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How Are Asia's Data Centres Being Built?
125 Plays1 year ago
This week sees Jason and Carlos diving into the world of data centres and the unique construction challenges they present.
The duo enlist the expertise of Sean Hubert, Lendlease's head of planning for Asia, to get to grips with the demanding coordination of data centres, the role planners should play when it comes to project planning, as well as the increasing energy strain that data centres are causing.
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Transcript
Introduction to Offsite Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
How do you think about and with your experience in like other complicated buildings, what's unique?
00:00:10
Speaker
Did anyone just get that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I started typing. That's going to stay in. That's staying in. I thought I said something. I bet he's sweating. No one's going to know that. Buzzword bingo or something. I'm just going to pick up from where I was so he can't edit around it and stay in. So with your experience with
00:00:40
Speaker
You're listening to the Offsite Podcast with Jason and Carlos, where we talk all things construction and technology. Join us for discussions with industry leaders and insights into the latest trends in construction. Welcome back to the Offsite Podcast.
Growth and Challenges of Data Centers
00:00:56
Speaker
So today, we're going to dive into a topic that we've had on the docket for a while, data centers. So it's an enormous area of growth
00:01:08
Speaker
It's reshaping, I guess, the global economy. Just some background and stats from some research around by 2027, global data center CapEx is on track to reach about 400 billion. The demand for data center power, so the consequential infrastructure is expected to drive around 50 billion of CapEx in just US power generation alone.
00:01:34
Speaker
And there was an expectation from this year, 2024 through to 2027. So over that period, an increase in CAPEX across transmission distribution generation of about 38% globally. That's all been driven by the demand for data centers, which some element of that is this AI boom that's happening around the world.
00:01:59
Speaker
Within that, Asia is emerging as a key region for data center growth. Countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, India are heavily investing in infrastructure for data centers. For instance, Malaysia is attracting a ton of investment with initiatives like Greater Kuala Lumpur.
00:02:19
Speaker
Data center construction is unique. It brings its own set of challenges, techniques that differ from traditional infrastructure or building projects. There's specific climate systems, there's power requirements and redundancy, and security as well as a major concern for data centers. And so for folks that don't interact with this every day, these data centers, specifically what would be called like a hyperscale data center,
00:02:48
Speaker
the kind operated by Google Cloud, AWS, Azure, Microsoft, power a massive chunk of the internet that we use every day. And those folks account for about two thirds of all data center investment.
Meet Sean Hubert: A Unique Perspective
00:03:04
Speaker
So today what we wanted to do is dive into a discussion around what makes data center construction distinct, what techniques might make sense from other projects and what might not work as effectively.
00:03:20
Speaker
And so joining today is Carlos. So two people that have never delivered a data center. So I thought we'd do a podcast where we guess about how they're delivered. Uh, no, we're not. Um, also joining us is Sean Hubert. Sean is the head of planning for Asia at land lease. Sean, thank you very much for taking the time and joining us. No problems.
00:03:42
Speaker
The couple of things Carlos about Sean that are unique and distinct. First of all, he's about the same age as you and I, which makes me as I'm sitting at home in a sweater that I've been wearing all day think, what have I done with the last 15 years of my life?
00:03:59
Speaker
More importantly, Sean is a construction engineer in disguise with his background in similar roles myself, which makes him, and I guess prefacing this with no offense to all the great planners that I work with daily, an extremely practical planning manager ahead of planning planner.
00:04:18
Speaker
I previously, it was quite an old episode. I said, uh, all the best planners are like, we're engineers first. And I actually got an email off the back of that of someone like, Hey, I've been a plan in my whole life. And I find it quite offensive that you've just suggested I'm no good because I wasn't an engineer. So now's the time. Now's the time for that. Now's the time for that bleeping technique that Oli was just telling us about. Yeah.
00:04:45
Speaker
Name and shame. No, I think all the best QS's used to be engineers as well. Is that true? No. Sean, bit of context. I'm a QS and Jason, Jason likes to, I think he questions the existence of them at times because in Australia, the engineer obviously does everything. They sort of do the engineering side as the commercial, but yeah, we'll push that argument. Engineers are jacks of all trades, jacks of all trades in Australia, including planning.
00:05:14
Speaker
And I've got to say, there's an interesting boundary between expectations of, you know, engineers in the planning space. But I've got some pretty strong held views about, you know, planning ownership and program ownership. But we can we can definitely. That is that's 100%. That's 100% on the docket. Yeah. So maybe to maybe to like start in this data center conversation, Sean,
Complexities in Data Center Construction
00:05:37
Speaker
With your experience in Asia, it being an area where there's a lot of data center development, I've seen a project awards to a late in Asia, Len Lisa building, at least one that I'm aware of. How do you think about, and with your experience in like other complicated buildings, is there anything specifically out of data centers that jumps out that makes them uniquely complicated?
00:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, there's a big part for me, which is about sort of a distance of integration in different jobs. And by that, I mean sort of closeness of follow on trades, but also timing of deliveries and lead times and those sorts of things. And data centers are one which are typically low rise. So there's really not a huge amount of time between structures launching and running off.
00:06:25
Speaker
and then having to follow in with subsequent trades. So I'd actually consider data centers sort of one of the most compressed kind of planning efforts, which require so much coordination and engagement, more so than some other jobs, which have a little bit more time available to consider different disciplines work as the project evolves. So they're fast-paced,
00:06:48
Speaker
As I said, they're very, very coordinated and integrated. And you mentioned a few sort of topics or niches around data centers, around calling systems, around security, even around some power generation and incoming infrastructure into the plots and centers. That all makes them a really fast-paced job.
00:07:06
Speaker
And in terms of the delivery model, is it common to sub everything or sub a majority that I'm assuming there's a lot of specialized elements in
Regional Construction Methods
00:07:17
Speaker
there? I reckon that's horses for courses for where you're operating just depending on sort of supply chain capacity and also
00:07:24
Speaker
quality and capability. A good example is a data center recently built in Japan was managed through a general contractor, but they did go through to all subcontractors for different disciplines. It was a structural steel structure, which certainly allowed a lot of sort of fast-paced and modular style approach. But then in
00:07:46
Speaker
a country like Malaysia, we're actually building a data center that will be in situ. So, you know, reinforced concrete in situ, no pre-cast components, and still trying to achieve, you know, large-band, column-free data halls. So it really does come down to, you know, local capability. And at the end of the day, you know, providers like a Latens or a Lend Lease are able to operate in accordance with that local capability and try and get the best outcome possible at the end of the day.
00:08:13
Speaker
In terms of the like the example there of in situ, presumably defense against natural disasters and things like that for data centers is super important. Does that differ how you would build like a typical concrete kind of warehouse structure? Is it fundamentally different? Or is it quite similar? Yeah, I think it's again, it's sort of situational. So you do your risk based assessment on the plot of land at which you're actually, you know, proposing to build a data center. So
00:08:37
Speaker
anything in Japan has to be designed with seismic considerations, so certainly the center going up there had really significant seismic isolation devices, a lot of dampers going into it, but I'd say it's actually more so the plot that takes priority in terms
Risk Assessments in Data Center Locations
00:08:53
Speaker
of
00:08:53
Speaker
assessing whether it's suitable for a data center. That is proximity to power is a key piece and it's going to be fascinating to see how that unfolds over the course of the next few years, particularly given people's different sort of emissions targets and how their data centers will play into that because if everyone is trying to go green, can they actually also support their surge in data center demand, particularly this new AI sort of constructive data centers?
00:09:19
Speaker
But coming back to sort of natural disasters, yeah, it's one of the first and highest level sort of risk assessments played over a particular site. You know, flood risks and another good example is having to build up the site, you know, where we currently are in Malaysia in order to help prevent against, you know, one in 100 years sort of events. So it does come into the sort of foundation of the entire longevity and sustainability of a particular site.
Energy Consumption and Sustainability
00:09:47
Speaker
You touched on, obviously, the amount of energy that's actually used to run these data centers from the consumption point of view and sustainability. I had a thought this morning. There's probably some scientific reason why this is just not possible. Olu, get your shower thought sound effect alert going.
00:10:07
Speaker
They obviously produce a lot of heat and there's quite substantial cooling systems. Do any of them use that heat to generate energy? Yeah, and can they recycle in some way? Not that I'm aware of, only because I think it's so outside of core operation, which is just keeping those servers running in an efficient capacity.
00:10:28
Speaker
But I mean, I really, I like simplifying complex things. And for me, a data center is just a big fridge with a heap of batteries and, you know, extra power supply. Yeah, exactly. It's the cold room and the test coats. Yeah. It's just got a lot of computers in it. So, yeah, if you, you know, if you do start breaking down your power bill at home, the fridge is one of the biggest consumers all the time. So data sets is right up there and then playing into, you know, long term sustainability and
00:10:58
Speaker
as I said, different governments and initiatives to try and reduce emissions and ensure they have clean generation of energy. To that effect, Singapore has put a moratorium on the construction of any new data centres for a period of time because it has such an impact on their power consumption.
00:11:15
Speaker
public interventions I guess is the right way of stating it. I can imagine in the UK people up in arms around energy consumption and things like that but I guess you don't see it on the news so it's probably not a thing. I think it's going to be pretty well you know not necessarily hidden but I know that data center operators will go to pretty
00:11:33
Speaker
far lengths just to make sure that they can demonstrate that they are sustaining or so that's sourcing sustainable power in order to support their data centers because there isn't going to be an industry I think like it and a power demand from it certainly evolving in the next you know decade so as I said it's fascinating to see how it plays.
Impact on Local Infrastructure
00:11:56
Speaker
Yeah exactly like they are a lot of them are net zero anyway so they must be yeah
00:12:00
Speaker
It's even in their own interests. It's not even good, I guess, in relation to the environmental targets. But if you know that you are data center 5 out of another 20 that are going to be billed, there's a risk that the incremental data centers put your power supply at risk as they more and more come online. And so it makes business sense to make sure that you've got that lock.
00:12:26
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's already straining some local infrastructure. So there are weights on power to sites of up to, you know, five to six years. So there's a huge impact on, yeah, as I said, local infrastructure to actually try and activate sites for uses data centers, which means
00:12:48
Speaker
sorry, the sites that do have power are absolute hot property. Sorry, I'm going to drag this back to, I'm going to drag this back to.
Coordination Among Trades
00:12:55
Speaker
We're stuck on Carlos's warm shower thought, where I was thinking like, oh, I wonder, data centers generate a lot of heat. So if I put my engineer construction hat on and you were talking about like, you've got this big, you've got this big footprint where lots of trades can get in like simultaneously almost.
00:13:16
Speaker
I'm interested to understand the dynamics of the, of the, of the typical specialist trades and contractors that would come on. If I put this politely, I guess, you know how sometimes you have subcontractor trades that kind of turn up on site, kind of like the, uh, like a character in like a first person shooter, just kind of like, I'm ready and waiting. Tell me what to do. Sort of like, I'm ready boss. What do women do?
00:13:41
Speaker
And then other trades, they kind of like they've got their own plan, they've got a mission, they're in and out, you just have to like give them a space and give them four days and an escalator goes in, for example. What what are the sort of what is the dynamic of the typical trades on like the data center fit out?
00:13:58
Speaker
I think as I mentioned before, it's uber coordinated and they have to be because the space that's sort of available interstitial space for all of the services and particularly with the sort of volume of cooling services and HVAC pipes and then on top of that, all of your network cabling and power cabling
00:14:22
Speaker
It is one of the most dense kind of configurations that I've ever come across. And so the only way to actually effectively fit out a data center is with this uber level of coordination. But you will still typically have separate contractors, you know, delivering each of their scopes.
00:14:40
Speaker
So it really does require a very, very firm grip on coordination, otherwise it will end in tears. I'm not going to suggest that it's, you know, any different to most kind of building types when it comes to a fit up approach. It's just that it needs to be so much more well oiled and a much better understanding of, let's say, a flow of work and available space amongst trades such that it can be done within any kind of realms of a program or timescale.
00:15:09
Speaker
And so I'd imagine there's a lot of design coordination that happens because of that type of data.
On-Site Planning and Execution
00:15:15
Speaker
And then when it comes to actually sequential execution of the work coordination, where do you see a lot of that happening? Is it solving a lot of that at the master schedule planning level? Or where does a lot of that sit?
00:15:33
Speaker
Honestly, I would actually prefer to see it on the ground on a routine basis. I'm a huge advocate for, I think it was a Dwight D. Eisenhower quote, that plans are useless, but planning is essential.
00:15:49
Speaker
And that's a bit of a mantra that i sort of operate by. Carlos has got that tattooed on. It's so real and it still applies so much today and it's great to have a piece of paper which captures your thoughts but actually it's the process of having discussed those thoughts and you know and certainly making sure there's a breadth of understanding of
00:16:10
Speaker
sequence of resource requirement of area across teams, that is important. That's what's critical to actually the planning efforts in my mind. And it all comes back to communication and the quality of communication. So the essence of good planning is good communication. And this is where I think often planners actually hold the key is because nine times out of 10 highly technical people aren't necessarily the best communicators and they do have quite a narrow lens about
00:16:38
Speaker
you know, what they're there to do, as you sort of mentioned. So to be able to break down, you know, competing interests and be able to stitch a series of, you know, different personnel together who have different drivers to achieve a PreciseSync outcome is where, you know, our planet can add huge amounts of value. So when in the concept or in the construct of a data center, they become very, very important to help, yeah, help achieve a good outcome.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I think if I reflect on what you're saying, you've got like this, you've got a situation where you've got a large footprint of where you could work, which means where you do work is probably a lot of resource driven constraints. If we were to talk planning language in my view, I don't know whether this is a correct statement, but that lends itself. If you try to do that too much in advance, you can very easily get into the state of over planning something.
Master Schedule Planning
00:17:28
Speaker
Cause when you get it on the ground and the facts are different.
00:17:32
Speaker
Correct. Absolutely. Plans are only as good as the day that you've drawn them up because the next day for a Mike Tyson, Tyson quote, everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth. And that happens on a daily on construction business, construction sites. That's exactly why there's a discipline associated with planning to help resolve all of those issues.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so, yeah, it's definitely not sort of the master plan level. Yes, you know, high level sequence and concept of sequence of trades, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty, it's got to be a level of hardcore onsite planning and to an extent production control, you know, binary outcomes of yes or no, did you or did not achieve what you're meant to do today in order to then evolve the plan that, you know, the next few days ahead.
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah, so there's like, there's like those types of projects where they're probably like, they benefit from a lot of thought at that master schedule planning level, or they're kind of that they're led in that way, where you've got like, this floor needs to be cured before we can drop the false work here when this needs to be post tension before we can go there. And there's this like, this very like, logical sequence. And then there's these other ones where like, it sounds like data centers and you know, Earthworks jobs are
00:18:52
Speaker
traditionally like a supervisor on the ground reading the lay of the land and what's happening and going this here and out there. Yeah.
Agile Planning for Dynamic Projects
00:19:01
Speaker
Look, don't get me wrong that, you know, obviously data centers, as you say, are a significant sort of area of real estate where you can allow trades, you know, to get quite a nice flow and sequence like you've kind of described. But as I said, you know, it can be pretty quickly interrupted, you know, by any kind of impact or delay by one or the other.
00:19:19
Speaker
And so that's where you need to be somewhat agile such that you can continue, you know, a level of progress without, you know, sticking to that very routine or regimented kind of flow. You know, as much as we might be alluding to sort of the fit out of whether it's data halls or
00:19:35
Speaker
you know, major corridors. There's a lot of external infrastructure as well that needs to sort of go in, whether it's, you know, chilli units on a roof or, you know, emergency generators on the outside. There's plenty that sort of all has to happen concurrently to some extent. And so that's also why I sort of place quite a lot of emphasis on planning versus a master plan, given the kind of dynamic nature of what can happen on a job.
00:20:01
Speaker
To ask potentially my first dumb question, is it right to assume that the involvement of the planning team like right at the coalface on the day to day, is that achievable because there's not a huge amount of client driven change from the top, which often sort of
Scope and Ownership in Planning
00:20:22
Speaker
soaks up the time of planners because the scope is like the scope and it's not like a civils job where you can be shifting it around quite often so you're you're like laser focused on we know the sequence we need to coordinate the delivery often um
00:20:37
Speaker
It depends how far you're in the camp, right? So there'll be a lot of operators who will ask you, you know, they'll give you a partial scope in essence. You might have to install your false floor and cooling systems, but actually they're going to come in to install all of their own security systems. They're going to put their servers in and sort of connect them all up.
00:20:55
Speaker
because there are, as was mentioned quite earlier, very stringent security protocols around certainly the operationalization, is that even a word? Operationalization, one of those ones, of data centers. It's dependent on how far one scope extends. But when it comes down to the planners role on the coalface, this is where I've got pretty strong views whereby
Role of Planners in Construction
00:21:23
Speaker
The planner's not the person who's directing the troops on the ground. That's your engineer or package manager. But the planner's role is to ask the right questions of those package managers or engineers to ensure that their scope is coordinated and planned effectively in a collaborative approach.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's where, you know, I'll certainly draw a line. So on that daily or weekly basis, it's going to be the people who are putting the troops to work that actually author and own the plan. And then it is the planners responsibility to help ensure that broadly that's understood and coordinated and also ties into a primary critical path or a broad scale sequence or broader scale sequence as captured by a master program.
00:22:09
Speaker
So very much, you know, grease on the wheel, very much not there to have the right answers, but to ask the right questions and to keep that slightly broader lens of oversight across time, particularly forward.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's like if the planner has to do the planning for people or make people plan, you know, you're in, you know, you're in trouble. You're in stress. Sorry, Carlos. No. Yeah. I was going to say, obviously planners have gone through the rigor of building the original schedule anyway. So trying to pass down like assumptions and knowledge to the team that you've already been through the logic of thinking about. Yeah. In that way, it makes a lot
Security Protocols in Data Centers
00:22:47
Speaker
of sense. Sorry, Jason.
00:22:48
Speaker
No, I was just gonna, I just have this giggle occasionally, Sean, where as part of like, when we supply software to a construction contractor, we go through this vendor assessment process, oftentimes.
00:23:04
Speaker
And I'll always ask you, uh, where's your data hosts and what's the physical security of the data center? And then we'll say, you know, whatever it is, Google card data center. And it's this one here and here are their security controls and they're usually the contractor building the data center that's putting the physics. What are your security credentials? Yeah.
00:23:27
Speaker
Does the cloud vendor use trusted contractors to build their data center?
Future of Data Center Construction
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah, so look it is it's a fascinating world and there are such you know different and emerging Technologies even inside the sort of sector itself. So whether it's you know, fully immersive cooling systems So they actually sink all servers into great big pools of you know water or coolant some really interesting stuff emerging but
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to be such an interesting space to watch from a land perspective, from a power perspective, from that power supply and sustainability of that power. And then also from, we haven't even sort of touched on it, but from the speed of development of these different buildings, because there are certainly regions, I suppose, that can actually support quite a modular based approach.
00:24:26
Speaker
But let's also keep in mind, this is pretty large-scale stuff. So we're talking, as I said, 20-meter column-free spans for good-sized data halls. So there's some very large-scale modularization requirements, which maybe lends itself to actually on-site fabrication yard or something like that.
00:24:46
Speaker
But yeah, it's a very popular space. It's the flavor of the month, but I'm certainly hoping to get stuck into a few more data centers over our time. Just to double click on something Carlos said to clarify for my own interest, Carlos was talking about the idea that maybe or maybe not
Adaptability and Technology Advancements
00:25:09
Speaker
during the construction it would be subject to the kind of change and variation that can happen on some infrastructure jobs where you have like government stakeholders or architects or you know they're always changing things as you go. Is it a fair assumption that they're pretty fixed requirements that it's just getting in and get out as quickly as possible or is it like other infrastructure jobs that things change as you go along?
00:25:33
Speaker
not look that they are still very susceptible to change like change sucks right we absolutely hate hate change the construction is the if there's this uh you know the one kind of thing that QS's do love it so you are talking to coach that's that's yeah they're they're giant but pro planners oh Kirby Willis
00:25:55
Speaker
But certainly just as we've had this sort of surge of AI, there have been data centers that are 90% complete and they've gone for a full refit out so that they can service some AI approach.
00:26:10
Speaker
At the end of the day, it's just following where the money flows. And a lot of these providers are sufficiently cashed up that they can just go and do a full refit. So the only thing that's really driving their intent is scheduled, is programmed. They've got to get it operationalized. There you go. That's the one. As quick as possible. Yeah. I was thinking through. There's obviously, I can't remember the numbers, something like 60 billion a year at the moment on data centers. Yeah.
00:26:40
Speaker
Like design life, ignore the concrete, the technology inside it. Surely it's changing pretty rapidly and you just sit there with AI.
Shell and Core Approach
00:26:47
Speaker
So are they, do they actually future proof it in a way that they can like replace modular units within the structure or is it? Yeah, well, this is where there's a bit of a theme of sort of shell and core dynamic. So actually contractors will only be brought in to build a shell and core. And then it comes down to the operator to figure it out as they sort of see fit.
00:27:10
Speaker
and subsequently they can also retrofit it. But also there is a natural limitation on the power supply that's coming to a site. So nine times out of ten any configuration that goes into a data center will maximize the power supply that comes to the site, both from a cooling perspective and also from...
00:27:30
Speaker
density to density IT racks. So there's a bit of a limitation there anyway. So up until that power gets upgraded, which, you know, is a very long time coming, they generally have to operate with the fit that's in play up until server technology becomes more efficient, or they can achieve a higher density of storage. They can just take power straight off the heat that's being generated.
Lend Lease's Strategic Focus Shift
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, maybe they're in the area where you sit. Carlos, the shower. There's a no-bar priest paising coming.
00:28:02
Speaker
With two or so minutes left, this question we may keep or delete. Asking for a friend, Sean, is there at least better now that the engineering division's over at Asiorno?
00:28:19
Speaker
I love to have in-house smarts. I love to have people to talk to because, you know, that's our game. No one person has all the experience in the world to be able to, you know, put a program together. So I feel that
00:28:35
Speaker
We might have lost a little bit, but also if we don't have to take design responsibility, then that's a good thing too. There's the whole infrastructure. That whole division was, yeah. Look, I was born out of a bit of an infrastructure base, so I do miss it. I missed the railway. I was doing a lot of railway work, possession work early on, and that was great old fun.
00:28:57
Speaker
Um, but, uh, yeah, I think then Lisa is firmly set in a good old developers camp now. So we'll see how it expands. Awesome. Uh, that's gonna, we're gonna run out of time, mate. So first of all, I thank you very much for taking the time to, to chat with has been a ton of fun. And, and I've learned a lot about data centers and, and Carlos's showers.
00:29:19
Speaker
And so only thing to add is now that Carlos and I are both fathers, we're taking this podcast increasingly seriously.
Conclusion and Listener Feedback
00:29:26
Speaker
So for listeners that do send us feedback that send Carlos emails complaining about what he says, it's really useful. It does help us shape what we discuss and how we discuss it. So please, yeah, we do welcome and thank you for doing that. And please keep an eye out for a listener survey that's going to be coming out in the near future.
00:29:46
Speaker
Sean, Carlos, thank you very much. Pleasure. Thanks, Sean. Thanks, Chase. Good one, guys. Thanks for having me.