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4: Investigator - Megan Alstatt
119 Plays7 months ago
In this powerful episode of Both Sides of the Badge, Garrett sits down with longtime friend and highly respected law enforcement professional Megan Alstatt, who brings more than 23 years of experience spanning patrol, investigations, and fugitive recovery.
Megan opens up about her journey from growing up in a law enforcement family in Cleveland to earning a full-ride scholarship, becoming a deputy, and eventually building a respected career handling some of the most emotionally demanding cases in the field. She shares deeply personal stories about her father — a Marine, Vietnam veteran, and patrol sergeant — whose example shaped her sense of honor, service, and responsibility.
Together, Garrett and Megan explore what it means to be a woman in law enforcement, the pressure of high expectations, and the reality of proving yourself in a male-dominated profession. Megan talks candidly about the emotional toll of sex-crimes investigations, balancing motherhood with duty, the moments that nearly broke her, and the strength it takes to step back when the weight becomes too heavy.
This episode is raw, heartfelt, inspiring, and incredibly human — a reminder of the unseen emotional labor behind the badge and the compassion that drives good cops to keep showing up.
Topics include:
- Megan’s start in law enforcement and the influence of her father
- Being a woman in a traditionally male field
- High-pressure investigations and emotional resilience
- The balance between officer, wife, mother, and protector
- When a case changes you — and when to step away
- The importance of service, empathy, and community
If you’ve ever wondered what real strength looks like in this profession, this conversation offers a rare, honest look into the heart of someone who lives the job with integrity, humility, and courage.
#BothSidesOfTheBadge #LawEnforcementStories #WomenInLawEnforcement #InvestigatorLife #TrueCrime #FirstResponderLife #LEOPodcast #BehindTheBadge #PolicePodcast #TraumaAndResilience #CopsAndCommunity #SurvivorSupport #ThinBlueLineFamily #CriminalInvestigations #PodcastEpisode
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:28
Speaker
And there we go. Megan, how are you? I'm good, my friend. How are you? I'm good. I'm glad to get to see you. I don't think you've stopped by the office much lately and left me any notes.
00:00:41
Speaker
I know. i'm Sorry. I'll be there, i think, beginning the next year. We've got big old trial coming up, so I'm sure I'll be there. That's fair. Well, it's got to be kind of weird for you going the opposite direction your husband now with you down going west and him going east.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yep. It's... ah it's i It's good. It's working out pretty well. But yeah, it's like, hey, bye. And then through the different canyons. But it's good.
00:01:07
Speaker
You guys have always been pretty busy. Yeah. so ah Introduce yourself for us. OK, so my name is Megan. I have been a law enforcement in law enforcement for almost 23 years, which is crazy to believe.
00:01:21
Speaker
That's half my life. um Yeah, I'm a mom of three. um ah wife I have ah a husband who's also in law enforcement it's been in law enforcement a year longer than me on I have worked I started a sheriff's department sheriff's office which is how I met you and then and worked there for 20 years 20 great years I loved it there and then I had the opportunity to um move on to a larger agency and I took that so I've been there for almost three now
00:01:55
Speaker
at the sheriff's office, I did patrol, um but and then I was out, I came out of, was in investigations, and then I came out of investigations for a couple years to be a patrol supervisor, back into investigations, and then when I switched agencies, I went into sort of the same thing I was doing before, but then I switched over to a fugitive unit, so I completely changed kind of my job course, but um I've done a whole bunch of different things, and don't know how much in-depth you want me to go into that, but I can if you want me to.
00:02:25
Speaker
No, I think that's a good start. You know, I think we'll get to well get to know you as we keep talking.
Early Career Challenges
00:02:29
Speaker
and I think I remember, i know I had met you before, but I was pretty young. And the thing that sticks out to me, young in my career, well, I guess young in life too.
00:02:40
Speaker
And I don't remember know if you remember this, but it sticks out. It was shift change. So right around six o'clock, because you guys were doing twelves and we were doing 10s. And we had that crazy guy on South 9th and I had like just gotten out of FTO on my own.
00:02:53
Speaker
And the guy, I think he ultimately was going through dts or withdrawals of some kind. And I couldn't find the address because I had forgotten that that street had the address is backwards.
00:03:08
Speaker
So you come flying down, you just called on duty and you find me and you grab me and you're like this way. So we go find it. go Big thing I remember. i was pretty new and kind of forgot it was all backwards. And yeah, that's what sticks out with me on remembering you and just, yeah, it was great. And then since then, we've just had of you know had some fun. So yeah, good times, right?
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah. Some foot pursuits. I don't remember that. Hopefully I was nice when i was telling you which way to go, but, um, no, you've always been nice. i've I've never heard anybody say anything bad about you.
00:03:48
Speaker
Everybody would, you were, you were the person that they will take into any scenario. They will take you into battle anytime. I've never heard anything bad. No, thank you. That means a lot to me. It's, it's different. Like,
00:04:03
Speaker
I don't know, as a female, especially when, i mean, police officers in general, you know, we're, we're microcosmos society. And i think that there's a my a magnifying glass and rightfully so in some respects on us, but with female police officers, it's even smaller. And I think that a lot of us, um,
00:04:20
Speaker
that really want to do a good job, we worry about that all the time, right? Like we don't want to be that person that, that you don't want to have coming to back you up. And, I think most of us know inherently that to a certain extent, going to have to work a little harder.
00:04:35
Speaker
um and that's okay. So, um it means a lot for me to hear you say that, that that's my fears of being that person. We're not, we're not realized. i would try i still work very, very hard and I work very, very hard and love my job. And so I appreciate that.
00:04:53
Speaker
No, i I remember you being great about it. I feel like we talked about it a little bit and and no, that's probably about when we kind of hit off, ah you know, our little friendship. um Yeah, nothing really sticks out that it being being anything negative. But, you know, it's kind of one of those different.
00:05:09
Speaker
I was young, right? I was 21 when I started. I couldn't have been but a few months younger. you know, within Colorado to to even be a cop. And I feel like I was, I've heard this from a few different people.
00:05:22
Speaker
and I guess, you know, and when i when you think about it, I was a little different. I wasn't one of those 21 year olds where I was, I can't listen to anybody because i already know everything.
00:05:33
Speaker
So, you know, I tried to listen. I mean, I got along with you guys in your agency when a lot of people didn't. Right. So I tried to just listen and learn and absorb and,
00:05:44
Speaker
And ultimately, you know, when I left the agency I was with after the long time I was there, ah kind of realized how good of a really reputation I had built.
00:05:56
Speaker
And I and never really thought of it that way. so So, yeah, that
Women in Law Enforcement
00:06:00
Speaker
was pretty good. um You brought up the topic of of women in law enforcement. I wasn't really necessarily thinking of that. Is that something that you'd like to to dive into? And if you do, do you want to just dive into it right now since we kind of already brought it up?
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess if you want, I mean, I am one. So like yeah, like big nebulous topic.
00:06:22
Speaker
it It was kind of brought up that maybe I i could. do an episode where we did talk about that and maybe this would be a good segment into one where you just talked about some of the, I guess, ups and downs. I know you have been through some um until you said that I'd kind of forgotten about them, but maybe just, just kind of hit, you know, the highs and lows and, you know, maybe that'll work into an episode where I get a few of you gals that I know and, you know, we can all sit down and just talk about and just have one of those episodes.
00:06:52
Speaker
Sure. i mean, I think like for me personally, I don't definitely want to speak for all women, but I think for me personally, and my father, so both my parents had since in law enforcement, my mom was a shorter stint, she was a dispatcher, but my dad was a patrol sergeant, firearms instructor, SWAT guy, like, you know, cop's cop, right? For about 23 years outside of Cleveland.
00:07:16
Speaker
And he cried when I told him was going to become a cop. um But ah ultimately, he was very proud of me, did some ride alongs with me and everything, but he, you know, growing up as my hero. And so I think I felt like when I first came on duty that I had to be him.
00:07:32
Speaker
And, um, I think, And then I had to be like all the men. And to an a certain extent you do. Like for me, I never wanted to be held to a different standard or anything like that because I was a female.
00:07:44
Speaker
And I certainly, um you know, didn't want to be looked down upon for that. But I had to realize that I didn't have to be my dad. I just had to be me. And I had strengths to bring to the job.
00:07:56
Speaker
um And then I had to realize too that no matter how hard I lifted and no matter how hard i worked i was never gonna be, you know, 200 pound man. So there's a lot of self-reflection on my part. Like I had to learn like you know it's okay that that's not what I am I can be the best that I can be at you know five foot two 130 pounds I don't have to be my dad I have my own unique strengths you know you know what I ended up doing for work and I was a I worked with um you know sex crimes and child crimes and child victims quite a bit um and I felt like I was good at that and i had to sort of realize that yep I'm gonna have to work a little harder
00:08:32
Speaker
um, to keep up with the standard that I held myself to, but I didn't have to be anything other than who I was. And again, that just took me as a female. I had a lot of, um, really high expectations, a lot of them unattainable, I think, for myself in the beginning. And so that really had to shift.
00:08:52
Speaker
Um, you know, and I, I feel like I've come to the point where I'm like, you know, it's okay. Like I never get mad at people for treating me like a girl. I am one. Right. But, uh, I, I don't want people to treat me like that, that that's a problem. And there are people that no matter what, I mean, you know how it can be sometimes in this job with, you know, big type, a macho men, like sometimes they have a negative view of females. And so, um, I spent, I did spend some time trying to overcome that until I realized like, look,
00:09:22
Speaker
I can just be the best that I can be and not have to worry about that. So yeah, I think in a sense, there's all those things when you're a female, like you never want to be that girl. Like I mentioned before that, you know, people don't want to call or people don't trust.
00:09:39
Speaker
It's hard because I think as females, we're just generally more emotional. I certainly am. And I had to learn that that wasn't necessarily a weakness. Um,
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, and again, I mean, just I think, too, like I have to work a little harder. Like now I'm on ah i'm on a tactical team at the Asian Samet now, and I did the same standard as the men. Do I have to work harder to to be there? Yeah, and that's that's fine.
00:10:03
Speaker
I realize that. but um But again, nobody expects me to be the same as this 250-pound lumberjack who's going to be a breacher, where i that's maybe not going to be my job, and that's okay. I have different strengths.
00:10:17
Speaker
Have you ever found... that I mean my sister she was in the military and I know she's got her own side and her own stories but she does also have a lot to say that's very similar like she had these expectations and ultimately it was really just it just boiled down to let me just do my my thing that I want to do and it was fine but did you ever find that just being a woman in law enforcement which you know is ultimately male driven you know career field
00:10:49
Speaker
that just being a woman, there was people in our career field that just really didn't want you to be there and there was absolutely nothing you could do to change that.
00:11:02
Speaker
Anything you did, no matter how well it was, wasn't going to be good enough. You know, I honestly, I really don't feel like anybody in either of my agencies has ever made me feel that way. It was just always a fear that I had.
00:11:15
Speaker
and it would make me insecure in certain circumstances. But to be honest, like in our, the agencies that you and I worked with, maybe one or two people made me feel like that. But I would say the vast majority of everyone I worked for was really great.
00:11:30
Speaker
Um, especially on patrol. Now, you know, now and then when I would get emotional or or I would get upset about things and, you know there'd be the comment here or there, but nobody ever made me feel like i wasn't welcome or that they didn't want to see me coming or anything like that. And I think that's in large part because I did hold myself to a high standard. I'm like, Hey, I knew what kind of cop I wanted to be. i admired, you know, people like, you know, my husband that I'm married to now and several of the guys that got hired before me, I wanted to be like them. I wanted to be that good cop. And so I i made the effort to do all those things.
00:12:00
Speaker
And i think people respected me for that. So I really didn't, you know, um I was very lucky. I really didn't. Again, I think a lot of it has to do with my attitude and, and, um,
Family Influence
00:12:13
Speaker
the work that I put into, but it was always a fear. i was like, I like, you know, I just never wanted to be that person.
00:12:18
Speaker
But like I said, they've been really lucky. Now you go on social media or anything like that and you see that, you know, the comments about women cops are either about their body or about how women should never be cops. And there's really very few comment comments but sort complimentary type comments. And that makes me sad because I i just like I said, I've been working with you guys and my agency. I didn't really ever have very many people that made me feel that way. Like I said, maybe could count on one hand, really.
00:12:51
Speaker
Right. No, and I feel I think I agree with that. You could count on one hand. There's there's been some some guys that we've worked with that, you know, I think have been maybe not outspoken to the women that because we haven't had a ton, honestly, in our area as compared to some others, you know, females working in in our line of work.
00:13:10
Speaker
But some of the men, they're not outspoken to, say, you to your face, but I know I've heard them off in the background or, you know, sitting in the squad room or something like that. But, I mean, in all honesty, I think the areas that we've worked in, we've been, we're a little more progressive when it comes to that, a little more accepting.
00:13:27
Speaker
I don't know if that has something to do with the, you the people that are in leadership or the FTO program or just in general, you know, I've.
00:13:41
Speaker
I've trained, I'm trying to think of the the few females that I've, you know, the few women that i have trained as an FTO and and i think I only ran in and butted heads with one, but ultimately she turned out to be an amazing star, um you know, when she got out on her own.
00:13:57
Speaker
So, yeah, I think maybe it's just something maybe we're just a little different with the area that we actually kind of work in so I'm glad culture
00:14:08
Speaker
Yeah. i second I think our leadership is, is good. I think that, um, in general, like I said, and I'm sure there's people that say things, but I mean, that's, unfortunately, that's a side effect of law enforcement culture. Anyway, it's not just women, just like we eat our own pretty well sometimes. And so I don't even think that that's like something that only females experience. And you can't really care about that kind of thing. The vast majority of the time, like I never really felt like like, of course, those little moments where I'm like, is that because I'm a girl? And then I just have to brush that off, right? Like it doesn't, who cares?
00:14:40
Speaker
At the end of the day, I think it was the culture we had. We had a lot of good people that were super supportive. And then the women, vast majority of the women we had come through our county for all our agencies. They were there because they wanted to do the job. They were they were doing their best to do that good job.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I think that maybe it takes a little longer for some of the guys to to find that out. with women and I don't know, I've never been a guy, so I don't know if it's the same for guys too, but like maybe it takes a little bit longer for women to kind of kind of gain that respect, like, Hey, making sure they're here for the right reasons. But I feel like if we're meeting everybody in that space, then, um,
00:15:19
Speaker
You know, i I feel like we have that mutual respect. At least I never felt like on a call, people didn't want me there, I guess. And then ah largely when I was a detective, I felt like people were really happy to have me show up. So, um, for the most part.
00:15:35
Speaker
Definitely. I mean, shoot, I got into investigations after spent 18 years working patrol and who's the first person I called? Oh, I'm talking to her. I called you a bunch of times.
00:15:47
Speaker
Um, No, I think um there is there's there's a point where you want to know, and you do this with probably every trainee, um and maybe, and and i and i honestly, I'll just say um I might be guilty of it depending on the person sitting next to me, but even you know with with a female sitting next to me, that if the shit's going hit the fan, I need to know that I don't have to protect you or take care of you.
00:16:13
Speaker
that you're going to be able to manage yourself kind of thing. And I think just in general, like, you know, it's kind of that male thing as as a protector that you kind of feel like you have to when it comes to a female. Like it's just one of those, you know, ingrained things in you. But you, like I said, people will, you've set the reputation for yourself where people want you to go to war with them. Like they have no problem at all. So that's the reputation you built.
Emotional Toll and Coping
00:16:42
Speaker
I mean,
00:16:43
Speaker
The other ones, you know, like my sister, she's been on, you know, she did that first episode with me. I know she's built that reputation. And there's been a few other women that have come through um in the area that we work that have that exact same reputation.
00:16:55
Speaker
You know, I can think of at least one other investigator in another county that's in our area.
00:17:02
Speaker
You know, the the the the exact same thing. So. I'm glad that it hasn't been terrible for you and you've been able to you know kick some ass and kick in some doors and build this reputation that literally I don't hear anything bad and when you do show up people do breathe a sigh of relief because one you know what you're doing and two um Maybe it is the female side like you said you put that emotion into it and that's not we talked about before we you know we started this that you do
00:17:33
Speaker
live almost some of your investigations, which I think helps you with being an investigator. Yeah, I I have a tough time trying to put that much emotion into my investigation sometimes because it just takes so much out of you.
00:17:49
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think there's a balance there somewhere. i'm just going to kind of circle back to the one thing you said really quick, and then if you want, we can super segue into that side of the emotional part investigations if you want, but you said something about you just the protective nature of of the male cops, and I will say that that's something that I had to to learn to appreciate, too. that You guys can't shut that off. off. And I understand that. So I'm one hand, I feel like men, of course you want to know that we can handle ourselves. You don't want to have to have to swoop in and save us. And you shouldn't have to, like, we should be, you know, right there with you in the middle of that. And we should be willing to go hands on and all those things.
00:18:28
Speaker
But i also don't expect the guys to shut that off. Like I've had, I've had several, I can think of a couple different interactions where like, it wasn't because they didn't think I could handle myself. It's because you don't talk to a woman like that on scene.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I didn't even have a chance to get in. And that was already dealt with. And like, you know, at first i was like, come on, you know, I got this. But then I realized, like, it's just God bless all of you guys for being how you are. You know, that's just that's just in your nature.
00:18:57
Speaker
And I really wouldn't want you to be any other way. Right. Like, I mean, it's not, it's not because you didn't think I could do it. It's because you care about me and you care about women and that's just ingrained. And so i had to like get that little, you know, chip off my shoulder, like, Hey, come on now. I got this. And it was like, well, ease up, you know, ease up, Megan. They're just, they're just being protective and that's not a bad thing.
00:19:20
Speaker
think a lot of it too is just respect. You know, a lot of, of that's how we were raised. You know, a lot of us good ones that, that, that do do that. you weren't allowed to talk to your mom that way because what would dad do he would smack you right outside the back of the head and go excuse me and that's just ingrained from when you were since you were a baby basically so your initial reaction is oh you can't do that you it'd be different it would be the it wouldn't be different it'd be the same for pretty much anyone i'm i'm sure maybe we've been on scene somebody smacked off and i probably did the same thing um... you know and and and ultimately i think a lot of mine is is one some of that
00:19:58
Speaker
when it comes to just when you're an FTO also, you you you feel like you have to protect whoever. It doesn't matter, man or or woman sitting next to you. But you do.
00:20:10
Speaker
You don't necessarily test them, but you you have to figure out if they can handle it. So you always you kind of feel like that protective nature and and letting it go to. So it's not just that. But at the same time, you're right. There's this instinct in us that just never you can't turn it off if it's there and and you do respect women.
00:20:27
Speaker
it's, it's going to be there. Well, and I think that's a big reason we all take the job. We are, we are just protectors. That's what we want to do. Like we we took this job. would say all of us, you know, we all, we all have that cliche. i wanted to help people, but it really is a spirit of service and protection of people who maybe can't protect themselves. And,
00:20:46
Speaker
um it should be in in all of us, male and female, that are in this job. I mean, that's why you do it. And so, yeah, I just think it goes back to the very the very root of why we became public servants in the first place.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well... We did kind of get off on on that little side note there. let's Let's start off. let Let's get back on track a little and and learn a little bit more about Megan when she was younger.
00:21:11
Speaker
You did talk about your parents being love involved in law enforcement. And I heard something about Cleveland, meaning you didn't grow. I'm assuming you didn't grow up in Colorado and live here you know your entire life.
00:21:24
Speaker
Let's hear about younger Megan and and the shenanigans that I'm sure you caused. No, no, no shenanigans. I was such a square Garrett, like you're such a nerd.
00:21:35
Speaker
um no, I really was. Uh, I was the oldest of, um, two, my little sister, she was three years younger than me. She, she passed away when she was 18. I was 21. Um, but it was, yep, the four of us and my dad, like I said, was a patrol cop, sergeant, he's Vietnam veteran, Marine, so very strict, um but also just very fun and just, like I said, every bit of my hero.
00:22:01
Speaker
And he was a cop for, until I was probably about 13 and then he had a retire on disability. um My mom, I feel like she did some undercover work when she was younger, but she was ultimately a dispatcher.
00:22:14
Speaker
So both came from public service. But no, I was the oldest. I was uber responsible. I got straight A's. I lettered an academic because I was like a turbo nerd legitimately. Like I can't even, I mean, I'm sure I did some goofy things, but nothing, like nothing really, like I was too afraid of my dad, disappointing my dad, you know, like I just. Well, that's fair. you You got both ends of it. You got the military side and the cop side.
00:22:40
Speaker
Yeah, my dad, it's funny, like one of the funniest things when I was getting ready to go to college, you know, my mom's getting me the fan and, you know, the Tupperware things and all this stuff. And my dad one day calls me out to the garage.
00:22:51
Speaker
He's like, Meg, it was so fake. It was Meg, can you come help me in the garage? Because i I always, I was the manual labor kid. I always helped him with whatever he was doing. And I love changing my car oil with him, all that kind of stuff. Major tomboy, big shock, right?
00:23:04
Speaker
um But I go go out to the garage. yeah I go out to the garage, and he is like, I got you something for college, and he hands me 25 feet of rope and a K-bar. It's amazing. So that was my my dad's gift to me for college. and I'm not joking. I just carry the K-bar with me everywhere.
00:23:25
Speaker
But, yeah, so, no, I just – I was a pretty – pretty um good kid like I they when I was really young you know my parents sat me down I was like 12 and they're like here's the deal you know we don't have lot of money and my dad was a cop my mom stayed home until he had to retire and then she went to work and we just didn't have you know, a ton of money and they're like, we, you can either, like, we don't have a college fund for you. So the reality is you can either work your way through college and go to the military or you can get a scholarship.
00:23:55
Speaker
And i almost went to the military. Actually, busted my hump and that's why i did so good at school because i was like well you know i want to get a scholarship and ended up getting a full ride scholarship to the college i went to i ended up double majoring got two degrees and then when i came home well so let me back up so in high school we had to do this mentorship our senior year.
00:24:18
Speaker
And i was very good friends with the chief of police of a nearby town with his son. We were like best friends. So he got me a mentorship up at the crime lab up in that area.
00:24:28
Speaker
And so I did six weeks there and I loved it. so I went to school, to college for criminal justice and biology. i thought I was going to major in forensic science. I thought I wanted to work in a lab. And then when I got out,
00:24:42
Speaker
And I don't even really know when the shift was, but I think I told myself, well, if I want to go do crime scene stuff, I really need to learn what the road's like. I should be a cop first.
Transition to Detective Work
00:24:52
Speaker
So then I say, Daddy, i want to go to the police academy.
00:24:54
Speaker
He was like, what? He's like, you two degrees. Why do you want to be a cop? And was literally like that. And I'm like, well, I don't know if it's going to be forever, you know, like whatever. And then I, you know, here I was, went to the police academy and he drove me, my dad drove me to every agency that I tested He was there after every single one of them. He was waiting in the car. Like he wanted to, he wanted to hear.
00:25:17
Speaker
When I got hired at the sheriff's office, he was there. He was there for my swearing in. And I knew he was not thrilled about me becoming a cop, but I remember when I got my badge after the swearing-in, we went and sat, we were at this McDonald's, and ah he's like, can I see it?
00:25:35
Speaker
And I was like, my badge? And he says, yeah. And he opens it, I was like wrapped in like saran wrap, and he opens it up, and he starts to cry, and he's like, well, that's pretty cool. Um, so he just, and then he wrote with me a whole bunch and he met everybody that I was working with and he's like, you're going to be okay here.
00:25:50
Speaker
so it was really fun, um, to ride with him. But I think it, you know, I thought I knew what becoming a cop was going to be like because I lived with one for so long and I watched him.
00:26:01
Speaker
He had a lot of PTSD from, sorry, my dad's not here anymore. So it's hard to talk about him. Um, but you know, he, had a lot of PTSD, he had a lot of emotion, and you know, for my dad, a lot of it came out as anger, but I think I always understood that it was just because he cared so much about people that that's the only like way he knew so I was always very close to him, but I think he knew more than I did, he's, because you can you can't know what this job's going to do until you're in it, but think he knew how much it would change how I viewed the world, and I think he knew how much it would break my heart,
00:26:38
Speaker
and he didn't want his baby to see the things that I saw, but at the end of the day you know, when I, when I did it, when I was doing it, you know, he was very proud, and he wanted to talk to me after every shift, and, um you know, I called him all the time with things, and it was just really cool, it was really cool to sort of share that with him, and don't really know, there was like a switch, there wasn't really like a switch that flipped or anything, I just went to the academy, and I liked it and think I thought I wanted to be a detective and that's what I did as soon as I possibly could. I mean i loved patrol, but, um, that's just kind of how it, how it all started.
00:27:20
Speaker
I'm glad that you had somebody like that. That that's, that's pretty important. Um, I didn't have a mentor like that to walk me through law enforcement. I,
00:27:31
Speaker
I got the, I can't believe you're doing that when I got into law enforcement. It wasn't really the supportive kind of kind. um They definitely did want me, my parents to do more.
00:27:43
Speaker
um I've since learned that I guess I did have an uncle that was involved in law enforcement, but I didn't know that. So to me, I didn't, I didn't have that guidance. So honestly, people like you and the other, you know, guys that we've known for,
00:27:58
Speaker
you know, as long as we have those, those were my mentors. Those, you guys are the people that I've looked up to, um, that, and you know, I was so young child when I started this. So, um, you, you brought up the fact that your dad, um, and thanks for that segue, cause that's great right into the next little path here.
00:28:17
Speaker
You guys were at McDonald's and and he, he opened it and, and thought it was cool. What was it like getting your badge for the first time? How was it? but What, what'd you feel? Oh man, like a lot of things, like because I grew up with ah with a cop, you know, my dad very much instilled the sense of responsibility and honor that that badge carried. And he always used to tell me, he's like, Megan, you're in the jar.
00:28:42
Speaker
You have that badge. As soon as you have that badge, everyone knows that you're a cop. Everyone's looking at you and everything you do is going to be looked at more closely. And you just, you have got to be sure that, you know, you are behaving right and acting right in all aspects of your life, like, it's our name, it's the name of your agency, it is the name, it the entire profession, you know, you are responsible in your actions for how people feel about those things, and so I think I always knew, that when I got it, like, that was, it was going to change, right, like, I just had to be, if if I expect the people that, in my community to, to,
00:29:23
Speaker
behave right, follow the law and be good people, then I have to be a good person first, and so I think when I finally got that bet, I was really proud of myself, um you know, there's definitely challenging moments in the academy and things like that, you're like, what did I get myself into, it's part of myself, I knew I made him proud, which made me happy, and I just was excited to go out and serve and see what I could do to help my community, but also just that responsibility of like,
00:29:53
Speaker
no turning back, like you're here now, you took an oath, you swore this oath to God, and to your sheriff, and to your community, and to yourself, and you're, not that you're ever going to be perfect, I mean, there's certainly things that I wish I would have done differently in all these years, but you have to at least go into everything with the best of intentions, and you have to really be you know, just conscientious of how you treat people, and how you behave, and and make sure that you maintain your morality and your integrity and in your your care and the way that you treat other people.
00:30:30
Speaker
did did you Did you feel like there was a little more weight with it? but Kind of like you said at the beginning, you had these high expectations because you kind of thought you knew that what it was like to be a cop because your dad had been one.
00:30:44
Speaker
and you and your dad were close, did you feel like there was a little more weight to, say, your badge compared to some of the other, mine, even? Maybe? Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. I was like, maybe I'm going to have to think about that, but no. I mean, sure.
00:30:59
Speaker
Because, you know, my my dad... yeah, I really, wanted to do right by him too and make him proud as well because he, you know, left a legacy where he came from and I didn't want to be the one that did anything to, to mess that up. You know, he would always say, he's like, you got to earn your stripes. You got to earn your stripes like, oh, my whole childhood, right? Like you got to be tough. You got to be honest. You got to earn your stripes. And I just really wanted to feel like, um, you know, I had taken all the things he taught me and then that I did, that I earned my stripes, right?
00:31:32
Speaker
Not just from him too, you know, obviously I'm religious, I'm Christian, Catholic, and, you know, ultimately every Christian wants God to say that when they die, like, hey, you earned your stripes, you know, well done, good and faithful servant. And so, sure, I think that to having that role model and that person, these huge shoes,
00:31:50
Speaker
that I really didn't ever have to fill, but I felt like I had to fill. Sure. I put a lot more pressure on myself, but that's my nature too. But yeah, no, I think we've had talks about that. You know, when we're sitting there on the side of the road, spooning, you know, when we take the car, I feel like we've had that conversation before.
00:32:09
Speaker
Um, Oh, going to make me cry a little bit too. I got a grandfather. He, uh, my grand, I got a grandfather. He's not doing too great. And, uh, I've been trying to talk to him a little bit more, but, you know, we've had a crazy summer and stuff. And yeah yeah he was never actually really truly involved in law enforcement, but he he kind of was where my family comes from, where my parents grew up.
00:32:34
Speaker
in California he was big he he was a educator he ended up he was a teacher forever and a principal and stuff but he always tried to to be in the community because in the in the the Latino community the Spanish and and Mexican community because that's that's his heritage so he did a lot of work with
00:32:57
Speaker
the juveniles, especially the ones that were getting involved in gangs. So he did work pretty close with the local police department. And I didn't even know that until I became a cop. So um he always he always has something to say about how proud he is of me and everything and, you know, stuff like that. And and honestly, that's he's probably the only one that's said it since day one, because like I said, my parents, I know they were proud.
00:33:21
Speaker
They really just weren't happy that I did that. They wanted bigger things for me. So because we come from that generation, well, our parents came from that generation where it was still go to school. And while I did go to college, I didn't finish.
00:33:33
Speaker
i It was time to become a cop. you know I married young, had kids young, started my career young. I started life young, kind of like, I don't know about your parents, but my parents did. So that's what I ended up doing.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah, no like college either. He went and joined the Marines and went to be Vietnam. But, you know, one of the smartest men you ever meet. I mean, he just he could figure anything out. Like you give him a book or give him a problem like he'd figure out how to do it.
00:34:00
Speaker
I'm sorry to hear about your grandpa, but I'm sure he's proud of you. I've known you too. I've known you since you were a baby cop. I think you've done pretty good for yourself. I appreciate that. No, I was, like I said, I was a baby. I was a baby, baby cop.
00:34:13
Speaker
Even my former chief has has reached out a couple of times over the last few years and and said some good things. So it's it's been but interesting, like said, since leaving that agency. I've kind of realized my reputation.
00:34:26
Speaker
i always Sometimes I still feel like, the baby, even though I'm 20 years in, because have folks like you that I've grown up with that are still, you know, you like you we're all moving on and getting leadership spots or chief spots. You know, we we know a few people that we grew up with that are now chiefs.
00:34:44
Speaker
or commanders and stuff like that. So it still feels like you're kind of the baby. And then you got to realize, yeah, I'm 20 years in. I am freaking old. Like, why does that really trust me with these problems? Like, oh yeah, I've been doing this a hot minute, right?
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah. and Well, and I'm sure you've probably done it, but I just went to a sex assault conference And they're doing their little, like, meet and greet, you know, um happy hour thing. And and I sit down and i'm talking to some of these, you know, cops around me. And realize, wow, you were born in the 2000s.
00:35:24
Speaker
How rude. and know. Holy cow. Like. And then they're like, oh, yeah, and I've been a cop for like three years. And I'm like, oh, that's right. It is 2025. That is possible. no I know. I know. Yeah.
00:35:38
Speaker
yeah It's interesting. but I feel that way too though. Like, you know, the sheriff that I worked for, mean, I was one of his first hires. And so like, we kind of grew up through the sheriff's office together too. He's always been sort of the second father figure to me. And he's always treated me like a daughter. And so I still very much sometimes feel like ah baby too. i guess, I mean, that's one of the great things about this career though too, is that you just never, you never know everything. There's always a new problem to solve. There's always new things to learn. And so,
00:36:06
Speaker
In a sense, I mean, and I think if you get to the point where you think you know everything, you probably ought to do something different. But um I think a lot of us have that same feeling. Plus, I don't and don't feel like I'm as old as I am.
00:36:19
Speaker
So... until we wake up in the morning and you're like, oh, why does that rib hurt? now I know why that rib hurts. Sat on by people you know, jujitsu who outweigh me by 50 pounds.
00:36:33
Speaker
I'm just chalking it up to I hate my bed. I need like a soft um bed. Let's let's move on a little bit to your career. How has or you know what?
00:36:46
Speaker
Is there something maybe early on that happened in your career that kind of shaped on or off to you, that kind of shaped who you've become?
00:36:59
Speaker
Oh, make matt as a cop. As a cop? who Yo, gosh, so many things. My gosh, yeah. I mean, trying to think of like a good one.
00:37:13
Speaker
Well, you know, I think probably the most obvious so I've got two in mind, like most obvious was when I first came into investigations and I, you know, i thought detectives did homicides and all this, you know, so I come in, um, to investigations and I literally, they gave me the keys to my unmarked and they're like, you're the girl, you're going to do all the sex assaults and you're on call. So get after it. And it wasn't quite like that, but I kind of got thrown into that, that, um, I guess,
00:37:43
Speaker
line investigations, not knowing how much i would truly be honored to be part of that. Um, so that for sure, that just be sort of being given to me, um change the trajectory of, of how I became a cop and how I've, you know, just the world and my empathy for people, um, most definitely.
00:38:07
Speaker
But there was also another time when I was an investigator, was a sex assault case and they ended up in a mistrial, we had to retry it, and that he was acquitted, and I remember thinking to myself, because everyone was, of course, devastated, and I remember thinking to myself, like, I really can't protect everyone the way I want to, like, what do I do now, and that was really, really, really hard for me, um to reconcile, like, I really just can't be what I want to be for everyone,
00:38:41
Speaker
And then along those lines too, you know, thinking and it was even the same case. it was the same case. um I had made the arrest and I thought so, so dumbly.
00:38:52
Speaker
was like, everybody's going to be relieved and it's going to be great. And they weren't. They were terrified. They're like, now he knows. Like now he knows that we've told. And it just really like opened my eyes to just, I really just don't know anything.
00:39:05
Speaker
And it really taught me how to listen to people and to not just like, you know as cops yes we're gonna go solve a crime and we're gonna arrest people and we're gonna hopefully hold them accountable if they're guilty they're gonna go to prison or jail or wherever they belong but that's not all of it there's just this whole human experience behind every single call and every single person and you don't know it until you ask them, until you talk to them, and until you really um care enough to sort of figure that out.
00:39:40
Speaker
And so you might be with an arrest or or what have you solving that problem for that day, but you also have this opportunity to help this whole other human experience. So while I couldn't keep that person in jail, there were all these other things I could do to support that family or all these other resources I could give them. And I think I just learned...
00:40:02
Speaker
in and those moments that, like, it was just so prideful. I think we just feel like we can swoop in and save the day. And that's just, it's just not, not reality. But what we can do is we can care enough to sort of bring all these other resources to sort of scaffold everyone that we deal with and that we, that we help so that they're supported in all these other ways. And we can, we can get to the root of things instead of just putting a bandaid on a thing. i don't know if that's, I'm from articulating that very well, but it just really opened my eyes to sort of the ah vastness of people's experiences and why they call us and why we get involved in their lives.
00:40:43
Speaker
No, I honestly think, you know, it does. Everybody's got this view of law enforcement and even those that, you know, outside of law enforcement, it's just the regular patrol officer. We we go out, we write tickets, we make arrests.
00:40:58
Speaker
It's done. um You brought up now he knows there's a whole other side because now now we're we it's not over. It might be over for the investigator ish.
00:41:10
Speaker
It might be over for the patrol officer because they're not going to be involved much. But now we've got the whole um the whole court side and however long that might take. and you and I both know that can take many, many years and it gets, it's, it's emotional and it's hard. And, and these, the victims have to, to, they have, the defendant has the right to, you know, have,
00:41:39
Speaker
oh, you know, what I guess I kind of lost my train of thought on that particular one. The, the, the defendant has the right to um Not question.
00:41:50
Speaker
um To face their cues or to make their, and then to make their, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Thank you. Thank you for that. But yeah. So, I mean, it's hard and a lot of ah folks don't understand how emotional and hard and that, that that can be. And, and, you know, it might've taken 18 years before I took this, this spot that I'm in now for me to actually realize there's that whole other side that,
00:42:16
Speaker
It's just mind blowing. So. So, no, I mean, yours does make sense. And and having to take care of it like this whole side on on this investigation side that I'm doing, sitting down with the victims before motions, hearings and and preliminary hearings and trial and everything.
00:42:33
Speaker
you You end up building this rapport with them. And yeah, that's something you've always been really good at, even from the word go, you know, working. All the investigations that you've done.
00:42:46
Speaker
Thanks. my I mean, I really, i love people, you know, and if I do, and maybe I think to a fault sometimes, maybe if that's such a thing, but, um, once I know you, i love you, you're part of my family. It's just like, you guys have always been that way.
00:43:02
Speaker
But when people come to me for help, it's just hard for me just to not feel the same way and to really just want to do everything I can do to help them. mean, there's probably several times i maybe even helped a little more than I should have, but I just, especially with sex crimes, you know, there's so many barriers to people reporting and I'll, you know, a lot of them are something that seems so simple. Like, you know, I can't report. He's the only person that makes money in the family will be homeless. And that's what happens when they report, right? Like I just, if I was in a, if I was in a position to not let that happen, um, with any way, um, any resources that I had,
00:43:43
Speaker
anybody I could call, like I was not going to let that happen. And not just for sex assaults, for anybody else too. Like I can't report because, you know, he's going to do XYZ or this is what's going to happen with my job. And like any, anything I could do to try to help somebody and I would help people that had gotten in trouble too like I've had several defendants and and people you know can I want them I don't want them to keep committing crimes I want them to get better I want them to do better so same thing like I've tried to go out of my way to help people because I think at the end of the day like this job is about service and I'm here for my community and I'm here to give to them and to ultimately make my community safer and a better place to live and for my kids too growing up and so
00:44:28
Speaker
I think it's just good for us as law enforcement officers, even on patrol, like even if we're not going to keep that that case for very long or if it's just a singular interaction, like we have so much ability, even just by the way we treat people, to just make something better.
00:44:47
Speaker
And if we, I think we just need to always think about like what are things we can do to make things better for the situation or for this person.
00:44:56
Speaker
How,
00:44:59
Speaker
How has this career impacted, ah guess, just your life in general, you emotionally at times?
Emotional Impact and Role Change
00:45:08
Speaker
I know we talked a little bit about that before, but the ups and the downs.
00:45:13
Speaker
and And I say that because we're talking, you know, I've. you've invested time in people because you want to see them get better and I have and to me there there was a time where I had to learn like i got to be done and this is hard and I just got to let you figure it out on your own and ultimately it came back a few years after that where I got a good response like hey I'm doing great and that was big fulfilling for me so how has that been for you you've been involved in a lot more big really big emotional cases than I have. How has that been for you?
00:45:49
Speaker
I think, you know, on the good side of things, there's always those individuals that that do so so well. And not just, not because of me, but because, you know, they're put in a situation where everybody that they're dealing with is caring and helpful and supportive. I'm very lucky.
00:46:06
Speaker
you know, I'm still, this blows my mind too, because I never push it. Like, I'm always conscientious that I'm meeting people on probably the worst day of their life, especially in a sex crime room. You know, they're reporting something that was unbelievably difficult for them. we I couldn't even fathom, right?
00:46:22
Speaker
and it always blows my mind and I'm always just so humbled when they still want to interact and have, you know, conversations with me. And so I'm very, very lucky that I have several families that I still talk to I've watched their kids grow up.
00:46:36
Speaker
I've watched them succeed. Like one of my very first cases, that mom and I are still very good friends. She texts me almost every day, like one of her kids. Um, she still calls me when she has questions about things and I'm just so honored and humbled that,
00:46:51
Speaker
that I have that. And so obviously seeing things turn out well and seeing that you were part of helping like stop this sort of, um, descent, right? Like you're able to, okay I'm here now.
00:47:07
Speaker
We're all going to help you. And seeing that work, seeing people recover, seeing people truly get through, their trauma is you i mean, that's just, incredible. That's such a blessing to be able to be part of, um, you know, and obviously holding really bad people accountable is very rewarding. There are, there are evil, bad people out there.
00:47:32
Speaker
think the vast majority of people that we deal with, it just kind of, it's a poop sandwich and just keeps getting bigger for them. You know, they've got a lot of things working against them. You know, they're, they're not evil inherently. They just can't quit making a wrong decisions, but there are some, and they need to be held accountable too, but there are some very truly evil people that I've dealt with. And I'm very happy that I got to be part of taking them out of where they can hurt somebody else and taking them out of those situations.
00:48:01
Speaker
But yeah, man, it's hard, you know, like, you know, not just, you in the investigative world but as a patrol cop like you you don't want to see people die you don't want to see people get hurt you don't want to see the system fail people you don't want to see people that did wrong get off you don't that's all very hard and it's kind of like you said you know you you have to get to a point where you look yourself in the mirror and you say i have done everything in my power And there's nothing else I can do. And for me, I have to just give it to God.
00:48:34
Speaker
and I just have to accept that, like, I've done everything he's equipped me to do. And it's not, I wish it, I guess, pardon me, which is it was, but it's not my job to save everybody. I can't, it's just not possible, but it's hard. I mean, I definitely, it's tough to like balancing family. I have three children. And so that can be really hard, you know, like, you know, our job, it's so important. It really is so important.
00:49:00
Speaker
But my my job as a mother is most important and it has to stay prioritized in that way. And that can definitely in this job, like one of the ways it's affected me for sure is just your priorities kind of get out line. Right. And so you just have to reassess and make sure priorities in the right place.
00:49:20
Speaker
But I'm not going to sit here and tell you that all about those years of I mean, ultimately, that's why I ended up switching agencies. just all those years of working those crimes and, and, and those kinds of things, they take their, it was fine until it wasn't is what I always tell everybody.
00:49:39
Speaker
Um, it just got to a point where there are a couple of instances and we can talk about it if you want, where I was like, it might be time finally for me to step by or step back. And I spent a lot of time praying about it and a lot of time, um, talking to Jason about it.
00:49:54
Speaker
Um, and it was really hard decision, but You also have to realize you get to a point where I'm going to get to a point where I'm not effective and I need to so to give this to somebody else before that happens.
00:50:11
Speaker
So I'm not going to sit here and tell you that that's not part of it. And, you know, I think every cop will tell you to another side effect of this is that you just never look at the world the same way. You know, like I don't, you never, ah people don't understand. Like ah was at function with some homeschool moms and they were asking if I was going to this public event. And I was like, I just don't know if I have the energy to do that. And I don't know if I want to carry my gun this weekend. And she was like, why would you have to carry your gun? It's just, it doesn't occur to people. Like I can't go out
00:50:42
Speaker
knowing that I have the skills that I have and the badge that I have and the responsibility that I have and not pay attention and not want to protect. I can't go to church without thinking that way. I can't go to grocery store without thinking that way.
00:50:54
Speaker
Certainly when I have my children with me, I can't stop thinking that way. You just, you can't, like, the the emotional energy sometimes it takes to go out in a crowd or out in public or where you where you're, you know, you just feel like you are responsible for protecting people. Like, sometimes you just don't, you just can't. Like, you just need to stay at home in your stretchy pants and not go out.
00:51:16
Speaker
So you definitely, you know, it changes how you look at the world, for sure.
00:51:21
Speaker
Is there a time where through all that, and I think that's kind of what you maybe were getting to, where this job and and and its emotions and everything almost broke you where you you you questioned what you were doing and why you were doing it is that kind of where where you were saying we could get into yeah talking about yeah I I have never just a just a point of clarification because know what you're getting at but I've never questioned why I'm doing what I'm doing like I always I'm very very focused like this is my chosen vocation, 100% believe this is where God wants me to be, 100% believe in everything that this job is, um but i think I always knew that when it came to the sex crimes, the child crimes, that there was going to be a point where I was going to have to probably step back,
00:52:13
Speaker
And so, and I'm going to cry. So I'm just going to warn you right now. If anybody listening doesn't want to hear me cry. now you forced hey We've laughed. We've cried. That's what the point of this is Yeah.
00:52:25
Speaker
Um, so probably the last couple of years i was with the sheriff's office and and please understand like my, my agency, super supportive, like super great with um peer support, counseling, things like that. It was, it was never that I felt like I wasn't supportive because I totally was. We did great debriefs and everything like that, but it,
00:52:45
Speaker
I think people think that you get better at compartmentalizing this stuff is the longer you've been doing it. And that's just not true. It's just cumulative. You know, you don't, you know, so at some point I knew it was all going probably like come to a head.
00:53:00
Speaker
So probably for the last couple of years that i was with the sheriff's office, had a couple really heavy cases and I was really glad that, um, I was working them. I was blessed to have that responsibility. i had my partner and I were, he was amazing. Like it was, I was really happy that I got to work those for the people that I worked them for. And that I was really grateful that I had the partner that I had because I knew what kind of job we were going to do.
00:53:23
Speaker
had a great investigations division. So I'm not, I'm not trying to elevate us above anybody else by any stretch, but I just, it was just a, I was glad that I was given the opportunity to, to help these cases. Right. So,
00:53:35
Speaker
But there were two major points. One, like I told you, I'm Catholic. I don't wish bad. i I don't have malice for people. Like, I don't wish bad on anybody. But
00:53:48
Speaker
even the people I've put in prison, like, I've always just sort of tried to pray for them and be like, look, I really hope they can change. But I'm also glad that they're out of a position where they can hurt anybody else, right? So it was never like, oh, I hope that guy, you know, whatever. i never, i don't think I've ever said anything like that.
00:54:05
Speaker
my whole career. But there was one um interview. i was doing an interview with an investigator who's not with us anymore at the agency or even in the state. But I sat down with this guy and will read him as rights per Miranda.
00:54:23
Speaker
He starts to talk. He really gave me a threat I could have pulled and probably gotten a um confession out of. But I had watched several interviews before talking to him. Everything else was very raw.
00:54:38
Speaker
was a very, very rough case. And I, he had his hands folded and Garrett, I looked down at his hands and I thought of everything that I knew he had done with them.
00:54:51
Speaker
And I got so angry, angry enough that I realized I needed to get up and leave the interview room, which is what I did. And, um, he asked for a lawyer and it ended up being fine. Um, you know, we didn't need his confession, but, um, that was never something that I ever done.
00:55:08
Speaker
I'd never, I'd always been able to be like, as hard as this is, I'd always been able to be like, look, Jesus died for him too. Like he's a human being. Like I need to treat him like that. And I was so mad. Um, and I had to get up and walk out and i was like, I shouldn't have been in that interview. I should have let somebody else do it. But you know, nobody knew the case as well as I did. So I felt like it had to be. So that was one moment.
00:55:29
Speaker
And I just declare, I'm like, I never, it wasn't like I wanted to hurt him. it was nothing like that. I just, it was just an emotion that I've never really carried with me into an interview before. And i I was like, okay, I got to be careful.
00:55:41
Speaker
And then, i mean, you already know this case and I don't want to say too terribly much, I guess it's over with, but a really, really bad child abuse. And um it was bad. You know, she,
00:55:56
Speaker
Sorry. umt you we crackers You just brought that one up and I remember that one too. Yeah. I'm just finished on my end. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just um so close to the my daughter's age and just very, very bad and awful. And so the saving grace is that she's doing so well and it's it's a great.
00:56:16
Speaker
But the kind of things that that case involved, was just so beyond anything that I could ever have imagined somebody could do. And was probably a good month or so after that case. like I was sick.
00:56:35
Speaker
I would throw up every day. I came home from work. You know, my hair was falling out. I couldn't keep weight on, you my the girl lady who does my hair, she's just like, I don't know what's wrong with you, but, like, I've never seen you look so, like, thin-haired. And, like, I just couldn't.
00:56:51
Speaker
I just, it was just really hard. I couldn't get past it. um And again, happy ending on that one. I mean, she's doing really well. guy's in prison for life. You know, it all ended up really well. But it just, I spend a lot of time, like I said, praying, like, God, like, when it's time for me to be done, you're going to have to, like, literally hit me on the head with the frying pan because I'm just going to be too dumb.
00:57:12
Speaker
And I'll sit here and suffer forever. and I really felt like that was it. It was like, Megan, like, it's okay. But there was so much guilt. I felt like, Am I just giving up on what I'm supposed to be doing?
00:57:23
Speaker
Like, I just really had a hard time. But, um, it was the right decision because you can't, I was at a point where I knew, like, at some point, I didn't ever think I'd be unfair to a ah suspect. I didn't think I'd ever, um, you know, do anything that, like, tarnished my integrity. i didn't think I'd ever be unfair suspect.
00:57:46
Speaker
but I knew that like me personally, like I, it was dumb to just, just let myself eat myself alive like that for, you know, for much longer. So I switched agencies and then I jumped into the fugitive side of things, which is really great mental health wise, because now I get to go basically find all these guys that committed these crimes and it's really nice. And I just don't have, a have a lot of detachment,
00:58:12
Speaker
you know, from the cases mental health wise. And I know, you know, I know what they did, but, um, I'm still in the spot where like, i can go find him. I can bring him to justice, but I'm able to, I don't have the anger. Like I'm just treating with respect and we can, we can just, um, do that side of things. So it's good. And maybe I'll return. I've, I'm still a forensic interviewer. i still kept that certification. I still help with some of the other cases, but it's not constantly something that I'm immersed in. So,
00:58:40
Speaker
Yeah, I felt i had a really hard time. I felt like I was weak for leaving it I felt selfish. I felt like I was abandoning my community in a way, you know, so it was a lot, but it was it was tough.
00:58:53
Speaker
Well, let me let me ask you this. You say feeling weak and feeling some guilt. Over the last few months, there's been some stuff that I've been working through with my, you know, on my own with my own therapist and stuff. And one of the things that it came to is Well, we all know that law enforcement's really good at compartmentalizing, or at least those of us that deal with trauma and, you know, this kind of the trauma we go through.
00:59:18
Speaker
And I and I asked my my therapist, i'm like, why do I feel guilt? Because there's so many things that I can't remember, like I've done so much in my career and I've had friends that I've worked with and and cops that I've worked with or people come up to me and I can't remember one, who they are or what it was that I did.
00:59:42
Speaker
And I feel guilt for that. I mean, ultimately, the response that I was given, i guess, is ah is a way that is supposed to kind of comfort me. But I still feel like to me that there's some guilt there.
00:59:57
Speaker
But I know it's also my brain's way of of coping and protecting myself. Dude, let's... Yes. No, let's talk about that because i had to like get some guts and ask people if they felt that way. Cause I, in the same way, like I, my, our brains are so and incredibly merciful to us. I feel like, like there's so many things you just can't,
01:00:23
Speaker
hold right and so i've had the same experiences as you where don't remember um it's just complete blank like i had i had a case just recently where they they tried to call me it was out it was out of state i did an agency assist and i'm like i'm sure it sounded to the da that i didn't really want to travel But it wasn't that. I just genuinely had no memory of it.
01:00:49
Speaker
And I felt so bad because they're like, well, she remembers you. And I'm like, I'm so glad she does. But like, I can only hold so much. And unless I see my reports, I'm not going to be able to tell you.
01:01:00
Speaker
and then when I got the reports, I remembered a little, but they they wanted to know other things. And I was like, i God help me. I said, i just can't. I'm sorry. I can't ah can't remember. So I think that that's trauma brain, i think, is a thing. and um Yeah, no, I've i've definitely experienced that as well.
01:01:19
Speaker
Well, that's good to know. I mean, haven't really said that to anybody but you at this point. My wife, my sister, my sister's kind of very similar too because she's done a bunch of tours overseas, well, a couple of tours and blah, blah, blah, but similar because she was military police. And we've actually just recently had that same conversation. And she's like, no, it's the same thing. So it makes sense, but to me it just seems...
01:01:43
Speaker
I'm trying, I'm still in the, in the working it out that it's not my, like, I'm not just, you know, it's the cop out. Like, oh, that's just me, you know, so. No, there's like a whole two year stretch around the time my sister died that I don't remember. And to be honest with you, and I, I don't know how many of my friends I've said this to, but I was afraid to go back to homecoming events at college because I was afraid i wouldn't remember people and things that we did because I just,
01:02:12
Speaker
I was in such a state of survival mode that, I mean, legitimately, I can't free recall so many things from those years. There's so many things.
01:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she died, and then I had another friend from college that helped me get through that death, die a year almost to the day she died. So there's just this whole space where, so it wasn't just police work.
01:02:34
Speaker
like So it's definitely a thing. Well, let's yeah, that's good to know. because Yeah, you're not alone. you know and i'm I'm sure there's things that you remember that we've been through that I don't.
01:02:47
Speaker
i would we Almost 20 years. I remember the foot pursuit where the taxi jumped in and saved Oh, I do remember that one.
01:02:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, but that was like five blocks. Actually, Actually, it's funny you bring that up because in the episode that I just did where I was trying to explain this whole show that I'm trying to do and that that name, ah Yard Sale.
01:03:13
Speaker
I don't know if you ever... knew or called me yard sale, but they put the sticker on my flashlight. But in that foot pursuit, because that was a long time ago and we were still carrying the old Motorola flip phones and I lost my, lost that phone in that foot pursuit. Actually, we even went running by ah couple of, yeah, you and another deputy were on another stop when I went running by. I lost my phone. I lost my flashlight.
01:03:41
Speaker
Yeah. yeah but i suck go i so Yeah, i showed up on that, and then the taxi guy just comes out of nowhere. I'm like, heck yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:03:52
Speaker
Because, yeah, you bring that. I kind of forgot about that. But, yeah, I made that stop, and started chasing the guy, and I run by, and you guys are on a stop. And I'm like, hey, yelling at you guys to come help me. I remember that now, yeah.
01:04:06
Speaker
That was a good one. ah Well, i'm glad that, you know, the heavy stuff that we can kind of giggle about some things. um So let's just take a 90 degree. think we've kind of covered how this career's pretty much changed you just personally.
01:04:21
Speaker
How is it? How is it impacted? Because you have a You have a and maybe we'll cover this in another episode. Like we've already talked. How is it affected you and your family?
Family and Community Support
01:04:30
Speaker
Because you have a whole yours is different than most.
01:04:33
Speaker
Your story, your family story. hmm. So you mean like my immediate family being married to a cop? That's part of it, yeah. But, I mean, just in general, like raising kids and how has that been good or bad? And then, yeah, being married to a cop.
01:04:51
Speaker
First of all, I and i just want to say, like, yeah, there's there's been some negative effects of this job. but I would not, like, never, in i wouldn't change a second. Like, I'm proud of...
01:05:02
Speaker
this job, I love this job, I'm so, I feel very blessed to be part of it, so even with all that, like, that part of it is my cross to carry, and I'm fine with that, but I'm, I love this job, I love the people that I've met, both on, both law enforcement and citizens, I love helping my community, so I just want to make that very clear, but, um, oh gosh, yeah, I'm a complete paranoid cop mom, I try really hard to rein that in with my kids, um, but I'm, I try to be, thankfully, i have some experience talking to different age kids so i'm able to talk to mine on an age appropriate level about just why we do things the way we do and um you know like my oldest that none of my kids have uh social media my oldest is going to be 18 in like two weeks he just bought a smartphone he's not on social media um he's very they know why because i've i've shared with them obviously not details but just in general some of the cases that i've worked
01:05:57
Speaker
Um, there are certain things we don't go to. There are certain things I don't let them do. um but you, I also think I've tried to do a good job tempering that because, you know, my dad and my mom were both very strict.
01:06:13
Speaker
And there was a lot of things I didn't get to do, i think, just out of fear. And I totally understand that. But it kind of made me grow up kind of afraid of the world. And I don't want my kids.
01:06:24
Speaker
And again, i know why they did what they did. They're just trying to protect me. But I don't want my kids to grow up that way as well. So um I think I just... as a cop mom, I mean, I'm never without a gun and that's just be given, but I have conversations with my kids about, you know, paying attention and about, you know, why I don't want them to go to this particular like community event or why I don't want, um, this person to spend over, why I don't want them to spend the night, you know, right in with this person. And there's just things that I'm, uh, listen, there's things we have. And, and,
01:07:02
Speaker
You know, I have three beautiful girls and the ages are are significantly different, but they get mad because my wife and I, we don't let the girls go have sleepovers either. And they they always ask why.
01:07:13
Speaker
And I've shared stories, you know, that as much as I can. um And I got one kid that just doesn't believe it's going to happen. But yeah, you don't have to go sleepover anywhere.
01:07:24
Speaker
ah If you if anything, they can come here because I know it's safe. It's controlled. Yeah. yeah So I giggle that you say that because we do the exact same thing. No, I mean, it's definitely shaped how raise my kids, but I'm also very conscientious of like,
01:07:40
Speaker
you know, and again, I'm not trash talking to my parents by any stretch of the imagination, but there's definitely, i understand why they did what they did, but you know, you try to do better, right. When you're, when you're the parent. And so there's just, I try to, I don't want them to be afraid.
01:07:54
Speaker
Like I sent my oldest on a trip to Ecuador and i mean, part of it, i was super comfortable. Cause I'm like, I know enough people that if I needed to land a black Hawk on your head, I probably could do it with, we could just do a bad boys too. And it'd be totally fine.
01:08:06
Speaker
But, um, He needed to experience that, and so those are really hard things. um But, but still yeah, it's definitely shaped I've raised my kids. um Well, good.
01:08:19
Speaker
How has it been being married to cop? And as far my husband, like, I really couldn't imagine being married to somebody who wasn't a cop. That's just my perspective.
01:08:31
Speaker
And resume after some technical difficulties. We should be back. So... Okay. so what i was saying is that you know, I just didn't want my, I don't want kids growing up being afraid of stuff. Right. But, um, so I ended up letting my oldest, I, in fact, I kind of pushed him to do it. I sent him to Ecuador with a school trip.
01:08:49
Speaker
And part of it was that I really thought about it. And I realized that if I really needed to, I know enough people between the federal government and the state that I could land a black hawk.
01:09:00
Speaker
If I could bad boys too, if I needed to, be like, yeah, the van, everybody, no, don't ask me any questions. But, um, But so, but I do, it has shaped how I become a mom and I definitely have a lot of conversations with them and there's certain things we don't do and, um, and they know why. And I think that that's important because I think what kept me from resenting my parents from not letting me do things is my dad always explained to me why he didn't want me doing things and I just got right. I might not have agreed, but at least understood.
01:09:27
Speaker
But then as far as having ah cop husband, like for me, I really don't know how I could not have a cop husband.
01:09:38
Speaker
Just my perspective, like he just gets it. um But yeah, it's definitely like, have to be really careful. Like we worked opposites for, oh my gosh, like 17 years until we switched jobs. That's another reason that I switched to agencies was just because that was a possibility.
01:09:58
Speaker
that we actually have days off together, so, um, yeah, like, I mean, in one sense, you can never really get away from work, and so that's kind of hard, but on the other side of things, like, like, when I was going through that whole child abuse case, like, he, he knew, like, he just got it but to the extent that he could, I mean, I didn't tell him all the details, i tried to protect him from it, um, you know, secondary trauma-wise, but, uh,
01:10:23
Speaker
I didn't have to, he knew. And I remember there was like a long before that there was this mess as my first ever CCM case, the child sexual abuse material case from ICAC. And there was something like 50,000 images. know, at that time you had to go through them one by one. And it was just like this horrible long process.
01:10:40
Speaker
And there were days I came home and he would try to come hug me and they'd be like, dude, I like and literally need to go stand in the shower and wash this off me for a while. And I remember thinking to myself, like, thank God I'm married to a cop because if this wasn't a cop, he wouldn't, maybe he'd think I was cheating on him or I didn't want anything to do with him. And Jason understands that, that kind of stuff because he's worked it We've gotten to work a lot of cases together. It's been really cool.
01:11:06
Speaker
Um, so that's fun. And it's interesting. Cause like now I'm doing all the stuff he used to do as far as fugitive and special response team and stuff like that. And he's doing all the stuff I used to do. And so it's, it's pretty cool that way. And no, it's been, I think it's good. We, um, we tend not to worry too much about each other. There's only been, I think one time, well, two times I can think of that. We've been together. We've been married. We've been married 19. We've been together almost whole time. I've been a cop.
01:11:36
Speaker
that he was truly worried about me, that i at least that he expressed. So I think it's good. We trust each other's abilities, and um I think we just sort of get it. Like, i I know when he comes home, like, just by his actions, but what kind of a day it's been, and he's the same with me, and I think it just works.
01:11:57
Speaker
Are the kids good that way too? Like they, you, you've had enough talks and they kind of understand that sometimes mom comes home and it's leave me alone for a few. to decompress, take that shower, wash the nafty off.
01:12:09
Speaker
yeah I'll be back in a few. kids don't give a rip man like you know this like so my my my oldest he will be canonized upon his day he is a saint he is just the best like most helpful chill introverted kid he's just solid like he will he gets it like he knows um and he can sense when i need a little extra help or whatever and i'll tell him a little bit now like i won't tell him a ton because he's almost he's almost an adult But I have that big gap, right? So the others are five and seven and they don't get, man, they do not care.
01:12:42
Speaker
Like I will come home from doing the cool, like when I got flashbang certified, I was so excited. I was like, you know, I'm only through explosives and we threw smoke and they were just like, that's great. Can I have a cheese stick? Like, you know, they don't care.
01:12:54
Speaker
So on one side of it though, like it keeps you really humble. You're like, you know what? They don't give, they don't care. They just care that I'm here. yeahp And it just reminds me, right? Like, But, like, my middle one now, he'll be like, especially when we do these operations, he'll be like, Mom, how many bad guys did you catch today?
01:13:11
Speaker
And I'll be like, mm, like, two. I'll be like, Mom, five. You got to go for five. Well, he'll give me a hard time. But most of the time, they don't care. They keep me – they remind me that, like, my job is Mom.
01:13:22
Speaker
Yeah. How was it, especially, i know how hard it was just being a one cop family to get kids to school, to sports, to parent teacher conferences, all of that stuff. How was it for you guys? I know you said you guys worked opposites, which to been terrible for the relationship, but how was it?
01:13:43
Speaker
Uh, it's funny now, like we're we're off on weekends together and I'm like, why are you always in front of the drawer that I need to be in? Like we're trying to get used. No, uh, dude, it's bananas. Um, we are super lucky because both of our agencies that we've worked for have been really supportive and helpful, um, to us where it comes to that. And otherwise we couldn't.
01:14:06
Speaker
We couldn't do it. And then we're also very lucky that we just have such a village of friends and people, that we trust that love my children that will help us, you know, it, so we're very, what I, there's one big thing I miss about the sheriff's office is that I was kind of the department auntie, like everybody's kids came to my house and I watched everyone's kids and and loved that so much, but that's, we just took care of each other. You know, I, I re helped watch a lot of kids while I was raising my own and,
01:14:35
Speaker
it's the same thing now, you know, now that I need to help, people are there to help, and so, um, it's crazy, and every week I have to sit down and sort of, like, figure everything out, because they're all, everybody's in sports and doing all these things, too, on top of it, and we, now my littles do a hybrid, so we homeschool, and we,
01:14:51
Speaker
taking my school twice a week. So that's a whole nother element of planning, but oh it's complete chaos, bananas. But somehow but by the grace of God and the help of people that care about us, like we make it work.
01:15:07
Speaker
Well, that's awesome. Yeah, no, like I, like said, just the one cop family stuff's hard. So I can't imagine the the two cop family, but you You bring up, you know, all the friends that.
01:15:20
Speaker
You have mean, they're all the same friends I have. But you end up building that big family just in general, like. And there might not even be cops. Like we're friends with the wives or the husbands that are cops, but then their wives or husbands get involved and they're babysitting and then their aunties and their uncles. And you just got all these extensions and nobody really truly knows.
01:15:41
Speaker
Kids are like, who's that uncle who, you know? So, yeah, I like that. It's it's nice. and It's especially when I was going through my divorce from my first marriage.
01:15:53
Speaker
Yeah, when I was living at the yellow apartments, you know, it was really nice having that. That was that was a big help being ah a single dad. I mean, it was only three days or yeah three days a week at that time because I couldn't really have the kids when I was working because I was on nights.
01:16:08
Speaker
So kind of hard. um But yeah, there was a lot of times even getting called out, having to be like, hey, can I drop the kid off? like I got to go work. You know, small agencies, you get called out, especially because at the time I was I was running dogs.
01:16:21
Speaker
So. And it's hard to find people that will do that at the drop of a hat. So I was always grateful to be that person that, you know, i was like, yeah, bring them over. I'll wake up. I don't care. I'm like, I don't mind. One day I'll need it. And hopefully someone will be there for me. And it just kind of always.
01:16:38
Speaker
it's just, and all what you put out, you get back, right? And it always just sort of works out. Like, we just had this whole situation where, oh my gosh, like, one of our friends is just getting through this massive, terrible surgery, said to a second one, and I was trying to, like, help that way, and then Jason had a little medical emergency. He's he's fine now, but, like, his partner's bringing us food. Meanwhile, i found out my other friends have an issue with...
01:17:04
Speaker
going on so i'm like taking care of them and it's just is this big circular thing like people are taking care of us so i can take care of them so we can take care of each other and so it's definitely something i hope everybody has cop or not with their children because you really just need well and with ah even without children i mean shes just need need to be able accept the help because lord knows like i couldn't do any of this by myself even though i would i would love to think i could like you can't so Right, right.
01:17:34
Speaker
No, and for a long time, you know, like like my end, I didn't have, it was especially after, you know, the divorce, um you know, Bree and I, we didn't have family around. It was just us and the kids and then that that extended family, that law enforcement family. So, and I think you're in that same kind of boat.
01:17:53
Speaker
is your Yeah, so it's it's hard not having just family close. Now I have family close and sometimes it's like, just want to lock the door and make sure they can't walk in. My mom's here.
01:18:05
Speaker
Double-edged sword. but No, I get it. No, my mom's here now. Jason's parents are great junction, but they're older and it's harder for them to drive at night and on the interstate and things like that. But, but that is one thing, you know, about law enforcement, you know, that you just have, you do have those people. Like when you know that Jason had a very serious medical situation 2020, you know,
01:18:26
Speaker
and I called dispatch had to call an ambulance for him and I'm not trying to add him or anything so I'm gonna say too much but what I will say is that I didn't have to call soul that call went out over the radio everyone knew was my address everyone knew I just had a baby so I just had my third my house was full of cop lives and they took care of my kids my neighbor she's a in law enforcement she came across the street was like I saw the ambulance. what do you need? was like, I need to get Aiden to school.
01:18:54
Speaker
And just everyone was taken care of. And I had to worry about anything like zero um until I got back from the hospital with him. And that, I mean, those are things like, and then shoot, like one of my commander's wives, like when I was in labor with, with my first, she sat with me literally
Community Bonds in Tragedy
01:19:09
Speaker
the whole time. And then another one of the officer's wives was there both times with the little ones. And so just those kinds of things,
01:19:17
Speaker
And I don't know that they're completely unique to law enforcement, but definitely law enforcement. um it's It's part of law enforcement. rightly We just take care. we do take care of other. We we but do eat our own sometimes. We do take care of each other. When when someone really needs it, like everyone everyone rallies. And it kind of doesn't matter, i think, what the past was or what anything anybody ever said or did. it's just That's just what we do.
01:19:40
Speaker
And that's really special. Well, you know what? you You bring that up. And... and I don't think I've touched on it yet and the in the few episodes that we've done and maybe a little bit with Pete, but you and I both worked with Josh Breshears, who you just lost in the line of duty a few weeks, few weeks ago. of October shit.
01:20:02
Speaker
Tomorrow will be a month. um That one hit home really, really hard for me and it and.
01:20:10
Speaker
No matter.
01:20:13
Speaker
who you liked and who you didn't like and, and who liked you and who didn't and who you haven't talked to in, in when did he leave? 2009. Oh gosh. so much but Yeah. All the people that have reached out to me cause you all knew how close I was. I was one of the few that stayed really close with them because you know, so you move on and and you just stay am in touch with just a few. And I think,
01:20:36
Speaker
You and Jason also stayed in touch with him, not nearly like I did. Yeah, not as you. But but but I knew him when he started in, in you know, a little podunk Rainsley. So I probably knew him the longest.
01:20:54
Speaker
But like you said, all of that doesn't matter what happened, what didn't happen, all of that just coming together and and Being that law enforcement family, like seeing all of that and people reaching out and asking about his family and and stuff like that.
01:21:12
Speaker
it It was a big deal and it was hard. It was hard. um But it was really cool. You know, even just the guys that that, we you know, did know him coming in and being like, yeah, he was one of the few because there was a time for the agency you worked with that the culture was let's try to wash people out when they're going through FTO. And and I got told a story recently where They went through FTO at that time, and for shares was one of those that kind of went, no, you'll be fine but when that, you know, some of the FTOs didn't do that. So it's nice to hear, it's sharing a story along basically what you're explaining.
01:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, there was one time, so i rolled my car, and my oldest, i didn't have my littles yet, but Aiden was, see, he would have been eight. don't know if you remember that, but I rolled my car at the 83, he had lost a tooth at school, and they gave him one of those little tooth necklace things take it home in.
01:22:10
Speaker
And of course, in the rollover and think by the grace of God, nobody was hurt. Everything was fine. It worked out okay. but um But the tooth came out. He lost his tooth. And so I came to work, I think the very next day, because someone had found out about that. And there, my guys had gotten together and pulled together a bunch of change and a note from the tooth fairy.
01:22:31
Speaker
Hey, I heard you lost your tooth. Like, i this stuff, like, I will never, i mean, how sweet, right? Like, I will never... ever forget that when my dad died you know there are people that drove all the way paonia to be there like so i'm sure there's lots of things that happened that were not great like between people and stuff but i honestly garrett like i don't i remember those things like yeah maybe that happened but whatever like but when when everything went to crap like they were still there you know and there's definitely people that's one of the interesting things about law enforcement too like
01:23:04
Speaker
you find out that you can trust certain people with your life, but you can't trust them with everything, with, with everything else, right? Like there's certain little things, right? And so there's definitely people, um you know, now after all these years that I'm way closer to and that I completely trust, um, with everything that maybe it's not the same, but those, even those people that maybe aren't in that smaller circle. And I think that's just natural when you get older too.
01:23:29
Speaker
um I still will never forget like the things that they did for me and my kids and my family when, when we needed it. and if they needed anything, I would be there too. Like it wouldn't matter.
01:23:42
Speaker
That's fair.
01:23:46
Speaker
Um, you know, we've talked a lot about some bad times and, and good times and stuff like that.
Mental Health in Law Enforcement
01:23:52
Speaker
Um, and, uh, one thing that I do think that still while I know your last agency and I don't know too much about your current agency did well on trying to take care of of mental health with their deputies and stuff like that what what kind of things I personally kinda still feel like law enforcement so as a stigma on it like don't talk about it kinda thing you know rub some dirt on it and get back to work what kinda things have you done to take care of your mental health and what
01:24:23
Speaker
changes do you think that, well, let's just start with that first question. kind of things have you done to take care of yours? Well, I mean, it's like I tell my, i teach the academy. I'm really lucky to be to do that. So i always tell my cadets, like, listen, you, all those hobbies and friends you had before you became a cop, if people aren't being a turd to you just because you're a cop, keep those friends outside law enforcement and keep those hobbies used to do because it can be so simple to just sort of let law enforcement become everything that you are. And I kind of disagree with the whole sentiment that like, you know, the job doesn't define you.
01:24:59
Speaker
I don't, I don't like that. And if you're a cop, you better own being a cop. Like it better be, you better have the right personality and the right attitude and you better know what that identity means. I think that's important.
01:25:13
Speaker
But, um, to that end, also, I try really hard to get in circles outside of law enforcement to be with people who are good people that aren't cops. And, um, I, you know, I definitely try to keep my hobbies. Having little kids little hard to do that.
01:25:30
Speaker
Um, but, but I mean, my faith is huge. Like, I don't know how, um, I would get through what I do without my faith, just being able to be part of a church community and to pray and to to really just sort of surrender things I can't control to God.
01:25:51
Speaker
um i work out a lot, which is, you know, it's good for my job. I need to be strong. I'm getting older, so it's even more important, but it's really good for those little brain trolls that like to get into your head. um You know, I just really try to control the control. I try to sleep as well as I can. i eat as well as I can.
01:26:10
Speaker
um and just try to keep things in perspective. Yeah, I don't know. That's probably things I Have you done any kind of that talk therapy? Do you find that useful? Or do you find actually being more kind of physically active is more beneficial?
01:26:28
Speaker
No, I have done, i have done some therapy. Um, I probably should do it more frequently. Just, you know, I think all of us could benefit from that when you find somebody that you really like, but that's definitely helped a lot. Like our debriefs that we have done, um, at my previous agency.
01:26:43
Speaker
Um, I had some people that I would go to on the peer support team and talk to them and just off gas things. Um, you know, we had code for counseling and they were phenomenal. Um, I loved, um, actually loved being able to go talk to them.
01:26:58
Speaker
Um, so yeah, definitely those things are, they're huge. Sometimes it's just nice have a third party who's completely removed from all that, but that still sort of understands law enforcement, be able to tell you that like, Hey, you're not crazy. You're the fact that you can't remember, you know, two years of your life. That's normal for people that are in your situation.
01:27:18
Speaker
but You know, um, yeah. Explain it. like you've You've brought it up a couple of times. I know what it is, and I'm sure a very significant chunk of the people that might hear this know what it is, but I know some won't. What's a debrief?
01:27:30
Speaker
Oh, debrief. Oh, so a debrief is just after a critical incident, you'll get together. Everyone that was part of that will kind of come into a room, usually with a counselor, um and everyone gets kind of a chance to sort of discuss the incident from their perspective.
01:27:47
Speaker
And then just the counselor will kind of facilitate that. And it's completely confidential, but you're just able to sort of work things out through that. And then if you need extra assistance afterwards, then they'll provide you those resources and stuff. So, you know, they're great as long as people are willing to talk.
01:28:03
Speaker
Um, sometimes I had a hard time because depending on who was in there, i would feel like protective over them. Like I didn't want to give them, I wanted to, it wasn't even that I was consciously doing it here, but I would be like, okay, well, I'm not going to cry because I, I'm, I'm being protective of this person.
01:28:19
Speaker
um but for the most part, even if that was the case, like they were very helpful to be able to kind of like verbalize what you went through what you saw and have somebody help you process it.
01:28:33
Speaker
um
01:28:38
Speaker
Now, like I said, I kind of believe that we still are kind of stuck in not worrying so much about cops, law enforcement in general's mental health. and Do you share that same kind of feeling or do you see, I guess, a different point of view?
01:28:55
Speaker
um i know the agencies that I've worked in, you know, I went through a critical incident and I had some issues there with that. later on and I kind of had to work through my own stuff I felt like so that kinda pointed me in a different direction on my way of thinking of of mental health.
01:29:12
Speaker
What do you think? How how do you feel? Yeah, I think it I think it's starting to change, but I think we have a ways to go. on I think like my previous agency, we really started developing trust with, with code four and with the fact that that stuff was confidential, um, that was happening. And I think that that was a really good step in the right direction.
01:29:37
Speaker
ah current agency has kind of the same stuff in place with peer support and everything. Although, um, I really haven't had a opportunity, like a chance or a reason to sort of tap into that there, mostly because um,
01:29:50
Speaker
one of a four man team and they, well five, including our boss and they, I'm like their little sister. So they keep me laughing by making fun of me constantly. times So I really don't need a but I, yeah, I mean, i think that there's a lot more to mental health and just providing confidential counseling.
01:30:06
Speaker
Like i think a lot of law enforcement officers stress, comes from what, how things are dealt with internally, whether it has to do with a critical incident or just day-to-day morale operations. And so I think that's a piece of it.
01:30:20
Speaker
I think really making sure that you are allowing your officers to put family first, that you're providing, um, like opportunities for them to work out.
01:30:32
Speaker
that you are encouraging healthy lifestyles. And I think there's just so much more to it than just sort of slapping a confidential counselor's name on a poster and saying, call them if you need help.
01:30:43
Speaker
There has to be this culture of, hey, we really care about you. We want to take care of you. And that that's going to have to have supervisors really knowing what's going on with their guys and giving a crap about that and not writing it off. Like if somebody is not performing the way that they usually do, like why are we asking them?
01:30:59
Speaker
You know, I think that that culture starts with everybody. And then that trust has to develop. And I think again, like it's not, I think we're going in the right direction. I think people are starting to get it, but there's just kind like what I mentioned with, with people that you deal with on calls, there's this whole human experience that's going on. And I think that agencies need to be aware of that and sensitive to that so that they can gain enough trust for people to feel comfortable to say like, Hey, this, I'm not okay right now.
01:31:29
Speaker
I think it's, good to we're getting there, but. Slowly, slowly, but I guess I agree. it's It's still, still seems like it's a far way off, especially now that I'm kind of working on a different side of of law enforcement and seeing that secondhand trauma, if you if if you'll give it that, um you know, that prosecutors go through.
01:31:53
Speaker
I mean, they're not the boots on the ground going through investigations and and dealing with the victims in the moment and all that stuff. um and But I think we can even probably do a little bit better there. Mind you, my my office does have a peer support team and stuff too.
01:32:10
Speaker
But I think we need to, and it's stuff that I've never thought of because I've always been you know a patrol cop. I think we could do just better in general. Even the whole world could better, but yeah, so.
01:32:23
Speaker
I think the other really, well, I mean, prosecutors, mean, everyone's on scene, you know, i always worry about jurors when they leave jury trials, um, and our dispatchers. And they, I tried, and I, I definitely could have been better at this, but like,
01:32:39
Speaker
they're answering these calls and then they never, they get a disco that were clear and there was a rest or whatever, but they never know what happens. And then they have to sit there and some of them are good with that. Like they, but a lot of them aren't like, there was a couple of Garfield that I would try to remember to call afterward. bere Like, Hey, I just want to let you know that that kid's okay.
01:32:57
Speaker
I just want to let you know that like that, that woman was okay. Thanks for getting me there. And then they were comfortable enough to call me and be like, hey, can you tell me what happened with that? And and even following up on court cases and stuff like that has to be I could never do that job.
01:33:12
Speaker
I would never be able to I'd be able to help on the phone, but then to not know what happened afterward. That would drive me crazy. And I think like we we. we forget like what a burden is on them too.
01:33:25
Speaker
But everyone, everyone that touches a case and mean, that the child abuse case that rippled so far, like everyone that even read the newspaper articles and that was so watered down. Like the prosecutor that dealt with that, she was, she had a really hard time. Like I spent both of that and there were two of them, both of them did and just trying to take care of them and each other. So yeah, there's there's this whole other thing. It's not just about us as cops. It's just everyone else that, that touches or sees this.
01:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I think as a society as a whole, we just I think that's partially why we still have so much crime and people don't get rehabilitated. There's just not as ah whole country.
01:34:01
Speaker
We really aren't good at mental health. Right. um I guess on that note, where we're just kind of talking about the whole you know society in general. What do you think?
01:34:14
Speaker
Do you think that we, and I guess it'll be more of a transition from mental health, but to just community-wise, law us in law enforcement, and I mean everybody from you know Department of Human Services, dispatch, patrol officers, prosecutor, you know all of us. what How do you feel the relationship is and our current society with the community and the people we serve?
01:34:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think it's strained, um especially in certain areas. I think you've got little pockets um where you know, like, they're going to be a little less friendly to law enforcement versus they're going to be more
Community Relations and Understanding
01:34:52
Speaker
supportive. But I think that, yeah, I think our relationship, and it's a pendulum, but I do think our relationship's broken down.
01:35:01
Speaker
But I also... understand that there's a lot of things that have caused that to happen. um and it's really just going to take us continuing to go out and do our job and just really like, you know, every interaction we have with somebody in the public is a chance for us to prove them wrong. That we're to show them that we're who we say we are to show them that we're with the good guys.
01:35:25
Speaker
And even if it's something as small as asking them to shut down their music or asking them to move their accident out of the street or something like that, like we, the way we treat a person today can ripple to how they behave to an officer in a year.
01:35:41
Speaker
And I think we just really can't, we really can't minimize the importance that those, those interactions have on our community.
01:35:53
Speaker
And I guess along those lines too, I think we've, I feel like we've maybe i guess ah probably a bad word, but we've been kind of sheltered. Like we come from a community that's very supportive of law enforcement, all of us in general.
01:36:05
Speaker
um
01:36:08
Speaker
Is there something that I guess I've ran into talking to people you know all the time and you you end up explaining what we do and why we do what we do now that you have a platform right now?
01:36:21
Speaker
Is there something that you wish the communities, anybody that might listen to this kind of understood? Like where we're coming from and what we're trying to do and and the goals that we're looking for, especially with the way things have been over the last, you know, we'll say 20 years since we've been in law enforcement.
01:36:39
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I, I wish the community understood that we really aren't hiding cops, bad behavior, like the but good cops. Nobody is more upset at a bad cop than a good cop.
01:36:53
Speaker
Um, and there's a lot of reasons why those, those things sometimes don't get dealt with the way that the public thinks that they should. um I wish they understood that we're not the only piece of the criminal justice puzzle, that we're the face they see, but we can't control the courts, we can't control juries, we can't control jails, we can't control prisons.
01:37:17
Speaker
They have to really understand the legislative process and that we're doing the best we can out here, and we're getting asked to do it with less. um I wish they understood that we're human and that we don't have superpowers when we put on that badge and we are them out here just really doing the best we can and that the vast majority of us really care deeply about our communities. Like I i love my community. I love people and I'm really doing the best I can, even when I screw up.
01:37:47
Speaker
You know, i none of us, not none of us, the vast majority of us aren't intending to screw things up for people. We aren't intending to hurt feelings. We aren't intending to cause any harm, but sometimes things don't go the way we want them to or the way we think they should, or even the way, you know, you know, we investigatively thought they were going to go and we, we can't be perfect.
01:38:10
Speaker
We try. and that's not to say I don't think we should be held to a higher standard because I think we should. but we're still human and we we aren't perfect. And I wish they understood how much we really need them. We need them to,
01:38:23
Speaker
help us and to support us and to pray for us and to um call us when they need us and to also take safety and some responsibility into their own hands too, because we want to be everywhere, but we can't.
01:38:36
Speaker
I mean, we've all had that helpless feeling when we know we're 10 minutes out and there's somebody banging down a door and we're just praying they can't get through or that that person can fight or that we can just get there faster, that God will lift us up and set us in their front yard. It's a terrible feeling.
01:38:51
Speaker
Um, So yeah, those are some things. And you've worked in a big county, so you've had those 30 minute, 40 minute plus, you know, code runs where you're like, oh man, I need to hurry and get there.
01:39:04
Speaker
But there's a governor on this car, which is keeping me from driving faster, which is probably a good idea. So, but yeah, no, I mean, um i guess along that, that, that same thing, sharing what you wish everybody understood, what do you,
01:39:22
Speaker
What do you think gives hope for the future of policing, the justice system and just society in general? Well, a lot of things, but I kind of want to answer the other side of that question because i know it was on your questions too. Some things that law enforcement need to remember about the community. Is that okay?
01:39:38
Speaker
Because I think this is important because this is not all on them. Like there's a reason that they don't trust us. Like there's a reason. there's I think we need to understand that, yeah, what that goes back to what I said before when I was opening my badge front of my dad.
01:39:52
Speaker
All our interactions matter. And what one guy does in one big city is gonna make the that gets put on the big screen is going to affect how so many people in the country view us, right, wrong, or indifferent. We have to understand that that makes sense whether we agree with it or not. Like we that we we have to sort of look at it from their perspective, number one. So I think we need to remember what they're seeing. I think the other thing we need to remember is that if we're doing our job really well, crime's never gonna touch them.
01:40:21
Speaker
They're not gonna understand our job. So it's a double edged sword, right? Like we do a really good job in our community. They don't feel like they need to lock their doors. They think everything's under great. They've never interacted with a cop before. They don't know what our job is like.
01:40:33
Speaker
So ah they have no idea. And it's not their fault because they don't know. And so we do sort of have a responsibility to explain to them some of these ins and outs and things like that because we want them to understand.
01:40:45
Speaker
I think we also need to remember that we are the community. We're not any we're not any better. we just have a different responsibility. And I think we have to always go back to that. Like, Hey, we need them.
01:40:56
Speaker
If they're not calling us, if we can't trust them, if they're not giving us tips, if they're not helping us, we're going to have a real hard time. And at the end of the day, these are the people that we're called to, to protect and called to serve. And so we have to remember even those annoying calls when,
01:41:14
Speaker
You know, it's just for us, like they, we have to remember like to us, it might be an annoying call. They're calling because they they have a ah problem with, you know, their neighbors taking their water. That's a major problem to them.
01:41:26
Speaker
They don't know that we just left a double fatal accident on the interstate where somebody lost their life. And we know that in the grand scheme of things, that's probably a much more bigger problem, much more final thing for somebody like we're dealing, but they don't know that.
01:41:40
Speaker
And so when we're responding to that water dispute, right, and I say this because it's happened before, and everybody's pissed off, and you're upset because you're like, do you not know where I just came from? Of course they have no idea.
01:41:52
Speaker
To them, that's the biggest problem, and it is a real problem for them, and I think we just kind of need to remember that. Yeah. And we're going again after some more technical difficulties, but hey, we're back and we'll get started again.
01:42:07
Speaker
So Megan, if you wanted to continue where you left off, we talked again before since we're starting the next day again, but that's okay. That's okay. No, I'm just gonna talk about, you you remember this one.
01:42:21
Speaker
We had that arsonist and rifle and set the a bunch of businesses on fire. And at one point we had a vehicle description and we were stopping cars without vehicle description. and Um, I always sort of, when I had my gun and my taser would kind of drape my arms over those things to have weapon retention. But this day, everybody was really kind of jacked up, right? We didn't know, um, really what was going on. We had no sense. And so I remember pulling over a car and and think it was a lady inside was like, she rolled on her window and she's like, why do you, why do you look so like me? Why is your hand on your gun? Like, I'm not going to hurt you.
01:42:55
Speaker
And so i you know, realizing that moment, like she doesn't know. And I explained to her, you know, Hey, this is what we've got going on. And whenever I stop a car, man, I'm like, I don't know who's in it.
01:43:06
Speaker
I don't know if you're going to hurt me. You know, you know, you're not going to hurt me, but I don't know you're to, you're not going to hurt me. And you don't know what I'm just coming from too. So took a couple of minutes just to explain that to her. And it's just another, you know, an opportunity, like I said, for us to take those interactions and really sort of make the most out of them when we're able to have the, have the chance.
01:43:28
Speaker
Well, I think you touched on a good point. You know, sometimes we don't know what somebody's gone through in their day and and they don't. You know, the the story who i was talking about yesterday before we had some some issues is when my wife and I first started dating, you know, I'm on the phone with her and she's she's in a state where you're not supposed to be on the phone when you're driving.
01:43:48
Speaker
You know, it is what it is. um But she kind of started going off on the cop and we had just started dating. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't you don't know what he just left. Like, why why why? Just be respectful.
01:44:00
Speaker
You know you're in the wrong. Like, whether you agree with it or not, you know you're in the wrong. You know, knock it off. and And that kind of put a whole different perspective, like, you know, a different set of lenses on it for her. So when I explained it that way, like, he could have just left an accident. He could have just watched somebody die or, you know, who knows what. So, you know, it it enlightened her. So and I think we all need to think about that. Nobody knows what happened.
01:44:23
Speaker
So. Yeah, i mean, that's just in law enforcement. mentioned It's in our day-to-day interactions with people. Like, just, you know, you don't know. You don't know. And a lot of times people's attitudes have zero own to do with you. So.
01:44:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, and and our attitudes might have zero to do with that person until, you know, just like anybody, until somebody says the wrong thing or, you know, it is what it is.
Reflections and Gratitude
01:44:46
Speaker
um Well, here, I'll ask you this question as we get ready to yeah kind of head out here. Yeah.
01:44:53
Speaker
What would Megan today tell Megan 23 years ago when she got that nice shiny badge that her dad was so proud of?
01:45:06
Speaker
i would tell her, you don't you don't have to be your dad. um I would tell her... as my daughter's walking in to keep my priorities straight and to not let, um, the job ever, I think it's great, more important than my children. Okay.
01:45:24
Speaker
okay Hi there. Cause it's easy to do. Um, it's easy to get distracted. I would tell her that this job is going to hurt, um, in ways that you can never,
01:45:37
Speaker
really understand until you've gone through it, but that it's, it's worth it. Every, every second's really worth it. And that, um, just to have, have faith and not be afraid. i mean, there's certain cases where I'd be like, Hey, on that one, don't do that. and that one You know, do that.
01:45:56
Speaker
name But, um, I think those are the big things. and Just guard your heart, you know, guard your heart. plan i mean
01:46:08
Speaker
I'm tasting fake muffins. I'm sorry. Okay, go i'll be right I think it's great. make it a family affair i Family is important. Family is important to all of us. You know, we're one of the big reasons for doing this, like we've talked before, is is this isn't just, we're not just cops. We're not just heroes. We don't just put on um on a uniform and put on a badge and hop in a patrol car and and that's not just us. Like, we we are human.
01:46:33
Speaker
Family is really important to us. We go and we do that to protect our family, to protect our community, to, you know, make a living for our family. So it's important.
01:46:47
Speaker
And I'm glad, I'm glad that that was, it's cute. I loved it. you Mine are upstairs bumping around. So it's probably time for me to go, to go also. But Megan, thank you for joining two nights in a row. This one was a little bit briefer, but I'm glad we got to do a good kind of closing and and send you off.
01:47:04
Speaker
You are awesome. You're a rock star and definitely one of the mentors I've grown up with. So I appreciate you and thank you very much. Oh, ditto. I just absolutely adore you and your friendship. I'm so grateful for it and your family and ah love you to pieces and I'm just hopefully something that I said can help somebody or be relatable. So Yeah, I think it will.
01:47:27
Speaker
Thank you. I'll catch up with you later. Okay, sounds good. Hello again.