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Revolutionizing Web Development: Rich Harris on Svelte's Creation and Impact
704 Plays15 days ago
Rich Harris, creator of the Svelte framework, stops by the podcast to talk about his work. Rich shares how Svelte originated from his work in newsrooms at The Guardian and The New York Times, where he developed tools for building interactive data visualizations under tight deadlines. We talk about how Svelte simplifies web development by bridging the gap between HTML/CSS knowledge and interactive applications, making it accessible to both experienced and novice developers. Our chat touches on the broader impact of Svelte, including its adoption in diverse applications like DataWrapper and smart TV interfaces. Rich reflects on the responsibility and challenges of leading an open-source project like Svelte and discusses the ongoing focus on SvelteKit, an application framework built on Svelte, and highlights accessible resources for beginners to get started.
Keywords: Svelte, SvelteKit, RichHarris, WebDevelopment, Open-Source Framework, DataVisualization, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, User Interface Framework, Interactive Applications, Newsroom Graphics, DataWrapper, Declarative Programming, Web Accessibility
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Transcript
Introduction to Rich Harris and Svelte
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy This podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. I hope your 2025 is off to a good start. I hope you're enjoying the show so far. I've got another great episode for you this week. I chat with Svelte creator and developer Rich Harris.
00:00:31
Speaker
If you are unfamiliar with Svelte, don't worry about it. You're going to learn all about it in this episode, but you're not just going to learn about the tool itself. So don't worry if you're not a programmer, you're not a coder. This episode is also for you because you're going to learn about how Rich thinks about the Web, how Rich thinks about developing open source tools and the responsibility he has as the creator and developer of this kind of tool.
00:00:58
Speaker
So we talk a lot about different aspects of data, data visualization, and the web more broadly. And so I think you're really going to enjoy this episode regardless of whether you're a developer, whether you're a data visualization creator, or whether you are just a user of the web and of Dataviz.
Rich Harris' Journey from Journalism to Software
00:01:16
Speaker
So with no further ado, here is my interview, my discussion with Rich Harris of Svelte.
00:01:25
Speaker
Hey, Rich. Good to meet you. Good. Well, morning, my time. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, very excited to chat with you. Everyone I know who's in the ah JavaScript D3 Svelte world is very excited about Svelte. And so I was excited to be able to connect. I thought we'd start maybe with just intros and then talk a little bit about like the early development of Svelte and and what you're
Declarative vs Imperative Programming
00:01:50
Speaker
doing now. Just start there. Yeah. um So my name is Rich. i'm I'm a software engineer at a company called Vosel. And I work full time on a user interface framework called Svelte.
00:02:01
Speaker
and And this is something that I've been working on now for eight years, over eight years. um In my previous life as as a journalist, I um worked in graphics departments at the guardian um the Guardian US and the New York Times. And Svelte is a project that came out of the experiences that I had trying to build rich interactive data driven graphics in that environment. Because a lot of people who've who've dabbled with code, who've who tried to do this sort of thing will know it's it's really hard.
00:02:33
Speaker
yeah and And Svelte was um my attempt to make that easier. um I left the New York Times in 2021 and joined the cell to work on Svelte full-time. And against all the odds, it's become this this sort of thing that is reasonably widely used in web development, um not just in Dataviz, but in web development more broadly to build various different applications. um And that's me.
00:03:00
Speaker
Well, let's start with this for for folks who don't know, can you can you talk about what Svelte does that other similar libraries packages don't do like D3, for example, is probably what most people who are listening to this podcast sort of think about immediately when it comes to JavaScript interactive data vids.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah, so the the first thing to know is that D3 and Svelte aren't exactly competitors. um they They overlap a little bit. and they They solve some of the same problems, but they're things that you can like very much use together, and a lot of people do. What Svelte is more akin to, um a lot of people might have heard of frameworks like React and Vue and Angular.
Svelte as a Tool for Accessible Web Development
00:03:43
Speaker
And they all belong to this this category of projects that aim to make web development easier by making it essentially more declarative. um So in in development, we we often talk about this dichotomy between imperative programming, where you're telling the computer exactly what to do at any given moment, and declarative programming, where you're sort of defining what the world should look like and then letting the computer figure out the details for you.
00:04:09
Speaker
um And so the the projects that I've described React is is the most prominent one. It's the one that's that's most widely used. um they They give you essentially a framework for describing the application that you're trying to build. D3 is a lot more on the imperative side. You're you're describing um what should happen at any given moment um with your data. It's not quite as imperative as coding against the platform directly. Like it gives you this this abstraction layer on top of it, um but less so than these more general purpose web development frameworks like Svelte and Light React.
00:04:52
Speaker
It's a little hard to describe in the context of a podcast exactly what it is, because it's it's it's a, you know, podcasts are a great medium for having conversations about this stuff, but they're a terrible medium for actually showing people, like, it and you really need to be able to kind of see it to kind of feel for what it is. But essentially when you're building an application using Spelt, you're writing a language that is based on top of HTML.
00:05:16
Speaker
and So a lot of people who um who dabble and and in this space know a lot of HTML, know a lot of CSS. And the difference between having that knowledge and being able to write a rich int interactive application is Well, those are static
The Role of Newsrooms in Open-Source Development
00:05:32
Speaker
languages. They're they're good for describing sort of static chunks of a page. And then you're sort of left you're thrown into the deep end of of JavaScript in order to manipulate that in interesting ways and add data and add interactivity. And Svelte is a language that essentially adds interactivity to ah HTML.
00:05:51
Speaker
in a way, and it it does this in ah what we we aim to be a very concise and understandable way, so that if you have that background, you you know you know some HTML and you know some CSS, um you can you can start building interactive applications without having to go off the deep end and read become a JavaScript expert.
00:06:12
Speaker
Right. I'm, I'm curious how your work at the Guardian and the times both inspired the development of Svelte and how it was sort of supported by colleagues or management or like, you know, we're, we're, was this like part of your core job of like, we need a better toolkit. We need a better solution. Or was this you like kind of dabbling off on the side and it kind of picked up steam over time?
00:06:43
Speaker
very much the latter. the The nice thing about working in and newsrooms is that the The people who who run newsrooms have no idea about any of this stuff. Like you're very much left to your own devices. And so i if if you can kind of sit there and and and work on on a tool and people start to use it organically, then eventually they'll turn around and say, oh yeah, it's like you can you can do this. That's fine. But there's never a point at which it it becomes part of the job description. yeah It's very much an ask forgiveness rather than permission type situation. which is you know completely at odds with how it works in a more traditional development environment. um And you know I think probably because of that, rather than in spite of that, newsrooms have historically been really good incubators of open source projects that are actually useful because they're very much driven by day-to-day needs um as opposed to some like
00:07:43
Speaker
you know for for the sake of the project itself, there were always ah means to an end. And so you know the New York Times graphics department has as produced or um like very much aided the development of things like Svelte, but also D3. Mike Bostock did a lot of the D3 development work while he was working in the New York Times graphics department. Other projects would include Backbone and Underscore from Jeremy Ashkenes, who a lot of that work also happened at the New York Times graphics department. And there are plenty of examples from other newsrooms, like things like Django, um have have all come out of this um the same sort of process. um And so, yeah, it's it's been like one of the, I always tell people like if you're a developer and you want to be able to do um really interesting work with interesting people, then like get a job in a newsroom. Right, right.
00:08:40
Speaker
was your work in the Newsome, was it spurred by the storytelling part of journalism? Was it the technical challenges of sort of this, I mean, eight years ago is not that far into like the modern date of his world. But like, what was from from your perspective, like, what was the challenge you were trying to solve? Was it like, was it the storytelling piece? Or was it just a technical piece of there's got to be a better way or a more efficient way?
00:09:11
Speaker
it's It's both. um you know Newsrooms are a very deadline-driven culture for for obvious reasons, and so you need to build things quickly. and yeah At the same time, like you're you're trying to do things that are engaging. that The whole point is to is to reach people and tell them a story in hopefully a way that they haven't seen before um and be able to to to frame things in a way that is is novel and interesting.
Challenges in Interactive Visualization and Svelte's Role
00:09:39
Speaker
and you know, but when you're trying to to to to solve both of those constraints, like you start hitting the limits of of what you can, what you're physically able to do in a certain amount of time, given the tools that you have. And so we need tools that allow us to move very quickly, um you know, that allow us to build interactive visualizations and and so on that work on mobile devices and and don't like slow to a crawl when when you open them and yeah and things like that. And you know, candidly,
00:10:10
Speaker
when this project started, the tools that were available just just weren't all that all that great for that. There's lots of ways that you can do sort of off the shelf stuff. um You know, lots of kind of pre-baked charting solutions and things like that. But if if you want to do really novel stuff, then you have to be able to use code. And that's where like all of your ambitions of getting stuff done by a particular deadline go go to die, because like as everyone who has wrestled with JavaScript knows, like it's hard. It's really hard to write bug-free software.
00:10:45
Speaker
Right. To that point about graphic libraries, you mentioned ah Django and Backbone all coming out, D3 coming out of, or at least partly coming out of the New York Times. I mean, I think the other one that comes to mind is is Gregor Eich was there for a long time and I don't, you know, with with Data Wrapper. and And I'm curious about your thoughts on Data Wrapper, which I understand is currently using Svelte and SvelteKit. I'm just curious about like,
00:11:09
Speaker
I don't know, your thoughts on that and other toolkits using Svelte in, I don't know, even maybe ways that you hadn't foreseen. I'd be curious about that as well. like are there Are there use cases that you've seen that you're like, oh, that's taking in a new or different direction? the There definitely are. i so ah It's intensely gratifying that the data wrapper ah um have been such enthusiastic supporters of Svelte. And actually they've been very enthusiastic financial contributors to Svelte as well. Like they, you know, they've they've directly helped finance the work. And I'm, I'm particularly proud of that because, you know, Gregor is someone that before I worked to the New York times, like kind of idolized, like part of the pantheon of like yeah the great date of his practitioners. And, um you know, now the company that that he runs is, ah is like
00:12:01
Speaker
very closely and involved with Svelte. And you know he he's obviously a personal friend um because we worked together at at the times. And so like i I love to see that. And I'm biased, but I think they made a great technical choice as well. um And yet, it it it really makes um makes a lot of sense in a context like that because um one of the things the component-based user interface frameworks like Svelte are really good at is um giving you a way to describe the things that are like, so you have this spectrum, right? Between the the things that are very much off the shelf and you have, um, very limited control over, over how things work. And then ah at the, the far extreme, you've got, um,
00:12:48
Speaker
all of the flexibility, but you have to do all of the heavy lifting yourself. yeah and And that's where like intricate D3 based visualizations often sit, like the really impressive set piece stuff, like the stuff that wins awards. And in between, there's kind of this, this no man's land, or at least historically there was this no man's land.
00:13:08
Speaker
um And component-based frameworks kind of give you a structure for doing things that combine the like the reusable drop-in templating stuff with the more bespoke, okay, here are my little interactive ah flourishes and and my my annotations, which are really hard to do if you have a sort of configuration-based or like template-driven approach. And so if you're building a platform like DataRapper, and there are others like evidence dot.dev is a different audience, but like similar kind of idea, um these things ah really lend themselves well to the component-based philosophy that has taken over Word development over the last decade. um and And so yeah, it's it and it makes a lot of sense
00:14:00
Speaker
The more surprising uses I think are, Svelte has turned up on point of sale devices and in Latin America. ah It's turned up on smart TV interfaces and things like that because it has this fairly small footprint and it can work on these lower powered devices.
00:14:19
Speaker
um and you know gives people the ability to write interfaces that are are responsive without having to like drop down and enter the lowest levels of abstraction and yeah and write this sort of very very painful and difficult to maintain code.
The Responsibility of Open-Source Maintenance
00:14:36
Speaker
um So yeah, it it turns up in in all sorts of weird places. Yeah. I'm curious how that feels. So you're in ah newsrooms, you built this tool, presumably you sort of started, I would guess with like inspiration, like I could do my work better and then, you know, it sort of spreads in the newsroom. And now, you know, there are conferences, there are, you know,
00:15:01
Speaker
televisions using it. Like I'm just curious from your personal perspective, like how does that, how does that and success make you feel? Cause it's, I'm also curious because it's not like rich Harris. It's not like people use the rich Harris framework, right? I mean, I'm sure many people know who are deep in involvement. I'm just, I'm curious from your just personal feeling about like, how does it, yeah. Well, how does it feel like to you to have built something that so many people use every day? Extremely weird.
00:15:31
Speaker
it is It is a very strange feeling. And it's something that's that's happened very gradually. Like I mentioned that I've been working on this for eight years. And in the beginning, very much toiling in obscurity. um And for a long time, it was it was being a and a bunch of friends just like hanging out on the internet, making this thing that we thought was cool. yeah And then gradually it sort of ah achieved escape velocity.
00:15:56
Speaker
like it it It broke its containment and started becoming this this thing that um that people who who we had no connection with were using and were writing about, and then suddenly people are building educational material around this stuff. like There are spelt YouTubers and and things like that. um and you know we've we We tried to be active in the community and like understand like who the who the people are, who are using this stuff. But it's at a point now where like we we can't possibly have an actual relationship with all of the people using this software. um And every now and then, we'll just sort of sit back and be like, oh, wow, this this is like this is a thing. like When did that happen? Right. Yeah, it's it's strange. it's it's It is very flattering.
00:16:47
Speaker
um But it comes with a side of like want to say like existential dread because all of a sudden there there's a responsibility. like yeah People have, in many cases, invested um a lot in and using this framework and we need to make sure that the those people are supported that they don't feel like they've, um, they've made it a terrible and and regrettable decision. And in some cases, like people are like, it's, it's, it's literally a significant part of people's livelihoods. Like they're building companies on, on top of this framework. right Um, all that, you know, they're, they're, they're selling, um, training courses and they're doing workshops and stuff. And like it kind of weighs on us. Like you've got to be able to, um, to support that kind of thing. Um,
00:17:37
Speaker
But it, but it also seems like because it's open source, it doesn't, I mean, it clearly doesn't, it's not like a Microsoft product, right? Where I go to your shop and I buy your, I mean, it's open source. So like, do I, and I totally understand what you're saying that there's that level of responsibility of having created it, having brought it into the world, but do you also feel like that responsibility is also shared now by people who, who are using it?
00:18:06
Speaker
Yes, yes and no. um Like some people are are real hardliners ah about this, you you know, um the the idea that the open source is a gift that, you know, i'm i'm not I'm not beholden to my users if I make some some open source software. At the same time, I i don't think that's really a truthful reflection of how it actually works in in the real world. e um you know Just by by virtue of the fact that you have put this thing out into the world and you know I come on podcasts to talk about it and like we've spent a lot of time building a website that articulates the reasons that you you would want to use this over some other thing
00:18:57
Speaker
And when you do that, you're, you're kind of making ah an implied promise to your users that like, this is, this is a thing right we're proposing that you use this thing because we think that it's ah like a better choice than some of the alternatives.
00:19:14
Speaker
And to me, I don't think you can honestly do that without acknowledging that by doing so, you've youre um you have put yourself in a position of of saying, I am committing to some degree right to support you if you choose to use this. yeah You're not just throwing it over the wall and and letting people fend for themselves. And and if if you were, no one would use it. Yeah. Right. So there's that. there's that I guess level of leadership that's sort of required as the original creator of something that people, I would guess to some extent people expect and people and people probably want to some respect too. Yes. I mean, people often imagine that because something is open source, everyone can just just contribute and like but the the maintainers are essentially fungible. Yeah. and that And that is just not how open source works at all.
00:20:08
Speaker
um and reality for a project to have a continued successful life it needs to it needs to operate according to some sort of coherent philosophical worldview like it it needs to be moving in in a particular direction yeah and and the direction is set by the people who are actively contributing to the project and it it can change over time but If you just replace those people, like if you replace the people who have been working with the project for many years with people who like maybe they're very competent developers and maybe they're very well intentioned people, but
00:20:52
Speaker
you know, they bring to it a new set of um ideas and a new set of requirements, then all of a sudden you're not going in a consistent direction anymore. right um and it And it becomes, people aren't going to want to use a piece of software that doesn't have a vision that isn't moving and in a particular direction.
00:21:10
Speaker
yeah um So yeah, I, I understand the, um, the point of view of someone who says, I created this software and I decided to gift it to the world. And, you know, it is, you know, as is here is the MIT license. Um, you know, you can You can refer to that. But beyond that, I owe you nothing. i just I just don't subscribe to that
Simplifying Web Development with Svelte
00:21:34
Speaker
view at all. Yeah. So then on direction, maybe we can talk about Vercel a little bit, but but just ah before we get to that, I'm i'm curious if you...
00:21:42
Speaker
could kind of jack into the to the matrix and could supercharge your your work on Svelte right now. Like, where would you like it to be or where were you where are you kind of directionalizing it over the next year, I mean, weeks, whatever timeframe you're thinking about? Well, the thing that that keeps me motivated to work on this project is that web development is still way too hard.
00:22:10
Speaker
um i I believe that the web is a very important thing and it's kind of under threat. um It's under threat from a lot of different forces. um Not least the fact that you know people who use mobile devices actually don't use the web a whole lot.
00:22:31
Speaker
um people have lost the habit of using the web. And that is like a a pretty perilous situation to be in when the alternative is proprietary app stores and you know closed ecosystems. And so you know I want it to be very easy for people to build stuff on the web. And Svelte is the best way that I can um i can work towards that goal.
00:23:01
Speaker
I also find that most software is is kind of broken on the web and off the web. like A lot of software is just not not particularly reliable. um If you actually pay attention to how many times a day a piece of software doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it's it's pretty incredible. yeah like we have you know This is the the the infrastructure of our lives, and it's it's crumbling more so than than our physical infrastructure.
00:23:28
Speaker
And I think that it should be easier, not just for people without deep technical backgrounds to be able to contribute to the web, but I think people who are building on the web should be able to build reliable bug-free software more easily than they are evidently doing today. And so if if I could like press the fast forward button, you know, five years from now, Svelte would be more accessible to more people. It would be,
00:23:55
Speaker
easier to build reliable and software, whether you're building something like for yourself or you're building something in the context of a news article at you know at a um on a website, or you're building a fully fledged application with a whole team of people building it, um that is the stuff that I think we really need to strike towards.
00:24:28
Speaker
You know, it's interesting ah listening to you talk about the direction because um I think at least my outreach to you was really born out of the database world. And clearly it sounds like that's where this whole project started out of the graphics desks. But when I hear you talk about it now, it it sounds and feels broader than just let's make good, better data visualizations. let's Let's make the web better. Let's make software better. um And I'm curious, was there a point in the lifespan of the project where where you either decided or realized that this that the project is moving beyond making better charts, graphs, interactives, and into something broader or something different? Or is that right from the get-go?
00:25:24
Speaker
um So Svelte was never conceived of as being solely for Dataviz. Dataviz just happens to be, in my view, one of the harder problems that you encounter yeah as as a web developer, which is is sort of ironic. Like a a lot of the people who are working in Dataviz are not programmers first and foremost. Like a lot of people learn JavaScript as a means to an end.
00:25:48
Speaker
Yeah. and And that's, and that's even true. You know, when you, um, when you go to places like the New York times, like the graphics department is is full of like, it's the most absurdly talented group of people that you could meet. But like a lot of these people have come from reporting backgrounds or design backgrounds, not programming backgrounds. yeah Um, and yet.
00:26:09
Speaker
When you're building interactive visualizations, hard word, there's a ton of data that you're dealing with. And and you're you're trying to do 60 frames per second animations. And there's interactivity coming from all different um places. like theres There's things that you tap on. And that like you scroll. and And things will adjust to you know show the next step of of the exploration and all of this stuff.
00:26:34
Speaker
like this i think is a lot harder than building like your typical, like dashboardy CRUD app, whatever. And so Svelte was designed to be the sort of general purpose um web framework.
00:26:57
Speaker
But it was you know designed to be usable by people who are doing pretty hard things on a tight deadline. yeah And that imposes, I think, certain technical and design constraints on on how you go about designing stuff. And you know it's my view that if you can solve that, if you can solve the hard cases, then but you've also solved the easy cases without planning to.
00:27:21
Speaker
Yeah.
Svelte's Evolution and Future Directions
00:27:22
Speaker
um And so over time, like, I don't know, I guess we just noticed that more and more people were using it as a general purpose web development tool. Right. So I'm curious about um what you're doing now. um We got this new gig, I think, last four or five years, something like that.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah, just a little over three years, which is terrifying to think about. High and fly is post pandemic. It absolutely does. Um, so yes, but for the last three years, i've I've been working on this essentially full time. When I was at the New York times, it was kind of a, a side project. I would get some work hours to work on it to the extent that it was beneficial to the, like the, the story that I was working on, um, at that time. Um,
00:28:09
Speaker
But now it is very much a full-time gig. And that's enabled us to move a lot a lot faster. And the main focus right now is not Svelte itself, but the application framework that sits on top of Svelte called SvelteKit. and So Svelte is the is the like the the small like the component um building block type framework. And then SvelteKit is OK, now what? Well, I need to um and need to set up my my build tooling and my dev server, and I need to deploy it somewhere, and I need to have like multiple different pages in my application. Svelte doesn't solve those problems, so SvelteKit is is the layer on top of that. um And so right now, um after spending a lot of time on
00:28:54
Speaker
the new version of Svelte, which was released towards the end of last year, we're now focusing a lot more on the application framework side of things. Um, cause that's where, uh, I think a lot of the, a lot of the difficulty arises when building applications is like, how do you think about getting your data from the server into the browser and then back again? Um, and all those sorts of questions. So, um, yeah, that's our current focus.
00:29:22
Speaker
And when you release a ah new version, like you said at the end of last year, do you, I'm curious again more, not like not so much on the technical side, but on like the personal side, like, is that a moment of dread for you? Is that a moment like, is that a moment of pride? Like you you mentioned earlier, like there's the hardliners, like I'm curious, like when you press that button and it goes out to the world, are you like,
00:29:49
Speaker
holding your breath? like how What is that? And I assume it takes a long time to get to that point where you're releasing an entirely new release. So like what is that moment like? There is a ah lot of breath holding. People don't like change. yeah yeah people right People love progress, but they hate change. yeah right and we're We're very lucky in the the the community of people who use felt, a lot of them and are really engaged in and what we're doing. And so when we release a stable version, that is the culmination of a process that's been going on for you know but potentially a very long time. In the case of our recent Svelte 5 release, we'd been working on it for about 18 months. and And people had been paying very close attention during that time. Some people had even been using the pre-release version in their production applications. And so they had been giving us
00:30:45
Speaker
a lot of feedback that whole time, which like helped us refine the design in a lot of different ways. We we changed a lot of decisions that we've made based on the feedback that we got from people. So by the time we released it, we had like a reasonably good idea of of whether we'd made the right calls on certain things. Yeah. But there's still like this, this big unknown, like ah is like the the great massive developers going to want to this, or are they going to think that we've, we've completely lost our minds? Yeah. I'm happy to say that on the whole, the reaction has been very positive, but it's, it's still always a very fraught time. And also the minute that you release something stable,
00:31:28
Speaker
a lot more people start using it, which means a lot more people start finding bugs and feature requests and and all that sort of thing. so You know, you kind of imagine in the weeks leading up to a big release, like I'm, I'm working 14 hour days yeah and i'm I'm working myself to the bone, but it's okay because we're going to launch it and then we can, we can take a week off take a break and that is exactly not what happens. Like you launch it and then suddenly your workload increases rate somehow. Um, and so it wasn't really until Christmas that I think we were able to just truly breathe out and and take stock.
Getting Started with Svelte
00:32:03
Speaker
Wow.
00:32:04
Speaker
I just want to ah finish up with one last question for folks who are listening to this who may be their programmers, maybe they're not. What would your recommendation be to them if they wanted to at least sort of dabble or think about getting started using Svelte and in any of the things that we've been talking about? Like where would you point someone first?
00:32:27
Speaker
So we've we've tried to make it as um as approachable as possible to the extent that we have this interactive tutorial that will teach you about Svelte the language and and how to use it without you needing to install anything to your computer. So you can just go to svelte dot.dev slash tutorial, and you'll you'll be walked through um all of the different concepts that you need to learn, like one at a time in these very sort of bite-sized manageable chunks.
00:32:55
Speaker
And then at the end of that, if you then want to build a Svelte application, then there is a command line tool um that you can use. At that point, you do need to have some familiarity with you know the terminal. And ideally, you need to be able to use Node.js because like that is what Svelte Kit runs on. um And so at that point, you start to have um slightly higher requirements. But in order to to use Svelte itself and the the playground on our website,
00:33:24
Speaker
You only really need to understand the basics of HTML and CSS, and like the rest of it can sort of come gradually. So that is where I appoint people first, svelte.dev slash tutorial for the easy on-ramp. Terrific. Rich, this has been a lot of
00:33:57
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you learned a lot. I hope you will check out Svelte and all the tutorials, as Rich mentioned, and arrive other resources that you can learn about the tool over there. If you have a moment and can take a second to rate and review this show on your favorite podcast providers platform, I would greatly appreciate it. Just click five stars, even throw a little review if you like it that much. It really does help me find more guests and create better content for you. So until next time, this has been the policy of this podcast. Thanks so much for listening.