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Episode 9: Josh - From Handcuffs to Hall Passes
45 Plays2 months ago
Episode 9 sits down with Josh—a former law enforcement officer turned educator—whose story comes full circle in a way that really hits on both sides of the badge.
Josh started in the classroom before stepping into law enforcement, where he handled everything from mental health calls to high-risk situations. Along the way, he learned what actually matters on the job—communication, adaptability, and knowing how to meet people where they’re at.
Eventually, life brought him back to education—but this time, he brought the street experience with him.
In this episode, we get into:
- The transition from teaching → law enforcement → back to teaching
- What communication and de-escalation really look like in the field
- Working alone and making decisions that actually matter
- Leadership—what works, what doesn’t, and what’s missing
- The mental side of the job and what sticks with you after shift ends
- And how one simple idea—doing the right thing—connects it all
We also talk about Camp Badge, a program Josh built to connect kids with first responders and teach real-world responsibility, leadership, and life skills. What started small has grown into something that’s making a real impact in the community.
On top of that, Josh shares his experience writing a book that bridges both careers—law enforcement and education—in a way that’s real, practical, and easy to connect with.
📘 Josh’s Book:
A Retired Cop’s Guide to School Survival: From Handcuffs to Hall Passes
https://www.amazon.com/Retired-Cops-Guide-School-Survival/dp/B0DW8NMJMF?ref_=ast_author_mpb
📘 Camp Badge Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558063824113
This one isn’t about titles—it’s about perspective, growth, and what you carry with you from one chapter to the next.
If you take anything from this episode, it’s this:
Do the right thing.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Josh's Career Journey
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to both sides of the badge. Every badge has a front. What's talked about, what's photographed, what's argued over, and then there's the other side. The part that most people never see and rarely ask about.
00:00:17
Speaker
It's easier to judge it than to understand it. This podcast is about that side. The work, the judgment calls, the moments that don't make the news, but shape everyone involved.
00:00:29
Speaker
This is both sides of the badge.
00:00:36
Speaker
Here with Josh. Josh, how are you, buddy? I'm good, man. It's been a been a while since we last saw each other. I know. When was it last? I'm going to say... Shoot, before I went to Rio?
00:00:48
Speaker
No. I knew you went up there. You were still working as a deputy, I think, at that time. So it's probably been like six years. And then I saw you again when you took the job up at the DA's office. Yeah.
00:00:59
Speaker
So it's been a while. Oh, cool. No, I'm glad you're you're willing to sit down. I was ah i was talking to a a gentleman, and he we got on the topic of of Camp Badge, and I was like, oh I need to talk to Josh. So I reached out to you like literally that day. so yeah that That got me thinking about it and you're willing to sit down and and you know share the who you are because you've got quite a quite a story for your careers. Mm-hmm.
00:01:31
Speaker
So, give everybody quick ah introduction of who you are. Well, ah grew up in Pennsylvania, just north of Pittsburgh.
00:01:42
Speaker
Went to college in West Virginia and I got my degree in elementary and special education. Moved down, taught North Carolina for about seven years. working with middle school special ed kids.
00:01:54
Speaker
Eventually moved back to Pennsylvania. My grandfather had gotten sick, so moved back, taught a little bit around there. And then I ended up, my last teaching assignment was in downtown Pittsburgh.
00:02:05
Speaker
And we were right on Penn Avenue, so it was in the heart of the city. And I was working as an emotional behavior support teacher at an alternative type of school.
00:02:16
Speaker
and um The class, these kids I had, eighth grade all the way through 12th grade, I had a kid that was 19, and they're coming from all these bad places. Monday mornings, you know they would come in and talk about the the stuff they were seeing over the weekend, you know murders, drugs, you know suicides, like all these things going on.
00:02:36
Speaker
And these kids already have behavior and emotional issues. So Monday mornings, if I didn't let them talk and vent about the stuff they saw over the weekend for at least an hour, now the entire week was was ruined.
00:02:48
Speaker
And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, I'm confined to a classroom for eight hours a day teaching academics. And um there's something more I should be doing. I just felt obligated that these kids, you know, while we learn math and reading and social studies, they don't know how to deal with what's happening outside.
00:03:07
Speaker
in their lives. You know, a lot of these kids are coming from single family homes. Some of them are living with friends, couch surfing, you know, because they just, that's just their reality. And we would sit, we'd talk about all this of these different things. And it got to the point to where I started thinking like, what can I do to help these kids ass aside from just academics?
00:03:28
Speaker
And that's what kind of prompted me to look into going into into law enforcement because I wanted to be out in the community uh, in a sense, helping these kids, um, or other kids like them and not just be confined to one place. Like I wanted to reach out, um, to them. And when they would come into school, talk about like some different, uh, things that they can do to, a adjust to what's happening.
00:03:54
Speaker
And so I ended up resigning from teaching, enrolled in the police academy in 2008, uh, back, back in Pennsylvania. And, uh, Got my first first job working for a really small department. We we had about 12 guys.
00:04:10
Speaker
But everybody was part-time except for the chief. And this was 2008. My starting pay was $8.25 an hour. Oof, that's terrible. And, that i mean, that wasn't the worst. Like, we we had a town who was always in the rankings for homicides.
00:04:28
Speaker
They were making less than that, full-time. at this department. Holy cow. And so now we're talking, you know, years ago now, but a lot of that's changed now. And so those guys are making you know more money, but at the same time, they're still having the same crimes, you know? And so a lot of guys and much more money. I mean, yeah, shit when I started in 05 here in Colorado, I was making 20 to 22. yeah, wow.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yep. yeah So and and that's kind of the dynamic of Western
From Teaching to Law Enforcement
00:05:01
Speaker
Pennsylvania. I mean, you know, you have these police departments that are back to back. You know, it's not like out here where you have space that's covered by the sheriff's department, you know, so they work back to back. So you have these little pockets of all these departments and there might be nine departments within one county.
00:05:20
Speaker
And people would jump back and forth, guys would go work part-time. And that was the thing because the towns didn't have to pay insurance, no benefits. you know They pay you whatever the starting rate is for a part-timer.
00:05:32
Speaker
And that's what you would do. You would go from one job to the next job. I remember working doubles. oh I'd work a midnight shift and then have to go work somewhere else daylight. So it was a lot of missed stuff at home, you know birthdays, holidays, because I had to work not making enough money, ended up working for one police department, you know? And the departments that I, you know, kind of worked around were were're some pretty shitty places. and And so we always got held over or we'd get called out. I mean. We'd get to spill over from the big cities. yeah Because we're out in the suburbs.
00:06:07
Speaker
um And I remember working by myself my first shift at that department I got hired at And I was doing just like sitting in the car. I remember and I'm like, please don't let any calls come my way. So every time the radio went off, I was like, please don't be me.
00:06:23
Speaker
The first call I got as my first night, um I got a call for a suicidal male. And of course, I haven't had anything like this before because my FTO training was like drive around for two weeks and good luck. You know, literally being thrown to the wolves. We didn't have FTO programs or any type of training.
00:06:44
Speaker
And so I went to this call and I remember, you know, one of the other agencies asked if I needed assistance. And um yes so I told him, yeah, I was like, come on down. I said, but let me see what I have first, because sometimes when you're dealing with mental health, the more officers that show up on scene make it worse could make it worse, you know, or if he wasn't thinking about actually you know, thinking suicidal, you know, one cop that might be able to talk to him a little bit from a distance and try to build some rapport would be more helpful than three guys showing up that he can see, you know, um could completely change that scenario.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so when I got on scene, he was sitting on the porch in a rocking chair and his family was there. They were the ones that called. And so they're actually They weren't even out of the house. They were in the house. And when I showed up, they came out on the porch with this guy. He didn't have any weapons on him or anything that I could see.
00:07:39
Speaker
But I remember having this conversation with him, trying to figure out what the issue was and what I might be able to do to help that person. a Long story short, I was able to talk to him and build some rapport. And he agreed to be taken up to the hospital for an evaluation.
00:07:57
Speaker
um And so I think it was at that point, like even though it was my very first call, how important communication skills are in law enforcement. Well, basically what you just described is the crisis intervention training that we've all been going through over the last decade. Right.
00:08:13
Speaker
And, you know, you can go through that crisis intervention stuff and and take little bits and pieces of what might work for you. But every situation is different. We know that. How you plan for stuff, it it's not how it's going to go And so even though have some knowledge in mental health and that kind of thing, just because you show up on scene and you're going to try to go book by book, whatever it says in there, you're going to do it. It never works out that way.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, you've to be flexible. You've got to be able to think on your feet, you know, keep your brain going the whole time. Yeah. be willing to maneuver a different direction if that's the way it goes. I mean, I've always been pretty good at talking to people too. I think that's why you and I have connected. I mean, I i don't go in, you know, ready to kick people's faces in and and take them to jail. It's like, let's talk. And, and yeah, you know, what's, what prepared me for that though was teaching.
00:09:02
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Because as I just explained about the kids that I had in Pittsburgh, like, building trust and, you know, the, that relationship that they feel comfortable enough to talk to me and confide in me with these things, um, carried over into law enforcement. And so that first call I had, I kind of already had an idea and kind of had that niche for, you know, deescalating and being compassionate and talking to this person about what was really happening and what I could do to help him, you know?
00:09:31
Speaker
And like i said, and the outcome was good. I mean, he ended up going to hospital for an evaluation. um The family reached out to me later, a few days later, and just was very thankful for the fact that it was handled that way and we were able to get him the help that he needed without anything bad happening. right And not to say that every every time we have a situation like that, it's going to go that way.
00:09:54
Speaker
But I think 100%, 110%, depending on the officer that shows up and his skills to be able to talk to people and de-escalate, not escalate, is how a lot of the situations could be handled without something going bad. Right. right Sometimes that's not going to work, you know, and you have to be prepared for that. But exactly.
00:10:15
Speaker
But going into that situation, I think, is when I realized being a police officer, communication is is is key. And if you don't know how to talk to people, if you don't know how to deescalate, the calls that you go to um could go south pretty quick. and But I contribute a lot of that communication skills and deescalation to being a teacher because that's what I did.
00:10:38
Speaker
You had some life experience before you before you kind of got into it, so that that was very helpful. Right, right. And we do, you know, in that class I had, I had a couple students that went to Western Psych, which is um it's it's a mental hospital for people.
00:10:54
Speaker
And so I had a lot of mental health cases with the kids that would come in that I have in class. And so talking to them and talking about their lives and deescalating. And, you know, do you really want to do that type of thing? So that, that in and of itself, I think that last teaching class I had was a lot of what I was going to see on the street and the people I'd have to talk to.
00:11:15
Speaker
And mental health, I mean, you know, it's, you never know what's going happen when you get a call for something like that. and So you really have to understand what you're dealing with and do the best you can at least, you know, to deescalate that person and and make sure that, you know, this thing ends as well as it can.
00:11:33
Speaker
you know Well, you and I, I think, started right towards the end of like some of the old school, 90s-type cop work and thinking and stuff. And and since we started, you know there has been that big push for the de-escalation de-escalation and the crisis intervention and and just not being a fucking asshole.
00:11:54
Speaker
yeah I mean, that helps you out on a lot of calls. So yeah there's been a big change over that, at least in my career, I've come to see so. And you figure, too, you know, Going back to teaching, you know, I worked special ed, so there's a lot of paperwork involved. There's legal documents that have to be filed. They get audited.
00:12:12
Speaker
um So teaching also helped me in the aspect of report writing, you know, and of course, the reports we were writing were based off of academics. Right. But, you know, going into law enforcement, of course, i had ah I had a ton of templates, you know, stuff that I could look at and and know what to write, whether it be an affidavit or a search warrant or whatever.
00:12:33
Speaker
and having that secondary education, I think when it came to report writing, really assisted me with what I needed to say and how was I going to say it, articulating what happened and what why you did what you did. And, of course, it it took some time for me to learn how to write that stuff, different terminology, you know, and the things we normally put into our our reports. But I think that, you know, as far as, like, grammar and spelling and all that stuff, I mean, obviously that's a that's a big deal.
Influence of Sports and Family
00:13:03
Speaker
I mean, you're working for this to become cops because we were good at English class or math class. And I think we've both been in a situation where, you know, we were responsible for reading reports, you know, search warrants, looking for probable cause, looking for all these different details.
00:13:19
Speaker
And we've had our share of, you know, guys writing reports that just don't make any sense. You know, um there's... one paragraph and no sentences. Yeah. You know, punctuation and trying to just make sure that what you're saying is making sense because if a supervisor is trying to read your stuff and can't understand it, then the attorneys aren't going to understand it. Definitely. The the judge isn't going to understand it. yeah And then you have a case that gets kicked because you don't have the information in it that needs to be, you know, I was just talking to another Sergeant from another agency c the other day, literally like the other day, Wednesday, but um
00:13:57
Speaker
about reports and and writing and stuff. And I'm not like, you know, the the best report writer in the world. You know, the facts are the facts and that's what we were supposed to put in and keep out of motion and, you know, all that stuff. But I do basically a hybrid of a bullet type narrative style and,
00:14:14
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, why do you do that? That's hard. I'm like, no, it's not. it To me, once you get used to it, it's easier because then you keep all the fluff out of it. you know you're You're not coming in and and talking about some some chaotic scene and trying to describe it. You can do it in a few words using bullets. Plus,
00:14:29
Speaker
um I tried just the narrative style a bunch of years back, and I ended up on the stand and the defense attorney knowing full well I had no idea exactly which sentence where it was in my report. I spent like five minutes up there having to read through my entire report when could have just had a little bullet and boom, there it is. yeah so I do that. And I remember, um,
00:14:52
Speaker
we had got some people that just came out of the academy and they were asking me to review a couple of reports that they wrote. And I saw what you're talking about. A lot of their reports were bullets um and there'd be like a summary at the end. And I remember looking at it and I had never seen anybody write reports like that before, you know? So I would call them in and say, you know, i read your report and you have a lot of good details and stuff in here, but like, why did you, why are you using that template? Like help me understand.
00:15:19
Speaker
And, you know, it's usually, well, that's what they taught us at the academy or whatever the case might be. And and I said, okay. I was like, if that's a template you're comfortable using, now by all means, I'm not going to like criticize you for not doing reports like I do them. If you're good with that and you include everything that needs to be included and there's nothing missed and it makes sense, yeah by all means, do do what you're comfortable with. don't Don't let me try to influence you to write a report a certain way.
00:15:44
Speaker
But I would caution you on... making sure that what you're putting in there is consistent with what you're putting in your in your summary and that the information you have in there meets the elements of the crime and everything else. You know you don't want to leave anything out. um But that's part of, ah think, leadership at some point, too, because you know there's a lot of of people that want things done a certain way. yeah different Different my way or no way type thing. We've worked with guys like that. yeah and And it doesn't work. I mean, you know that'd be like,
00:16:15
Speaker
saying that there's only one way to do a felony stop. Right. Or there's only one way to write write up a search warrant for for something. You know, there's every every one of those situations and different. And sometimes, and I can i can tell you there's been a few times where I took the bulleted template because it was just easier to plug in the information on that particular case, you know. And so not only was, you know, am I like sharing what I do with with the officers, but also learning from what they're doing.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yeah. Because I've been out of the academy. I mean, at that time, you know, 10, 11 years. And so they're coming out fresh with these new ideas and the stuff that they want to put in their reports.
00:16:52
Speaker
And I'm good with that. Like I said, I, and so I'm learning some stuff from them and was able to use that same template on some other cases I had. So it's about, you know, we talk about learning and are you as a police officer, do you feel like you have anything left to learn? Right. And the minute that you say no or act like you, like you can't learn anything else, that's time to get out of the career. because ain't helpful Well, then you're get slapped with something and you're gonna be like, oh shit, what do I gotta Well, let's back up a little.
00:17:19
Speaker
way You talked about growing up back east. Who were you as a kid? What kind of things did you do? What got you into you know like sports and all that? What got you into, initially, education? And we already learned kind of what got you into yeah law enforcement.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, my dad, um he was very big on staying healthy and and playing sports and stuff like that. He was a huge baseball fan and he used to tell me stories about um baseball cards. He had Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Babe Ruth, you know. still You still got those now? Well, his the funny thing about it is is my grandmother burned all of them because he left them laying around. huh And so every single baseball card he ever had got got burned and thrown in the trash.
00:18:04
Speaker
So just recently, you know, because my dad passed away Christmas, I was home and I found a closet just full of baseball cards. There were there were complete sets. There was baseball cards that weren't like sleeves, you know, and I remember And I know why he did it because of what happened to him. You know saying? So he bought these sets thinking that a lot of these rookie cards would be in those sets, which makes sense. yeah um But going through and looking at different cards, I found an app that you can scan the card with and it tells you how much it's worth and everything. Cool, yeah. All the technology we have. And and I was like, you know what? There's just too many cards to go through. yeah So I've gathered them all up. I took them down to a baseball card shop where they do memorabilia and things. And I said, this is what I have.
00:18:54
Speaker
I said, I don't know what's in here. i was like, I don't know if you're interested in all this stuff, or maybe there's just certain years that are worth more than others. And, uh, and so he said, look, like, I'm not going to go through all these. Obviously the sets are here. They're like in mint condition.
00:19:10
Speaker
And, uh, he offered me, I think like hundred bucks for all of it. That's it. That's it. Oh, that sounds like bullshit. Yeah. And so, um, There was a couple of the cases I ended up keeping just for me. know what I mean? But I gave him the rest of it and it was just taking up so much space. And to have the time to go through all those cards and everything, man, like my dad would have, you know, if I got two bucks out of it, he would be happy.
00:19:35
Speaker
and And so knowing that I know he would have been fine with a hundred bucks. And so that's what I ended up doing. But back to like him being real big in athletics and stuff. So my two sisters,
00:19:48
Speaker
they were twins, but one had Down syndrome, which led me towards special ed when I went to college. My other sister who didn't have Down syndrome, she she went on, to she's teaching chemistry right now, but she was a really good basketball player. She set a lot of records. She ended up getting a full scholarship down to Davidson College down in North Carolina. and But she had some injuries. She had tore her ACL and MCL like two or three times. So there was a couple of seasons. got Something in common with all my needs. Right. um And so, you know she was very athletic, too. But me and my sister were really close growing up through high school.
00:20:23
Speaker
um And of course, Marla, my sister that has Down syndrome, she was a freshman, I think, when I was a senior. Leah would have been a junior. um But back in that time, we're talking 1996, 95, our high school,
00:20:38
Speaker
ninety five our high school did not have any resources to assist kids like my my sister. And, um you know, they were refusing to help. And then they were talking about she has to go to a a different school that works with kids with Down syndrome.
00:20:55
Speaker
And my mom and dad advocated so much to make sure she was getting an education, which is the law but know for inappropriate education. and it doesn't matter whether you have a disability or not.
00:21:06
Speaker
and really oh advocated for her, like I said, to make sure she was getting the right education. She ended up being, think, the only kid with Down syndrome that ever graduated from school at that time.
00:21:18
Speaker
that So it was a big deal. yeah and And so now, like when I got into teaching after watching my sister and my mom and dad advocating for them, that became a huge part of who I was when I was teaching because I got to see how my parents did that and what the outcome was.
Physical Fitness and Rural Policing
00:21:34
Speaker
And so now being a special ed teacher, you know, and there's kids that have learning disabilities and, um you know, they're struggling with academics and the stuff that's going on. And, you know being that advocate, being able to, you know, change up goals, you know accommodations, giving them extra time on tests is a huge part of,
00:21:53
Speaker
the special education teacher's job, you know? yeah and And so I had like going through college and getting my degree and all that kind of stuff was was how I got into it was because of her.
00:22:04
Speaker
But now, you know, having haven't been a teacher for at least two decades, I mean, because I didn't stop teaching once I got into law enforcement. So it was just different levels. But Being able to implement a lot of that stuff that I saw my mom and dad do with my sister, I think has really helped me in the educational atmosphere to be able to do that for the kids that that I have in class, you know.
00:22:27
Speaker
That's pretty so. Yeah. And then I got into baseball. Obviously, my dad played baseball and I ended up getting a scholarship down to Alderson Broadus College.
00:22:40
Speaker
And I played baseball in college. Better than me. I and so i never got a scholarship, but I love baseball. Yeah, and I played in a semi pros for couple of years afterwards because I ended up like most, don't say most, but I let my grades slip freshman, sophomore year of college, you know kind of enjoying the life. And you had to have a certain grade point average to continue in the program.
00:23:03
Speaker
and A lot of my time was taken up from practice, you know, going to the gym, things like that. And so I actually took off my junior year. And um when I did that, we ended up getting a new coach my senior year, and I lost my scholarship.
00:23:20
Speaker
And so my sophomore year, i was on pace to be an All-American. I had, think in the first, we played a tournament. It was in Greensboro, North Carolina. And i I was MVP of that tournament. I had like, I think it hit six home runs. got my My average throughout that that that tournament was like 500-something.
00:23:40
Speaker
um And that was my sophomore year. So I gathered some interest from the Dodgers and the Angels at that time. And it ended up, know, scouts were coming to watch and everything. But then what happened was was that education thing. And so I took off my junior year to get my grades up because i wanted to graduate, you know, with my degree. I was i borderline getting ready to get tossed because I wasn't keeping up with my stuff. right So I took that year off, lost my scholarship, was going to go back and play my senior year, had a new coach, knew nothing about any of the guys that were playing, and he didn't want to give me any more scholarship money.
00:24:15
Speaker
even though the reason I didn't play my junior year was because of my grades. It wasn't like I just wanted to go and fuck off. But so went back my senior year and I kind of was trying to work with him. I said, you know, so let me come out, do the fall ball, you know, practice with you guys so you can see, know, how I can play and all that kind of stuff. And if I do well enough and make the team, maybe consider giving me some money in the spring, scholarship money.
00:24:39
Speaker
So that's what we did. um Went through, I picked up right where I left off. There was like no missing time. And so the end of fall ball came, we were getting ready to to start practicing for spring baseball, you know, the season.
00:24:52
Speaker
And I went in and met with them and I said, you know, last time we talked, I, you know, asked if maybe I did well and make the team from fall ball, if we would consider giving me a little bit of scholarship money for spring. And he said, no.
00:25:05
Speaker
And so I basically was like, well, you need me more than I need you. I said, so see you later. a Good luck with your season. and And that's pretty much how I stopped playing college baseball. oh It's a bummer, but sometimes you've got make the tough choice. But when I moved down to North Carolina, um I played the semi-pros for a couple years. It wasn't like travel or anything like that, but Charlotte, North Carolina had a couple leagues. and So I played played down there for a little bit, and then when I came back to Pennsylvania for my grandfather, who was sick, I kind of hung up my cleats and you know was was more focused on
00:25:39
Speaker
starting life and having a job and teaching adulting. Yeah. Yeah. And so that all kind of like got washed. And, um, in fact, I had to fill out a biography when I started with the district. And one of the things I put in there that people don't know about me was that I had scouts watching me for, uh, that's cool from the daughters and angels. Yeah. So that's pretty cool Um, no, that's kind of how I guess in a way it's similar, like I never get any scholarship money or anything. And, and,
00:26:07
Speaker
So I started the junior college route and I mean, ultimately it just one day it was like, is this even worth it? Cause I need to start adulting. Yeah.
00:26:17
Speaker
You know, so that's when I hung mine up. And I think too, you know, going through high school, you know, uh, Cross country team, you know, but a lot of the stuff, that a lot of the sports I played was to keep me conditioned for baseball. Yeah. Because I knew I wanted to play baseball in college. So.
00:26:33
Speaker
So you weren't a football guy. No. So that's you didn't cross country. They wanted me to play, but I didn't. That's the same thing with me. Yeah. And so I ran cross country, obviously, for endurance and that kind of thing. I played basketball.
00:26:44
Speaker
um My senior year, they started a swim team because we had an and we had an indoor pool at the high school. That's cool. So they started a swim team. And I joined it, you know, because wanted to stay conditioned. I mean, what better what better activity to keep you all around conditioned than swimming?
00:27:03
Speaker
And so we had I'm trying to think of how many people went out for We might have had a dozen, maybe six guys and six girls, you know, and getting used to the Speedo and all that kind of thing. You're a lot of man to stuff in a Speedo. so Yeah, right. And so um I remember I swam. I did the Butterfly.
00:27:23
Speaker
And I always lost, but I mean, at the same time, I was probably the best shape I'd ever been in, you know, just from swimming. But it was fun. i didn't play basketball that year, and I remember the coach being pissed about it.
00:27:37
Speaker
But him and I didn't really see eye to eye anyway, so I really didn't give a shit. But I swam, and then going into my senior years when a lot of that activity from swimming I noticed a huge difference just in everything playing baseball, you know, and so I ended up, know, I had a great year and got the scholarship and all that kind of stuff. But I lettered in all the sports I had and ended up being like a five Five-sport letterman, I think. That's pretty cool. Even though I only swam for one year, you know. Yeah. We had, like, the big jackets, you know, the athletic jackets, and you had your pins, you know, on on the front. Yeah. Your letterman jacket. Yeah, yeah.
00:28:15
Speaker
I only ever lettered in baseball. I should have lettered it in cross country, but I was probably the worst... runner that we had on the cross country team, but it wasn't, I wasn't doing it for that. i was doing it to be ready for baseball. or so Right.
00:28:30
Speaker
And I was only, was about 175 pounds. I think my senior year in high school. So as big as I was, I was, I was skinny and it wasn't until I think I got to college and you're playing baseball. and And when I took that junior year off, I, I really wanted to get into shape and and started lifting. And I remember,
00:28:51
Speaker
Um, it was one of those things where I felt like I needed to do it to help me with the sports and everything like that. But it got to the point to where I had gotten so big, like I lost all my flexibility. yeah And so the baseball coach, the new guy, he was like, dude, you're to lose weight. Like, you know, you're gonna have to get your flexibility back and all this stuff. and of course, that's not what I wanted to hear. I'll go try that for the football team. Yeah.
00:29:14
Speaker
And so, you know, i went from, you know, 175, I think in high school, uh, to, My sophomore year, I was up to about, I think, 215. Wow. well And then my senior year, I was like 230. Yeah.
00:29:29
Speaker
Competed a little bit in bodybuilding. and But lifting weights and understanding like how important that is for not just the sports you're playing, but you know healthy. you know You want to be healthy and be in shape and that kind of thing. And and so that was kind of the motivation with that was to just get in better shape and and things like that. Yeah. started lifting. I wanna say it was probably like around 2000.
00:29:54
Speaker
And, uh, and it's been nonstop ever since. so It's funny you bring that up because I never, didn't really ever realize how important, you know, being in shape really was. I wasn't a gym rat in high school or anything like that, or even in into college when I was playing baseball. But afterwards, um, it took two years of being a cop and I reached 270 pounds and I was like, damn, i i kind of need to lose some weight just because if something happens, I need to be able to win. Right.
00:30:24
Speaker
And I got down and honestly, you know, the incident I was involved in in 2010, when I got shot, I honestly think by me losing that, because by that time I was down to like a buck 90 buck 95, you know, I'd cut a bunch of that weight and everything. And I think that actually helped me and my heart from where I got shot, like survive that. Yeah. well I have to think of it that way. So, um, so,
00:30:47
Speaker
up to that point where you decided that, you know being healthy and being fit losing weight was important. Did you, were you involved in weightlifting or exercising before that? Like, not really. no I mean, a little bit in, in college, but not quite like it wasn't a big, I knew I needed to. So I'd go to the gym and, you know, do this and that, but I, I, no, not really.
00:31:07
Speaker
Yeah. And I, I remember, think it was my sophomore year. Like we would have gym days where the team would go down to the weight room, you know, and, We had a strength conditioning coach that worked with us.
00:31:17
Speaker
And I used to make every excuse in the book to not to not lift weights. yeah Yeah, me too. I was like, I got to study. Or I got to go do this. if If I could say there was something about academics, I could leave and I was exempt from it. I just hated it. Didn't want to do it. yeah And then not playing baseball my junior year um was really, I think, when like I felt like I needed to make some change. You know what I mean? like i wanted to wanted to weigh more.
00:31:43
Speaker
um they would help, you know, with both, you know, your, um, how you feel about yourself, you know? Um, and so that was, that was a turning point for me because that's when I really started doing research, you know, with different supplements and your protein and like all this stuff constantly going to GNC.
00:32:00
Speaker
And, um, it's expensive quick. It does. And, and so it was, you know, it, I gained some knowledge on exercise and fitness. I ended up getting a certificate in personal training. And so I did some of that for a while.
00:32:12
Speaker
Um, but, You know, that was kind of like what got me into really understanding and wanting to be in shape, you know. And then even more becoming a police officer. you know, I didn't want to be one of those guys that to get out of the car, I got to swing one leg out at a time and use the roof to pull myself up. The one that they're always making memes about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah and And so and and we know, like even in law enforcement, you know, officer presence, it's number one. yeah And if you show up looking like a bag of ass to a call or to something happening,
00:32:44
Speaker
Um, it's not going to help you. And I remember reading an article, um, and it talked about these, you know, there was an interview that was done with these cop killers that were in prison. I was just thinking of that. I was going to bring that up. Yeah. yeah and And then when they interviewed these convicts, they said, you know, what, what was it about that particular officer that made you decide to pick that person?
00:33:04
Speaker
Mm-hmm. to do what you did. And, and every single one of them was consistent. And it was that I felt like I could take them or I felt like I would be able to overpower that person or because they let me like, because of how no confidence. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:18
Speaker
And, uh, and so ever since then it's been, I would always bring that up, you know, to my guys and, and and why it is so important to stay in shape, look the part, you know? yeah Um, so I think that was, that was part of why,
00:33:34
Speaker
you know, we changed around some of the PT requirements and stuff like that when I was working was because we wanted to make sure that the guys we had there knew where they were physically, what they were physically capable of and what they weren't, you know?
00:33:46
Speaker
and that says a lot about you because you could ask people all the time, like if you had to chase somebody for 200 meters and jump over a fence, would you be able to do that? And be honest with yourself, a six foot fence, you know?
00:33:58
Speaker
And if the answer is no then you've got to make some changes because at some point you're going have to do that. Well, if you're going to chase somebody for, you know, however long, you're to be able to fight at the end because what if they turn around and they're ready to fight? and then you've got to, especially out in the rural, smaller places like you and I've worked, ye you could be fighting for your life for three, five, 10, even up in some of the big, wide, vast counties, you could be fighting for an hour in some way, shape, or form. I mean,
00:34:25
Speaker
and And I remember i when I was working for this one department, I i got a call for a guy that was on top of a vehicle and the vehicle was driving through a parking lot. And it seemed to be some type of domestic violence issue.
00:34:39
Speaker
And so I show up on scene. Meanwhile, we had like seven or eight guys out. Every single one of them was on a call. And I go down there and it's in the projects, right? Low income housing. And I went down there.
00:34:51
Speaker
And sure enough, I see this car coming through the parking lot with some dude on top trying to get to the girl that was inside. And the first thing I'm thinking is like, well, it looks like it's me because everybody else is tied up. yeah you know And so she pulls into a parking space and I'm giving him you know orders to get off the vehicle. you know he's He's not listening. He's calling me names. And then crowd starts to form.
00:35:15
Speaker
and we're talking everybody in the projects. Like there must have been at least 35 people. And you're the only one. That that was surrounding the vehicle, me. um I had people behind me. Like I didn't know what was going to happen. And I'm trying to keep my head on a swivel to see like somebody else here being aggressive, you know, because a lot of times they'll they'll amp up the situation just because i'll get those instant because they want to Same dumb shit. Yeah. And I remember um I'm thinking to myself, like, I need to do something quicker because I'm We can't sit here all day trying to get him off the car and there's a crowd forming. So I got on a radio and and I was like, if there's anybody that can come assist me, like I need some help, you know? yeah
00:35:54
Speaker
oh And my sergeant at the time, who I have no respect for, I'm not going to use his name, um no respect for him whatsoever because of how he treated us. He got on a radio and said, everybody's tied up.
00:36:06
Speaker
That's all he said. And so I knew I was in it for myself. And so I got him off the the top, you know, got him handcuffed eventually. And did it by myself. and soon Of course, as soon as I have him on the ground handcuffed, here comes another agency that's like 15 minutes down the road. And come to find out later, because I transported him back to the PD and we put him in a cell, he was ah he was a convicted murderer. He just got out of prison like three or four days ago. Wow.
00:36:36
Speaker
And I didn't have that information at the time. You know what I mean? And not knowing that, which is, is a lot of the stuff that we see sometimes we don't know what somebody has been, know, what their criminal record is when we're dealing with them. But that also kind of like opened up my eyes to the fact that we don't know who we're dealing with when we go on scene, unless there's a record through dispatch. And some guys say, is there any, you know, we have any other incidents at this address or with this individual, um,
00:37:02
Speaker
And at that time we didn't, you know, so it was, it was do the best you can. And and then we, I find out later, like he was actually in prison for murder. Um, it's kind of like a a little eyeopening for you because we don't know who we're dealing with, you know? Yep. I think a lot of people end up missing that because they think we should know everything. And ultimately when you're going to any call, you only have the information that's present at the time that, that,
00:37:29
Speaker
is given. you know i mean Your dispatch is taking it, giving it to Nowadays, most everybody's got MBTs, so you're reading the notes. And dispatch might not think of all the answers or questions to to get answers to. And so, yeah, you're just showing up with the bare minimum. And you want to talk about like the rural stuff and being by yourself, covering 12 square miles or whatever, and backups a long ways away.
00:37:53
Speaker
you know Even though we had multiple guys on and you know, they were all tied up with stuff. You find yourself in situations where you're by yourself regardless of the department you're in. But one thing that I think you learn the most from being a single guy on shift, you know, taking calls is you're going to learn a lot about yourself, what you're comfortable doing and what you're not.
00:38:15
Speaker
And that goes back into physical fitness and everything else, you know. And are you you, know, able to go hands-on with somebody by yourself? And do you trust yourself enough to be able to do that?
00:38:26
Speaker
And if the answer is no, then you better start making some changes and building some confidence because it's going to come back to you. And being alone and handling calls like that on my own where backup's a long ways away, I think really develops you as a police officer in ways that if you always knew you had backup, and it doesn't.
00:38:47
Speaker
So, you know, a lot of cops that are out there that that have a lot of experience um probably worked at a department by themselves on shift, you know. And so that's kind of like what really happens back was happening back in and Pennsylvania because we did have a lot of rural stuff. I mean, even now, like all the all the area that the sheriff's department covers, I mean, yeah being by themselves and It's unfortunate. I mean, we all wish that we had backup where you're riding two people to a car, but nobody wants to be a cop anymore. So it's like, yeah you know, yeah you're going to find yourself by yourself sometimes. But a lot of a lot of places, especially on the, you know, the western side of the country, they're all small.
00:39:25
Speaker
There's miles in between each municipality. Counties are... you know, like thousands of square miles and there's not a ton of money. So literally, like I've worked in in a county where I'm covering 3,300 square miles and it's me.
00:39:43
Speaker
you You do learn, you get looked down upon from some of these bigger agencies, agency guys, like, oh, you're just some podunk rural cop, deputy, whatever. And it's like, you know what? Guarantee that I can talk my way out of any scenario with having without having to use any kind of force, whereas you're probably going to ramp it up and then there's going to be use force issues.
00:40:02
Speaker
yeah Because in all honesty, when you're out in the middle of the sticks and it's dark, there's no traffic, there's no streetlights, there's nothing but the moon, and you and you're about ready to fight somebody, you're to learn how to talk to somebody real quick because yeah you don't have an hour. I wouldn't survive an hour fighting with somebody. yeah One of us is going to die. yeah Well, that's that's pretty interesting, the directions you've gone.
00:40:27
Speaker
and And where and how you've gotten there. um What other kind of, you know, to stay on the cop side. Actually, let's go back to the the academic side being a teacher. Like how how else was that? Like what are the things that you learn that ultimately you were able to bring in into to law enforcement or even thats just helped you?
00:40:47
Speaker
I think that, you know, like I said earlier, being a teacher and having to be organized, having to know be responsible for you know legal documents, writing stuff, you know being able to articulate NIEPs and re-evaluations and a lot of the stuff that you have to do as a special ed teacher, and also advocating, dealing with parents.
00:41:09
Speaker
um Parents are upset about you know, that their kid doesn't have a certain accommodation or they feel like the gen ed teachers aren't providing the accommodations. You know, you're fighting battles that that, you know, you need to like put off fires.
00:41:23
Speaker
And think a lot of parents these days take a hands off approach to to school, any kind of education like, hey, here's my kid. They're your problem for the next however long.
00:41:34
Speaker
And then so you do end up fighting a bunch of battles and then... You wear just as many hats as you do as a cop. We always say, like, as a police officer, you know, you're you're a marriage counselor. You know, you're a referee. You know, you're listening to people who have mental health issues. Like, you wear a lot of hats, but teaching's not so much different. I mean, you know you have kids that come in that are all dealing with something different at home.
00:41:53
Speaker
Single-parent households. Maybe they're living with grandma and grandpa. Maybe there's abuse going on at home. And so, I mean, you do, as a teacher, sometimes take that role of a counselor. or an ear for a kid that just comes in crying and needs to talk to somebody.
00:42:09
Speaker
It's just, you know, I think wearing those hats as a cop and kind of having some experience, even though it was, you know, more showing up as a police officer and looking for crimes and, but being able to to talk to them, it's the same thing that that I do, you know, at school. And so building relationships, again, building rapport.
00:42:28
Speaker
There's always that talk on tattoos, right? Nobody it used to be you couldn't have a tattoo visible. Right. But argument that I gave, which is 100% true, is I've built more rapport with our shitbags that I've had to deal with because of my tattoos because it is a conversation piece. Yeah, exactly. Where did you get your tattoo at? Oh, okay, yeah, I know where that's at. This is where I go. yeah What does it mean? Like, why'd you get that? you know, and you start building rapport over something that both of you both of you have, you know, they're more likely to open up and talk to you about something. Or the next time you see them,
00:43:03
Speaker
you might need a little bit of information. Maybe you're showing up on a call where they might've been a witness, you know? Uh, and so having tattoos at the time when, you know, i got into law enforcement has helped me, uh, on a lot of cases, you know, because it's, it's humanizing the badge. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's part of letting people recognize that, you know, yeah, I come to work and I'm an agent for the government, so to speak, but,
00:43:26
Speaker
when I leave and I get home, like I grow out with my kids, you know, I do all the same things you do, you know, and so it's just a job, you know, it's, we come out and we have a job to do and we do it. I'm still human. I'm still just because I put on a uniform and, and a badge for 12, 10, 12, 16 hours a day, you know, five to seven days a week doesn't mean I'm any different because they go and put on whatever it is they need to for their work and do the exact same hours on the exact same days. So yeah. yeah and And going through law enforcement like years ago, like we were talking before, they were very strict on you know policies. you know No visible tattoos, no piercings. you know You had to do things a certain way. There was a dress code. um
00:44:08
Speaker
And that's kind of what I grew up in as as well as you. yeah But as time goes on, you know we also need to look at what can we do or what do we need to change to be consistent with what's happening now?
00:44:20
Speaker
not what happened back in 1996. And so when you have that upper leadership and the people that are running the department who'd make those policies, if they're old school and they want things to stay the same as how they did it, no facial hair, no tattoos. You're going to wear these boots.
00:44:38
Speaker
We're going to give you the duty gear that you need and it has to be basket weave, you know, all that kind of stuff. Whereas now you have task force, you know, you have people that are going to wear different uniforms based upon what their job is. But I think, you know, things that affect the patrolman was, you know, wearing hats because back then, you know. Yeah, you weren't supposed to. I always challenge that policy. Yeah. And like we've talked about tattoos. To the baseball player, you always wear a hat. That's right.
00:45:05
Speaker
But, you know, like we just talked about tattoos. And so it's like you got to move and change with the times. And I understand, like like my first chief ever, I was lucky enough to have somebody that actually cared enough to show me the ropes.
00:45:19
Speaker
Now it was old school ropes, you know, and as I've gone throughout my law enforcement career, like I've changed, you know, and things like that. But he told me something one time and I'll never forget it. And I always would tell the new guys we would hire. Um, and I tell them about this chief I had. And I said, I remember I was riding with him the first day I came out and, uh,
00:45:39
Speaker
he He told me, he says, you know, he said, I know you're new. He said, da you know, these new guys that come out here now, you know, they want to get into foot chases. They want to get into pursuits. you know, they want the action, that adrenaline with the job, you know, but I was a little bit older. I started law enforcement when I was 30.
00:45:56
Speaker
And he said, you know, one thing that I always, you know, think about is as a new officer who wants that adrenaline rush, you know, they're chasing people and jumping over fences. And he says, but as you do this job and you get older and you have some experience, he said, you realize where there's a fence, there's a gate.
00:46:16
Speaker
and and And it's true. Yeah. Because the more so because it did yeah the more experience you have and the things that you see on the job, you're not going be jumping fences chasing after somebody because there's a gate somewhere along
Career Transition to Colorado
00:46:29
Speaker
that line. You could just walk through it. It's funny you say that. The first thing that I brought to mind is was one of the... the A few foot chases at the beginning of my – I was 21. So I was running and going. I was ready to chase. I was ready to to do whatever I had to. And and I learned that lesson, i don't know, 10-foot pursuits in in my first year or or two, whatever. i'm like, God dang, i'm I'm fucking tired. You got that extra 30-plus pounds on of all the gear. And I went to jump a fence, and I'm like, this is –
00:46:57
Speaker
There's a gate. And I went through the gate and kept on. That's why I giggled that he said that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's true. i mean, it and it speaks, it speaks to, I think people that, you know, guys that go into law enforcement, maybe as a second career, you know, um, understand that, yeah, there's still adrenaline. Yeah. You want to be a cop and do all these cool things. There's a time and a place to do that stuff. But as you, and you're more able to do it when you're younger.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yeah. But as you go throughout the career and you gain some knowledge and, things are put in perspective a little bit more, you're not blindsided by the adrenaline rush. You realize those things, you know? And so I think some of it's just getting desensitized to it. You're like, I've done that before. It's not fun. Or just, just any of it. You're like, Oh, here we go again. Cause as cops, you, you see the worst of the worst and the best of the best. And After a while, you just it's just all the same stuff, which sucks, but you kind of have to if you want to make a a good career out of it, which is probably why most people don't make it, what, five? but so They usually quit somewhere between five and ten years. i don't remember the stat, but... Yeah.
00:48:03
Speaker
Yeah. Well, how was policing in... policing in in Pennsylvania compared to because then we can talk about you and making a gigantic move across the country to come out to Colorado and be a cop. But let's start back there. How was that?
00:48:21
Speaker
Well, like I said, the area I was working in, the suburbs of Pittsburgh, you know, we didn't have. unincorporated land or anything like that. So it was always whatever, whatever the, the department, you know jurisdiction lines were, you're often back to back, you know what mean? So there's one vehicle, you're working one, you know, one city and you drive, you know, three, three miles down the road and you're in another one. So there was always backup that was closed. There was always, you know, officers stationed somewhere around close to you. So it wasn't really,
00:48:53
Speaker
um you know, where you didn't have to worry about backup. But there were times where, you know, that that stuff happened, you know. And at that time, and like i said, we're talking 2008, 2009, everybody was part time.
00:49:08
Speaker
A lot of departments had a chief, they might have a lieutenant or a captain, and that was their command staff. And everybody underneath them, except for maybe a sergeant or corporal here and there, you know, were part time officers. And so working multiple departments at a time was probably 95% of what officers were doing.
00:49:27
Speaker
You know, civil service is huge. And there was a lot of ah full-time jobs that I didn't get because of civil service. You know, in civil service, you know, your military guys that come in and, you know, they automatically get 10 points added to the civil service test. right They get points added on at the end for the interview. And so I don't have any military experience. you know I can take the written test and get a 92 on it, but you could have somebody who's ex-military and you know let's say he has a he gets an 80 on it.
00:50:01
Speaker
you know He's already up as a 90. but you know Or a lot of cases of what happened was they would bump you down. So because of those extra points that the civil service gave the military, you would have guys that completely bombed the written test.
00:50:16
Speaker
But because of the civil service, they would be bumped up into, you know, number three. Right. And so I got passed up on some full-time jobs just because of the civil service stuff. So it was hard.
00:50:27
Speaker
and And full-time jobs were few and far between. um And at that time, um you know, not just civil service, but you had a lot of guys who...
00:50:38
Speaker
You know we're just, know, you were working sometimes 24 hours straight. Yeah. And you're trying to make a living. And that's, that's the reality of what was happening there. And it got to the point to where, you know, I applied some for some full-time jobs. I applied for a school resource officer job.
00:50:54
Speaker
And um it ended up that, like, I just, I just was tired of treading water. Yeah. and you know talking to my wife about it and saying, you know we we never really wanted to stay in Western Pennsylvania.
00:51:09
Speaker
We wanted to move somewhere else. And of course she's like, let's go to Florida. And I'm like, don't wanna go to Florida. I like the Four Seasons. I would love to go to Florida. I don't wanna live on the beach. That's just not me. It's not was brought up because we're in Western Pennsylvania. You have all the seasons. We get snow, we get the changing of the leaves and all that stuff. And I love that stuff. In fact, fall is my favorite part of the year.
00:51:31
Speaker
So we started looking and the biggest thing was I did not want to move to a state that didn't have reciprocity with Pennsylvania. I wasn't going to go through the academy again and in that state, jump through all those hoops right because I just, I didn't want to do it anymore. You know, I'd been a cop for seven years. I'm not going to and try to redo the state tests and the full academy.
00:51:53
Speaker
But every single place, West Virginia, Ohio, North Carolina, South Carolina, um their requirements were that you had to go through the academy. And this is at that time.
00:52:05
Speaker
And I've always wanted to live in Colorado. I don't know what it was, but every time I went to the airport to fly somewhere, I would always find that Colorado gate, you know, where people fly out to Colorado. And I remember thinking to myself a couple of times, man, I wish I was on that flight.
00:52:19
Speaker
So for shits and giggles, I looked up post, you know, I wanted to see out here in Colorado, like what are the requirements for a lateral transferring from another state? And I saw that their requirements were basically take the state exam and then test out of your firearms, driving and arrest control.
00:52:40
Speaker
And that Colorado was really the only state at that time that that I saw, at least that offered that type of a lateral crossover. And so I said I said to my wife, I said, well, what about Colorado? and And before I even finished.
00:52:54
Speaker
Nope, ain't going. It's cold. It's cold and it snows. And, you know, I'm not going to live, you know, in in a place where it's always 32 degrees. And I said, that's not true. I was like, there's different places in Colorado. Colorado, in my opinion, has all all different types of atmospheres. yeah You have desert. You have desert yeah you got the mountains. yeahp You know, you you're living in an area where different parts of the state provide you different types of atmosphere. And so...
00:53:21
Speaker
and so i kind of showed her you know had her looking up some stuff about Colorado and different like depending on where you want to go and I made a trip out here uh flew into Grand Junction and I tested with Grand Junction but on that same trip I tested with the Sheriff's Department um Granby like I made a I made a trip of it you went all over the state I ran in a car And I was and I notified them in advance. I said, hey, listen, I'm making a trip out. I'm a police officer in Pennsylvania. I'm going to be here for these dates.
00:53:55
Speaker
Is there a way maybe we can set up a time to come talk to you guys about, you know, maybe moving out here? And if, you know, and so I got offered a job in Granby.
00:54:07
Speaker
And so me and my daughter, and my wife, you know, we flew out and drove up to Granby. And as soon as we hit Granby, My wife was like, we're not we're not coming out. she was she was she was working at Children's Hospital, so she worked with you know kids. all right And all there's not much in Granby. No. yeah And right away, we're not coming out here. And I said, just keep an open mind. like We just got here. So we met the chief and everything and went to lunch. And they were talking about, you know well, I mean, there's a hospital here, but...
00:54:40
Speaker
If you really need to go somewhere, we have to fly you out. ah There's no Walmarts. There's no movie theaters. There may be now, but this was this was back in. I don't think there is. No.
00:54:51
Speaker
And he started explaining how, like, if you want to go stock up on food, going have to drive two hours to Silverthorne. And when my wife heard that, like, we got in the car and she's like, you're not coming. We're not living out here.
00:55:04
Speaker
So that answered the question. Yeah. So Granby was ah was a an ex. Uh, and then was still waiting and hear back from some of the departments, like what I tested with. Yeah. And so we visited Granby because of the job offer, but then we ended up, um, she didn't want me to take the job. So I turned it down and went back to Pennsylvania.
00:55:25
Speaker
And one of the places I applied to was Aspen at that time too. And Aspen followed up with me and offered me a job. And so Gabriella, my, my daughter, she was,
00:55:39
Speaker
like months old. And me, her, and me my wife and Gabriella, we came out to Aspen, passed everything as far as like the interview and all that kind of stuff.
00:55:50
Speaker
They offered me a position. And the problem we were running into was i'll housing. yeah They do housing there for police officers and other members, people that work within the, the with the and you know.
00:56:05
Speaker
For the city and stuff like that, yeah. And the apartments that they had, the housing that they have, weren't allowed to have any pets. And at that time, I had a German Shepherd.
00:56:15
Speaker
um And so I remember the Assistant Chief Aspen was like, we're just gonna get rid dog. And I was like, it's part of our family. I'm not getting rid of my dog just to come live out here. Plus, the cost of living was ridiculous.
00:56:31
Speaker
So we ended up settling on rifle. you know We moved out here. It was cheaper. We could afford it. But I had a two and a half hour drive to work. Yeah. And I remember Aspen did buy me a bus bus ticket like a bus card.
00:56:49
Speaker
And so I would drive to Glenwood, get on the bus, drive to Aspen. um Same thing, taking a bus back to Glenwood. And by the time I got home, it was already like eight o'clock. Yeah. And I got to get up at four o'clock in the morning start next morning to get back on the bus. So it just wasn't working out. I mean, it was, and, and I real quick for, for, for all the people that might not know Aspen. I mean, I'm sure you do. Everybody's seen Dumb and Dumber.
00:57:15
Speaker
Uh, but it, it, it's Richie, it's ski town. It it's, it's where people go to, you know, to visit it. It's, uh, It's really expensive and it's that way all the way to up and down the valley.
00:57:28
Speaker
So in order to to, there's a lot of people that I know that that do work down there. They do live still here or even further and drive or or whatever. yeah Maybe sometimes with that housing that they have, I know a lot of the places that are are are, you know, a lot more pricey. They do have those apartments that guys, gals can stay in during their work week and then head home. Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:50
Speaker
Yeah. And it was so, that was one of the big hurdles too. You know, I mean, that's, was cutting family time out, you know, and I, as much as I'm sure she hated it you know, I hated it just as much too, because i wasn't able to, to be there, you know, yeah getting, getting home too late, getting up too early.
00:58:08
Speaker
and I really don't think Aspen was really honest with me about either, you know, the type of department they were and the policies. And what really kind of turned me off was the fact that one of the sergeants who was in charge of kind of like the FTO stuff was he was telling me that he got a call for an intoxicated guy that he ended up picking up.
00:58:27
Speaker
And because there's no public intox charges, they had a place where they would take intoxicated people to sleep it off. And so he picked up this guy and per policy, and I don't I can't tell you what the policy was at that time. He had to be transported in the front.
00:58:45
Speaker
And that's weird. Yeah. Yeah. And the sergeant that I was working with, he told me that he put this guy in front for policy, was driving him up to where he was going to take this guy. And guy ended up assaulting him in the police car.
00:59:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's an officer safety thing. That's why at first I'm like, that's weird. Yeah. And so and this guy wasn't even, i don't think he was handcuffed because he wasn't committing a crime. Yeah. He wasn't, they weren't detaining him because he was cordial yeah at that point. but that And that's the the decision that the sergeant made. But he ended up getting assaulted. And he was telling me this. and I'm like,
00:59:18
Speaker
You know I just came from some departments where you just don't do that shit. and you know what I mean? Like it's an officer safety issue. Yeah. And that is a no go. Everybody goes in the back. You handcuff people behind your back because that was part of the policy. And that was like what makes sense.
00:59:35
Speaker
And after he told me that, I was thinking to myself, like, I want to go home at the end of my shift. Yeah. You know, I don't want I don't want to have to worry about policy getting me killed, you know, because of whatever it says. And so I think a lot of the stuff and the accomplishments and the things I did back in Pennsylvania, um, and the departments I worked for were not the same as what Aspen expected of their people. Right. And so it was kind of a mutual, um, just, we departed mutual, mutual went different ways. Aspen just wasn't the place for me. I knew it, they knew it. And so I left, um, and I ended up just working for,
01:00:14
Speaker
Citadel security for a couple of And then I got hired and sealed. But it was one of those things where the distance and I truly feel like Aspen is what got us out here for the for the move and everything. But like living there, if she didn't want cold because it's pretty cold there yeah all the time. Right.
01:00:35
Speaker
So, you know, I truly believe that, you that's what got us out here. we knew that this wasn't going to be a long term thing. And that there was something else more that I, a different department I should be working for. know So, so it ended up working out in that kind of a sense, but there were some hurdles we had to jump over to get settled here and and everything like that. So that's how kind of, ah that's kind of how I got out here was we wanted to move, tread and water, you know, I wanted to,
01:01:04
Speaker
go beyond just the patrolman and get experience and stuff that I could further my career in, you know, all that kind of stuff. And and Western Pennsylvania is just not a place to do that. Right. At that time. And we needed, we needed someplace new.
01:01:16
Speaker
And what's what's what's the big difference between copping out there and, and copping out here? Like the people, the agencies, the mindsets in, in, in an agency, you know, the cultures, I mean, you were talking about,
01:01:31
Speaker
not, not really fitting with Aspen. There's a big cultural fit that you'd have to be to be in place like that. you got to have a certain mindset and stuff like that. What's the big differences between out there and here? Well, i talked about, um, moving forward in my career, you know, wanting to, learn about other stuff in law enforcement and just driving around writing tickets and answering calls.
01:01:55
Speaker
They don't provide training for you out there at this time. You know, The time I was working there, if I wanted to go to a training on accident reconstruction, that was on it was on my dime.
01:02:06
Speaker
what There was no training budget. I'm telling you, like it was it was a ridiculous. You were part-time, too, so that's probably what another way they they do that? Could be, yeah. but i But I know for a fact, too, even some of the administration,
01:02:19
Speaker
um didn't get that stuff paid for either. But it was every bit of what I wanted to do to enhance my career and move forward was on my dime. And I had to pay, I can't even tell you how much money I paid in trainings back east um that I had to fork out myself. So accident reconstruction training, for example, Pennsylvania State Police are the ones that hold those trainings.
01:02:40
Speaker
But it was on the other side of the state. And it's a week long training for each or one of those levels. And so I paid for the class, you know, I had to pay for my housing. Yeah. You know, driving out there, none of it was reimbursed.
01:02:52
Speaker
And so I actually lost out on money paycheck wise because I wasn't there working. You know, I didn't get paid for being out there. Right. So that was one of the biggest issues, I think, is.
01:03:04
Speaker
Well, what's their post like? And and and post, you you talked about post earlier, peace officer standards and training. What's theirs like? I mean, is there requirements? for a certain amount of hours of continued training like we have out here? So not necessarily. We did have to go through updates every year, kind of like what we do here, and we get credit for that.
01:03:26
Speaker
But at that time, Pennsylvania didn't have like these standards where you have to have 22 hours or 25 hours of continuing education in certain areas like they do here.
01:03:37
Speaker
If you you got through the, you know, wherever the updates were, you know, you were good to go till next year. Well, Of course, the firearms training, ah I can only remember two departments that ever took us out for firearms training.
01:03:54
Speaker
Wow. And it was really a lack of, I think, the state just not maybe not seeing the importance of it. i don't know I don't know how they could see that, but it's one of those things where like even, like I said, the trainings that I had to go to, and these were things I wanted to gain more knowledge in. Mm-hmm.
01:04:13
Speaker
But it was all my time. And so it got to the point to where those were questions that I asked of the departments out here was, do you guys pay for training? You know, because I wanted to make sure that why would I move out of state to Colorado if those departments are doing the same shit that they're doing in PA? a Like, that doesn't make any sense. But I come to find out, you know, talking about part time and and the situations and the departments I worked for out here.
01:04:36
Speaker
Was there a difference? was Was how Colorado does things different from what I was experiencing in Pennsylvania? I didn't want the move to be going from you know Western PA going into the same shit out here in Colorado. and So those were a lot of questions I had for departments. Like, what do you guys do for training? Do you pay for it? Is there is there opportunities for growth?
01:04:55
Speaker
and And so You know, there was a lot of things. And and I think what really impressed me was the full time aspect and that nobody had full or nobody had part time. Right. So when you get hired, you're full time. And that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted to do. And so that played a big factor in deciding to come out here. And I didn't have to go back through the academy. Right.
01:05:18
Speaker
So back east, it made it a lot harder to advance. You were often paying for your own training, your duty year. Like none of that was provided.
01:05:30
Speaker
Is it still that way back there? Yeah. Yeah. Trainings, though, I was just talking to a buddy of mine who he's the chief of police now. and I was asking him, I said, like, you've been friends with these guys for years.
01:05:43
Speaker
Moving into the chief's position, know, Like, how did you handle that? You know, because there was a lot of people that didn't trust him and didn't want him to get the chief's job because of the good old boy club.
01:05:53
Speaker
Right. And I was just picking his brain about it. and And he was telling me that that was something he was concerned about when he got that job. And he was just telling me how he kind Fixed that issue.
01:06:08
Speaker
You know, he realized and had meetings with the guys like, i'm going to be fair. This is how it's going to be. And wait, was he in the good old boys club or was he outside of the good old boys club?
01:06:20
Speaker
He was in. Okay. I would say for sure. But there's, there's departments now where chiefs come to him and say like, dude, how do you, how do you have such a good relationship with your guys? How do they trust you? You know? And I think he realized from having a chief prior, the way that he was treated,
01:06:36
Speaker
going in saying, if I'm ever the chief of this department, I'm not going to treat my guys like I was treated. You know i mean? I want things to be fair. I want everybody to have a voice. I want everybody to have the opportunity to to grow in advance.
01:06:47
Speaker
And that's what he's done for that department. And and it's been great work you know working out for him. Covering their trainings and yeah trying to, like you said, let them grow. Yeah, we talked about training. And he said that was one thing they never had there.
01:06:57
Speaker
And so he budgets for trainings now. He said if the guys want to go to something that they think they want to maybe move up in or be more knowledgeable about, He said, I'll find the money. Yeah.
01:07:08
Speaker
and And he said, I've told my guys, if there's something you're interested in, let me know if you find a training and I'll send you. And that was unheard of at that time. Yeah. And so now, and he's a younger dude, ah probably our age maybe.
01:07:21
Speaker
And he, I say younger, like we're young. oh I still feel 30 even though I feel i also at the same time feel like I'm 60. Right. But I kind of wanted his perspective on how he jumped over some of those hurdles and and concerns that the guys had with him becoming a chief, you know, and I think he's figured it out, man. Like he was telling me the stuff he did and I'm like, that's awesome. Like those are things I i would do have have if I was ever in that position.
01:07:45
Speaker
But that's now. And back then. like I said, treading water, trying to keep your head above water. And and it's just Colorado was going to offer this opportunities, which is what I was looking for. And so that was kind of like the decision of coming out here.
01:08:00
Speaker
Right. There was a lot of stuff I asked questions about because like I said before, I'm not going to move to Colorado and be stuck in the same situation. Right. So that was kind of like how we decided to move, you know.
01:08:15
Speaker
That's interesting. Yeah. and the And the differences, you know, we talked about. Yeah. No, that's a it's a good one. um Now, getting into your your career, let's talk about highs and lows.
01:08:29
Speaker
What's you? What have you learned? um but What will make your eyeballs leak? What will make you laugh out loud? ah You know,
01:08:41
Speaker
i think that, you know, being out here you know, there's, and kind of being a new guy, right?
Challenges in Leadership and Work-Life Balance
01:08:48
Speaker
I mean, I've got some experience, but I'm still learning Colorado law, you know, at that time and everything else.
01:08:54
Speaker
But i've I've worked for some people that honestly weren't weren in positions they probably should have never been in. And so a lot of the lows that I had in the career here in Colorado were built around you know, the concept of how, you know, they always talk about shit rolls downhill. Yeah.
01:09:15
Speaker
And if you don't have good leadership, you know, guys are going to leave. You know, they're not going to trust you to make right decisions. A lot of chiefs are, at least in my experience, plausible deniability.
01:09:30
Speaker
Yeah. Anything that happens good, they take credit for. The bad stuff, they don't know nothing about it. And so the lows for me were were frustrations with more or less running a police department and doing all the things that the person above you should be doing.
01:09:52
Speaker
Having things passed off to you. you know Things go bad or go south, where's where's the top guy? Nowhere to be found. right And you know I hate to say it, but I mean i use leadership, the word leadership, very scarcely.
01:10:08
Speaker
Because there there's a huge difference between, you know, leadership and a supervisor. there was huge There's a huge difference just in in what leadership and managing is. And a lot of people manage timesheets all that other stuff that you have to do as an administrator.
01:10:28
Speaker
They don't necessarily project um the values and the missions and and culture that you expect from a good leader. yeah Yeah. And, you know, and I found myself a lot you know, I'd be off duty off on my three days and I was still getting phone calls from my guys because they didn't want to call that other person okay because they don't trust them.
01:10:51
Speaker
They didn't trust in the fact that he was going to give them the right decision. And so it was me that they were calling at three o'clock in the morning, you know, and, and I was supposed to be off duty and they made the, the chief made it very clear. He's like, when,
01:11:05
Speaker
Somebody in our command staff is off duty. They're off duty. Don't be calling them. You will call the supervisor that's on duty or whoever that may be. and But they got around that because they knew if they called the person they were supposed to call, they weren't going to get any answers. And they were just going to say, well, call your hernick.
01:11:23
Speaker
And it happened all the time. And so, you know, it's they those guys wanted to call me initially. They didn't want to make that phone call to the chief. you know Because they knew they were just going call me anyway.
01:11:35
Speaker
right And so even though I was there to help these guys out you know and and and be that crutch for them when they didn't know what to do or if they could do something as it pertains to you know our case law.
01:11:48
Speaker
And as much as I loved helping them, I didn't really have days off. okay And you know that took a toll too. I remember you know I had my my work phone on the nightstand next to me and ringing at 3 o'clock in the morning.
01:12:03
Speaker
And then I caused some issues, you know, with the family. Right. You're off. Why are you getting these phone calls? And as much as I wanted to help guys and help them, help them learn, you know, be the best they can be, educate them on situations like that so that the next time they have it, they know what to do.
01:12:21
Speaker
I couldn't. I couldn't bail on them. I didn't want to bail on them. I wanted to be there to teach them and to make sure that they're doing the right thing. And which they bring they needed guidance. Brings up a whole a whole other thing that I think a lot of people miss with just in in first responders anyways, not even just law enforcement is you do have a family. you you You've gotten married, you you've you know made children and and built a home, bought a home, whatever it is you decided to do. But at the same time, especially in a small agency,
01:12:51
Speaker
You and now have another family because it's tiny and and you work with those guys. You're probably with them more hours of the week than you are with your own family. They are family. You still want to take care of them.
01:13:04
Speaker
You're getting a call at three o'clock in the morning from one of your younger guys. It's like like your kid calling going, hey, dad, I fucked up. I got too drunk at this party. Can you come get me? Can you come help me? you know yeah To me, that's what it seems yeah it's always seemed like. Yeah. and And that puts things in perspective because you know you're right. like Those younger guys that look up to you, you're trying to be a role model, they trust you because they know that if you don't know the answer, you're going to find it. You're gonna and you're going to train them. You're going do things properly.
01:13:33
Speaker
And so they know that. So they're going to call the people that they know it only takes one call to figure out what to do. Right. Not calling one person and saying, okay, well, i don't going to call somebody else.
01:13:44
Speaker
And, you know, it becomes one of those situations, like you said, you know, they're like your own kids. Yeah. Because they need advice. They they they want to learn. They just haven't had it yet. Yeah. Because in small agencies, you know, you're not going to get the experience you would in a big city.
01:13:58
Speaker
Right. And so and that brings me to a point, you know, where people talk about years of service versus experience. Two different things. Oh, yeah. I don't care what anybody says. You could work 25 years as an airport cop. Yeah.
01:14:09
Speaker
What experience are you getting besides maybe somebody trying to sneak a gun on a plane? You don't shit about drugs. You don't know shit about, you know, any type of accidents that might occur or whatever. You don't have the experience that a street cop has.
01:14:22
Speaker
So, you know, you could be on year of 25 jobs. It doesn't mean, 25 years. It doesn't mean you have 25 years of experience. Right. You might have 25 years of experience working in an airport security, but we depending upon where you well-rounded experience. Right. Yeah.
01:14:35
Speaker
Depending on where you work, you're either going to work for an agency that's this hopping call to call when you're busy. You know, and that's how it was back in PA for me. Or you're going to work for a department that, you know, doesn't get a lot of calls. but the But the drawback with that is is is if you're working patrol and you're hopping just going from call to call to call to call, you miss out on ah a lot of learning opportunities on how to actually do good investigations and. and You document evidence and and stuff like that that you do get when you work in a smaller agency. Right. Yeah, nothing gets passed off to detectives. Yeah. You know, you you catch a a sex assault like we were talking earlier, it's your fish, you clean it.
01:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um and And the younger guys that haven't had experience doing that, you're walking them through it anyways, which I had no problem doing. Like, if it was about my guys supporting them, making sure that they're being trained every week, you know,
01:15:26
Speaker
to the point where they're confident enough to come into work, go handle a situation, and know that they can handle it. And ultimately, that should be the goal of administration. You know, your chief, your your your leadership, well, supposed leadership, should be able to go home on their days off and not have to worry about the fucking department burning down. right That should be the goal. Or worrying about the new guy you just hired if they're going be calling you for something while you're off.
01:15:52
Speaker
You know, and and that's that's a low part of it, too. But it's also part of growth. You hire guys to give them a chance and they can apply stuff that they did in their careers, you know, even if it wasn't initially in law enforcement, common sense and, you know, being able to handle a call that might be like a big deal.
01:16:12
Speaker
But knowing that you you do have somebody you can call to help you if you need it or come out right now. The other lows, like I said, most of it ah there were much more lows back in PA than there are here. and A lot of that had to do with just, you know, trainings and um not getting paid, you know, that kind of shit. But I was thinking more along the lines of lows. Those are great ones that you bring up, but.
01:16:36
Speaker
like work-wise, like stuff you've dealt with that that hit home and in some way. Like, you know, there's one one call that I went on, and it was an overdose death, and this couple had been together for, i don't even remember how long, we'll say forever, um with three two or three kids, but he was stepdad.
01:16:57
Speaker
And... As soon as the gal passed away from from her overdose, these people just started flocking in with these kids, and he had no repercussions. And and one story my wife likes to tell that that it's 100% true is I went home that night. I grabbed my stepdaughter, um who I've been father to since she was like 18 months old.
01:17:19
Speaker
And I don't remember how old she was this time, eight or so maybe by then. And I picked her up and in the middle of the night, you know, you get working a swing shift, getting off at three o'clock in the morning, gave a big hug and and I didn't end up in the room quick enough for, for you know, your wives get to know when you should be home. So then they wake up and you're not home. She found me in there and she's like, what's wrong? i go, I don't care what it costs. Get us an attorney. i need to adopt her.
01:17:43
Speaker
And she's like, why? I'm like, we'll talk about that tomorrow. yeah And that's what it boiled down to. I didn't need anybody coming in out of the woodwork raising my kid. yeah. Yeah.
01:17:54
Speaker
Yeah. It was, and you always hear like any Academy, it's one of the things they touch on and it's leave work at work. And in reality, we would all love to do that.
01:18:06
Speaker
Yeah. It'd be great. But unfortunately that's one of the costs you pay for being a cop. And and there's times where, you know, I would come home and need 20 minutes to just unwind yeah by myself and know up in my room that I have where I kept all my stuff and sitting on the recliner and just... That guy's got a lot of motorcycles. Yeah. Just ah unwind. and And I knew how to do that.
01:18:30
Speaker
And it was nothing my kids could help me with. It was nothing my wife could help me with. I had to do that on my own because I wanted to make sure that by the time I'm good, i want to be able to go down and talk to my kids about their day at school or talk to my wife about how her work was, not what I was doing and the things that bothered me in my in my job.
01:18:49
Speaker
And it got to a point to where you have that little folder in the back of your head where you keep pushing stuff and you're putting it in there. And it can affect you mentally if you don't have support. Luckily, you know my wife, you know she's she was
Managing Stress in Law Enforcement
01:19:03
Speaker
she's a nurse. She works in a baby unit.
01:19:05
Speaker
And she sees deaths. yeah She was telling me just just this morning, she worked last night, that there was a 12-year-old girl that hung herself. And they brought her into St. Mary's.
01:19:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I know that stuff hits home for her too, because Gabrielle is 11, you know, Sebastian's nine. and And we want to protect our kids. And it's just like, she's dealing with stuff at work. I'm dealing with stuff at work. yeah I'm not so much anymore being a teacher because it's a lot less stressful, but mentally. It's a different type of stress. Yeah, yeah.
01:19:36
Speaker
Mentally. you know you really have to to figure out how you're gonna deal with what you deal with. They ask in interview questions, you know what do you do to relieve stress? you know And for me, it was always working out.
01:19:48
Speaker
For some other people, might be reading, for some other people, might be fishing, whatever, but you've gotta find Those things that are going to help you leave work at work, because it's not easy just to say that. Right. You have to be, at least me, I have to be actively doing something to make me forget about what I just had to deal with on my shift.
01:20:04
Speaker
And so it's one of those things, like I said, that as you go throughout your career, because you're not goingnna you're not going to be able to, there's a lot of stuff you're learning when you're brand new. But at some point, you know, you're going to have to find somebody that you trust and can talk to that understands, in my case, you know, my wife and who's going through a lot of the same things. So we kind of piggyback off each other.
01:20:26
Speaker
oh She talks about things she sees at work, you know, and when I was an officer, you know, at stuff I was seeing at work. And that's part of the positive things, the pro things, you know, if if I had not had that support and most guys don't. Yeah.
01:20:42
Speaker
You know, i mean, look at the percentages of divorces with police officers, you know, it's high. Yeah. And it's because I don't think there's a game plan for a lot of guys don't have a game plan with their spouse to say, this is what I need. This is what I don't need. You know, let's let's have 15 minute time when we both get home from work and just talk about what we need to and then move on with family stuff.
01:21:04
Speaker
Yeah. That has to be a part of what you're doing. And a lot of younger guys, I think, who aren't married, who don't have kids, you know, they're they're they're new on the job. They kind of like really, don't want to say they really don't necessarily need that or have somebody to talk to. They just kind of deal with it and put it in that that folder in the back of their head and and that's it, you know. But as you get older and you realize family's more important than your job and you're trying not to bring stuff home,
01:21:32
Speaker
There's going times where you can't leave it at work. Yeah. You know, I remember um it was one of the first calls I had when I moved out here and I had an FTO. We got a call for a rollover on I-70 and get out there with the we're the first ones there. There was a car and a median.
01:21:50
Speaker
ah And it was on its side. So I get out of the vehicle and i' i'm in I'm in my mode now. you know what I mean? Like we just had a crash. We to see if there's anybody that's injured, somebody inside the vehicle, whatever.
01:22:04
Speaker
And I go running down to the car from the the interstate. And there's a dead dog that's in a median. So obviously they were probably in the car too. right And no adults, there was no mom, no dad, but there was a girl that was, I think, eight or nine years old.
01:22:21
Speaker
Ended up getting her out of the vehicle through the the sunroof. Carried her up to the car. My FTO still didn't even get out of the car at that point. I'm sitting in the vehicle.
01:22:32
Speaker
Okay. So I open up the back, the back hatch and I'm pulling out like, cause she, she was bleeding from her head, you know? So, and all she kept saying is, where's my mommy? Where's my mommy? She, she wouldn't answer any other questions. And I've got gauze held to her head.
01:22:45
Speaker
I can hear medics coming. Um, and they got there and I passed her off to to the medics, but she just wanted to know where her mom was. And at that point I didn't know.
01:22:55
Speaker
Cause I was focused on her and getting her the help she needed. Come to find out, you know, mom was thrown from the vehicle. She was on the other side of the interstate across two lanes of traffic, deceased. And you know, that little girl, her life probably revolved around her mom.
01:23:13
Speaker
She was scared. So that's the person she would go to when she, she needed something. And the fact that she was that concerned about her mother, like eventually, and it's not something I had to do, but eventually,
01:23:26
Speaker
Whoever that person was, you know, had to explain to her what happened, you know. And that puts things in perspective, too, because like the story you just told about your your daughter you wanted to adopt. You go home after the shift, after just handling a situation like that, and that's what you want to do. You want to grab your kids, hug them, you know. How did you deal with the fallout of that, like the emotional ah emotional and mental stuff that would have came from that? Because at that time, you were a father, right?
01:23:53
Speaker
Yeah. yeah how How did that make you feel?
01:23:58
Speaker
Well, there's there's always, you know, you always have those feelings because, you know, we're human. We're human, yeah. and when you show up on scene, you have to put that aside for a minute because people are looking to you to fix their problem, to fix their issue.
01:24:16
Speaker
You know, the general public isn't calling us saying, hey, my kid just graduated high school. They're calling because they've got a domestic or they got assaulted or whatever. And so you have to understand that people are calling you for help. And so you have to switch into that mode to explain to them and make them feel like they're safe.
01:24:35
Speaker
And a lot of times it's not easy to do when it's something traumatic like that. But I had dealt with so many situations like that back East, um, that it wasn't something I didn't know what to do.
01:24:48
Speaker
Right. So if you flip that coin and had it been something I had for the first time, I think the fallout from that would have been a lot worse. But I've learned over the course of the years when I have a traumatic situation like that, that I deal with it pretty well. I mean, I of course I think about it. I mean, I just told you the story. and This was 10 years ago. So, you know, but at the same time, what comforts me is knowing that as unfortunate that situation was,
01:25:19
Speaker
I was able to comfort somebody, you know, being a little girl yeah in such a traumatic situation like that. yeah And so that's what helps me, I think, sometimes deal with that stuff, you know, and that's what you have to do a lot of times, you know, even on other calls. It's just something I think that you learn over the course of the years.
01:25:40
Speaker
and being in situations. and And the first couple that you have is not easy. The first first situation like that, we had a rollover DUI accident one time and there were only two of us on.
01:25:52
Speaker
And I showed up on scene and it was on a major interstate. And I got there on scene and it was utter chaos. I mean, there was there was somebody that was in the vehicle, was in the middle of the interstate, covered in blood, oh crying, couldn't tell us who she was, if there was anybody else in the vehicle.
01:26:07
Speaker
And um immediately I'm like, okay, triage, right? right What are her injuries? Where is she bleeding from? Come to find out it wasn't her blood. There was a nurse that was traveling to the, to work. I stopped on scene and I told the nurse, I said, you know, can you, can you take her, try to calm her down and see if she has any major injuries? Because off in the woods, there were some bystanders that were calling me over there for somebody that was in the vehicle.
01:26:33
Speaker
And so I get over there and, you know, Like I said, there's these guys that stopped and there was a girl who was a passenger that the vehicle was up on its side. She was under the car.
01:26:44
Speaker
So the A pillar and the B pillar, the part that comes up on part of the roof, like she was out the window, but that was resting on her. Right. And she was still alive. And so I told the couple guys that stopped, I said, go in the woods and see if you can find a log, find something that we might be able get some leverage to slide under that vehicle to keep the pressure of the car off of her.
01:27:04
Speaker
and Meanwhile, while they're trying to go find a log, they talk about like super strength, like when you're you're in a situation where um and so I'm lifting this vehicle as much as I can, which was probably inches. You know, it wasn't going to save her life.
01:27:20
Speaker
And, you know, doing the best I could to try to keep that pressure off of her until those guys found something. But every time they found something, it wasn't strong enough to support the weight of the vehicle. I mean, that's just how it was. And she ended up dying on scene.
01:27:32
Speaker
Well, because it happened on interstate, it was a Pennsylvania State Police's jurisdiction. So they do the the reconstructions, you know, just like we have here. 45 minutes later, they show up.
01:27:45
Speaker
We have no ID on the girl that's in the car. So we don't know who she is. It's a rollover, so there's a good chance that some of her property may have been thrown from the vehicle. So while state police is there dealing with stuff, meanwhile, the the guy that was DUI that caused the accident, he's just roaming around.
01:28:02
Speaker
And so I went over and told it told the tripper, I said, like, do you think you might want to handcuff him or something, put him in the back of your car? So anyway, so i'm I'm looking in the weeds for for some type of evidence of who this girl is that just passed away.
01:28:15
Speaker
And I found a cell phone. it was was Well, it was not a cell phone, but like an iPod for music. But it had her picture on the front, you know, and and some contact information. We were calling dispatch to see if they had any information on this girl. We finally figured out what her first name was. We ID'd her.
01:28:32
Speaker
And she was like three or four miles from from home. She was getting off the exit. So state police comes over to me and he's like, hey, I need you to go deliver a death notice. Oh, ah no.
01:28:44
Speaker
So, no, uh-uh. Got an address. And there was another guy that was working with me, brand new. i mean, he he had been on the job maybe like a month. So I told him what was going on. I says, we need to go up and and talk to mom.
01:28:59
Speaker
we drive up to the address, and I can tell you right now, I remember where I parked. I remember what color the car was in the driveway. I remember walking down this path to the front door, um knocking on the door, and her mom came to the door. and She said, oh, she's like, I thought maybe you were my daughter because she went to a concert tonight. And right and I said, are are you Carly's mom? She said, yeah. And I said, OK. I said, can we come in and talk to you for a minute? So we came in. Her dad was asleep.
01:29:27
Speaker
oh I mean, and I'm thinking, what do I say? there's no There's no book. There's nothing in your policy. It's not something we learned at the academy.
01:29:40
Speaker
And i remember asking her to sit down. And I'm thinking about everything that, like, you watch movies and you watch shit like this happen. yeah And, and i you know, every situation is different. So I remember, like, in in stuff that I've seen, you know, having the person sit down, you know, for whatever reason,
01:29:57
Speaker
And she said, you know, what's, why are you guys here? And I said, you know, Carly was in an accident. And she's like, okay, like, do I need to do a pick her up? You know, is she at the hospital or what? And I said, like, here comes the bombshell, you know, like, you know, she didn't make it.
01:30:13
Speaker
she She was like, what do you mean? And I said, well, Carly was in an accident, but she passed away. And all the emotional stuff that we learn about,
01:30:26
Speaker
You know, denial, blame. I seen every single one of those those steps of grief um in that conversation. And she immediately was like, no, no, no, she didn't.
01:30:39
Speaker
You know, and she's she's in that denial phase where she's not believing what we're telling her. And jere Jeremiah, he was the officer working with me, he starts crying. And I'm like, dude, like I know it's a tough situation, you know, but he was reacting to, his emotions were reacting to mom.
01:30:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And so I think her husband had heard her crying, so he came out. It was like, what's going on? And her mom was saying, you know, Carly's dead. She passed away. And so it was one of those things where there's no easy way to do it. No.
01:31:10
Speaker
And you just have to say it and try to be as compassionate as you can. And this was the first, like, death situation like that that I had had, not to mention having to go tell parents that their 16-year-old kid was just killed.
01:31:23
Speaker
And i like i said, I saw those stages of grief. oh Long story short, I kept in touch with her mom. Her mom was having a really difficult time. And I was doing, I was working a little bit in the school.
01:31:37
Speaker
And for prom, I would always do something with the kids about DUIs and things like that. Well, Carly's mom, her name is Janice, and she, kept we kept in touch.
01:31:48
Speaker
But she had not really opened up about anything about how that's affected her, you know? So I talked to her because we were coming up on prom time and I said, you know, I know this is tough. This was a couple of years after this happened.
01:32:00
Speaker
I said, but what do you think about maybe talking a little bit to our seniors who are going to prom about what happened to Carly? And she was a little hesitant at first, but eventually she came around and she says, yeah, she's like, I can try.
01:32:14
Speaker
i said, OK. I said, so we had this we were in the auditorium, you know, all the the juniors and seniors. And I introduced Janice. And she talked about for the first time that she was able to talk to anybody about what happened.
01:32:28
Speaker
And she was standing in front of these juniors and seniors and and talking about her grief, how that affected her, all because someone decided to drink and drive. And it was so powerful. And she talked to me after the fact and talked about how that really helped her by talking to those kids, because she knew that if there was anything that they got out of it, it might keep one kid or two kids from drinking and driving.
01:32:51
Speaker
And it was successful, you know. So not only and there wasn't a dry eye in the place. I mean, it was it was when I say it's powerful, like it really was. And she explained all this stuff, you know how she was dealing with it, you know the stuff she was doing and how you know she she hasn't touched Carly's room. Everything's the same.
01:33:10
Speaker
and And so she talked to these kids about it. And then after the fact, know, we still kept in touch. In fact, when I moved out here, she gave me a picture of Carly. And and Mariah, who was maybe 12 at the time, she gave Mariah some of Carly's like hats that she used to wear, you know, and I think that helped her, too, because she knew that Carly was always a giving person and she would want Mariah to have some hats or or me have her picture.
01:33:41
Speaker
And so there's a process to that, and I think We know that when we talk to people about things that are going on or stresses that you have, it can really dig you out of a hole, mental hole. you know yeah And so law enforcement just isn't about handling calls, going and dealing with death.
01:34:01
Speaker
There's that emotional toll. And sometimes to help yourself deal with those things, is doing kind of sort of what I did with Carly's mom. I knew that if she had the opportunity to talk to some kids and maybe save one of their lives, she would want to do that. And Carly would have wanted her to do that. That's why I brought it to her attention to see if she would want to you know partic participate in that.
01:34:21
Speaker
And so it helped her, i think, grab grasp what actually happened and deal with it, like I said. And that brought some closure for me, too, because I knew that She was okay.
01:34:34
Speaker
She knew how to deal with that stuff. And so therefore it was okay for me to let it go. Right. And to understand that, you know, it's tragic, but life goes on. So some of the things that you have to deal with as a cop doesn't just stop at the time that you clear the call or going home and you're home for two days. And you think that that's going to be enough time to deal with things. You know, we're talking two years later, know, where she wanted to do these things. And so,
01:35:00
Speaker
being a cop isn't just about handling calls it's about your mental health it's about knowing what might help you grieve and go over things because of what you see but also the victims and the families that lost somebody how they can manage that and move on there's a lot of what ifs in law enforcement because let me see here i want to pull something up that i created a while ago and I'll bet you with what I'm gonna say then, hopefully I can find it. If not, then I'll just have to you know wing it. But let's see here.
01:35:37
Speaker
And then
01:35:45
Speaker
here.
01:35:48
Speaker
I can't find it. Long story short.
01:35:53
Speaker
A lot of people, especially me, you get into law enforcement when you're young because you're ready to run and gun and enforce the law and just be this really cool person, right? Because they ask you that when you first start. and like It's a question that you get asked in the interview process.
01:36:08
Speaker
And that's basically what it was. is you know I want to be a good person and I want to do this and I want to do all that. But after stuff like the story you just shared, it's not, and you get time on, it's not about that. It's it's really about being...
01:36:25
Speaker
a hero or a warrior for somebody when they're in their time of need and can't do that for themselves. And then the what ifs come from You know, between you and I, we've got, what, 30, 40 years of of law enforcement experience combined.
01:36:40
Speaker
We don't know how many people we've saved, but by doing it, whispered we saved somebody in some way, shape,
Impact of Camp Badge on Community
01:36:47
Speaker
or form. if it's If it saves one person's life, even if it's only one person over 20 years, isn't it worth it?
01:36:53
Speaker
You know, I mean, just you getting her to be able to open up and talk to to the juniors and seniors, you probably saved her life in the long run because imagine what kind of depression she could have kept going through and could have. Yeah. Yeah.
01:37:10
Speaker
There's a lot more to it than just having a badge and a gun and then going to calls. I mean, and I think the younger guys, I could see it where they may deal with it a little bit easier, maybe sometimes because it's the first time they're seeing it and they're young and it's just like,
01:37:23
Speaker
you know They're there, they know why they're they're a police officer, but for guys that have families and understand you know what family means and what, it becomes much bigger than you being on a shift and stopping vehicles. And I might even actually challenge that with the young guys, because all they did is put it back in the folder, because they have an empty file cabinet in the back of their head, and they're going to end up having to deal with it later. And I think that's one thing that that we started was still a thing like suck it up, buttercup, get back to work, that we we are slowly changing, but you still see it often enough where we're we're tough, we're cops, we're supposed to be Superman, right? you know we're we're We're the hero. yeah I'm fine.
01:38:08
Speaker
That's where us guys is like you and me got to grab those young guys and be like, You might be now, but you're not. Let's go handle something appropriate, you know, in an appropriate way. Yeah, right.
01:38:20
Speaker
But I like, I think that's a good, a good s flip to a good thing that you do in Camp Badge. Because that's a very big positive thing that you get to give back rather than having to deal with, you know, death and abuse and all that stuff. Talk about that.
01:38:41
Speaker
So 2009, I was working for that same department that I started with. And we had ah we had a couple schools in our jurisdiction. And of course, being a teacher, I understand and understood the things that go on in teenage minds. and that time there was so much negative propaganda and shit being talked about through the media and how cops are your enemy and don't trust them and so on and so forth. And so i was like, well, I taught before, what if I put together some type of program that would help break some of those misconceptions that kids and families have about the police?
01:39:19
Speaker
And so initially I'm thinking, okay, let me come up with a name that sounds sort of like, you know, law enforcement, you know, and badge, but let's use it as an acronym. um or the things that you know I want the cadets to remember and learn and that are going to not only affect them you know in school, but but taking the stuff that I wanted to do home, responsibility, you know do always doing the right thing. And so I put together this camp and like I said, it was initially there to break some of those misconceptions. And so I remember the first camp, in fact, I posted a picture of it on Facebook. i had seven kids and
01:39:58
Speaker
They had white t-shirts and dark pants, and that was it. And we talked about, you know, we did calisthenics. We did a lot of stuff like that, and it was it was successful. And so I did it for a couple of years, but each year that that I had it, um I got more donations because it was something that was repetitive, and we were doing it as a program.
01:40:17
Speaker
And, you know, being able to buy uniforms and hats and all that kind of stuff. Well... At that time, that's all it was. you know We talked about gun safety and bullying and we did calisthenics and we showed them handcuffs. And so it was all all these interesting things that those kids your thought was cool.
01:40:35
Speaker
Had the helicopter come, all that kind of thing. And that was 2009. And I've held camp every single summer since then. And I went from that small group of kids and how It was original, you know, so it wasn't like we had all this equipment and stuff. But as the years went on, I always tried to add something more to it.
01:40:58
Speaker
And so doing it in PA and then bringing it out here, having the opportunity to do it here, it really grew.
01:41:09
Speaker
It grew to the point to where, you know, I started implementing, as far as the uniforms go, attaching it to like an application fee where the kids get, you know, a t-shirt, they get a hat.
01:41:20
Speaker
And so it kind of evolved into that. And then, of course, getting donations. And so Under Armour, Nike, 511, Relentless Defender, you know, these companies, when I told them what I was doing, because they understand the value of teaching kids and breaking those misconceptions, they all wanted to be a part of donating some stuff and supporting them.
01:41:43
Speaker
And so, you know, they were given, you know, they they would put together these T-shirts or they'd put together the hats and send them over And so the kids, it went from them wearing their own clothes to small uniforms. I know if I can put them in a police uniform. It's fucking 96 degrees outside. Come on, teach them what it's like to wear body armor and 30 pounds of gear on your hips. Right.
01:42:13
Speaker
So, yeah, talking a little bit about, you know, just... some of the support and stuff like that that I got and explaining the type of camp it is. and that's when I talked about some of the sponsors.
01:42:25
Speaker
It evolved into, you know, buying shirts and hats for the kids. And then I was like, well, how cool would it be if if I could find a duty belt small enough for a kid, ah would we be able to use it?
01:42:40
Speaker
So I did some searching on the web and all that kind of stuff. And I found, they're like the Velcro inner part of a duty belt because they don't make it. six year old duty bill. So we improvised a little bit and over the course of about a year or two, because things are so expensive,
01:42:57
Speaker
I was able to purchase you the belts, handcuffs, handcuff pouch, the blue guns we used for training. And eventually we had pretty much a full duty belt for the kids.
01:43:11
Speaker
And we know they're kids. So, I mean, the handcuffs, the blue gun, like some of the kids know never thought in their life that they would be learning how to handcuff somebody or whatever. But working into them actually feeling like a cadet, wearing the weight of the belt the entire time, you know running, doing calisthenics. But you know they I think that was kind of the the turn that the camp took because we were actually holding it holding a program that legitimately had the cadets feel like they were police officers.
01:43:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. And, you know of course, that stuff's very expensive. you know We go through... supplies, you know, having to buy new handcuff keys and things like that. So now what went from seven kids to a white t-shirt and black shorts to 50 kids wearing a duty belt, you know, a shirt,
01:44:08
Speaker
being a squad leader to to build responsibility, having people come that, you know, are first responders like our medics, our fire trucks, police officers. And so it's evolved into this program that a lot of the kids are repeat kids that come back. But then of course, you know, there's new people that email and they say, Hey, we want to enroll our kid, you know, we heard all these good things. And oh And so it's it's been really successful. But the hard part about it is always trying to do different things because the kids that return, I don't want them getting bored because we're doing the exact same thing we did last year. Right. So part of the difficulty of it and and doing a program is trying to find new stuff that you haven't done before and keeping the kids interested.
01:44:57
Speaker
So there are some kids that I've had that are going on vacation. like the week that I hold the camp. And so I also do kind of like an offsite type of academy with them where I more or less kind of give them a weekly schedule of stuff that they need to do.
01:45:15
Speaker
They can do it while they're on vacation or whatever the case might be, but they have to fill out certain things. They have to keep a journal, which all gets submitted back to me. Cool. And I look through it and, you know, and they can earn their hash mark that way too.
01:45:29
Speaker
And so. Well, you're giving out hash marks for like each year? Yeah. Like we were on our sleeves? Yeah. That's awesome. So at the end for the new cadets, they get a framed certificate. And in the frame certificate is one of the hash marks which represent years of service, or years of attendance.
01:45:44
Speaker
And so We do that, and then every year they come back, they get into an additional hash mark that they can add to that certificate. And so a lot of the kids, they'll come in, yeah know, like they're going in the third grade. So they would have third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, every every cadet or every one that they attend before they get to high school because it's like third through eighth grade. By the time that they're done, they have all of those hash marks, you know, filled in and they have the opportunity to come back.
01:46:16
Speaker
as a role model, you know somebody that's been through it that can help some of the younger kids. And I think last year I had eight, I think, that came back cool to help out.
01:46:28
Speaker
And so, you know, a lot of the stuff that we do is a lot of hands-on stuff. It might be, like I said, with the fire department. There's a lot of other organizations that come and help, like the the reserve,
01:46:43
Speaker
place that they have for like the animals that are injured. So they come in and do a demonstration with some birds and things like that. We have CRO from Rifle. They come in and talk about dog safety and that kind of thing and talk a little bit about what they do.
01:46:58
Speaker
But the goal is to have them interact with first responders. It's not like, you know, you have a bunch of people that come in that have no law enforcement experience and are trying to help you. But it's it's the purpose is to bring them in so that if they they have to see, if they see one of these cops, maybe they come to their house. you know They recognize them and and the police officer recognizes them, like that relationship throughout camp. And what's interesting is the first day we do it, they're very timid, but the ones that are new especially.
01:47:28
Speaker
And they're almost kind of like you see, like it's a little surreal to them that they're gonna be interacting with police officers and first responders and everything. But by the end of the week, you've built such a relationship with these kids.
01:47:43
Speaker
Like they're telling you what they had for dinner. You know, they're wanting you to come out and and do the defensive tactics with them. Like there's that relationship building within a week that is also a purpose. You know, it's it's it's making that purpose for the camp of reality because they are interacting positively with first responders. Yeah. But it's it's difficult. know, I've been doing it since 2009. So it's it's a program that.
01:48:09
Speaker
Definitely has evolved. I get a lot of kids. I get a lot of interest. I think last year i i had a full i had a full camp by April. Wow, the end of April. And then just recently too, ah you know, we have another agency that's here and and on the Western Slope that kind of wants a copycat what I do.
01:48:30
Speaker
And quite frankly, I'm i'm actually flattered. Yeah. Because if my program is that good that you want to take the stuff that I do. Yeah. And the things that I created and copy it so that you can do the same program like that, that I'm good with that. Yeah.
01:48:45
Speaker
Well, mean, the purpose is the kids. it's Exactly. What what i so i hear you saying is you you started off as, hey, here's cops, and this is the the cool stuff we do, to you've turned it into...
01:48:57
Speaker
life skills, leadership skills, you know, just all of that. And then it's, it's, it's an awesome opportunity that a lot of cops don't get to unless they get into something like that.
01:49:08
Speaker
um or like I used to always do with, with canine, make that first interaction that a kid has with a cop, like the most positive thing in the world. So that way, they they continue to just kind of, like you said, want to keep growing a relationship. They're not scared of us when we show up. I mean, one of the things I hate dog fricking most is if little Billy, if you're not nice, he's going to arrest you. And I'm like, no, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. Your mom can, you know, beat your butt if she needs to, but Hey, here's a sticker yeah or something like that. Yeah.
01:49:41
Speaker
So, you know, it's, I'm not surprised that you know there's another agency that wants to kind of do the same thing to build a relationship with first responders.
01:49:52
Speaker
The thing that only irritates me about it is like, kind of doing it behind people's back. You know, you think that you want to hold something, that's awesome. If somebody would have called me and said, hey, i we're thinking about doing this for our kids and our community. Like, how did you get started? Like, what's, can you give us any advice? Like, let's work together. and i would have been more than happy. Yeah, how can I help you? To do that. yeah But the problem is egos, you know, and you've got certain agencies that think they're better than others. You've got guys that, you know, they see something somebody else is doing and they're like, oh yeah let's let's do it here, which is okay. Mm-hmm.
01:50:23
Speaker
But when you start doing shit like that without having a conversation first, all it's going to is piss people off. yeah and And they know that did see that. But more so than not, like um'm I said, I'm flattered and I'm glad that I could put up together a program and have it be so successful and other agencies want to piggyback off it to do their own thing. Like, that's cool. Because the goal it's not about me. It's not about the apartments. It's about the kids. right So if you're doing right by the kids, you know,
01:50:52
Speaker
That's all that matters. You know, and that's why um I built a camp. So in a sense, by doing the same things that I do and building those relationships and involving first responders, it's almost just kind of a branch off of what i've what I already do. And so not only are we reaching the kids in rifle and parachute and Glenwood and all the kids that come from different places, um we're not missing those kids either because they're just doing a separate program. you know Are they still doing it out in Pennsylvania? Yes. Yeah.
01:51:19
Speaker
And so the chief I was i was talking about earlier was, oh talking about the camp, we're talking about how much it's grown and evolved into what it is. and And I told him, I said, you know, because he said they were doing something similar, but there's been some issues with finding somebody that is motivated enough right and understand why we're doing it, you know, and wants it to benefit the community.
01:51:43
Speaker
And I think that's the issue, at least back in Pennsylvania. But I did tell my buddy that's a chief, I said, you know, if you if you want me to come out here and you have somebody in mind that wants to do this, I'll come out and I'll work with them and you know give them all my information and what I do and you guys can tailor it to your community or whatever.
01:52:01
Speaker
And so that's a possibility, too. um And then when I was going through, it was like the transition from law enforcement to teaching. And I was working for that company that trains law enforcement officers all over the country. right I had presented down in Vegas one summer and it was a national police conference.
01:52:20
Speaker
And I met a guy that works out in Wisconsin. And we were talking about, because so what Camp Badger wasn't part of my presentation. I was doing some school safety drugs and things like that. But we started talking and I was telling him about the camp that I do. And he was interested in maybe taking it back to the chief and seeing if it's something they can start doing there because of the value that it has. Right. And so I think right now they're they're in the process of doing that.
01:52:45
Speaker
But everybody's so busy, like we haven't had a chance to sit down and be like, this is this is the format. This is what I do. This is how I do is how I keep track of the nonprofit stuff, because Camp Badge, ah it's registered as a nonprofit to the state and the name and the logo and everything is trademarked to me. but you know, if if somebody were to come and say, hey, you know, we want to try something like this out when we police, you know, they could call it whatever they want to.
01:53:13
Speaker
You know what i mean? yeah Or if they wanted to use the name or the logo, as long as I would be involved in what they're doing, yeah then, i mean, they could do it all day long, like every summer. Like, that's that's what I want want it to grow.
01:53:27
Speaker
yeah well um
01:53:31
Speaker
But hardest part now is like i said, you got people are moving, you know, everybody's busy and you have cops working daylight. They can't come. Everybody's shorthanded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what makes it difficult. Um,
01:53:47
Speaker
but we manage you know we take some guys some days end of the week we have some different guys that come because they're off you know so it's a lot of communication back and forth we're trying to get it get it organized and fixed right but you know it's it's been successful i mean we've done we've done fundraisers uh all kinds of different stuff and it's really and again like i said before like it's not about me it's about the community it's about what's behind it, which is why I started it. And that is to build relationships with law enforcement because of where we're at right now in the country.
01:54:23
Speaker
Well, think it helps mentally too. we we Like we've touched on, we always see people at their worst. you know Parents aren't calling us because their kid graduated or or you know got their driver's license or anything like that. But yeah you start building these relationships through things like Camp Badge or or any ah anything else, National Night Out,
01:54:44
Speaker
you you build those relationships and you do start getting some of those calls. Like, hey, little little Johnny was a little shit and I know you dealt with him and you've kept tabs on him and mom's calling going, hey, thank you because you helped my kid finally graduate and or, you know, whatever. it's it's you You get some honor from that rather than than just always dealing with the shit.
01:55:05
Speaker
Well, one of the things that that I do at camp is every single summer we do oh the Stop Bleed program, yeah first aid, and then CPR. So when I was doing this back in PA, um it was a projects again. I was working for that department and I held camp and I had this little boys, African-American kids. was Julius um or Julian.
01:55:27
Speaker
And he was eight, second grade, the smallest kid at the camp, but just a joy to be around and awesome. Well, we did first aid training, you know, that kind of stuff. And about two weeks later after camp,
01:55:43
Speaker
um he was He was down on a project with his family. There was a bunch of family members within the apartment and there was an infant that was there that was unresponsive.
01:55:54
Speaker
And so the adults had called 911, the dispatchers trying to explain to the caller and the people the adults that were there on how to do CPR. when I turned around, Julian was doing CPR.
01:56:07
Speaker
That's awesome. On this infant. That's pretty awesome. That's an awesome story. and And for how old he is and to remember what he learned, he was doing CPR and explaining to the adults what they needed to do.
01:56:20
Speaker
Now, unfortunately, the infant had passed away. i don't know what the complication was. But when I heard about this, it just it made me think about you know how valuable...
01:56:33
Speaker
camp badges, especially to these younger kids. And so when I found out about it, I called the district attorney's office and I said, Hey, like we have this kid that, you know, went to the camp. Um, he was doing CPR and an unresponsive infant, like all on his own.
01:56:47
Speaker
and I said, I think that's remarkable for somebody his age to try to be the hero of the day. Yeah. And so I said, would you guys be interested in maybe giving him, an award? Yeah.
01:57:01
Speaker
And so I had arranged for all of his peers because he was in elementary school. We had a big assembly. And so the kids came down and he was presented with an award for what he did.
01:57:12
Speaker
And there's actually, if you Google it, there's actually a whole article on him. Really? it talks about Camp Badge. Here's a picture of him holding and like his award. It's on Google. and And so I think at that point, that's when I really realized that what I'm doing Makes a difference. Yeah. Two years ago, two or three years ago, I had a kid who ended up graduating high school, but when he was in in middle school, he went to Camp Badge with his brother and everything.
01:57:41
Speaker
And so this was probably six or six or seven years he had been out of camp. Hadn't had anything, you know, obviously, because he's moved on and he's doing other things. His mom called me and said, hey, you know I just kind of wanted to let you know that My son you know went to Camp Badge and he was down by the river with some of his friends jumping off the rocks. And he said that she told me that his one friend had jumped in and didn't come back up. oh And she said that her son had, without thinking, dove into the water, found his friend on the bottom, pulled him out, did CPR on the side of the river and saved his life.
01:58:22
Speaker
that's awesome And when she asked him, like, how did you know what to do? He said, well, I can't badge. like we We did CPR training. He said, I remembered everything. yeah And so that kid's life was saved because he remembered or somewhat remembered, you know, what to do. The bravery to jump into a river like that to save somebody. out Very few adults that I think would probably do that for somebody that they didn't know yeah or whatever. But he he was able to save his life. And so.
01:58:49
Speaker
This was when she told me this, this was coming up close to Camp Badge graduation, which is what we do on a Friday. And so I went over to Micro Plastics and i said, hey, this is what happened. Can I get get an award made for him?
01:59:01
Speaker
And he didn't know anything about it. um But his mom brought him and I think his brother and I made him part of the ceremony. And I talked about how, you know, Camp Badge isn't just a summer program for kids that you know, are interested in police work, but it's stuff that they're to take
Engaging Students Through Law Enforcement Experience
01:59:17
Speaker
with them. And i i had them come up and explained everything and gave them an award for it, you know. But those are just like two examples of of stuff that Camp Badge has done for for some kids, you know. and How has it changed your life? it's a
01:59:35
Speaker
and It made me realize that as much work as it is to have Camp Badge and organize it and call people and try to put on the best program we can for the kids that um the stuff we're doing is life changing for some, right you know, remembering like what we did and why we did it and carrying that on into their lives outside.
01:59:59
Speaker
of of Camp Badge outside of school. A lot of the kids here to middle school have gone to Camp Badge. And part of what we talk about is it's not just about what you do here, but we want to teach you responsibility so that when you're in school,
02:00:13
Speaker
Be responsible for your grades. you know If there's a fight or something happens, you know always doing the right thing. and Don't just grab your phone and record it. Yeah. yeah And so you know a lot of that stuff I talk about you know while I'm in camp with the kids, that this this isn't about this week. you know I tell them I'm to follow up with your teachers and make sure you guys are behaving. Do I really do that?
02:00:37
Speaker
Maybe sometimes. Maybe. But it's all the same that it's not just about, you know, what we do there, but we want to teach the kids that there's not enough people in this world that do the right thing. You know, and I said, some old lady's on the side. She's got too many bags to carry. She lives across the street. Like, we gonna sit there and watch or are we going to ask her if she needs help? You know, that's the right thing to do.
02:01:00
Speaker
many Too many people these days do just sit there, grab their phone, record, and right or just ignore it. or Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of positive stuff that comes out of it. It's just, it's a lot of work. I'm it a lot, you know.
02:01:12
Speaker
Yeah. Do you got dates set up for this summer? Not yet. ah I'm thinking, I'm trying to figure things out because with my dad passing away, you know, I wanted to spend some time with my mom this summer.
02:01:25
Speaker
um And so I don't know how that's going affect camp. So I'm kind of waiting see how that plays out. But I'm sure it's not going to be a problem, like, getting kids to come, you know. Yeah, yeah.
02:01:37
Speaker
if If anybody is interested and want to keep up on it, where do they go? Facebook. I have of a Facebook account. I post a lot of stuff to it, updates, all that kind of stuff on what's happening. okay So there's a lot of followers and people that eventually... so I mean, I'm getting messages like, are you doing it this year? like People are waiting. and Yeah, yeah. And so i'm I'm due to post something here before too long.
02:02:02
Speaker
but But yeah, it's... It's a lot of work, but I think, like, at the end of the day, there's a lot of positives that come out of it. Yeah. You know, if if you're doing it right and you're doing it for the kids and not for some just social experiment or to make yourself look good, you know.
02:02:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you don't do it for almost 20 years if it's only making you look good. You do it for a few years and be like, cool, on to the next thing. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think leads into the other thing that you have sitting there in front of you. You got out of law enforcement. Mm-hmm.
02:02:34
Speaker
and now you're teaching again. How was that transition and how has that all been? So, funny story. I started at the high school and had been out of education for 16 years.
02:02:48
Speaker
So I remember going in and it was my first day back, my my first day being hired and I was sitting in on a class of some ninth graders who had come up from the middle school.
02:02:59
Speaker
And they were still struggling with reading, you know. And a lot of these kids, there were probably five or six in that class, they just feed off each other. I mean, it was behavior issues and things like that. And I remember coming in the first day and the department head for for special ed, he was just like, you know, just chill out, you know, observe, see how things are going, you know, we'll ease you back into it.
02:03:19
Speaker
And I'm sitting there and I'm watching. These kids keep looking over at me because like because I'm new, I'm in the classroom. And he pulls out a, it's a reading class and he pulled out a an article, right, not an article, but like a little story about some dude back in like the 1920s who went bankrupt. yeah You know, these kids aren't paying attention. yeah You know, they're goofing off, constantly having to bring them back on task.
02:03:41
Speaker
And I'm watching this and I'm like, man, like do I even want to do this? You know, like, do really want to get back into education? And that first day really kind of spoke to me and I was just going to play it out, go through the day, evaluate some stuff at the end or whatever.
02:03:58
Speaker
But I could not sit there and and watch like this lesson that was being taught when I know those kids wanted nothing to do with it. I mean, i don't think it would keep either of our attention reading something like that. It doesn't sound like it would.
02:04:12
Speaker
So I went home and I was contemplating like how the how the day went and I decided that you know I can't come in here and just observe what's going on. I got to do something. you know Because that's that's me. like I want to be involved.
02:04:26
Speaker
So I put together a lesson for the next day. So I come in, and it's the first block of the day. And I talk to the teacher, and I say, hey. Because he was again, he was like, yeah, i just sit, you know watch you know if you have questions. And I said, can I teach today?
02:04:40
Speaker
He was kind of caught off guard, you know, because I, yeah you know, why would you want to teach your second day in? He said, yeah. He's like, do you need me to give you any material? said, no, I have some stuff prepared. So I got up in front of them.
02:04:52
Speaker
oh All these kids that think they're ghetto, you know gangs, all that shit. right Tough guys, you know. And I got up in front of them and I introduced myself and I told them, you know, that used to be a police officer.
02:05:05
Speaker
Immediate hate. Oh, man. hate fucking cops, you know, because every experience they had was with police officers probably coming to their house for something. Yeah. Or negative talk from the parents. Yeah. Right. Right. man So I'm sitting there and i'm I'm telling him and immediately it was like this. I'm not going to listen to this dude. I hate cops. Right.
02:05:26
Speaker
So I figured I have to have a hook to get these kids. to trust me, you know what I mean, to be interesting and and other than some story they're reading, like I said, from the 1920s. So what I did was, is I went back into some USB drives I had and I found a police report I wrote. It was a drug arrest on the traffic stop.
02:05:46
Speaker
So I pulled it up, changed the names and all that kind of stuff. And so I went into class and I'm like, you know what, I'm going to teach the class off of a police report I wrote. i want to I want to see what what happens, you know.
02:06:00
Speaker
So I pull out this police report and I tell him, I said, you guys are about to look at a police report that I wrote couple of years ago. So it's on a drug arrest for a traffic stop that I made. And all of a sudden, like whoever wasn't paying attention kind of poked their head up and started listening.
02:06:18
Speaker
And so I handed out this report and we went through it together. We're reading it, you know, and questions started coming, you know. Like they were asking me about like search and seizure.
02:06:30
Speaker
They were asking me about, you know, traffic stops. And so all these teaching moments came into play with that one report. So not only did we we we read the support, this report, but they also had some other questions too about law enforcement and things like that. So led into a little bit more.
02:06:50
Speaker
But not only did we sit there and read this report, but we acted it out. So I lined up some chairs. I had a driver. I had a passenger. I had somebody that would be in the back seat. Then I had two people being the police officers.
Writing and Leadership Insights
02:07:03
Speaker
And I was explaining to them how important communication skills are and and treating people with respect. and And so we acted out this entire scenario.
02:07:13
Speaker
And that was a because I had kids participating in that activity. that from what the other teacher was telling me, never participated in anything.
02:07:25
Speaker
So that was the hook. yeah But because after that, all these other questions started coming. Every day I come into class, they were asking me about something else. But that's the only police report I read to them. But not that there's a reason behind that, but I kind of figured that a lot of these kids who have been in trouble, their age and everything else, and the reason they hated cops, well, let's talk about like, let's put you in their shoes. yeah what what what What does it feel like to be a police officer when you've got to explain to somebody why you pull them over? yeah and Of course, like I demonstrated some of that stuff and did it enough that they would be able to go up and do it themselves.
02:07:56
Speaker
But you know talking about conflict resolution and how do you deal with people that you're trying to talk to and a reason with when they don't want anything to do with you? Right. you know and and And like I said, from then on out, I made relationships with some of those kids that nobody's been able to.
02:08:13
Speaker
because of my prior career when I went all along when I just told them I used to be a police officer like they hated me after that they didn't hate me anymore. Yeah, they were interested. They wanted to and and from that day on they were like, can we do another report? Like they wanted to to to like do this again.
02:08:30
Speaker
And those kids are actually graduating this year and i'm gonna I'm gonna go up to the graduation for them, you know what i mean? Because I always told them if they made it that far. You gonna read them another report and act it out? Yeah, while we're while we're up on the yeah up on the stage.
02:08:46
Speaker
Have them act it out. Right. um
02:08:52
Speaker
But that was, like i said, a lot of times it's hard to build rapport, build relationships. But you kind of got to think outside the box. Yeah. And if it it might work, it might not work.
02:09:05
Speaker
And so that's just one example of like how I've used law enforcement in the school in this particular case was to gain that respect. and And it's worked.
02:09:16
Speaker
Yeah. You know. And so in the process of that, I always wanted to write a book. It's on my bucket list. And I'm thinking to myself like, but I have the time? Like what do i want to write about? Who's my audience going to be? Who wants to read about something?
02:09:34
Speaker
special ed teacher, right, that came in out of law enforcement. you know what I mean? Like, who's gonna want to read that book? So I started just writing stuff down over the course of a couple years, just different things I've seen and experiences.
02:09:47
Speaker
oh I had no intent whatsoever on publishing anything. It was just stuff i was putting together, pages and pages of stuff that I just, you know, putting on paper or anything my brain thought about.
02:10:00
Speaker
And so put it together. And i was I was online. I was looking something up, I don't know, and an ad came up for all these like publishing companies. And and I was like, well, I know I said I didn't want to like go any further than what I already wrote, but out of curiosity, like maybe I'll contact this place. Like good reviews, you know.
02:10:20
Speaker
See if they'd be interested in reading. Always got check them stars, right? Yeah. read ah Read the manuscript and the stuff I put together and see if it's worth moving forward with it. So I did. and So I hooked up with them and they had pretty much everything that I had written down at that point.
02:10:38
Speaker
And it wasn't organized. It wasn't like it was just bits and pieces of thoughts here and there on different topics. And they really helped me kind of organize the information that I had in the chapters, taking different parts that I'd written down, like as a side note somewhere and seeing where that would fit into the paragraphs and the chapters that I was doing.
02:10:59
Speaker
And in addition to to just that part, like the editing and helping me like combine that stuff, I was trying to work on like a cover. yeah you know And so I had a couple ideas. I had like three or four different covers that I thought about going with.
02:11:14
Speaker
And I actually was picking the brain of our librarian up at the high school. And I said, you know like what what grabs somebody's attention you know mean when it comes to books?
02:11:25
Speaker
And so I showed her a couple of the ones that I did and she's like, it's good, but like, I don't know necessarily that's going to like grab somebody's attention. Right. You know? And so I went back and I told the publishing company, I said, you know, I'm thinking about this cover. And I said, I want to do something that shows both of my careers.
02:11:45
Speaker
And that's interesting, that kind of pops if somebody sees it laying around or whatever. And I said, what if we did like a Superman t-shirt? Because we are heroes. I mean, police officers, but teachers. I know. I'm a Marvel guy. But everybody knows the Superman symbol. Right. So we use that as like the base. But then on one side of the shirt, I want to represent like graduation, you know, and a gown and maybe a hat. And then on the other side, a police uniform.
02:12:15
Speaker
So you're almost kind of like academics versus like the law enforcement side of what I've been through. And a Superman shirt in the middle kind of being that balance between what we do in the school as heroes versus what we do on the street as police officers.
02:12:32
Speaker
And and some some books and stuff on the side of the graduate, maybe set of handcuffs on the ground next to it. And so I put that together and they they worked on a cover for me.
02:12:43
Speaker
And I took that to the librarian up at the high school and she said, yes, like that's it. That's it. And so I told him to move forward with that. and And so they did. And I thought it really represented like what I was trying to do, you know.
02:12:57
Speaker
And so I went through, they helped me organize it. They edited like any grammar stuff, you know, things like that. And but for the most part, you know, other than a few organizational things, I mean, it was it was put together well, you know.
02:13:16
Speaker
And you get the final product and you titled it. Yeah. And so, and I actually had the title before I think I started working on the cover. And so it's pretty cool i figured like,
02:13:29
Speaker
You what would be something in the title that I could say that shows both careers? And so I came came up with like a retired cop's guide to school survival.
02:13:39
Speaker
oh And then from handcuffs to hall passes, navigating high school minutes. And my goal with it was to be very easy reading. yeah I mean, you know, you pick up a book and you're reading something that, you know, they're talking about all these high tech, like freaking words that you don't know what they mean. You know, they have these concepts in there that you have to stop and you have to think about. Like I wanted to just, I wanted it to be me.
02:14:02
Speaker
How would I say it? You know, i mean, my jargon and and the things that I think about somebody that were to pick up this book and be able to read through it and just relate. Right.
02:14:13
Speaker
Either emotionally, you know, or stuff that they've had in the classroom and different strategies, because I do talk about like the things that we do on on the street as police officers, like we talked about conflict resolution and building relationships like.
02:14:29
Speaker
Being able to write about that in a police officer stance, versus being able to do those same things as a teacher yeah and how they you know correlate to each other.
02:14:40
Speaker
And so we put it together. And I have examples of stuff in here that like I was talking about my my first first day. I talk about that in the book in the first chapter about how going back in education, I used a piece of my law enforcement past to build those relationships with the students in the school.
02:15:02
Speaker
And how, you know, there's other things too, obviously, that that I've used from being a police officer, but a lot of it was trial and error, you know, as far as those types of relationship building things that I wanted to do. so you kind of have to find that niche, but I talk a lot in the book about just that, you know, going in and what I observed and the things that i've I've had happen like in the classroom and we laugh about after the fact, you know? Right. And so it's easy reading, you know, it's something that people can relate to. Even everybody I've talked to that's read it said, I could i could see myself sitting there with you and you telling me this.
02:15:37
Speaker
That's pretty good. In my words, you what I'm saying? You're good storyteller. Yeah. And so that was good to hear because that was kind of my goal you know with the book. What other kind of feedback have you had? ah A lot of it was easy to read. A lot of it was was relatable.
02:15:53
Speaker
um My twist on things, you know, because a lot of the book is what I've experienced. You know what I mean? Not not like I don't talk about...
02:16:04
Speaker
evidence-based programs. i don't talk about, you know, all these things out there that that people who train educators, like what they should be doing. And I'm very unorthodox with the way I teach. And I talk in a book about that, about how this might not be something that is best practice, but I'm not using it because I don't like it. I'm using it because it's not going to work for my kids, you know? And so sometimes finding what that one thing is,
02:16:32
Speaker
can be difficult, you might not not know, you need to think about it, but that's what the report was for. So it was very easy for me to know and recognize and observe, like the things we do in law enforcement, that this might be something that those kids can either relate to or are interested in yeah And so it kind of it's kind of a guide to all the funny things that you see in high school, um the peers and, you know, people going, you know the kids going through these transformations and trying to find themselves. Yeah, trying to find out where they fit in. but
02:17:05
Speaker
But the book is is mostly about, like i said, my experience is the stuff I did in law enforcement versus how I could change it around a little bit and adapt it to what I'm doing now, you know, and so.
02:17:17
Speaker
The people that have read it that have given me feedback, like I said, they they're real big on like the fact that it's easy to read, relatable. you They could see people that know me, that that know how I teach and things like that, said that like like I could visualize you doing that, but you know which is what I wanted. I wanted it to be an and an individual you know type of of book that people who know me,
02:17:42
Speaker
like laugh. they They know like my personality. And so it makes sense, you know, so. But yeah, so we published it. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles um internationally that the company that I went with out of Florida, they they they work internationally as well. So they push that out there to advertise it. And so people think I saw a couple of books bought out in England.
02:18:09
Speaker
Cool. So, yeah. That's pretty cool. I like how how you you were describing basically doing some unorthodox stuff. I feel like I read something or heard something recently where educators are really almost moving away from...
02:18:29
Speaker
here's the program, here's what we're teaching, it's going to be the exact same for everybody, because they realize every kid, every person is different. You have to to be able to be flexible and and mold to what's going to help them, which is basically what you described on your first day back.
02:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and you know, it's, I guess, kind of I talk about finding that niche and what's going to work for your kids because everybody goes to trainings, you know, and and and they go like leadership, for example, they go to a leadership training, get a certificate and come back and expect that whatever they learned in leadership, it's just going to happen. It's supposed to work. Yeah, it's not going to work. No, you know, and and and it's part of this because in special ed, you have IEPs, they're individualized education plans. So each kid's IEP is different based upon what their needs are.
02:19:18
Speaker
So to sit there and like write a book and say, this is best practice, doesn't make any sense to me because the stuff that I've done probably wouldn't pass any type of college class. you know But does it work?
02:19:34
Speaker
Absolutely. And if it works, then use it. yeah yeah you know Just because it's not the standard or best practice doesn't mean that it's not going to get to the kids and they're going to learn. yeah Well, it's like what being an FTO. You were an FTO forever. I i don't think we actually talked. Well, maybe a little bit. But that's what we say.
02:19:50
Speaker
You have a toolbox. Here's a few tools. They might work. They might not. And you're going learn more to put in that toolbox from your next FTO. It's all it's all the same thing. Right. That's awesome. Yeah.
02:20:02
Speaker
And yeah, you do have to go put it in new practice. It's not just going to magically happen and magically work. And, you know, they talk about all these different leadership styles and all that kind of stuff. And I talk a little bit about leadership in the book and how you don't know which type of leadership you want to implement with your people because just it's like you go to the training and they give you these ideas.
02:20:24
Speaker
You can be this kind of leader. You can be this kind of leader, whatever. But you can't bring that back and expect to be and and say, OK, I'm going to pick you I'm going to be this leader because that may work. You might make a good choice.
02:20:37
Speaker
But what's wrong with taking each one of those definitions of all those different types of leaders, looking at them and what they mean and what you do with that and match them up?
02:20:48
Speaker
Yeah, mold them together. You may not have a name for the type of leadership and the things that you do, but what you're doing works because you know the needs of your people. Yeah. and And I think now I've worked for departments where chiefs would go to these meetings, you know, sergeants and lieutenants they're like, oh, I'm a leader, I'm a leadership and this is what we're going to be doing. Well, in my mind,
02:21:09
Speaker
your Your people that work under you don't adapt to your leadership style. It should be the other way around. You should be adapting to what they need in a leader. And unfortunately, that mindset doesn't go anywhere because you have egos, type a personalities, you know, you want things done a certain way.
02:21:26
Speaker
But let's think outside the box and how we can take all this knowledge we have of being a leader and what what it means, what the definition is, You've got to take that back and find out what works with your people, not what you envision a leader to be.
02:21:40
Speaker
right And if you can't learn to do that, you're going to lose lose people. They're going to leave. yeah You're not going to be able to keep their attention enough to train them and feel like they actually know something that they're going to be successful. like it's It's backwards sometimes. And I think a lot of people that are in leadership positions...
02:22:00
Speaker
um have trouble with or trying to implement this type of one type of leadership when one type's not going to work. You're going to have to take a little bit from each one of those. Just like an FTO we talk about, you're going to have multiple FTOs. Take bits and pieces of each one of those guys because you're learning what how you want to be as a cop and put them together. yeah you know And so you know kind of back and forth with you know people choosing like I'm just going to do this or just do that.
02:22:28
Speaker
We live in a world now where you might have guys that are you know coming in there that there's millennials and they want to do things a certain way. But you have older guys who, you know, you're Gen X and they're doing things and seeing things a different way. Like one leadership style isn't going to work.
02:22:43
Speaker
Right. but I think us as humans, we we just need to have something to actually like write down. And writing down Frankenstein-type leadership it doesn't flow very well. But that's basically what you're describing. We need to take all of these pieces, put them together, and figure out what's going to work for Johnny and and Carlos and David and you know be flexible for all of them. Yeah.
02:23:09
Speaker
And I haven't really told anybody yet, so you're the first, but I'm working on... Well, there's going to a lot more than just me. Pause it real quick. No, but I am... I'm working on a second book called Policing Poor Leadership.
02:23:23
Speaker
Cool. And what do we do when you're working under leadership that is destroying the department, killing morale, and there's no attempt whatsoever by that leadership to recognize you know your officer's needs and being able to find that common ground and lead through what they need, like we talked earlier, not what you think is right.
02:23:50
Speaker
right And trying to develop a new type of leadership. That's like FTO. You have all these different different ah programs for FTO. San Jose, right? Isn't that one of them? San Jose, Reno, I think there's a bunch of other kind of bastardized type ones. And each one of those teach training a little bit differently. Correct.
02:24:10
Speaker
And so you have agencies that, you know, we do the San Jose part. So we're going learn the San Jose type of FTOing and how to be a cop because that's what we've been doing for years. Right. Well, now, you know, why pick one type of FTO program instead of...
02:24:26
Speaker
Take a little bit from each one of them. there's nothing in There's nothing in the law that says you have to pick one leadership style or one type of FTO. And you know damn well that there's going to be somebody in that mix that just doesn't get it.
02:24:39
Speaker
yeah So create an FTO program that involves all of those different methods, theories, the stuff that you want your guys to learn. And make yours. Yeah. yeah i don't I don't know. I just don't understand sometimes why it's like that. Because just the other day, The the same sergeant that I was talking to on Wednesday, he asked me because he knows I've had a long history of being a field training officer and I've actually taught.
02:25:04
Speaker
And gone through trainings for both the San Jose model and the Reno model. He's like, well, what do you think of the Reno model? And ultimately, I don't really like the Reno model per se. i like pieces of it. yeah And that's what we ended up talking about. I'm like, I like the San Jose model a little bit more for specific reasons. it also has its drawbacks. I'm like, what you need to do since you're restructuring yours is.
02:25:26
Speaker
Make your own. Make it work, especially for where you're at. He's he's a large rural county sergeant with us with a small staff. There's, what, like 10 or 11? Yeah. And I'm like, make it your own. That's what you need to do. He's like, so if I was you, I'd go to this training.
02:25:42
Speaker
Now you've got both sides, and then you make your own. Yeah. So it's funny you brought it up because that literally just happened a couple days ago. Yeah. But it's... It's about your guys' needs and, you know, theyre they have to feel like they have a voice. If you don't allow that, if you don't allow them to put it to give input and, you know, what they think will work for them, then, you know, you're going to pick something it may or may not work, but in most cases, it's something that if they took that particular way that you want to and said, can you, like, this is what we're going be doing. I want to get to your guys' thoughts. What do you think in here works for you as an individual?
02:26:21
Speaker
you know, and afterwards getting that information back, the feedback, looking at and saying, okay, if we're looking at the Reno, like this isn't going to work. Not with my guys, not with what they think will help them at least. Right. Same thing with San Jose.
02:26:34
Speaker
And then coming up with your own, I think in this day and age where you're taking multiple things from these different programs is, is more valuable than it is to pick one but and hope that it works. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
02:26:50
Speaker
the ah The other thing, too, that you brought up is is you know being being in charge and and running an agency or or any business, honestly. I think a lot of people get stuck in the title.
02:27:02
Speaker
Now I'm the manager. Now I'm the chief. Now I'm the the whatever title it might have. And they think that everybody, and I guess maybe this is just my own opinion, but then they they start thinking everybody works for them. When in other other words, what I kind of heard you saying is,
02:27:18
Speaker
it should be kind of the other way around. That manager, that chief should be working for his people and setting the example, building the mission, setting the values and and and all of that. And I think a lot of that gets missed with ego.
02:27:31
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's not easy by any means, but you're expected to be able to lead. And for example, I mean, anytime there's leadership change, there's going to be things done that guys don't agree with, you know.
02:27:48
Speaker
But you really have to, I think, take a step back if you are a leader and evaluate how you're doing things and also taking into consideration how it's affecting your guys.
02:28:00
Speaker
Recently, I was teaching out of school that had some leadership change and the decisions that were being made were not in the best interest of the students, were not in the best interest of the parents.
02:28:13
Speaker
It was a dictatorship of... You will do it this way. And that's it. Ideas on you know things that they wanted the classroom teachers to do that.
02:28:26
Speaker
Serve no purpose. But the reason it's being done is because they went to a couple of training sessions over the summer and got all these crazy ideas from whoever was doing the presentation, bringing it back and trying to implement it without even talking to the teachers about it to where they could talk to their classes and say, hey, like, what you think about this? And it's a disaster.
02:28:49
Speaker
and And people leave, you know, and it's just oh it's that. ego, like you said, and I'm in charge and that's just the way it's going to be. And yeah I'm sorry, but there's no room for that in law enforcement. There's no room in it for, with education, you know, there's no room for that really in anything. No. And, and ultimately at the end of the day, when you're talking about education, everything you do, it affects the kids.
02:29:16
Speaker
At the end of the day, it's the kids that will either suffer from the decisions that are being made or the policies that are being implemented, or, um you know just in general, how they feel at school, whether they feel safe, whether they don't. And that's where kids, they choose to go online or they, you know, choose to i'll get their GED instead of finish out high school because there's a usually a common denominator on what the issue is. yeah But it's not being addressed by anybody above that individual person. It's just it just allowed to happen.
02:29:48
Speaker
of And it sucks that it's that way. But I mean,
02:29:54
Speaker
yeah you know Kids ultimately, at the end of the day are the ones that are suffering.
02:29:59
Speaker
Well, I think we've talked about a lot in book. Yeah, for sure. Retired Cops Guide to School Survival. you said Amazon, Barnes & Noble, probably all the big ones. Yeah. When are you going to actually sit down and record the audio book of it?
02:30:16
Speaker
of this. um I have the option to it. Oh, I was being smart. You're going to? That'd be awesome. Yeah. um There's an option to do that. I just have to look into it. But
Personal Challenges and Retirement Reflections
02:30:25
Speaker
when I was back with my mom over the over the summer, or not over summer, but just recently, i was back for about a week. Yeah. And I hooked up with some of the guys I used to work with.
02:30:36
Speaker
And we were talking about that, you know, because I got diagnosed with Parkinson's. Yeah. And so, you know, it's it's taken a toll on me a little bit with you know, anxiety and some psychological stuff, and knowing that people see my tremors and the stuff I'm going through. And I know they see it.
02:30:54
Speaker
and and And psychologically for me, it's like, it's hard to deal with that way. Yeah. know, I don't want to be walking around telling everybody I got Parkinson's disease. So I came up with this story for my students. They're like, why does your, why does your hand always shake? And I said, you're not going to believe this, but I was going on a hike and I found a baby deer that was trapped.
02:31:15
Speaker
and ah ah bear and a bear trap. I said, now while I was trying to release that deer, a mountain lion came from out of the woods, jumped on my back, and I'm trying to fight off this mountain lion while I'm trying to save this deer.
02:31:31
Speaker
And in the process of all that, I got struck by lightning. I said, so I've got these tremors on the left side of my body for trying to be a hero, trying to save that deer. I said, it's crazy. they're like, really?
02:31:42
Speaker
like, that's awesome, you know. Then I bought it, but eventually, you know, i kind of, some of them were like, no, you didn't. Like, that's stupid. what do you You know, oh but it's it's funny because, like, that's that's kind of like I talk about that hook, you know, and talking to kids about stuff and making up some stories every once in a while.
02:32:01
Speaker
how How has that the diagnosis been for you? What kind of life changes have have you done or not done or, you know, how is it? I think what really made me try to figure out what was going on was I remember I was on a felony stop and there was two guys in a vehicle that they were being followed by, I think, an unmarked and the guy had felony warrants. And so, of course, yeah I was working that day. So I got them stopped and we're doing this felony stop and sheriff's department was there. So a couple of guys to my left and we had them at gunpoint and I could not hold my gun straight.
02:32:37
Speaker
are You lefty when you see righty, but my support hand. ah Yeah, my support hand wasn't allowing me to keep a steady bead on what I was doing. Yeah. And i think it was at that point after that incident, I was like, something's wrong. You know what i mean? Because I've been putting it off. You know, i was just thinking I work out. I'll be good. My body's going to heal itself with whatever's going on. not going to worry about it, but it got worse.
02:33:00
Speaker
And so I did all these testing and and things and I got diagnosed. And so we tried all these different medications. None of them really worked. I'm taking one now that helps me, like but I've got to take it like and like three times a day.
02:33:15
Speaker
And I still have it, especially under stress and anxiety. But um would I ever be able to be a cop again? Like I would probably not. you no ah As much as you'd want to. Right. You know deep down it could be a liability.
02:33:30
Speaker
Maybe get somebody. here That would suck. Yeah. That sucks. And so sorry while I was back in Pennsylvania, the one department that I worked for, oh wanted to do a retirement.
02:33:40
Speaker
And so I met with those guys and they had a retirement badge made up and nice I got my Leosa and, you know, those are the guys that like I would live and die for, you know, and and always kept in touch with them.
02:33:56
Speaker
yeah So if I was going to say I was retired from a particular police department, it would be with them, yeah you know, because that was where we had true camaraderie and brotherhood and had each other's backs. Because we know that and when you get out of law enforcement, the people that you would have gave your life for in that department, when you leave and you change careers, you don't hear from them. yeah They don't care what you're doing. And so if that's the way it's going to be, I mean, that speaks volumes in terms of like who they are.
02:34:23
Speaker
right You know, I would have given my life for you. And now because I'm not in the profession anymore, it's like I'm a stranger, you know, like you don't matter. But those guys, know, since I've been out here and it's been 10 years now, I always keep in touch with them.
02:34:37
Speaker
And like I said, they would be ah they would be the department that I would be proud to say I i retired from. it was they? um So we have a like almost kind of like a valley. We have like three departments that kind of all run together, like a regional thing. you Yeah. And um and so there's there's Leetstale, there's Swickley and and Edgeworth. And we always work the same crew and we're right on the suburbs of the city. You know, so we were busy.
02:35:03
Speaker
um and we would always work the same shift because we had like this night crew you know and so those three departments together retired me so that's awesome yeah so we went to dinner and i got presented with some stuff and um but yeah so they give you a cane and like some glasses to make you feel old because you were you know retired right and we were at hibachi so each of us put our hands on the hot hot plate you know kind of like You know, you cut your hand, it's blood brothers for life. We use the hot hibachi stove. although
02:35:34
Speaker
That's awesome. No, not really. No, i but it is. I get it, though. I mean, it yeah. Well, Josh, I think we've touched on quite a bit. It was pretty yeah pretty awesome.
02:35:46
Speaker
You know, you got you got teacher, cop, teacher, author. you know, it's comfortable. So because you figure started in education, you know, trans went into law enforcement.
02:36:00
Speaker
Now I'm back in education. And so it's it's like come full circle for me. you know And it's helping you. It's helping you relate with your kids. It's helping you. You teach, you know, you're coming up with your own ways to to teach.
02:36:12
Speaker
So that's that's awesome. Yeah, that's pretty cool. If there's one last thing you want to leave with anybody, teacher, nurse, doctor, cop, what would it be?
02:36:25
Speaker
So I would, there's a couple of things, but I think the most important thing that I'm always preaching, I talk about it with my students, my kids at home. Um, you know, I bring it up in conversation.
02:36:38
Speaker
I gave two examples of, you know, those kids doing CPR. Um, and it's one thing that, like I said, it's, it's, It should be common sense, but it's not. And it's always do the right thing. you know if you're If you have the opportunity to help somebody, help them. you know if you If you see one of your friends, or even my kids, brother and sister, i was like, if Sebastian's getting picked on,
02:37:02
Speaker
You know, what would be the right thing to do? Go up somebody's ass. And so Gabriella's like, I'd stick up for him and she's done this. Yeah. So, I mean, but it's not just about the family stuff. It's being in a community. You know, if somebody breaks down or they're changing a tire, know, that kind of stuff, you know, do the right thing. The right thing is to help people, you know, and as a law enforcement officer, you know, it's it's at 100%. I mean, if you're not 100% sure that that person committed a crime, let it go. Yeah. You know, if you're a teacher and you're not 100% that, You know, the fight that happened in the hallway was instigated by one person.
02:37:35
Speaker
You know, get more information to find out what happened or let it go. yeah You know, and so I don't think there's enough people in the community and in society these days with everything going on, looking at the protests with the ICE people, you know, the ICE department and all that, of doing the right thing.
02:37:50
Speaker
And everybody wants the drama. Everybody wants the, they want to be a bystander to everything that's happening when cops are getting beat up and you're videotaping it. yeah Do the right thing. You know, and I think until that happens, at least in society to have that mindset, you know, going continue to have have issues. You know, officers getting killed, but you just members of the general public get involved in shit that they shouldn't be getting killed. Yeah. You know, do the right thing. And that's what I'll leave you with.
02:38:20
Speaker
So, well, you're inspiring with all the crap that you do. it's not even crap. I'm just being a smart ass. We have that relationship. but know. Well, thanks for sharing your story. Sure. You know, maybe we'll have you back on when your next book comes out, and I actually read your first one since you're giving me that one there, I think. Yep, you can have it. Sweet.
02:38:38
Speaker
I'll get to reading it. And then on also, and pertains to book, on April 23rd, we're doing a book signing. Oh, cool. So the Rifle Library wanted to put some of the books in their in her catalog, and they said the best, what they typically do is just have like a,
02:38:53
Speaker
a short like signing session, you know, a presentation on the book and that kind of thing. So that'll be cool. It's a free event, you know. and What day was that? April 23rd. Yeah.
02:39:03
Speaker
It's on a Thursday. You're going to dress half gown and half uniform? Yep. That'll be cool. I got it all set. Really? That's going to be awesome. not really. But no, you should. You should though. All right. Well, thanks for being here. Yeah, man.
02:39:20
Speaker
And that's Josh. A guy who's seen two sides of service in a way a lot of us don't get to. He's been in the classroom, currently in the classroom, and he's been in a patrol car.
02:39:31
Speaker
If there's one thing that stands out, it's how much of this job and life in general comes back to one simple idea. Do the right thing. Not the easy thing. Not the popular thing.
02:39:44
Speaker
Just the right thing. From talking someone through their worst worst moment on a call to standing in front of a classroom trying to reach kids who don't trust you yet.
02:39:54
Speaker
It's all the san same foundation, communication, patience, and showing up for people when it matters. You know, and that's probably the bigger takeaway from this. This job just, it's not just about what happens in uniform. It's about what you carry afterwards.
02:40:11
Speaker
The impact you leave and the people you help Sometimes you don't even realize that you helped. Josh is a good example of that. And if this conversation hit home for you, or you know someone who needs to hear it, share it with them.
02:40:27
Speaker
And if you have a story of your own, whether you're in law enforcement, you're a family member, or you're just someone with perspective worth hearing, reach out. That's what this is all about. Until next time, here's both sides of the badge.