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60. Reflections on Service, Leadership & a 30-Year Career - CMSgt (ret) Shanton Russell
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In Episode 60 of the FireDawg Podcast, Matt sits down with CMSgt (Ret.) Shanton Russell for a reflective conversation on career progression, leadership philosophy, and long-term success in Air Force Fire Protection.
Chief Russell shares his full-circle journey—entering the Air Force as a young firefighter at Scott Air Force Base in 1996 and retiring nearly 30 years later as the Fire Chief at the same installation. Throughout the discussion, he reflects on the lessons learned early in his career, how his leadership approach evolved as he progressed through the enlisted ranks, and the experiences that shaped him as a senior enlisted leader.
This episode offers valuable insight for Airmen, NCOs, and leaders at every level who are focused on professional growth, intentional leadership, and building a career grounded in service and experience.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Fire Dog Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
This is the Fire Dog Podcast.
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome, my name is Matt Wilson. and Thank you for listening to episode 60 of the Fire Dog Podcast. Our guest today just completed 30 year active duty career in the United States Air Force Fire Protection. He entered the Air Force as a young airman at Scott Air Force Base in 1996. And nearly three decades later,
00:00:30
Speaker
In 2025, retired as a fire chief at that very very same installation. Along the way, he served at multiple bases, held leadership roles at every level, and ultimately reached the highest rank in the Air Force. Today, we talk about lessons learned early in his career.
00:00:46
Speaker
how his leadership philosophy evolved as he moved from firefighter to senior enlisted leader and what he believes matters most for airmen, firefighters, and NCOs, company officers striving for long-term success.
00:00:57
Speaker
This episode is about perspective, growth, and leadership grounded in experience. It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast Chief Master Sergeant Retired, Shanton Russell.
Reflections on a 30-Year Air Force Career
00:01:07
Speaker
Well, Chief, welcome, and we appreciate you joining. um you know i saw i've lived kind of I've seen you from a distance. I've watched some of your happenings you know through LinkedIn, and appreciate that connection. 30 years in the Air Force Fire Service as an active duty member, that's not something you see every day.
00:01:24
Speaker
So i I did listen to a podcast you did, but I think it's on the fire break. Yeah. Yeah, I happen to be on that same way. He he reached out to me as well. I'm sure he reaches out to a lot of folks, but he reached out to me and I took advantage of that opportunity. It was cool to talk to him and speaking with him before I did that. I listened to your episode and I'm like, think you know, we need to get you on. You know that's a long time to serve in the Air Force Fire Service and just try to pull whatever nuggets we can out of you during the time that I got you here today. Yeah. So appreciate it.
Transitioning to Civilian Life and Finding Purpose
00:01:52
Speaker
Look forward to the conversation, Chief.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much, man. Matt, I appreciate you having me. And ah when i when I saw the message come through on LinkedIn, actually, that's how Steve, yeah, he reached out to me on LinkedIn. And it was like, hey, look, i I've been reading your stories and, you know, seeing the things that you got going on. He was like, would you be interested in having a chat with me? That was my first podcast. And that's the one I was referring to earlier when when ah the phone call cut you off. Yeah, yeah. So, ah but he's a great guy. And i had ah had a great time talking with him. As a matter of fact, as you know, he yeah he brought his his vehicles out to Scott Air Force Base while I was, while I was there and we got a chance to see the demo. So that was amazing.
00:02:29
Speaker
His whole team's just a great crew. But then I saw your message come through and that was a no brainer. That was a, that was a capital Y E S all day. That was, yeah that was never going to be a no. We just needed to figure out, you know, obviously the timing to get it. Because I know you're busy and and I know you do a lot of these interviews. I just don't know how to sit still. So i yeah I'm kind of, as I should be relaxing, I am relaxing a lot more, but I'm i'm still very busy. and And I and i didn sense so do that to myself. Yeah, I do that to myself.
00:03:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I can see that. I see that you now work for for Monaco, correct? Yeah, so um yeah so i ah I joined the Monaco team um November 2nd, and I'm still learning. I've got a chance to make a few trips, and then I have another tour coming up. It's coming up here soon, and I get a chance to get out and see some bases. But love the team.
00:03:24
Speaker
It's a really great company. Obviously, as you as you know, and most of our folks know, we we're in quite a few DOD bases, and Just getting a chance to, i always said that if i if I go back to work, I wanted to go back to work for a company that where it feels like it's a team, and I want to be able to work for a company that has that has values, standards, and a clear mission, right? So if I'm going to work for somebody, bite number one, if i didn't know if I didn't know the person that what I was going to be working for, that was going to be rough.
00:03:57
Speaker
And if i um I was going into a team where their values and weren't really clear, I'd rather just... just sit tight, you know? And um that team really took me in, showed me the ropes early on, brought me in for a visit. I got a chance to meet most of the leads.
00:04:16
Speaker
um So I knew going in on day one that I was, I was going to work for a great company and a company that takes care of firefighters and, and, and our, and our people at that work at our military bases. And so that was, that was an easy transition going to work for Monaco because being a fire chief over my last several assignments, I absolutely know that my guys rely on those those alarms, you know, and Monocle is a company that provides them and makes sure we keep them service. so So, yeah, it's a good company, yeah and so far it's working out great, a great relationship, and so I'm enjoying it.
Preserving Military History and Legacy
00:04:54
Speaker
That's good. Yeah. and finding that sense of purpose after a 30 year stint on active duty, you know, that's so important. And I've heard several people who retire talk about that, listen to some other podcasts and it's so important to find that sense of purpose and attaching yourself to it. If you don't stay within the Department of Defense and whatever it is you do, you got to find that organization that has clear values that they stick to have a sense of purpose and just a good team. It's so important to just be in a tight knit family, you know? so So that's great that you found that.
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah. and well she I'd like to, i'll go ahead. No, no, I was just saying, ah yeah, I love it. Um, I love that I'm able to still be able to, I mean, I, I joined the fire department. I wanted to be in the fire department because I just, I fell in love with fire as a kid.
00:05:38
Speaker
Like most kids do, you know, doing, um, Doing a tour, you know, of ah of a firehouse at school, doing doing one of our little school field trips. And so at the end of the day, being out of the firehouse now, it's it's a little tough. I miss being around firefighters and fire
Career Journey and Experiences in the Air Force
00:05:54
Speaker
trucks, you know. And so this job gives me an opportunity to still pop in on a firehouse every once in a while. Heck yeah.
00:06:00
Speaker
I see what you did there. I like that. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, chief, uh, AJ Keel retired, same thing kind of involved in a similar, you know, where he can still embed himself in the fire department. Uh, chief Mark Abrahamson retired, you know, like they're all kind of, that they put themselves into positions where they still get to interact with us. And I think that's great.
00:06:24
Speaker
They're great guys. And there's so much there too, right? Like with you and and those guys, there's so much there that they could offer. And so it's it's just really cool to see this folding that not just kind of you could go do whatever you want, but it is cool to see you transition into something that's going to help put the fire service and take everything you got up and that in that brain and and, you know, giving it back.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah. Thanks a lot for that, man. Yeah. Well, let's start out by just kind of briefly telling us how long you've been in the Air Force, where you've been. And I know i say briefly, there's a lot of places that you've been. I looked looked into your bio. and But yeah, just kind of a tour of the bases that you've been at and yeah how long you've been in Yeah, so I um i started, ah I left left home on the 22nd of November and of 1995. And I took off to to to our our home where where most of us began, Lackland.
00:07:17
Speaker
So I started off there, did did BMT, left ah and headed on out over to Goodfellow. So when I joined, excuse me, at the MEPS, all of the paperwork said Chanute. Everything said I was going to Chanute, right? so Yeah, I was going to ask that. I'm thinking I'm headed to Chanute Air Force Base and I'm telling my family, hey, I'm just not going to be very far.
00:07:37
Speaker
ah might be able to pop in on the weekends, you know, see you guys. So I'm i'm thinking I'm going to be very close to home, um being from Illinois. And as I'm at BMT, and I'm talking to folks and go, yeah, I'm going to be a firefighter. Yeah. And one of the instructors said, yeah, you're just going to be right up the road. actually low And I'm like, no, we're in Chanute. And so he goes, I'm pretty sure Chanute's closed, but The two of us were so certain that he had to go and check. He said, let me go and check. He left, he went checked, he came back, and he said, I'm sorry, man, you you're going to San Angelo. You're getting on a bus to Goodfellow after this.
00:08:18
Speaker
I was heartbroken, so heartbroken. but I imagine. Yeah, I'm thinking I'm going to be close to my family still. I didn't know anything about the Air Force. you know None of us really, truly do, going in, no know exactly what we're going to face.
Evolution of Leadership Philosophies
00:08:31
Speaker
So I'm still thinking that there's a chance.
00:08:33
Speaker
You know, I'm still going to see family. Like, I'm going to be going home on the weekends. I didn't know what it was going be like, but I knew for a fact. Nope. Central Texas, middle of nowhere. where I wasn't seeing anybody until let that journey was over. So, get to Goodfellow. And then, of course, ah wow, you know, I had a great time. So, we had, I'm pretty sure we had six blocks back then as well.
00:08:53
Speaker
I don't, I know it's changed now, but back then it was six blocks. And so, I started out.
00:09:00
Speaker
Just as we all do. Finished up Goodfellow. Left there. And then my first base was Scott Air Force Base, Illinois. So I got to Scott, which was amazing. I didn't i didn't know that I would get Scott. um There were no guarantees or anything like that made. just so I put it on my list and I got it. So I came home. I did a year and about maybe three months at Scott and then took off for Yokota Air Base, Japan. And I did six years at Yokota. Left Yokota as a staff sergeant and then headed to Goodfellow again, where I got to teach at the Fire Academy for five years. I taught airport, which was Block 6 at the time, for about a
Leadership Journey and Mentorship
00:09:38
Speaker
year and a half. And then the rest of my time was spent teaching hazmat in block five at the time. I left the schoolhouse and took off for Lodgers Field, Portugal. I did enjoy the Azores, left the Azores after I think it was 15 months, 14, 15 months. And then I only got to do eight years, I mean, eight ah months on vacation.
00:09:59
Speaker
station though because I deployed out of there and at at a time when we really didn't really normally deploy out of uh lodges I deployed out of lodges and so I only really got eight months on the the island I felt robbed but I did enjoy the eight months that I did get to spend I had a lot of fun and then I left lodges for Spangdollum did two years of Spangdollum uh Germany and then headed to RAF Mildenhall after that apa ah I apologize for uh for the for the brief pauses, but I'm 52 and the brain is trying to remember all of these places and the time in everything. So bear with me.
00:10:35
Speaker
So let's- I didn't even notice any pauses, Chief. Oh my gosh. You got to Mildon Hall. this is ah this is a This is a workout right now, a mental workout. what ah Got to Mildon Hall and did- ah Four years there, left Mildon Hall and took off for Joint Base Andrews. Did two years at Andrews, then took off for Korea.
00:10:56
Speaker
I got to be the fire chief there for a year. I was at Kunsan, then left Kunsan and went to McConnell, Wichita, Kansas, from Wichita, Kansas to Minot, and did ah two years at Minot, from Minot to Al-Yadid, a permanent party there. And then um from Al-Yah-D to back to Scott, the place where it all started and got a chance to be the fire chief where I was a young knucklehead airman getting yelled at. And i actually my office where I ended up working in was used to be the prevention office where I got yelled at as a kid, like straight up in your face.
00:11:31
Speaker
yelled at and and I got a chance to work as the fire chief in that same room to to finish up my career. So that's ah that's ah how it started and kind of where finished and a testament to ah what goes around sometimes comes back the around.
00:11:47
Speaker
That's crazy. so Full circle moment. Yeah, full circle, boomerang, have whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that's what I was blessed to kind of endure. But it's been a long journey. Of course, a few deployments sprinkled in over over those years. I finished up at 30 years and nine days, effective on 1 December. So, yeah, so I've been retired here for a few weeks, officially. Got my retirement ID cards on the way in the mail. I haven't gotten them yet, but they should be showing up soon.
00:12:16
Speaker
Got that retirement beard, too. Yeah, yeah. This thing, I don't, you know, I don't know. I like it. I like it a lot. I like not having to get up in the morning in the shade because I did bump. I was one of the folks that used to bump up every once in while. I had to endure that, though, and I had to do what I had to do to take care of my face and make sure that I was within regulations.
00:12:34
Speaker
But, ah man, I'm telling you just to not have not have to get up in the morning and shave. That's the reason it's still here and it's because i just I'm lazy and I don't feel like cutting it off. But I also don't want to get into that play get back to that place where I was irritated and bumping up again. So I'm like, if I shave it, it's going to stay shaved. it it is gonna It's never coming back. Or I'm just going to keep it. And I'm never going to show my but my baby face again. I'll just leave it.
00:12:59
Speaker
Right now, right now, you're with it. Most importantly, the wife is happy with it. so Is she? Well, that's all that matters. She loves it, so that's it. I care less what anybody else thinks. She loves it, yeah. I think i think about that with haircuts too. you know i've Coming in as a young as a young person, like many of us do, you know you never have opportunity to to cut your hair or let your hair grow out you know and grow the beard, of course. And so I always wondered, like,
00:13:26
Speaker
what would I look like with some long hair? You know, and of course, uh, every once a while you get to you get to grow a little bit of a beard if you go on a lot of leave or something like that. But, uh, so that's cool. Um, good to see you have an opportunity to do that stuff and good to hear that the wife likes it too. Um, so yeah, full circle going from, starting from Scott and then getting chewed out and then showing up and that's your office.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah. That's pretty cool. Crazy. Absolutely. All right. and i'm I'm a big nostalgia guy. I i don't know. I think I'm i'm a student of history and I love history, right? And so I think about the history of of myself sometimes. And so I have the opportunity to travel a little bit in the job that I'm in now and just went back to my first base recently just on a work trip, right? And just being there and like looking at all the buildings and seeing where I used to to stay in the dormitory or you know thinking about the calls that I went on and then interacting with the firefighters that are there now.
00:14:18
Speaker
Man, I used to be... And I just couldn't wait to tell them that, you know what mean? I was here, you know what i mean? I was you, and look where I am now. And it's just, it's got to be a ah really cool feeling. I think it's good to um to see is ah avoca see some of your... your ah your nostalgia and memorabilia in your office there. You know, there's there's something to be said for having certain things in your in your office. And I was one of those fire chiefs that made sure that my office had my journey present because,
00:14:50
Speaker
There are times when i think I think a lot of folks feel like when they come into the Air Force that it that the Air Force just started. It just started the day I showed just showed up. This organization is only two years old. This organization is is ah is is old. It's been around for a while, right? I'm in 1947, but we're one of the younger branches. but But at the end of the day, that's a long time ago. And so... ah And we've had a lot of things ah that our Air Force has accomplished since then. And I think it's important that folks get a chance to see folks who paved the way for them, just as we got a chance, right? you I'm sure you had that opportunity to bump into some some old heads that that paved the way for you and and folks that worked at departments that you worked in or a stranger that just popped in one day and was like, oh, I used to be the
00:15:37
Speaker
Fill in the blank, right? do Crew chief here. Or I was i used to be the the assistant chief here. I was the fire chief here once upon a time, right? And you see those guys and you're like, wow. You're like, wow, that's crazy. Wow, this guy was a fire chief here back in 1970-something? I was born in the 70s. You know, so at the end of the day, um I always found it ah important, too, when those folks visited to treat them like special guests when they showed up. They're not going to be there every day, but they did for for a few moments decide to take some time out of their day to come back and take a trip to see see their their path a part of their path and so I like to take folks around and I would personally take them around the station and show them show them things and answer questions for them and and then ah maybe pawn them off to young airman get so they didn't get a chance to see who's the young folks that are working there now you know so yeah yeah I think that's important as well yeah
00:16:29
Speaker
this stuff Yeah, that with the memorabilia in your office, and i'm i'm a kind of I'm the kind of person who in my head, I i don't i don't want to hang these things up. i don't It comes, some people call it like, what is it called? Like a I love me kind of room or presentation. But when I put this stuff up, I think...
00:16:50
Speaker
I think about what other people think when they come in and see it. Like, it's just a representation of my career, the places that I've been. It's it's a conversation starter. I think that's cool, you know, and you could talk through the places that you've been, the things that you've seen.
00:17:03
Speaker
yeah And with with those old with those old heads, you know, you're you're connected. We're all connected in some way. And I just think that's cool. And they they care so much about it. I mean, why else would they show up? You know what i mean? And so it's it's a big part of their life. They gave, you know, the better part of their adulthood to the fire service and to the Air Force. And it's like, yeah, I'm going to take the time yeah to to talk to them and try to pick their brains and just to make make sure that they know that they're still welcome.
00:17:28
Speaker
you know thats that's cool I agree. I agree. I'd like to highlight a little bit about, so again, it's not too often now in 2025, we're talking to people who were in the fire service in the 90s or in the Air Force in the 90s. So what was it like as a young airman, young firefighter in the mid to late ninety s
00:17:48
Speaker
ah Wow. So ah it was, I'd say it, and folks that were around then will know what I'm talking about. It was crazy, but it was a good crazy. There was hazing. There was a lot of haze so hazing back then.
00:17:59
Speaker
You were most certainly going to be brought into the fold ah when you, when you showed up and, uh, I could get into stories about the stunts that we pulled. A lot of times they they they led to an airman being arrested by security forces who sometimes might be in on it. You know, ah an arrested, not not really arrested, but a ah a fake arrest, but at least, but the airman wouldn't know that. yeah But ah so many crazy things that could that could mean your shirt getting hung up in the top of the stalls or your hat being frozen in ah in ah and in ice, you know, in the freezer someplace. ah That can mean you being...
00:18:35
Speaker
Tied up and having mustard and ketchup poured all over over your head. and If you you complained about it and told somebody, don't touch my stuff, this is it. This is the last time this is going to happen. You better not, you know, ah do it again. You just open yourself up for about another several months. ah you know So at the and at the end of the day, i will say that nobody bothered you back then unless they liked you.
00:19:00
Speaker
if you If no one was messing with you ah in in the firehouse, chances are they didn't like you. Right. So the more they mess with you, the more they the more they liked you. I got messed with. It a good sign.
00:19:13
Speaker
I got messed with a lot. And there were times, I don't know, maybe it was because I'm a little guy and they knew I couldn't do nothing about I couldn't fight back. But at the end of the day, and I did a lot of barking. And so, yeah, they messed with me left and right. Oh, yeah. but yeah And then I became part of that, you know. But that was part of the the camaraderie. Some of the things we did, a lot of those things, of course, there's that that stuff hasn't happened in many, many years as far as I know at Firehouse is. But, yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
Probably for, and ah it's a good thing. It's a good thing. But I will say that ah that was something that um that was prevalent. What else was prevalent was we got a chance to eat dinners together.
00:19:53
Speaker
We had an opportunity to, because a lot of us had open bays, or we had partition walls and curtains, you know. but So we were always together. During our downtime, we were together. Of course, yeah we didn't have Wi-Fi in the station then. It's crazy to think of now. A lot of us didn't have cell phones. as We had to have pictures, and that's how they got a hold of us. Your pager went off. You you get in touch with the department or show up to work. That's how was. But inside the firehouse, it was a very close-knit bond.
00:20:22
Speaker
We showed up in the morning. We got our details out the way. Our boots were shined and polished for the most part, for those of us who chose to do that. And then ah uniforms were typically pressed um because we wore the BDU's.
00:20:35
Speaker
And as far as our gear, you know, most of us, most apartments, we had ah the silvers that we wore back then. And so we didn't have chance of proximity gear. And then later, of course, we got a chance to have both. And then, of course, we got rid of the prox gear altogether. But it was very close-knit. Our civilians were I remember them to be very knowledgeable, no nonsense. You did what they told you to do.
00:20:58
Speaker
But our our senior NCOs and our and r NCOs, even like some of our senior airmen, I just remember them. It took a longer time to get promoted. i mean, some senior airmen, it would be in up to 10 years if they didn't get promoted, they got out and they'd give them a step a stipend. There were people who... um It took many times for them. You saw old staff sergeants, right? You would think that they were in a golf something. No, they were active duty because it took that long to get promoted. But you had a lot of experienced individuals, right, because of that. So a staff sergeant, I'm sorry, or a senior airman, you could find they'd been in the Air Force for many years. and And they had a lot of experiences. So when those guys spoke, they spoke with knowledge. They were they were tech technicians. They knew what they were doing. And so we as AMRA, we got the benefit from from that, from those types of individuals. But the biggest takeaways from the 90s, I would say,
00:21:55
Speaker
Camaraderie was very, very strong. And um I would say training, we got to do quite a bit of it. And it was taken very serious. You didn't have all of the technology. And so um we had to think outside the box. And there had to be unique ways of getting after things. because And we figured it out. We decided how it was going to be done because we didn't have everything, all the answers at our fingertips.
00:22:19
Speaker
It was an interesting time. ah Yeah, definitely definitely definitely missed the 90s. It was a lot of fun. For an airman, though, ah yeah, you were it was very structured. i I will say discipline was another piece of it. I i would say you had more opportunities to handle things um in the firehouse, where today a lot of things that happened in the 90s that were handled at the flight level,
00:22:43
Speaker
most Most of these things have have have automatically get squadron commander visibility and and folks are out of the Air Force. In the 90s, some of the things that you see folks getting in trouble for today, during that time, we could have we could have saved probably a lot of careers, I would say.
00:23:00
Speaker
yeah But it's cool to... I'd have been kicked out. Oh, really? Yeah. About seven times. Yeah. or Seven times for, you know, thank God I came in in the 90s and I got a chance to get slapped on the list. Where there's no social media, Airman NCO Senior, NCO Facebook page. Yeah, 100%. Back then it was like, come here, man. What is wrong with you? li kid Yeah.
00:23:23
Speaker
Figure it out. Yeah. So I had a chance to.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah, there's a call coming in. yeah Did I not tell you that my wife is just upstairs and she probably would call me? She's going to give you a call? First phone call. My wife. ah it Right there with you. I ah'll tell tell my family, hey, I'm recording a podcast. and Hey, they'll knock on the door. They'll open the door up.
00:23:43
Speaker
but I thought made that clear, but hey, she does her thing. Yeah. Well, how cool is it to see the evolution of the Air Force, 30-year evolution at least, not the entire evolution, but and the fire service too. It just...
00:23:58
Speaker
And i think about, you know, I mean, if SAC Pro Board came online in the mid-90s, the firetruck, the evolution firetrucks, the evolution of how we interact with each other, um the cell phones coming into play, the internet coming into play, computer-based training and and things like of that nature. Really cool to to be able to see the evolution of that. And even I've seen some of it in my my career, you know, early in the thousands coming in and some of those, some of that hazing that you mentioned earlier, I mean, that was just normal. Like, here comes, you Everybody tells you like, hey, it's it's coming.
00:24:27
Speaker
We didn't call a i anybody we didn't normallyt call it hazing. Somebody decided to call it hazing like some somewhere along the line. Hey, hazing is bad. It's like, what what are you talking about, man? We're just firefighters. Yeah.
00:24:38
Speaker
No giving each other crap. You know, it's that's all it is. Well, um, So I want to get into your, you know, your leadership philosophy and things like that. I see a lot of what you put on LinkedIn and I'd like to capture some of that here, definitely. But before I get into that, i I'd really like to know what in the early part of your career, is there one, two significant events, maybe a person, a place that you were stationed that inspired you to continue on? Because I mean, it's not every day you see somebody who does 30 years. So yeah.
00:25:07
Speaker
Was it something maybe at each interval, you're like, you know, I'll do another three, I'll do another assignment, I'll do another five, whatever it was, or was there just kind of a defining moment for you in your career? Yeah, so I came in to do four years.
00:25:21
Speaker
and Let's be clear. I came in to do four years. And once I got in, after that yelling at that that that I was talking to that I had at Scott that I told you about in the prevention office,
00:25:33
Speaker
I was ready to get out after that. I was like, I'm done with this. So thankfully, i had a a couple of good friends who were older, senior airmen who were kind of mentors at that time that pulled me aside and said, hey, look, man. Yep.
00:25:48
Speaker
probably was was not what you wanted to hear and you know you probably not used to folks talking to you like that but just hey look don't don't be ready to write off the air force just because of that interaction so that kind of helped settle me down a little bit and I kind of kind of took me off the ledge and so I said hey look I'll get through my time but one of my friends told me hey look There's so many other places out here. There's bases in Japan. There's places up, Panama, all over the place. And why don't you put in go and update your dream sheet and and put in for something? So I did. Again, came in to do four years.
00:26:24
Speaker
Put eight bases on my dream sheet. Yokota was seventh on my list. I got Yokota. I take off and get to Japan and absolutely loved it. So when it came time for me to reenlist, I did.
00:26:37
Speaker
I was enjoying it where i was was where I was at. So I decided to stick. I reenlisted there and then I extended twice, which is how I ended up getting so getting to six years. Left and got to the schoolhouse and I was going to get out at the schoolhouse, made tech. Once I made tech, I decided ah i was still getting out. And I was that guy that bunch of folks were. Yeah. had you know, so Halliburton, Brown and Root had the jobs they were giving Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.
00:27:04
Speaker
one of those guys that had a heart of G what? Yep. A hundred percent. Yeah. I got a, I was one of the guys that had a friend working and, and was like, Hey, look, man, we get you hired. I talked to their HR and they were ready to give me a job. And I was like, right, don't need that tech sergeant stripe. And then, um,
00:27:22
Speaker
Then I had people going, oh, you know, you're getting out. You took my stripe from me. You did this. And I'm like, I didn't really take your stripe. So at the end of the day. That's on you to make it. You got to make it, brother. So I ended up deciding. a Someone made a comment. Hey, man, you know, the the only thing I don't like. It was a buddy of mine who was a contract. He said is they sometimes hold that over your head that um they can let you go for any reason.
00:27:45
Speaker
You'll probably be okay because you work hard, take care of business. But. I just don't like how they hold that over your head that they could fire you whenever. And when he said that, I was just kind of like, ah I was thinking about stability. I had my my wife, I had kids. So i was like, I need to make sure that i'm that I'm able to take care of my family. And I don't want to go into something where I'm being threatened to be fired. So I'm like, you know what?
00:28:08
Speaker
I'll stick with the Air Force. So I decided to stay. and I took the Tech Sergeant's stripe. Then you got to decide when you're at that halfway mark, you know, whether or not. And that was getting close to that halfway mark for me. And I decided I'm going to get over the hump. So with that, I knew i was going to probably stay to 20.
00:28:26
Speaker
So to answer your question, intervals over time, enlistment by enlistment. After I got to Yokota, I said basically and reenlisted the first time, I said I'll take an enlistment by enlistment and see how my life is going and if this is still working. I looked at my relationship with the Air Force as just that, as a relationship.
00:28:46
Speaker
If the relationship is going well, hey, let's keep this thing going. If the relationship is no longer going well, because we're in it together, Air Force, you do things for me, I do things for you. We keep this thing going.
00:28:58
Speaker
We're in love with each other. Yeah, great. And when we start to lose that respect for each other, you don't want me in the way that I am. I don't want you the way that you treat me. And we part ways. And so I looked at it like that.
00:29:12
Speaker
But then there was also a defining moment piece as well. And I was at Spang Dalam Air Base, and I had a chief master sergeant there by the name of Richard Lane. He had a conversation with me after I made master, and he said, if you, congratulations basically on making master, but if you think for a second that you're going make senior in chief, you got to decide whether going to be all in, whether you're going to be one one leg out into something else and one leg into the Air Force. to have to be all in.
00:29:49
Speaker
And so ah taking that, that he gay I mean, i was I was wanting to be a rapper back then at that time but at that time in my career. you know so i was And and i have I come from a musical family and have a musical. okay and so So I still had that in me. And so as a hobby, I took a lot of time you know writing and producing songs and things like that. And so I was kind of, hey, half of me is with with other things and the other half is with the air force.
00:30:17
Speaker
And so after that discussion with chief lean, I did have to really kind of decide, Hey, look, what do I want to do? And that his words kind of came true as soon as I got to Mildenhall. So as soon as I showed up on milton at to Mildenhall, was master sergeant, brand new master sergeant. I literally sold on my stripe during my final out the day of my final out at Spang Dolom. So no one at Spang had ever seen me as a master.
00:30:38
Speaker
and And no one at Mildenhall ever seen me as a tech. So I show up day one. The deputy was like, hey, I thought you were a tech sergeant. I said, i was. I said, until I saw him.
00:30:52
Speaker
But with that, everybody expected master sergeant output. Everybody. I don't care who it was I was talking to, whether I was talking to an airman, a civilian, the fire chief, who was chief Scott Knup at the time when I got to Mildenhall, whether it was, whether it was those folks or whether it was folks in the squadrons, when they see the master sergeant stripe, they expect that master sergeant work. And so for me, um, I knew I had to get after it a certain, a certain way.
00:31:23
Speaker
And, um, That changed kind of the trajectory. Long answer. But but i I think that I'd like to tie it to being us being a staff sergeant for the first time. You were an airman.
00:31:36
Speaker
You had all these other airmen maybe with your friends. And now you're getting ready to supervise some of them. And now you're an NCEO, and you're learning what that means. But then you become a tech, and now you're supervising staffs.
00:31:48
Speaker
mean, you just want some of your buddies of staffs now. you know But now you've got to supervise them. Then you're a master, right? And you keep this thing going, and eventually you're a senior mass sergeant superviseding master sergeant master sergeants who supervise NCOs. And as the responsibility grows, right, you have to move different. And so – I learned that as I was moving differently, I was changing and I needed to change. And there were changes for the better.
00:32:15
Speaker
And those things kept me going because the more people I got, I was responsible for, the more I tried to do things to make their lives better and to challenge them to be better. And the more I did that, they also fed me. My airmen fed me and gave me the fuel. i don't know if many of them knew it. I did tell some of them that, but um they gave me the fuel to keep on going. yeah When I saw them achieve things, when I saw them overcome obstacles or personal challenges, they it made me want to continue doing what it what it was that I was doing. And so that's what got me through 30 years. Um, not from the beginning, not, not from the beginning. Um, there were times was going to part ways and and I was going to, going to give up and quit.
00:32:59
Speaker
And I'm glad that I did it. But what kept me going over, I would say the, the, um, the last third of my career was, uh, or I say the, the, the fourth quarter, let's just do that since, uh, Since we talked football a little bit earlier, i was the fourth fourth quarter of my career, I guess I would say what kept me going was ah was the airman. And that was the only reason, that was the only thing that pushed me. Because obviously I could have gotten out. I could have retired at 20. I could have retired at 24, 26. I chose to just keep going because I was continuing to enjoy what I was doing in the airman. I felt like the airman, I could still benefit my airman.
00:33:37
Speaker
All right. Until ah until la till till the Air Force said, okay, old man, get on out of here and grow that beard. It's time. It's time. Yeah. Wow. That's, yeah, it's quite the journey. um And I ive thought of a couple things as you're speaking there. One of them is there's like a sense of obligation for me personally, as you cross those thresholds into each rank or to the NCO tier, senior NCO tier, let's call it company officer, senior fire officer tiers.
00:34:01
Speaker
Like the higher you go up, the more I've felt of a ah sense of obligation to those firefighters, you know, underneath me. And it's like, I kind of want to stick around for them. One of the things that has kind of kept me you know, there's ah there's several things that kind of keep you motivated as you move on through the career. But it's like, hey, if we go to war with a peer adversary, which is, you know, a lot of what they've been discussing over the past handful of years, I kind of want to be there, not because they need me, but because i have a lot to offer yeah to the team.
00:34:31
Speaker
And I, you know, I want... just as an American, as an airman or whatever, or the firefighter, like there's a lot invested in my, you know, into, into my brain. And so I just want, I feel a sense of obligation to, to give that back. you know what I mean? So that's, that's one thing. Another thing that I picked up on there was,
00:34:49
Speaker
you know We look at 30-year chief master sergeant or a chief master sergeant in general walking around or whatever or a fire chief and you think you know you think that they hung the moon and that they got it all figured out and dialed in. And there's so many people that have touched you throughout your career and so many decision points.
00:35:06
Speaker
You know, it's just it goes to show none of us really have it figured out. I would say almost none of us, maybe some of us, maybe some of the rare ones out there. But it takes people, man. It takes people around you, you know, to stand on and to to get to the next levels.
00:35:20
Speaker
That is the golden nugget, right?
00:35:24
Speaker
I used to tell my guys, like, hey, look, nothing is more important than you you. Like, nothing is more important than you. Like, the fire station is not more important than you. Because I need, yeah i have it because of you, right? We have the station to house you.
00:35:40
Speaker
The trucks are not more important than you. Because without you, they just sit in the stalls. They're static displays. They're not going anywhere. I need your butts in the seats because what you have to offer is more important than anything else. All these other things are tools. They're tools and equipment and facilities that we have to take care of you so that you can get after the mission. So I always told my firefighters, you guys are the most important resource. You're the most important thing to me. And, and of course I've made sure that folks that were on the leadership team with me, ma when when it comes to notifications and anything happens with my, with my people, I want to know about it. I was not one of, I was one of those guys that got a little upset if,
00:36:20
Speaker
If I find out somebody's hurt and you didn't tell me about, oh, gee, we didn't want to buy. No, you will bother me with that one because that's that's something that affected one. of my Now you get to take care of it as a leader. Go ahead. Do what you got to do. But you got to let me know about it and tell me that that something happened with one of my folks. Right. So um ah I want to I took that very seriously. But the relationships. Right. That we have good, bad, what what have what have you. Right.
00:36:46
Speaker
Those relationships help shape who we are, even though even the ones that are that I would say are toxic i don't ah toxic. Toxicity was not tolerated. That was one of my big no's, right? um And I made sure was on my slides when I briefed and on day one. Toxicity, not toxic leadership, toxicity. If you're toxic...
00:37:07
Speaker
No one wants to be around followership. You suck. the Yep. You suck the air out of the room when you walk in because because of the way you ah you are and the way you treat people. i don't want you. You can't be here. And I made sure my commanders knew that and that they supported me with that.
00:37:20
Speaker
I can't fire you and kick you out of the Air Force, but you ain't going to have a home in the firehouse unless you can fix your attitude and your behavior. Then there's a place for you. If you can't fix your attitude and your behavior, there is no place for you. We're going find somewhere else for you because you can't be a part of this.
00:37:36
Speaker
I can't have this atmosphere and environment. Because that's part of the fire chief's job, right, is to make sure that the environment is one that your folks feel safe in and can operate in. But if if you got folks that are toxic, but even those folks, right, think of a bully.
00:37:49
Speaker
How do you know you're tough if you never had ah had anybody bully you? The moment that bully steps up and you punch him in the face, And he goes away and cries. you're like, whoa.
00:38:01
Speaker
Well, he wasn't as tough as I thought he was. and And I'm stronger than I thought I was. so Even those toxic relationships sometimes that we encounter in our service, our in our service and our business, in life, even some of those relationships help us to figure out who we are and how we need to move. It's not always the best, the the friends and and and those folks who are motivating us with positive words and inspiring us. Sometimes it's those knuckleheads that get on our nerves, that go against the grain. We have to know how to maneuver around those folks, through those folks, past those folks.
00:38:35
Speaker
You know, you sometimes you hear, I've learned more from the the leaders that I didn't like than those that I did. You know, so I think that that's a great point to connect with what you just said there. And to your point about...
00:38:47
Speaker
the most important person is that firefighter, that person within the team. Uh, it's something that you don't understand. Even, you know, I see i but even into the senior NCO tier, there's times where maybe you think you're insignificant, but I, I, I said this to somebody just recently and I can't remember who it was, but, um,
00:39:05
Speaker
You know, every time the truck rolls or you showing up at roll call, like that is that's a significant thing. And not to hand out participation trophies, and but you showing up and you being there on watch, you know, you're the tip of the spear.
00:39:20
Speaker
You can operate the truck. You're going to make it out. You know, just being there for the public to me is a significant thing. And the my even the more insignificant calls, you know, just going through the motions and being there for the public.
00:39:32
Speaker
when they need you, you know, in whatever capacity that is, that's a significant responsibility. So. Yeah, it is. And I used to also say, and I still, I mean, I still hold this true. It's it's the young, the youngest fighter. And i so when I talk about firefighters, yeah, i do mean the people. I don't care if you're youngest or the oldest, anyone in that firehouse, right?
00:39:53
Speaker
If they're my responsibility, I care about them. I want them to be successful in their role. But I always told my leadership teams, That it always starts with that youngest firefighter, that tailboard firefighter, fresh out of tech school.
00:40:09
Speaker
That's where my primary focus is. Not on you, deputy. Not on you. I love you you. But no, you're not my primary focus. You make a lot of money. You know what the hell you you've been through all kinds of got all kinds of experience. I ain't worried about you. You better know how to take care of business. Right. But this kid, though, just came in. He doesn't know anything.
00:40:24
Speaker
Right. We got to give him his gear, make sure it fits. We got to make sure his boots aren't aren't too tight and he doesn't have size 10 toes curled up inside a size 8 boot. Right? So we got to make sure that we got we got our folks taken care of. They got the proper gloves. Everything fits properly. Because they're going to be the the ones doing the hardest work.
00:40:45
Speaker
They're going to be the most vulnerable, the the least knowledgeable. m They are trusting people. You more than they even know, right? Your airmen that don't know how to do an EPB when they first show up, they don't know. what They don't know. what they've never They probably don't even know what it stands for. Right.
00:41:04
Speaker
So you're trusting that someone's got that stuff figured out for them. Right. And so I got frustrated whenever I found out that certain things weren't figured out for my youngest Aaron, but we all had it figured out for ourselves as we moved up the chain.
00:41:17
Speaker
So I always started there. That's that pyramid was turned upside down. And so that tip, we were paying attention to the folks that were, I guess, at the base of it that pyramid. Another thing that I always like to do, because it this disputee this part of that people part, um you'll hear your airmen say, I'm just an A1C or I'm just a senior airman. So i know I know I'm not a chief and I'm only, I would stop them right there.
00:41:48
Speaker
I'd say, listen, man, there is no me without you. And I need to make sure i need them needed to make sure that my airmen understood their role. There is no lesser. i'm not I'm not higher. You're not low.
00:42:00
Speaker
There's no low ranks. Every single one of them is ah is essential. You can't have chief stripes without A1C stripes. You can't have them. They don't exist. You take out the A1C stripes, you're not a chief master sergeant. So every you every single one of them is vital to to making it to chief, right? So at the end of the day, um once I would say stuff like that, there's no me without you.
00:42:23
Speaker
There's no my stripes without your stripes. And I'd ask them, you get that? And they said, oh, yes, chief. And they changed the way they saw themselves, right? Yeah, yeah. um Yeah, i don't know. I just, the people part was...
00:42:36
Speaker
was the biggest piece to me, and that's kind of why I moved the way that I moved. That's kind of why I share the things that I'm sharing now. I wish I had more of that. I had some of it.
00:42:48
Speaker
I got a lot of it later in earn my career because then the closer you get to leaders, senior leaders, the more you learn from them. our young Ammon aren't close. So as a senior leader, I had to make myself available to them. So I went to them.
00:43:01
Speaker
And so and that's why I did things like chief's chat, where I sat in the room and just talked to them. It was a little bit more formal in the beginning when I did them as and as a senior NCO, master sergeant.
00:43:13
Speaker
But then as I became a chief, I stopped the slides and I just went into the room and And sat with them and said, okay, let's talk. What's on your minds? and And, of course, there's always hesitation in the beginning. But once they see the format play out and they get used to it, and then it'll be two hours inside the room because you you guys are just asking questions and want to just chop it up with you have discussions. So I had to make myself available to them when I know that there is that there's so many different levels of supervision in between us.
00:43:47
Speaker
You know, one thing that I hear a lot, you hear sometimes is they're America's sons and daughters, right? You know, those Airmen soldiers, sailors, they're, you know, and so you have a sense of responsibility. It's kind of a father. And, you know, so you feel that that father figure role or that brother figure role or uncle figure role, right? And so, yeah, I mean, that's, I think, just to encapsulate kind of everything you said, you're're you're a bit of a father figure to these people or a mother figure or whatever it is.
00:44:13
Speaker
And it's just so important to take that seriously because, know, Yeah, they're just, they're it's it's a bit, it's different when you join the military. You know, if those who don't don't join the military typically probably stay around home, stay around family, see them on the weekends. These 18, 19-year-old kids are, they're joining the military and going to Europe, going to Japan, going...
00:44:33
Speaker
somewhere away from home where they know, you know, they're just learning how to tie their boots. You know, of course, you know, they, they're not, they don't know speak up if, if their toes are curling up inside these boots that don't fit them. You know what I mean? Like, so it's important to, it's important to take that role seriously.
00:44:48
Speaker
yeah yeah I think that's, that's a good segue into your, your leadership approach and philosophy. I mean, we, you know, we've kind of, I got a sense of, you know, probably what that is, but I'd really like to give you opportunity to to highlight that, um, you know, just as, as long as you've been in and I'm sure your leadership approach has kind of evolved, but yeah, tell us about that.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, I, I, I came in at a time when everyone was mission first, mission first, mission first, mission first. That's what mattered. Right. And, uh, it was always the mission.
00:45:21
Speaker
What's, what's, what's changed over the years for me is, um,
00:45:27
Speaker
is that philosophy, that mission first philosophy. You'll never hear me say mission first. The mission has to get done. That's not lost on me. It is a must that we accomplish our mission, right? or Or you're not sitting where you're sitting and I'm not sitting where I'm sitting drinking, drinking, drinking coffee. It's good coffee this morning. I made it myself. So the mission matters or America is not, not what it is.
00:45:51
Speaker
And, and we're safe. We got our issues that we that we work that we have to work through as ah as Americans ah in politics or what have you, right? But at the end of the day, we're safe.
00:46:04
Speaker
ah and and and And we have our military members that keep us safe. I'm thankful. I i did say to my folks that i before I left that I'm going to hang it up and I'm going sit back and I'm going to be in the stands applauding you because you are playing the game that keeps me and my family safe from here on out.
00:46:26
Speaker
But people first is is what i is what has been my leadership philosophy over, the I would say, probably the last seven years. People first, people always, and the mission will thrive. And that's <unk>s how I lead.
00:46:43
Speaker
So when I come in, I want to know who who it is that I'm working with. I want to know who my deputy is. I want to know what makes them tick. I let people run their programs.
00:46:54
Speaker
I give them the expectations. I do not micromanage them. Micromanagement means I don't trust you. And so if I don't trust you, then I'm going to do it myself. Or I'm going to tell you exactly how to do it and make sure that there's no room for error.
00:47:09
Speaker
But you and I know, Matt. That if there's if if we don't make mistakes, we don't learn. So your folks have to have the opportunity to make mistakes. Not the same ones over and over again, but they got to be able to to figure it out. And in the figuring it out, sometimes you're going to make a wrong turn. Sometimes you're gonna knock something over. You're going to make a mistake. But you learn and you get better. And that's where the experience comes from.
00:47:33
Speaker
So if I don't have a people first approach and it's just mission first, and i'm then mission first means people second, third, fourth. I don't know. What are the people? um yeah Right. So at the end of the day, people first means that is my focus.
00:47:47
Speaker
I build good people. I build great people. I will have great programs. I will have a successful mission. And so that has been my philosophy. Of course, there are ways to peel back the onion on that. and but really and But really, at every level of our business, whether you're talking a young airman, tailboard, whether you're talking a civilian or or dispatch or ECC, NCOIC or operator, no matter who it is that we're talking about in our business,
00:48:18
Speaker
Right. If I pour into that individual, into that person, and I just imagine every single and and they take it seriously and they're coachable and they buy in to that mindset. Think about all the different areas of your organization and how successful that organization becomes.
00:48:35
Speaker
Right. With a people first mentality. And so that's why. and And some folks think that that's leadership. But they but listen. They get to think that because they are they are walking their own journey and they are leaders in their own right who are getting experience. I've learned that that's not the best way for me.
00:48:54
Speaker
They got to learn what works for them. And if yelling and poking poking feet but people in the chest and putting your hand in their face and screaming to the top of your lungs works for you, then go for it. But i would i would I would tell you that used to be me, right, as a tech sergeant.
00:49:09
Speaker
I'm telling you that. That used to be me back in the day. I tried that. Well, it might have worked back in the day. It worked at moving the needle, maybe, right? Sure. But it didn't work. Yeah, autocratic leadership styles. I know you can look back in history. 100%. Watch movies, read books about, I don't know, the Civil War era, Revolutionary War era. You did what you're told. You did what you were told. in cases, if you didn't, if you were insubordinate, you could be put to death. You know what mean? Like it was – We're not in that era anymore. we for
00:49:40
Speaker
it worked for results, right? It was fear-based leadership. 100%. It didn't work for building people. And if you did build people, you built the type of person that did that, that did that type of that same thing.
00:49:58
Speaker
yeah Then we talk then that can you want to tie that into suicides? You want to tie that into folks leaving you and not wanting to be a part of your business anymore? You can tie all of that in. 100%. you can tie it into someone who says, you know what, I learned. It doesn't mean you can't challenge people. It doesn't mean that you can't push people. It doesn't mean you can't have a very deliberate conversation and go, hey, man, did I not explain to you what it was that we were doing?
00:50:28
Speaker
Okay, so what happened here? I told you what I needed. This is completely left and when we were supposed to be on right. I need you to explain to me what happened. Talk me through your process. Explain to me what happened.
00:50:40
Speaker
They explain it, and I say, okay, got it. I understand where we went wrong, but I want to make it very clear. This can never happen again. Can never happen again.
00:50:52
Speaker
We on the same page? going hurt Okay. All right. Sounds good. All right. You're back in the driver's seat. I expect to see yeah see better from you moving forward. Good? Good to go? Good to go. All Now, now what now what now who's had did that that kind of a conversation, what does that do for the individual? That individual now has a little bit of clarity.
00:51:13
Speaker
They're going to go back. They know I could have probably yelled, but I i wasn't a punk. I made it very clear what I wanted, and I used choice words. And that person walked away with hopefully an understanding what it is that I need from them.
00:51:31
Speaker
I do that differently. When they walk away, they're not thinking about what it is they have to get after, what it is that they have to correct. They're thinking about what I said to them, how I treated them, how I belittled them.
00:51:42
Speaker
that is And even if they were wrong in what it was that they did, that is the only thing that's in their mind. Not what they screwed up, what I said to them and how I treated them.
00:51:53
Speaker
They'll fix the problem because they're going to so they want to survive the environment. But they hate the hell out of me and they can't wait to get away from me. And to be honest, they're not going to give me their very best.
00:52:07
Speaker
So if I want their very best and I want to build them into somebody that gets that and pulls that from somebody else later because we're supposed to be force multipliers as leaders, then I need to figure that people person, that people part out.
00:52:21
Speaker
And and that's what i that's what I learned to do. I don't know if I mastered it. i won't say I mastered it. I just, because, you know, I made mistakes all the way up to the end, you know, but but I did do my best, I think, to take care of people and make sure that people felt proud of of working with me ah and ah and that our experience together was a good one.
00:52:43
Speaker
Yeah, human connection is the most important thing to us as human beings. And, you know when you don't cultivate a connection, when you see somebody or if a person senses that they're just a tool for the organization yeah and, you know, that they're not going to give you their best efforts. And there was something else that I but i thought of as you were talking that I wanted to mention. I thought it was worth capturing, but it just escaped me.
00:53:10
Speaker
Oh, gosh. You ever had somebody along those same lines just give you feedback and they just they just came up to you and said, um that's what i was gonna look yeah don't screw it, don't screw up, you're doing good, don't screw up.
00:53:26
Speaker
Got your feedback. When I learned that there was, so as a master sergeant, I had ah had a chief at the time looked through my records and they pointed out a bunch of things that I didn't have done and things that I needed to do. And so forth I became a big advocate of looking through people's records if they needed me to look through their records or definitely if they were my folks, I looked at my master sergeants, my seniors, my ah NCOs. I want to see your records, see what's in them. And i I did that for them because that was done for me. Have that not been done for me?
00:53:57
Speaker
I'm out of the, I'm not, I'm out of the air force a long time ago. ain't talking to you. Um, that That ain't happening because I'm long gone by this by this time. But that happened for me. And because that happened for me, it gave me kind of a roadmap of, and I thought I was doing good.
00:54:12
Speaker
Firewall 5 EPRs at the time. i'm like, what do you mean my records are jacked? What are you talking about? I got Firewall 5s. I was a fairly new master sergeant, had no idea that I was so far behind that I was shocked.
00:54:29
Speaker
And my feedbacks were always, keep on doing yeah your job. Like two second feedbacks, keep on doing what you're doing. I'm like, what? So I felt used. I felt hurt. Kind of like nobody told me these things. Right. And so, so to your point,
00:54:46
Speaker
When you have those individuals that kind of nobody laid it out, it just was an expectation. If you want to make it to this level, you're going to have to knock these types of things out. And once I had that spelled out and laid out for me, I was like, wow, I felt like a tool, though, before like, wow. So I was just being you just do your job.
00:55:06
Speaker
Don't screw up. Get out of my face. Yeah, but.
00:55:13
Speaker
Less than five individuals in my leadership, I'm talking Master Sergeant to Chief, where were were people that said, Hey, man, I see something in you.
00:55:24
Speaker
Give me your stuff. Let me look at you. Okay, you're doing good, but you need to knock these types of things out. Had I not had that, I'm not, I would have never made chief. I wouldn't made it. Yeah, it. I didn't make it by myself. I made it because some folks saw things in me that I didn't see in myself.
00:55:41
Speaker
And they said, hey, look, because of how you carry yourself and because of the things that you do and and and the way that you are, let us take a look at what it's going to take to get you to the next level. And that's putting the people first approach. I think sometimes, I think you alluded to this earlier, that people may may sense that that's kind of a weak leadership approach.
00:56:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But it's finding the balance between – that doesn't mean that you're always – I think the indirect approach to leadership is probably the best in making those human connections. But that doesn't mean that you're never direct when you have to be. So it's important to remember that you put the person – but yeah, as a leader, you do have a responsibility to hold standards. And when somebody doesn't meet a standard actually, that's your fault. you know That's on you to take accountability as the leader, the fire chief or whatever. Like if somebody made a mistake, that's my fault.
00:56:33
Speaker
We need to show that person what the right way is. We need to define a policy, maybe that it doesn't exist. Or what is the culture in my organization? Is there something that I said, did, or didn't say that set an expectation, set a culture where this person decided to make this decision? In some cases, listen, it's negligence.
00:56:52
Speaker
And we've seen that, but those are rare. And so I think for the people that may think that way, that, you know, putting the people first and not the mission first is is kind of a weakness and you're a soft leader and all these different things. Absolutely not.
00:57:06
Speaker
And there are times where you do have to be a bit autocratic, you know, Yeah. But, you know leadership is an art and this stuff is incredibly complex. And I think anybody that's leader understands that.
00:57:16
Speaker
But it's something that can be learned, too. You can. and That's that's my opinion. I think you you can learn some of these principles. You know, you can learn ownership. You can tell yourself to take accountability as a leader. Right. You can tell yourself to care about people and make a deliberate effort to do that. So I think that those are just some some important points.
00:57:33
Speaker
not Matt, you bring up some good good points. I think you're right. A lot all ah a lot of this can be learned. i'm talking I mean, Abraham Lincoln, if you look at some of the things that he did as a leader and some of the ways he got after things, he opened the White House up so people could just walk in and just want to sit down with him. And people lined up in the hallways and sitting down on in the White House like like it's customer service and he and he's available to talk to people about their issues. Like who? Mm-hmm.
00:57:58
Speaker
I don't know if that's ever been done before, but since him. But at the end of the day, that's he is known as one of throughout history is ah is a very, very instrumental and effective leader.
00:58:09
Speaker
I mean, we can go back to the medieval times and pick apart, you know, generals and different people who fought wars that were. Good leaders or and some of them were auto autocratic leaders, but at the end of the day.
00:58:24
Speaker
When we talk about this easy versus hard, weak versus strong, how hard is it that when somebody screws up, you get in their face and yell at them? How difficult is that?
00:58:35
Speaker
That's supposed to be It's uncomfortable. ah How difficult is it? I'm going to stand in front of you and hey, what's your problem? Hey, stupid. Hey, idiot. Get it together. I better not have to talk to you again. That is very easy in my in my opinion because that's emotional based.
00:58:52
Speaker
So I'm mad, I'm angry, I yell at you. That's easy. To be perfectly honest, I ain't trying to call nobody. I feel like it's a lack of control, lack of self-control.
00:59:03
Speaker
yeah emotional intelligence. When I tell an airman who just got in trouble, so before you go, I want to make something clear. I better not ever have you come to my office for anything outside of doing something excellent from this point forward. You understand?
00:59:23
Speaker
The next time you are in my office, it better be because I'm about to fist bump you from something awesome that you did. Is that clear? All right, you're dismissed.
00:59:35
Speaker
What's the difference? What was weak? What was strong? The question is, what was most effective? I could send the guy out of the room crying because of how I talked to him.
00:59:46
Speaker
Or I could have sent him out of the room with something in his head, planting a seed to let him know how I want him to carry himself when he walks out. I want you to be better versus you better not do it again I'm going to kick you out of my Air Force so far and so fast that you won't know what hit you.
01:00:06
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah, it's funny it's funny you bring up the... The loud emotional response versus the the stoic stern. And, you know, any of us who've been around long enough, you know, we've all been chewed out. You know, it's part of the experience. But think about those times that you've been chewed out, which hurts worse, the one where you're getting screamed at or the one where somebody who you respect.
01:00:29
Speaker
Correct. who has a calm demeanor is sitting you down and like, hey, listen, I'm disappointed. I'm telling you. Heart drops, you know what I mean? To me, that's that's been the most effective for me. like oh It makes you go back and look at yourself too. And you go back and go, I got to get my done. You question everything. You question all of it. Like, what have I been doing, you know? but Exactly. Versus you walk away from the guy that chewed you out and the only thing, even when you go talk to other people, you're like, hey, what happened, man? Hell, what damn, hey talking to me like that, yelling me, call me this, call me now. You ain't even thinking about what you did.
01:01:04
Speaker
All you thinking about is what the person said to you how they treated you, right? So not a now you ain't got nothing to go back in because you're trying to recover from the attack that you just got, right? You just got attacked.
01:01:16
Speaker
You're trying to let the dust set on recovering and get your get your your your manhood back. or your yeah You're trying to recover. You ain't thinking about ah your your shortcomings, you know, ah unless you're right. That person that you respected tells you, hey, man, I'm disappointed. I'm sorry. I hate that we found o ourselves in this position. I'm really disappointed at you.
01:01:37
Speaker
Or or in you then, yeah, you you ah you you walk away from that. I don't ever want to have this conversation again. Right. Yeah. That would hurt. That would hurt. Yeah, 100%. Well, Chief, we've eclipsed that hour mark, but I want to take the opportunity to give you the chance to give people advice for success. So 30 years, Chief Mass Sergeant, several bases.
01:01:56
Speaker
you It seems like your transition into the civilian world is... been successful thus far. You've cultivated this leadership approach that, you know, that I think has been successful.
01:02:08
Speaker
What kind of advice, maybe one or two things do you have for listeners on how they can succeed in their careers? Yeah, so um I would say the biggest thing is this is an it's it's your experience. Right.
01:02:21
Speaker
So what do you want to get out of this experience? What kind of experience do you want it to be? Do you want it to be a good experience? Do you want it? I think everybody probably would answer that.
01:02:32
Speaker
So you have to keep your, um the experience. Don't show up at a base and think that, all right, I'm here at this base and that's all about me. No, this is about the entire experience, all of it.
01:02:45
Speaker
Are you going to go places outside the gate and get involved in the community? Are you going to meet people and get to know your neighbors, right? Maybe one day when you're out of town, that neighbor is going to look out for your house so you because you got to know who they were and vice versa. Maybe your mail is going to show up at their house. They're going to come knock on the door and go, hey, I got some of your mail, right? But if they don't like you, they ain't bringing nothing. They're going to throw it in the trash. But at the end of the day, what kind of person are you? Are you adding to the experience are you taking away from it? Not just your experience. It's other people's experience, too. So, Matt.
01:03:21
Speaker
If we were stationed together, I'd be thinking about, hey, look, this is my experience and I want it to be a good one. But this is also Matt's experience and I don't want to take away from his experience. I should be adding to it. So always think about the experience and building a network with individuals that you can trust, being a strong part of somebody else's network.
01:03:44
Speaker
That's going to carry you far. You've heard the saying, your net worth is your net worth. But that all ties into the experience piece. I would also say, kind of have an idea of where you want to go and how you want it end. A recruiter who um who i was who I was talking to and helped mentor, he's recruiters, you know, some of them are out.
01:04:03
Speaker
in no man's land and they don't always have a chief or somebody available to kind of talk to them. And I just happened to meet one who was helping one of my ah relatives get into the Air Force. And he reached out and and asked me, hey, you know, can I talk to you about, you know, career stuff? And I was like, absolutely. So we talked.
01:04:22
Speaker
And he asked me about what he should do, you know, which should I go this direction and CE by trade? Should I go back to CE, do this? And so I said, man, you're asking me which direction you should go. There's a fork in the road or maybe there are different lanes and you don't know which lane to go down. I said.
01:04:39
Speaker
How about look at it this way? Where do you see yourself? Right. And so. This road may not. Maybe you see yourself on the top of that hill up there and none of these roads lead to the top of that hill. You probably have to go through now unpaved and uncharted territory to get to the top of that hill over there because none of these roads you take are going to get you there.
01:05:01
Speaker
You're looking at these paths. Where do you see yourself? Ten years down the line. So at the end of the day, I would say the road to success ah first starts with your goal and where it is that you see yourself.
01:05:17
Speaker
And if you see yourself as a chief master sergeant, then you start doing those things and talking to chief master sergeants, right? Some of us are talking to tech sergeants about what it is that we need to do to make chief.
01:05:33
Speaker
I'm sorry, I ain't going to be and get the answer there. They're going to tell you what what they did to make tech. And that's important because you got to get the tech to make chief. I'm not saying don't talk to techs and masters, but if your goal is chief, you better have a chief in your hip pocket that
Setting Personal and Professional Goals
01:05:46
Speaker
you need. And maybe your goal is finish 20 and then go civilian.
01:05:52
Speaker
Or maybe your goal is knock out four and go civilian. The road to success, Matt, I would say to any ah any of our fire dogs or anybody out there listening first starts with you deciding where you're going. Otherwise, you're just in a vehicle driving anywhere and hoping that you figure out ah a war that some rest station is going to end up being where you're going ultimately stop. Nobody's staying a rest station forever, right? So where's where where's your destination? Where are you going on this on this journey?
01:06:24
Speaker
A lot of guys are going rest station to rest station. And some folks are going, oh, this rest station is nice. I think stay here for a little while. No, you're not. It's like that guy in the memes. No, you're not. No, you're not. that It's where do you feel? If you want to go to yeah a certain destination, you get there, but it's going to start with with you making that decision.
01:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Great advice, Chief. One thing I've said on this podcast before, and I say to anybody who is willing listen is, and I think I alluded to it early in the podcast, it's like, as far as like your willingness to want to stay in the fire service, stay in the military, you don't necessarily know, you don't have things figured out. And the same with life. And what I like to tell people is like, well, figure out an aim, you know, and an aim towards something, understanding that along that path,
01:07:18
Speaker
You're going to take detours. You're going to decide different. You're going to grow a family, right? Like you're going to move to different locations. Opportunities are going to be presented to you that you had, you did not anticipate coming your way, but it's important to still have an aim and to still every day kind of, you know,
01:07:33
Speaker
And maybe it's professional development, maybe it's education, but, you know, build those relationships with people within that aim that, you you know, ah build that relationship with people in the fire service, fire chiefs, if that's what you want to do and and get those, hit those educational milestones. Like I have an, like for me, I like to use myself and as as an example. Like aspire to be in public safety in some capacity.
01:07:52
Speaker
Inside or outside the Department of Defense. Maybe that's in a fire department as a fire chief. Maybe that's an industry selling things to fire departments that need them or providing courses or instruction to classes. But I have an aim to stay in public safety. So I'm doing those things that I think are going to contribute to that. So always like to share that when the opportunity presents itself. But love it. Excellent advice, chief.
01:08:14
Speaker
and People get to change. yeah or You get to change. You get to decide, oh, you know what? I thought I was going to go do, I wanted to do this, but now, you know, I would think I want to do this You get to change course and decide I don't want to go in this direction no more. But who's making that decision? The person is. You are making that choice for yourself and deciding, oh, you know what? You are the commander.
01:08:32
Speaker
of your own ship. You are the CEO of of you, right? And at the end of the day, you get to make those decisions when it comes to making course directions for your life. And sometimes that means you got to turn around and and and go back to start looking at me back at Scott, right? At the end of the end of my journey. And at the end of the day, um I think ultimately that's what it's about. It's about having a clear understanding of where you want to go And if that changes and shifts, it's a deliberate change and shift based off of maybe new things that are going on in your life or new opportunities that presented themselves that weren't there, didn't exist at the time. You're 100% right, Matt. You're spot on with that, man. I definitely ah
The Value of Podcasts and Preserving Conversations
01:09:15
Speaker
appreciate that perspective.
01:09:17
Speaker
Yes, sir. Well, thank you for your time, Chief. Thank you for sharing your career up to this point. And the best of luck to you in your future endeavors. Hopefully we, you know, stay connected on LinkedIn. I'd love to see your progress on there. I'd love to see the things that you share. But thanks for taking the time to to share.
01:09:34
Speaker
Share some things with our audience and give the opportunity with with any final thoughts that you might have. Yeah, I just want to say thank you, Matt. I remember when you guys came online and ah and and it was it was it was new.
01:09:44
Speaker
And oh, my gosh, I just want to applaud you and the success of this podcast. This is ah an amazing thing that you're doing. Just having an opportunity to talk with our our firefighters and our leaders and in our business. So hats off. A big, crisp salute to you.
01:10:00
Speaker
Did you find ah a co-host yet? You got you got got a list of applicants here? Did you make a decision on who you do? Yeah, yeah yeah we we made a decision. we'll We'll be announcing it soon. Awesome. And, you know, yes, hopefully.
01:10:12
Speaker
Hopefully we, so we we kind of targeted ah a very specific kind of person at at a specific time in their career so that there's a little bit of tenure left there. I'm in the twilight of mine, potentially within the active duty side of the house. So was kind of targeting kind of a younger, but yeah, it's, I'm excited about the future and I appreciate that chief. And I just, you know, like I said earlier in the episode, just a student of history. And I think,
01:10:33
Speaker
what an excellent um What an excellent opportunity podcasts present to archive conversations. Like ah you and I have in this conversation today. Just as long as those servers stay intact, yeah you know, 20 years from now, we can go back and listen to like, what were they talking about?
01:10:48
Speaker
You know, imagine if we had that opportunity now to go back into the 90s and listen to what, you know what I mean? or even the 70s and Vietnam era or or whatever the case. So that's... That's what really motivates me to carry on and and just capture stories like this and capture initiatives. so i Kind of his work archive that had a conversation with Lewis F. Garland. What would that conversation have been like? Imagine.
01:11:09
Speaker
Crazy. Wouldn't that be incredible? My gosh. Or some of these guys that are that that are namesakes for some of our awards. What is Chief Sanders and and some others. But just to hear, what hey, what did they talk about? and so anyways.
01:11:22
Speaker
I appreciate you, Chief. Head off to you. Thank you so much, man, for what you guys are doing and what you've done for our career field. And I wish you all the best ah in in your future journey, man. ah And then we'll definitely be in touch. Okay. Thank
Closing Remarks and Expressions of Gratitude
01:11:34
Speaker
you so much for having me.
01:11:37
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Fire Dog Podcast. If you found value in today's conversation, please take a moment to rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice. It's one of the best ways to help us reach more firefighters and leaders across the fire service.
01:11:50
Speaker
You can find more episodes like this on our website, firedog.us, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at the Fire Dog Podcast. That is the Fire DAWG Podcast. Sharing this episode with a friend, coworker, or someone in your firehouse helps these conversations reach the people who need them most.
01:12:11
Speaker
This is Matt Wilson with Chief Master Sergeant Retired, Shanton Russell. Until next time, stay safe.