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Flowers and Numbers: Natalia Kisileva’s Journey of Creativity and Community
448 Plays12 hours ago
In this week’s episode, I interview Natalia Kisileva about her transition from engineering to data visualization and her work in data art and physicalization. We discuss her great Substack newsletter “Flowers and Numbers” and how she shifted her focus to data art, fostering community-building efforts, after the pandemic. Natalia emphasizes making data accessible through tangible experiences and highlights the importance of community, particularly in initiatives like a Telegram group for women learning interactive visualizations. Our conversation explores the relationship between physical and digital data art, and Natalia advocates for creative visualizations to engage audiences emotionally and enhance communication. Learn more about Natalia’s work and how you can bring data art and data physicalization into your own work!
Keywords: PolicyVizPodcast, JonSchwabish, NataliaKisileva, EngineeringToDataVisualization, DataArt, Physicalization, FlowersAndNumbers, PandemicShift, CommunityBuilding, TangibleData, DataAccessibility, TelegramGroup, WomenInVisualization, InteractiveVisualizations, PhysicalVsDigital, CreativeVisualizations, EmotionalEngagement, CorporateCommunication, ArtisticDataPresentations, InPersonInteractions, 3DPrinting, TravelInspiredArt, MothersExperiences, StrengthAndBravery, SupportiveCommunity, NewsletterEngagement
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Transcript
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Viz Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the show, we talk about data, we talk about art, we talk about data physicalization. I am excited to have my guest on this week's episode of the show, Natalia Kisileva. If you are on Substack, you should definitely sign up for her newsletter, Flowers and Numbers.
00:00:36
Speaker
where she talks about all of her great amazing work that she's doing and the community that she's building around data art and data physicalization. And I, if you are unaware, have a keen interest in data physicalization. I have been doing a weekly project, well almost weekly project, let's be honest, almost weekly project at work where I create these data physicalizations and people to get to input their own data. They get to have some fun.
00:01:01
Speaker
they get to learn a little bit more about themselves and their colleagues and so Natalia has been doing this work as well and I was really curious to talk to her about her journey into this area how she is building this community around data art and data physicalization and also how she is doing her data art going forward. So you're going to really enjoy this conversation. I think I hope I think you're also going to learn a little bit more about how we can take our data off screen and do some stuff in the physical world.
00:01:32
Speaker
so that we can learn more about the world around us, not always just clicking and typing on our computers, but actually building things. And it doesn't have to be difficult. It can just be marbles and cups and pencils and markers and glue and scissors. So there's a lot of ways to have fun with data, even if it's on serious topics. So I think you're going to enjoy this episode, my conversation with Talia.
00:01:58
Speaker
And here we go. Here's my discussion with Natalia Kisileva on this week's episode of the Policy Biz Podcast. Hi, Natalia. Thanks so much for coming on the show. So good to meet you in person.
00:02:11
Speaker
Thank you. Hello, my name is Natalia. I feel like I i already know you from your sub-stack newsletter because it's like your work is often very kind of personal. So I kind of like feel like I already kind of know you a little bit. um So I'm excited to talk about all the work that you're doing. Maybe we can start you just sort of introducing yourself and letting people know who you are and the and the work that you're doing.
00:02:35
Speaker
Okay, let me tell a little about myself. um I'm an engineer. I was working in automation processing and we're making some big big stuff with energy,
00:02:51
Speaker
ah and know power supply. And the it was like for 15 years I was working with it. And then i my career career maybe begin to, I don't know, rise up. And I began to work with data. I begin to implement some automation inside of company, company you know um reports, data, and stat statistics. And I begin to work with that visualization.
00:03:16
Speaker
And maybe I've seen somewhere well like beautiful tableau visualization. I think like, wow, it's so nice maybe. And I begin to experimenting and... the When I ah dive deeper, it was such an interesting topic for me and I began to teach it. I was so hungry for that visualization books, materials, courses and everything. And I even pivot my career. I like a drop a drop, not drop, okay. I went part-time and ah begin to study more about the visualization and ah
00:03:52
Speaker
I begin to draw comics and found that visualization. Yes, cute characters with funny educational strips. And the maybe at that time, the Data Visualization Society was founded. And it was like a fresh air for me. Like, wow, so many people love data in the charts. And and I wanted to show them my ah ideas, my characters. I wasn't like expert in that visualization at that time. I just was a newbie.
00:04:20
Speaker
but really a hungry newbie and the um somehow I became popular with that little characters with cute pictures. um and Then I begin to create my career around that visualization. I find a new part-time job with dashboards with Power BI. and ah For that moment, I already know how to make dashboards in Tableau, but like more beautiful dashboards like Creative One. But in Power BI, I was ah implemented you know the classical dashboards with TPI cards,
00:04:57
Speaker
with from general to the details etc and i love it too and i don't know so then i begin to train other peoples because ah in my providers career i was a trainer too because i have to train people to work with new software to teach them something And I love it. So I begin to train people to work ah with the tools. And then when i became ah when I became like better and that visualization myself, I begin to teach to train them about that visualization, like in general. Right. And ah then some universities ah call me like, be our trainer, be our coach and our lecture. And I was like, oh, my God, I just have beautiful comics.
00:05:46
Speaker
Not like some PhD. I didn't even have some university degree with that visualization, but I love to teach people and the one and the next university called for me and I love it.
00:06:02
Speaker
They create interesting in materials with some with characters, with the comics, and I love it. to And I think now my career is all about training something related to data visualization about workshops, elections ah for companies or for universities. ah bazin But then I smashed into data art. It was like, yeah oh my God, so wonderful. ah and that was like dr art have you seen these dr art yeah and yes there was a think it was ah twenty twenty first year and endeic tuation covid i was ah pregnant with little kids And I was like, it in the house because it's impossible to...
00:06:51
Speaker
to have something like illness this type when you're pregnant. And I was kind of bored. I already stopped all my jobs. I have three maybe that related jobs at that time. I was stopped like, okay, I'll have a baby, some baby stuff. But then I... with the first months of the baby there are hard times but still there are many little periods of times when you have nothing to do and I begin to and I begin several blocks about that visualization like that the comments block and telling grounds and that art block into the ground with my friend who loved that art too then it was that a job block and now is that a storytelling block I just I just love blogging I think yeah yeah it sounds like yeah yes yes and it was so fun because you know telegram is the platform when where you you could chat there and you could post there like um i don't know like a
00:07:49
Speaker
like one-sided and the two-sided there are different types of communication and this is interesting experience especially for little bloggers and yeah no and no algorithms will cut your audience from you so it's more like newsletter than instagram or facebook or twitter so i have a little audience but it was active and we could chat all together about this interesting topic yes now it's about maybe five thousands in one block half another block yeah yeah you've got a lot you've got a lot going on
00:08:23
Speaker
yes I wanted to ask, so um so you started as an engineer and I'm curious, did you, and that like engineering to comics is a pretty big leap and I'm curious, did you have design or illustration training at any point or is this just like up until that point was just kind of a hobby, like you just liked the draw, you were sort of good at it, like how did you like,
00:08:50
Speaker
That's a big gap to space. Yes, it's like a hobby because when I was a kid, I think, wow, illustrations is so cool, but I was a pragmatic kid. Yes, it's cool, but no money. And I need like a stable profession in the future.
00:09:06
Speaker
yeah So yeah, I finished like a kid art art school for kids, like for middle schoolers, like for years, because I was ah because my friend gone there. And I was like, Oh, my God, I'm so lonely without her. And just I want to. Yes, I'm a company person. Yes, it sounds crazy. people But yes, yeah and I just like comics. as it's I know, especially the strip comics, like the short one with little jobs like ah Punch, the Tales Punch, one, two, three. I think it's cute.
00:09:43
Speaker
Right. So engineering to comics seems like a big leap, but comics to data art seems a little bit more, uh, manageable. So one of the things that you talk a lot about in your sub-stack, uh, flowers and art is, um, trying to build a community around data art. And I'm curious, how do you think about building a community? What does that mean to you? What do you sort of, what are your like?
00:10:08
Speaker
biggest dreams and goals for a data art community. No, it was a winter and I've got the idea to create something about data art because I wanted to chat with someone about data art. I was kind of lonely inside and all my friends was like, oh my God, she's talking about data art. I have to run away. Yes. And you know, in my country, there are several ah data art enthusiasts like me and I knocked on M and hello, do you want to have a little ah chat with me like video stream about data art? We just talk about it together, show each other a beautiful projects and then post it on YouTube.
00:10:52
Speaker
That's all. And it was so cool. I loved it so much. Then some people, it wasn't a big broadcast, maybe 15 or 20 percent. And me and my colleague were the hosts.
00:11:06
Speaker
We just chatted with each other and showed the presentation with Georgia Loop, this project, Federica Fragapanis, you know them. They were on the podcast, yes. And the just discussed the idea of data art and how we want to create more. Then in the comments of this video and in the chat, in this video,
00:11:28
Speaker
there are more person arrived who are in data art too. They even teach someone about that art in my country. I was like, oh my God, let's discuss something too. And then I begin to grab one person and another. It's about maybe six or seven videos already. And we talked about that art and not just that art in general, but some specific sphere like material data art data art.
00:11:58
Speaker
interactive data art, I don't remember, musical one, that art and sound um was complicated. And here, generative art and data art, like, is it the same or maybe not? It was really difficult. Right. Yes. And then I understand there are many people who are inter-topic and I read the article about DataGarden, the community of women who are teach each other ah how to create interactive data visualization, beautiful data arts with P5.js. Like for women to
00:12:35
Speaker
to help them with programming to upgrade their career etc and I was like oh my it's so cool and I just wrote in my telegram channel oh it will be so cool to create something like this but about data art and I post the link to the group which I created it was in in the middle of night and I was like okay and in the morning there was a group with 40 persons, and I didn't know what to do with them because they came to me like, okay, ah let's play in the data art. And I was silent for for a week, but then I began to bring them educational materials about data art, examples, some ideas, some um practical tips. And the
00:13:23
Speaker
I recommend them to create their own data arts ah like, you know, that a beach. I love that a beach idea when you get some simple data from several people and create one a little beach for.
00:13:36
Speaker
every one of them, like the data pages, like the data pages, I think, in in that visualization sphere, we know them, we love them. And, the you know, a there are persons really decent from that art, because I grab them from the illustrator's chats.
00:13:54
Speaker
yeah It was like data, data visualization, but it was so interesting. there They were good at drawing, at illustrating, and they create really beautiful badges, like with bags, with flowers. So they invent their um creativity, ability, creativity in this data idea, because the data was really simple. They don't need to understand it like,
00:14:21
Speaker
not complicated table, only yeah four digits for each person. like There is the list of skills, like your data skill from one to three, your art skill, your handicraft skill, and your data skill, like where the art is, so we relate these four. And so we have several, I could show you. We have video, so I showed video part. Can you see it? It's several different designers create their design designs for their databases.
00:14:49
Speaker
And then there's more people, more designs, and still we have like ah our logo. Right. right yeah It's interesting to hear you talk about data art, because I think oftentimes when I think about it or when I see it, it often, it often feels very. tangible to me, right? It's, I mean, you're wearing the bracelet of the of the bead bracelet you did on climate stripes, right? Like, um you know, data sculpture. And so, but the way that you're you're talking about it is really interesting because it's a little bit of physical art, but it's also a lot of digital
00:15:26
Speaker
art a lot of coding And so I was going to ask you about how you think about physical data art when you're trying to build a sort of international community because I can't like hold the stickers or the bracelet that you have right now but if you were to build something online like obviously I can play around with that so I guess I'm curious about how you think about sort of this.
00:15:47
Speaker
I don't know, I guess that the sort of interaction between the tangible in the real world versus the digital that's kind of online. Oh my God. I forgot to mention one thing. Oh, okay. Yes, why I begin to ah begin with video stream story about that art because I begin to collect all worldwide that art project oh I just begin to, because I have a Telegram channel about DataArts, and I have collected these projects there for years. And then I put them into the notion, ah add some text, classifications, and begin to study it like, okay, I filter only interactive DataArts.
00:16:28
Speaker
Okay, I feel that art is created in tableau, or maybe made by hand, or maybe handicrafted. And because there are so many different ah types of that art, it's really, it's easy to begin creating that art with your pencil with your, I don't know, some handicraft skills.
00:16:47
Speaker
But of course, the top, or I don't know, maybe the more complicated data art is is about big data, about some interactive elements when you could touch something and it will become flowers after you're under-touching, or maybe, you know, physical cube of Kirill Bensi. It's just something already so difficult, so yeah interesting, like a million dots. So it's like the height.
00:17:13
Speaker
so It's really something ah complicating, okay. So I think the chart is really a variety from simple one to a difficult one and it's okay. We have many types. Yeah, it's such an interesting field because it branches out into so many different ways that we sort of think about and work with data. And I and i wanted to ask now that you sort of have kind of different ways in which you work and communicate with data. You've got sort of the dashboarding, Tableau, Power BI world. You've got ah data art, you've got the data comics. When you work with your students or you work with clients or you work with businesses, like how do you talk to them about
00:17:56
Speaker
using one or multiple different ways to communicate their data. Cause I would guess that, you know, most business clients who are going to come to you are going to say, Hey, we want a Tableau dashboard, right? And, but I can imagine you coming back and saying, well, we could do this, like, I don't know mural or badges or necklaces or yeah, or flowers are like, so, so how do you talk to clients or, or talk to students about these different ways of, of communicating their data?
00:18:24
Speaker
Okay, I think there are really different types of audience, of course. And one type of audience understand only simple dot visualization charts. Even dashboards will be too much for them. So maybe I think the data storytelling, like the simple one with highlighting, with clutter removing is really best fit for this type of audience. And I'm trying to speak ah with them about it. But if I see that audience is already you know, hungry for something new. Already, oh, dashboard. It's so boring. We have them enough. And then in I could show them something interesting. ah One big company invited me to like a guest from the future to to to tell them about something new about visualization. And then I talked to them about data art. And they were really good feedback. back They were happy and their eyes were like sparkling.
00:19:17
Speaker
Because I show so many brilliant examples. Of course, the business is really interesting. And what about money? How could we make money from data art? yeah It's hard. But there are many like no ah big projects, data art with ah big great clients. Or when some design company creates something, data art ish design for someone. OK, we have these cases.
00:19:44
Speaker
And Elsa, second election is near this, was about I was trying to show the idea of databases for HR people.
00:19:55
Speaker
Like, hey, you need to communicate with your people. You need to communicate about your company outside. Think about data. How could you make it? Maybe not charge, maybe not touch birth, maybe something more creative. Because creative data are the power of data art, not about specific details, not about, oh my God, I've got the our fact and plan financial. It's about emotions. It's about touching, about involving people inside. like ah to grab their attention and now in model life when everyone in their mobile is like okay sorry bye bye charts thank you and the something beautiful you could show in something that drops their attention and then you could show in something useful he i think it's great part ah for this task
00:20:42
Speaker
we couldn't ah replace dashboard with data art elements. And I had a joke, you know, the projects like that, acc occuring when you create a little chocolate boxes with data inside yeah notes or something, it couldn't replace like, za year report for your boss. It's really interesting um for some communication events, for data events, for corporate events, for team building events, when person could really feel that as person is a part of company, and their data is a part of company. And I think it's really touching. No, I was really loyal.
00:21:25
Speaker
employer for 15 years and it was important for me like something to be a part of and if that the art was there I think it will be really great because the boring ah some you know boring flowers about our principles of our company our guidelines it's so boring and no one want to read it Right, oh right. ah so play it Yeah, I mean it's a very interesting way to think about how to engage people, especially in person, which we're sort of now getting back to finally after the pandemic. It's just a really interesting way. the The other thing though that I wanted to ask you about was
00:22:05
Speaker
along this line is whether you find that people don't take the data art world seriously and whether they sort of, you know, dismiss it as sort of, you know, whatever. I mean, I interviewed um for the show years ago, I interviewed Edward Tufti and he sort of shot down data art as like, I mean, I think he said something like it's not serious, it's not good art, it's not good data, which is like just not, you know, it wasn't true then and it's not true now, but I am curious how you find people sort of view data art as, you know, sort of in that line of like, is it serious data or is it just sort of like, kitschy fun? It's it's really a complex question. Yeah. No, I think in the modern world, we need to search for new ways to communicate with data because there are too much data, too many charts. It's just impossible to
00:23:02
Speaker
ah If before it was troubles to work with tables, now it's troubles to work with charts and with dashboards because there are too many dashboards. And I think we need to experiment with data. We need to find the and always seek for new ways with data, especially not in education. I know you've tried this wonderful method when you... are in you show your students something like turn off faces and it's it's a part of that art, it's databases inside it yeah and the how they use it, they understand it. It's something simple, something maybe closer with material that the art with the primitive one.
00:23:43
Speaker
on one part, but on another. It's something maybe that helps people to feel the beautiful and creative part when, you know, the data people, the they see it all day on their chairs. They watch the tables, boring tables all day. Of course, there are many like, wow, I love data. I'll sit here till night.
00:24:05
Speaker
but also people are so tired of it. Yes, it's good job. Yes, I have nice wage, but I'm boring with it. I want a little creative, something um creative element in this job. And, you know, when you in your tableau dashboard could create at home something beautiful using your skills, your working skills, I think it's like a great, I don't know, ah something nice for the soul, for the life, some light in the life. Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
Maybe that's why that people love comics the same way because it's something fun, something bright, something little cute person. Oh my God, it's like me. Some personalization because especially because now that visualization is like more cooperative work. Standardization everywhere. We need this fresh air. Yeah, I think that's right. I think it is about fresh air. I think it also in a lot of ways sort of like you know, most of us when we were kids like, you know, we cut, you know, ah construction paper and we glued stuff together when we taped stuff together and we, you know, drew with colored pencils and crayons and markers and so it kind of brings you back a little bit to that.
00:25:19
Speaker
um that childlike, almost that childlike wonderment and now layering then this sort of adult perspective on data, which is but is kind of an interesting way to think about our day-to-day jobs. Like you said, getting off the computer for a little bit is maybe not the worst thing in the world. yes So you've got the telegram, you've got your sub-stack, you've got a LinkedIn, you've got all the socials, of course. um What else are you working on these days?
00:25:50
Speaker
I'm working on several data art projects. The material one about my travels, you maybe could see that's the little rings. Rings with beads is so problematic, but it's already maybe two years, like I'm creating it because I wanted to, it was on the paper on the paper once the first iteration. And I was like, it looks plain, but it looks like ah something that I could bring in material world. and the I find where I could 3D printing it. And then there are many bits from this story. And why not? And I begin to work with little elements, like it's for several months already. I wanted to finish it before the snow.
00:26:36
Speaker
but now i'm not so sure because i wanted to photo it you know near the sea like beautiful sounds this summer you just have to you just have to find a good snow bank a snow you know like a field of white powder yeah it'll be yeah yeah yeah Let's see, so I love data art projects and I'm trying to create one once in a while. I'm experimenting with different type of techniques. Material one, digital one, interactive, static. I even draw like, you know, data rabbits. It was my experiment, okay.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah, yes. And also I'm collecting data about like mothers and their rounds because I'm the mother and we discuss with my friends that ah ah sometimes in several in several countries mothers don't got the respect of society. Sometimes there was like people showing on them like oh my god your kids are so You know, and yeah, do yeah, I know. yeah yeah i know yeah planes But you know, for women in first year, first three years, just like, Oh my God, I need to survive. Help me. What do you want from me? It's like, it's really hard. And many have problems with their health. You know, they have cuts, medications, operation, and I won't talk and eat.
00:27:59
Speaker
the project of my friends was about medals for months, medals for operation, medals for first, medals for second, kids for third. And and was I was thinking like, oh my god, great idea. And I begin a poll, sorry, and I begin to collect data from all my telegram channels, like, please share this poll.
00:28:20
Speaker
And the women begin to write about themselves. as There is a poll about different types of problems women had after giving a birth. And the I have a nice good data set for now. Many ah leave their their texts and their data.
00:28:38
Speaker
And I want to create something some data art projects on it about, not like some sad story like, oh my God, it's so bad, but more like, we're brave, we we're strong, and take it, and we have many medals for this, for that. And I want to, I don't know, to motivate those moms who don't have power, who are so helpless in this period of life. And I think this one, this project will be next for now, after I'll finish this one. I have many projects in parallel and it's impossible though. That one sounds like you have, you' you've collected like data from other people, not just yourself. Yes. Yes. I mean, that's, I mean, that's really interesting, right? To, to, cause there's sort of like a lot of your projects seem to be your personal experience, your personal data, but, but, but this one that you're working, that you're starting, it seems like you've collected the data, which is interesting in its own right, but you've collected the data and then how to translate that into data art, which is a mess like,
00:29:35
Speaker
yeah It began from a database's story, because i maybe you remember the Kimli Scott's projects about moms who with, there was little cute beach for mothers about, and they have a little cute round thing with flowers inside and some symbols to encode children's, their personality of the women and the city, or maybe is the place where she burned.
00:30:01
Speaker
And I have a little community of mothers and I was like, I'll train on something like this, on this simple idea because I wasn't a professional yet. And I wanted to experiment with it. And there was a 20 or 25 person and I create a Google form for them and grab the data and made it even in Figma.
00:30:23
Speaker
i even don't make it interactive. I just experiment with it. I use part of Kim Lee Scott projects, part of your design because I'm not designer. I'm bad with colors. I don't understand the idea and I love the black and white comics because like A good one with a brush, with a pencil, just something like Dirty dirty Comics. They are beautiful colors because I just but't don't know how to make them. Sometimes I got the prairie pellets and used it. And everyone said, wow, you have so beautiful colors here. You're a designer.
00:31:02
Speaker
No. Yes. And that's why, ah and that was my first attempt to create something like that. And later I was like, hmm, it's so much fun. Then was flowers and numbers community. yeah We created a database to another person.
00:31:18
Speaker
it's We made the survey two, it's the same idea. Google form, Google sheet, and then everyone could check the data and create automatically or maybe with code, with Adobe Illustrator, maybe with with their hands, everyone create differently.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, someone just, you know, creating something. Oh, wow. well yeah Waiting for this. You know, yeah one guang girl just created several ah data art dolls. Wow. Yes, it's such a such a wonderful project. And the other one from our community creates many data art flowers from paper. There was some tragedy several years ago in Russia. Wow. and she feel emotion about it and she wanted to create something for the for the year or day.
00:32:05
Speaker
And the it was something great. And i I'm like, ah this is my community. It's already 300 persons there. yes and we have I'm sending them cards for different yeah right countries. like It's for Bulgaria, it's for Serbia. for yeah That's great. ah One was for Afghanistan, but we lost it somewhere. I need to resend it.
00:32:32
Speaker
and that ah I want to blab about my community and that's why I need flowers and numbers newsletter to tell everyone about data art and to involve people. You ask about how we see the community. I think that we could share with each other the ideas of data art to help each other to finish them. So I don't know. Just to be there for each other. Yeah.
00:33:01
Speaker
Well, on that, on that note, um, I want to finish up. Um, so where can people find you? You just mentioned the sub stack newsletter. So flowers and art. So where else can they, yes, flowers and numbers. Yep. So where else, where else can they connect with you? LinkedIn. Uh, I have, uh, Kiseleova, Natalia, LA, LA. It's my Nick. You could Google me with this. Okay. hope so Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:28
Speaker
And then the other link for my website, for my
00:33:52
Speaker
I'm so glad to chat with someone about art. We need to create more that art projects. All right. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Have a nice day, everyone.
00:34:06
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that episode of the show. If you will take just one moment of your day to do a couple of things, that would be great. A, sign up for Natalia's Substack newsletter, flowers and numbers. I promise you're going to enjoy it. Number two, sign up for my PolicyViz newsletter, also on Substack. You can go right there and sign up for both of ours in two quick clicks and you're all set. And number three, if you can spare a moment to rate or review this show on your favorite podcast providers platform, I would appreciate it. Always helps me know that this work is worth doing and helps me find other great guests to bring to you on the policy of his podcast. So until next time, thanks so much for listening. This has been the policy of his podcast.