact same position that you used to be.
01:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, bringing it back full circle. And the reason I'm... Like I said, I want to go into life coaching, kind of a counseling consultant.
01:22:48
Speaker
Counseling deals with trauma from the past is what I've learned. coaching Life coaching is where you're going in the future. wellh because And I can tell you from my own experience, I don't know where i'm going.
01:23:03
Speaker
But when I put service into that, helping others, that gives me a direction. that tells me I'm doing the right thing.
01:23:15
Speaker
It's not, you know, it's it and I don't need a million dollars. I don't need a big badass truck. I just want to help. That's what law enforcement has become to me.
01:23:26
Speaker
oh Like we said, it's be the worst day of their life. Help me. That's why I'm here. Yeah. Let's talk about that.
01:23:38
Speaker
You're at your law enforcement service when you're working in the road. What kind of what how was it working in Louisiana? What kind of things did you did you do You know, explain explain parts of that.
01:23:50
Speaker
oh
01:23:53
Speaker
I didn't get real deep into like narcotics or they had the scat unit who were looking for drug traffickers coming to the parents. Yeah.
01:24:07
Speaker
we did a lot of traffic control as reserves, uh, college football games, uh, which seems kind of blase, but are you familiar with Grambling State University?
01:24:21
Speaker
With, I'm sorry. Grambling State University? No, I don't think of that one. Yeah, it's one of those historically black ah colleges and universities.
01:24:32
Speaker
And i don't I don't mean to tag anybody, but they get rambunctious at homecoming. They get rambunctious. I think a lot of places get ramp but rambunctious during homecoming. but When you've got a bunch of white officers standing around telling bunch of black folks what to do, you become unpopular real quick.
01:24:56
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah and what we what I mostly did, ah the way the the town was set up, you had to cross the main thoroughfare through campus to get from parking to the stadium.
01:25:10
Speaker
So it was imperative that we control traffic because people get run over. Very easily. Kids get run over my cars. So we had to maintain strict control of traffic.
01:25:24
Speaker
And like i said, traffic control seems blase. But when you see a child hit by a car going 10 miles an hour, it's not pretty. No, no, definitely not. It's not pretty. There's a lot of blood.
01:25:37
Speaker
lot of blood and a lot of crap. So we did a lot of that. ah I got to, you know, we were free to check out vehicles whenever we wanted.
01:25:47
Speaker
And I-20 ran right through the middle of town, so we got to run. I did not specifically initiate traffic stops. I have. I've done it before.
01:25:58
Speaker
But that was not our job. Mostly we answered assistance calls with full-time deputies. Mm-hmm. That's mostly what we did. So i would if I was on ah in a unit by myself, I would roll up behind somebody who'd already initiated the stop.
01:26:15
Speaker
And ah
01:26:18
Speaker
I'm a big believer, and maybe maybe it's just me or whatever, but I don't think, personally, any cop should run a traffic stop by themselves if they have backup.
01:26:29
Speaker
well i I'm a big believer in... Okay, you know, somebody calls out, you know, 22 calls out they're making a traffic stop at this area. Hey, let me go over there.
01:26:43
Speaker
He's not calling for backup, but let me be there just in case. Right. Because you know how things how quickly things can pop off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they they can go from zero to 100 real quick.
01:26:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Certainly. So that's mostly what I did. you know, if somebody made a traffic stop, okay, where are they? Let me start heading in that direction. I wouldn't run code or anything, but I'd i'd get there as quickly as I could.
01:27:09
Speaker
And I enjoyed that. that's that was That's what I liked to do. You know, because now... You know, 22 is on a stop. He's got two people in the vehicle. And ah can we agree profiling is part of the job?
01:27:31
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know if you'd actually call it profiling. I think it's the the the term is more pretext. Yeah. Well, I mean, you see people and and race has no part in it.
01:27:44
Speaker
Right. Gender has no part in it. Political party has no part in it. You just kind of get the sense they're going to be a problem. So, you know I'd roll up behind somebody. He's got two girls in the car. Okay, let's get them out because she's kind of talking fast. The driver is.
01:28:02
Speaker
Let me talk to the passenger. I'll pull the passenger aside and talk to her. What's your story? Where are y'all going? Where are you coming from? Why are you going here? Okay, then I'll, me and the regular deputy walk back to the car. We'll match stories. Okay, this doesn't match up.
01:28:17
Speaker
Right. Okay, but let's dig a little deeper now. yeah let's Let's see what's really going on. Then stories start changing. you know So I enjoyed that because...
01:28:32
Speaker
It had, there was a, there was a good gap between being a police officer and being a sheriff's deputy, even a reserve. There was there was a good gap in there. So my street skills had lagged a bit, and quite a bit, actually, you know, so I enjoyed being the support, but I guess.
01:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. I really, and I really relished that role. Uh, We would get... oh Girlfriend calling in. My boyfriend just left and he hit me and he's driving drunk. So...
01:29:06
Speaker
Here, he's on this road, so let me get behind him and see if he backs up or anything. But, you know, he doesn't give me any probable cause, so I can't pull him over. He made it home safe. Good luck, buddy.
01:29:19
Speaker
You know, is he drunk? Probably. Did he hit his girlfriend? Who knows? I don't know. I can't pull him over to ask him because I don't have any reason to. Right. Because any any any time I pull him over, if he didn't break any traffic laws, whatever he says is fruit of the rotten tree.
01:29:36
Speaker
Don't matter. It's tossed. you know so But I enjoyed that. And I looked at it more as you know in a situation like that, I was simply following him home. He knew I was behind him. He could see my light bar, even though it wasn't on. He knew who I was.
01:29:53
Speaker
But he acted straight. He drove the speed limit. He stayed in the lines. He got home safely. There you go. I did my job. Yeah. you know Didn't I enjoyed that.
01:30:06
Speaker
And I just in in this day and age, we're having staffing issues. Mm hmm. You know, and and
01:30:19
Speaker
it's it's hard to do that anymore. Yeah.
01:30:25
Speaker
I live in a town where they don't have staffing issues, fortunately. ah But there are down here in Texas, constables are a big thing.
01:30:37
Speaker
ah you yeah I'm sure you'll have constables up there, right? um I think our version would probably be more of ah like a marshal. But yeah, explain what a constable is.
01:30:49
Speaker
Constable, okay, you have your county down here, and the sheriff is in charge of the county. he can actually call out the National Guard if he needs to, believe it or not. But the sheriff is in charge of the county.
01:31:03
Speaker
he is the He's the number one. okay The county is broken up into ah judicial districts, justice of the peace. Each justice of the peace has a constable who is a lawfully sworn police officer.
01:31:16
Speaker
Down here in Texas, They have real police departments that are constables' offices. And you'll hear people from all over the country say, he's a constable, he doesn't what he's doing, and he just walked into the job. wouldn No, constables have to go through all the T-Cole training.
01:31:34
Speaker
They are lawful police officers. oh Now, they do other things, process service, eviction, stuff like that, that normal police or sheriff don't do.
01:31:45
Speaker
But they are still lawful police officers. And They're at-will employees, so you have people that have some trepidation about going to work for them because, you know, you you get people that are – excuse me, you you can get constables that are a bit arrogant. I won't deny that. They're just like sheriffs or chiefs or anything.
01:32:10
Speaker
that will fire people just because they they don't like who they associate with. You know, it happens. But constables down here or lawful police officers, uh,
01:32:25
Speaker
And i ah there's one in the in the county next to us who's very transparent. His name is Josh Shoplin. He does Precinct 3 of Smith County.
01:32:38
Speaker
That's his area. And he's very transparent. He puts everything on Facebook. Right. he didn't He doesn't list every traffic stop or anything. But when he has budget issues and he knows he's being screwed over by the county, he's front about it.
01:32:54
Speaker
This is what I'm asking for. You know, our our patrol units are 15 years old. We need new ones. And they're not giving us the money because they're diverting it to some kind of other program that we don't need to be paying for. And I don't want to get into anything about immigration or anything like that, but they're diverting it to areas that are not necessarily critical.
01:33:18
Speaker
oh They're harming his ability to do his job because, you know, sheriffs by and large are rural areas. They, you don't, unless you've got,
01:33:32
Speaker
You know, 100% staffing, most of the deputies that run their traffic are going to be out there by themselves. Right. Yeah. Constables help. Constables help.
01:33:42
Speaker
They help a lot. ah They just had a trial for one ah in a county not far from here long ago. He pitted a motorcycle guy and ended up dying.
01:33:57
Speaker
Well, he eventually was acquitted, but the big thing was he was not a real cop. He was a constable deputy. huh oh So are they deputies or constables deputies or or like regular? get No, they're deputies. They're deputies. they They have a badge. They are sworn to take hold to the state. They have full arrest powers, everything, just like a city police officer. It's just who they work for.
01:34:27
Speaker
Gotcha. That's all it is. ah And believe it or not, down here in Texas, everybody's got capability to have a law enforcement agency, school districts. Yeah. water districts, the gas company.
01:34:40
Speaker
I mean, it's crazy how many law enforcement agencies they can have out here. Wow. But, uh, yeah, Josh is a, ah what I've seen, I haven't met him personally, but he seems to be a good guy.
01:34:53
Speaker
He is, he is all about the people. And I think that's what's important. Uh, With a man in his position.
01:35:06
Speaker
ah I don't know if you saw the article. ah I don't. Who was it? It was. er Was it rural badge posted the article about something in Alabama? A deputy decided he was going to run against the sheriff. Yeah. Sheriff fired him.
01:35:24
Speaker
okay So he was looking for people's input on that. And i realized when I was going through there, think about, if you take your blinders off for a second, think about what the position of sheriff looks like.
01:35:42
Speaker
Most people think it's the old West six-gun slinger. Right. That's generally what people think of a sheriff. That tends to inflate people's ego a bit.
01:35:54
Speaker
I've known some sheriffs, some like full sheriffs. They tend to be an arrogant crowd. I'm not saying they're all like that, or not even most, but some of them can be, because they have that connotation of almost like Yosemite Sam. Big mustache, big hat, big gun. you know i'm the I'm the boss. you know and it Power corrupts.
01:36:20
Speaker
It can. yeah ah But Josh, oh over in Smith County, he's so down to earth.
01:36:32
Speaker
ah And that's why um he's the guy, i want I told you I want to go back to the academy, even at my age. I want to work for him. because Because he's so down to earth.
01:36:44
Speaker
oh Because he is, it's, it's The way i and I read it is he's not about just arresting people taking them to jail because you've got three other calls holding.
01:36:59
Speaker
No, let's sit here and figure this problem out. but Let's get everybody home safe tonight, and then we'll move on, you know, right depending on what's what's holding. You know, so I like that.
01:37:11
Speaker
ah That's what I look for in ah in a boss, I guess, a chief, constable, sheriff, whatever. That's what I look for. How in touch is he with the people?
01:37:21
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know part of the service. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't have the people to do it, but ah I want to go volunteer for him just to do um welfare checks.
01:37:33
Speaker
Yeah. Just check in with with the old people, you know? Yeah. 80 years old, hey I just want to come check in on you, see how you're doing. Mm-hmm. need and that and that and You know, this goes back to when I worked with the handicapped kids in the biomedical dorms.
01:37:51
Speaker
You know, some of get to be shut-ins. Just want to check in on you, see if you need anything, can I help you? can Want me to fix you dinner or something? Hey, I'll do it. I don't mind. And I guess it's kind of a...
01:38:09
Speaker
It's kind of a mindset of I'm not above you. i i I'm helping. That does not make me superior to you. Does that make sense?
01:38:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and ah And I think that to me, that's quintessential law enforcement. I'm not above you, but I am the command presence. What I say is going to come from a grounded reality and a pure thought process.
01:38:39
Speaker
I'm trying to help. I'm not trying to get you in jail. I'm not trying to send you to prison. I'm trying to make everybody safe. yeah we're were We're still human. We we are still you know probably neighbors, but we have a job to do. And like you said, bra man the the command presence, the office of presence, like you said, from the the use of force continuum. you know that's That's what we're here for. now now and That's exactly it And it's...
01:39:08
Speaker
I don't need to subjugate anybody. I don't need anybody below me. And that was the problem I ran into at the last security company I worked for. The owner got mad because I told someone, well, he's not law enforcement. He's not security.
01:39:24
Speaker
Meaning he's got no history in it. Turns out nobody there had any history in it. away But don't get mad at me for pointing that out.
01:39:35
Speaker
You know, that's a fact.
01:39:39
Speaker
And, you know, I'm sure you've run into it. Yeah, I'm not a cop, but my whole family was. Or I'm not military, but my whole family was, so I know what it's like. No, no, you don't.
01:39:49
Speaker
huh No. Yeah. that Just because you know somebody does not make you the authority. Yeah. a but I think that's a little bit of that inflated ego kind of kind of thing.
01:40:01
Speaker
People like to be admired, I guess. Yeah. um And I know you want to touch on something. You you brought up. Something there there in Dallas.
01:40:13
Speaker
They're shooting in Dallas. Yeah. Or the security guard. Right. Yeah, I did want to talk about that. and Because the responses I've seen. Now, let me let me be clear right up front. I've never hit anybody.
01:40:26
Speaker
Okay? I've never been involved in an officer-involved shooting. Okay? Never. I've had guns pulled on me. I've been shot at. I've but had knives pulled on me. I've been attacked.
01:40:39
Speaker
OK, but I have never had to shoot anybody and never been in a situation where another officer with me has had to shoot anybody. So I want that to be out front.
01:40:50
Speaker
I have no authority on this. But well, let's get the backstory of it real quick before we kind of get into into some of the details. Like, OK, a Texas a Texas Congress lady hired a man to be her private security.
01:41:08
Speaker
hmm. Now, in Texas, you have level two, which is unarmed, level three, which is armed, and level four, which is private security. You can be armed. You don't have to display your weapon.
01:41:21
Speaker
So you can carry in a shoulder holster or something. And then the then private investigator is is beyond that. Now, this fellow was hired on as a level four security officer. He'd never been through any kind of training.
01:41:38
Speaker
He was not licensed by the state. You have to be licensed by the state here. He was not licensed, but he was providing security for her. Now, apparently, he had warrants out for him. I don't know what those warrants were for.
01:41:53
Speaker
But he became the subject of... an intense glare from Dallas police. So they wanted to talk to him. huh i They approached him to talk to him and he ran.
01:42:11
Speaker
They ended up cornering him in his vehicle in a parking garage, they an elevated parking garage. okay ah I don't know who all was involved, but the video showed someone talking to him. I think the SWAT team was involved.
01:42:28
Speaker
They were trying to coax him out. just They knew he was armed. huh right They knew he was armed. ah They were trying to talk him out to get him to surrender.
01:42:43
Speaker
And by all...
01:42:46
Speaker
View, he was complaining with getting out of the car. Then he pulled his gun. well And it's clear on video, you see him pulling his weapon.
01:43:00
Speaker
And he is not pulling it just to display it. He is pulling it to use it. So they shot him, and they killed him. Justified shooting. I don't argue that.
01:43:12
Speaker
My problem comes in people's comments afterwards. Along the lines of play stupid game, win stupid prizes. Right. Right. right But I reposted it in some law enforcement groups, and I said, it's just sad.
01:43:27
Speaker
Well, why is it sad? He brought that on himself. Yeah, understand that. But what these people don't understand, every officer there who fired a shot, that weighs on them.
01:43:38
Speaker
doesn't matter how justified it was. Taking a human life weighs on you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, combat is simple. See the enemy, shoot the enemy.
01:43:49
Speaker
Right. there's There's really no conscience involved most of the time. He was trying to kill you, so you kill him. Right. Police work is different. it it what My whole thing about what was sad was it didn't have to go that way.
01:44:03
Speaker
<unk> That's what was sad. His family suffers. Every officer there suffers. Right. They all know they had a hand to that man's death. Right. not They didn't cause it.
01:44:15
Speaker
They simply responded in kind the way they were supposed to respond. That does not remove the guilt because Common sense tells me every decent officer there is going to go, how could I have done this differently?
01:44:30
Speaker
A lot of people think we go out there looking to to beat people up, you know, kick ass, take names. that that that That's what we want to do. We want to. Right. yeah We want to, you know, hurt people. But in all honesty, no cop wants to do that.
01:44:44
Speaker
I mean, we don't wake up, you know, to get ready for shift and think of, well, who can I shoot today or who can i you know, beat up today that we don't want to do that. Every time I've had to use force, whether it's, you know, just ah a straight arm bar, you know, taking somebody to the ground or or a fighter or anything, you know, you, I always end up feeling bad. I was raised to not fight unless I had to and then when, if I did.
01:45:08
Speaker
Right. But I still always felt bad because it's not what I want to do. Yeah. Right. Exactly. yeah and that's what that's what so few inmates understand. I don't want to take you to jail.
01:45:23
Speaker
That's not my goal. Right, yeah. You know, as a deputy, as a corrections officer, I don't want you to be locked up. Right. Because nobody likes to be caged. I understand that.
01:45:35
Speaker
But you have broken the law, and you need to pay for that. Now, one thing I told you in that ah piece I sent you yesterday... people will argue about the death penalty.
01:45:47
Speaker
hu um I'll agree with the death penalty. not going to say I'm for it, but I'll agree with it. But what it was instituted for, it was not a punishment.
01:45:59
Speaker
It was a result of the court reaching the conclusion that this person cannot be rehabilitated. If he has any chance of getting out or any chance of being around other people, he's going to act again.
01:46:14
Speaker
Right. The death penalty is simply what I said, one human giving up on another. There's no point in letting him live. You know, it wasn't vengeance. You're not getting paid back for who you killed or how you killed them. It's simply we're giving up on you.
01:46:31
Speaker
you You don't need to be alive anymore. So we're taking that away from you because you're a danger. And it it just what I said, it was the safety of many is increased by the death of one Sad, but it happened.
01:46:47
Speaker
So death is coming for us all. Right. And I told you that, too. i'm I'm not afraid of meeting my maker. I'm just not in a hurry to get there. Yeah, I don't think man like many of us are.
01:46:58
Speaker
But, yeah. No, and I can see that point of view. I really can. I can i can respect that. But i and this this is I think this is the path I want to go to, is so many guys, cops, that is, sheriff's deputies, constables, whatever, investigators, anybody, keep so much of it in.
01:47:23
Speaker
they they They keep it in. Because they don't want their they don't want their families to know. and I told you that. I don't tell my family anything. Right. They don't know about all the security officers dying in the line of duty. They don't know about the cops dying line of duty because I don't tell them.
01:47:40
Speaker
huh Because I don't want them to worry. Exactly. Yeah. You know, and so I think a lot of us, we keep it in to save those we love from worrying, even a little bit.
01:47:53
Speaker
You know, because my wife is of the belief, oh, he's just a security guard. He's going to work, stand in post. It'll be boring. Yeah, probably will. hu Until it's not. Right.
01:48:03
Speaker
yeah Nothing happens until it does. Exactly. And you don't know when that is. 18 times this year, it's ended the life of a security officer. Yeah. Simple as that. yeah and But I don't tell them that.
01:48:21
Speaker
unfortunately, when you keep it in, that builds into stress that gains momentum. And your outlet becomes, and this this is where addiction comes in, you're numbing the pain.
01:48:38
Speaker
Yep. You're No addict that I know enjoys being high. They enjoy numbing the pain. they They just an escape for a little while. And this is what took me a long time. I had some good friends commit suicide. And, ah you know, growing the Catholic Church, oh, yeah you're automatically going to hell. You're going to hell. bla but but but No.
01:49:04
Speaker
Nobody commits suicide death.
01:49:10
Speaker
to To impress other people. Right. They do it to stop the pain just for a little while. and And sometimes that little while ends up being forever.
01:49:22
Speaker
Just stop the pain. and And this is, I think this is the biggest problem right now facing law enforcement is so many people are turning to bottle and drugs to numb the pain.
01:49:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And that's where I want to step in and say, it doesn't have to be like that. There are people out here like you who listen.
01:49:46
Speaker
yeah You've been there. You've run the race. You understand. So maybe this guy over here who's been surrounded by family and friends his whole life, none of them understand what he's going through.
01:49:58
Speaker
You do. Let me introduce you to this guy. Yeah. He's been there. And that's honorable to try to help like that because, I mean, ah especially like in our line of work, you know, it's always frowned upon to let those demons out. So that's why people, you know, officers, anybody that's a first responder goes to some sort of substance, like you said, to numb something.
01:50:23
Speaker
Yeah, rubber gun squad. yeah You know, you get you get into counseling, and that's a—still. ah The federal law says I don't have to tell anybody about antidepressants on my own, so I don't.
01:50:36
Speaker
I don't tell anybody. You know, if ah if I apply with a department, even security officer, you don't need the medication. Nope. Yeah. And is it a—I call it a white lie.
01:50:48
Speaker
Because if I tell them, yeah, I'm on these medications, all of a sudden, their mind flips. They don't they don't see me. They see a lunatic.
01:51:00
Speaker
oh You know, and that's that's not me. You know, so I guess, him and I've told you I don't lie, but I guess I frame it as
01:51:16
Speaker
Am I on any medication that will prevent me from doing the job? uhu No. No, I'm not. No, not I'm not. I'm not hooked on pills anymore.
01:51:26
Speaker
I don't ah don't look for illegal substances to numb the pain or anything. I deal with it. and and And you're right. You're right. is Ego comes with a badge. That that' that that cannot be disputed.
01:51:41
Speaker
So we think we have to be the tough guy and or tough girl and deal with it ourselves. <unk> And I want to get the message out that that's not true.
01:51:53
Speaker
Right. That's a sure path to a quick grave. Because eventually, and it's not going to be very long, you hold it in long enough and it builds up enough, drugs and alcohol are not going to be enough. the Next thing you know, you're suck starting your service weapon.
01:52:11
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and it doesn't have to be like that. I told you about the guy in Ohio or whatever that got busted drunk on duty.
01:52:24
Speaker
Yeah. And immediately, I didn't see somebody that was careless or a bad officer. I saw somebody that needed help. Mm-hmm. and Unfortunately, a lot of ah lot of agencies ah don't have the ability to try to do that. like I know um a lot of of smaller agencies that have run into you know similar incidents like that, and unfortunately, they've got to let the person go because they can't afford, even though supervisors, because I know some good supervisors, want to give them that help.
01:52:56
Speaker
But unfortunately, they don't have the ability to commit to it because they don't have the funding or that you know the the the manpower to keep You know, the the agency moving forward. It's a bummer. Well, this one guy, and I'm not going to say who he was or whatever, but he was a highly decorated officer.
01:53:15
Speaker
He knew what he was doing. He knew the job. He knew people. That was what it was important. He knew people. Yeah. Don't lose that.
01:53:26
Speaker
Maybe he never gets to wear a badge again. Okay. That's just part of it. But don't let this define who you are. You know, I moved back to Houston in 2000.
01:53:41
Speaker
And not long after we moved there, was right before I went to the academy, a Houston police officer ran off the interstate and into a yard and died. He flipped his car, died, burned to death, whatever.
01:53:54
Speaker
His blood alcohol content was over 0.2. point two Wow. ah you mean to tell me in Houston Police Department, as big as it is, nobody knew that guy was drinking on duty?
01:54:05
Speaker
oh Yeah. And had been for years?
01:54:10
Speaker
You know, that could have been avoided. Because i it it happens too much where they keep it all in. I'm a tough guy. I've got to deal with it.
01:54:22
Speaker
Well, it turns out you can. And the message I want to get across is that's okay. Yeah. Everybody needs help. And I appreciate that message in all honesty. I mean, that's something I've been trying to preach for years is like, we don't have to, be we think of ourselves and people look at us as the superhero that's going to show up and help, but we're not, we're not Superman. We're not Batman. We're none of those people.
01:54:46
Speaker
You know, we, we're we're a regular everyday Schmo when we're not at work and we don't have to keep it in. We, we do need to let those demons escape in a good positive way.
01:54:59
Speaker
um Yeah. And you you can do that. And that's where I want to come in. I've been there. I've had the badge. I've also had the bottle. Yeah.
01:55:10
Speaker
I like that. There's a way out. Yeah. There is way out. If I never get to carry a badge again, so be it. That's just what God has planned for me. But I can still help.
01:55:20
Speaker
And i want to I want to focus on law enforcement and prisoners getting out. Right. Guys getting out, assimilating back into society. um I don't know if you've seen this. ah President but Kelly, I think his name is, down in El Salvador. Right.
01:55:42
Speaker
which is where MS-13 originated, right he's eliminated that gang from the country. He has made MS-13 Inc. a prisonable offense.
01:55:55
Speaker
Oh, wow. haven't seen that. I had an inmate at the treatment facility I was at who was from El Salvador. And he said they're using belt sanders, scalpels, even acid to take their ink off oh because they don't want go to go prison.
01:56:11
Speaker
Yeah. But here's the thing. if you get if you have prison If you have gang ink, you're going to basically a pig pen. Right. But if you show any kind of want to go forward, their prison system is incredible.
01:56:32
Speaker
educational. They have other inmates who are who have gotten into drugs but are cleaning themselves up now. They're still incarcerated, but they know carpentry, they know plumbing, they know electrical, they know mechanics, and they're teaching other inmates that.
01:56:48
Speaker
also this guy you know I saw an interview with a guy. Yeah, I got i got i got ah arrested on three counts of rape. Did you rape? Yeah, I did. what are you doing now? When I get out, I'm going to be a a plumber apprentice.
01:57:02
Speaker
I've already got a guy that's going to help me get the journeyman. Cool. Yeah. You know, yeah, his past was terrible. But where's he going in the future? oh Simple as that. And it I say this, that president's whole point...
01:57:19
Speaker
is God. He sees the games as Satan, and he wants everybody to go to work at God. And that's that's his message. you know It works.
01:57:32
Speaker
It has worked. Because ah what he said he has seen is a mass influx of El Salvadorians who came to the U.S. for safety are coming back now.
01:57:48
Speaker
Because it's safer there. Yeah. It's their home. You know, that's, you know, usa USA is the greatest country on earth. That can't be denied. well But it's it's not home to a lot of these people.
01:58:02
Speaker
They want to go home. yeah a lot of I'm sure a lot of the people who come here from Mexico, they want to go home. That's where their home exactly. That's where families That's where their families That's where families are. Everything.
01:58:13
Speaker
But it's not safe there. You have gangs that run around in towns just randomly killing people. Yeah. Just because. Yeah. yeah They don't want to have to deal with that.
01:58:24
Speaker
you know So I think it's great what they're doing in El Salvador, and I hold him as an example in a lot of cases. He has turned the country around. But teaching rather than just putting people away and making sure that they have the ability that when they do get out of prison, they can contribute still, and they're they're going to be welcomed.
01:58:43
Speaker
and And here's the other part of my message. We can do the same thing here. Yeah. Right now, our prison system is a warehouse system. Stick them here, let them sit here and exist until they get out.
01:58:57
Speaker
Reoffend, and they come back. That doesn't need to be. And I don't like that. Because it goes right back to what we talked about, the death penalty. One human giving up on another.
01:59:10
Speaker
and i can do go to prison Too many people go to prison and they're giving up on
01:59:17
Speaker
You know, and and, you know, when they get in prison, they give up on themselves. ah Okay, I'll get in a drug deal in prison. in that
01:59:28
Speaker
Well, Frank, honestly, i I think that's a good place for us to kind of, you know, kick it off. Like, we've talked about a lot of stuff. You've been yeah been through a lot. You've done a lot. You have, you know, a lot of thoughts and opinions. I'm going be honest, some people might not agree with, but I can honestly The way you explain them, hopefully people can at least respect them. And that's the thing is there's always two different sides to a story. Just like show the show's name, there's both two sides to a badge, right?
01:59:56
Speaker
You know, this is where we talk. This is where we share our opinions, our thoughts, our knowledge, and just listen. so This is where we're reaching out.
02:00:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Reaching out. Because what I said before, law enforcement, and that's corrections, police officers, sheriffs, deputies, constables, corrections. I already said corrections, but security officers. Yeah. It's got to be a unified front.
02:00:22
Speaker
Yep, yeah. Because we don't need to put everybody in jail. We need everybody to be better. Yeah. Well, again, I appreciate you coming on and and sitting down with me for the last couple hours. it's been It's been fun. There's been some sad times. There's been some laughs, especially because you're not a beard man. And honestly, I kind of like my beard. I can't grow a beard, to be honest.
02:00:48
Speaker
Oh, that's why you shave and keep it smooth, right? Yeah, I can't grow beard. Well, if there's one last thought that you want to leave with everybody, what what is it going to be? One last thought.
02:01:00
Speaker
ah
02:01:04
Speaker
Help is there when you need it. Yeah. Very fair. How about that? all you got to is ask, right? Help will always be given at Hogwarts for those who ask. i like the Harry Potter reference. It's awesome. Oh, I do too.
02:01:19
Speaker
That's awesome. All right. Well, thank you. And we'll, you know, we'll see you on the flip side and, you stay in touch. All right. Yeah. right. Bye.
02:01:30
Speaker
Alright, and that was Frank. And I'll be honest with you, that one covers a lot of grab. From the Marines, to corrections, to the road, to addiction, to recovery. And now he's trying to give back and help others who are in the same fight.
02:01:44
Speaker
There's a couple things that stood out to me in this conversation. One, humility. You heard it throughout the whole episode. Not trying to be the loudest guy in the room. Not trying to be a hero. Just trying to do the job and do it the right way.
02:01:56
Speaker
Two, perspective. Whether you agree with everything he said or not, it's kind of the point of the show. There's value in hearing how someone else sees it. Especially someone who's worn different parts of the badge over time.
02:02:08
Speaker
And three, probably the biggest one. is that remember that this job, this life, it doesn't come without weight. And too many people carry that weight alone.
02:02:20
Speaker
Frank talked about that pretty openly. What that looks like when it builds up and what it looks like when you finally decide to do something about it. And I think that's something a lot of people, especially in our profession, need to hear.
02:02:35
Speaker
You don't have to carry it by yourself. It's not weakness, it's reality. This job will test you, but it doesn't have to break And if this episode hits home with you or you know someone who should come and talk, reach out.
02:02:50
Speaker
You can find me through the link in the show notes or head over to both sides of the badge online and send me a message. This is both sides of the badge. Just people talking about what life actually looks like.
02:03:01
Speaker
I appreciate you guys being here and we'll catch you on the next one.