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Episode 65: 5 Ways to Get More Out of a Branding Project
166 Plays5 years ago
It has only taken 60 plus episodes, but Krista has finally joined me for an episode of the podcast. It is the perfect time too, because we are kicking off a mini-series about branding and website design. Krista and I are chatting about the 5 ways to get the most out of a branding project and we even include an activity to start working on your brand’s esthetic. We cover things like hiring a designer, timing, and tips for completing a project. We know that we did not discuss everything in this episode, so if there is something that you would like to learn more about, please reach out! We will try to cover it during this mini-series.
Many of you probably know who Krista is, but if you don’t, she is my wife, creative director, and lead designer here at Davey and Krista. She would probably also add that she is my boss, but that is a highly debated subject over here.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-episode-65
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Transcript
Client Branding Challenges
00:00:05
Speaker
I mean, you'd be surprised how many people come to us and say, you know, I really want something unique, something that reflects me. And that looks just like insert photographer's name here. Yes. Right. And those are contradictory things. Right. And so, you know, we always go back and say, hey, we're going to focus on something that's, you know, unique to you and reflects your brand.
Introduction to Brands at Book Show
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
Meet Krista and Branding Series Intro
00:00:42
Speaker
It's only taken 60 plus episodes, but Krista has finally joined me for an episode of the podcast. And it's right in time too, because today we are kicking off a branding and website design mini series. Krista and I are chatting about five ways to get the most out of a branding project, and we even include an activity that you can complete in order to start working on your brand's aesthetic.
00:01:03
Speaker
We cover everything from hiring a designer, to timing, to tips for completing the project. And we know that we probably didn't get to everything in this episode. So if there's something that we didn't cover that you're interested in learning more about, let us know in the comments of the show notes or send us a message on Instagram and we'll try to cover it in this series. Many of you probably know who Krista is, but for those of you who don't, she's my wife, the creative director and the lead designer over here at Davey and Krista.
00:01:30
Speaker
She'd probably also add to this intro that she's my boss, but that's a debated subject around here. Before we get to the episode, I have a request. If you've enjoyed the brands of book podcasts, would you take a minute to rate and review it on iTunes? Doing so will help this podcast get more visibility and it mean a lot to me.
00:01:46
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at davianchrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode. And like I said, we want to hear from you. Let us know what kind of content you'd like to see on the Branchette Book Podcast as we move forward.
Importance of Branding and Timing
00:01:56
Speaker
To leave your feedback, head on over to the Davian Christa Facebook page and send us a message or dms on Instagram at Davian Christa. Now onto the episode.
00:02:10
Speaker
All right, Krista, welcome to the Brands That Book Show. Krista was holding out for episode 100, but I finally convinced her 60 something episodes in to join me on the podcast. I kind of figured that it's taken a while to get to 60 episodes. And if I kept holding out, it might be like another year before I'm actually on the podcast, which is kind of a while to wait.
00:02:32
Speaker
That's right. It already took you over a year to join me on the podcast. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about branding. We're talking about five ways to get the most out of a branding project. This is actually going to be part of a series. Throughout the month of November and maybe even a little bit into December, we're going to be talking specifically branding and website design, in part because we find that
00:02:59
Speaker
creatives, especially those in the wedding industry, seem to like to work on their brands and websites starting around the holidays, but certainly into the new year. And I think that's because a lot of people are really busy shooting in the spring and the summer, depending on where you live and the fall. And so once they've gotten through all of their shooting and editing, they realize they finally have time to work on their business instead of just in their business. And so around this time of the year, we start to get a ton of emails about rebranding.
00:03:26
Speaker
Right. And I would say that we work with some makers too. And they typically get really busy going through the holidays. But again, starting in January, I feel like things really start to pick up. But we already see that. And it's almost November now. So we're recording at the end of October. So today we're talking about branding. We're talking about branding first for a few different reasons.
00:03:48
Speaker
One, because if you were trying to approach both a branding and website project in order, you would start with branding. I think that it's more appealing for people. Maybe it sounds more fun. Maybe this assumption is wrong, but this is just what I feel like I pick up from people. People want to tackle website projects and they don't always understand why a branding project is important. Would you agree?
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that's partly because it's easier to visualize a website than a brand. Thinking about a brand, there's so many different components that can possibly go into it. It can be more than your logo. It can be all of your collateral and your voice and what you share in different places. And so
00:04:32
Speaker
I think that sounds really overwhelming to people, but a website that can kind of visualize. You kind of know like, I need a homepage, I need to show off my work, I need an about page that introduces people to me. And so I think a lot of people just want to start there, but they don't, maybe some people just don't even know to do the work ahead of time to create your brand.
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the website just, it's easier for people to wrap their mind around it being such a central component of their business, right? It has such a functional aspect to it too, I guess is what I'm trying to say. I would of course, as I think you would as well, make the argument that a brand should be super functional too. But we find sometimes people jumping ahead to website projects
00:05:16
Speaker
then deciding to do a branding project shortly after they're done their website project.
Hiring Specialists for Branding
00:05:21
Speaker
And almost always, people want to then go back and revisit their website. Yeah, like maybe they're starting with a logo they didn't really love to begin with or that maybe didn't appeal to their ideal client. And they think, well, if I have a new website, maybe I will like my logo or maybe everything wants to come together. But then when we're trying to build a website around the older logo and colors and fonts,
00:05:45
Speaker
they just kind of realize that it's not giving them the look and feel that they want. So that's why we normally recommend starting with a brand. And a logo doesn't have to be like crazy complicated either. Like it could be simple. So yeah, absolutely. So that's why we're talking about a branding project. First, I really, I guess I want to start from the beginning though, and talk about even how to find a brand designer
00:06:09
Speaker
And I think this is a part of a larger conversation about designers in general too, because there are different kinds of designers out there. And I think sometimes we think, oh, so and so is good at design. So they can design my website or they can design my brand. So how important is it to find somebody who specializes in brand design?
00:06:27
Speaker
Oh, I think it's vital. Different designers are going to specialize in different things. Somebody who's really good at wedding invitations might not know all of the different technical aspects that need to go into branding. They might not be thinking about ideal clients and the whole bigger picture of how these colors are going to translate into all the different aspects of their brand.
00:06:50
Speaker
they might not know how to design a logo that can work well at different sizes and in different shapes and formats. You know, a lot of times when we do a brand, we give them a square format and a circle format and just different logos that can be used in different places. And so if someone doesn't specialize in branding, they might not know that all of those different components go into it.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah i think just the fact that they might not know about all of the different components even of a visual brand too and i don't see this mistakes made so much with brand designers but i do see it made on website design so people maybe they go through a brand new project any really love how their brand turned out and so they ask their brand designer hey can you build a website for me too.
00:07:32
Speaker
And that brand designer may not be a website designer, but it's easy for people to say, oh, yeah, well, sure, I can do that because I am a designer. Right. And then what people end up with is a website that's not as functional because what they hired was a brand designer to do a website when they really needed a website designer.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really true. I think that maybe somebody's really, really good at creating logos, but there's just so many technical aspects that go into building a website. Knowing how to size images, knowing what fonts you should use and what sizes you should use, knowing how much text you should use in places, just understanding the whole user interface and user experience is pretty big. And so somebody could be really like a talented designer, but if they don't understand all of those components that go into web,
00:08:16
Speaker
they might not be creating the best website for you. Like you don't want me designing wedding invitations because I don't know anything about, I mean, I used to know about printing, but I definitely don't know about printing now. So it's not to say that somebody's not talented. It's just, I think there's so many of you said for specializing in things. Absolutely. Like if you want to print something, you want to get a graphic designer who specializes in print, right? So a paper person. I don't even know where to send you. Like I know a few printer places, but like if you want letterpress, like don't come to me because I don't
00:08:44
Speaker
know what to do. Sure. But we had letterpress, you know, Lauren Joseph was on the podcast. So that's a good person to start with super talented, just had Elizabeth Young, also somebody that could help with that. But anyways, the point being is that when you hire somebody for brand design, you want to make sure that they're actually a brand designer. So they understand all the visual elements that go into brand design, right?
00:09:05
Speaker
So we have five things that we want to cover when it comes to planning and making the most out of your brand design project. The first one is getting the timing right. All right. So getting the timing right. What do we mean by that? Because I think we mean two different things. Okay. One of the things that I think we mean is that you should anticipate that it's going to take at least a few weeks, if not a few months to do your brand. And keep in mind that like, especially the winter is the busiest season for a lot of brand designers.
00:09:35
Speaker
If you were to come to us today and hope for a brand that would launch at the beginning of the year, January 1st, it's probably not realistic to think that you're going to be able to get into our schedule and then have everything done in time for a New Year's Day launch. If you came to us maybe today.
00:09:53
Speaker
Maybe, maybe today, but you have to reach out today. But anyways, the point being is that you want to give you want to give yourself some time. This is why I think it's a great time to work on your website. I know we're not talking about websites here, right? But a lot of people want to work on their website in the off season. But the off season also, I mean, that area from January, I'd say, or the holidays, Christmas in particular to, you know, through Valentine's Day, also booking season for a lot of people as well. So having a new website ready for that season, I think can go a long way.
00:10:21
Speaker
But the point being is keep in mind that it's going to take at least a few weeks. We typically say around six weeks for a brand. And that's a pretty, that's a pretty, I think, accurate timeframe. What holds up projects?
00:10:35
Speaker
People not getting back to me or getting back to us on the things that we ask them for. So we send everybody a branding questionnaire to begin with, and it's kind of extensive because there's a lot of thought that goes into it. We're actually pulling some of the stuff that we're talking about today from that branding questionnaire. But if people take a couple weeks to fill it out, then that holds us up because there's just different phases of the design process that we need time to complete. And if people aren't getting back to us with the things that we need or responses about revisions, then it could really hold it up.
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing in all cases. I mean, obviously, if you procrastinate forever, that's not very good for anybody. But yeah, project loses momentum if you procrastinate too much. Yeah, what we often find we so we send the branding questionnaire as soon as somebody books and it is kind of nice to have a little bit of time to fill it out, sit on it a little bit before we actually move into the project.
00:11:27
Speaker
because you might find that you want to go back and you want to revise things after writing them out. But I did set you up for that question, because I would say that typically things move along at a pretty quick pace, as long as people are being responsive. And that's going to be true, I assume, for anybody you hire, right? Yeah. So get the timing right. But on the other hand, to thinking about in terms of
00:11:51
Speaker
where your business is now. And we were talking a little bit before the episode started, who a branding project is good for. Obviously branding is good for all businesses, like all businesses have some sort of visual
00:12:08
Speaker
you know element to their brand or to their business so brand is important my point is so we're talking about till agency which is the relatively new ad agency that i started this year we had sort of a bare minimum brand. When we started the business we didn't go through like a really thorough branding process right cuz you didn't even know who your ideal client was gonna be.
00:12:31
Speaker
Sure. I mean, we had an idea of who we're going to work with, but what's interesting and kind of, I think this is true for most people starting businesses is sometimes the people that you think you're going to serve end up not being the people that you end up serving. And maybe you just end up liking maybe a different kind of person or in our case, we're serving other businesses that you didn't assume. So that was true with us in photography. I think when I first started, I thought I wanted to do like the crazy expensive luxury weddings, but we pretty figured that out pretty quickly that those weren't our ideal clients.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, I would say so just to clarify too, because we are photography did start at almost $7,000. Eventually. So I mean, I would still consider that luxury. But it's a, like, that more, there were people who cared a lot about photography, but we're pretty laid back. Yes, like we are not high maintenance people. Yeah.
00:13:20
Speaker
I think so. There are people that really liked nice things. Yes. But we're really back and really fun to work with. Yeah. But anyways, I mean, for till we are talking and as agency, we're working with more software as a service or SaaS businesses than we assumed we would. And we really like working with those types of businesses. So even after a year now, we're talking about our brand and what that looks like. So I think there is a point in which you don't maybe
Rebranding for New Business Identities
00:13:44
Speaker
want to invest too much
00:13:47
Speaker
Into your brand too early in your business i would say that more often than not there the air that people make is waiting too long.
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think that a lot of people they want to reach a higher end client or maybe move to a different market or reach a different person, or maybe their bookings are starting to slow down. And it might like one of the reasons that could possibly be happening is because their brand isn't connecting with who they want to connect with. Yes. And so I think again, if you are looking to jump price points, especially, you know, your brand is something that you're going to want to nail down.
00:14:23
Speaker
Right. And before you jump price points. Yeah. And there's definitely stuff that you or as, you know, I think I don't necessarily believe that you have to wait and get everything in line before you make steps in your business.
00:14:35
Speaker
Right. I think that I like to design brands that people can grow into. Sure. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And regardless, we're going to do that. Right. But I guess my point was in talking about people making price jumps, there are definitely things that you can do to your website to give it an upgrade and give it a facelift. Oh, yeah, without hiring a designer.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, without hiring a designer. And we've written about that on the blog for sure. So there are things that you can do that and you can kind of upgrade your website to kind of match the type of clientele that you want to reach. But I don't think you're going to attract that kind of client if your brand currently doesn't reflect it. Like the real quality of the upgrade in a website is going to come in doing a brand project first.
00:15:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I agree. I think that it just helps pull everything together too. And a lot of times it gives people, like going through the branding exercises tends to give people a vision for their brand. It helps them organize their thoughts and really figure out who they want to reach. And so when you know exactly who you want to reach, you know how to market to them. Like, you know where they are, you know what visuals to share, you know what language to use. And so I think that going through the branding exercise brings all of that together.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I'd say that that's kind of like a fun secondary consequence of people going through branding that we get to hear is that people feel a lot more clarity and direction in their business after going through a branding project. Even though, you know, obviously the primary goal is to give them a beautiful visual brand. So that's fun. Other thing that I wanted to mention along those lines was that as somebody starts a brand project,
00:16:08
Speaker
The other kind of person that certainly would find value in a branding project, and we've dealt with quite a few of these, or this kind of example, people who are going to change their business name.
00:16:19
Speaker
So I think we've seen a lot of people move away from, I don't mean generic as in like bland, but business names that aren't personal, that aren't branded. And I'm not saying that one, like a personal brand is better than a non personal brand. That's not, I think both can be equally powerful. But we've worked with quite a few people who had more of a non personal brand and have moved towards the personal brand. And so a person like that, I think definitely needs to go through the branding process again.
00:16:47
Speaker
Oh yeah, I mean, you're going to have to change your logo and all of the visuals that go with your brand and then probably a website and all of the different things. Actually, two of our design clients are doing that right now, like our two of our branding clients are going from a more basic name that could really be anybody's business name to something that's their name since it's way more personal.
00:17:08
Speaker
Yeah, and we've also worked with companies who have been acquired, and maybe they're trying to breathe new life into their business, you know, and the branding process has really helped them to do that. Right. So I think that's a pretty good idea of maybe who would benefit from a branding process, and especially just in terms of getting the timing right. So the second tip is what?
00:17:29
Speaker
All right, so the second tip is really hone in on your why. And when you figure out who what your why is, it's going to help you figure out what your business is all about. So I'm use a wedding photographer, for example. So if you're a wedding photographer, why are you wedding photographer? Why weddings and why not portraits? What do you enjoy most about the wedding day?
00:17:50
Speaker
Do you love the intimate moments before the ceremony when the bride is adjusting her veil and enjoying a glass of champagne with her closest friends? Or do you like the reception when everybody pulls Grandma in her wheelchair on the dance floor and they're just having the best time laughing together? Or are you the kind of photographer who loves seeing what details the bride and groom chose and capturing those personal, carefully chosen details in a beautiful way that helps them remember
00:18:19
Speaker
the things that they liked and the things that were meaningful to them at the time. So like using the photographer, like if somebody comes to me and they say that seeing all of the different generations of family come together and celebrate is their favorite part of the day, then I'm gonna create a different brand for them than I am for someone who tells me that the carefully chosen details are part of the day. The person who values the generations in the family is maybe gonna be a better fit for a timeless brand that focuses on
00:18:47
Speaker
I mean family photos and generations and legacies yeah whereas details we might do more their website would definitely have more detailed photos but it's probably gonna be a little more like designer and pretty and like the wording would just be different too.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, it even starts tying into the website a little bit. I can't help but think about how that's going to influence the about page and the kind of content that you share there, especially just around the story of why you do what you do. And I think that's the kind of stuff that people really will connect with. Obviously, you want the visuals to be cohesive with the copy element of your brand as well.
00:19:24
Speaker
So, I think that kind of stuff is just a really good preliminary activity, not only for the brand project, but as you move into the website project as well.
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. And I like thinking about your why also differentiates you from everybody else. And like you said, it's going to help those ideal clients connect with you and figure out, okay, well, you value legacy and so do why. So you're the photographer for me. Absolutely. And there's also, this is going to, it really does influence how your brand looks.
Creating Unique Brand Identities
00:19:53
Speaker
I mean, a brand that is all about legacy, you know, preserving memories for generations is going to be a little bit different than the brand who's really about the celebration of the day.
00:20:03
Speaker
or the, you know, like the reception, more reception oriented, more party oriented. Yeah, I mean, I would think like way more color for the party brand and like maybe some like fun scripty fonts, whereas like legacy, I see more timeless, like really neutral colors, lots of black and white images and hands holding and like grandma crying, hugging the daughter, you know, those kinds of things.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So that kind of question, I think great also to refer back to whenever you're working on anything that has to do with your brand, whether it be your website, or something else, or even like, you know, again, we're using a lot of wedding photographer examples, but a bridal guide that might be printed or might be online, right? So that's a good question that you can come back to throughout the entire year or any sort of Yeah, yeah, just your business project. Alright, so let's move on. We need to roll. What's the third tip?
00:20:52
Speaker
be aware of your competition and idols, but don't copy them. I really like this tip. I'm glad. Yeah. And I would say that one of the best things that anybody can do, maybe even just in life, but certainly in business, is to look outside of your industry. I don't know how you do that in life. But again, just the point being is that
00:21:15
Speaker
look outside your industry because I think that's where we find I think we're influenced by a lot of things outside of our industry. Yeah. Right. And that keeps you from copying. It keeps you from like overly imitating anybody else in your market.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean I think it's really easy when you're trying to figure out what you want for your brand to look at your competition and see what they're doing and maybe you want something similar to them. Maybe you like an element of what they have. It's also really easy to look to your idols in your industry and see what they're doing and try to create something that's similar because you think
00:21:48
Speaker
Well they're really successful they're reaching the kind of clients I want to reach maybe I should do what they're doing but the thing is that you don't know exactly who they're reaching like your idol might not be reaching the person that you think they're trying to reach and same with your competition and I think that when you look at other people's it's really easy to get what they have in your brain and like naturally like almost like subconsciously create something that looks similar even if you're not trying to.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I would say just think through, especially as you're describing to your designer what you want. Just be aware of that. I mean, you'd be surprised how many people come to us and say, you know, I really want something unique, something that reflects me, and that looks just like insert photographer's name here, right? And those are contradictory things, right? And so, you know, we always go back and say, hey, we're going to focus on something that's, you know, unique to you and reflects your brand.
00:22:42
Speaker
And so our next point will kind of get into the client profile, but what we normally recommend is thinking about your ideal client, like the person you want to reach, like think about the brands that they are looking at. So like, if I said my ideal client likes to shop at J crew, I should be looking at J crew, for example, as a flick.
00:22:59
Speaker
the colors that they use and the fonts that they use and the way they lay out their typography. Because JGrew has probably millions of dollars to spend figuring out exactly how to appeal to if we have the same client to that person. And so my competition, I mean, depending on who my competition or who my idols are, probably doesn't have millions of dollars to spend on marketing research.
00:23:23
Speaker
For sure. I would push back on that argument a little bit because I think that there are anybody who's worked for a big business before knows how just unaware, how unaware sometimes big business can be or how just out of touch sometimes big business can be. But what I would agree with is that
00:23:42
Speaker
if your ideal client really likes j crew or loves certain pieces of art you know whatever the case might be whatever the example we're using obviously looking to those things for inspiration make sense right so what is your intentional yeah it's just like a winging it for all of them some of them might be a be testing their website and you don't know that so like they could have tested it to figure that out exactly but some websites might be a be testing us right now so we might see a version of their website that actually doesn't win well.
00:24:11
Speaker
Anyways, don't look to your idols or your competitors. And if you're wondering, this kind of conversation happens with us a lot. Will we just be sitting there talking about something? Yeah, totally agree. No, I don't. All of a sudden, we have a disagreement like this. Yeah. I'd say this is pretty typical. Yes. But it's okay. Anyways, moving on, let's talk about your ideal client. I have some pet peeves when it comes to building your client profile. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, you know this. But anyways, on the one hand,
00:24:41
Speaker
I think it's totally important, and you're going to get into this in a second, in building a client avatar or ideal client board or however you want to go about creating a client avatar. So basically defining who the person is that you are targeting in as much descriptive detail as you can. I am about that.
00:25:02
Speaker
I also think that this is one of those things that people get hung up on too early and that the experiences you have, especially early in business, are going to help shape that. Because as you said, we had a different idea of who our ideal client might be. And then maybe when we started working with some of those types of clients, we realized, no, we actually like this kind of client. So I would be open enough
00:25:25
Speaker
This is especially true, I think, if you're starting out, you know, if you're in the first year or so of your business to maybe take on a client that doesn't quite fit your, you know, ideal client avatar, because I think that person might surprise you. I think we've been surprised by clients in the past. And it's really shaped, you know, who the people are that we try to serve today.
00:25:47
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I think that's true. We always ask people to be as descriptive as possible. So to think about where that person shops, what hangs on their walls, what they do with their free time. And so like a not so great answer for this would be my ideal client is 20 to 38 female. She shops at Target and her walls are filled with home goods decor.
00:26:09
Speaker
Literally that says nothing about your ideal client and those these are answers that i have actually gotten before because target sells everything from deodorant to dog food to joanna gain stuff like it just is not a good example cuz there's so many things there and same with home goods home goods i feel like
00:26:28
Speaker
everything under the sun. Yeah, it's just kind of as bland as you can get. So I have a good example that I wrote out and I'm just going to pretend that I am a family portrait photographer and I'm going to describe my ideal client who is actually a real person. She's actually a member of her team and she was our first bride and so she's going to laugh when she hears this.
00:26:48
Speaker
I gave her a name, Jess, because I think it's really good to give your ideal client a person. So Jess is 32 years old and lives in the suburbs between Washington and Baltimore. She's married with two young kids and she's a graphic designer. She loves shopping and discovering new unique intentional finds to add to her home. She loves interior design and has been slowly renovating her home over the past few years.
00:27:10
Speaker
It's mostly light and neutral with a few pops of color. Her walls are filled with a mix of family photos from professional photographers as she really values good imagery. From artists she admires and her own pieces. She shops at places like Nugget, you know, those cute couches for kids. She actually bought a nugget last week. Candlefish and local boutiques. She values time with her family, faith and friendships.
00:27:34
Speaker
Yeah, so a lot more thorough. Well, you can start to like, you can actually look at the places where she's going to see the kind of imagery that they use the kind of like, overall look and feel that they use, you can start to visualize colors for that brand. It just says way more than target and home goods. Sure. And you know, again, just thinking through the customer journey, you can start imagining what kinds of things she gets excited about, you know, what kind of challenges and problems are, you know, might she be facing?
00:28:02
Speaker
You know, and thinking through how you can kind of overcome those, especially when it comes again to your website. Yeah, like your website copy. I hope more at the website side of things, I feel like, which is why my brain always, just for those of you listening, that's why I always drift towards website design examples. Or like the kinds of gifts that you surprise them with when they book with you. Like, we're not fans of just like sending something with your logo on it. We like to send really personal things. That could be a whole nother episode.
00:28:28
Speaker
Okay, sure. I do have a couple questions about that. So like I said at the beginning, I think that this is important to do. I wouldn't let this get you or hang you up from getting started. Oh, yeah. All right. But can you have more than one client avatar? I do. I think that if you're gonna have everything within the same brand, those ideal client avatars are probably gonna be similar. Like, for example, if you're a photographer,
00:28:51
Speaker
You might be targeting brides, but you might also be targeting young moms who, and I think that even though they're different, they probably have some similar interests.
Using Client Avatars Effectively
00:29:00
Speaker
Like Jess, who I described, could still live in the suburbs. If she's a bride, she could love interior design and home and shop at some of the same brands.
00:29:08
Speaker
and have the same values, but they're just slightly different. Sure. And even like maybe some of the problems and challenges he's facing or the things that she really cares about are a little different now, now that she has a family, right? So there's some slight changes there. But overall, there's not massive differences in personalities and
00:29:26
Speaker
Right. I think if your clients are like that different, like if you have a super corporate client and you're also trying to reach like babies, you might just want two different brands in that case. Absolutely. And again, not to go back to the website example, but we typically get a question like, Hey, I do just for the sake of an example, pet photography. And I teach yoga.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, and I teach yoga. That wasn't where I was gonna go. I was gonna go back to wedding photography. But let's say you do pet photography and you teach yoga. Those two things don't belong under the same roof, right? I mean, maybe there's some crazy creative way in which they can do yoga with you. But in general, I mean, and that's why things like family photography and wedding photography could probably live under the same roof, you know, and so many people get married and then they have kids a few years later to
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah. And we certainly had family photography and wedding photography under the same brand for years and years and years. But we wouldn't have wedding photography and pet photography under the same brand. Right. So this kind of thing, I think this kind of exercise starts to help you figure that out. And in some cases, maybe you decide like,
00:30:30
Speaker
Ah, well, I don't really like the pet photography that much. It's not really what I enjoy doing. And so you end up cutting that out, you know, and that can be helpful. And other times, maybe it is creating a new brand under the same, you know, larger business. But I think that's important coming up with multiple client avatars, because, you know, even in website design, or in our business rather, I didn't mean to say website design, but in branding and website design, what we do, we serve creatives, all right, but we serve we serve all sorts of different people.
00:30:58
Speaker
You know, right? I mean, they again, they share certain similar characteristics. But I think we're working with a pet photographer and a doctor right now. So like, yeah. And you know, it's funny, the doctor in particular, like these people find us and we've worked with the dentist before. Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
But the way they find us is because they have a friend in the creative industry who's like, hey, you got to check out this person for website design because dentists and doctors typically don't have pretty websites. Oh, yeah. None of our doctors or dentists have pretty websites.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah, so it's like the dentist we work with, for instance, it's somebody who cares about aesthetics in the same way a creative would, they just happen to be in a different industry. But again, really, the point I was looking at was like, we're working with wedding venues now, we're working with wedding photographers, wedding planners, you know, and so all of them are slightly different. Right.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. So anyways, that was my point. We can move on to the last tip here. And I like ending on this tip because I do think it's one of the more practical tips that we have and that is. Okay. So creating a Pinterest board, but let me just preface this, but like I hesitate to put this on here because I don't want you to do what most people do, which is to pull together a secret Pinterest board and pull together all of the logos and websites and other people's brands that you like.
00:32:16
Speaker
So what should you pull together if it's not other people's stuff?
00:32:21
Speaker
You can include a few, but in general, I think that you want to think about your ideal client. If I'm thinking about Jessa, I think that's what I named her. Just call her Sarah. Sorry, Sarah. If I'm thinking about Sarah, I might even go to her Pinterest board and see what she's pinned. Interior design pins are great sources of inspiration because you can really get a sense of somebody's style and aesthetic through that. If your ideal client has a lot of
00:32:47
Speaker
attitude to you know like because I feel like I mean I'm just thinking about our wedding photography brand used to be right you know somebody who valued you know how their home looks but it was also comfortable right you know and I do think that there's a distinction between somebody who likes nice stuff wants to be comfortable and understands that a house might get a little messy than somebody who wants everything to be pristine all the time and and couches aren't even for sitting
00:33:12
Speaker
Right. And so you can kind of see how that informs your ideal client. Yeah, somebody who doesn't mind the fact that you wear sweatpants a lot. Yeah, we still don't include that. The fact that I walk around in sweatpants 90% of the time is something that I hope is not obvious from our brand. No, I don't think so. But at least they're jQuery ones. Anyways, moving on. So if somebody's painting a lot of beach houses and coastal homes,
00:33:35
Speaker
I would create an entirely different brand than for somebody who has a lot of like West Elm like urban city brands. Like I just picture soft neutral colors versus like maybe poppier colors and like sleeker fonts. And so interior design says a lot about overall style and attitude and colors and all of those things. I would say and I do want to clarify and we should have clarified this with the last point when you're coming up with your client avatar is that your ideal client doesn't have to be a reflection of you. Oftentimes it's not going to be.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, especially if you really want to jump price brackets to a higher one, you might not be your ideal client. So you might be pinning things that are completely different. Yeah. And so I just think that's an important point to make, especially when we start talking about personal brands. I think a lot of confusion around that. And so a personal brand, I think sometimes people assume that means it's all about me.
00:34:27
Speaker
I mean, like the Davey and Krista ideal client is not you. Thanks. Thanks. You heard it here first, folks. No, but I think that's I mean, I think it's important. Even for our wedding photography brand, I'm not sure we would have paid for somebody who had best prices as high as us.
00:34:45
Speaker
Oh, no, probably not. Certainly not when we got married, because when we got married, we had no money. Exactly. Granted, people, if you're wondering, we got married when we were like 21. So like coming up on 10 years now. So it's not like, you know, we had held jobs for a while, right? So not even done college. Yeah. So anyways, I don't even know we're going we're talking about Pinterest, you actually have written a blog post about this that we will update and and re share with this post that walks people through this, right?
00:35:12
Speaker
Right. Another thing I like to do is search for the email newsletters of some of the brands of those ideal clients. So like if somebody says they love West Elm, you can go into Pinterest and search West email newsletter. And those emails tend to have like really good color and font and overall visual examples that are a lot of times a lot even better than the website because websites have to kind of look and function in a certain way, especially if they're an online store. And so they don't always get to have as much personality as they do in emails. But emails are really great
00:35:42
Speaker
way to find like how something looks. Like anthropology has really cool emails but their website isn't always that exciting. So I like to do that. I also like to include in Pinterest boards might like the actual clients work because yes a brand needs to include appeal to your ideal client but it also needs to work around that person's like work. So if somebody is a really dark and moody photographer they're like a light and airy brand might not look so great with their stuff.
00:36:09
Speaker
So it's good to have an example of what kinds of work that person produces. And then this is a fun one. I like to include travel and location photos because one of the questions we ask on our brand questionnaire is if your brand could travel anywhere in the world, where would it go? And so if somebody says their brand would travel to the Maldives, Maldives.
00:36:30
Speaker
This is embarrassing. We should have looked up how to pronounce or you should look at how to pronounce that before we go. Well, we're just going with it. I would envision a high end, minimal, more classically modern brand. Whereas if somebody says their brand to go to the lavender fields in France, I would envision a softer, more like romantic brand. So travel says a lot about a brand. You're just looking at me. I mean, I'm just this is just all a reminder why I don't help as much with the brand design.
00:36:58
Speaker
Oh, I thought you were thinking like this is why she doesn't come on the podcast. That's
Podcast Recording Dynamics
00:37:03
Speaker
not true. I mean, just for the record people, I've told Krista that she's welcome on whenever it just simply took 60 plus episodes for you to get on. I hope it was worth it. Yeah, it's great. It's great. I will say that it's more challenging, I think, recording with you next to me than it is recording with a guest that's maybe thousands of miles away. Is it because we're like so close?
00:37:26
Speaker
No, it's not it's not like the I don't know what it is. I think maybe that there's more pressure for us to like produce this, you know, like for it to be air free.
00:37:37
Speaker
you know what I'm saying? Then in a conversation with a person online who I'm chatting with over the phone. And I'm sure I'm building this all up in my head. Yeah, you probably are. I typically do that. So those are five tips for making the most out of your branding project. Again, keep in mind that
00:37:58
Speaker
It's going to take a certain amount of time for your branding project to be complete. So if you want a new brand for January 1st, now's the time. Actually, probably two weeks ago was the time to reach out to somebody. Of course, there's no magic around that date. It's not like, oh, everybody has to have a new brand ready for January 1st. That's not what I'm trying to say.
00:38:17
Speaker
Our anniversary. Yeah, that is our anniversary. But the point being is that keep in mind that these things do take a little bit of time and feel free to reach out.
Engaging Listeners for Future Topics
00:38:25
Speaker
If there's stuff that we did not cover about brand design that you're interested in learning, either post a comment in the show notes, we will of course share this episode across our social feeds so you can post comments there. But we'd love to hear your questions about brand design and answer those.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yes, we would. So I would end with like, you know, hey, where can people find out more about you? But people already know. All right, so I can skip that part. Krista will be back more regularly. I'm excited for that. Yeah, especially as we talk about website design. So like I said, this is going to be part of a series. I'm not sure if Jess's episode suggests as a copywriter, she's actually already been on the podcast as well. She's coming back talking about five tips for website copy.
00:39:07
Speaker
That interview has already been recorded. I'm not sure if it will be before or after this one, but point being, excited about that one because we do get kind of sidetracked in talking about the about page. She has some really, I think, interesting ways of going about what should be on an about page. I'm excited because I feel like a lot of people tend to do very similar things on their about page.
00:39:26
Speaker
Exactly. And I also just think that website copy is something that people get stuck with. So, excited for that episode. Be on the lookout for that. And then, of course, we'll talk about different aspects of website design as well, especially as we get closer to the new year and as more people have time to work on their business and not just in their business. Cool. I'm excited. Well, thank you for having me, I think. You're welcome. Bye, guys. Bye.
00:39:54
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to dvandchrista.com.