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Spider-Man Month: The Amazing Spider-Man Films
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In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew discuss the controversial middle entry that was The Amazing Spider-Man films. Were they really as bad as everyone said? Or is there something more to these two films? Let's not waste any more time and swing on in to find out!
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Transcript
Introduction: Spider-Man Month Begins
00:00:01
Speaker
Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If someone said it was a happy little tale... Uh, Satsu? Yeah? What are you doing? Nah, thanks. Anyway, welcome to Spider-Man month.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Spider-Man Month. My name's Atsunami and swinging in once again is none other than the one and only Amazing Andrew. Andrew, welcome back. Hi everyone, glad to be back and looking forward to talking about another episode in our Spider-Man Month. I was indeed going to invite Adam or Craig AC but I have been told by the Red Panda lawyer
00:00:51
Speaker
that they are contractually obligated to film their spin-off podcasts. So unfortunately, it's just going to be you and I tonight, Andrew. No Sinister Six then. No, it's more like Troublesome Two's, I think.
Superhero Film Evolution and Spider-Man Focus
00:01:06
Speaker
Devious doubles, if you will. But yeah, how are you doing tonight? I'm good, yeah. Christmas and New Year have come and gone here. Happy New Year to all our listeners. It'll be New Year from the previous episode, but not when we recorded it. But yeah, it's been lovely here. Great to be back in the Chatsunami Towers, the recording studio, to speak again on another podcast episode for the year. I know. Honest to goodness, I feel as if 2022 has just gone by in a flash.
00:01:33
Speaker
Christmas came in when New Year's came in gone, and now we're on our second episode of 2023, so absolutely crazy the speed that this podcast is going at. As we kind of alluded to, we of course are going to be talking about Spider-Man, but we are indeed going to be focusing on quite frankly one of the more infamous periods of Spider-Man, and of course I'm not talking about the 2007 Spider-Man.
00:02:01
Speaker
I'm talking about the 2012 and 2014's Amazing Spider-Man series. Contrary to popular belief, it might not be as amazing as some people make it out to be, especially that Mark Webb if he tries to tell you. You're all joking aside.
00:02:19
Speaker
Andrew, do you want to paint like a picture of this time period in Spider-Man history? Around this time, we have had sort of a renaissance of superhero movies. The MCU is in full swing. We have the Dark Knight trilogy is coming to its conclusion. We have
00:02:36
Speaker
the Avengers movie coming out the same year as the first Amazing Spider-Man movie. We've had the first Iron Man movie, the first Thor movie, the first Captain America movie. Superhero films are a very different place than they were at the time of the Sam Raimi Batman series. So we're in a very different place culturally in terms of superhero films. And so it provides a certain context to the films you are watching that you have much more to compare it to than you did during the Sam Raimi run.
00:03:05
Speaker
I mean, as we said last week, we were indeed talking about how when the Sam Raimi films came out, the genre, I suppose, as a whole forced of superhero films were very lackluster, I suppose is the right term.
Sony's Spider-Man Reboot Decision
00:03:20
Speaker
They weren't really revered as being these epic blockbusters. They were seen as being quite silly, quite juvenile. There was only a handful that really broke through the mould. But as you said, as soon as the MCU came into full swing, which
00:03:34
Speaker
We're going to probably talk about it later, but I would say the MCU probably had positives and maybe negative effects on this run as a whole and how the studios handled said films. But it is weird to think that it only took about five years from Spider-Man 3 to the Amazing Spider-Man 4 superhero films to change so drastically.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree with that. It was a huge, huge jump from Spider-Man 3 to where we are in the year 2012 with the amazing Spider-Man. There's so many incredible superhero films coming out around that time. I think the most notable would be the first Iron Man movie, which really kind of kicked off.
00:04:16
Speaker
the modern era of superhero movies. Also honorable mention to Batman Begins, the first Crispin Olin, Dark Knight Batman movie, which both of those movies I think were the benchmarks of what superhero movies were and could be and start this new wave of more high-profile superhero films.
00:04:37
Speaker
Don't get me wrong, all the actors who were in those MCU films, they were relatively established but I feel as if it just put them all into the spotlight. You know, you had Chris Evans, Robert Downey Jr and as we've established
00:04:53
Speaker
superhero films at the time were completely in a different place.
Casting Choices and Direction in The Amazing Spider-Man
00:04:58
Speaker
They were in such like a high standing with the public, but at the same time, and you'll of course know the reason behind this, but there was a particular reason why they decided to reboot the Spider-Man franchise, because it was about five years in between Spider-Man 3 and the Amazing Spider-Man
00:05:19
Speaker
So the Sam Raimi trilogy was relatively fresh in people's minds, but do you remember the reason why they decided to reboot it so fast?
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, so because of the Sony Marvel deal where Marvel had sold off its rights to Spider-Man, to Sony, Sony had an obligation as well as Fox with their respective Marvel properties. They had an obligation to make a movie every, I think it was every five years or it might be every like six years within a six year time period or else the rights would return back to Marvel who at that point were owned by Disney. So Disney would then own the rights to Spider-Man. So Sony to protect their
00:05:57
Speaker
ownership of what is their most valuable IP. They produced a brand new Spider-Man movie and rather than returning to a now aged and not particularly favorable Tobin Maguire Spider-Man after Spider-Man 3, they decided to take a fresh new perspective on it and go a different direction. So they approached Mark Webb to direct this new movie rather than Sam Raimi and cast Andrew Garfield in the titular role of Peter Parker in Spider-Man.
00:06:25
Speaker
It does seem weird to think though that they did have the relatively bare building blocks for a Spider-Man 4. They had the Vulture costume prototype, they had the... I don't know how far they had the full script or the basic outline for the film, but
00:06:45
Speaker
They definitely had something to go forward with, but obviously because of disputes and everything that completely fell through, we had a myriad of YouTube videos, which as I said last week, they were all, oh look, it's carnage, or oh look, it's shocker that's going to be in the next album. And of course that never materialised until they actually announced that, as you said, Andrew Garfield was going to be taking on the mask and the web shooters. Well, technically, Toby Maguire didn't have web shooters, but that's beside the
00:07:12
Speaker
Boy, I know, I call myself a Spider-Man fan, Andrew. I'm sorry for that. Yeah, but it was quite a strange time because obviously, as you said, Sony had to make this film to keep it, but nobody was really, and this isn't like a slight against anyone who worked for the film, not the actors, not the director, nobody, but nobody was really asking for this film. Where are they?
00:07:36
Speaker
No, I think we were we already pretty satisfied with the superhero films that had come out. We were happy with the Spider-Man films that we had. So there wasn't a great clamouring for a new Spider-Man film unless it was a Spider-Man film that was part of the Marvel universe because that was one of the great criticisms with
00:07:54
Speaker
Spider-Man at the time that he could not be a part of the rest of these Marvel characters like he is in the comic books because of the ownership of the fact that Sony owned Spider-Man and so Marvel couldn't play with one of its most favorite toys when it came to making the Disney Marvel movies which is of course why we will get to it next week but it was such a big deal when during the Tom Holland run we were able to branch them together and make a cohesive Spider-Man within the MCU.
Spider-Man in Media and Film Rights
00:08:22
Speaker
it's quite weird if you look at external Spider-Man media like for example the comics, the TV shows, you'll see a lot of crossovers, you'll see Spider-Man fighting with the X-Men, you'll be fighting with the Avengers, you'll be fighting with this whole colourful cast of characters but obviously due to ownership rights and everything the same could be applied to
00:08:45
Speaker
the films. And it does seem like that definitely limited it, because at the time the MCU was a relatively new concept. Like don't get me wrong, crossover films were a thing. SG Yeah, Freddie meets Jason. King Kong versus Godzilla, you know, those kind of films. SG Alien vs Predator. SG Alien vs Predator said that was the next one.
00:09:07
Speaker
But that's exactly the case. It's not a new idea to say, oh, we're going to cross these characters over. But at the same time, when it came to Spider-Man, it was like, well, where is the X-Men? Where's the Avengers? Where's all these different superheroes that they could feasibly use? And obviously, because of, as we said, the rights to these characters, they couldn't use them. So there was definitely a kind of appetite for an expanded universe, much like the
00:09:37
Speaker
Marvel Cinematic Universe, but we well indeed get into why that really failed here. But see without any further ado, will we just... I don't even have a funny segue. I don't know, does this deserve a funny segue? Do you
Podcast Segue and Ad Break Humor
00:09:52
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, maybe you're more critical of these films than I am. I don't think these films deserve as much ire as they get, but we'll get into that soon after the air break. But do you believe that if you could do a good segue for the podcast, you'd need to have a moral obligation to do those kinds of things? That is indeed what is at stake here, which is a very long-winded way to say, we will be right back after these messages.
00:10:03
Speaker
think?
00:10:19
Speaker
It was great ads come great podcasting. That was actually a good segment. Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:10:42
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:11:07
Speaker
Movies! And Feelings! Pop Pop! Bring Your Own Popcorn is a podcast that dives into people and the movies who love them. Let us preach to your choir or stoke your ire as we spiral down memory lane with cult classics, jurastics, and other genres that rhyme with traffic. What we lack in education we make up for with comedy, compassion, and camaraderie. I'm your host, Mixed State Majesty, inviting you to join me and an assortment of wonderful guests on fine podcast apps everywhere.
Remote Podcasting Challenges and Zencastr Sponsorship
00:11:39
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zincaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zincaster comes in. Before I met Zincaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low-quality, one-track audio waves.
00:12:15
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:12:26
Speaker
So the way we're going to structure this episode is very similar to the way we constructed the last
Andrew Garfield’s Spider-Man Portrayal
00:12:33
Speaker
episode. We're just going to be talking casually about The Amazing Spider-Man 1 and indeed 2. I feel as if we kind of did a disservice to Raimi's films by leaving Spider-Man to the last.
00:12:47
Speaker
the last time, because we felt as if, although he was obviously entertaining, he did a serviceable job, Spider-Man ironically himself wasn't probably the strongest part of that trilogy, except for maybe two, but we have a whole episode of that. But while we talk about our main lead, Andrew Garfield,
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. My thoughts on Andrew Garfield as Spider-Man and as Peter Parker is that I've warmed to his Spider-Man since I've watched his two films last year and again within this last week for the recording of this episode.
00:13:23
Speaker
I do think that he is better than I remembered him being, and I particularly think that he is one of, if not the strongest, Spider-Man. As the character, when he puts on the mask, when he acts as Spider-Man with his quips, his quips are very well written, very well delivered, I think he works very well as Spider-Man. I think he fills that role as the comics would have him filled. I think he does the best job. As Peter Parker, he is less believable
00:13:50
Speaker
And it isn't like my initial kind of interpretation of it was, oh, he's this handsome skater boy. Like that's not the Peter Parker that I see. I see Peter Parker as an awkward teen who like gets bullied and like maybe looks kind of like a bit more handsome, but more built out once he's had the spider bite. But from the outset, he's already a handsome Andrew Garfield.
00:14:09
Speaker
However, Andrew Garfield chooses to counter this by acting very awkwardly and like hunching over and like having very strange mannerisms and this put on New Yorker accent because the actor himself is British. I don't enjoy his Peter Parker very much. I don't think it's interesting to watch. I find him a bit irritating, but that's just me. What are your thoughts on his portrayal of Peter Parker?
00:14:35
Speaker
I would agree with that. I think that definitely it was Spider-Man. I remember rewatching these films and I remember when I watched them at the time. I thought, oh, I hate this because I was still enamoured with the Rheumatology because it was really just a bias that I had because I grew up
00:14:52
Speaker
these films. I love them. I love the campiness and everything. So when The Amazing Spider-Man came out, it almost actually, this looks like a very weird comparison, but it kind of reminds me of the shift between, for example, in James Bond, Pierce Brosnan's run as James Bond versus Daniel
00:15:11
Speaker
Crakes. The reason I'm bringing that up is because for any Bond fans, you'll know what I'm talking about here, but Piers Grossman, when he played James Bond, he was very goofy, campy over the top. There was always a relatively satisfying conclusion to his stories, whereas when it got to Daniel Craig, he was a lot more brooding, serious.
00:15:32
Speaker
And that's kind of what I think happened with these films, and I feel as if that kind of ties into Andrew Garfield as a whole, because first of all, rewatching these films, I think out of the three of them completely agree, he is by far the best actor, he is such a talented actor.
00:15:48
Speaker
Spider-Man is very quippy, he's very oh look I'm your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. I love the fact and this is something I have to admit that the MCU expanded on that they got him to do things for the community like there's a scene in I think the Amazing Spider-Man 2 where he actually helps out a child getting bullied and things like that and you know he walks him home and everything I love small scenes like that.
00:16:14
Speaker
where he's helping the community in the first film where he saves the wee boy and he puts the mask on him to be brave and everything. I love the way they characterise Spider-Man and that. But when you get to Peter Parker, it feels as if the whole tone of the film doesn't fit the kind of cheery optimism of Spider-Man.
00:16:36
Speaker
if that makes sense. On the one hand, you've got this very powerful character who's like, oh, look at me with great power comes great responsibility. Well, actually they don't say that, but we'll get on to that later. You know, you've got the colorful Spider-Man, and then in the background you've got corporate
00:16:53
Speaker
Espionage. You've got spies. You've got, of course, the spin-offs that they were planning on The Amazing Spider-Man 2. So it feels as if they all kind of conflict with the fact that you're watching a film about a colourful character called Spider-Man.
00:17:09
Speaker
I have to say Spider-Man's a bit of a dick, like in the first film.
Morality in The Amazing Spider-Man
00:17:13
Speaker
You know, see the scene where he's hunting down his uncle's killer. Which, by the way, does he ever find his uncle's killer? I don't think he does. This is something that another reviewer brought up and I was like, holy shit, they're right! Where he goes to hunt for his uncle's killer, doesn't find him, and then one of the thugs is like, oh, we're gonna find you and your family, we're gonna kill you.
00:17:35
Speaker
And only then is that the moment when he looks up at this poster and he's like, huh, to get away with my crimes, I should wear a mask. And it's like, Jesus Christ Peter, that is just brutal. He might as well have just worn a balaclava and been called Spider Thug.
00:17:52
Speaker
that point because it is like he webs up a guy, nearly chokes him, and then he does threaten him. He pulls down his sleeve and he sees he's not got the tattoo or the guy who murdered his uncle. Again, not important at all because after that scene
00:18:08
Speaker
came to just gives up.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, and so I think that that is the point where he has a resolution to use his powers for good and to hide his identity because he's told that, as you say, that showing his face will just lead to people figuring out who he is. I do love the scene where I practically see that transition where he saves the wee boy on the bridge from the fallen card and everything.
00:18:48
Speaker
And it's like a really sweet moment because it is, it's not just, oh look, Spider-Man swooping in like in the Raimi films. It's like he actually has to talk to the child, coax him out, be like, you know, don't be afraid. I'm a Spider-Man, which again, if I was a child, I would be terrified regardless. And they take off the mask and it's like, oh my God, it's Andrew Garfield.
00:19:07
Speaker
huge fan. I particularly like the montage we see of him creating the suit and creating the web slingers and follows those two nerds around who are talking about the best pendulum swing action that Spider-Man could use, and he's making notes behind. That's all very fun. I made a note that he's this top-level scientist and also a fantastic seamstress, and just what a dangerous combo that is. Because in the Raimi film, he really just draws it, doesn't he? And then in the next scene, it's like,
00:19:35
Speaker
Oh yeah, I've got it. I've got this really well-made Taylor suit. Yeah, that's insane that Peter in that universe just does that. What I will say is I do think that the Remi suit, out of the three film series that we're going to talk about, I think the Remi suit still is probably the best looking, but in terms of a universe explanation for how they made it, it's probably the most BS.
00:19:59
Speaker
At least it made sense when, as you said, he's trying to think of, like, oh, it has to be a spandex suit because it's least wind resistant. He has to have, like, the goggles as well with the spider eyes, but he has to have them because obviously he doesn't want wind in his eyes. So that is cool. Here's a question for you, though. Like, going back to his characterisation, do you think he can be quite horrible in some scenes that kind of offsets his goodwill or rather the goodwill that he's set up in previous scenes?
Peter Parker's Character Consistency
00:20:29
Speaker
and the foams. I can't think of any necessary examples of him being particularly horrible. There's points where he becomes quite like moody. And I think there's usually justification, not that anyone should be justified in treating someone poorly, but you can understand where he's coming from in certain situations and why he's in the dark place that he's at. But there is one scene actually I noted in the second one where he crosses the road to go meet with Gwen Stacy and is caused as a car accident.
00:20:58
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So he's like, Oh, go and hi Gwen and walks across the street. He like stops a car initially, like, okay, that was a bit rude. And then he crosses another one and a car just crashes into another car because he like avoid hitting him. And then he just like continues by his day, you would need to hang around and file a police report. You've just caused this accident.
00:21:13
Speaker
There's a lot of really weird and consistent moments in Amazing Spider-Man 2, and there's two particular scenes I want to draw attention to. First of all, the one you were referring to there when he walks across the street, there's like an even worse one where he's riffing with. Is it Paul Giamatti? Paul Giamatti, yeah.
00:21:32
Speaker
Oh, absolute wasted role for him. Absolutely. He's so like hammy and over the top. That's what I love about him because out of all the villains, he does stand out. But the issue is, yeah, as you said, he's very underutilized. I don't know how familiar with Rhino in the comics. Rhino is a big dumb idiot. Yeah.
00:21:49
Speaker
And so the kind of clumsy quips that Rhino has, that Paul Giamatti's Rhino has in this fits that. But Paul Giamatti is such a good actor that I'm like, oh, why couldn't you have picked someone else for this role and use Paul Giamatti for something else? Like, I really hope that Paul Giamatti gets used in like the MCU or something else. Cause he is so, so fun to watch. He's such a fun actor. No, he absolutely was. Like no pun intended, but he was criminally underutilized in this film.
00:22:18
Speaker
the amount of people that Peter could have saved. See in the very beginning where Hojo Man is driving down the street and he's crashing into all these cars and all these vehicles are flying in there. And Spider-Man's just riffing on them. He's like, hello, I'm your friend with neighborhood Spider-Man. You see if it was a one-on-one fight and there was no civilians around, you'd think, okay, that's pretty funny. But you're looking around and you're like, Jesus, Spider-Man, I'm pretty sure someone's mum just got crushed under that van. They go,
00:22:47
Speaker
thrown in there, what are you doing? We'll talk about that later probably, but like the whole tone of that film's all over the place. But another scene, and again there is a semi-justification for this, it's what I like to refer to as the Green Goblin make a wish foundation scene where Peter goes to visit Harry and without any kind of reason he says that he won't give him his blood because his friend Harry's dying, who
00:23:15
Speaker
Of course, he becomes a green goblin later on. And for some weird reason, he thinks that Spider-Man's blood will heal him, even though later on he gets a suit that heals him, which I kind of think, well, that was a waste of time. But he doesn't give him the blood, and I kind of get why he's saying that. I thought he used the spider venom. Oh, he does later, but it's like the spider venom in the basement. It's not his blood itself. Yeah, I know, but it wasn't the suit that healed him.
00:23:41
Speaker
No, but there's a weird cut-away where he uses a spider venom and he does that very overdramatic. He's turned, he's chirped for some reason, but then he climbs into the suit and you see a status screen or something that says body-damaged activating healing protocol or something. It happens
00:24:01
Speaker
like, why didn't you just start off with that and see how you got on? And I know why, because obviously they wanted to bring Goblin to come into effect and everything, but in Universe-wise you're like, huh, he probably could have started with that then went to the Spider Venom, but you know, obviously that's a hindsight thing. But I'm quite curious, what did you think about that scene? The scene where he begs his friend to give him his blood and he's like, yeah, I don't think so.
00:24:24
Speaker
I can understand it because he understands that his blood might not be effective and might end up killing his friend and so doesn't want to give him something that might make the situation worse when they're still trying to figure out alternatives.
00:24:40
Speaker
And I guess also he's concerned about his identity being figured out by using his blood maybe. So I could understand. I don't think, and this is kind of always the case with these kind of movies, that it was conveyed between characters very well. Like the conversation should have been more clear as to why. And like, instead of him just being like, oh, I can't tell more and just jumps out the window. At which point Harry yells, you're a flawed Spider-Man.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah, that was hilarious. There he is, just like, you're abroad and he's smashing everything. And he's just outside his window, it's like, Jesus, go away! If I'd had done enough damage, it's like, could you save my life? No, but look at this sick trick I can do. What about, say, to kind of summarise my thoughts here, I do think that Andrew Garfield
00:25:28
Speaker
probably was overheated at the time, but I can kind of understand why. Obviously again, it's not justifiable to throw hatred and victory over an actor just because you don't like the portrayal, but at the same time the reason for that was
00:25:44
Speaker
probably because it was so early from the Sam Raimi films and I don't think people were quite ready to let go of that. And then, as we said, there were so many MCU films and DC films that were coming out. They were doing such a better job of conveying those storylines compared to what the amazing Spider-Man films
00:26:04
Speaker
Holmes necessarily did, but kind of moving on from that, will we talk about the, because we mentioned Harry there, will we talk about Peter's inner circle? Because we did, surprisingly enough, we did talk a lot about his aunt and uncle in the past film. Would you say there is prolific in this film? I like Martin Sheen as
Uncle Ben and Aunt May Portrayals
00:26:24
Speaker
an actor.
00:26:24
Speaker
And I think he does the role of Uncle Ben well, but I do not think he's as good as Cliff Robertson. And that might just be nostalgia glasses or what was my Uncle Ben. My Uncle Ben being the Sam Raimi's Uncle Ben, played by Cliff Robertson. I don't buy Martin Sheen's portrayal as well. I don't find him as homely. He seems very aggressive, doesn't he? Like throughout the entire film. And this is something I kind of joked about before we went on.
00:26:52
Speaker
the ad break there but in the Sam Raimi films we talked about how Uncle Ben was very welcoming and he tried to be the best kind of fatherly figure to Peter and everything and this is just quite shouty and don't get me wrong I get why because there's like really bad things that Peter does like forgets to pick up his aunt and things and he's just like quite angry but then we get to one particular
00:27:17
Speaker
scene where he does the whole great power comes great responsibility speech, and I absolutely loathe this scene for a number of reasons, but I'll just read it out quickly. Instead of saying with great power comes great responsibility, he talks about how his father is like Peter, hashtag you got your mother's eyes, all that.
00:27:37
Speaker
And then he says, he believed that if you could do good things for other people, you had a moral obligation to do those things. That was the stake here. No choice. Responsibility. Here's the question. Would you buy a t-shirt or a backpack or a sticker on that phrase? No, I can't say I would.
00:27:56
Speaker
It's so ingrained in me the with great power comes great responsibility phrase. Was that unique to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man film or was that something from the comics of the cartoon or anything like that? Has that always been something with Spider-Man or was that from those movies? Yep, very first comic, would you believe?
00:28:14
Speaker
Introduced by Stanley, it originally appeared as a closing narration in the 1962 Amazing Fantasy 15. It was later attributed to Uncle Ben, as advice to the young Peter Parker. It's always been a staple of the Spider-Man franchise. It's not like you could say, oh with great power comes great responsibility as a Sam Raimi thing. So why did they cut that out? I have no idea.
00:28:38
Speaker
Maybe they thought it was too close to the bone, but I think the guy shoots webs for God's sake. It's the same with the Sam Raimi trilogy, so why they took that out, I've got no idea. But funny enough, you mentioned that Paul Giamatti is criminally underused in these films, because I feel as if Sally Fields is also underutilised. Would you agree with that?
00:28:59
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think Aunt May necessarily needs a lot there but I think that she does the role very well and I think she is better than Rosemary Harris and is also much more believable as an aunt instead of like a grandma. I have to admit it's not something you really thought of when you were watching the films but the more you grew up and look back at it you're like, yeah why is she a grandmother?
00:29:21
Speaker
Oh, no, no, no. It just makes no sense. But sorry. Cliff Robinson and Rosemary Harris actors are like 20 to 30 years older than what they should have been from what logically makes sense as an aunt and uncle. Like if they were like a great aunt and uncle, it would make more sense. But no, it doesn't really make sense for their age ranges. But yeah, no, Sally Fields, I think does very well in the role. I think she's very believable. She has such an impressive acting range and emotional range that she's able to portray.
00:29:49
Speaker
I think she does play the role of what is essentially just like a concerned aunt at all times. Because as you say, there's not too much that they do with her Aunt May character other than her just being concerned about Peter coming back with like a black eye and coming back super late at night and having a very creepy wall covered in thread and pictures and stuff trying to solve what happened to his father and mother. There's always so much concern over the father. The mother is like never brought up. It's always about Richard Parker.
00:30:17
Speaker
That is actually so true. Oh my god. I don't even know what the mother's name was. Definitely. Oh, look at that. Spiderman's mum. Spiderman's maw. Right, okay. Mary Parker. I was right. But how would you know that of? It's not like Martha Wayne or something like that.
00:30:37
Speaker
just the reason i remember richard parker is because they cast the same guy from life of pie to be that scientist ceo guy who is also in life of pie and the tiger in life of pie is called richard parker so he is yeah and so every time i just got richard parker
00:31:01
Speaker
That is so true. You're completely right though, because there's even a scene where Aunt May just breaks down and she's like, why are you so concerned about your father? And he's like, oh, I could have, I could have found my father. It's like, but why? This deadbeat like just ran away. You know, obviously it's not a deadbeat, but. The father's plan, the parents' plan was they didn't want Peter to always be looking over his shoulder, growing up always looking over his shoulder and that they're in danger.
00:31:27
Speaker
If that was so much a concern, why didn't Richard just leave and Mary stay with Peter? Why did they both need to go? If the concern is, oh well, Mary would be in danger if she stayed, then why wouldn't Peter be in danger? I'm going to be honest, I don't think they wanted their child. They just got an out and they were like, bye, enjoy your time with your aunt and uncle. That's the way it kind of feels, isn't it?
00:31:49
Speaker
I will give the credit of the fact that we actually address the parents in this one and we get a little bit of backstory, which we do not get in any other live action movie. We don't get any semblance of a backstory to Peter's parents and any of the others. And like both the first Amazing Spider-Man and the second Amazing Spider-Man start with
00:32:07
Speaker
clips showing a little bit more of the backstory. In the second one, we have them fleeing on a plane and then fighting this like agent and he's like trying to like upload some files at the same time like why he's fighting. I love so much that it was so the film takes place in like 2014 or so.
00:32:26
Speaker
We'll say 2014 it takes place in, because that's when the film came out. They leave Peter Parker when he is, let's say, six, so about 10 years prior. So we're looking at probably about 2004 when this event takes place. What airplane has an ethernet connection to begin with that he can plug into that is so good that even when the plane is plummeting,
00:32:50
Speaker
following a exploded engine, that he is able to upload these files this quickly. You can download a picture within like 10 minutes in 2004 from your home. The internet in this 2004 airplane that's crashing has better ethernet connection than most houses in Scotland do now. You know, I don't even think I got my own, well not my own, but like the family computer until like 2005. I didn't get my own private jet internet until last year.
00:33:19
Speaker
You know, that was like a very missed opportunity for one of these internet companies to be like, you know, those files Richard Parker uploaded before he died. That was our internet connection.
00:33:31
Speaker
like Skye Broadband coming up and being like, oh yeah. And AT&T. Verizon. Even when crashing a plane. Your plane might crash but your internet won't. Just a tagline. Do you want to know a fun alternate scene for the ending of this film? What's that? Richard Parker survived.
00:33:52
Speaker
and he actually turns up at the grave of Spoilers for later on in the discussion but the grave of Gwen Stacy and he talks to Peter and they have this huge low out and everything and then they start talking and yeah he survived. Technically he's still alive. Made his long dead apparently because as you said the film doesn't give two hoots about art but Richard Parker survived so yeah. Did you see that scene by any chance?
00:34:18
Speaker
No, I've not seen any deleted scenes or anything like that. Yeah, I mean, there are comic book adaptations which do have his parents being alive and returning. And I think there was one where like Aunt May gives him the right telling off for how neglectful they've been.
00:34:34
Speaker
Richard Parker with her nursing training that went absolutely nowhere. I know we kind of just complained there about her not having much to do but I feel as if in the second film they just said a scroot just put it in a hospital and just have her look after people and it's like, why? This is the thing that confused me because don't get me wrong, I don't want to undersell nurses or anything but it's like she keeps saying things like, oh I'm taking night classes to be a nurse and everything. Isn't that
00:35:01
Speaker
easy to become a nurse over there, that you just take one or two night classes and then all of a sudden you're telling people what to do and their own words. There are courses where you can try to become a nurse, so I think that's feasible and it might be that she was previously and so she just needed a bit more because I think the idea is that they don't have bent income or pension or whatever anymore.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yeah, so they need to have like a secondary source. Yeah, because she does have not a meltdown. She has an argument about that. She says that, oh, your Uncle Ben's not here and I need money to send you to college. So yeah, that's why she takes the job. But it just feels random that that's what they chose. And again, like nothing against nurses or anything, but it just seems
00:35:43
Speaker
she might have had previous experience as it and she seems very kind of caring individual. I guess it's supposed to kind of point to her as a character as being quite caring and so they made her a nurse. I was going to say it could have been worse. She could have been one of the pilots on those planes.
00:35:57
Speaker
pull up pull up damn it yeah that was a very interesting scene like we we can't wait to this like plain watch tower of them all like celebrating the guys like we have a job to do get back to work and it's like why have we cut to this who are you i feel as if that is before we go on to talk about the other characters i feel as if that is my main problem with
00:36:15
Speaker
the sequel compared to the first one. I feel as if the first film flows a lot better. You know, those from Peter slowly becoming Spider-Man and then he has to fight his… I was going to say mentor, but it's not really, it's just some dude that worked with his dad. And then all of a sudden he's like, oh right, you're related to some guy you used to work with. So Spider-Man has always got some connection to his villain. It's so interesting that there's always some level of connection with whoever he's up against.
00:36:43
Speaker
But see, to be fair, they are getting weaker compared to the Raimi trilogy. It looks as if he does have a connection. And don't get me wrong, I feel as if with him and the lizard, it's quite good. But then it's like by the second film, it's like some random guy he saved on the street suddenly becoming a supervillain. You're like, huh, okay, this is quite strange. But sorry, going back to my point there. I feel as if the second film is just
00:37:08
Speaker
50 films just mashed into one because and this is what I was saying at the very beginning about the kind of detriment of the MCU because I feel as if the MCU, as amazing as it is, every single studio at the time knew how lucrative it was.
Failed Cinematic Universes and Expansion Plans
00:37:24
Speaker
So you had the
00:37:25
Speaker
remember what you call it? Was it the Monster Cinematic Universe? Oh, the Dark Cinematic Universe. That was the one, yeah, where they had the Mummy and no films after that because it didn't do well. He had the DCU, which kind of took off.
00:37:41
Speaker
If I don't even know if the DCU would have been the fun back then, would it? Probably in the planning. Not yet, because they just concluded with The Dark Knight Rises, Man of Steel had come out around that time. So that was the first of that kind of group of films. But yeah, there was no Aquaman or Batman vs Superman or Wonder Woman or anything like that yet.
00:38:01
Speaker
when it came to the second film, they definitely wanted to do their own cinematic universe. They wanted to do their Sinister Six film, their Amazing Spider-Man 3 and 4. They wanted a Black Cat spin-off. There was just so many. It was a film. Do you know what actually reminds me of going back to the MCU? It reminds me of Age of Ultron. You know that way when it was a load of things just mashed together
00:38:29
Speaker
and then they were like, we're going to set up these pieces and then we're going to branch off from that. I mean, would you say that's the case for this film? I don't know. There's certainly aspects to it trying to set up other films. It wasn't super in your face until right at the end. Oh yeah, with the sinister sixth wardrobe gallery. Yeah. Choose your character.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I do think that they were definitely hoping that this could evolve into more movies. And I think that was the plan up until they made the deal with Disney to do the Tom Holland Spider-Man and have that incorporated was so much for success that they were like, Oh,
00:39:06
Speaker
We don't really want to return to this universe of Spider-Man because it wasn't as well received. So we want to just try and focus on this new one. And I think when they planned to do the Venom movie, the idea was that it would be connected to the Andrew Garfield universe. But I think they've retconned that to now be within the Tom Holland universe. Morbius, I don't know.
00:39:29
Speaker
I have zero idea where Morbius fits in. I did not watch that movie. No, me neither. So I don't know where Morbius fits in, the grand Spider-Man universe scheme of things, but I can't see Jared Leto appearing in any MCU film anytime soon, that's for sure. Well, you never know. It was such a global box office success. I mean,
00:39:49
Speaker
Can you imagine if they just slipped in more base at the end of The Amazing Spider-Man 2? It's morbid time. Do you know what would be so funny? See if it's like at the end, you know how it's so stupid. The guy in shadows walks back, I can't even remember. They tell you his name. There's like feets or fives. Fives? I missed a fife or fifur. Whatever his name is, it's like he's walking by the cabinets. And it's so dumb.
00:40:13
Speaker
why would you make an armoured suit and then purposely shape it like a rhino? The whole idea is, oh, it's supposed to be his somewhat identity, you know, that rhino, I mean, don't get me wrong, it was a guy in a skintight suit with a horn on his head and he was just
00:40:29
Speaker
Brutus really strong but it kind of makes no sense why it's like, oh yeah, let's make metal wings, let's make octopus arms, let's make a giant rhino here. I'm sure nobody's going to ask questions here and you're like, there is a lot of non-auditing going on in this place but can you imagine at the very end of that it's just like a pair of vampire teeth just sitting on the podium. Just a bat just flying around all over the room. Yeah, it's like remember at the end of the first Iron Man film where the
00:40:56
Speaker
I can't remember the actor who played War Machine, but it's really strange he turns round and he says, I'll be back for you later or something like that. It's just like someone coming in looking at the T3 like, I'll be back for you later. OK, I've got a controversial take for these films and before I dive into it, what are your opinions on the relationship between Peter and
00:41:19
Speaker
Gwen Stacy and the song because that is a moment and a particular dynamic that is very well received. But what do you
Peter and Gwen's Relationship Dynamics
00:41:28
Speaker
think? I like it. I think that it is a better chemistry and romance than Peter and MJ from the Raimi films. I think it works a lot better. I think they're very cute in a lot of their interactions with each other.
00:41:41
Speaker
The initial scene where he tries to ask her out and is all kind of nervous about it. And you can see that she's also kind of a bit kind of nervous and cutesy about it. That is very sweet. And you, cause you don't really get that with Peter and MJ, where it's more like Peter's like his underdog guy going for like the hot girl. And so she's like throwing him a bone almost where, and he's like, yeah, woohoo kind of thing. Whereas Peter and Gwen here are both in each other's league. They work very well together. I don't want to say each other's league. That sounds, that sounds bad.
00:42:12
Speaker
They're both a 10, okay. Peter, Peter. No Toby McGuire.
00:42:22
Speaker
Peter and Gwen are both awkward nerds. They are very similar. I think they work a lot better than this kind of like nerd fantasy of a nerd getting with the hot girl who's so much hotter than he is and one of the popular girls and that kind of thing. Like Gwen doesn't come across as like one of the popular girls. I think it's a lot more interesting. I think it works.
00:42:41
Speaker
better. And of course, spoilers for the second film. We've gone on a hero with it. We're worrying about spoilers so far. The death of Gwen Stacy is a very sad moment. And it's been one of the comic books like saddest moments. I think the death of Gwen Stacy is cemented as being one of the most emotional scenes in comic book history. And the manner of her death as well is really graphic. Before I go on to talk about what I think of Gwen Stacy, I feel as if that particular scene doesn't seem very warranted.
00:43:10
Speaker
If you think about the traditional to the act structure or rather the refilm structure, usually the second film, if you think back to the old Star Wars films, the second film The Empire Strikes Back is where the heroes are at the lowest point but they're still kind of hopeful at the end of it. Here they just absolutely destroy
00:43:30
Speaker
Peter Parker and they're just like, oh yeah, by the way, see the last 20 minutes, we're going to snap your girlfriend's neck. Jesus Christ, Mark Lee, what the hell? Well, I know it's not his choice, I think it was probably an executive decision because I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, but was that scene not in like all the promotional material, her falling and the clock tower and everything at the same? I think you're right. I think that was a lot of the promotional material of her falling, but obviously they didn't show the death, but I mean, it was pretty implied.
00:43:57
Speaker
Yeah, because it is, you're right. It's a very iconic scene in the comics, and it is a scene that they did portray in the Sam Raimi film. Which, yeah, it's not the same. They imply the same things that, oh, he has to save the woman that he loves.
00:44:15
Speaker
obviously saves them because killing her off in the first one would be a bit of a downer, I'm not gonna lie, but for the second one I don't know what they were thinking. Unless Emma Stone, who does a fantastic job in this, but unless her contract was maybe running out I don't know, or she just wasn't signed on for any more films, maybe that's why.
00:44:35
Speaker
I don't feel as if they had built up enough momentum or you don't like the ability of this particular iteration to then say, oh, by the way, we're calling it off. Because I do agree. I think that the relationship does work. But what I will say is, I kind of prefer the relationship in the first film compared to the second one. If it was in the first film, there is that back and forth and everything. And
00:45:00
Speaker
It's very cutesy, it's very over-the-top, but I do like it. I think it's very sweet and Gwen Stacy as a character is very capable. This is something I brought up last week where you would usually get Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane's screaming into the camera. Again, not our fault, but… Sam Raimi loves a screaming woman directly into the camera. Oh, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Every fucking transition was a screaming woman directly into the camera.
00:45:29
Speaker
The one scene actually, sorry I don't go back to the movie films, but one scene I absolutely hate, and the second one is see when Dr. Octopus is climbing up the, I don't even know what building, it's like a building full of offices. Yeah, and the woman runs away from the window.
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah, she like runs back and forth and then she runs right to the camera and screams and I'm like, why? There's no reason for it. Like she could scream and run off screen, but she just screams into the camera and you're like, really, really, really? Who would do that? Who just stands in her room and screams like that? You would run screaming. Yeah, it's silly. But anyway, I feel as if Gwen Stacy is a very independent and very capable character. You know, she's no one to shy away from danger. To a detriment at the end.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah but that's the thing that I don't agree with because there's a scene where Peter is haunted by her dad for the first quarter of this film and it's the most stupid thing ever when he keeps looking over and sees the ghost face of her dad.
00:46:30
Speaker
standing there, because then the first of them, spoilers again, the first of them, he gets killed off. So he's like, don't take my daughter because you'll only bring her pain. And you know, he just sees them just standing there silently. What is this
00:46:44
Speaker
rubbish, but anyway. So there's a moment where he webs her up to a car to stop her from coming to the Electro plant. No pun intended there to call it the Electro plant, but it's basically where he has the big fight scene with Electro and don't worry, we'll get on to Electro, but she absolutely runs him over with a car which is hilarious. And then she makes this huge speech about him saying
00:47:07
Speaker
Oh, what are you in the Underthaw? Oh, you're going off to war and I can't fight my battles. Like, it did get me wrong completely agree with that sentiment, but it's kind of contradicted when she does get killed in the end, and you're like, well that was pointless speech.
00:47:22
Speaker
Did you go absolutely brutally murdered?
00:47:39
Speaker
least give a movie's distance between the dad dying and his dying wish being like, keep her safe, don't hang out with her, and then the next movie, just not immediately, but by the end of the movie killing her. You need that one movie gap at least, I think, for it to not feel clumsy. And I think that's what it ultimately ended up being. I think it ended up being quite a clumsy decision to kill her at that point. I think it ruins what they'd built up
00:48:03
Speaker
Now, I totally agree with you there. I do think that they should have spaced it out a wee bit more. But the other criticism I will say that's more prevalent for The Amazing Spider-Man 2 than the first film is obviously they're trying to, you know, get together and everything, but they waste so much time with them saying, oh, well, they get together, won't they? Because it's like he practically kisses her right in front of the whole school and everything and, you know, oh, they're dating, well, it's fine. But then he
00:48:33
Speaker
like an argument outside a dim sumplace and he's like, oh I can't be with you anymore. And then there's another scene where it's like, oh I can't be with you, oh I can't be with you. And it feels like a completely different movie at that point. And that obviously is like my biggest gripe with the film, but especially for that, it just feels as if we interrupt this superhero film for, I don't know, Hallmark slash Channel 5 film. You have to stick to one thing or the other. Say what you will about the Sam Raimi or Tom Holland films, but at least they're both
00:49:02
Speaker
consistent with the way they portray everything and the way the pacing set up. With this one it does feel as if it's all over the place, and speaking of all over the place, will we move on to quite possibly one of the more, I don't even know if infamous is the right word, but the villains of this piece.
00:49:19
Speaker
Yeah, we have three major villains across these two films. We have Dr. Connors as the lizard in the first Amazing Spider-Man, and then we have both Electro and Harry Osborn Green Goblin in the second one.
Villain Portrayals: Lizard and Electro
00:49:33
Speaker
I don't mind the lizard in the first Amazing Spider-Man. I think it's an interesting enough villain. I think that the actor Rice Ifens, I think that he's a pretty decent actor portraying the role of Dr. Connors. I think that it's very kind of interesting
00:49:49
Speaker
interesting. I don't enjoy his line when we kind of initially meet him where we see that he has only one arm and he goes, I'm not a cripple. I'm a scientist. And I was like, I don't think you can say that. I think that's on PC. So what's that got to do with anything? Yeah, you can be both. I mean, cripple is not a particularly great term anyway. I mean,
00:50:07
Speaker
the character has one arm, I guess he can use whatever language he wishes for himself. But like, you don't need to define yourself by either thing. You can be someone who is differently abled and also a scientist. That's not like an uncommon thing. People who have like one eye or Stephen Hawking. Yeah, or Stephen Hawking, a thing like that. Like we see them as having both this illness and that they're a great scientist.
00:50:29
Speaker
You're completely right. It just seems like a weird line to throw in there to be like, oh, I'm a capable scientist. All of the students looking around are interns going, nobody said that. What's wrong with you?
00:50:41
Speaker
No, well, the only thing I will say about The Lizard as a whole is I'm not a big fan of the CGI enough to say it. I think it looks like a goomba from the Super Mario Brothers song. Yeah, I can understand that perspective. I think the CGI wasn't quite there yet in terms of making a convincing design. I mean, obviously the design itself didn't help, but I think that the CG just wasn't quite there.
00:51:05
Speaker
yet. I wish I could say it got better when they returned the new way home but they had them for like half the film, probably because they didn't want to animate them. I don't remember how different he was actually. I'd have to, I'll be watching that film probably this week. I'll have to see if it's very much different but
00:51:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was an interesting take on the character. One thing I particularly liked, and this is more Spider-Man than the villain itself, but just in the first film when Peter is trying to identify where he is and trying to create a warning signal, he fires webs in multiple directions to use a vibration technique on the webs. And it's the most Spider-like thing that I think any Spider-Man has done that I've seen in the Spider-Man movies. And I was like, that is such a neat little trick. I really like that. So I thought that was really cool. I like that a lot.
00:51:52
Speaker
not enjoy Peter attempting to take a picture of the lizard and leaving his fucking name on the back of his camera. To be fair though, it was still in school. You can kind of understand that as stupid as it is. You can kind of understand why you would make such a rookie mistake, but
00:52:08
Speaker
The one thing I don't like, and this is going to sound like a really minor thing, and you might think, oh is it when he tries to turn the whole city into lizards? Like no, I don't like that idea but at the same time I can see why the character does it, you know, it's because he wants them to be like superhuman or super lizard as it were. But it's the way he says poor Peter Parker and I'm not going to try to replicate it. It sounds like Davey Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean.
00:52:33
Speaker
doesn't it? It's like, I don't want to be popping into your ear to say it but it's just such a weird way to say it. Picked a pickle, pickle, pickle. And then he's just locked up and never really brought up again. Yeah, I would say out of the three villains he is probably the strongest. Electro, I don't know how to feel about Electro. I have to say,
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'm very mixed on him as well. I feel as if there was scope to make him tragic, and I feel as if they learn nothing from Spider-Man 3. Again, there's this whole argument I'm making that say what you will about Spider-Man 3, but at least the tone was consistent with it. But the fact they had two separate villains, Electro being one of them, and this weird German doctor, I text you Andrew, when I was watching this film, if
00:53:24
Speaker
think the actual character is a comic character, supposedly. I don't know if it's supposed to be a woman in the comics or whatnot. I don't know enough about the character to have a definitive thing to say, oh, it's a bad representation. But the fact they go for the German mad scientist route of, we have layers of making your talk, and you're like, this is 2014.
00:53:49
Speaker
might have just added. It's not like the Raimi era. I think the most offensive accent they probably had was that woman on the violin in the Raimi films. And this one you're just like, why do we have like a German? Like who's bothered about that as I was when you first saw that? It does feel very like movie villain where they're like, oh, who should we cast? The Nazi scientist kind of role. And the Russian. Yeah, it's always either Russian or German or British.
00:54:14
Speaker
I've just looked up Dr. Kafka, who the character is playing, and it is usually a woman, it seems like. They made the brave choice of casting a German scientist to play a role usually played by a woman. I don't think it was particularly interesting character. It was just kind of like cookie cutter evil scientist number three. I didn't like that choice very much. I thought Electro himself was an interesting-ish villain. I liked some of what they were doing. The special effects, the electricity,
00:54:43
Speaker
It was beautiful. Yeah, I will agree there. Particularly in Amazing Spider-Man 2 as opposed to Amazing Spider-Man 1. Amazing Spider-Man 1 had some very good special effects as well, but I think the special effects and the lighting choices and whatnot for Amazing Spider-Man 2 was very, very well done. I think it was very pretty. Did not like the choice of music, the dubstep choice.
00:55:04
Speaker
for Electro was interesting. I guess they were like, oh, we need electric music. What's electric music? We'll go dubstep. What's that Skrillex chap doing today? Yeah. And the fact they made Itsy Bitsy Spider into dubstep at the end. Hardcore. Yeah. God, what was this choice?
00:55:22
Speaker
His motivation of just being like weird obsessed guy who no one pays attention to and so is obsessed with the fact that anyone who gives him the time of day is his new favourite friend and obsesses over them kind of thing. That is interesting, but I don't know. I think it's just a bit lazy. The way that he got his powers of falling into the vat of eels. Why are villains always falling into vats of things? Who's leaving all these open vats for people to fall into? Pure safety of regulations, apparently.
00:55:50
Speaker
I was actually thinking that exact thing when I was watching the movie. I was like, why is he reaching over to fix this cable? The safety regulations here are ridiculous. I just say he wanted to get out so he could get to his party because it was his birthday. But like, if he designed the grid and was very familiar with electricity, he would know plugging these in together was going to electrocute himself.
00:56:08
Speaker
So he should have made sure he had the right kind of equipment before he attempted to use that. So I think that was very poor writing, the fact that someone who is smart enough that they designed an entire electrical grid, apparently, wouldn't know to use the right safety equipment when handling high voltage equipment. So I don't think that was very smartly done. The use of his powers is very interesting, like his phasing in out of existence and like rematerialize himself. He was almost like Dr. Manhattan at times. Yeah, that's what I thought. I have to say, do you watch? I was like, huh.
00:56:38
Speaker
very watch my list. I have to admit then I don't know if you feel the same way but do you remember Batman Forever, the one with the riddler? Oh the Jim Carrey one. Yeah that's the one. I mean it's been a while since I've seen Batman Forever but it does remind me of Jim Carrey's character that both of them are obsessed fanatics of either Bruce Wayne or Batman and
00:56:59
Speaker
Ballant Forever and of course Spider-Man and this one, but they're both fanatics of these particular heroes and when their heroes betray them they're like, oh no, I'm going to kill them or make them suffer, blah blah. It just seems as if it is a trope that is safe enough. It's like it's something we have seen before and we've seen it done, but I don't know. I don't feel as if
00:57:24
Speaker
Again, I'm probably going to send a broken record here, but the fact that we don't really get enough time to learn about Max. Don't get me wrong, we learn everything that, oh, he's a loner, he's obsessed with Spider-Man. Because there is a weird scene where he's got, ironically enough, the same thing Peter does later on for his dad. He has the huge wall of Spider-Man stuff on it.
00:57:46
Speaker
to celebrate his birthday. He has to wrestle with the Harry Osborn subplot, the Go away the Peter subplot, the Totally Spy subplot with his parents. The fact that Peter for some reason goes underground and fights an even undergroundier train that rises up from the tracks. Which, how? Why? Who put that there? I don't know.
00:58:09
Speaker
I mean, that was a weird, weird side scene because I know why they put it in and everything. It was to be like, oh, Peter, don't use my blood. It's poisonous. Peter thought, yeah, they put that in. So you're wrestling with all these subplots. And of course, as we said, the Aunt May subplot. So you're wrestling with all these subplots and they doesn't really get time to breathe. So see when it becomes a villain, it doesn't really feel earned. You know, it just suddenly snaps and becomes a villain.
00:58:35
Speaker
Yeah, I guess the powers made him a lot easier to anger and like he seemingly when he walked out into the street and into Times Square, clean like needing to absorb electricity and like you kind of had that desire, it seemed like he was scaring people and I think initially he was trying to be good.
00:58:53
Speaker
and calm down. And then he got shot by the sniper and that's what triggered him to be bad. And seeing that Spider-Man then got the attention and that seemingly was kind of against him, flipped him over the edge. But yeah, if a sniper hadn't shot him, would Spider-Man have been able to de-escalate the situation enough that they could have dealt with it better? It's hard to say. There are moments where you kind of do feel for
00:59:14
Speaker
him, but it was a very strange character and I think it says a lot that in No Way Home, when we get him back again, he has a very different appearance and mannerisms. He's not the kind of like nervous, nerdy guy that he was in this movie. They change him up quite a lot. I guess Jamie Foxx didn't want to go through that makeup to look all kind of weird like that again. Fair enough to be fair.
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah, I can sympathise. Going back to the Times Square scene, I do find it horribly ironic that there's a particular scene where a lecture fires all of the electricity towards the red steps. I don't know if there's an official name for them.
00:59:50
Speaker
It's like, you know how all the people are running up the stairs and they're about to grab on to the sides and they're going to get absolutely electrocuted? And then there's a car coming towards them. And then that split second, Spider-Man has hyper senses where it's like, okay, what I've got to do is I've got to stop the car, then I've got to stop these two people from touching the rails. So it's like, there's so many things going on at once that you can calculate. But when it comes to saving Gwen's state, he wasn't so good at that, was he?
01:00:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you can argue that's a little bit of a different situation, but... Yeah, I know, he was tired and he was fighting the Green Goblin, I know, I know. I'm riffing. In case any Andrew Garfield fans do come after me. The one thing I will mock about that Gwen Stacy scene is the web forming a hand. I actually don't mind that, I have to say. I think it looks cheesy, I don't like it very much. Their whole relationship was cheesy, to be fair.
01:00:41
Speaker
Going back to a lecture though, yeah, there was a lot of his comments that I was like, ugh, that wasn't very good. There was one moment I actively booed at the screen where he went, it's my birthday and now it's time to light my candles. And then he like fired off his like electric powers at people. I was like, oh, boo, that sucked.
01:00:58
Speaker
back to the drawing board. I was like, when did he say that? And I was like, oh, yeah, it was after he got his pepper. So I was talking to my partner about this. I was like, it's no longer his birthday. And maybe I can give him the bit of the doubt that maybe he didn't realise because he died and then like woke up the next day. But I'm pretty sure that it's not his birthday at that point. So, you know, when I say that, it's all you know about him.
01:01:16
Speaker
He lives alone, he designed the grid, and he has a birthday. That's his three defining characteristics, I want to say. He doesn't really have much else going, and I know that's the point of the character, but when you're watching a film, it doesn't really make it interesting if it's not more focused on him. But speaking of focus, the final character that we have to talk about before we finish up is Harry Osborne, who has goblin items.
Harry Osborn's Transformation and Friendship with Peter
01:01:41
Speaker
I don't even know what it is he's got. No, I don't think they ever specify the disease, I think it's made up, made up shit. The Big Goblin. Yeah, I genuinely don't know, so I'm gonna call it goblinitis, but it's weird because one man that he's fine, and then by the end of the film he's obviously like retching and turning literally green. And it's like, how long did it take for his dad to turn versus him? But you know, obviously they put it in to raise the stakes and everything.
01:02:06
Speaker
I think the point his dad was making on his deathbed was he's handing him these files that elongated his life. Obviously they weren't very good and he had a poor life from it and so I think Harry was trying to find a better solution so he didn't have to be bedridden while others were trying to figure stuff out for him.
01:02:23
Speaker
I just feel overall their relationship between Peter and Harry is not as strong I would say. Obviously they make it out as if all they've been best friends forever but Harry went out the country to Europe for some reason while Peter fought like a giant lizard and everything and they obviously I know why because they didn't have that all planned out at the time of the Amazing Spider-Man getting filmed.
01:02:46
Speaker
but they do make it out as if they have like this long history. Yeah, it doesn't really feel as if they have like a long history together. And you said something, and I hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but you said something quite controversial when you said that you still believe this, that this Harry is worse than the Raimi Harry. I found him to be insufferable in this
01:03:08
Speaker
There are moments where Dane Dahan is good as Harry, and I think that he is interesting, but he's such a smug little shit. And you can say that's intentional, and that's how Harry Osman should be, but I did not buy his character very well. I don't think that the way he acted was not the way someone who Peter would have been friends with would have acted.
01:03:32
Speaker
You wouldn't think that Peter growing up raised by Uncle Ben and Aunt May would not be hanging out with the smug little shit. He would get into fights with the smug little shits. I don't think that that was an accurate representation of who Harry Osborne should have been.
01:03:47
Speaker
I think there are moments where he does show a stronger side than there are moments where he's having the conversation with Peter about Gwen and like asks if Gwen's a model employee at I was Corp and I was like, Oh, that's such a cringy line. Like that's really like this is uncomfortably cringy line. Then when he does the, when he transforms and appears like hovering on the glider and he's got this like weird grin on his face, he looks so stupid.
01:04:13
Speaker
And the lines are awful and cheesy and everything doesn't quite work. I can't put into words well enough, I'm afraid, but he is just not an interesting enough interpretation of it. I don't like James Franco's interpretation much. And of course, there's huge criticisms around how he acts it and portrays it. But I think there are moments where each are better and each are worse than each other.
01:04:37
Speaker
I don't think necessarily either are how Harry Osbourne should be portrayed, but I don't think that Dean DeHaan does a good job. He definitely would choose the scenery, but not in the best ways. I brought this up in a row, we were discussing it last week, but the idea that James Franco as Harry Osbourne, at least he comes across as being very awkward.
01:05:01
Speaker
At least in the first couple of films, I know I've said that I was a big fan of his acting, but at least it comes across as awkward and you can kind of get why Peter would be his friend. But you're completely right in this film, it's just as if, oh, this rich arsehole is like, oh, I'm dying of Coplanitis.
01:05:20
Speaker
In this film, Harry Osborn as a character doesn't really seem to be likeable. I don't know obviously who's available and why should he be likeable, but you can even see him as like a tragic figure because he calls off Gwen Stacy who at this point anyway in their discussion is
01:05:38
Speaker
probably the better love interest. So, to me, the only Green Goblin so far that has killed a love interest, just a weird choice. I'm going to be honest, it's just a weird choice overall with just everything. With the Green Goblin, with the way he acts as Harry Osborn, with the way he acts as, as I said, the Goblin, with the way he does that weird thing that St. Jesse Eisenberg
01:06:00
Speaker
does not man a steel Batman vs Superman would they arrest him? They kind of allude to, oh there's a bigger plan in play and they give out all of their suits which is dumb as hell. Wrapping up though, wrapping up for kind of thoughts overall on this particular entry. How would you rate the Amazing Spider-Man films? Would you say they stand up? Would you say they were overly criticised?
Final Thoughts on The Amazing Spider-Man Films
01:06:25
Speaker
Or would you say they weren't overly criticised enough?
01:06:27
Speaker
I think they stand up and I think that they both stand up and I think that they are underrated. I do think that they are worthy representations of the Spider-Man comic books. I think that they are probably the closest interpretation to the comic books of any of these Spider-Man movies. I think they do very well at that. I do like some of the relationships. As we've mentioned before, I like the relationship between Peter and Gwen. I enjoy the Sally Fields character as Aunt May. I think that's
01:06:57
Speaker
very well done. I think that the special effects are very well done. And as I've mentioned, I'd really, really like how Andrew Garfield portrays Spider-Man. I think he is arguably the best at portraying Spider-Man, but I do think that there are a lot of weaknesses to these two movies.
01:07:13
Speaker
I would not hold them in as high regard as many. I think that the first Amazing Spider-Man is on par with the best of the Sam Raimi movies, but the second Amazing Spider-Man is on par with Spider-Man 3. So it does well in some regards and doesn't do well in others, and I think it kind of holds Ted at a very similar level to what the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films are able to achieve.
01:07:42
Speaker
I think it's as worthy a representation as the initial trilogy. What are your thoughts? I'll give you a fun fact before I dive into my thoughts, but do you know this is the only Spider-Man film with a rotten rating on Rotten Tomatoes? Oh really, that's very interesting. Even compared to Spider-Man 3, which is really surprising to me personally, but what I will say is, I felt as if
01:08:04
Speaker
the amazing Spider-Man films held up better than I remembered them because obviously we've both aged a little since we first saw them in the cinemas and everything. I think that they do a good job for what they're trying to portray but I also do think that they are quite grim
01:08:22
Speaker
At times, I think that tonally, they're all over the place. This is what I'll say. The actors, for the most part, do a fantastic job. Like, I feel as if out of maybe a theory of them, or maybe a couple of exceptions in the MCU, I feel as if the acting is
01:08:39
Speaker
probably the strongest here. I think Andrew Garfield does a great job and I have to say it wasn't on top of watching him in no way home that I actually reconsidered that maybe I was too harsh on him when I watched it initially. So I went back and re-watched it and I thought well actually it wasn't as bad, it was just kind of everything around in terms of plot, tone, pacing.
01:09:01
Speaker
those kind of things which brought the films down. What I will say is, well, even for the second one, I was very surprised at the positive reception that I found that a lot of people had for this film. So, for example, I put out a tweet saying that I was actually rewatching this film, and I asked, I said, what do you think of this film? Do you think it's overheated? Or do you think it's not criticized enough? And after a bit, there were some hilarious responses. One from the Space Castle podcast said,
01:09:30
Speaker
It's like if early 90s Joe Schumacher made a Spider-Man movie, which I think was scathing, God of Pods said, I really enjoyed it because Andrew Garfield is my fave Spidey. There's a ton of pointless dead space in the movie, but I don't care. Overheated, in my opinion, some of the Spidey
01:09:49
Speaker
his top drawer, absolutely agree. Their nostalgic podcast as well had said it was overheated and he loved this movie and yes they tried to jam too much into this. This only does but it wasn't bad at all, just missed a few beats of a solo but it was over all a good show. There's actually a lot of really mixed opinions because that's the thing with these kind of films, usually you expect everybody to hate them, everybody to say oh I think this is the worst thing so it's unsized bread and everything
01:10:16
Speaker
But the majority, even from, there's another comment here from the Scottish Wrestling Network podcast that says, it was a disservice to Andrew Garfield. I loved his Spider-Man, but the second film let him down, which seems to be quite a universal consensus. There's another one reiterating what I said earlier, the podcast nobody asks for saying, it's a perfect example of when the film focuses too much on setting up a future story rather than telling
01:10:42
Speaker
its actual current story. But there is such a mix, to be honest. I was just really surprised when I put out that tweet because I expected everyone to relatively come back and say, oh, we thought this was a terrible film. Burn it, burn it. And that wasn't the case. It's interesting to see that although The Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2 are considered just like that awkward middle child, you know, of the franchise, it's not as revered as the Raimi trilogy, but it's not as beloved as the MCU ones.
01:11:11
Speaker
have come out. It's kind of that middle awkward transitional phase and I feel as if a lot of that is just purely because it came out at the time it did. And don't get me wrong, I know there's a lot of talented people involved in this song and I'm really happy that Andrew Garfield got second chance through no way home but I do agree. I feel as if
01:11:31
Speaker
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 definitely let his character and the actor as a whole, all the actors involved, roll way down with a lot of things, whether that be studio interventions or rewrites or whatever the reason was behind the feelings of this film. I think it is just a shame that it went out the way it did because there's a lot in this film
01:11:54
Speaker
going to end in a more positive note, but I feel as if there's a lot in this film that there is to like about it. As we said, the Spider-Man, the action's good, the actors are good. The one thing I will say, and this is probably going to sound so disgusting, but the one thing I'm not a big fan of is seeing the first person perspective of Spider-Man swimming. That's interesting. I actually quite enjoyed that. I thought it was quite unique because we haven't really had that before.
01:12:20
Speaker
I like it in the first film I have to say, even though it's clear it's been made from the big screen, like for IMAX or something like that. The second film, and also there is like a weird kind of first person view where you're right up against Peter's face and the first one you're like, what is that? But the one I actually did laugh at was at the very beginning after the whole plane crash scene is the scene where Spider-Man's swinging through the city and you get this weird POV from his crotch.
01:12:47
Speaker
And everybody's like, oh, so cool. I'm flying like Spider-Man. And I'm sitting looking around going, is nobody else noticing that the camera's practically coming out his crotch? I did actually notice that when I was watching. I was like, this can't quite be POV, because we're not seeing it from what would be eye level. But I think it was almost like around his stomach, around his waist.
01:13:09
Speaker
like his chest or something like that. It was not eye level where the camera was, so that was a bit of a strange choice. I did enjoy that kind of perspective, that angle. I thought that was interesting. I think what you were saying earlier about the time it came out being unfortunate, I agree with that. I think that it being kind of nestled between a very successful group of MCU movies was difficult for it in terms of like having the comparison there. And people were always, because of like how it was not that long after,
01:13:36
Speaker
the Sam Raimi films, people were always going to compare it to those films and particularly with nostalgia glasses, having so many see that incarnation as their Spider-Man, that that was the definitive Spider-Man because it was really the first for the majority of people. So it was always going to be an uphill battle for these two movies. And I don't think it didn't necessarily help itself in some ways, but I don't think that it deserves the criticism that it got.
01:14:02
Speaker
And once again Andrew, thank you so much for coming on and not only subjecting yourself to both of these films again but just coming on and discussing these films in great length. No problem at all, thank you for having me on and I'm very much looking forward to wrapping up this with the final three movies that we're going to discuss. Oh yeah, I can't wait for us to move on to the MCU and finally discuss
01:14:23
Speaker
Oh, in fact, I'm going to leave it there because I was going to say probably everybody's favourite iteration, but that is quite debatable. So it's going to be a lot of watching from both of us. A lot of research. I expect a whole IMDB page worth of trivia from you next week. You will be disappointed. See me after class. It's just a clicky link.
01:14:46
Speaker
But yeah, what did you think of the amazing Spider-Man films? Did you think they lived up to the hype? Did you think, eh, maybe not? Please let us know. Either reach out to us on Twitter at ChatsanamiPod or reach out on the contact page of the Chatsanami website, podepage.com forward slash Chatsanami. But yeah, before we wrap up, is there anything you want to plug, Andrew?
01:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. If people would like to follow me, they can do at greenchild95 on Twitter and at greenchild95 on Twitch, where I sometimes stream some things like Geoguesser, recently stream some Doom, sometimes some Call of Duty, sometimes some FIFA. Yeah, I'm a pretty eclectic group of games that I often stream. I'm going to be looking at to see some more games to stream soon. So
01:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, check me out if you have not already. I always appreciate your follow. I'm hoping to get affiliates by the end of spring. Definitely go check that out. Absolutely fantastic content. But until then, thank you all so, so much for swinging by. As always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated. I was actually waiting for the funny one.
01:15:53
Speaker
We don't always have to be funny, Satsu. Yes, you're right. This is a serious moment. With great power comes great endings. You have a moral obligation to have a serious ending. No choice, responsibility.