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TUNIC
14 Plays11 days ago
Join Dave and Jake as they trade sticks for swords and hold their cloaks tight against the Eyes of the Far Shore in this week's episode!
FULL SPOILERS: TUNIC
Intro:
- TUNIC - Forget to Forget
Outro:
- TUNIC - Soapstone Visions
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Transcript
Introduction and Greetings
00:00:37
Speaker
How's it going everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake. I am joined by my co-host as always Dave. How's it going today Dave? It's going good.
00:00:48
Speaker
The weather's been pretty peachy. And that's really my only qualification. It's good. It's all need. Good. Weather's good. Life is good. I think so.
00:00:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it matters terrible. I'm going to end. Cut this.
00:01:10
Speaker
Better clear up out there. Yeah. ah Well, hopefully on the macro sense, things are always going are going well there, but um it is nice. Very warm outside.
00:01:22
Speaker
Got my energy drink here.
First Impressions of Tunic
00:01:23
Speaker
I'm here to talk about a video game with my good friend Dave. What video game do you want to talk about today, Dave? I just want to clarify. We're OK friends. Yeah, we're coworkers. We're OK. Yeah.
00:01:35
Speaker
Co-host.
00:01:39
Speaker
I'll host your go. Yeah, this is something that has been, i want to say in the work for a long time, like it was actively being worked on and sought after. It's just I remember a long time ago when they had like a simple trailer for Tunic and then they slowly had more updates and then finally came out.
00:02:00
Speaker
And I'm like, hey, really like this game. Anybody else can check out this game? And fucking nobody. I mean, people people did ultimately play it, but they weren't.
00:02:11
Speaker
I would say that they weren't following it as zealously as you were, because I do recall... you know, when this game was announced, your interest picked up on that. And it's like when we were talking about, you know, the upcoming games for the year, you're like, Tunic is right here, guys. like It's right here.
00:02:28
Speaker
Like zero in on this. um I'm like, it's probably gonna be fine. You know, it's that's right. um But you you definitely were the first one I know that was on the Tunic band bandwagon.
00:02:41
Speaker
Thank you, YouTube recommendations. yeah My finger's not in the pulse by any means. It's just a video I saw. i was like, oh, neat. ahha um But this seemed like it was up your alley. What about the initial presentation of Tunic drew you in?
Art and Music of Tunic
00:02:57
Speaker
So if you go back, like the graphics look a little bit different, um but it was an isometric 3D Zelda like, at least at first glance.
00:03:09
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, it it looks like a fucking vibe. um Right. I'm sure I've mentioned I've been enjoying the Zelda remakes that have been done in like that kind of 3D toy style.
00:03:21
Speaker
Right. Remakes of the older Zelda games and. While it's not going to be a this is the best fucking game I ever played. It is nice to have a kind of simple, straightforward RPG experience.
00:03:37
Speaker
Is that what this was? um No. Yeah. um But that's kind of what initially drew me in was kind of just how it looked and how I assumed it was going to play. Right. Right.
Gameplay and RPG Elements
00:03:53
Speaker
Like that's fair. And that was definitely the vibe I got when I started playing it too. I was like, this is, it's very Link's Awakening-esque in a lot of how this is presented using that kind of like, I don't know if it's literally tilt shift or just isometric, but it's very tilt shift-esque.
00:04:11
Speaker
um with that perspective. um But yeah, definitely evokes a lot of um really classic Zelda. I'm not talking like the new ones necessarily.
00:04:23
Speaker
It has a lot less in common with like a Breath of the Wild um and Tears the Kingdom. um I think people would probably agree with that. ah But you like go back to like Zelda one and it's like, hey, I went into a cave and I found a sword like this is that game.
00:04:40
Speaker
Um, and at least how it is initially portrayed. Yeah, I think it's good ah doing it that way because that becomes your, your expectation of, ah, it's a little hero's journey thing. I'm going to explore, beat stuff up.
00:04:56
Speaker
Um,
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah. then And then the Fire Nation. Yeah. Yeah. It does go off the rails. And, you know, we'll talk full spoilers, all that stuff. It'll be in the description, too, if you auto-played to this. But...
00:05:13
Speaker
um before getting into everything that goes on in the story, um how do you feel about like the other
Manual and Exploration Mechanics
00:05:21
Speaker
aspects about this? Like and we talked a little bit about the art style. I think that's kind of straightforward and enough. It's like clean indie, um, looks like it it's, it's, it would be a remake of like a game boy advanced type game.
00:05:35
Speaker
Um, But ah the other the other aspect that really stood out to me was the music. like The music for Tunic is just like really, really good. and Really good. and Yeah?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah. like ah you you I was hoping that would be the handoff for you to say something about your impressions of the music. But it's really good. um There were multiple times I was playing the game and I was like,
00:06:02
Speaker
I haven't heard this track before and I'm a little concerned like if I leave this area, it's just going to go away. But it sounds super nice. And they they do the quickest way to just get free points for me. if ah If I'm a game reviewer or something like that is to layer the track.
00:06:20
Speaker
And there were times in the game where you can like, well, almost all the time, I guess you can pray. and We can talk about that what that does later. But like when you pray, it layers notes into whatever song is playing.
00:06:34
Speaker
And that's so cool. I love that. Like music composition as part of the game design choice. Yeah, i I was going to say, as far as the music's concerned, I i enjoyed it.
00:06:48
Speaker
um But I think it fits really well, like um environmentally. Exactly. Where I'm going to be and like what's happening. But going back and listening to it as a standalone thing, which I did earlier today. hmm.
00:07:02
Speaker
There's like nothing. I'm like, oh, this one's a banger. It's just it fit all of those combats or exploration situations so well where it it set the tone. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's a fair way to put it and I would agree that it's like If you're going back to listen to this it's because it's like oh this is your studying music or something like that, right?
00:07:24
Speaker
It's like this is gonna I mean I say this with full respect like In a lot of cases, it would be similar to going back to listen to the Hollow Knight OST. It's like, this is just really good background music. I'm not listening to this because of the lyrics, because there are none, right?
00:07:40
Speaker
um But very good for focusing on that. and um And they also do the thing where it's like, if you have the manual up, it will like fade the music into the back.
00:07:51
Speaker
oh Yeah, I love a little touch like that or like if you in some games if you go underwater Mm-hmm the music becomes damp and just more day I play a little slower. Yeah No, it's really cool. I appreciate the sound design for the game a lot um Trying to think what else what other what element of the gameplay would you want to cover next?
00:08:16
Speaker
So I think a big component, and it could be divisive for some people depending on how they like to approach games, is the manual itself. Okay, yeah. So when you start out in the game, the game doesn't tell you shit.
00:08:29
Speaker
No. You can just go around and you explore. um You'll find these roadblocks and try and get around them, get further. And slowly you will collect these pieces of a game manual for Tunic ah that will kind of give you some tips and hints, ah certain things you have to infer ah because everything's written in a different language. Yes.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah. Which you do not know. um You could theoretically decipher it, ah but usually there's enough kind of loose context clues and pictures to be able to be like, oh, I think this is going to kind of lead me in the right direction.
00:09:05
Speaker
Right.
00:09:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's a combination of both. Sometimes it tells you the information you need to know, but it's like other times it's just an icon and it kind of makes you ask questions about what it means.
00:09:20
Speaker
And they do that in equal measure. Yeah, it's... I'm a big fan of it because I think the way that they lay out the pieces for when you have access to them.
00:09:32
Speaker
um It's usually before you're going to go into that next area like, hey, here's a map for this thing you haven't quite discovered yet. Right. You're like, well, I'll save that for later. And then two seconds later, oh, my God, I can use the map.
00:09:46
Speaker
Right and like the map is like for the area maps. They are functional There's not that many areas in the game. I think there's like what like seven distinct something like that six or seven um The game's actually like fairly small and we can talk about that too, but the the maps I like that they're interactive and Like, um it's not like an overhead map like some games would do.
00:10:11
Speaker
um But whenever you pick it up, you have like, a oh, your character is here. the um The character is the ruin seeker. um Your character is right here. And here are some other points of interest and things you might want to check out around where you're at.
00:10:25
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily point out where secrets are. um And I, one of the few things I personally didn't jive with was, uh, I don't like hidden walls and hidden paths and things like that, where
Hidden Paths and Game Design
00:10:41
Speaker
it's like,
00:10:43
Speaker
All right. We've established that there are now hidden passages that you could access at any point. Would you like to face check everything to make sure you don't miss any? ah So this circles back to something we've talked about in the past.
00:10:57
Speaker
Ash Lake being behind two invisible walls. Mm hmm. I assume that you are not a fan of that design as well. yeah I mean, so the difference I think for for the Ash Lake example and Dark Souls is there's almost always going to be a message telling you to check it out unless you're playing offline. But if you're playing offline and I like a Dark Souls game, like your experience is very different and you largely are conceding that there's a ton of stuff you're going to miss because you can't rely on the community to tell you about it.
00:11:30
Speaker
I don't necessarily think that's bad gameplay design. Maybe it's slightly anti-consumer sort of in a way. Like if you go play and play, but go back and play Bloodborne solo, you're going to experience not all of the content because you'll miss things.
00:11:46
Speaker
But like for Tunic, there's not going to be a message on the ground telling you, Hey, illusory wall ahead or hidden path or something like that.
00:11:57
Speaker
Um, And to be fair to the game, whenever they have these sort of like hidden paths, for the most part, it doesn't relate to anything that you need.
00:12:08
Speaker
the The main path is always visible to my recollection. um A lot of times it just ends in like a chest that has some extra money in it or something like that. It's like, there you go. Thumbs up.
00:12:19
Speaker
You're paying attention. Yeah, it's. I'm not hard disagreeing with what you're saying, but I think from like a game design perspective, I think they kind of like scatter some things about to be like, hey, this is at this fixed view.
00:12:36
Speaker
um i think you can use L2 to ill change your camera a little. but I think it just pans it. It's like the lock on button. Yeah. Also. Yeah. And.
00:12:48
Speaker
Like there's so many things are quote unquote like hidden in plain sight. Like, for example, ah early on, there's a windmill. If you go inside the windmill, there's like a shopkeeper.
00:13:00
Speaker
But you can go behind the windmill and there's literally a path. Right. And then that connects you to somewhere else. Right. But you would kind of have to explore it a little bit or be like, oh, I don't see a hard edge here. Is this something I can go check out?
00:13:14
Speaker
Or exploring behind waterfalls, stuff like that. um Which I feel like if you played a video game, you're like, I'm going to double check. yeah Double check.
00:13:26
Speaker
But i I personally enjoy that aspect of exploring and finding stuff. Mm hmm. i think a I think it also plays into like an overall motif of the game, which is hiding things in plain sight.
00:13:43
Speaker
um like There's a lot of content where it's like, okay, now that you've reached this point in the game, um we just revealed something to you. like In this case, like the Holy Cross. right It's like, okay, well, you could have been using this.
00:14:00
Speaker
since the start of the game and speed runners would definitely use this in order to get access to tools really, really early. um that otherwise, if they were to play through the traditional kind of like first play through experience, they might not get a sword until far later. Right. Yeah.
00:14:19
Speaker
But it's kind of the thing with like dark souls where, I feel a lot of the game or your skill at the game is going to be based on knowledge more so than actual mechanics skill. Mm hmm.
00:14:33
Speaker
ah Just because like something like you using the Holy Cross to get to an item earlier or praying before the game is technically told you how to do that.
00:14:44
Speaker
So like on subsequent playthroughs, you're like, oh, don't need to go do this jazz. Yeah. And you can kind of take your own speed run approach to it. Yeah.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I think that's I think that's fine. Right. Like, um, i I was more critical of it when I was playing through it, but I've spent some time thinking about the game since, like, ah at least going through and seeing the credits.
00:15:10
Speaker
I'm not talking about the endings yet, but I at least saw credits. And... and i'm I've mellowed out a little bit. It was a little bit frustrating for me at the time because I guess I didn't know while I was playing the game that hidden paths are pretty much entirely for optional things.
00:15:30
Speaker
um And I don't need to focus on them. And if I happen to be like, they they'll do something where like the shortcut, right? Like the way Dark Souls would do a shortcut is there's a door in front of you to go to open it. And it says the door does not open from this side, right?
00:15:45
Speaker
um The way that Tunic does a shortcut is there's a path that's just hidden by your perspective. So you can't see it in the terrain and you get through the entire area and then you find a path that leads back to the entrance. And it was always there.
00:16:02
Speaker
Right. You just couldn't see the path because it was hidden by the terrain or is a barely visible ladder or something like that. Um, and at first I was like, ah, don't like this because maybe I'm missing things that really matter.
00:16:17
Speaker
But now that I know with the meta knowledge that I wasn't missing anything that mattered, um, It doesn't bother me as much, but you could see how it could bother some people in like a first playthrough.
00:16:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah, for sure. But bye again, I think taking that game design angle ah before, I think it kind of encourages exploration because there are so many things hidden in plain sight where certain people are completionist and like they want to go through an area and they're like, I see this item.
00:16:48
Speaker
I want to get that item. I can't currently get that item. I'm going come back here when I have new tools at my disposal. Right. Or figuring out an icon on the map. you're Like, oh, that's what that is.
00:17:00
Speaker
Where else have I seen that before? um So it kind of encourages you to like go back and explore through um to find either money upgrades or if you're just enjoying the gameplay and to explore around a bit.
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of, i think the way I would describe it is like they subvert the manual entirely, right? Because you described like using intuition to basically mean like, oh, I found this icon one place, which means that, okay, now that I know what that is, and and like the hero's grave, for instance, right?
00:17:34
Speaker
You're like, okay, now that I know what that icon means, I know that anywhere else I see that icon on a map, that's another entrance to the hero's grave. Um, that's like an intuition based, uh, like something you figured out using that tool.
00:17:48
Speaker
And in some ways that subverts an actual manual, right?
Dual Player Paths
00:17:51
Speaker
Cause the purpose of a manual is to just tell you things. Um, it's like the Prima strategy guide is to just spoil things in the game.
00:18:01
Speaker
um But they just give you a strategy guide that's all questions almost. And I think that there are two players for Tunerk.
00:18:12
Speaker
They're the people who like play the video game for the adventuring experience. um And like this sort of like Zelda Metroidvania ask sort of finding tools solving puzzles.
00:18:24
Speaker
um But in much more like ah the bomb blows up the weak wall. The fire arrow destroys the ah vines or whatever. Spider web. Yeah. Spider web in this case. Yeah. um And then there are the people who are like trying to figure out what all of it means.
00:18:41
Speaker
And this game has two paths, literally also for these two players. But if you are just the adventurer player,
00:18:55
Speaker
um you you you can't completely avoid being a little bit tainted by the Knowledge Seeker player path. And if you're just the Knowledge Seeker player path, you kind of can't avoid being tainted by the adventurer path. I'm saying like combat and other things you can't really avoid.
00:19:14
Speaker
But there are accessibility settings that let you basically play the game however you want. um So I think if if the experience goes as um'm going to loosely say intended question mark.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah. um That pretty much everybody should be starting out with the adventuring mindset. And then as you keep uncovering more things, you might become more of that knowledge seeker type yeah where you're again wanting to go back to an area or seek something out or an alternate path or.
00:19:52
Speaker
Trying to decipher the manual to be like there is Lauren here. There's other information. I don't know what this information means yet. Yeah, I know what that icon is Because the manual is actually just full of spoilers like it's all in the language of tunic But it is actually one-to-one decipherable um to English And that's crazy. Like, that's actually crazy.
00:20:21
Speaker
I think it's a cool thing because, like, at face value, I think everybody's going to be like, that's another language. that's That's all bad from Final Fantasy X. And you might be thinking to yourself, hopefully, you know, they'll explain that language to me later.
00:20:37
Speaker
No, they will not. um But ah the key thing is you do not have to understand the language to get by in the game there's so much in the way of like pictorial representation where the idea will get across to you if it is necessary right um certain other things might be a little less super direct and obvious um but those things are more so designed for exploration yeah yeah for the uh the truth seeker path
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, and they're like there are people who see that and again, they enjoy the the art of the hunt and they want to translate it. Right. More power to you. You can do that.
00:21:23
Speaker
I think there's enough things where you can infer what the word is going to be. Or if you explore a new area and it comes up with the text below hand, you're like, huh?
00:21:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So you can piece it together. The game does go full ARG basically for, for the people who are trying to solve. It's called the golden path in the game.
00:21:48
Speaker
Um, like literally visiting other websites and analyzing audio spectrograph. Wait, like ah so to figure out all of it,
00:22:00
Speaker
Maybe this isn't necessary to see the other ending, but there was an ARG attached to this game, at least at some point. um And so for the people who wanted all of the answers, it was visiting another website, downloading an MP3, looking at the waveform, um all of that nonsense that people love to do for ARGs. Yeah.
00:22:19
Speaker
And it fits into the like nature of puzzle solving. That is very much encouraged. Um, if you're doing the golden path, like in the game itself, though, it's not required for the golden path itself, I guess.
00:22:34
Speaker
Um, Yeah. And for me, like that's that that ain't it chief. Like basically once you start to get into ARG or translation, different like translation difficulty, I'm i'm good. and I don't need that.
00:22:49
Speaker
um I will appreciate other people's efforts. I think I only got to like toe dip status because I've now technically played the game twice and like I will try and do eric some exploration and optional things.
00:23:04
Speaker
Mm hmm. Also, by the way, I found it out this play through not the previous one back when it initially came out. So after there's a world event change.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah, the terrain changes and you're like, oh, well, I can't get back to those things. Mm hmm. Unless. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you literally can. I think you have to go sleep in the bed or something.
00:23:30
Speaker
Yeah, you have to get all the ah you have to become corporeal again. OK. First, and then you can sleep in the bed. Yeah. Yeah, that was a nice little ah thing to find. Yeah. it has a lot of It has a lot of thought to it to make sure that you can't like progress block yourself, progress too far, and then just not reach other secrets and things like that because you got too far in the game.
00:23:53
Speaker
You can be like right up against the ability to end the game and still unlock or find anything that remains. Which is good. I'm all I'm a huge fan of that. Right. I hate when stuff is gated out again for like those people who are completionists.
00:24:09
Speaker
I am not one, but I know it sucks to like, let's say at the end of the level, it's like, hey, you got four out of five of those secret items and you're like, fuck and now you know that you're gonna have to go back just to do that one thing ah versus you could have been maybe more thorough and extended your mission play time by ah good 10 to 12 minutes all right four six ah there's like I mean that
Replayability Mechanics
00:24:36
Speaker
there's so many games that use that though Like, obviously, it's kind of used in old games where it's like, oh, you completed the level. Here are two buttons. Now that you see how many secrets you missed.
00:24:46
Speaker
Replay level or go to next level. Yeah. Because, I mean, you beat it, right? Like, you beat the level. There's nothing to worry about. I mean, you beat it. You should feel good. But if you want to, like, actually beat it, like, here you go.
00:24:56
Speaker
Um, the other game I want to call out specifically for this, which was like obnoxious is freaking Starcraft too because you'd be complete a mission in Starcraft two and it would be like, great.
00:25:07
Speaker
Now that you've completed the mission here were the hidden objectives that you could have completed if you did it in a certain timeframe or you didn't allow this ally to die or whatever. And you would net you never see that before the mission launches.
00:25:19
Speaker
And so you're almost always playing twice. If you care about those achievements. that pump But I mean, they were also kind of spoilers sometimes. So whatever. I get it.
00:25:31
Speaker
But um yeah, this is definitely a type of game that encourages spending more time in the world. um Figuring it all out.
00:25:44
Speaker
Um, and it does do it to an extreme beyond what I'm personally interested in doing in the game. But, um, I, I think I can't take any points away from the game for that, right? Like there are a lot of people who will absolutely latch onto the puzzle solving and just themselves, you know, solve the golden path and props to them, right?
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, it is an undertaking yeah to say the very least. But I think once you figure out some stuff, it becomes less of a pain. It becomes maybe a bit tedious.
00:26:23
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. All that to say, um I really do enjoy the pacing of Tunic because you literally start out like with a stick and you're whopping on some slimes to you get a sword and a shield and like you slowly get these tools and you immediately feel the benefit from them. Like when you get a sword, you can now cut down bushes that were blocking your path.
00:26:49
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. you get the the whip thing and now you can traverse to these other things that you saw around, didn't know they had any youth, but now you can get to new areas um and more stuff like that.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah. Although not that many, um I would interject, like compared to... the um Maybe not the oldest Zelda's but like the middle-aged Zelda's Ocarina of Time and stuff like that.
00:27:17
Speaker
You don't have that many puzzle tools Necessarily, I think like the ability to traverse with the whip shot um You get the jumps at some point like quick dashes with the Laurel um and The sword and I don't think anything else was required to solve environmental puzzles and those are actually that There is one like optional secret where technically and I didn't know you could do this until I reread that section of that little footnote.
00:27:52
Speaker
But if you use the fire wand and the ice dagger at the same time on an enemy, It shoots a freezing blast. Oh. And then, because they're frozen, you can whip over to them.
00:28:05
Speaker
Gotcha. Ah, okay. So you could probably do some sequence breaking then with the game. you had those tools. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting, because otherwise it usually pulls enemies to you.
00:28:20
Speaker
Curious. that's the That's the game, though, right? Like there are some crazy interactions. I feel like the game can be summarized by saying it is a cute Zelda like thing that is way more dense than you thought.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yes. um Let's talk about the combat real quick and then talk about the story. yeah to um what were What are your impressions on the combat? Or you want me to start either way?
00:28:44
Speaker
i I'm willing to comment on it. I think the combat is it's mid, right? like You have a three-hit sword combo. ah You have some projectiles you get options to.
00:28:57
Speaker
You have a shield to block stuff. You can technically parry, though it is comedically long. Incredibly punishing. As multiple people have said. um And that's really kind i mean, you do get some mana stuff and other options as far as range between fire, wand, etc. But um yeah yeah, like the combat works and that's kind of it.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like it's not too much to write home about. um I think that the game is well designed around you having those kind of limited tool set for combat.
00:29:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Like each of the big bosses you get to run into, it feels challenging. Yeah. They're really cool bosses. All of them. There's not that many. That's like what? That's true. Four, I think. Something like that.
00:29:52
Speaker
I think there's four. Five? One for each of the much for each of the keys. And then the final boss.
00:30:03
Speaker
I guess there's like the the Guardian too and the West Gardens. Yeah, but that he's he's blocking one of the keys. Is he? Yeah, because you got your your RGB keys and then the final boss. I'm pretty sure you have to, and unless there's some way to sequence break, I think you need to fight a boss before each key.
00:30:23
Speaker
That sounds right. actually just It's just Sunday memory. Yeah. Not what it used to be. It's like the Guardian, the Siege Engine, the Librarian, and Air.
00:30:36
Speaker
Oh, no, no. there's um ah There's also the scavenger boss. Scavenger boss is for the blue key. Yeah.
00:30:47
Speaker
Interesting. So there there was at least four bosses plus air. There we go. Took us a while. We're doing math in real time. who Who's to say? this This is all to say that the combat itself is not the most engaging.
00:30:58
Speaker
No. I think it works because usually you are just kind of... getting some ads or mobs out of the way. Yeah. Uh, and I think again, it's probably used as ah a pacing tool to a degree instead of just having it be, Hey, there are no enemies.
00:31:18
Speaker
Yeah. I think the only times that the combat really got in the way of the game for me, it was like sometimes the boss fights, the, I think the first two were fine, like the siege engine and the one in the West gardens. Um,
00:31:30
Speaker
um I can't remember the name of. um I think those are basically fine. They played pretty well to the engine. The scavenger boss, ah it felt kind of like animation janky sometimes because like he's got like this kick move that feels like a little bit slow.
00:31:45
Speaker
And I guess the game doesn't feel as responsive to me as some other games that um are just like top of the genre, right? Like this isn't Hollow Knight for responsiveness. It's not Hades.
00:31:59
Speaker
um And the perspective also janked me up sometimes where I'm just like, okay, I can't really see necessarily what's going on here. These are fairly minor comments.
00:32:10
Speaker
And I'll be completely honest. Once I got to the end of the game and I saw the actual developer credits, and I was like, oh, that was seven people. thank Well, it's kind of impressive how far they got with this, to be completely honest.
00:32:22
Speaker
There's also an arena fight where you have to do a bunch of fights back to back. And that was pretty frustrating until I realized that they're largely puzzle fights. And Dave helped me out with them.
00:32:35
Speaker
You know, like hand the controller over to Dave. Didn't literally do that, but he's literally like a Yoda over my shoulder. Be like, be like, use the fire one. Lock on and fire one.
00:32:49
Speaker
This is a puzzle fight. True victory comes from the mind. Like, okay. All right. Gotcha. Gotcha. um But I mean, for it being Zelda inspired type thing or Zelda coded type game.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah. Like old Zelda. Like, I think it's it's fine. Yes. yeah Like it it fits what it is, ah but it's definitely not the highlight. Yes. The story, though.
Storyline and Character Focus
00:33:16
Speaker
Story is where the game actually is. Yeah. Off the rails.
00:33:24
Speaker
Completely off the rails. where do Where do we even start? So how is the story portrayed? What is the story about from those opening pages? And like, what does it seem to be?
00:33:38
Speaker
How would you describe that? So as you get those pieces ah of the manual and you have some pictures with again, untranslated text, it seems like they're discovered some power source or way to ah use that for eternal life or use eternal life as a power source.
00:34:00
Speaker
And um basically somebody abused it and Things kind of went to shit. And I'm even personally a little bit fuzzy because it's been a bit as far as ah the role of the air, because the reason you're getting the keys throughout your game is to unlock the air.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah. you're trying to on her um Because they're a fox person like you. And that's the only context you have. You're like, well, I'm going to solve this. Help that person out.
00:34:35
Speaker
Yeah. And that that's it. Like that's that's your opening game. It's very much like um I mean, it's literally Ocarina of Time. If you think about it, ah young Link has to go collect each of the three time stones and the colors, i think red and green and blue um in order to i become the hero of time to get the sword.
00:35:00
Speaker
Um, in this case, it's just to free the Fox. Um, but you have some incentive to do so because like whenever you die, they hit you with the full dark souls and you don't like reload the game.
00:35:13
Speaker
ah you respawn at the last, uh, Fox statue that you, um, used, uh, and the very first time it happens, there's even like a cut scene of the, um,
00:35:24
Speaker
This ethereal fox that's like imprisoned, basically communing with your ghost, essentially, with the heavy implication being that she brings you back. Right.
00:35:36
Speaker
um And so you're like, oh, cool, cool. Like if you're, you know, keeping me from getting permadeath, least I can do is, you know, maybe turn around and save you from your imprisonment. um and it all it all gets more complicated from there. like You get all of the keys, which is like Honestly, a lot of the gameplay, as far as like the adventuring is concerned, is just getting um each of the keys.
00:36:03
Speaker
And every time you do it, it basically like I don't know if it's is it a hexagon? Oh, yeah. Hexagons. They're hexagons. I would know. Yeah. ah Three hexagons comprising one super hexagon ah ah that are basically like rings imprisoning.
00:36:22
Speaker
the, uh, the Fox lady. Um, and once you have broken all the rings by getting all the keys and delivering them to the temple of time or whatever it's called, the cathedral, um, then, uh, then she's free and immediately goes into a boss fight, which, uh, you can apparently win. Uh, I didn't realize that was the case, but I looked it up out of curiosity.
00:36:46
Speaker
um And you can immediately get one of the game endings if you just beat her right off the jump the very first time. i will say very hard to do.
00:36:58
Speaker
Very hard to do. Because I think one, they kind of have you as a little bit wimpy at this point. And also she does a crap ton of damage. You don't know the moveset. As like a first time clear, unlikely. Yeah. Um,
00:37:15
Speaker
But then after she likely kicked your ass, um, banishes you to the shadow realm. you Yeah. You basically show up where you started the game, but as a ghost and you have very capped health, stamina and mana bars. And you're like, fuck.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yes, that was that was my exact reaction. Yeah, you have to go around and explore some more, get the laurels and then go to the heroes graves and essentially piece your character back up.
00:37:50
Speaker
Like this is you being kicked down the mountain and Celeste and you're like, just you away. And then you are reinvigorated ah to go and take them on basically.
00:38:02
Speaker
Mm hmm. And so the natural question, i as well as I'm sure every other person who's played this game asked, like when they are forced into a boss fight against this person they just saved with a giant, I'm going to say the moonlight great sword and is basically what it is um
00:38:19
Speaker
it is. Why is this happening? And why do they like look sad after they kill me? Yeah, right.
Plot Twists and Dark Themes
00:38:28
Speaker
um And that's that's where all the plot comes in, i guess, because after this happens, after she kills you, things also start to go off the rails as far as like the world is concerned.
00:38:39
Speaker
There's like glitches and g like glitch type enemies where even being hit by them or in some cases being too close to them causes like your max health to drain. And if you reference the manual, your health is your will to continue.
00:38:56
Speaker
And if you reference the translated manual, um you can get a little bit extra context. And this this effect, this miasma that drains your health is described as seeing the truth.
00:39:11
Speaker
And putting those two things together is uncomfortable. Yeah. Like this, this is now a game for adults and not a game for kids. So, I mean, like the big thing for me is kind of like that reveal when you um go into the ziggurat.
00:39:32
Speaker
Yeah. um So like throughout the game, you will see different I'm just going to call them ley lines. Yeah. um But it's kind of like a a cubic tube or like these two by four shaped things that go throughout the world, connecting some things.
00:39:49
Speaker
And you understand that it's a power source. Sometimes you need to pray at what are basically batteries to turn it on and have it lock in, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:01
Speaker
And then as you're going to look for that third key, ah You get to see some behind the scenes stuff. And you see a fox who's like very emaciated. um Essentially ah getting crucified.
00:40:22
Speaker
Well, yeah, there's that one. As far as the I'm not sure if they're being afflicted by the miasma or if it's taking over their body. ah But basically a miasma.
00:40:33
Speaker
um creature is being put into these batteries and is acting as the batteries. Yeah. um So that's what I was referencing before, as far as that using eternal life as a power source.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yes. And then um after you kind of like see that realization, um, As you're going to the scavenger fight, you're above this large area where you just see and I love any time a game does this.
00:41:03
Speaker
um It's just like an infinite number of these things are like way down below you. Right. Like this has been happening for such a long time. There's such like a large number of these.
00:41:16
Speaker
Yeah, they're just being imprisoned like forever. Yeah. For who knows how long. um The other thing I want to interject with for the interacting, the praying at the ah the batteries to complete like a circuit.
00:41:30
Speaker
um When you do so, when you complete the prayer, there's what I'm going to describe as like an 8-bit scream. Yeah. basically sound effect. And the first time it's unsettling and through the rest of the game until you reach like the factory, you can kind of start to get used to it and be like, maybe this is some weird artistic choice.
00:41:48
Speaker
Um, But also, i've read this on a Reddit comment, and i hadn't thought, I'm not going to claim this as original thought, but it lines up. um After you pray and the battery goes down, um there's some magic orbs you can always pick up.
00:42:04
Speaker
It's like three of them or so. And that only happens when you defeat a creature with a soul in the game. In fact, the enemies that don't drop magic are explicitly called out to not have souls.
00:42:17
Speaker
Huh. So it's really heavily implied once you put this all together that you're killing one of these souls or creatures or whatever when you activate the tower when you pray at it.
00:42:32
Speaker
Okay, so I guess it's not eternal life technically that they have. Well, so maybe it is until they're forcibly killed. Exactly right. Like they're so the one of the theories and who knows which of these is correct, right? There's so much information you can get from this is that I love this one, though, um because they talk about digging down like the old Fox civilization.
00:42:58
Speaker
um I guess I got to I got. alright Let me lay out the groundwork for the theory. All right. Tinfoil hats. Everybody on. Everybody's prepared. oh i the game or sorry, the universe is a video game.
00:43:13
Speaker
You have to accept this first. This is one of those. ah The evidence for this is the librarian who's one of the bosses and he calls you an idiot if you beat him. ah Very funny.
00:43:24
Speaker
ah Has a like chalkboard and um it's just got like the words, the universe, like written in their language or whatever with like a question mark and then ah drawing of a video game cartridge.
00:43:38
Speaker
but Um, So start with that, right? Their universe is a video game. um But it's a video game that whenever it's completed, ah everything resets.
00:43:51
Speaker
um Because, you know, someone's going to start a new game or whatever. And so they want to escape this. They dig down into the the mountain, essentially, and ah find the ziggurat and all of that.
00:44:05
Speaker
And this theory is that they find the save data for their characters, essentially, for each of the foxes. And this save data um is how they feel fuel their immortality by trapping themselves essentially in a time loop.
00:44:25
Speaker
And all of the theories for this game basically acknowledge that the time loop is a thing, even if you disagree with a specific one. but they there There has to be some type of time loop because... yeah Like when it shows the hero, AKA you, um, fighting the air, uh, it always says like, Hey, like, uh, countless battles fought throughout the ages.
00:44:52
Speaker
Exactly. type yeah anger Like it's, it's cyclical basically. Yeah. So the idea is, and there's some evidence for this, the, the original hero,
00:45:03
Speaker
um is the person who existed before the time loop and ultimately becomes the first air, um which is the person who is trapped in the the shadow. i can't even remember the word for it. It's the French word for prison.
00:45:18
Speaker
It's like Obliette. I think. think it's Obliette. Yeah. i think it's hopeful yeah um And there is some evidence that the Ruin Seeker is basically just like a time locked incarnation of the air themselves, because the game kind of plays with this a little bit. They're like, oh, you're probably a male fox and that's probably a female fox.
00:45:42
Speaker
um But if you have gotten to the point in the game where you've regained all the stuff from the hero and you return to corporeal form, you can like change your fur color at the house, I guess.
00:45:55
Speaker
um And if you do that, then at the end of the game, ah if you free the air, which we're getting into that ending, but if you free the air, her fur color changes to match yours.
Theories and Narrative Complexity
00:46:09
Speaker
um Meaning that you're the same person is the implication. um And this really makes sense in the save file conspiracy, tinfoil hats back on, um where their way of becoming immortal was to basically steal the save data from themselves, from their their their previous save or whatever.
00:46:38
Speaker
It's super messed up. It gets really weird. It gets more in detail. Like, Google it. There's there's there's a ton. But at the very least, there is an outside. It's called the Far Shore. um And there's the eyes from outside, which is, like, the threat that they're really, really concerned about.
00:46:54
Speaker
And it seems to be this corruption to their world. And they trapped their own civilization in this time loop as a way for immortality. But they must keep the air imprisoned in order to protect their world.
00:47:11
Speaker
um And that's the reason when you free the air the first time. um All of the bananas. Yeah, things go bananas. so um Last thing, and then you can take the tinfoil hat off because I'm like, there's a lot, right? We don't have time for it. There's a lot.
00:47:26
Speaker
um The word air. is also the English word error, basically. And so that's another part of the conspiracy is the error.
00:47:38
Speaker
Er is the hero who originally founded this process of like consuming or diabolizing or utilizing the save data.
00:47:50
Speaker
um And they started mucking up their world and had to be contained. But like, Jeez, it goes crazy. It goes absolutely crazy. It's a lot more than the hero saves the princess.
00:48:02
Speaker
Yeah. What are the endings, Dave? I've talked enough.
00:48:09
Speaker
So ah the one ending that I know about, i've not actually tried the other ending. I know how you get there loosely. Yeah. ah But one ending is you defeat the heir and...
00:48:21
Speaker
surprise, surprise, you become the new heir for the next loop. Really cool animation too, with ah hexagons interlocking around you to imprison you.
00:48:34
Speaker
um And then the other option is You need to get all of the pages of the manual. Like, that fill out the whole thing completely. ah One of the pages is locked up in the mountain behind the mountain door.
00:48:50
Speaker
um and you're like, don't what this. It's the first page. um But basically, this is where the golden path comes in. Where... I think it's laid out as like these different numbers in these tiles. You're like, I don't know what that means.
00:49:07
Speaker
Each of the numbers corresponds to a page of the manual. Right. So basically there is a golden line that connects between each page. um And basically for the Holy Cross, which you get taught at some points, basically you're using the D pad to trace that line.
00:49:26
Speaker
oh because the d-pad is a cross yeah um and like a lot of the times you use the holy cross it's like six inputs six or seven the golden path is over 100 and even when i looked it up um there were times that i input it incorrectly so that was like a minor gripe of mine of I mean, I guess it is just ah the possibility for human error or possibly technical error.
00:49:59
Speaker
I did it right. The Xbox controller is wrong. um But after you've done all this and get all the pages, ah basically that last page you unlock says, hey, um assuming you've unlocked everything.
00:50:13
Speaker
And I think you have to also have done at least 10 of the fairies. Hmm. for something ah but basically I think you then need to take that completed manual to I assume the air yes yeah you do the same thing as triggering the boss fight but I don't actually know what happens at that point all right I can jump in here. Also, that first page of the manual, it has the signatures of all the game developers because it's completely meta and it's just thanking you for playing the game.
00:50:42
Speaker
um But yeah, ah you can ah re-enter the fight with the the error. And um rather than there's actually like a little cut scene where she starts to like summon the blade and things like that.
00:50:57
Speaker
And then you're just like sitting there with this like book held up to her, the manual. And you're just like, look at this. No, read this first. um And this is where it gets almost like uncomfortably meta because the manual is at this point laying everything out for the universe.
00:51:15
Speaker
But it's also the full explanation that it's a video game. And, um... Basically what happens is she puts the weapon down, she reads the manual with you, and ah through wisdom, um you break the cycle.
00:51:35
Speaker
She no longer you know wants to fight you. You obviously don't want to fight her because why would you want to be in prison forever? um And she returns to her corporeal form. And the the normal ending for the game has like a bunch of like level art, which is these kind of floating islands of tile sets.
00:51:53
Speaker
Like, oh, there's some like some trees, and here's like some snow and stuff like that. And you think it's just like an art thing. Gallery essentially which would be perfectly the fine But if you get this ending it has you and her Basically just playing or dancing or whatever on every single one of these tile sets for the credits and it's incredibly cute I like that and Canonically, this is a very happy ending right canonically based off everything else you know if you figured it all out this is also not necessarily good for their world because she was also holding back the eyes from outside tunic to everybody that's where we're going um but it's a very cute ending
00:52:44
Speaker
So I want to have a question for you because I've obviously talked at you about this game and over the years. um What are your thoughts as far as did it live up to the hype? Did I over talk certain things where there's certain puzzle aspects you're like, this really does kind of pull me out of it?
00:53:04
Speaker
Hmm. um Those are good questions. i I didn't actually get the impression that it was like super overhyped. I know. So friend of show and special guest Ian. um I was in discord when he was playing through the game the first time. i don't remember anything particular that he said about plots and things like that.
00:53:22
Speaker
But I knew that it was one of the games that like set him off into insanity like blueprints did recently. um So I knew that there were so there was going to be some shenanigans at some point.
00:53:34
Speaker
But I didn't know it at all how that would play out. um I think is a basic adventure game, especially with the accessibility settings to tune the game to however you want to engage with it.
00:53:47
Speaker
It's really, really good to tune it. ah Exactly. That's my one contribution for humor. They also have like a phonetic language, by the way. This is the tinfoil hat back on. Actually, no, take it off because it's proven.
00:54:01
Speaker
um Sounds in the game correlate to words. And that language is called tune ik with an E, extra E in the middle when she.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yep. Game's crazy. Anyways, I enjoyed the playthrough. i got really engrossed in the story a lot more than the gameplay, to be completely honest. I think it's fine.
00:54:27
Speaker
Like, some the gameplay is a little bit more engaging, but the story is really the fuel that kept me going towards the end. And so the times where the combat kind of got in the way of progressing the story, I was like, step aside, combat. Like, we...
00:54:41
Speaker
I don't, I don't think I need you here compared to the reason that I'm actually playing the game. But also once you've completed the game, once you've, you've gotten the bad end or whatever, I also don't think I would encourage any of my friends to like try to get the other ending themselves compared to jumping on Wikipedia, jumping on Reddit threads, viewing the other ending in YouTube. but Um,
00:55:08
Speaker
because it is meant for like the insane, like the the Sherlock Holmes and the people who have the strength of will to do all of this stuff themselves. I don't think it's necessarily worth the time, but I like the world.
00:55:23
Speaker
um So all in all, I do recommend the game, but that's the way I would recommend people to play it, to get their first ending and then look the rest up. Kind of sad, but... I mean, again, it's it will reward you if you're good at picking up on things or noticing something is a pattern versus just aesthetics.
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah. um An example that ah Jake encountered and when I was watching him play, I'm like, hey, go back to this thing you just walked over. He's like, oh, these flowers? I'm like, yeah, how are those flowers arranged?
00:55:59
Speaker
Are they all, you know, one cardinal turn away from each other at least 90 degrees? And you're like, yeah. What's that big flower? Why is that one different? Oh, we start there. And then you do the Holy Cross.
00:56:13
Speaker
um The Holy Cross is honestly used for a lot of the secrets ah you will find Yeah. But it is something where like when I've gone back and played through, at least for this recording, I obviously ah had a lot of that knowledge.
00:56:30
Speaker
Some of it was not retained for sure. um But it was cool to go back and be like, oh, I remember there was a little shortcut here. I don't technically have to go that way. And I was kind of poking around being like, oh, can I sequence break anything? Do I have to go over here yet? Or what all can I currently access?
00:56:49
Speaker
ah So it was fun to kind of go back at it again. Yeah. yeah Yeah. But it has the heart of an adventure game for sure. Yeah. I think, mean, the story is obviously very well done and very
Aesthetic and Design Success
00:57:04
Speaker
layered.
00:57:04
Speaker
um I like that the game manual has notes from the original adventurer. Yeah. ah For like things that they were trying to figure out and patterns that they had noticed.
00:57:16
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I really love the spectacle of the game. Because I know we said it's it's aesthetically pleasing. It looks nice. ah But there are certain shots, like, as you are climbing the librarian's tower to face them at the top, occasionally the camera will kind of rotate around.
00:57:36
Speaker
ah But it was just done to great effect in that shot. Or... when you're in the graveyard and you look at the telescope to get like more of a bird's eye view. Right. And everything's, you get a ah nice look of everything in tilt shift and I'm a tilt shift slut.
00:57:52
Speaker
I've always thought it was cool. Um, the coolest one of that, by the way, was passing in front of the ziggurat for me. It's like the camera basically is zoomed out and you just see this massive structure and you're like, I'm probably going to go there.
00:58:07
Speaker
Um,
00:58:09
Speaker
But yeah, as it does a really good job of making it ah a fun hero's journey. All of the areas you go to and visit are not all that big, honestly.
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. It doesn't feel like it overstays its welcome for any of those different areas. And each one just feels thematically enough of what it needs to be.
00:58:35
Speaker
Like nothing feels out of place, even though there are a lot of setting changes. Right.
00:58:41
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it is. don't know. I just I have a soft spot in my heart for it. It's a really well made game. And like, again, conceptualized. I don't think necessarily we should gain give aspects of a game a pass if it was made by a small team compared to like a large team.
00:59:02
Speaker
But it does help conceptualize how much of an accomplishment this game was. That it was made by seven people, right? Like that that's a pretty small group. And I honestly thought going through the game that a lot more contributed to this.
00:59:18
Speaker
um Yeah, everything we described, all of that insanity. How Long to Beat has the main story at 12 and a half hours. And The Completionist is almost double that at 21 and a half hours. But that's because you have to go down the rabbit hole to really see everything.
00:59:39
Speaker
um Yeah. Really good game. um My appraisal of it went up as I was playing it, um which is not a given for all video games.
00:59:50
Speaker
So. Well, I'm glad you were able to appreciate the game. Oh, yeah. Years after the fact where I was like, everybody, please, please.
01:00:03
Speaker
It's added to a list somewhere. It's fine. um No, it's a good game. Recommend it. If you haven't played it and you listen to this, what have you done? First off, because... So much of the incentive, I think, to play this game is based off the story.
01:00:21
Speaker
But if you had played it, hopefully we didn't get everything wrong. Or maybe there's some stuff that you know that we don't. Yeah.
01:00:32
Speaker
And if you want to tell us those things, we have a conspiracy club we've opened up called Our Socials that are in the description. Reach out there. And as always, we'll see you in the next one.
01:00:43
Speaker
Have good night.