Welcome back to the show! This week, I sit down with three co-authors of the Atlas of Macroscopes—Katy Borner, Elizabeth Record, and Todd Theriault from the Cyberinfrastructure for Network Science Center at Indiana University—to explore what a macroscope actually is and how it differs from a standard interactive visualization. We trace the 20-year journey of the Places and Spaces: Mapping Science exhibit, from two-dimensional wall maps to the 40 richly interactive pieces featured in this stunning 11×14-inch MIT Press book. Along the way, we talk about design strategies for making complex systems legible to general audiences, the role of AI in data visualization, and what it takes to grab and hold attention on a museum floor. Each guest shares a personal favorite from the book—ranging from Smelly Maps to an Appalachian opioid overdose tool to a skills-landscape explorer—and we close with a look at the exhibit’s exciting third decade, focused on visualizing intelligences.

Keywords

data visualization, macroscope, atlas of macroscopes, interactive visualization, Katy Borner, Indiana University, Places and Spaces, complex systems, information visualization, scrollytelling, AI and data visualization, opioid epidemic mapping, data communication, science exhibit, data science podcast

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Find the Atlas of Macroscopes [https://amzn.to/3PoaITJ] and explore the Places and Spaces exhibit at scimaps.org. Follow Katy Borner, Elizabeth Record, and Todd Theriault through Indiana University’s CNS Center.

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Email: jon@policyviz.com

Mapping the Invisible: Inside the Atlas of Macroscopes

In this episode, I sat down with Jen Ray and Jason Forrest—the married duo behind Data Vandals—to talk about their remarkable approach to bringing data visualization off the screen and into the physical world. What started as a pandemic-era poster campaign in New York City evolved into street theater, interactive gallery installations, and a Piaggio Ape three-wheeler touring London with opinion surveys. We talked about how they use isotypes, stickers, and hand-painted signs to spark real conversations between strangers about everything from gun violence to foxes to billionaires. We also got into their recent workshops in the Netherlands and Budapest, and their stunning new installation at Los Angeles Union Station about the city’s native wildlife. If you’ve ever wondered whether people will actually stop and engage with data—even on a cold March day in the East Village—this episode will convince you they will.

Keywords: data visualization, data vandals, Jen Ray, Jason Forrest, physical data visualization, data art, community engagement, isotype, street data, data physicalization, data communication, PolicyViz podcast, data storytelling, interactive data, data literacy, public data, data journalism, data design

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Follow Data Vandals on Instagram @datavandals and visit their website at datavandals.com

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Email: jon@policyviz.com

Data Vandals: Taking Data Visualization Off the Screen and Into the Streets

In this episode, I chat with Don Moynihan, professor of public policy at the University of Michigan and author of the widely-read Substack newsletter Can We Still Govern? Don’s research focuses on administrative burdens—the learning, compliance, and psychological costs people experience when interacting with government—and how those frictions shape public trust. We talk about the data challenges involved in measuring these experiences, how the shift to digital services changes the picture, and why governments historically have ignored the costs they impose on the people they serve. We also get into Don’s own journey as a public communicator: how a rejected op-ed about Joe Manchin and the child tax credit sparked his newsletter, what it took to retrain himself to write for a general audience, and how he thinks about balancing timeliness with depth. If you’re a researcher wondering whether public communication is worth the risk—or just curious about what makes government work (or not)—this one is for you.

Keywords

administrative burden, public policy, government services, bureaucracy, policy communication, Substack newsletter, academic writing, public administration, government trust, policy research, data visualization, civic engagement, open government, policy podcast

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Read Don’s newsletter Can We Still Govern? [https://donmoynihan.substack.com/]

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Email: jon@policyviz.com

Why Government Makes Things Hard: Don Moynihan on Administrative Burden

In this week’s episode, I talk with Melanie Tory, Professor of the Practice at Northeastern University, about how people actually use dashboards in the real world — and why that use often looks very different from what designers intend. Her research reveals that dashboards frequently serve as a starting point for accessing data rather than tools for answering questions directly, with many users simply exporting data to Excel to do their real analytical work. We also explore her work on AI-enabled healthcare systems designed to help clinicians monitor patient risk in intensive care units, including how to visualize uncertainty in ways that busy medical teams can process quickly. And we close with a look at her emerging research on how people are beginning to use generative AI tools for data visualization tasks. It's a thought-provoking conversation about the gap between the tools we build and the ways people actually work with data.

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Keywords: data visualization, dashboards, dashboard design, dashboard usability, data analysis workflows, Tableau dashboards, Power BI dashboards, human data interaction, Melanie Tory, data communication, dashboard research, analytics tools, business intelligence dashboards, data storytelling, data workflows, PolicyViz Podcast

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Visit Melanie's webpage at Northeastern University [https://roux.northeastern.edu/people/melanie-tory/]

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

AI, Dashboards, and Human Decisions: A Conversation with Melanie Tory

In this week’s episode of the PolicyViz Podcast, I chat with Michael Gethers, former Head of Data & Strategy for the McLaren IndyCar team, about how a personal side project analyzing IndyCar timing PDFs turned into a job building real-time data tools for a professional race team. We dig into what it’s like to design data products for engineers, strategists, and drivers who need to understand information instantly while a car is on track. Michael shares how he moved from making public visualizations on Twitter to building an internal analytics application from scratch, why “pretty charts” weren’t enough for the engineers, and how user feedback shaped the product. We also talk about race strategy as a probabilistic data science problem, the difference between dashboards and data products, and what he learned about designing for cognition under extreme time pressure. If you care about dashboards, data storytelling, or building tools people truly use, this conversation is a goldmine.

Keywords: data dashboards, data product design, data visualization, motorsports analytics, race strategy, McLaren IndyCar, telemetry data, timing data, data science in sports, user centered design, dashboard design, real time analytics, D3 visualization, data engineering, analytics application

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

From PDFs to Pit Lane: Building a Real-Time Data Product for McLaren Racing

In this episode, I talk with Nick Hart, President and CEO of the Data Foundation, about the rapidly changing landscape of federal data, statistical agencies, and evidence-based policymaking. We explore how the Evidence Act reshaped government data infrastructure, why privacy protections and data governance matter more than ever, and what’s been happening behind the scenes over the last year as agencies faced staffing cuts, data removals, and unprecedented political pressure. Nick explains how government data systems actually work, why the U.S. model is both admired and strained, and what a “Data System 2.0” might look like in the future. We also discuss state and local data roles, the risks of politicizing data, and two public-facing initiatives from the Data Foundation: the Evidence Act Hub and the People’s Data 100. This is a wide-ranging conversation about trust, transparency, and why government data quietly underpins far more of our lives than most people realize.

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Check out the Data Foundation [https://datafoundation.org/] and their People's Data 100 [https://datafoundation.org/pages/the-people-s-data-100] project! 

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

The People’s Data: Why Federal Data Matters More Than Ever with Nick Hart

In this episode, I talk with Amanda Makulec about what it really takes to design dashboards and data products that people can understand and use. We dig into why so many dashboards fail, how designers and analysts often misjudge their audiences, and what it means to take a truly human-centered approach to data visualization. Amanda shares insights from her work leading the Data Visualization Society and from her book, including practical ways to think about context, cognition, and decision-making. We also discuss common misconceptions about dashboards, stakeholder expectations, and the gap between technical correctness and real-world usefulness. This conversation is packed with ideas for anyone building data tools meant to inform decisions, not just look impressive.

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Pick up the new book, Dashboards That Deliver [https://amzn.to/3ZrFNav].

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

Dashboards That Deliver: A Conversation with Amanda Makulec

In this episode, I talk with Denice Ross about the fragile state of federal data and her new work at DataIndex. We discuss how the removal, alteration, or disruption of federal data collections and data products affects research, policymaking, businesses, and everyday life. Denice explains the vision behind DataIndex and EssentialData, which monitor data risks, highlight data dependencies, and help users recognize how federal data benefit society. We also explore the roles of private-sector data, civic tech efforts, and public advocacy in building a more resilient national data infrastructure. It’s a fascinating look at what’s at stake when the country’s information backbone is no longer guaranteed.

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Check out America's Essential Data [https://essentialdata.us/]

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

The Future of America’s Data: Policy, Risk, and Resilience with Denice Ross

In this episode, I’m joined by Cole Nussbaumer Knaflic and Mike Cisneros from Storytelling with Data to talk about their new book, Before & After. We dig into where the examples came from, how they selected and refined real client work, and why the book focuses so heavily on process rather than rules or templates. We also reflect on how the data visualization field has evolved over the past decade—from best practices and chart types to iteration, audience empathy, and real-world constraints. Along the way, we talk about teaching data viz, common pitfalls, and why there’s no such thing as a true “201 course”—only practice.

Keywords: ddata visualization, storytelling with data, data storytelling, before and after charts, visualization process, data communication, chart design, visual analytics, design iteration, audience-focused data, PolicyViz Podcast, Cole Nussbaumer Knaflic, Mike Cisneros

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Grab the new book, Before and After - Practical Makeovers for Powerful Data Stories [https://amzn.to/49OPs0L]

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

Before & After: Inside the New Book from the Storytelling with Data Team

In this episode, I sit down with Bill Rankin, historian of science at Yale and author of Radical Cartography, to unpack what maps really do beyond simply showing data. We talk about why mapping is an act of representation with real consequences, how common techniques like choropleths and cartograms shape what we see—and what we miss—and why there’s no single “correct” way to visualize the world. Bill shares how his background in architecture influences his approach to mapping as drawing and world-making, not coding or dashboards. We also dig into static versus interactive maps, accessibility, and why starting with questions—not tools—leads to better visualizations. It’s a thoughtful conversation about intention, trade-offs, and responsibility in data visualization.

Keywords: PolicyViz Podcast, Bill Rankin, Radical Cartography, data visualization, maps and mapping, cartography, choropleth maps, cartograms, population maps, map projections, visualizing data, representation in data, ethics of data visualization, static maps, interactive maps, storytelling with data

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Grab Bill’s new book, Radical Cartography [https://amzn.to/3Z6mRhi], and check out his website at radicalcartography.net [http://www.radicalcartography.net/].

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Email: jon@policyviz.com [jschwabish@gmail.com]

Radical Cartography: What Maps Show, What They Hide, and Why It Matters

Learn how to be a great data communicator and visualizer with host Jon Schwabish. Hear from experts in the fields of data science, data visualization, and presentation skills to improve how you and your organization collect, analyze, and communicate your data in better, more efficient, and more effective ways.

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