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Public Art and Data Intersect with Ellie Balk
791 Plays1 year ago
Ellie Balk is an artist obsessed with color, pattern, data and mathematics. She creates large scale data visualization public artworks using paint, glass, sound and most recently ceramics. Community engagement and interaction is at the core of her work.
Ellie lives in Brooklyn, while working internationally. Her public artwork can be experienced across the United State, extensively throughout New York City and St. Louis, Missouri and Internationally in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Mae Rim, Thailand in Saint Louis, Senegal and Marrakech, Morocco.
Ellie has worked with High schools students across the United States in creating public art that visualizes mathematics and her ideas have been adapted for use in elementary and high school mathematics curriculum. Her work developed with her teaching partner Tricia Stanley (Brooklyn) in Visualizing Mathematics has been published nationally and internationally through the Bridges Conference (Sweden) and the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (Connecticut, Chicago, New Orleans).
She loves when she can use data as a tool to bring people together. Her visualization workshops have strengthened groups with the Kemper Museum (St. Louis), teams within Google (New York), KOC school (Istanbul, Turkey) and with the National Academy of Design (New York).
Ellie holds a Bachelors of Fine Art from Bowling Green State University in Ohio and a Masters of Fine Art from Pratt Institute.
Episode Notes
Ellie | Website | Instagram | Twitter
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Transcript
Introduction to User Interviews Platform
00:00:00
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Meet Ellie Balk: Artist with a Data Twist
00:01:20
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Vis podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the show, I am very excited to talk with Ellie Balk about her work. Who's Ellie Balk, you might ask? Well, you're about to find out, obviously, when you're going to listen to the show. But Ellie is an artist.
00:01:36
Speaker
working in the confluence, the intersection of data and a variety of different mediums or media. I don't know what the right plural word is here. Let's just stick with mediums. She works on pianos. She works with stained glass. She works with murals, ceilings, glass. It is amazing. Her work is fantastic.
00:01:56
Speaker
There is a link to her website in the show notes that you should definitely check out and she takes data into the community and works with the community which we know is so important not just to accurately represent the data that we're working on but also so that the community will embrace and use our visualizations. So Ellie's working in this public space something that I'm
00:02:18
Speaker
really excited about to see and to hear more about her work and her background. So I hope you'll enjoy this week's episode of the show. Here is my conversation with Ellie Baldwin.
Ellie's Artistic Journey from Therapy to Fine Arts
00:02:29
Speaker
Hey Ellie, good morning. Good morning. How are you? I'm good. Welcome to the show. I am really excited to chat with you. I don't often get to chat with like
00:02:40
Speaker
artists. It's usually data geeks and nerds and people steeped in their computer. And so I'm excited to chat with somebody who has like stained glass right behind you, which is like pop of color on the show. Is that a color wheel on the door? I just noticed the color wheel on the door. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty great. Um, I always want to do something with the doors in my office and I never know what to put on the back of them. So maybe a color wheel would be a good like burst of color. Yeah.
00:03:06
Speaker
So I saw your work on Twitter, really excited to chat about what you do, how you're inspired and how you combine the data with the art. So maybe we could start with a little bit of your background, talk about how you got to where you are and how you sort of pull from these two, I don't want to say polar opposites, but pretty different areas of art and data.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited. I've never been on a podcast before. Well, the dozens of listeners will be very excited. So I didn't have a drive to make art when I was a kid. I didn't take art classes. I didn't even take art classes in high school, but
00:03:55
Speaker
When I was in high school, I met this art therapist and it really kind of opened my eyes into making
00:04:04
Speaker
in order to heal. And so that's kind of where my background was. And I went to school at Bowling Green State University, and I originally went for art therapy, then undergraduate program. But when I got there, it was like they were grandfathering it out. And the teacher was horrible. The book was like this pink book, and it had a duck on it. It was paperback.
00:04:30
Speaker
And it was just like the first class we just read the like the entire introduction to the book. And I was like, this is not gonna work for me. So I dropped the therapy part and just focused on the art part and was able to do a study abroad program through Bowling Green,
Interactive Art Inspired by Italy
00:04:50
Speaker
which was great. And I went to Italy for a year. And
00:04:55
Speaker
I, that's when I was like first studying like aesthetics. And I learned about Walter Benjamin and the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction. Um, and that's all about like the R and authenticity of a work when you see it as an original. So I had taken like an anthology art history class. So I get to Italy and I'm seeing all this work that I just studied. Seeing it come off the page in real life. And I had really.
00:05:25
Speaker
like powerful experience but then also I'm seeing all this artwork behind scaffolding and being restored and then seeing the work of like Giacometti like pristine and bright and it's like this is not what it's supposed to be and
00:05:44
Speaker
as a normal 20-year-old learning something for the first time. I was enraged. This isn't right. We must start off the pedestal. But really, that is kind of the seed of the work that I'm making now. I really wanted to make work that was interactive, that you could touch.
First Data-Driven Public Art in Brooklyn
00:06:05
Speaker
I started making like 2D sculptures. When I was in Italy, I had just a lot of really big ideas and a lot of, I felt really seen there by my professors and they gave me a studio. They were like, okay, let's just put you like an advanced painting or whatever and give me a studio. But I wasn't painting, but as soon as I got in there, I started painting. So I didn't have like a formal,
00:06:33
Speaker
education because when I got back to Bowling Green I was kind of like in advanced painting classes. So I got kind of fast-tracked through that and just really started a lot of collaborative work there. So when you were doing your studies like what type of painting were you doing? Was it
00:06:55
Speaker
you know, abstract art? Was it? I mean, well, when I first started painting, I was like paying with anything that wasn't a paintbrush. So it was really about like the physicality of it. Doing a lot of like imposto and like painting with with the palette knife. But for me, I mean, I was doing oil painting. And that's when I really realized that I had kind of an innate
00:07:21
Speaker
relationship with color. Like there was something, um, I could visualize a color and be able to mix it, um, all the time. And so my colors really like came through, through painting and oil painting specifically, which I haven't done in like 20 years. I gotcha. So before we get into the data piece, so a lot of your work and I'll link to your website on the show notes so people can, there's a big folks who don't know there's a big,
00:07:50
Speaker
like portfolio of images of your art. Sorry, a lot of it is stained glass. So I'm curious, like, where did you add that skill into your
00:08:00
Speaker
Like a year ago. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. Now the stained glass is like pretty new. I've done it. I did a couple projects using stained glass with my, I have a teaching partner in Brooklyn and we work with high school students and I did a couple stained glass projects with the high school students.
00:08:22
Speaker
Um, but as far as like my work, uh, it's only been in like the last year. Wow. That's pretty cool. It's a fun medium. I'm like super been super into it. Yeah. Um, so you go to Italy, you have the, uh, awakening, the art awakening. So where does the data piece come in? So, I mean, I think.
00:08:45
Speaker
It was kind of always there. I mean, I think when I went to grad school, so after Bowling Green, I took some time, then I moved to New York. I went to Pratt and got my master's in fine art there. And I was doing a lot of the collaborative stuff, but I was really
00:09:04
Speaker
Looking back on it now, it seems really fresh. But when I was making it, it was like I was just making work about things that were happening to me every day. So it was a state of visualization. But when you're in the moment making work about the moment, it has no value. But so I kind of got rid of everything. And now I'm looking back and I remember this one painting I made for my niece's second birthday that I was missing.
00:09:27
Speaker
it's funny now and like how cool would it be to have this it was it was really fresh yeah but you know in the moment i was working on found objects and um so the data kind of started there or made it seem like it wasn't so far off um i was doing a lot of collaborative work
00:09:47
Speaker
My thesis show was like, you know, throwing a party and I had people clocking in and out. So I was like collecting data. I gave people roles and they had to wear and make them crowns. And it was so fun. And we played games and, you know, and I was collecting data in that. But my first public art piece, which is called You Are Here, which is on the corner of Vanderbilt and DeKalb,
00:10:16
Speaker
like where the neighborhoods of Clinton Hill and Fort Greene come together. I made this in 2008 and this is when there was just a lot of gentrification, a lot of change happening in the neighborhood. We had this flea market come in, the Brooklyn Flea, and it brought in droves of people from other neighborhoods and I think
00:10:37
Speaker
And from Manhattan, they're looking around like, ooh, this is nice. So I saw a lot of my neighbors moving out. Some things that were cool about that, and I missed my neighbors, but they had bought those houses for $20,000, $30,000. And when they're selling them for $4 million, they're leaving a legacy for their family. But the neighborhood was
Integrating Data in Art Projects
00:11:02
Speaker
just changing so much. I mean, the faces were changing, and the vibe was changing.
00:11:07
Speaker
So I wanted to create a piece that really celebrated home. So I decided to do a circle map and I took out all the street names and then I invited people to come and put a dot where they lived. And what was interesting is that it really started to get people to talk about
00:11:32
Speaker
where they live and it broke down all these barriers and people were connecting. But for me, it created my first data visualization. And I was looking at it and really thinking about like how far people go to get to that spot and really like what defines community, what defines your area because
00:11:51
Speaker
I live farther away, but I have to travel farther to get to that spot. My community is bigger than if I live across the street. It was really interesting and that really started me doing data visualization.
00:12:07
Speaker
Um, and so then I'm curious then when it comes to your work now, what is the process like? I mean, so, um, like there's one on here that I was trying to like dig into. It's called what's your number. And it looks like, um, a pedestrian walkway, like an elevated pedestrian walkway. So, so like when you are commissioned to do a work, does the client say, here's the data we want you to use, or do they just say we want something data? What does that process like?
00:12:37
Speaker
Then I just want to know how you actually get up onto the bottom of this elevated walkway and do the work. Well, it's different every time, but I do feel really lucky that most of the time people come to me and say we want something, and then we discuss what that something is going to be. Usually starting with a specific space, like we want something for this space.
00:13:07
Speaker
Um, and then, um, yeah, and then I'm, I'm able to kind of go from there. So I see. So they say we have this huge, I don't know, side of our building or area in our inside. And it's this huge wall. Why do they want data rather than just a piece of abstract art? Like what is that? Like, yeah. Well,
00:13:33
Speaker
A lot of people do just want a piece of abstract art or they want murals of people's faces. It's funny, I was telling a friend recently, I kind of stopped applying for things a few years ago because I think that people have a very traditional idea of what a mural is. And so, unless I'm invited to something, it's like, I don't usually get it if I apply for some sort of mural, because if they don't have this idea already,
00:14:04
Speaker
you know, about engaging community in this way or, you know, creating something that's this abstract or this involved.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess more about the process. I'm just, I'm curious. So, so let's say you go in and you have this conversation and, you know, I don't know, like, I guess coming from the data side, I'm curious, like, do you go in and find some data? And then do you, I'm guessing you do a whole bunch of sketches before you actually like build something. And then like, so how does, yeah. So like, what's that data to final product? Okay. So I'm, I usually look at the space first. Okay.
00:14:41
Speaker
And sometimes the inspiration comes really fast in the space and I can see it. It can go two different ways. I don't usually like when I see it first because then I have to find the data to fit within this vision that I've seen. So it's much better for me if I can just learn the limitations of the space. I'm very inspired by limitations.
00:15:04
Speaker
I know that it has to be out of glass or it has to be painted and we have to take over the whole area or these are the goals or whatever that is. Then lately, what I like the most is doing a survey. I'll talk with whoever's paying for it. What do we want to talk about or if I'm given free range? I did a project for Spotify that was really one of my favorite projects.
00:15:34
Speaker
Um, they really gave me free range and I was able to just be inspired by the space. And I was really thinking a lot about color and sound. And so I made a piece that, you know, tried to create like a chromatic definition of sound. It was completely arbitrary and amazing. That's so much fun to make. Um, so, you know, in that case, I.
00:15:57
Speaker
I created kind of a framework for the data where I made a list of words that describe both color and sound, and then I attributed a specific color to each word, and those colors came directly from their color deck, so all the colors that Spotify uses, so I was able to relate all of that.
00:16:18
Speaker
One thing that's really important to me is that the work really fits in the space that it's in. So for that one, it was important to use kind of their color palette, their color palette, which was nice because it really does match the space. So then I took those colors and those sounds and I ended up working with this guy, Glenn McDonald, who is like the data, they call him the data alchemist. That's Spotify. He is the one who creates the algorithms for the Discover Weekly. Oh, okay. All right.
00:16:48
Speaker
excessively. Super cool. So I got to work with him. And he's working on this other project where he is creating genres of genres. And I don't know where it's at now. But when we were working together, the genres are like
00:17:04
Speaker
3,000, 4,000 different genres. So I worked with him to create a specific song that would go with each color. We started with genre and then we picked song and we worked on a playlist together and then we sent it out to Spotify employees where they then attributed the color to the word and then a color to the sound.
00:17:26
Speaker
So the visualization was basically like how many people agree with me. Right. You like crowdsource the association. Yeah. So it was really, really interesting. And then so I created the mural ended up being on the ceiling and then it bent over onto the wall.
Community Engagement in Art
00:17:45
Speaker
So it's kind of like the axis went straight down the middle and then the sound data was on one side and the word data was on the other. And so
00:17:53
Speaker
It was super complicated and, you know, I sometimes wonder, do people ever really get it? Like, I'll look back on them sometimes and I'm even confused and I made it. But I think there's something interesting about that. Yeah. Well, it is interesting back to your point about community, right? Like if you are a Spotify employee and you got this survey or email, whatever it was.
00:18:20
Speaker
You know, every day you walk into the office, you know, and you see this mural, it reminds you of, I mean, can remind you of that experience of this data collection. It's yours. And I think that that's something I learned really early on. I was doing a teaching artist residency and I was
00:18:39
Speaker
showing slides of this collaborative mural I used to do like collaborative murals with different organizations and stuff and the squirrels like oh I made that and I was like yeah you did like that's yours you know and so um you know when someone paints a wallet becomes theirs and they're involved in a project it's it's it's there so I really love any opportunity that I can use this work to really bring people together
00:19:03
Speaker
It's really interesting. There's a whole discussion in the research world about trying to understand people and having them own a bit of the research in terms of, not own the science of it, but only the outcomes, that there's a recommendation and that's how you really connect with people. But to data, I'm curious about how you think about engagement and inspiration. Obviously,
00:19:30
Speaker
Your work is going to be different than someone working in an Excel dashboard or an R, a map built in R. But do you think about your work as being inspiring or being engaging or telling stories, or is just all of those things sort of wrapped together? And it feels like it's very like you're trying to make it personal for people who are viewing it. Yeah.
From Data Gathering to Design Execution
00:19:54
Speaker
I mean, I hope it's all the things wrapped together. I hope that there is an experience and I want the work to stand on its own as being just something really beautiful and interesting to look at. And then there's that second layer to it of it really telling a story.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah, so I want it to be all of it. Right. Yeah. So I wanted to go back a little bit. So what is the in between point? So let's say the Spotify project, it's kind of a perfect example. So you've actually collected all the data. Yeah. So then before you go paint it on the wall, what is your process like? Like, are you drawing a million different drafts and are, but are you working on the computer too? Like, how do you, like, what does that process like? Yeah. I mean, this is.
00:20:37
Speaker
So I'm not in, I have no background in mathematics or data. Like I was not good and not a good student in school. So like a lot of this stuff sometimes it's like, everything is a little bit backwards, I think. But I do, you know, start with like a spreadsheet. My best friend's like a whiz with Excel. So she'll often help me
00:21:00
Speaker
sort things and do, you know, all the crazy Excel stuff if I want to see something in a certain way. So she'll help me clean up the data. But it's difficult because if I have an idea and I want to see something, it'll take me eight hours to visualize, you know, I had to create the system and create that and I'm doing most of my stuff in Illustrator. But I'm doing it all, you know, I figure out all the math for, you know, for having a unit of 10, like what
00:21:28
Speaker
what's the size of each unit and how am I going to upscale that. And so, um, and then, you know, I'll do something and then I'm like, Oh, I hate it. You know, another one and another one. So the design process for me is pretty slow. Um,
00:21:44
Speaker
It's great when it happens fast, but it just, it doesn't usually. Yeah. Have you ever worked through that process and gotten to the point where you were maybe satisfied or something and then realize it doesn't quite work in the space? Well, I think I'm always thinking about the space first. That's creating all my limitations. That's very important. All the work belong is made for that space. Right. Yeah.
00:22:13
Speaker
Um okay so um so then when it comes to putting in the final piece this is like me having no idea how this works like for the Spotify piece I have this vision of you like Michelangelo like on the on the scaffolding like painting on the ceiling like is that is that how it's working? Yeah yeah um so that was my second uh ceiling piece and I was like I'm never doing
00:22:40
Speaker
Oh, but I did it again. Yeah, my friend Allie Meyer helped me. And we had scaffolding that was at like six feet and we stood on the scaffolding and I think the most difficult, I'm gonna say difficult, but it was also the most fun I get really into
00:23:03
Speaker
The math, but in like a beautiful mind, sort of like, you know. I love it like I just finished this piece in Morocco I made a giant sundial and I was like.
00:23:15
Speaker
For an entire week, I was just beautiful minding out like it was just like, and I have no idea what I'm doing. And so, um, but it was, you know, the, the math on the Spotify piece was so complicated. Um, and the measurements were so complicated. So I got one of those, um, like electric rulers that you could go to like the micro because I can't.
00:23:35
Speaker
I do get like really into the data and it becomes super important that I just, you can't fudge it because if you fudge this one, then it's all of it is off. And when I'm upscaling from, you know, a piece of paper to this, it's like, I can't, I don't, I don't, I just, I get really, really into it. But it's
Exploring New Art Mediums and Techniques
00:23:54
Speaker
awesome when I'm working with other people.
00:23:57
Speaker
Um, cause I often, you know, work with assistants or work with students. And I love when there's this shift for everyone where like a color becomes a number, or we start speaking in this other language about making this piece. And so that's kind of, I don't know, that's like a little piece. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, the upscaling is really interesting too, right? Because when you're in the digital world, like, you know,
00:24:23
Speaker
most data visualization folks are you just change the number of pixels on the dashboard and you just go and you don't have to really think about you know paper to wall or even like desktop to mobile because you know the the platform is going to kind of do it for you.
00:24:44
Speaker
So do you have a favorite, um, medium to work with or work on? I mean, I imagine like the Spotify ceiling is like drywall, but then you've got like a lot of outdoor pieces that are presumably not. Um, do you have like a favorite that you like to work with? Um, no. I mean, I,
00:25:09
Speaker
You know, I was painting mostly murals for a long time. And I think I'm really excited about kind of breaking out of that. And since breaking out of that, I, I just finished a project, a mural project, and I brought a friend on with the project and
00:25:26
Speaker
I was like, man, I haven't painted in so long. But there was something that felt really good about it. Painting is really, it's easy. It's not easy, easy, but it's a lot easier than stained glass or ceramic or whatever else I've been up to. But yeah, I'm really happy to be breaking out of it and learning new things.
00:25:50
Speaker
before last year, I didn't know how to do like caning with stained glass. I'd never worked in ceramics before, and then I got to make these two huge pieces. So I'm pretty excited about that. Yeah. The last thing I want to ask you about is color. You touched on it earlier. I mean, the one thing that really, I mean, literally jumps off the page. Well, not literally, because that would be scary, but really jumps off the page on your portfolio is you use a lot of bright
00:26:19
Speaker
color in your work and I'm not sure I really have a well-formed question on that but just maybe it's what is your thought process when it comes to using color because in in the sort of you know digital data vis world it's always a challenge and color is so important when it comes to making your your graphs but
00:26:37
Speaker
What is your, again, I don't really have a well-formed question here, but like, what is your color? What is your, what do you think about when you're, when you're working in all these, on all these colors? Yeah. Um, I think we touched on it a little bit and I, and you know, I think that the color, I really want the pieces to belong to a space. So color is really important that I can spend a lot of times make like a lot of time making a palette.
00:27:05
Speaker
Um, but I also love to like go to a space and pick up the color from that space. Um, I did a project, um, over the pandemic with, uh, the residents at, um, good Venera hospital. Um, and it was.
00:27:21
Speaker
It was really powerful and they're so proud about their neighborhood and they weren't able to leave the facility at all. So I went around and I took pictures and then brought them back and then we picked the palette from there. So it was taking the colors directly from the neighborhood and color matching it.
00:27:40
Speaker
and picked it with pick the colors with them. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so I definitely see this theme of community and connections and all of your. Yeah. Well,
The Role of Color in Art and Space
00:27:49
Speaker
yeah. And so any time, you know, I've been really lucky to do a handful of residencies. And so when I go, you know, I'll just go around and start collecting color from things that I find or things that I see. Usually I do that through physical object, which I think is really interesting, too, like paint chips.
00:28:09
Speaker
And so that really informs the color as well. But sometimes it's intuitive too. I remember I did this project in 2011, it was called Sound Waves. And the color palette was just pretty intuitive. I'm now starting out too. So I just made the color palette. And then I painted this huge, it's 160 feet under the BQE.
00:28:35
Speaker
in Brooklyn and I painted it and then I looked around and I realized that that building was the same color as in the mural, not building that showed up in the mural. And I was like, okay, I wish I would have paid more attention. I would have been smart, but I'm glad that it just came in anyway. So it ended up seamlessly fitting into that space. So that was lucky. Yeah, that's really cool. But it is a good reminder, I think,
00:29:03
Speaker
again, back to the Tableau Excel D3 folks of the world, like there are ways to pull colors, not just randomly. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's, I mean, it's a huge challenge in creating a palette. Like I did that series of visualized pie murals and sound projects. And, you know, with pie, it was difficult because I would create a palette that every color needs to look good next to each color, no matter where it shows up. Right. So, you know, really thinking about tone and like,
00:29:30
Speaker
So I use paint chips when I, so I have collected paint chips from every paint company and just go and collect one by one. But it's nice because I can, you know, I can kind of spread that all out and I can move stuff around and make sure that it's going to work. I mean, if I'm working with a set of data where I know exactly how things are going to show up, I can be much more controlled, like the stained glass project.
00:29:54
Speaker
But that's different too, because with glass, which is so exciting and why I'm very excited about it with the color. Like, I don't know what that piece is going to look like until the entire thing is installed. Right. Like this last piece that I did. Oh, I can't have it on my left. We're pro-pat on the publisher. But yeah, I mean, that was.
00:30:17
Speaker
I don't even know how that was a huge project. And like, I'm, you know, looking at, you see the palette is actually right there. So, you know, I could kind of see what it was going to look like, but you put it up and then there's a tree behind it or there's, you know, it's not sunny or, you know, and then all the color changes. So I've been thinking a lot about that. And I think.
00:30:40
Speaker
I really want to play with layering color with glass because that could be really interesting. Yeah. And the color can change over the course of the day, right? As the sun moves.
Episode Conclusion and Community Invitation
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. You kind of have almost kind of limited control. There's the camera.
00:31:00
Speaker
Well, Ellie, this has been great. I'm a big fan of the work. Appreciate you coming on the show and yeah, sharing all the process and hopefully folks can pull some out of this. For those who are, you know, more digitally minded, they can use some of this in their own, their own. Well, if anybody wants to collaborate and teach me how to use the technical tools again.
00:31:20
Speaker
We can do that. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. For those who are listening or watching, I put Ellie's site and Instagram and email on the show notes so you can reach out if you want to. If you want to be Ellie's Excel go-to person. Yeah. Cool. Ellie, thanks so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it. Thank you.
00:31:40
Speaker
And thanks to everyone for tuning in to this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I really do hope you'll check out Ellie's website, check out some of her art, check out there's some really great high resolution photographs over there of her different installations and her different projects. And I hope you'll check out all the great things that she's working on on her Twitter feed as well.
00:32:00
Speaker
So thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of the show. Lots going on on the policyvis.com website from blogs and other podcasts and different resources. So please do check them out. And until next time, this has been the policyvis podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
00:32:16
Speaker
A whole team helps bring you the Policy Viz podcast. Intro and Outro Music is provided by the NRIs, a band based here in Northern Virginia. Audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs. Design and promotion is created with assistance from Sharon Sotsky-Ramirez, and each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you'd like to help support the podcast, please share and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:32:39
Speaker
The Policy Vis podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners, but if you would like to help support the show financially, please visit our Winnow app, PayPal page, or Patreon page, all linked and available at policyvis.com.