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71: Truths About Prison Ministry With Beauty For Ashes Founder, Gina Hanna
195 Plays2 years ago
Gina Hanna and her husband Derk founded Beauty for Ashes Ministry in 2009. Their vision was to drastically reduce recidivism in prisons across the United States by providing a biblically based Christ-centered program that focuses on healing past wounds and rebuilding on God's word. Her vision for the ministry came from her own personal struggle with drug addiction which led to her incarceration in 1998. Through her journey to true freedom and healing, she discovered her life’s mission and now uses her story to help and encourage others. Beauty for Ashes provides programming in prisons in Missouri and Kansas as well as operates a residential recovery center for women in Troy, MO, Shielded by Faith Recovery. You can support the recovery center by shopping at their thrift store, Beauty for Ashes Restore, located at 631 Main St., Troy, MO.
In this week’s episode, Ryan Pfendler and Jill Devine sat down with Gina to discuss prison ministry and why it’s so important for us to support the work she’s doing in the prisons.
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/BFAPrisonMinistry
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Transcript
Introduction to Jill Devine's Podcast
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Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset.
Jill's Faith Journey and Podcast Purpose
00:00:12
Speaker
This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The normal goes a long way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation. Well, hey everybody, it is good to be back. It has been
00:00:42
Speaker
many episodes since I've been on the podcast, but I hope you've enjoyed the conversations we've been having this series of stories that we've had on normal goes a long way. I've loved getting to hear some of the people we've had on. And when I heard that we were doing a stories focused season,
Gina's Story: Prison Ministry and Personal Transformation
00:01:01
Speaker
One person that came to mind was someone that I've heard a lot about through my wife, Jessica. Her name is Gina. And Gina, how about I let Gina tell her own story to you herself, Gina? I was going to say, Gina happens to be here. Gina's here with us. Hey, I'm right here. I'll talk now. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Gina.
00:01:22
Speaker
Um, well, yeah, uh, just like on the surface, I'm, um, a mom and, and married and, uh, have three kids. Um, but I do my full time gig is hanging out in prisons. I tell people I go to prison a lot. And if you ever want to go to prison, I can tell you how to get there. Um, tried it a couple of different ways, but yeah, I do a prison ministry. We also have a recovery center. So I run an organization called beauty fresh is a ministry.
00:01:49
Speaker
And the connection between my wife and Gina is that Jessica served in this prison ministry with Gina and did so for, I don't know, a year, two years, a while. I was a huge passion of hers. And when I first met her, I saw it in her Instagram bio that she did prison ministry. And someone who's bold enough to share the gospel in that environment,
00:02:14
Speaker
I was like, cool, maybe she should be my wife. And anyways, but then I got to know her story more and hear, you know, she said Gina was the one that plugged me in. She runs this thing. And so I just, I've been wanting to have this conversation for so long. So now here we are. Oh, that's awesome. Is prison ministry exactly the way it sounds? Is it that you are going into prisons and you are talking about God? For us,
00:02:44
Speaker
It's a longer story and maybe a little different, like the Lord is called.
00:02:49
Speaker
beauty for ashes to be a specific thing in the prisons. So just to give a background on that, this came out of my own personal journey and grew up in church, grew up in, I mean, grew up in church. And ministry is the family business in my family. So it was a surprise when I, well, ended up in college, ended up smoking weed, ended up selling weed, although I never called myself a drug dealer.
Challenges and Realizations in Prison Ministry
00:03:16
Speaker
I was just helping people out. It's the servant heart in me.
00:03:19
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It's really what that was. Anyway, helped out an undercover cop. So apparently you're supposed to ask first. I did not. So anyway, first time ever in trouble, quarterback of marijuana, which now you can buy at the store in Missouri, so weird. I ended up going to prison for that. So first time ever in trouble. And so I knew, say I grew up in church and I grew up knowing that God does speak to us.
00:03:46
Speaker
Which some people may not understand what that means, but it's kind of that gut feeling like I heard this thought in my head the moment I got a sentence saying this is for a reason and so Went to prison thinking they're gonna be so glad they sent me there. I love people I love these kind of people and I'm gonna save all of them not necessarily for the Lord But I'm gonna fix them all because that was my other addiction was fixing people never works out and
00:04:12
Speaker
Um, but got there and I was like, yeah, I don't want to fix anyone. I just want to get home and not get beat up. Um, but met amazing women. And when I heard their stories, most of them weren't from the same kind of background I was from. And so I left with a real burden, especially when they said seven out of 10 of you are coming back. I'm like, well then what you're doing, it's not working. You know, it's not working. So.
00:04:35
Speaker
I left there with a burden and within six months I was right back in my addiction and I was a mom and I was on probation for five years. I had all the reasons, all the things that we judge about people in that situation going, why don't you just quit? Like you could go back to prison, why don't you just quit? I really got to understand what addiction was really about and how I couldn't just quit.
00:04:56
Speaker
And so, um, I asked the Lord about that. Like, why did you send me there? If you know, it didn't change my life. I wasn't living for the Lord by any means. Well, there's such a long story behind that, but I was pretty sure I was going to hell at that point. I didn't understand God's grace. Um, and so I was, I was like, Oh, you know, what was this about? If you said it was for a reason and that night he showed me, I could see a wing of the prison in my mind.
00:05:23
Speaker
And I had these thoughts that said, you're going to figure out how to get set free. And when you do, you'll take that
Beauty for Ashes: Mission and Impact
00:05:28
Speaker
back. And so 10 years later, I got set free from my addiction through a course that we have at our church called Oaks of Righteousness. And it was kind of an inner healing course. So when I went through that class and got set free, I'm like, okay, we got to take this back. And so.
00:05:43
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God just opened doors and eventually we did have he gave us a ministry that was already existed but it was a wing of the prison and it lined up just with that vision that I'd had 10 years prior. So our thing is we want people to get set free from their childhood stuff. I mean God doesn't make criminals. We're all made in his image and so there is a moment in life where
00:06:08
Speaker
pain happens or love gets taken away and we start to believe lies about ourselves that lead to these things. So we gotta go back to that root stuff. And so that's what we do as a prison ministry is we help people get to that stuff so they can get their identity in the right place and start living the way God has created them to live. I'm loving this image that someone spoke over you, seven out of 10 of you returned here and they tried to say that over you is like a curse and you came back
00:06:36
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in a sense of blessing to bless other people. And it's like, I just love that they tried to throw that at you in a negative way. And you somehow said, I'm going to come back.
00:06:47
Speaker
but I'm gonna change these people. And I'm gonna serve the Lord when I come back into this place. So you said we, I'm guessing when you say we, you're talking about the organization work for what is that organization? Or was it an organization when you were first starting? How did you develop into who's the we? Who's the we? Yeah, when I say we, I do refer to Beauty for Ashes ministry. So part of,
00:07:09
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uh, part of that journey moving forward was I got out of my first marriage, which was a hot mess. I was a hot mess in that marriage. I mean, I don't blame my ex, but we were both addicts and we were both unfaithful spouses and things got worse before they got better. But finally I ended up back in church and I met my husband who I'm married to now.
00:07:29
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And told him on the first date, I'm going to do prison ministry someday. And he's like, good for you. I'm not going to prison. I'm like, oh. And so the second date, I'm like, small problem. I'm still an addict. I'm still getting high every week or every day, every few hours, really, at that point. And so.
00:07:47
Speaker
He stuck with me and we went through that class together. But then, so when I was, it was time for me to start serving again, I got pregnant, we got married and I got pregnant right away. So I took a year off and then it was time to start serving back in the church. And, you know, um, and he reminded me, you said you always wanted to do prison ministry. So the Lord opened the doors, but we founded beauty for ashes together. So it's our organization that we're founders of.
00:08:12
Speaker
So when I refer to the we, we have a lot of volunteers. I mean, I tell people all the time, the Bible is clear. We are supposed to visit those in prison. So our heart is to open an opportunity for people to answer that call that the Lord
Empathy and Understanding in Prison Ministry
00:08:25
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has. But for all Christians, I mean, if you go to that verse, you actually find out he's actually got to judge us against whether or not we're serving the least of these.
00:08:34
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And so we want to make sure everyone has an opportunity. If they feel like they want to go to prison to do it, they can serve the homeless. They can serve, you know, people in the hospital. There's a whole bunch of people on that list. I was wondering about the individuals in prison and how many are open to listening to what you have to say, what others have to say. I wrote down
00:09:03
Speaker
I see criminals and I am conflicted. I think I've realized, and someone brought this to my attention not too long ago, that now that I am working in the church and developing my relationship with the Lord, I've always had compassion and empathy. I do, like I'm to a fault. Really? Yes. But now I'm starting to see things where
00:09:29
Speaker
Instead of immediately going that person is awful Like I see this news story and this they screwed up over and over and over and over and over again Because this had happened recently and I just remember watching the TV and going There has to be hope But Maybe there isn't for some I don't know it just like
00:09:55
Speaker
I feel almost judged by people that would say, how can you say that? And it's like, well, but I don't know, only God knows. I wanna give this person a chance, even as wrong and horrific as something may be. But I also have to think that there probably are people too that just, I don't know.
00:10:19
Speaker
I don't know, will they see the Lord? I don't, I'm just very conflicted. So I would say that's the same inside of a prison as it is inside a wide say Walmart, but some people might think.
00:10:31
Speaker
That's the same level. I don't know. Target. Target. There we go. I love people watching. I like going to Walmart. But yeah, so it doesn't matter where you're at. Is there hope for any of us? And it really is a freewill decision for all of us, right? At the same time, you'd be surprised who's in prison.
00:10:51
Speaker
Running a prison ministry, I talk to a lot of people who, and I speak at churches all over the place, in all sorts of different neighborhoods, and they'll come up and say, my daughter's in prison. I mean, there's always a family member. So people are more connected to people in prison than you would be surprised. Whether it's a family member that's an addict or the person themselves that says, I'm only one decision away, or I just didn't get caught. So I think the stuff that leads to someone going to prison is,
00:11:20
Speaker
It's not just for people in poverty. It's not just for lower class or anything like that. It is a sin issue and it is a issue of choice, but it's also an issue of we all have the same enemy on the same mission. And this is what I tell people. It is not easy to fundraise for a prison ministry because of this mindset of like, no, they've done a crime, they need to be locked away, yada yada.
00:11:48
Speaker
So I always say, you know what, what if I came to you and I said, hey, I'm raising money for an organization that serves children. And these are children that are abused. They've been raised in drug-addicted homes. They've been sexually abused. They've been physically abused. And we're coming in and we're helping them have a voice. And we're saving them from that circumstance or that situation. Absolutely, we want to put our money behind that. That is who we're serving. And we're helping these adults who
00:12:18
Speaker
100% were raised in at home, whether it was in a good neighborhood or bad. That is the story of most of the people that are in prison. We're helping them have a voice to go and forgive the persons that hurt them and to start realizing they have worth and they have value because God created them in his image.
The Role of Faith and Transformation in Ministry
00:12:37
Speaker
And because Jesus paid the highest price that gives them value and worth. And once they can see that as their truth, it changes everything.
00:12:46
Speaker
I think that the gospel's message is one of God wants to recreate us, not punish us. I mean, that is exactly why Jesus came. He could have punished us and he said, I would rather reform you and recreate you and work on your heart and change you because I love you so much, I wanna spend eternity with you. And I was thinking too, Jill, about your question. And I just reminded of,
00:13:15
Speaker
Paul in 1 Corinthians, he says, I've become all things to all people so that I might reach some. I try to remind myself that he finishes off by saying, so that I might reach some.
00:13:26
Speaker
in the sense that he knows that he's going to put in a lot of work that won't return the fruit he would have liked to see. He's like there's going to be people that reject my message. I'm going to become all things to all people and a lot of them might reject me yet I'm still putting in the work to reach them because this is my calling and this is
00:13:47
Speaker
Honestly, I think Paul just saw it as this is who I am now. There wasn't the separation between is Paul a Christian and is he someone who goes to reach the lost? I think he said, I'm a Christian, therefore I gotta go reach these people and do whatever it takes.
00:14:05
Speaker
That's a point of grace I try to put on myself too, as someone in ministry, that you're gonna put work into people, and it doesn't matter how much work you put in, some will reject you, but you do it for the joy of the people who are there. And so, I don't know, Gina, I'm like, I guess,
00:14:28
Speaker
it's probably maybe helpful to say, yeah, so I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna expect some rejection, but I'm also expecting the spirit to move in unexpected ways too.
00:14:39
Speaker
Most of what we do, like our program that was in the prison full time. That's where I met Jessica. She served with us. We do not have that program going right now because of COVID. It shut down and then we didn't end up coming back. But it was a volunteer program. No one was required to go. And you didn't even have to have a relationship with Jesus to come to the program, but you had to know we're going to talk about Jesus.
00:15:01
Speaker
people signed up for all the wrong reasons. And sometimes, you know, because it would give you a chance to get moved to our wing. And if you had a friend that you wanted to live on the same wing, you could both sign up for the program. But let me tell you, I went to use camp for all the wrong reasons. But I met Jesus there. You know, I mean, I went to use camp because I wanted to beat the boys there or whatever else. But but it was in those experiences that laid the foundation that I came back to. So
00:15:25
Speaker
I always say, I don't care why you show up. I don't care if you come to our events in the prison because we give out food and whatever else you're going to have an opportunity to hear the gospel. And that's great. And if you don't receive it, um, I pray that maybe I planted a seed that someone else will get to water and maybe someone else will. It's up to the Lord for the increase, but maybe someone else will get to witness that. But I think we all play a journey whether you're in the prison or not. I mean, I just think that that's part of following Jesus is loving God and loving others.
00:15:52
Speaker
The other thing that I try to remind myself of, and you can speak more into this, but how many of these people you're encountering are people who are, we'll just say, they're just evil in a vacuum, they're just...
00:16:07
Speaker
they're wrong and no one else had any influence on them versus how many are people who you might label them at first to someone of, Oh, they're, they're wrong. They're bad. But when you hear their story, it's, Oh, they had all these influences on them in their home or in their communities that are they in prison? Yes. But they also victim on some level or, or,
00:16:34
Speaker
I want to say any more, but I think you know what I'm asking. I totally do. And it just comes back down to, are we all created in God's image?
00:16:44
Speaker
The answer is yes. And so something has to happen for someone to go from that to being pure evil. And it 100% comes down to having an enemy, right? And that we're in a spiritual battle and that the enemy is on a mission to steal, kill and destroy. But then there's a story behind that that you just don't go from being created in God's image coming out and then.
00:17:07
Speaker
to pure evil. I did by the pastor of the church that I'm on staff with. He's not the pastor there now. But anyway, we had a conversation about Charles Manson and he was like, I feel like he is just, there's no hope for him. And I was like, I don't know. I just, I would love to meet him and like to be able to like, go let's talk. Like, I mean, is there some demonic stuff happening there that you'd probably have to use the name of Jesus to deal with?
00:17:30
Speaker
possibly, probably. But that's because it's a spiritual battle, but we fight from a place of victory. So there can, I feel like there could be victory in anyone's life if they choose that direction. I just don't think that there's anyone that was created that way. And there's hope for all of us to be transformed.
00:17:48
Speaker
That's one of the stories Jess shares with me is the more you get to know people who've been there, the less, the more empathy you have for them. You know, the closeness creates the empathy, the more, you know, the stories, it creates empathy and, um, just stories about people who they're there because
00:18:11
Speaker
they had to do something illegal to stop someone who's doing something even worse to them or to their families. And it's like, Oh, so they had to pick say between protecting their kid in a certain way or letting their kid continue to be in a terrible situation. I'm like, like that, that breaks my heart for them. And, and that, and, um,
00:18:37
Speaker
I've only heard those stories through her experience. But it's just a reminder, too, that you were saying this. The enemy is not really the flesh and blood. It's the forces of Satan that are working on us in so many ways that we don't always understand. If I don't understand that, I can't have grace for people. But when I see that, it's like, oh, God.
00:19:08
Speaker
You know, I also thought about what you said that some of these, you've met all these people who've said, I just got lucky. The only reason I'm out there is because I just got lucky. And I'm like, yeah, I've gotten lucky in my life too. If I had gotten caught doing something that I shouldn't have been doing, I could have been put into a, you know,
00:19:32
Speaker
who knows, I'm just, I'm reminded that just because I'm lucky doesn't mean I'm somehow better than these other people around me.
Addressing Generational Trauma and Sin Cycles
00:19:42
Speaker
And you know, so I ended up in prison, which does surprise people when they, you know, not that, you know, but I mean, it's a surprising story, especially if you know my family and you know, you kind of know my story. But even in that, so I grew up in a church, but I grew up in church in the time where
00:19:59
Speaker
I would say it was more legalistic. We weren't talking about God's grace so much, and I grew up in a church where it felt like there was an inner and out, and that you could lose your salvation. I didn't know where the cutoff was, but I grew up in a good Christian family, but my dad traveled for work, and he hates it when I tell this story because he feels like I'm blaming him, but I'm saying,
00:20:21
Speaker
His absence in our home made you go just I mean you do it on a subconscious level of I will do anything to get a guy to stick around because you just want that safety and security that comes because we're supposed to get it from the Lord, but the enemy starts to lie to you about where your value and your worth comes from.
00:20:39
Speaker
super busy. He comes home on the weekends. He's got to do the yard work and everything else to get things caught up because he's gone. Dad, I just want you to see me. The enemy starts to lie to you about your value and worth. So what do I do? 14, I start having sex.
00:20:53
Speaker
growing up in a legalistic church. This is the stuff that you're going to go to hell with. This is the shame that comes from that. So you can take even the best situation, but that just shows you how and always comes down to value and worth and always comes down to love. I'm looking for love in all the wrong places. I've got this God size hole and I'm going to turn to anything else to either
00:21:13
Speaker
Make up for the fact that i've been rejected or to numb the pain from the fact that i've been rejected and. We all have that story, you can look at your own lives and go okay yeah that hits that hits a little home for me, I could kind of see that in my own life, we all that have that story.
00:21:30
Speaker
It gets worse when these kids had no one to protect them. I mean, I can't tell you how many women, and not every one of them has this story, but I've met quite a few whose parents in their own addiction, in their own mess, because it's a generational curse, generational sin, put, prostituted out their kids to pay for their drugs.
00:21:52
Speaker
It's human trafficking, but it's happening in our communities here in Missouri by parents that are in a big old mess. And that leads to, I mean, talk about the pain and talk about thinking you have no value and worth and what you will do to, to feel loved or to numb that.
00:22:07
Speaker
leads to prison oftentimes. Well, and it, you know, this was a conversation that I had with Pastor Jim Mueller. When you mentioned Charles Manson, we had a conversation about, um, we had done a worship series at the church that I work at called offended by mercy. And he very much talked about Jeffrey Dahmer and how one sin
00:22:32
Speaker
isn't bigger than another sin. And that's a very hard concept. And so as I'm thinking about someone who may be listening, who is like, no, Gina, this, and you mentioned it too, Ryan, like this is what they did. They need to pay. How do you address that with those people, whether it's
00:23:01
Speaker
a misdemeanor drug felony, I don't even know if I'm even using the right words, to a robbery or even a murder. There is hope for everyone, but I know that there is someone listening right now saying, no, no, that murder is not in the same category as a carjacking. Yeah, so I've never said no one doesn't need to pay for the crime because I think if you, there is,
00:23:30
Speaker
laws for a reason. We're told in the Bible to submit to authority to to follow the laws of the land. And if you break them, there's accountability. If you get caught, there is a price you have to pay for that. And I think there's a reason that Jesus says go visit those in prison, because he knows the brokenness that leads to that. So I'm not saying that price shouldn't be paid, but I'm saying
00:23:52
Speaker
He calls us there to bring hope to those people for a reason and to stop that cycle. We have to show up in that place and bring hope and bring the gospel and bring truth so that that cycle can be broken. But yeah, even now, I mean, I don't even understand my son who.
00:24:10
Speaker
is on his own journey, um, was saying, you know, mom, your crime, I don't, I didn't end up with a felony charge, which is a blessing, but I could have, and right now it could have gotten expunged because they just legalized marijuana. I'm like, that makes no sense to me because it was against the law when I broke that law. I mean, there was a reason I should have paid that price. So I think that there, I think it's true. Someone breaks the law, but that, but there's gotta be hope for them to, to be able to change their life. And if you just throw them in there,
00:24:37
Speaker
There are programs in the prison, but the state is not bringing Jesus. And if you're, if you've experienced it, you know, Jesus truly is the only answer.
00:24:46
Speaker
Not to say people haven't gotten sober with AA and NA and things that will allow you to pick your higher power. You can find hope and freedom, but I'm just telling you, it happens a lot faster in a relationship with Jesus. When you find the one thing that you truly were created to fill that hole in your heart and to get your identity from and your value and your worth from, it changes everything. You know, actually, I was gonna say this earlier. You were talking about the transformation that happens
00:25:11
Speaker
The word says in Romans, I think it's 12 too, I'm really bad with addresses. I always say, ask Google if you don't know, she knows the whole Bible. So Google, what is the verse about becoming a new, being transformed? So don't conform to the ways of the world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, which is changing your belief system. So if I change my belief system,
00:25:33
Speaker
that I no longer am a pot. For me, it was I'm not a pothead. I call myself a pothead all the time. I was an unfaithful wife. I was a terrible mom who was getting high and my kids were hanging out in front of the TV while I ran to the garage to smoke weed. You know, I could tell you all the terrible things about myself.
00:25:50
Speaker
But that's not who God says I am. So I had to change the way I thought about that. And when I changed the way I thought to, okay, I'm a child of God, I'm perfectly and wonderfully made with a purpose. Everything that the Bible says, when you change that belief system to truth, I became a new creation.
Gina's Personal Transformation and Ministry Insights
00:26:07
Speaker
I'm no longer the person that's doing all those things because I now understand that's not who I am. If that makes sense.
00:26:13
Speaker
I actually, we got a big overview of how you, of your whole story just earlier, but I want to know what, was there a moment that the realization you just said, how did you get there? So this class Oaks of Righteousness, which was the class that
00:26:33
Speaker
that I knew God had said you're gonna figure it out and then you'll take that back. What we do in that class is the first few weeks is just learning about spiritual strongholds, meaning learning about the moments where the enemy came in and stuck some whatever it would be in the ground claimed this part in my life. So that happens through unforgiveness, it happens through
00:26:54
Speaker
holding on to rights, like I have a right to having changed my past or I have a right to this future. It happens through pride, self-pity, performance orientation. So we teach on all of these things, showing areas. And there's teaching also and just kind of identifying, okay, when this happened, I started to believe this lie. When this happened, I started to believe this lie.
00:27:16
Speaker
But then what we do halfway through that class is we went through prayer ministry. So I went through this class and in my prayer ministry, I literally sat down and said, I will tell you. So you tell your life story and then someone helps you pray for these things. So I'm like, I don't know why I'm so screwed up because honestly, I come from a great home. So I tell my whole story.
00:27:33
Speaker
And it was there that the leader said, did your dad travel? Or was your dad gone a lot? And I was like, yeah, that was a big part of my life. And he said, do you think you believe the lie that I have to give myself away to have value and worth? And because it came out in codependence, it came out in sex, it came out in anything and everything. And so for me, I had to go and they just walked us through. It was nothing major, but you take things through the cross. So I just had to pray and say,
00:28:01
Speaker
Lord, I forgive my dad for not making me a priority. I forgive the church for not showing me grace. I, you know, I had to go through forgiveness. So I just prayed through forgiveness. I relinquish my right to change the past and I break the lie. And here's the thing we have power to break the lies that we've believed.
00:28:19
Speaker
and replace it with truth. So I break the lie that I'm a pothead. I break the lie that I am a terrible mom, that I can never be faithful. I break the lie that my value and worth comes from the attraction of men, because it was such a problem for me. And if any guy would look at me, and I could tell that he was attracted to me, well, psh.
00:28:38
Speaker
Most guys are attracted to any woman. It didn't really mean anything about me, but I would take it as, he loves me. He wants to be with me. You know, I mean, just that brokenness in me. So I had to break all those lies and in that prayer time and then it was, and Lord, I replace it with the truth from your word. And there's something when you pray to the Lord and you get this revelation of that truth that it changes you. And so it was just going through.
00:29:01
Speaker
that prayer time that did it. I don't know, it sounds so simple and it really is that simple, but that was the marker moment for me that started to walk that out. Now, am I perfect in it? No. Do I have moments where I start to say terrible things about myself? Yeah, take those thoughts captive and submit them to be obedient to what the word says, and that's how you fight that battle.
00:29:23
Speaker
So it wasn't the harsh judgment of prison that changed you. It was the presence of humans who cared about you in the midst of that that changed you. So then if we maybe then shouldn't assume that prison's so bad that I'll do its job and I'll fix these people. It didn't fix me. I came right back into my addiction. I stayed away from church because I thought you had to be perfect to go there.
00:29:48
Speaker
Had a grandma. I mean, I'm like seven years into this addiction. I'm having affairs on my husband, my ex-husband. I lived in her house. So she saw her and I'm smoking weed in her basement. So I'm sure she can smell it through the fence. But she saw everything that was going on. She's like, Gina, you just need it. You need to go back to church. I'm like, Graham, I want to go, but I can't get myself together for that. And she's like, Gina, you need to raise your kids in church, which I really wanted. I wanted a different life. I wanted a different marriage. I wanted a different family. So I show up to this church.
00:30:18
Speaker
And within a few weeks, I have a conversation with one of the pastors. Well, one, I showed up to the church, and it didn't burn down. That was a good sign. And then I realized, I looked around. I'm like, everyone else looks just as screwed up as I do. So that's cool. And then had a conversation with one of the pastors. I was serving in children's church. And he was talking to the kids about sin. He was talking about baptism. But he was talking about sin. And you know what?
00:30:48
Speaker
all have sinned in our lives. And I'm like bawling. And I was serving in like four different services. We had four services. I served in all of them because I was trying to get my identity and what I did. And, and so he calls me on Monday and he's like, Gina, what's going on? You cried a lot during so that I told him, I'm like, I haven't told you, but I'm still smoking weed. I get high on my way to church. And he's like, Okay, is that all I'm like?
00:31:08
Speaker
Yes. So I'm waiting for him to say, get it together like they did when I was growing up. And he said, Gina, the church is not a country club. It's a hospital. So we're all kind of broken to meet the one that heals us. This is a character issue and God is going to deal with that. And then he mentioned, you might want to take oaks of righteousness, which I avoided for three years because it took me a while to.
00:31:31
Speaker
I always say 51% of you needs to want to change because I can tell you 49% of me wanted to change so long the whole time I wanted a different life but it wasn't until I got to the 51% that I finally said yes to walking through that. This might sound like a silly question but when you talk about that course
00:31:51
Speaker
I mean, is that something, you don't have to have something major in your life to do something like that, right? That's exactly right. I mean, I was just telling the folks that I have a whole bunch of people taking it right now that signed up for it, because they're serving in the prison ministry and not all of them had a story of addiction and stuff. I'm like, trust me, you were going through this course because we all have an enemy. And this is just teaching you how to identify, it all comes down to the lies and truths, right? Because Jesus is truth and he is love.
00:32:21
Speaker
And the enemy is fear, and he is lies. And that's really the battle. It comes down to perfect love, cast out fear, and truth will break the lies. And if we can just get ourselves in that place, we all have a battle with that. Everyone needs, not everyone has to have this course, but everyone needs to find truth and get their value and worth from this love, from God. I know you can't see my hands pointing up, but that's where they're going.
00:32:48
Speaker
Alright, I'm going to ask you a question that would be really helpful for me in ministry. So it's completely, I could use some advice. How do you balance? It sounds like there was an understanding of, maybe this is true in your ministry too, like confronting that the wrong things you did were wrong.
00:33:11
Speaker
But the gospel says that you're loved and forgiven. I mean, it feels like sometimes we lean very heavy into the, just admit that you're wrong.
00:33:22
Speaker
Um, but we're not going to promise you the gospel and we lean too heavy into the, your love you're forgiven. In fact, even the things you did wrong, weren't really that bad. Did you need both to be transformed yourself? Or is that what you're trying to do with your women in prison or how does that balance work? I guess. So I think it is, um,
00:33:45
Speaker
I think this is things that divide denominations. So I think until we get to heaven, we're not really gonna know. We're all gonna go, we were all wrong a little bit. But from my experience.
00:33:57
Speaker
because I went from the legalistic message of, now you've screwed up too much. You didn't, you were wrong and now you're not in, so to speak. At least that's what the enemy lied to me about because he didn't want me to be in. To the grace message. And then I was like, oh wait, but grace doesn't expect a heart change. Grace says, you put your faith in Jesus and you're saved. And that is true. That is in the Bible and the gospel says that. Believe it in your heart and confess it with your mouth.
00:34:27
Speaker
but what the Holy Spirit does and what the Bible is very clear about is that true relationship. If you truly believe that, then you're in a relationship with Jesus. And in that relationship, you're spending time with him. You're in his word. You're not just checking a box that you're going to church on Sunday. You're not, you know, you are truly a hundred percent in this relationship and you can't help but be transformed through that. And then you start to hate that sin. Then you start to not want to do it, not because it's a right or wrong.
00:34:56
Speaker
It's because the Lord transforms the way you think. I mean, then you do become a new creation. It's all spelled out there. Um, and do I understand if there's, um, how God judges the heart? No, I don't think any of us do. Um, but I do think, I think the transformation comes through the relationship and I think that's
Church as a Place of Grace and Authenticity
00:35:15
Speaker
what we push. We push love and we push, um, that loving kindness will draw you to repentance and that repentance is a change in believing.
00:35:26
Speaker
in Jesus, and then, and then saying, Hey, this is your I don't even call myself a Christian, because there's such like, I don't even I call myself a follower of Jesus, because I follow Jesus, and I not only follow him, I hang out with him. And as my son taught me when he was seven, and he was praying, and he said, I prayed a lot last night to my mom, and she said,
00:35:48
Speaker
Oh, this is when I was going through my divorce. So she's like, Oh, I bet you were. What were you praying about? And he's like, Oh, I was telling him knock, knock jokes. I'm like, that's the kind of relationship I want to have with Jesus. I want to tell you knock, knock jokes. I want to like do life with you. And I think when we do that, it changes us from the inside out.
00:36:04
Speaker
This is making me think about that question I asked before we came on. I think about these women you're serving, I think about your story, and I show up at the church on a Sunday, and when those thoughts come to me, I wonder, is this a place where someone who's been there in that situation would feel welcomed and loved? And then I realize, oh, I don't know what they're looking for in a church, and I don't have an answer.
00:36:34
Speaker
For those in our audience who go to churches, who are church leaders, whatever their positions are, whether you're a leader in your church in a staff sense or you're just attending, we all have voices on some level, right? What does it look like to have a church where someone who's been in your shoes could come in and feel welcome and loved and not judged and not rejected? And what do we do about that?
00:37:04
Speaker
So, um, I think it's, I think it is the message of grace that causes people to live authentically. And I think it takes leadership being super authentic. And I think if I feel like if a, if leadership is not being really authentic and transparent, then it puts on the
00:37:26
Speaker
message, then we all need to kind of keep keep a mask on. But true grace says take off your mask. True grace says you can come as you are, you can be as honest as you are, you're going to be loved. And that love is going to change you. So go ahead and show up the way you are. So I think that that's what it comes down to. I don't know. I don't know this church. I don't know what churches people are going to. But I tell the ladies, find a good church home and find one that's serving others like that is
00:37:54
Speaker
you know, that has ministries that are going out that are feeding the poor that are taking care of the least of these because that is
00:38:00
Speaker
requirement and then find ones that ideally have like a celebrate recovery and I'm telling you the church I'm in suburb I mean we're in the suburbs we but but we are serving these kind of people and our celebrate recovery is filled with all upper middle-class people so I'm telling you it's not just it is in every area of life just because someone hasn't gone to prison doesn't mean they're not struggling with the exact same things that
00:38:27
Speaker
people in prison are or don't have stories, you'd be surprised. I got up on state, I was teaching a message, I am a pastor too, and I am on our communications team. So I was teaching a message on grace. And that's where the first time I shared about my affairs, because I had shared about going to prison, but I that was the one thing, because I had an affair with one of my closest friends, fiance or whoever it was, they weren't married, but I never wanted to be that person.
00:38:54
Speaker
And that was the story of shame that I had the hardest time ever saying. And I was well into being a pastor before I ever really said it out loud. I mean, my husband that I'm married to now knows about it, my ex-husband knows about it. But I shared that from the stage. And I'm telling you, you could hear a pin drop. But afterwards, the line of people that stood up and talked to me in this upper middle class church that looks pretty suburbanite. They talked to me about their addiction issues and talked to me about their infidelities.
00:39:24
Speaker
and their broken marriages was so long. And they're like, thank you for being a pastor that would be willing to admit these things. And I think that's what it takes. And that's one of the things that I just wrote down well into this conversation, that you're so joyful, you're so normal, and that we need people to speak like you. We need people to bring these hard truths up.
00:39:53
Speaker
And it is one of those things that sometimes you are fed all these different lies or you just don't understand scripture. It's me, like, I don't understand what they're asking me to do here. And so we just have to, I'm not saying simplify it, but in a way, yes, simplify it. Just state it so I understand. Do you know what Jesus did to simplify it?
00:40:19
Speaker
said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. It all comes down to that. We don't have to make it harder than that. But to love my neighbor as myself, I gotta start loving myself, and then I've gotta stop judging. I mean, ultimately, right? Stop having preconceptions, at least. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I'm thinking about your parameters you give to your girls, and I'm like, those are good. And I think it'd be good for churches to be more public about how they're sending.
00:40:49
Speaker
because that's what people are seeing, right? Are you going out and loving and caring for people that don't look like you or that aren't in your building yet or already because they're not in your building yet or already and they might not look or act like you, but if they can see that, oh, they're open enough to love and be present in the lives of those that aren't there yet and that might not look like them. So that means maybe I can,
00:41:13
Speaker
belong there too. Maybe it comes down to churches. I'm thinking, how can we better celebrate the ways we're in the lives of others like that?
00:41:26
Speaker
And the other reason I say that is because even though I was like, I always say a hot mess when I showed up to my church. I mean, I was, I was still in my addiction and I was getting high on the way there. And I was hiding so many things until I realized I'm going to be super honest about it. And, um, and I can be, and people are going to love on me through it. But my, so much of my growth came from being, having opportunities to serve.
00:41:50
Speaker
And there's a lot of churches that really, the pastors do everything and there's no opportunity for the people in the church to do anything. Thankfully, our church's motto was every member is a minister, so every member, you need to be doing
Expanding Ministry Beyond Prisons
00:42:04
Speaker
something. You need to be serving coffee or being a greeter or serving outside of the church and going and, you know, we have a food pantry, all those things. But it was doing those things that was my discipleship process. It was doing the things that Jesus did that
00:42:17
Speaker
changed my heart to be more like Jesus. So that's why I'm like, ladies, you've got to go do these things because that's how you're going to grow to be more like Christ is to do the things of Christ. Yeah. And I'm completely convicted. I want to know how I can help right now. And so I think that that's what we need to know before we wrap this up is what can we do? How can we help? I mean, I'm ready. Well,
00:42:43
Speaker
So I would say, so I'm on the other side of the state from where I live, but we have, so in Troy, Missouri, if you're listening from the east side of the state, I don't know how far your reach goes, but when I say state Missouri, we have a recovery center in Troy, Missouri. We moved our program outside of the prison because a couple of reasons. I had a lot of people say, my kid needs that program. My daughter needs that program. Like, you don't want her to go to my program because you don't want your daughter to have to go to prison to get into it.
00:43:11
Speaker
but we also moved it out because we had a judge in the area that said he brought together probation and parole he brought together all the state agencies and then he brought together some churches he was he's Catholic he follows Jesus and he said okay probation and parole what are your issues and they listed a whole bunch of issues they had with getting people
00:43:29
Speaker
transformed and they said, okay, churches, how can you meet that need? And we're like, wow. I mean, we were, there's a ministry. But he said, if you would provide answers to these problems, I will send people to your answers instead of sending them to prison. And that's when we're like, okay, we're going to put something in the community then.
00:43:46
Speaker
And he does. I mean, he will call from, he will have someone on the stand and he's like, okay, I'm about to send this woman to prison, but she's willing to do something that focuses on Jesus. She doesn't believe in him, but she said she'd go to it. Well, you take her and Denise is like, sit her my way. And so, um, so that's what we have it. So we're in Troy. We need volunteers from that. Um, we have opportunities to serve in the women's prison in Vandalia through a partnership with another ministry that's serving there called broken and beautiful.
00:44:14
Speaker
They're helping a lot with re-entry, so they're connecting with these women and working with them on the outside. And of course, I would not be doing my job if I didn't say, we can't do any of this without people moving God's pocketbooks. Move your heart, which then flows through your wallet, and supporting financial support is another thing. All of the ministries that are doing this are only doing it because God moves hearts.
00:44:38
Speaker
Is there a website we should direct people to? Yes. So we have, um, it's beauty for Ash's ministry. So it's bfa-ministry.org and that will connect you to all the, all the things that we do and ways to give. And I will have this posted at the show notes at normalgoesalongway.com and
00:44:58
Speaker
We'll make sure that people know how to get ahold of you, how to follow along. Yeah, and we'll send you to the prison. If you're on the Kansas City side, we have stuff that we do over there in the prisons locally there too.
00:45:10
Speaker
Oh, I'm glad I know your story now, Gina. I'm glad Jessica has you. It's been fun to see you guys come together. She was our youngest volunteer, 18 years old with such a mature spirit, such a love for the Lord. And that girl can preach. She's awesome. Yeah. And it was fun to watch her and Jane and their ministry develop out of, they would have this long drive and then God started putting dreams in their hearts of the things they were going to do. And it was fun to watch.
00:45:37
Speaker
So my heart is, I want everyone to figure out your dreams because the Lord gives you the desires of your heart. So this all started from him giving me a dream however many years ago. Took that many years to come to fruition. That goes for the people that we serve and the people that serve with us. We just want to see everyone walk out God's plans for their lives. Thanks for being on the side of the gospel and reforming and recreating people.
00:46:01
Speaker
I needed to hear that.
Podcast Conclusion and Call to Action
00:46:03
Speaker
Thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. You guys are pretty special people. You can tell. I don't know. I love your honesty too. You sound like you're new into this and you don't give yourself enough credit to know that you're growing and learning every day. And you're helping other people be honest in that too, which is great. Thank you. Thank you.
00:46:24
Speaker
All right, normalgoestalongway.com. You will get all the information. Let's help these women. Let's help others too. So thank you so much.