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Shirley Wu on Data, Art, and Innovation in Visualization
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Welcome to the Season 11 Finale of the PolicyViz Podcast! I’m ready for a summer break and am super excited to close the season talking with Shirly Wu—data visualization artist, technologist, and community thought leader. We talk about Shirley’s journey from creating vibrant, web-based data visualizations to developing physical, multi-sensory data art. Shirley shares what she learned during her recent graduate studies in art and technology, her reflections on data, emotion, and the role of art, and the ideas behind her widely discussed blog series on the state of innovation in the data visualization field. We also discuss how the pandemic reshaped our community, the challenge of maintaining creative joy, and the importance of making space for both functional and expressive data storytelling. From Tokyo to San Francisco, Shirley’s work bridges client projects and immersive art experiences, all grounded in data.
Keywords: Shirley Wu, data visualization, data art, scrollytelling, innovation in dataviz, physical data experiences, emotional data storytelling, PolicyViz Podcast, post-pandemic data, visual storytelling, ITP NYU, creative data design, interdisciplinary art, Jon Schwabish, data literacy, local data engagement, experimental visualization
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Email: jon@policyviz.com
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Transcript
Season Finale Introduction
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Biz Podcast. I'm your host, Jon Schwabisch, for the final episode of season 11 of the show. whoo I am looking forward to a break.
00:00:25
Speaker
you don't know, it's a lot of work putting a podcast together. So I'm looking forward to a couple months off. I've got one kid on her way to college. I've got another kid who, well, I don't know what he's going to be doing this summer, but we're working on
Introducing Shirley Wu
00:00:38
Speaker
that.
00:00:38
Speaker
I am very excited for this last episode of the season. I am joined by Shirley Wu. author, artist, data visualization creator, ah does all the things.
00:00:50
Speaker
And Shirley, among other things, is the co-author of Data Sketches with Nadi Bremer. But she's also most recently written a few posts on the field of data visualization, where we are and where we are going,
00:01:04
Speaker
as a field in particular, she's written about innovation in the field. Has the field sort of plateaued in our innovation? And many others have written some responses and reactions to this, including of course, myself.
00:01:17
Speaker
Allie Torben has recorded a video with some with Will Chase and some others. ah Mort Steffner, who was on the show the last few weeks also wrote a reply.
Data Visualization Conversations
00:01:28
Speaker
And so Shirley and I got to talking and decided to record a podcast episode about these issues because I think you know having these you know sort of one-off blog posts really is easier and I think more interesting when we have these actual conversations.
00:01:42
Speaker
And my perspective I think is a little bit different than than Shirley's, but I think what you'll hear in this conversation is we get to a place where we both sort of explain our feelings on the data visualization field, where we are and where we are going.
00:01:54
Speaker
I'm also placing this episode at the very end of this season to sort of give a nice balance to last week's episode with Edward Tufte. Sort of where we were, kind of where we started in ah sort of this modern era of data visualization.
00:02:10
Speaker
And thoughts on where we are going with one of the leaders in the field who has done so much to broaden how we think about visualizing data, both in the digital realm on our computers, but also in the physical realm. And as you're here, Shirley going back to school and doing more art, doing more hands-on work, all rooted in data and data visualization.
Season Recap and Listener Engagement
00:02:32
Speaker
So I hope you've enjoyed this season of the show, covered a lot of ground, covered a lot of different ways in which people are interacting and creating data, ways in which people are engaging others with data, and of course, our modern tool sets and where artificial intelligence is sort of poking its head into our work.
00:02:51
Speaker
If you have some time this summer, or winter, of course, if you are on the other side of the planet, I'd encourage you to check out the last 11 or so seasons of the show. a lot of great content in there, I think, to help you become a better and better and more effective data communicator.
00:03:08
Speaker
And of course, I would be remiss if I didn't do the one last call out, if you can, if you could just take just a couple of seconds, a couple of minutes this summer, While I'm off, if you could just rate or review the show on your favorite podcast provider, be it iTunes, Spotify, even on Zencaster, or if you're watching this on YouTube, ah subscribe to that channel.
00:03:27
Speaker
If you don't want to do any of that and you'd like to rate or review my books on Amazon or Goodreads or your favorite bookseller, I'd really appreciate that as well.
Shirley's Journey into Data Visualization
00:03:37
Speaker
So I hope you have a great few months. I look forward to bringing you more great episodes this fall.
00:03:44
Speaker
So until then, here is my conversation with Shirley Wu on the Policy Biz Podcast.
00:03:52
Speaker
Okay, now now I'm starting by laughing. Hi, Shirley. are you? It's so great to see you. It's great to see you. We're just going start by just, we'll just laugh the whole time. and It's really good to see you. It's been far too long.
00:04:09
Speaker
I mean, yes, a long time. ah since Yeah. And it's so long that we're actually not sure if we ever talked face to face before versus just as just versus just messages and being online.
00:04:21
Speaker
Right. And being online. Yeah. um Well, that's I don't I don't know. I think that that's probably there's probably some sadness dipped in there somewhere, but we're talking now. So that's good. um Yes.
00:04:32
Speaker
We've got a lot to talk about. You've been doing some very cool. stuff over the last just following you watching the stuff that you've been doing and then last few weeks I guess or so you've written this like series of blog posts and sort of I think sort of kicked off something that's been lacking in the field for a while which is like the community like having a big discussion which has been like super fun because I kind of missed that of like everybody weighing in so that's been fun so we can talk about that um so why don't we talk about like i don't know where you want to pick up from but like
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah. Like, where are you? What are you up to? have you been doing the last like couple years? Yeah. Yeah. um Well, first, thank you so much for inviting me on. Thank you so much for one, reading the ah blog posts, then responding to them and then inviting me on so that we can have a discussion.
00:05:23
Speaker
um I guess, ah hello, my name is Shirley. um i started out as a software engineer making data visualizations. um Got really, really into making very big, elaborate,
00:05:37
Speaker
And you know colorful joyful data visualizations I think I spent a good like four or five years of my career doing that and and then. um ah The last couple years, I guess I got really burnt out like many people during the pandemic and wanted to do something different um and went back to Grad school, so I went back to a program for.
00:05:58
Speaker
and art and technology, mainly because um after spending a decade making data visualizations for the web, for digital, for the screen, i got really um interested in what it would look like to take these data stories and bring them out of the screen and into the physical world.
00:06:17
Speaker
And I got really fascinated about like, what does it mean we can kind of, you know, of experience the experience the data and the stories with not just our eyes and maybe our ears, but ah ah what does it mean if we can also feel them
Art School Experiences
00:06:36
Speaker
or smell them? And um I've never gone into the taste, but I think that would you know also be really cool.
00:06:43
Speaker
And so that's why I went back to grad school. And so in grad school, i'm i it was a very fun time. um I learned a lot of like hardware and physical and and digital fabrication.
00:06:55
Speaker
But I think what was the most interesting and fun about my time there um is that it was an art school. um And so it got me thinking a lot about like, what is art? What is the value of art? Does it even need to have a use and a value?
00:07:10
Speaker
i'm and and then what does it mean to make art with data? um And so once I graduated, um i ah wrote an article for the Nightingale um on their emotions um in their like emotions volume, um kind of making an argument that physical data experiences are very, very good for the kind of data stories that we really struggle to tell via screen.
00:07:40
Speaker
And those might be the ones with like incomplete data or missing data or imperfect, messy, or even like very emotional ones. um And then um from there, i went and wrote those three blog posts you were talking about and here we are there's like a big gap in like all the cool stuff like just so people know if they haven't seen so like i would watch because because when you started grad school um i don't remember where where i saw you sharing the stuff but like you were doing stuff with like um
00:08:16
Speaker
you know, you were like coding stuff into physical things. And then like, I think there was like, um yeah, I saw a couple of your projects and there was one that was like, you had built, i don't know. I wouldn't, know if I'd call it a robot, but it was some sort of machine that was like doing something.
00:08:30
Speaker
And I'm, and I'm watching these and I, I had a thought at one point, um whether you're in school and there are people like, surerley will
00:08:43
Speaker
Like, because that was after data sketches came out. And I kind of was like, I wonder if there are people who were like, whoa, there's like celebrity. no Like, I would have been like, yeah. There was, I think, maybe a handful of people had like worked in newsrooms or like had done like, you know, ah like had already done a lot of generative art things that kind of knew what I But they were really nice.
00:09:10
Speaker
They were I also imagine like art school being very different than like, you know, you clearly went through like business, finance, computer science, me for economics. Like I would guess that like just the atmosphere is very
Integrating Art and Data Visualization
00:09:24
Speaker
different. And it's not like take a test, right? Like just unleash your creativity every day.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yes. So when I graduated my undergrad, I was so burnt out that like I was like, I will never go back to school ever again. I refuse to take another test, put a test in front of me and I am triggered.
00:09:40
Speaker
um And um so I should also say that the program I went to, it's called ITP um and it's at New York University. um it's It's not it's not I wouldn't say it's art school. It's like a weird like think.
00:09:54
Speaker
OK. I don't know if everybody that went ti to ITP would agree with me when I say this, but to me, it feels like if um a bunch of people from like hacker and makerspaces went and made art school, it's like got elements of art school, but like it's more also tech and design.
00:10:10
Speaker
i But the the best part, what I loved about it was that i'm ah it was one, no grades. um and so And so I could go in and just learn for the pure love of learning. learning And then two, no tests. It was all project space. Like it was all final projects. And um so it was very practical and hands on.
00:10:35
Speaker
um And that's what I loved about it. i ah and that's the only reason why I went back because ah no tests and no grades.
00:10:44
Speaker
Sounds like the dream. Just learning. For the sake of learning. and That's amazing.
Innovation and Challenges in Data Viz
00:10:49
Speaker
Okay. So now, and and I, of course, want to talk about the the the blog posts and innovation and and where their field is and where it's going all that. But I did want to ask.
00:10:58
Speaker
So now... it sounds like you're sort of combining these two skills that you have, like sometimes, or maybe both times you're like building stuff, you're doing some exhibitions, you have a couple of things coming up that we want to talk about. And then you're also doing like computer client, like sort of like data sketches, Shirley Wu, like work. So is that, so if you like found the middle ground that you like your happy space now?
00:11:26
Speaker
Oh, completely not yet. I'm, um, I'm a I'm like a frazzled chicken running around Tokyo right now. And so um what happened was the year that like half a year within the first half year after I graduated grad school, I had like a mini existential crisis of like, what am going to do? Am i like an artist now? Am i what am i um Am I doing client work again? um And then kind of the balance I figured out was like, I
00:11:58
Speaker
And I went back to grad school because I wanted to do something different. And then because I got to have that break, I, I realized I kind of really missed, um you know, data viz, our community, client work. um And so i decided, like, what if I can do half and half? Like, what if I can do client work and stay still stay like,
00:12:20
Speaker
ah little bit like one foot in that world. So I think we still have a very, we still have very exciting things going on. um And then, but also, um I'm so fascinated by kind of the art that I've been making and what I'm exploring with that.
00:12:39
Speaker
um And so then it became like, well, how do I facilitate this new art thing? um And then I realized that where I'm most artistically inspired is in Japan and in East Asia. And so um last year i made a company here in Tokyo and now I live half the year in Tokyo and half the year in San Francisco.
00:13:00
Speaker
um And when I'm in Tokyo, I do art. When I'm in San Francisco, um i do client work. i But it turns out um one plus one is not two. It's like 500. And I'm still trying to figure out like how to make both work at the same time with me, just one person.
00:13:18
Speaker
but but Yeah, I know that. I know that feeling. Yeah, like a million things. Yeah. but that is But that is really exciting. And i can and i could see how they will, kind of the two sides, as it were, will sort of inform each other.
00:13:35
Speaker
I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. One day. hope so. Thank you. One day. That's a dream. That's a dream. Yes. Okay. So let's turn to these blog posts because that's why we sort of like started chatting.
00:13:47
Speaker
um So, and lots of people have been talking about this now that you sort of started this, like, I would say like a bigger think series, right? So these are these are not sort of your like, you 500 word blog posts. These are like big think with like,
00:14:02
Speaker
especially the second one, like a lot of research like went in behind that because you talk to a lot of people. um And so I guess like just the, just like the the part, I think just to pull out like, and for folks who haven't read them, they obviously should,
00:14:16
Speaker
um maybe read them before you listen to the rest of this podcast? I'm not sure. We're going find out. ah yeah we'll see We'll see how the conversation goes. We'll do this conversation, and then when I record the intro, I'll let folks know whether you should be reading them or not. Sounds great. So so hold on. Okay. So...
00:14:34
Speaker
um OK, so in the second post, you this is the this is the key thing I just wanted to get us started, was that you wrote, quote, the craft of telling data informed stories on the web has plateaued.
00:14:46
Speaker
And then you sort of went into kind of a love hate relationship with scrolly telling and then um and then sort of you know talk to, you know, Georgia, Lupi and Moritz, Stefano and a whole bunch of other people um about sort of what they see and what's going on. So um So I don't know, there's a lot to unpack and maybe we just start with like your main thoughts and then you and I can fight it out for a little bit. and like Yeah. that what this all We'll solve all the problems.
00:15:15
Speaker
We'll solve all of it. um Yeah. Yeah. i'm i' That second one was really fun to read. i'm a quick shout out and credit to my editor, Emily Brown, for even suggesting that I reach out to everybody that we'd reached out to because I was just going to write about it from my perspective. And she's like, well, this is a really big industry observation, maybe you should reach out to and she helped me make that happen. yeah um But ah this is a thought that's been brewing my head for like two or three years now. um and I think it first started happening.
00:15:47
Speaker
um when um'm i was helping look through the shortlist for the 2022 Information is Beautiful Awards. And I was like, oh, these are all really beautiful and well executed, but also nothing is standing out. I think I was helping call the shortlist down to the the top three.
00:16:08
Speaker
um And we were like trying to rank them. And i had a little bit of a harder time that year and because everything... felt they were and the content was great like the content and the stories were great but from a visual perspective they were starting to feel very templated um and um that was when i started being like wait and then scrolly telling has been thing for like seven years now or six five six years now um and what was because i was so excited when scrolly telling became a thing but then what what has there been
00:16:48
Speaker
anything else since then that has been as industry shifting as scrolly telling. And I just drew a blank. And so that was kind of the starting point of where, um of where this blog post started to take shape.
Industry Trends and Client Work
00:17:01
Speaker
And then kind of the like nail, I guess, in the coffin of like why decided to write it was when my favorite, i'm one of my favorite repeat clients, i am I ended up delivering just a line chart, pie chart and bar chart for them.
00:17:16
Speaker
um um and because they had asked to scrap the only like custom designed um visual um which you know um fully agree that without the legend it was just so confusing and i don't blame them to for asking to cut it out um but um just this kind of like decreased appetite I observed across like, you know, two or three years of like pre pandemic versus post pandemic, or at least like pre grad school versus post grad school of like people being less adventurous with the chart forms that they wanted to kind of like
00:17:53
Speaker
put in front of their audiences or stakeholders. um And then that's why I started working on the series. And then i think what then motivated the series even more um was when um in the middle of working on, will admit, is very clickbaity. The title is very cheeky.
00:18:14
Speaker
and And the part two.
00:18:20
Speaker
the part two where it says like what killed innovation innovation i agree with you john innovation is not dead but would you have clicked on that post if i had written something else honest like what i wrote i wrote my post a response and i was like she's really not arguing that innovation is dead the clickbaity title and so what do i do i just keep i don't know but like no it's it's it's true the the and you admitted that in the post itself like which Which I think also is like, I think speaks a lot to where we are like in the web of like, how do you get people to read things? Like, I think that that, that's a lot. Yeah. That's a meta discussion we can have. Yeah. yeah
00:19:01
Speaker
It is interesting. It is a little interesting how there's like the pre post pandemic because There were so many graphs and data presented during the pandemic that I think a lot of people were saying like, oh, we're increasing data or data visualization literacy, right? We saw like Iberic choropleth maps and we saw histograms.
00:19:23
Speaker
We saw all these graph types, but it sounds like... Would this be fair to say that um sort of the outcome maybe of of your argument or or I'm not sure to put this, but like, that's not true.
00:19:36
Speaker
Like we all thought that that was happening, but then like we got on the other side of the pandemic and like nobody wanted to buy barrier corduplects now. Like it was fine to look at infections and vaccine rates, but like not when you're doing your day to day.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yes. um And actually, i think there might have been like a part of um a section of the the innovation article that I cut out um where it was, um because I think it was, um i think a lot of us was really quite um excited is a weird word to say about the pandemic. But there was a um a period where we were like, yeah, like you said, like we thought data literacy would increase and keep increasing. Right. um And ah while I do think data literacy really increased at a massive scale, I think it only really increased for like a very certain set of charts of the line charts. And then I think people got really great at reading logarithmic sales. Thanks to John, uh, bird, bird, bird,
00:20:39
Speaker
don something um john burton i think you and And ah but then i don't think it ever went beyond that. And I think my hypothesis is that it's because whereas before a lot of people that were into data visualizations, were we were such a niche. We were we were attracting people that were into, um you know, like,
00:21:04
Speaker
spending the time and reading and, and figuring out, you know, like Georgia's like gorgeous, um you know, ah designs or like we were okay with like pouring over the keys and like spending 30 minutes on it.
00:21:18
Speaker
im ah But I think when it shifted from a niche interest to something that is like a general public for lack of a better word, public service.
00:21:30
Speaker
um yeah it It was being read by people who's that's not their interest. They just need like a quick 30 second thing that they can understand so that they can go about the rest of their day informed on this topic that they don't necessarily want to be involved or informed on, but is a need in their day to day.
00:21:48
Speaker
um And so it makes a lot of sense that like for that purpose, the quickest like bar chart, line chart, is something that they already know how to read is what is the most effective in is um and is you know more than enough.
00:22:05
Speaker
i'm And there's a line from your blog post about like economic incentives. um And it makes a lot of sense. im I fully agree with that, that for most use cases,
00:22:18
Speaker
And the that standard set is more than good enough. Right? Yeah, I so I don't want to change the BuzzFeed clickbaity title.
00:22:32
Speaker
but um'm But I think what I'm hearing from you is not so much change in innovation, because I think the the point that I was clearly making in my post is that you know there's lots of ways to define innovation. And sort of I focused on like the tools now are
Innovative Approaches in Data Viz
00:22:50
Speaker
just one place. like It's pretty amazing what you can do now with you know these tools that you couldn't do five, six, seven years ago.
00:22:57
Speaker
But what I think I'm hearing from you is that it's not so much a lack of innovation. It's almost a lack joy in almost a lack of like joy in creating visuals, right? Like, yes I mean, I guess because again, like everybody knows how to read a bar chart. So like we could get really like meta conceptual, right? So do I get joy from reading a chart that I just understand the point?
00:23:22
Speaker
Like there's joy in that, but there is joy in um in in sort of trying to understand something that may be new to me. And I feel like that's what I'm hearing from Yes, and I think that like I'm not I'm also not trying to argue that in every, you know, reading of a chart, every single person, you know, must feel joy or that we need to design every single chart to deliver joy. And sometimes it really is just that 20, 30 seconds information.
00:23:52
Speaker
But I think that there was something that um when I was working on the series of articles, um ah Amanda McCulloch and Elijah Meeks, they put out the um ah article about the fourth wave summarizing kind of where we are in the field right now of data communication.
00:24:12
Speaker
And to me, that article i'm was very much an important summary of one part of our field of the part that is like public communication about like public health communication, science communication, very important and very important.
00:24:29
Speaker
things to inform potentially influence public. um But what I wanted to make sure was that that wasn't the only way, though that wasn't the only summary of our field.
00:24:41
Speaker
um And so one of my friends, Eric Lin, the two of us talk a lot about our field and i' I'm borrowing this analogy from him um of a film analogy. So if we if we kind of summarize, if we kind of, um you know,
00:24:59
Speaker
umm ah use analogy that if data viz is a field um of like storytelling and communication, if we kind of like, you know, equate that to the film field, um then a lot of what the fourth wave is talking about, or like a lot of what you had mentioned, um to me is like the public education, the documentaries, and those are very, very important.
00:25:21
Speaker
But there is also like a lot of other like um you know comedies. There are like Marvel and there are um art house. There are like art house films that like make no sense to most people.
00:25:35
Speaker
none of us are like, our house should not exist or like Marvel should not exist. and We all just talk about how good or bad a particular film is.
00:25:47
Speaker
We don't discuss the necessity of that particular genre. And that's what I was hoping. That's that's kind of what I'm hoping for going forward is like we're like, yes, public education. Very good. Very important.
00:25:59
Speaker
And experimental art house and experimental like, you know, ah things that can push our field forward also equally important and then within those genres let's talk about when each individual piece is good and when when it's bad um and I think that that's something I wanted to get across and maybe it didn't quite land in the series no no I think it did think no I I think it did land I and I and I think there's just like we've been talking about like kind of pre I might even split it up into like pre-pandemic
00:26:36
Speaker
pandemic and then post pandemic, right? Like, um but I guess I also wonder whether there's like, you know, Twitter era and then like the past era. And I and I haven't, I guess I haven't really thought this all the way through, but I do kind of feel like what happened in the data viz field on Twitter, which was so generally joyful,
00:27:03
Speaker
and fun and you know had these sorts of discussions online all the time right um but i do wonder whether we celebrated stuff that no one else saw or celebrated and now because we're not we're not all in that same room um that we're not maybe maybe we're just not seeing them enough or maybe um or or maybe ah creators and clients are less likely to like really push them out as like forcefully in the past. I don't know.
00:27:38
Speaker
ah because because i yeah Cause I can't, I think I would just, you're not saying this, but I think I would disagree that like there are no art house films, right?
Community and Roles in Data Viz
00:27:47
Speaker
I think it's just like, they're harder to find.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yes. I think it's, they're harder to find. And also i think that while in our field, we are fully accepting and celebratory of art house films.
00:28:01
Speaker
I think outside of our field, most people are like, why do we need art house for data viz? Like why? Why? Someone posted my and what killed innovation on a hacker news and not saying that Hacker News is a representative of the rest of the world. It's a very specific subset of the, but most of the comments were like, this is why do we even need innovation? We just need like Tufti, like minimalism, just a bar chart, just a line chart, um which then, you know, really proves my point of like, I think most people outside of our field are like, we only need the public education. yeah um
00:28:39
Speaker
And so um i Sorry. Tufti wrote all those posts, by the way. That was Tufti just writing all those. You're right. Yeah, it's just him. It was actually just him and all the different accounts. It's just different avatars. He just made like a million accounts.
00:28:55
Speaker
um But I think you're absolutely right in that um Twitter was our, like, we were all in the same place. and im But I also... um I'm very sad that we don't have that anymore because the party was very fun.
00:29:10
Speaker
mean, I think we had like such a beautiful niche of Twitter. um But also I really enjoyed what Alberto Cairo said when I asked him about it. And he kind of, um I go into more detail about it in a part three, which has less of a clickbaity title.
00:29:30
Speaker
um um And I called it Beyond the Plateau. um And he talked about how as our field has gotten bigger, maybe it's not our one room and our one party, but maybe it's like a lot of smaller rooms of parties and, um and then how, you know, different people have different motivations in our field and, He called himself a consolidator.
00:29:55
Speaker
um i see you also as a consolidator. I see Amanda as a consolidator of like you bring the field together. You try to bring more people into the field. um I think you're all trying to elevate the baseline data literacy i and that there are others.
00:30:11
Speaker
i'm I consider myself an experimenter. um i really am interested in like what, what how how do we push out those boundaries and edges? yeah ah And that that's great.
00:30:24
Speaker
um And hopefully we you know mingle once in a while across the rooms like we are doing now. um But i'm it's perfectly valid that there's many forms of
Local Engagement and Storytelling
00:30:36
Speaker
innovation. And for people who um are um and consolidators, right now is a very innovative time.
00:30:44
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Do you... Do you have thoughts on how to, i mean, we can't bring that Twitter database era back because that is past, but do you have thoughts on how to, i mean, ah maybe, maybe the right word is like oh increase awareness of not even the more bespoke, because I would also say like your art installations, like your art exhibits, like how do we get people more aware and not just aware, but like, you know,
00:31:16
Speaker
And some of the stuff that maybe like people do that on the art side or on the installation side or on the physical side, like they could recreate it maybe a smaller scale.
00:31:27
Speaker
So have you thought about like how like how do we do that? Is there a way? we like do mean how do we like share what we're Share more?
00:31:39
Speaker
Yeah, share more. Do we... Yeah, I don't know, but like, how do we bring sort of a sum of that party? How do we bring some of that party back?
00:31:49
Speaker
Because I do feel like, and yeah, I mean, maybe it's not something that can be recreated anymore. And we just have to celebrate the fact that there are small parties. Yes. And I actually also think that perhaps it really is much better now with the small parties, because I do want to also acknowledge how privileged of a position that we we were in to be part of that small party. I know that there's people that, you know, we, we were in a party on Twitter that was mostly like Western, and like English speaking. And, and i also have heard a lot of times how like hard that is to enter. If yeah you, if your main first language is in English or
00:32:31
Speaker
you know, or even just the, I, one of the things I loved about the parties was how I got to meet people in person at conferences um that like I had known ah from Twitter, but that's also inherently very exclusive. So I actually think that these like smaller parties are really great because I think it does end up being much more inclusive, hopefully, hopefully more inclusive.
00:32:56
Speaker
um And hopefully there's just, you know, still that we don't, we don't all become siloed. in each of these, that there's still some amount of like cross cross-pollination, cross-conversation across these parties.
00:33:10
Speaker
That's the first part of what I think. And the second part is also that um I don't know if it's a post-pandemic thing, um but i'm I'm, I think, less online these days and more just i'm local. I've been thinking a lot. I really enjoyed your conversation with Yanni about like um local data and um going out and talking to the community. um I think much more about like, i'm how do I, you know, engage and meet people locally and then kind of like um and then especially because
00:33:52
Speaker
you know, i'm art shows are inherently geographically exclusive. it The physical installations are inherently exclusive.
00:34:03
Speaker
um But how do we consider that as a feature and not a bug? um And maybe it's very much about engaging with the local community, inviting them in, a lot of whom are not online.
00:34:17
Speaker
um And then having conversations with them and hoping that they will see my work and engage with it. um And then that's my first step, my first priority.
00:34:31
Speaker
And then it's about how do I document it um for the more people online to see. Yeah. Well, yes, I think that's, i think that's great. And I think there's sort of like,
00:34:45
Speaker
can't and this is how i've sort of thought of like the physical data this stuff right is like um sam huron and wes willett have this book what it called make making with data right which i love this book but like 90 of the projects in that book are things that i could never like bending copper tubes into like this hanging thing like i couldn't do that but i could do that with straws Or I could do it with like cardboard, right? So like, are there ways to bring people into the physical space with data and then empower them to do a sort of like,
00:35:23
Speaker
and smaller, even more local version on their own. yeah What a fascinating idea. have not been thinking about um that as much. um I like to describe where I am currently with, um I have so much pent up feels to make my own shows with for now that I um don't quite yet have the capacity to think about um had like workshops that Involve others.
00:35:48
Speaker
Hopefully I'll get there in a few years after I get out all my feels. um But what i I've been really loving, um i talked to Payne as part of the article Payne from Continentalist. And I loved how she described um how they no longer really call themselves like I think a data scientist.
00:36:06
Speaker
visualization studio but rather um like in human experiences I love that and she was telling me about a workshop where um you know nothing was like you know one-to-one data mapped but instead they invited people from the community in um and asked them to make like you know bouquets from I think ah paper flowers and they got to choose like different colors of paper flowers is based on their answer of um I think it was um how ah how does this or um I think it was like how what is ancestry to you or like what is a which flower best i'm ah ah represents ancestry for you and then they kind of like ah made that bouquet together and they talked about it
00:36:56
Speaker
um And i I love that.
Accessibility and Data Framing
00:36:58
Speaker
i feel like it's um very similar in what you described about like, yeah, I can't bend copper either.
00:37:07
Speaker
well But plus you'd be better able to do it than I would. But, you know, assembling a bouquet, that's something that everybody can do. yeah And I love these things.
00:37:20
Speaker
um And this ties into a, I think, still a half formed thought that um I've been having about perhaps what we're going to see in the future is less about, you know so ah you know, someone that makes data visualizations or data stories or data dashboards or data art, but rather like designers that, you have to be fluent in communicating with data or like artists that use data as part of their medium. um And that data will become so ubiquitous that we don't really like, we don't really make as much of a big deal about it. And I think that that is how,
00:38:01
Speaker
i'm I think that's how, like, I feel like we're, like, consolidators and and, like, I feel like we're working towards the same thing, but from, like, opposite ends of, like, I think that for me, I'm moving, especially in my art, I'm moving further and further away from one-to-one visual channel mapping, i'm but rather use data in my art um in a way that doesn't look like a chart or that doesn't look like there's data, and but it's backed by data, and that's the conversation starter.
00:38:35
Speaker
and I feel like the fact that it does not look like a chart i'm is what makes it less intimidating for non-data people to come in and talk about a topic.
00:38:46
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I mean, it's the data, right, that I think. So here's here's the example I think, at least this is this is how I think about it.
00:38:59
Speaker
If I showed any old person a box and whisker plot, right? It's just a rectangle with some lines off the end. Not a complicated form. But if I say this is a 75th percentile, this is a 25th percentile. this Like most people, those concepts, not that they can't learn them, but they're you know they just don't know those concepts.
00:39:18
Speaker
But like if I showed you the same plot type and instead of the 25th and 75th, I said this is the high temperature of the day and this is the low temperature of the day. everybody would understand that so it's like it's framing it's not the viz necessarily it's the data that we need to sort of figure out how to get that clear i don't know i mean a lot of these are challenges that we've been fighting wrestling with for a long time yes and it's just now sort of like i don't know maybe we have sort of like the field sort of bifurcated out and now we're just kind of like bringing it back together in different ways and like don't
00:39:55
Speaker
I think we are working towards the same thing, but just like from different approaches. And yeah i think you're absolutely right in that. um I think at the end of the day, we're trying to make i ah reading and understanding data more accessible, especially, you know, we can't deny that it's everywhere in our lives now. So how do we make it more accessible for people that don't want to read data?
00:40:20
Speaker
The people that like are like, oh, numbers. um don't want to number. i So then how do we make that easier to digest? um And i think that's very exciting. I think that's that's the innovation part that I'm excited about going forward.
Upcoming Projects and Contact Info
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah. I like that note to to almost end on. um We could talk about this forever, ah think, and we might have to have another conversation. but So before i let you go, um What's next? I know you have at least one show coming up, if not two.
00:40:53
Speaker
yeah And then where can folks like get ah get in touch with you so that you can come and do the show at their place or do the digital thing? Oh, I love that.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah, I would love that. i'm Yeah. So I have two shows coming up this fall in Tokyo. And the first is a solo show in the end of September. um i i And am now going to start calling it my feels. The shows, my solo shows are the fields ones.
00:41:21
Speaker
um And this one is about um immigration and the immigrant experience and the search for home and belonging. um And so what I'm.
00:41:32
Speaker
ah it It has data um in the sense that I've interviewed, i'm I'm going to interview about eight or nine people that have this very unique experience of i'm of having immigrated somewhere as a child and then immigrated back to that area as an adult.
00:41:53
Speaker
um I'm going to visualize their experiences. im And then ah actually, I'm not going to get into too much detail, but I will i will send you the link. of Okay, great. I will share it i'll share it out.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yes. that's That's the first show, and that's in Tokyo in September. Yes. And then the second one is also in Tokyo in October is a collaboration with my dear friend, Amy Wobowo.
00:42:19
Speaker
im ah and And a little bit more fun, um we are doing data-driven ceramics. um And the ceramics are, um the data is ah the flowering dates of cherry blossoms and the ah leaf colored, when ginkgo trees turn from green to yellow in the fall and over the last 80 years.
00:42:50
Speaker
um And its it's very fun. But also, you're going to see that the cherry blossoms are getting earlier and earlier, and the ginkgo trees are getting later and later because climate change. yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. I have the cherry blossom LEGO up there, which is not the same, but I've got i've got i've got that. um Those are both super exciting.
00:43:11
Speaker
So, um okay, so so um so for us US folks, we have to go to Tokyo. We have to go to Japan. Yes. seriously Yeah, please. um Okay, and so how can people get in touch with you? So they want to learn more, they want to work with you, they want you to do a show. Yeah.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah, um' my email is ah hi at shirleywu.studio. work inquiries, any you i and new shows, i would love to hear from you.
00:43:42
Speaker
um But if you just want to know um any updates on the shows, I'm going to start posting kind of like behind the scenes i work oh cool in progress kind of posts. Yeah.
00:43:54
Speaker
And so my newsletter um is at ShirleyWu.studio slash notebook. i And yeah, I occasionally post on LinkedIn and Instagram.
00:44:08
Speaker
But we're right. Or write long three part blog posts that, that, you know, take a while to write and research, but you know, oh my, uh, after those, i was like, Emily, can we do like 500 words?
00:44:22
Speaker
Like, can we do fluff? but My brain cannot. Well, they're great. And, and I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but what I, what I also loved about them is they spurred a discussion.
00:44:35
Speaker
both like this, but also publicly on various channels and people sort of debating about whether, you know, good, bad, yes, no, what direction
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:44:46
Speaker
we're going. So I think like, I think spurring that conversation is a, is a, as I would say, a mitzvah in its own to like get people to have these good conversations.
00:44:55
Speaker
Thank you so much. So Shirley, thanks so much for coming the It's really good to see you. Congrats on everything. I'm very excited to see the, At least the behind the scenes, because I don't think I'll be getting to Tokyo in the fall, but do appreciate it.
00:45:08
Speaker
No, why not? I've got a lot of travel. Don't tell anybody. am I might go to Viz. So that's it. And Europe. So, you know, that's good. But yes, maybe one day. One day i'll get back.
00:45:21
Speaker
But thank you. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, John.
00:45:28
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in in, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that show. i hope you enjoyed this season. And I hope you take some time to go back and check out some of the previous episodes. And if you wouldn't mind, rate or review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:40
Speaker
So until next time, which will be fall of 2025, thank you so much for listening. This has been the Policy Biz Podcast with John Schwabisch.