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2: Deputy - Pete DePrez
66 Plays8 months ago
Pete DePrez – Show Notes
Meet Pete DePrez, founder of the ASM Foundation — an organization dedicated to helping veterans and first responders heal from the stress and trauma that come with serving others. After years in law enforcement and SWAT, Pete faced his own battle with PTSD and discovered powerful tools like breathwork, cold and heat exposure, and mindfulness to rebuild his life. Now, he’s sharing those same practices to help others find healing and resilience on their own journeys.
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Transcript
Introduction & Catching Up
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Both Sides of the Badge, the podcast that explores the human side of law enforcement. Here we step beyond the headlines and uniforms to hear the real stories of those who serve in our justice system. Just like a badge, there is a side you see and a side you don't.
00:00:19
Speaker
Get ready to hear the challenges, triumphs, and humanity on both sides of the badge.
00:00:27
Speaker
There we are. Episode two with Pete. Pete, it's been a long time, Matt. How are I am well, sir. It has been a long time. To give some reference, it was January of 2020 that I left the agency and probably i was on four months of FMLA before that, so ah probably I probably haven't seen you since August of 2019. Yeah, that sounds about right. lot has happened since 2019 into 2020 alone.
Pete's Health & Career Path
00:01:09
Speaker
Shoot, I tore up my knee. I was down mostly of 19. I ended up having 14 surgeries. Yeah. How did how'd you do that? you flip over in a river? No, but I have done that a few times, right? I'm sure we'll get into that.
00:01:25
Speaker
No, i just I just one day stood up or bent down. I don't know. All I know is it hurt. I tore my meniscus, flipped it inside my joint and couldn't walk. And four surgeries later with a cadaver meniscus and 18 months off the road, I went back to work.
00:01:41
Speaker
Is it more stable now? Yeah, it's it fine. I mean, it is what it is. But even this summer, I had to have knee surgery, get my meniscus removed out of my other leg.
00:01:54
Speaker
Ugh. to seems to go that way um when they when those joints start to deteriorate it it's usually not just one it seems like one goes and the other goes right doctors have no idea why i keep tearing my meniscuses the ones on the inside uh that's what they me ah Well, we're here.
00:02:20
Speaker
you know what? Six years of slavery. Yeah. but What have you been up to? Let's like let's learn about Pete. Introduce yourself now. My name is Pete Depry.
00:02:31
Speaker
I grew up originally in rural Indiana, kind of right in between Indianapolis and Ohio. um Had a fairly typical experience Childhood, in my folks split when I was young and then did the back and forth between my folks, played sports, was rambunctious.
00:02:56
Speaker
um I can look back now and connect the dots with a lot of what happened professionally for me um to a lot of early childhood head trauma.
00:03:10
Speaker
that I never would have connected the dots on prior to my experience um in in law enforcement, or I would say after my experience in law enforcement. um So I was 18 months old the first time knocked myself out cold, um which would have been 1979.
00:03:28
Speaker
So not that have significant lead um so not not that we have a significant Not that there are more tools.
00:03:40
Speaker
If a child were to do that today, there isn't a a different protocol necessarily for how they would treat that injury. um But back then there was even less. So it was kind of like, all right, just smacked his noggin, be okay.
00:03:53
Speaker
I continued that pattern throughout my life of sustaining fairly significant head trauma and just kind of shrugging it off and continuing to go. So um I spent...
Law Enforcement & Personal Struggles
00:04:07
Speaker
up until 18 I was in, uh, Indiana and then bounced around in college, spent most of my twenties in new England and then moved to Telluride when I was 29, um, and got in in involved with the search and rescue team there.
00:04:27
Speaker
Um, which was one of the best experiences I've ever had. um, Spent three years just as a member of the team and then was invited to ah go to the academy.
00:04:41
Speaker
had to spend a year in the the local jail. um Like I was telling you before we started, one day would be on dispatch 911.
00:04:52
Speaker
And then the next day I would be um working with the inmates, either intake or just general serving meals and doing cell checks and whatnot. um So I did that for a year and then went to the academy, got out of the academy and was with –
00:05:12
Speaker
them until 2016. And then in 2016, I got married to a gal who lived the Roaring Fork Valley and was able to transfer agencies to work for GARCO, which is where I met you, and got involved with SWAT, which was a great experience.
00:05:32
Speaker
um But what came with that was a lot more exposure to um what I now know to be blast trauma. um So large and small explosions, which those explosions um send out a sonic blast wave that is a, it can penetrate bone, but it's absorbed by soft tissue. So our brains are eating a lot of those.
00:05:58
Speaker
And most people do not take those into account. So long story short, had a career that I was really proud of and really loved. I loved going to work every day.
00:06:11
Speaker
It was exciting. Um, I love the people that I was working with. I love the agency. Um, And went from, i probably averaged four to six hours of sleep a night throughout my career and got to a point where um I couldn't stay asleep for more than 10 minutes at a time. had i had an over dependency of on, on alcohol from probably the age of 16 until my late twenties and then kicked the booze and did not drink at all throughout my thirties.
00:06:51
Speaker
Um, started drinking again in my early forties after I couldn't sleep anymore. And the wheels kind of swiftly came off after that. I lost a close childhood friend of mine.
00:07:05
Speaker
um really abruptly and unexpectedly. And i remember coming home from that and talking to my ex-wife and saying, something doesn't feel right. I've lost other friends.
00:07:19
Speaker
um I think when you work in law enforcement for any extended period of time, you inevitably ah get fairly familiar with that sense of loss. And this felt...
00:07:32
Speaker
absolutely crippling. It felt like it it was a feeling of depression that was never going to go away. And it, instead of getting better with time was increasing in magnitude substantially as more time went away.
00:07:48
Speaker
um so i was initially kind of voluntold by some of the, my superiors to, to go, seek help.
00:08:00
Speaker
And i did what I think most people would do, which is go to my GP and explain the symptoms that I was dealing with. And he very quickly explained to me that I had um,
00:08:13
Speaker
um
00:08:16
Speaker
he told me I had PTSD and prescribed me some pills. And so I was initially on Lexapro and Xanax and, uh, was definitely overindulging in the Xanax quickly as,
00:08:33
Speaker
as people tend to do the, the, the effect, uh, wanes with, with time and you develop a tolerance. And so by August of that year, that my, my friend passed away in April and by August, uh,
00:08:51
Speaker
I stepped away from the agency, went on to FMLA for September, October, November, and December. And then by January, when in the agency went out of their way, all the guys went out of their way, trying to help in any way that there could.
00:09:08
Speaker
um and I, I just didn't know how to get out of my own way under those circumstances. So, ah I left in January 2020.
PTSD & Recovery Journey
00:09:22
Speaker
My,
00:09:24
Speaker
wife at the time and I had already filed for divorce. So I'm watching my career dissolve. I'm watching my marriage dissolve. I'm going to lose the house that I was in um Everything's kind of slowly slipping away. And I did not have any agency at the time, or I i felt like I didn't have any agency to reel any of it back in.
00:09:47
Speaker
So I'm just kind of in this paralyzed spot doing anything that I can. And by anything I can, I mean ingesting anything I could to feel better.
00:10:00
Speaker
And that usually came in the form of the pharmaceuticals that I was prescribed and a whole lot of booze. So at my worst, I was drinking, i would wake up in the morning, make coffee, pour bourbon in my coffee, have three or four of those, then start drinking beer go through a twelfth pack of beer, finish off the bottle of bourbon, and pop a couple of the Xanax, and that would buy me maybe three hours of sleep.
00:10:33
Speaker
And then I would wake up and wash and repeat and lived in that state for um about eight or nine months and then sold the house in July.
00:10:45
Speaker
moved into a new place. Um, COVID's taking place at this time. So society's chaotic. Um, there was kind of turmoil everywhere, which allowed me to just hide in, in isolate more and more and more.
00:11:05
Speaker
um thankfully, In October of 2020, I met a neurophysiologist who was working with some buddies of mine that were stationed in Colorado Springs.
00:11:21
Speaker
And she was very focused on the PTSD element as it related to neural inflammation and nervous system ah dysfunction, which...
00:11:34
Speaker
It sounded way too highbrow for me to understand at the time. But essentially, it's it's suggesting that my brain was swollen and my nervous system which regulates everything, was in this hyper state of hyper arousal and the remedy for all the symptoms that I was dealing with was going to come from ultimately, ah detoxing a lot of my system reeling in that inflammation and then, um developing practices that would help to regulate my nervous system.
00:12:15
Speaker
Um, I
00:12:22
Speaker
focused on that for several months, lost another friend um fairly abruptly, and that sent me into ah the the darkest period of time that I've... it it I don't know about you, but...
00:12:44
Speaker
I feel like every time i was on a suicide, which was more regular than I would like it it to have been, the overall sense that I always had and the sentiment that I held was ah that that was a wildly selfish act that the person had performed.
00:13:05
Speaker
I held some resentment that I'm now having to deal with cleaning this person up. um Watching their loved ones being there grieving. um There's a variety of of emotions that surface under those circumstances. But the overwhelming sentiment that I held was that it was an unimaginably selfish ah behavior to – to act on.
00:13:31
Speaker
Let's stay on that for just a second because yeah think I think I've got a little bit, you know, said you weren't clear of lying. You know, before we kind of bounce back to a couple things I'd like to touch on. um you know, I started in 2005 and five I've been on mini suicide just like like tons of them.
00:13:49
Speaker
And I always felt that way how selfish it was. um Like the worst thing, families, crack you know, there's so much that goes into it. And I'm sure anybody listening, anybody fourteen seconds been on a suicide and knows what it's like.
00:14:04
Speaker
But my mindset ended up changing a little um and in 2015 when my mother committed suicide. That that was a ah was a massive change for me.
00:14:15
Speaker
um I mean, I sometimes still feel that way, but I mean, I know exactly you're talking about, feeling that selfishness, but then when you're at I'm assuming going to probably get into you know get into that a little bit more on your, on your losing your friend side, but knowing what my mom was going through with certain things that happened to her when she was younger, pain and injuries and stuff too.
00:14:41
Speaker
Uh, I guess I took a little step back from the selfishness and, you know, kind of just realized that sometimes that's,
00:14:50
Speaker
selfless was a convenience but gotta try to feel better i i don't know how to explain
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah, and that that's where I would it it wasn't, at least in my experience, um it was not until was suddenly in this space where um I spent about three months where every day ah i would wake up in the morning, and kind of do a scan of of how I was feeling,
00:15:23
Speaker
And i would know first thing in the morning that I was still in this state of existence where at some point that day I was going to have to talk myself out of ah taking that ultimate action um to the point that um I put, I knew exactly how I was going to do it. I put, kept trash bags to wrap myself in, in my bedroom, um, so that I would be easier to clean up.
00:15:57
Speaker
Um, because anybody who's been on a, ah hanging suicide knows that it it gets messy when you release the individual. And I didn't want anybody else to have to deal with that.
00:16:11
Speaker
Um, I went to do it one evening um and I was so intoxicated at the time that I couldn't get my hands to complete the knot that i knew I wanted to use, um which was so something that A lot of people aren't aware of um when you exist in i would say, the military or first responder community is just how much of your identity becomes important.
00:16:50
Speaker
wrapped up in the patches that you have and the all access cards that you have and the badge that you wear, whatever it might be. And when that is stripped away, especially when it is not by design, when when it's not your choice, but when it's kind of taken away from you for whatever reason that may be, it feels even more confusing in trying to figure out who you are after that.
00:17:19
Speaker
And, ah I,
00:17:26
Speaker
so to, to, I'm left in this situation where for a significant period of my professional career, tying knots was one of my responsibilities.
00:17:39
Speaker
It was search and rescue largely involves being wildly efficient at tying knots and hitches and, um, I could not get my brain to speak to my hands, to tie this knot, to be able to take my own life.
00:17:57
Speaker
So in that, ah i um I remember melting down to the ground and feeling just absolutely worthless. Like I can't even complete the simplest act to...
00:18:12
Speaker
allow myself to the only freedom that I thought existed in that state that I was existing in, which was to, to take my own life.
00:18:24
Speaker
Um, and, and, you know, I'm wildly thankful that I didn't now. um but that also meant suffering through the the months to come in this space of knowing that every day I was going to reach that point where I wanted to, to take that out.
00:18:42
Speaker
Um, Thankfully, with time, um I did develop practices and in in clean up my system um to a point that
00:18:57
Speaker
and now cognitively, it feels like my brain and and overall physiology operate at a more efficient ah level than than they ever have before. But the...
00:19:13
Speaker
ultimate
00:19:16
Speaker
realization that I had in in speaking to further doctors and trying to figure out this problem more and more is that both in the military and first responder communities, there are elements to these careers that are unavoidable that are inevitably going to impact our physiology and neurology in ways that create an ecosystem that
00:19:58
Speaker
For instance, anybody who is under prolonged stress for extended periods of time is going to create neural and a certain level of neural inflammation and nervous system dysfunction if they are not taking preventative steps throughout that.
Stress in High-Stakes Jobs
00:20:14
Speaker
Anybody who is exposed to sleep deprivation, like shift work, is going to have these physiological repercussions. Anybody who is exposed to trauma is going to have these physiological responses throughout their system.
00:20:30
Speaker
And you can't avoid sleep deprivation in these jobs. Somebody has to work day shift. Somebody has to work night shift. You cannot avoid prolonged stress when someone else's life we read completely revolves around your decision making in a split second under any given set of circumstances.
00:20:53
Speaker
That is stressful. No matter how and we all talk the talk and and you know it doesn't bother me, doesn't bother me. Whether you acknowledge it or not, it's having an impact.
00:21:04
Speaker
And trauma, when ah when I'm having these conversations, trauma is one of the most overused, wildly saturated terms in our culture these days.
00:21:16
Speaker
What I'm talking about... Joe Dispenza, who regardless of how someone might feel about, he has a ah weird cult-like following. ah But a lot of what he says, I think, is is of of true value.
00:21:29
Speaker
And when he's talking about trauma, he describes it as something that has happened in the past that is still affecting you today. That can be a physical ailment, like your knee. Or it can be something that happened in your childhood that you never processed. And therefore, it's like an anchor that's still holding you back to that time.
00:21:49
Speaker
um How many 70-year-old people have you met in your life that are still behaving like they're six-year-olds? They get kind of frozen in that impacted period of their life, and they never develop emotionally beyond that point.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah. Until we start recognizing as a ah community in the first responder world and in the military world – and in the military is light years ahead of us, especially the special operations divisions in how they are dealing with these problems at this point.
00:22:20
Speaker
and say what you will, fire departments are really getting ahead of us in addressing these problems. Police are prehistoric in their willingness to address this. It's like you're trying to get them to give up their revolvers for a strike or fire weapon again.
00:22:42
Speaker
They don't like change. So <unk> until we start addressing- That's bullshit and cops are gonna die? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That's what it's still 1,000%. don't we don't need it, we don't have those problems, or we're already trying to do something.
00:23:00
Speaker
I've talked to a number of different um agencies who say, we have we have this all squared away, we don't we don't need any help. And i I ask what they're doing, and they say, well, we have a really good um doc who who gets guys the the meds that they need, and we we send them to talk therapy.
00:23:20
Speaker
I'm not opposed to talk therapy. um I think there's a time and a place where that's beneficial. But most of the people that I know, I never felt emotionally traumatized by the stuff I witnessed or saw as a cop.
00:23:35
Speaker
I just, my brain stopped working. So if you're sending me to somebody to talk about the shit that i' stuff that I'm seeing and witnessing, that's not going to benefit me anymore.
00:23:46
Speaker
I need somebody who's going to take actionable practices, instill them in me that I can then take back to to to be utilizing when I'm on the road or when I'm – ah on on a task force, whatever it might be that your assignment is.
00:24:02
Speaker
um So in until we recognize the impact that these are having and ways to mitigate it, nothing's really going to change. I think there are a lot of agencies, rightfully so, worried about long-term disability claims.
00:24:16
Speaker
um But I think there are a variety of ways to mitigate not have that liability ah hanging over their head. And one of them is just to start training these practices the same way that we would train firearms or defensive tactics on a regular basis and ensure that your personnel have these outlets to start regulating themselves and keep themselves healthy. healthy But we're talking about The majority of people who rely on gas station burritos and um energy drinks to to fuel themselves throughout a shift, and that's not doing good things for for their overall physiology. I've been two years of getting out of my academy.
00:25:06
Speaker
I don't know, 60 pounds? You've known me a hot minute. I used to be 270 pounds. But i was eating gas station hot dogs and sodas soda that saying anything to keep me up. The first five years of my career, I was basically straight nights.
00:25:21
Speaker
So yeah, I wasn't putting anything good into my body, let alone taking care of my own mental health. Which is ah in an indulgence, right? i mean, we all at 4 o'clock in the morning when the radio's gone quiet and the you're you're your zone is safe and there's nothing going on, you need something to keep you going for the next two hours until you get to go home.
00:25:43
Speaker
And a lot of those indulgences are stuff... that um feel good in the moment, but the reality that that we're we're just kind of waking up to now is everybody that's doing these jobs is in a constant battle with inflammation.
00:26:00
Speaker
The inflammation is having, so tinnitus, for example, we all joke about tinnitus, how bad the tinnitus is. When I was at my worst, the tinnitus sounded like a fax machine wringer going off in my head.
00:26:13
Speaker
um Tinnitus is a symptom of neural inflammation. And the worse the inflammation is, the worse the tinnitus is. I can tell now when I'm getting sick because the tinnitus that I hear gets it gets louder, more pronounced.
00:26:29
Speaker
The healthier I am, the less I can hear it. um they I'm not suggesting that damage to the um little hairs within your your ear don't have something to do with some people's tinnitus, but for the mass majority of those of us working in these fields, it is related to neural inflammation and can be controlled through ah diet and practices.
00:26:54
Speaker
ah So all things... I would never in a million years suggest that we should stop doing these jobs. There's an absolute necessity for these jobs, but we need to do it in the healthiest manner that we can.
00:27:08
Speaker
These agencies, especially the one that I came from, invest a lot of money to train us up to the operational level that that I was at when I left. They're losing that when we roll out.
00:27:21
Speaker
So the easiest way to ensure that you are retaining those investments is to ensure that they are as healthy um as possible and and keep them operational as long as possible.
00:27:36
Speaker
I think. mean, that's true. 100%. We know. mean, I don't recall you were or a anything like that. But you know how much effort and money is put in just to get somebody through the through the academy, let alone the next 16 weeks of of FTO and then all the continued training forever. I mean, by the time you know if somebody leaves an agency for whatever reason might be, there's hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in this person, if not millions, depending on long they've been there, just in training alone, really.
00:28:08
Speaker
Easily. So yeah, that's ah that's a big deal. And and with I mean, the really beautiful part is watching people rebound. So I'm doing a lot of one-on-one work now with, I've worked with veterans and fire guys and and and cops.
00:28:27
Speaker
And ah more often than not, I am getting guys call me who have tried everything else. Somebody gives them my phone number and I get a call basically saying, if you can't help me,
00:28:42
Speaker
this is the end. yeah i My wife is leaving me. I'm going to get fired. I'm suicidal. I need help.
00:28:54
Speaker
The one deal I make with them is i will I will absolutely help you in every way that I can, but you got to do everything that I'm saying. You got not your way, my way. When they agree to that and they invest themselves, two weeks later, anywhere from 10 to 17 days later, it's like I'm speaking to a different person.
00:29:15
Speaker
And all I'm doing is take these supplements and and it's like vitamin D3, magnesium, zinc, fish oils, vitamin K2, vitamin um This is what I want you eating, which is just a clean, healthy diet, meats, eggs, ah fruit, nuts, vegetables, getting the probiotics in. So looking at the gut microbiome, which we try walking into a room and knuckle draggers and telling them they need they need to start focusing on their gut microbiome.
00:29:50
Speaker
Like the looks I get with that is is astounding, but How often do you hear, hey, how'd you know that was the bad guy? I just had a gut feeling. I just had a gut reaction. We talk about it constantly.
00:30:05
Speaker
The science now is undeniable between the connection between our gut and our brain. Where do you feel it when you get excited? Where do you feel it when you get sad? Where do you feel it when you get anxious?
00:30:17
Speaker
All of our emotions start kind of right here. The connection between our gut health and our overall brain and what we've called mental health is undeniable at this point.
00:30:29
Speaker
And when you're constantly feeding it processed foods and chemicals and not balanced good stuff, you're going to feel poorly.
00:30:41
Speaker
Start feeding it good stuff, it it reacts well. So... cleaning up their diet, getting in breath work. Breath work is another one that I get eye rolls about a lot, but we're already doing breath work. We do breath work on the range, right? When, when you're doing any kind of distance shooting, they tell you to pull it through the trigger on the bottom of your third breath. That's when you you are most relaxed.
00:31:07
Speaker
All I'm doing is refocusing that breath work to help you control your, um, nervous system and regulate your emotions watch videos of guys getting into pursuits if you see the guy panic breathing it usually ends poorly if you see them breathing slow and smooth and it's difficult to breathe in body armor and with a duty belt on yeah but there's ways to to learn to do it more effectively
00:31:38
Speaker
So we do the breath work. We take cold showers at the end of our, or just at the end of my hot shower, I've done this for about four years now. they don't even think about doing it. just do it.
00:31:48
Speaker
At the end of my hot shower, I switch the water to as cold as it'll go and do that for 30 to 45 seconds. the The benefits to that are pretty endless in both physiology and just doing something difficult every day.
00:32:04
Speaker
Something I don't want to do. Forcing myself to do that is a good, beneficial thing. ah PT and mobility. the The connection between the discomfort in your body and your overall well-being is also undeniable. So if you are constantly dealing with something that you have to limp from, you need to address that and make it better.
00:32:27
Speaker
So we look at that. We look at how much exercise are you getting on a daily basis outside of just going to work. We address that. And we start looking at gratitude practices.
00:32:39
Speaker
The science behind gratitude practices of shifting your perspective and finding something good in every bad situation is unbelievably beneficial. Then we look at what their faith practice is. And I don't care, I'm not talking about religion.
00:32:54
Speaker
I'm talking about what makes you confident going to sleep at night that you're gonna wake up in the morning. and And like, that's it. We're just talking, we're cleaning up their life. And in a very short period of time,
00:33:09
Speaker
they respond and they are doing much better. And then it's just, you know after, after those, we usually work together for four weeks. We meet for an hour, ah twice a week. And generally speaking, after two to three weeks, we're just talking because they're feeling better.
00:33:29
Speaker
They're on a roll. And then after that, they'll check in intermittently, but it's usually just a, you know hey man, I still feel really good or hey, i'm I'm starting to feel a little sluggish. Is there something I can do to to pick that up and we'll we'll tweak stuff, we'll adjust it, we'll add to it, we'll take stuff
Life After Law Enforcement
00:33:46
Speaker
away.
00:33:46
Speaker
um But long term, it's just continuing to do the same stuff and taking care of themselves, which is really difficult when You're having to adhere to a schedule that is wildly unnatural for a human to to do under any other circumstances.
00:34:05
Speaker
It's not normal to work a 12-hour shift, get two hours of sleep, and then go to the range for 10 hours. So we have to do stuff to accommodate that type of lifestyle. And when you do that, you really benefit from it.
00:34:24
Speaker
No, you keep saying like we and whatnot, and don't think we've touched on your foundation. You want to touch on that? so everybody knows, like, I know I've done a little bit of research, but mostly I've figured I'm to sit down with you and i'll hear it from you.
00:34:38
Speaker
Yeah. So I started, um, One of the, I started working with a doctor named ah Mark Gordon, who is a neuroendocrinologist. And this was back in 2021. It was one of the biggest things that rebounded me first. He looked, he did a full blood panel on me.
00:34:58
Speaker
um And the big trophy I had coming out of that blood panel was, he called me and said, I've never in however many years, he's probably been doing this for 40 or 50 years.
00:35:12
Speaker
So I've never seen cortisol levels as high as yours were. um But I was drinking exceedingly high at that time. But that's contributing to all the anxiety that I was feeling, just crippling anxiety.
00:35:28
Speaker
So the so the These three elements that we keep talking about, the prolonged stress, the sleep deprivation, and and overall trauma, with with in in my case, the the trauma that I'm relating it to was primarily the TBI-related stuff, the the brain injury stuff.
00:35:51
Speaker
um the the disruptions to your overall so system are pretty immense, but the one that takes the biggest impact um across the board is your endocrine system, so your hormones.
00:36:07
Speaker
um More often than not, when i send somebody to an endocrinologist to to look at their hormones. um they're They're healthy guys.
00:36:19
Speaker
um So if I'm using myself as an example, I won that Garfield County Strongman competition in 2016 and was not on testosterone or anything else. um was not on testosterone or anything else ah protein shakes. That was, that was kind of my big supplement at that time.
00:36:37
Speaker
Um, so I was plenty strong. Nobody, i don't think would look, would have looked at me and thought that my, um, testosterone levels were what they were, but I was in the 200s when I was tested.
00:36:50
Speaker
Um, I have seen guys in the double digits, like 75 to 80. and, and these are otherwise seemingly healthy 30, 40 year old men who should be in excess of, you know, 600 on the low low level, but likely 800 to a thousand on the ideal level.
00:37:09
Speaker
Um, and they're at double digits. So, ah the The benefit of the testosterone replacement therapy that I felt was immediate. Like probably seven to nine days after starting it, my energy levels went up.
00:37:28
Speaker
My mood changed significantly. um i lost weight, honestly, compared to to what I was before taking it.
00:37:39
Speaker
um So metabolism skyrocketed and and just like top to bottom, everything started feeling better. And when that was coupled with everything else that I was doing, it accelerated my healing substantially.
00:37:54
Speaker
And we're seeing that across the board with people. In the addiction therapy ah community, ah the The repeated phrase that I constantly hear is that testosterone replacement was the biggest mood stabilizer that these guys and girls have found.
00:38:14
Speaker
um Testosterone replacement for women and and hormone replacement as a whole has been wildly profound for some of the best female athletes that I've known, not necessarily from a performance standpoint, but from the overall functionality of their, their bodies, especially as women are entering into the paramenopause and meropause, uh, menopause phases of their life.
00:38:40
Speaker
Um, there are a variety of different, um, influences that are really impacting endocrine systems um as a whole. Now, fluoride in the water is a huge impact on endocrine.
00:38:59
Speaker
um The processed foods and different chemicals that are coming in the the sports drinks and whatnot, all of these things coupled together are really, um, affecting people's hormone levels and replacing that with exogenous, um, options is, is a wild benefit. So like I can't say enough about that. Um,
00:39:30
Speaker
so that I started working with that doctor and, um,
00:39:41
Speaker
ah for What was your question? That's all right. Basically, we were we've been talking a lot about kind of what you've been doing since leaving law enforcement and working with different folks from you know law enforcement and and military and all that stuff.
00:39:58
Speaker
um I do, like I said, know that you have a foundation going. Oh, right. Yes. Kind of like, what are you doing with that? And and who's who's the we you've been talking about? Yeah.
00:40:10
Speaker
Well, Kristen, my, my significant other is a, uh, licensed clinical therapist, um, and focuses has a heavy focus on trauma. So a lot of the trainings that I go do at agencies, agencies she'll accompany me and, uh, you know, I, then I can just be the pretty person and, and she, she takes all the hard questions.
00:40:34
Speaker
Um, she's rough with pretty much now that's's She's way better looking than I could have. ah But ah so what I'm saying, we, it' i'm I'm, I'm including her in that.
00:40:48
Speaker
um I have ASM Adam, Sam, Mary foundation, which is a Latin acronym that essentially means quiet the mind.
00:40:59
Speaker
um And I started that initially working with ah Dr. Gordon, who, had helped with, um, Warrior Angels Foundation, which was a veteran-based ah foundation that was sponsoring veterans to go through Dr. Gordon's programs.
00:41:22
Speaker
um So I set up ASM initially to sponsor first responders to go through similar protocols. um But and for there there are a number of different things that ultimately affected ah how effectively we were able to get people through that program.
00:41:43
Speaker
it is at that time, it was exceedingly expensive to put people through his protocol. and So anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000 to get the the blood draw and then the initial protocol for for treatment.
00:41:59
Speaker
So so that required raising a lot of funding. And most of the funding at that time was getting pushed to veterans because we were dealing with the defund the police and George Floyd fallout and and and whatnot.
00:42:18
Speaker
um So that aside, in the years that have followed, That therapy has become phenomenally less expensive.
00:42:29
Speaker
um i I am i still in correspondence with Dr. Gordon, but and I'm no longer working or directing people to his practice. And I have...
00:42:43
Speaker
wellness doctors here in Steamboat and in the surrounding areas to send people to um just to kind of streamline the process and and keep stuff a little closer to home.
00:42:55
Speaker
um So I work individually primarily now with veterans, first responders in um kind of – i'm I'm almost working as a resource where they come to me, i redirect them out to these different ah outlets and options um to to help resolve the problems that they're they're facing.
00:43:23
Speaker
And ah then we also sometimes go to different agencies and we'll do a one or two day workshop, um, with those agencies.
00:43:34
Speaker
They, they've, I've done, done it with fire and law enforcement and, um, one-on-one stuff with veterans, um,
00:43:50
Speaker
And what what I'm finding is it's, it's a great, I enjoy going in and speaking to a big room full of people. Um, but it's just so much more effective to be able to work one-on-one individually with people. And, um, it's, it's way cheaper for the individuals that way.
00:44:11
Speaker
um And I feel like you just have a ah much bigger impact doing that one-on-one work versus big classrooms things. Now, are you working virtually or in person or both?
00:44:29
Speaker
I'll do both. it It all depends on where the the people are. um I've worked with people all east to west coast. um So we'll do all that virtually. And it can...
00:44:43
Speaker
the The only issue with dealing with people outside of ah Colorado is some of my the the the medical resources i have to search a little further for. it But that network is fairly broad. in if I can call one of the local doctors and ask them for a resource in New Hampshire if that's the case, and they can usually find somebody who's willing to to help out.
00:45:14
Speaker
Now I'm sure you get the question periodically. Like you said, you have guys that get, you handed your number. You know, you're the last couple, right? But knowing cops and veterans and all this stuff that, you know, we've worked with for, you know, years.
00:45:31
Speaker
The first question I would have is, is why should I trust You get that off them.
00:45:38
Speaker
Um, I have not gotten it often. i would understand if I did get it. um And my, I think the obvious answer for me is I've, I've been where they are.
Helping Others & Self-Care Motivation
00:45:53
Speaker
I've been in, in their shoes and the um you know, I, when When I was in one of my worst places, the neurophysiologist friend of mine called, and ah i can remember just like being this pathetic blob of ah self-pity and kind of unloading all of that to her and her saying, this would be a really good time
00:46:24
Speaker
to focus on some breath work and cleaning up your gut microbiome and feeling like my head was going to explode. like i'm I feel like I'm dying right now and you're telling me to do breath work.
00:46:38
Speaker
But in retrospect, it was the only thing in that moment that could have saved me beyond going to the the answer that i I went to in the moment, which was ah more bourbon.
00:46:51
Speaker
Um, that wasn't doing me any favors. So, um, having been there, having navigated it having worked with other people who are going thin, every individual, um situation is unique to itself, but, um,
00:47:13
Speaker
I will stop people when they start telling me their story and tell them, I don't, I don't need to know your story. Tell me what you're dealing with as far as how you're feeling and what you want to clean up.
00:47:26
Speaker
Um, because them telling me their story is almost like me sitting in an AA meeting. Everybody in an AA meeting is telling the same story. There's specific, um,
00:47:38
Speaker
you know This is specific to this guy's story. This guy was worse off, but it's all relative. Everybody had some trauma in their early childhood that led them to want to numb out.
00:47:50
Speaker
And now they're cleaning everything up from that. So we're we're kind of dealing with the same process now. My sentiment and what I have seen consistently is most people do not choose to go into these situations avenues of making a living because they didn't have something that influenced that decision as far as trauma when they were growing up.
00:48:21
Speaker
Most of the people that I know that that are willing to put their life on the line for perfect strangers had some ah impactful experience in their youth or in their early adulthood that made them recognize how vulnerable people are and they started wanting to protect them.
00:48:43
Speaker
um And I think that can often be almost a mask for people You know, if I focus on helping other people, I don't need to focus on helping myself.
00:48:55
Speaker
And in search and rescue taught me a very valuable lesson in that we can't save anybody else. If we become another victim in the process, then you've just created a bigger problem.
00:49:11
Speaker
So we need to take care of ourselves first to then be able to take care of everybody else later. makes sense And I'm glad that you kind of said that, that that a lot of folks that get into law enforcement or, mil you know, all that first responder stuff, anything, anything like that.
00:49:30
Speaker
I've been going through my own stuff and working with folks and stuff like that. And I've come to realize the same thing that really what I've done is I've put everybody in my life, whether it's at work or, in you know, my family or anything like that first.
00:49:44
Speaker
and i've always put myself on the back burner um and it kind of sounds like that's what you're saying about most of the folks you've worked with like they finally realize like i need to i need to take care of myself
00:50:00
Speaker
a thousand percent yeah i mean i know when uh when i was still wearing a badge and going to work every day um
00:50:15
Speaker
it was all that I thought about because then I didn't have to think about my own stuff. It's great distraction. Weirdly, that's exactly what my therapist says too. She's like, you're great at work because it takes you away from dealing with everything else.
00:50:33
Speaker
So yeah, I don't know. It makes sense, right? and in And why do we...
00:50:41
Speaker
Why is that easier than just addressing the, there's a rhetorical question. the
00:50:51
Speaker
How many addicts have you met that were really happy with their addiction?
00:50:59
Speaker
None, really. Right. None at all. Everybody's, every addict that I'm aware of is trying to heal something. They're self-medicating. mean, that's why we have that term self-medication.
00:51:12
Speaker
um because they don't know any other way to deal with it. If we had a very streamlined approach to addressing this stuff and explaining it to people, and this is um the the
00:51:28
Speaker
a lot of the psychedelic therapy that is being offered now That is the resolve that it it offers to people. is It kind of puts a mirror in front of your face and goes, here's the problem.
00:51:48
Speaker
This is what is holding you up. Now, the work to unravel that knot that you're being shown takes time and it takes energy and it takes, ah it's it's an entire additional process, but that's kind of the magic of these um outlets that are now available, at least here and in in Colorado.
00:52:11
Speaker
um And they, you know, The efficacy of the second friend that I mentioned that that passed away ah was one of the best athletes, one of the smartest individuals I have ever met in my life and was a total heroin junkie.
00:52:32
Speaker
You would never know it, but behind closed doors, total heroin junkie. And he and i were fishing one day and you know we We had this commonality at the time.
00:52:48
Speaker
he's He's a heroin junkie. I had just spent however many, a decade chasing dope um that he would have hidden from me on any other circumstances.
00:52:59
Speaker
And here we are on a river fishing and I'm wallowing in my misery at the time and he's wallowing in his. And he said, you think you'll ever get through this and and and get better? And I said, ah hope so. you know That's the mission. And he said, it's so funny because people say to me all the time, Ben, you seem so happy and you seem like like you you know you you got everything together and then you have these relapses. And he goes, yeah, I don't know how to tell him at some point in every day, I'm going to have to talk myself out of killing myself.
00:53:40
Speaker
He couldn't get out of his own way. But
00:53:46
Speaker
what I learned in the months following that and what we have seen in the years kind of following that period of time and and what makes even more sad that he passed when he did was Ibogaine, which is an African hallucinogen from the aboga tree,
00:54:08
Speaker
is showing an efficacy of like 88% in,
00:54:17
Speaker
I'll use the term healing, resolving opiate addiction in addicts. Like 88%. If you would, in 2019, when I was still on the road, and I don't know what you're seeing today on the road,
00:54:33
Speaker
If somebody was an opiate addict, I all but wrote them off as even if they get clean from from the dope, it's still going to be nagging them. It's still going to be calling to I talked to people today who were as legitimate of a heroin addict as you would ever meet on the road.
00:54:52
Speaker
And they are telling me, like, I don't have the desire. after experiencing these Ibogaine experiences. And it's hard. It's a long experience.
00:55:04
Speaker
um But it is so profound for them and so healing that it resolves this issue. And it's incredible to be living in a time where there are those options to be explored um And with these ailments, regardless of of whether you were a cop or a veteran or just ah a student somewhere and had a a sports injury that you then got – you know the process. You get pain meds and before you know it, they're they're doing dope.
00:55:38
Speaker
Right. Regardless of how you ended up there, to have these outlets to find true resolve, I think, is a ah really, really beautiful, important thing ah that we should all be grateful for.
00:55:51
Speaker
Now, guess having these outlets for us that are still involved in in law enforcement in some way, shape, or form, what kind of things are you seeing? Is there any pushback from agencies or anything like
Therapeutic Use of Psychedelics & THC
00:56:04
Speaker
that? Or is this truly something that you're able to keep medical and that's what it is?
00:56:10
Speaker
yeah are you Are you talking about from an abuse standpoint? No, I think I'm talking about like we were you brought up psychedelics. Yeah. um So, I mean, that's one of the questions you're asked when when you apply to an agency. Oh, shit.
00:56:26
Speaker
In the state of Colorado, go
00:56:31
Speaker
It's kind of a weird area at this point now when it comes to that. But agencies, when you go somewhere, they still want to know if you've done that and you've got a mark like you have. have you seen any pushback like that?
00:56:46
Speaker
I think it depends on the context of of what were were you doing them with a ah group of of buddies and on a camping trip or in somebody's basement, or were you doing them in a controlled setting with a licensed therapist who is guiding you through the experience and then working with you on, on integrative steps to continue to process that experience to really find the resolve that you're seeking.
00:57:14
Speaker
yeah, um Ketamine is a substance that is legal, i ah believe nationwide now, um to be utilized with, in a therapeutic sense.
00:57:28
Speaker
And in Colorado, um There is licensure available for psilocybin, ayahuasca, and the the other substances.
00:57:40
Speaker
It's still kind of a a gray area as far as the licensure goes, and and they they're trying to navigate um how to nail that down.
00:57:51
Speaker
But
00:57:56
Speaker
I have not heard, or or and and I i think ah I would... I think I would hear about it at this point if that was becoming a big sticking point for agencies.
00:58:09
Speaker
um So the the short answer would be I think it depends on the circumstances that that you were utilizing them. If it's purely recreational – and I'm not – At this point, i'm I'm far enough away from law enforcement that I have no problem talking about recreational use of these substances.
00:58:30
Speaker
i ah therere The concept of someone abusing psilocybin, for example, with regularity... sounds so exhaustive that I can't imagine people doing it.
00:58:46
Speaker
Um, that said, there is no other substance known to, um, science that creates new neural connections at the rate that psilocybin does.
00:59:02
Speaker
Um, sorry, i'm just trying find a charger real quick. Um, So psilocybin has a variety of neurological benefits for healing the brain um that microdosing those substances becomes a really beneficial tool for a lot of people that have had these TBIs like I did.
00:59:27
Speaker
ah So I think that's going to be a real gray area for psilocybin. agencies to start looking at and addressing, um do we do we want to consider this and abusive, you know still a Schedule one narcotic as far as the books read.
00:59:52
Speaker
um so where does the, where, where's the line with it all? And what can we consider acceptable for active personnel to still be operational and take advantage of that?
01:00:10
Speaker
It's not something that I can make a determination about. Um, But I think there's an opportunity to look at those different options and see what jives with with the different agencies. My guess is it'll be a lot longer before law enforcement tries to explore those means versus fire, for example, or paramedics.
01:00:46
Speaker
I think I've heard, haven't heard a ton, but I've been hearing a lot more about the psychedelics and stuff like that. But the one that I think that we all have a little bit more, ah guess, study on would be on THC and marijuana use.
01:01:06
Speaker
I think over that since since it's been legalized and Colorado, like like the first states utiliz it I know there's been a lot more that it's shown to have some medical benefits, but I do know that there are still agencies out there that you can.
01:01:25
Speaker
know I'll just put it out there. My belief is that marijuana should be treated as what it's used. you know It can be used recreationally and it can be used medicinally.
01:01:37
Speaker
oh and be helpful but a lot of advice that are still involved because i've listened to a few things and i read a few things about marijuana it's help But we can't, because that's not good to be your job.
01:01:53
Speaker
So I guess what by by bringing that up, I think law enforcement, like you said know earlier, is we're still old school. We're still at Cleveland Ola.
01:02:04
Speaker
But I think there's a lot more of us, like our age, in this kind of new generation that'll be starting to take over that'll probably be a lot more understanding.
01:02:15
Speaker
Yes, i would I would certainly hope so. And my guess is, you know, having the experience of growing up in Indiana where marijuana is still seen as this wildly taboo um narcotic versus a, and and you know, the irony to me is
01:02:40
Speaker
had I had the outlet of utilizing THC and what I was worried about was, um you know, if if I do use this to aid in my sleeping, which sleep and anxiety were the two biggest things that were bothering me when I when i left the agency.
01:03:00
Speaker
And those two things are very coupled, right? If you're not getting enough sleep, your nervous system is going to be more unregulated. You're going to have more dysfunction.
01:03:12
Speaker
And um the side effects of insomnia are often anxiety. So what perpetuates anxiety? Throw some booze on there. That's like doing...
01:03:25
Speaker
fuel and a fire. That is just going to make your anxiety worse. It's just going make you sleep worse. So it starts this cycle. Whereas if I'm not suggesting and nobody should listen to me say this and assume that THC is a I was just listening to talk between two specialists the other day and one was talking about how introducing t people use THC to assist them with sleep.
01:04:00
Speaker
The other one was saying, well, it's not really sleep. And the specialist who had studied this more in depth, he said that that depends on the person. Some people can enter REM sleep and stay in REM sleep.
01:04:15
Speaker
with thc on board and some people can't and some people it affects for short-term periods in a negative way and some people it doesn't affect at all so it's kind of a case-by-case basis but backing up to my experience i ended up drinking again after almost 13 years of of sobriety because i was so worried that i was going to smoke pot to try to sleep The next day I was going to get an OIS, they were immediately going to draw my blood, and I was going to show hot for having cannabinoids in my system.
01:04:50
Speaker
Now, if we look at the absurdity of that, what's the likelihood that I instead drink two, three glasses of bourbon and still have active alcohol in my system the next day?
01:05:05
Speaker
versus having inactive cannabinoids in my system the next day from smoking pot the night before. weve We regularly hear about cops showing up, early morning shifts and blowing hot on a PBT or breath test.
01:05:25
Speaker
It is not uncommon because alcohol abuse is wildly common within our line of work. I think a lot of those problems would be remedied through allowing ah law enforcement to take advantage of THC and it is a sleep aid.
01:05:47
Speaker
There is debate over how effective it is of a sleep aid from from the standpoint, not of does it actually help you fall asleep? I think that is an undeniable question. Most people smoke pot and doze off and take nap.
01:06:04
Speaker
And so it it um unquestionably will assist in getting you to sleep. The question from medical standpoint of is how clean is that sleep?
01:06:17
Speaker
And the question that I would pose to anybody making that argument is what's better?
01:06:26
Speaker
Inhibited sleep with THC on board or no sleep with no THC on board. So pick your poison, right? And in my opinion, it's back to this antiquated approach of guys wanting to hold on to their revolvers over a a you know double stack striker fire weapon that is going to be more effective and keep them safe.
01:06:52
Speaker
What's funny when you bring that up, the Revolver's been seeing the first agency I worked in, the one you know I worked in, for a long time, apparently, well, actually, even when I started, Glocks were not allowed just because of the old mentality. So it's funny to use that as a reference, but I think it is a reference with, like I said, the leadership that we have now is still part of that kind old school.
01:07:17
Speaker
And now that there's our generations, you know, sneaking in and then starting to to to move on after the genetic command i think that's going to benefit um and hopefully propel at least law enforcement, oh you know, plot-wise a little bit further so that maybe we can catch up to, you know, military and fire, like you were saying. I mean, the one thing that I know we talked about, there's a lot of talk about, you know, veteran suicide, but the one thing that doesn't get talked a lot about is law enforcement suicide. and just public wanted to put it that way
01:07:59
Speaker
But we have the same issues. We just didn't serve in the military. I wasn't a military person, but I've been in law enforcement for 21 years in January. So it's been on. It is statistically now...
01:08:11
Speaker
it is statistically now and and I believe this still holds true, it was a couple of years ago, um that law enforcement and fire, I believe, are statistically more likely to die by their own hand than they are in the light of duty.
Mental Health Statistics & Solutions
01:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't heard that one, but to to me it makes sense. Yeah. It does. We we don't have... we don't have the resources that, that even just the military has. I mean, I mean, we, some, ah some, some agencies have the employee assistance program that pays for a few here and there, but you know, it's not enough. and And that doesn't address the problem.
01:08:54
Speaker
but How much do you, I mean, you you mentioned that you, you talked to a therapist and I don't, I don't want to, you know, that that's, that's, I'm wildly glad that you do so.
01:09:05
Speaker
Um,
01:09:08
Speaker
But how much of that is is talking? And look, I should back up. I personally did not have experiences that haunted me.
01:09:21
Speaker
I had kind of cumulative effects from being on the road for a prolonged period of time, day shift, night shift, but I did not have individual events that took place that created recurrent nightmares for me.
01:09:39
Speaker
My nightmares that I was having when I was really sick were about events that took place and they were playing out in a way where I screwed up and somebody else got hurt. It was like worst case scenario stuff from events that actually happened in a ideal way.
01:09:57
Speaker
And now they're playing out in this negative, horrible nightware nightmare type scenario. Um, I do know individuals and have worked with guys who, um, know, I, I, I don't want to go into their personal stories, but had incidents that took place that do haunt them.
01:10:17
Speaker
And through, um, A myriad of different ways, whether it's EMDR ah therapy, which I think is wildly beneficial. That's that's something that Kristen does very effectively.
01:10:31
Speaker
There is something called stellate ganglion block, which is a ah nerve block that goes into the the vagal nerve up here in your neck. And that is showing it's an incredible bridge. So part of the problem that I have with antidepressants and SSRIs is one, more often than not, they
01:10:56
Speaker
They further fuel neural inflammation. They wreak havoc on the gut microbiome. And those two things are working hand in hand. But they also do nothing to resolve the issues that you're actually having. they they're they're They're a suppressant in your overall health and and and well-being and and how you're feeling. If you're feeling poorly, that is just like and a war it's an indicator.
01:11:23
Speaker
It's your body telling you, hey, something's wrong. We need to address this. If you're just taking it's like a cortisone shot for your brain. If you have a bad knee like you have, and instead of getting the surgery, you just continually gave it a cortisone shot, the entire joint would disappear.
01:11:39
Speaker
degenerate and be worthless and you'd have to have a whole new knee. We can't just replace our brain. We need to address the issues that are actually coming up. A stellate ganglion block, basically, it doesn't have those negative attributes in disrupting the gut microbiome or creating further neural inflammation.
01:12:00
Speaker
it It is a bridge. the If I was going to note a an unfortunate side effect, it would be that it is so effective for six to seven months on average that people forget that they were feeling poorly and they just go back, right back to their normal routine. Like I'm Superman, I'm back, I'm good. And then seven months down the line,
01:12:24
Speaker
Everything resurfaces in the right back where they were before. So when they're using, utilizing this tool, that's an incredible bridge to buy them an opportunity to start implementing these practices.
01:12:36
Speaker
They have to stay focused. diligent in performing those practices and integrating them into their life long term to actually address the problems that are taking place, which come back to this neural and inflammation and nervous system dysfunction that that we are all victim to.
01:12:58
Speaker
how many like I used to get to the office
01:13:03
Speaker
and And, you know, at some point in the shift, we would all collect in in whatever office we were we were all going to. And the conversation inevitably would become this sort of pissing contest of who got the least amount of sleep the night before.
01:13:19
Speaker
And I recognize in retrospect that part of that was because everybody wanted to see how they were going to perform. And whether we are aware of it or not, it's because we know that we can't go long periods. 38 hours was the longest continual shift that I ever worked.
01:13:38
Speaker
And I went home. I slept for probably six hours and couldn't wait to go back to work the next day. This lifestyle is an addiction. And what do we do with addictions? We ignore the symptoms or the the little telltale signals that our body is giving us saying, hey, you've gone too far.
01:13:56
Speaker
You're doing too much. You need to back off. You need to reel it in a little bit. We ignore that because the addiction of wanting to continue is that much stronger than the signals that our body is sending us. So...
01:14:09
Speaker
Until we start recognizing that, hey, everybody having tinnitus, everybody not sleeping well, everybody's marriage is falling apart, everybody being angry all the time and irritable and having anxiety. These are not normal ways of living your life.
01:14:25
Speaker
These are signals that your body is sending you that there's something wrong and it needs to be addressed. When we start addressing it, all those symptoms go away. And that's a really beautiful and cool thing to watch happen.
01:14:40
Speaker
definitely and I'm proud of you, man. I'll put it this way. I know we haven't talked in, in, in a hot minute. Um, I had no idea kind of what you were going through.
01:14:51
Speaker
when you did leave, it's like you were there and then you weren't, but to, to sit here and and have a conversation with you now and and see what you you were doing and what you've done. i'm proud of you.
01:15:03
Speaker
Thanks, man. So, uh,
01:15:08
Speaker
It wasn't something that I would have wished on my, my worst enemy. And I'm really grateful that I did get through it. yeah It's one of those experiences. And I feel like we have a lot of these, and ah hopefully not a lot of them in life, but I feel like everybody kind of hits this point in, in they're all relative and everybody has it in their own right. But you hit this point where it's like, um,
01:15:39
Speaker
That was that that that broke me for a while that ah really. um There was a part of me that believed I was kind of superhuman and nothing was going to get in my way of doing this job for as long as I wanted.
01:16:00
Speaker
And then it turned out that. I was the only thing that was going to stop me and I did it really effectively. And I wish that I could have gone back and done it the way that I would do it now, which is just taking better care of myself and recognizing that I'm vulnerable.
01:16:21
Speaker
I'm vulnerable to these things. And there's a reason that the Tier one guys um that that are operational for oftentimes most of their ah mature lives are utilizing these practices and and making them a part of their life now.
01:16:43
Speaker
ah It makes you a better operator if you are utilizing this stuff. um And that's what everybody should want. We should all want the best cops and firemen and soldiers that...
01:16:56
Speaker
are available. Yeah, totally. And I think the only way because it's still the, I guess the, the, the cop version of don't ask, don't tell you're fine, rub some dirt on it, get back to work. And i think people like, like you and what you're doing and,
01:17:14
Speaker
know bunch of other folks out there did nothing speak about it educating themselves about it. um I'm trying to educate everybody else as what's going to help propel us out of this dark age that I guess we're kind of in when it comes to mental health within the first responder community. What are you, I mean, is it still a pretty, we don't talk about that, um sentiment around the the offices and agencies that you've been in?
01:17:49
Speaker
I mean, to be honest, yeah I honestly kind of think so. You know, everybody puts in a a peer support and it's all, and, you know, and that's great and wonderful. and And those folks that are doing the peer support stuff, like I commend them, like they're they're doing what they can. But the thing is, is, is,
01:18:06
Speaker
I think a lot of us feel like, like you said, like we're kind of invincible and nothing's going to get in the way So we're fine. And I definitely don't need anybody knowing that I went and talked to peer support or finding out or that I'm talking to a therapist or or any of it, because then you, you don't look like, I guess, the superhero that people think we are, you know, we're not invincible.
01:18:32
Speaker
It also, at least in my experience, um and I can acknowledge this now, anything PTSD related when I was still wearing the monkey suit seemed like a viral conversation that could affect me if i listened long enough or participated in a conversation or got too close to anybody that that that was having these issues.
01:18:57
Speaker
um And so i it has been stigmatized and rightfully so. You know, this is, when When I started digging into how long has this been a problem,
01:19:11
Speaker
it the oldest known book that the world is aware of was the Epic of Gilgamesh. And there is mention of people coming back from, i think it was like war fatigue or combat fatigue, something like that.
01:19:29
Speaker
And we have watched every generation ah subsequent to that story not have answers for these questions. What is this problem? You've taken some of the toughest guys you know.
01:19:42
Speaker
I'm not including myself in that group. I'm just saying, i have like you want to talk about the top frogmen, the top delta guy. They have all experienced this stuff.
01:19:53
Speaker
And there there just weren't answers for it. um It's why we had so many functional alcoholics and dysfunctional alcoholics coming out of these these groups.
01:20:06
Speaker
um To see these different efforts coming to the surface and consistently showing resolve is one of the most exciting efforts.
01:20:20
Speaker
things I've experienced in my life, uh, and watching people get better and go back to the communities that they love and be operational for, for much longer, ah is is, it's just a cool experience to see. And I hope more people take advantage of, the options that are out there, because it there's no reason to continue to,
01:20:48
Speaker
try to force a round peg through a square hole um in in just seeking talk therapy and taking ah pharmaceutical options. You're not going to find results through that.
01:20:59
Speaker
ah Not long-term anyway. So if I can be –
01:21:07
Speaker
a resource for people. I am more than happy to direct them in any number of ah different, uh, outlets to, to find what they need. Um, I'm not suggesting by any means that working with me is the best option for someone or the only option.
01:21:24
Speaker
Um, But I can certainly, i will bend over backwards to find the right fit and find the answers that somebody's looking for if they they reach out to me.
01:21:35
Speaker
um You mentioned the website, asmfoundation.com, adamsammaryfoundation.com. um All of my contact information is on there. people can, can reach out.
01:21:48
Speaker
Um, we have Instagram, uh, on there as well as an outlet. And there's a lot of good tools that I include on, uh, the Instagram that, that people can reference if they just want to kind of see some of the work that, that I do.
01:22:05
Speaker
Um, Yeah. but I mean, just recognize that it is an unnatural way to live your life. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing it. It doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means that it's going to come at some cost and how you determine or how you decide to pay that cost is either going to make you breaking point.
01:22:25
Speaker
That's... And and i I appreciate that. One of the things was i i learned you know working for a police department and a sheriff's office is the lack of word of term.
01:22:40
Speaker
you know We didn know how to you know talk a gun out of somebody's hand, save somebody's life. and all this stuff but we don't know how to go out and look for what might help us so you resource just to try to point somebody towards nor and something and I hope anybody, you know, that sat here and listened to us this whole time, you know, if they're confused or don't know what to do, they reach out.
01:23:08
Speaker
I'm glad that you're willing to at least point them towards the North Star and we're pointing the right direction. A thousand percent. That's why I'm here. Yeah. So um hit hit your foundation again and
Foundation Resources & Contact
01:23:20
Speaker
website. And, you know, I think that's a great place for us to kind of maybe see each other in the future.
01:23:27
Speaker
I like it, brother. man Well, what was your your foundation again? ASMfoundation.com? Yes, sir. Sorry. ASM, Adam, Sam, Mary, foundation.com, ASM Foundation on Instagram.
01:23:42
Speaker
um All of my contact information. on On the website, I include... um articles and resources and different outlets for information that kind of explain the process that, uh, I utilize that, that, uh, Kristen utilizes her information's on there as well. And a couple of the other people that often help us out with stuff.
01:24:07
Speaker
Um, there's a few different organizations that, um, I work with that offer different retreats. And there's just, there's a variety of different options that people have at their disposal as as ah a part of um either the veteran or first responder community.
01:24:27
Speaker
It doesn't matter if you're active or former. And I oftentimes work with people who were, were, didn't come from either one of those communities as well. So anybody who's in need, I'm i'm willing to speak with. And if I don't have the answers or ah resources to to help them directly, I will get them to somebody who can.
01:24:50
Speaker
Wonderful. You know, to say that we've worked with folks that but don't come from like our first responder community. And, you know, it's one of the things that I want to try to, guess, show off, you know, the parts of, you know, guess law enforcement, did not first responder, but just working with, you know, prosecutors and attorneys and seeing the stuff they can. Absolutely.
01:25:12
Speaker
that second hand trauma. um aye I've been talked to a few times, like, how do you do this? And I'll go through some of the same stuff. So nobody has to move and I'll point it in new direction.
01:25:25
Speaker
A hundred percent. And it's the long, the more time I spend doing this work and in meeting people from any variety of of um different backgrounds, the more you realize, or the more i have realized that These traumatic experiences are not specific to somebody who's carried a weapon for a living.
01:25:48
Speaker
They are um pretty universal. It seems inescapable. It's a part of the human experience. They are relative. One person's...
01:25:59
Speaker
we We have a propensity as humans to compare our experiences to other people's and dismiss them. There is a huge discrepancy with veterans and first responders to look around and go, what am I complaining about?
01:26:16
Speaker
The guy over there had it way worse than I did. i went through this experience. of like you You were on the road way longer than I ever was. I looked around at all the different people at the agency that I worked for last and went, how, what right do I have to be feeling like this when this guy has been on here long?
01:26:34
Speaker
It is relative. How you're feeling is how you're feeling, what you dealt with is what you're dealing with. um Don't dismiss it, address it and and find results.
01:26:45
Speaker
that's That's my ultimate message. Yeah. All right, man. Well, I look forward to maybe touching base with you again here in the not too distant future. But, you know, I'll get your website and everything thrown in show notes and stuff like that. So thanks for being there and sharing your story. And hopefully, you know, maybe we dig in to some more your story another time.
01:27:07
Speaker
Appreciate it Thanks for having me on, brother. All right. Thank you, man.
01:27:16
Speaker
That's it for today's episode of Both Sides of the Badge. To stay connected and hear more stories that shine a light on the people behind public service, follow us on your favorite podcast platform and social media.
01:27:27
Speaker
Until next time, stay safe, stay open, and keep looking at Both Sides of the Badge.