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27 - The Champions #11-17
77 Plays6 days ago
Issues Covered: The Champions #11-17, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #17-18, Incredible Hulk Annual #7
We’re losing our goddamn minds. In the second installment of our marathon record of the entire 1975 run of the Champions, we start falling apart! Were humans even meant to podcast this long?
Topics Discussed:
John Byrne is here! The Two-Gun Kid makes an appearance. Bill Mantlo still the worst. Stilt Man?!? The Stranger?!? Kamo Tharn?!? Hive?!? This is all so stupid (Pat, you can't do this in the description!!) The Champscraft. Former Nazi and avid Beekeeper. Bees everywhere. A bunch of other issues we forgot about. Beast?!? Magneto?!? Dr. Doom?!?Jimmy Carter?!? Vanisher?!? Boy this stays stupid. Spidey?!? The Hulk?!? Terri Sue Bottoms!?!?!? Matt and Pat deliriously sound tf off.
Write in to Pat's Email Corner: mutantmenacepod@gmail.com
Join our new Discord: https://discord.gg/rEwuSmfU
Instagram: @mutantmenacepod
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Transcript
Introduction to Mutant Menace
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Trish Tobey with W.A.R.C. reporting to you live from Westchester, New York, where there appears to be some sort of mutant menace on the loose.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hey, everybody. I'm Matt Allcamp. And I'm Pat Reber. but Say it with us, Pete. wo Welcome. Welcome to Mutant Menace.
00:00:48
Speaker
You were a little slow that time, Pat. I feel like you were a little slow that time. on it. I was fucking on it, bro. Okay. We have two episodes ah where we disagree here in a row.
00:01:00
Speaker
We're each editing one of them. let Let the listeners decide. Okay. Who edited what? Send your guesses in. Yeah, yeah.
Marathon Recording Session
00:01:11
Speaker
Pat, it's been 10 minutes since we stopped recording on the... We pressed stop on the last one. Oh, my God, Matt. That break took so much out of me. What did you do? So, okay, if people haven't heard... this is your first episode... If this is your first episode, God bless you.
00:01:36
Speaker
we We're doing a marathon record. We're doing two episodes in a row, b and each one is ten issues long. So we are fucking losing our minds.
00:01:46
Speaker
ah We started at nine o'clock. It is now 1230. Yeah. um We took a ten minute break. What did you do in the ten minute break? used the Very i i use the restroom i very i I've been drinking some very weak coffee as we work through this, so I filled up my coffee.
00:02:11
Speaker
Okay. um And then, you know, there's like a there's a meme where Quentin Tarantino just kind of looks at things in his house. like a It's a ah series of photos where he is just admiring what appears to be just the paintings that he bought and hung in his own house.
00:02:31
Speaker
Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's what I was doing. That's what I did in our 10 minutes here. And that was exhausting, all of that. And that's all very champions related.
00:02:42
Speaker
Oh, was it supposed to be champions? No, I didn't. I didn't. that No, no. That usually happens after Pat's email corner. so i i was I was smart. I used this brain of mine.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I was like, this is going to be rough. So I'm going to do i'm goingnna do some ref refresh. I'm going to do a refresh here. Okay. I took a quick shower. What?
Technical Issues and Listener Emails
00:03:05
Speaker
Like a very quick hot shower. Is that why our five-minute break turned into a ten-minute break? You said ten minutes. No, I didn't. I said we reconvene exactly at 1230. Okay. wow Well, it was 12.23 at that point. It's not even 12.40 now. so people So people, if you want to see how pedantic my friend Pat is, it's not even 12.40 now.
00:03:28
Speaker
Well, we'll see how that comes out in the edit. okay
00:03:33
Speaker
So I took a very quick shower. I jogged around the block. I chugged a glass of water. Seriously? Yeah. And then I made myself a... ah A second drink of the evening.
00:03:50
Speaker
I don't believe that you jogged around the block. I jogged around the block. I jogged around the block in bare feet and my pajamas because I was like, I don't have enough time. i don't have enough time.
00:04:02
Speaker
You must have looked like a maniac. Yeah, yeah, i bet. I look like a maniac on this recording. Listeners would have been fucking... lose this We are losing our minds already. We haven't even started... yeah That's the wrong music cue! Even our sound guy is all mixed up.
00:04:20
Speaker
Oh, oh, oh my goodness. God, that button. It's time for Pat's email corner. Okay, we've got It sucks that we made our sound guy stay up this whole time just to hit these buttons. All right, go ahead.
00:04:35
Speaker
Well, we need him for when we play yeah our closing theme later. In three hours. We need him to play the Pete sound. need him to play the... Poor guy.
00:04:48
Speaker
Well, I'm sure he's not too... We're paying him like $75 an hour. so I'm sure he's not too yeah pissed about it. Let's go to the mailbox. We have a familiar...
00:05:02
Speaker
I'm cease. all right. So listeners can just to fill listeners in a little bit. Pat just sneezed. We cut it out. We got it out. We don't want to man you to have to listen to it. But Pat sneezed. And I don't want to. i don't want to be the sort of podcast that hides that sort of thing from you guys.
00:05:16
Speaker
I hurt my neck doing it.
00:05:21
Speaker
yeah We're awake too long. Yeah. And I've been sitting in the same chair for this long. ah Okay. Okay. Email number one. We're in the mailbag now.
00:05:33
Speaker
Weapon Jason writes in subject line episode 24. He says, Hey Pat, tell Matt another fine and glorious podcast episode. I'll note. I don't hate inkers, but I am fascinated by how much they can influence the art.
00:05:48
Speaker
Frank Miller gets a ton of credit for daredevil, but Klaus Jansen is doing a lot of the lifting in that run, for example. Fair enough. i mean, I, For listeners who don't know, ah Weapon Jason is one of our regular emailers and he hates, he fucking hates anchors.
Sports References and Nostalgia
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah. If this is your first episode. Yeah.
00:06:08
Speaker
He goes on to say, glad you reacted the to the portrayal of Pierre Trudeau appropriately. Still find it hilarious that it's the Canadian government that is the villain. Love the alpha flight and completely agree with Matt that they get done dirty by Mantlo.
00:06:22
Speaker
You're going off road to discuss living monolith was so funny and worth it. Totally think by this point, every new writer assumes someone else has done the origin and explanation, but then someone realized no one had.
00:06:35
Speaker
So they decided the best place for it was ah the new prestige format of the graphic novel, the same format that will be view you the new mutants and X-Men. and God loves man kills is used to tell a story about this lame ass nobody.
00:06:49
Speaker
Love that they play fair with the hints that Wingard is not who he pretends to be right from the start. Pat still doesn't know, by the way. Nobody tell him. don't know who that is. In light of the upcoming stories, it's all kinds of awesome that the X-Men are teaming up with Power Man and Iron Fist and dealing with the street-level stuff.
00:07:05
Speaker
It's grounding and humanizing. Uh, arcade appearances seem to mostly be about showing off the hero powers, but are weak for actual story progression, which is something you complained about Matt surprised that you didn't go with arcade, putting Pat up against all the Pokemon movies as a nightmare murder scenario.
00:07:24
Speaker
ah Seeing Matt flee from a horny Brock would be something. Oh my God. Yeah. Remember that guy? Fucking Brock. Yeah. Remember, he was so terrible, and we fell so deeply in love with him, and when they replaced him with other guys...
00:07:42
Speaker
but We just were wanted to murder them. Yeah. He goes on to say, we're almost at the end here. He says, I'd say this is the Wolverine and Storm show at this point with Byrne and Claremont showing their favorites.
00:07:53
Speaker
On the Pat Steals and Deals, I remember when VHS tapes were selling for $90 plus dollars in the early 80s. If you remember, Matt, we were outraged at the $220 price tag on this little portable reel-to-reel player.
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah. If you ever wonder why video rental places sprung up, and I'm sure you never have, that's why. You'd have to rent a tape a bunch of times to recoup that cost. i Weapon Jason, you...
00:08:21
Speaker
Definitely have some knowledge that predates us, but please believe that we are the video store generation. We are video store generation. Yeah, that's how I played my N64 games.
00:08:32
Speaker
And a closing thought, if the X-Men are about family, does that make them part of the Fast and Furious franchise? Very funny. Very good, Web of Jason. I do think the Fast and Furious franchise...
00:08:46
Speaker
Needs to step it up. I think their next natural progression, they've already been to space, would be fighting monsters. They've been to space? Yeah, they've been to space. They drove to space in a car.
00:08:58
Speaker
Briefly.
00:09:05
Speaker
Oh, man. So, again, the next... Look, guys, if you... if we should Tell us if we should start a Patreon, and Pat can make me watch the Fast and the Furious movies. Oh, my God.
Casting '70s Fast and Furious
00:09:14
Speaker
i Yeah, love them. And Weapon Jason, I hope you're on the same page with me on that one.
00:09:19
Speaker
Fighting monsters is very good. But the X-Men would also fit in there, I think, if you just absorbed them into that universe.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah. If this were the 70s, I'm sure that we would have one of those comics. Let's move on to another... Do you ever think... Maybe this is for our Patreon-only episodes when Pat and...
00:09:42
Speaker
the The Fast and the Pat and the Matt and the Furious.
00:09:48
Speaker
But ah if this were the 70s, if the the Fast and Furious movies took place in the 70s, who would be the cast? If the Fantastic Four movies took place the would be the cast? No, the Fast and the Furious.
00:10:03
Speaker
uh the i don't really um would that would be charles bronson right yeah he looks like every comic book character
00:10:14
Speaker
um ah like dustin no wait was dustin hoffman 80s i think he was around in the 70s uh sly stallone sly stallone would be in there he's pretty short yeah so he could play wolverine Richard.
00:10:30
Speaker
and What's his name? are bob
00:10:35
Speaker
ah Richard. Richard Harris. Is that the guy who played? um Hmm. No, and don't know who you're talking about, but this one not Richard Harris. A young Arnold Schwarzenegger's rise to prominence was in the mid to late 70s, right?
00:10:51
Speaker
He could easily be with his European accent. Are Peter or Colossus? um what about i'm trying
Obscure Comic Characters and Social Media
00:11:03
Speaker
to think oh roger moore roger moore the james bond actor yeah yeah he's like there he's like the guy who's he's like the he's driving british car i don't know i've never seen the fast and the furious movies who's and we're casting them as x-men you said
00:11:23
Speaker
and We were casting them as Fast and the Furious. Oh, shit. I stopped paying attention to you while I was looking for actors. This is gone. this is going. We're not cutting This this is how tired. ah This has already gone so wrong. We're off the rails. Let's listen to the next. Let's get the next email, Pat.
00:11:40
Speaker
I another familiar emailer, you might even say friend of the podcast email. Michael says, Hey, Pat, tell Matt that once again, I have to do a 180 and offer credit in an episode where I denied it previously.
00:11:53
Speaker
You were 100% right about Sasquatch saying that he's taken hits from the Steelers front four doesn't make a lot of sense. It's possible that he could have taken a hit from another team's defensive lineman on an interception.
00:12:05
Speaker
But that's not like what does this mean? What is that I'm going to stop you right there, Michael, because it is not just not likely, but nearly impossible for a defensive lineman to tackle somebody after an interception. What you're thinking of is an offensive lineman.
00:12:21
Speaker
Although in the 70s, there were a lot of two-way players. So you could have somebody, conceivably somebody from the Steelers, uh, Are we talking about two different things? Could also play on the offensive line. i don't know what you're And then Sasquatch gets an interception. guys I think Pat's lost it.
00:12:39
Speaker
That guy tackles him. from the offensive lineman position. Anyway, i what's more likely is that Chris Claremont and probably Pat is aware of the steel curtain. Of course,
Champions Comic Critique
00:12:51
Speaker
that's what I'm talking about.
00:12:52
Speaker
Active from 1971 into the 80s and stuck in a football reference in a comic in 1979 that readers would be likely to know. This is going to put me to sleep. It doesn't excuse the...
00:13:04
Speaker
the the error. I would like my no prize. i I think it's more noteworthy. He says that Colossus was seen by Sasquatch as less powerful than a football player, even the most famously brutal defensive line in football.
00:13:17
Speaker
However, the very next issue addressed that by pointing out that Colossus was suffering from low self-esteem that limited his power, which we all agree was a great characterization. So well, hold on. they Sorry, that was I finally paid attention to something you said and it was so maybe he really was weaker than mean Joe Green right then.
00:13:38
Speaker
Mean Joe Green, man. um Is that Doc Sampson's nickname? So if I have the power to offer no prizes, Pat gets one for that. Hell yes, I'm going to draw myself a no prize.
00:13:52
Speaker
Thank you. Email Michael. Does Mac get one for pointing out that Colossus's hypnosis induced moniker of the proletarian is an adjective, not a noun? I don't know. After all, invincible is an adjective and a very famous superhero. Even today, he's not the invincible man, Matt. He's just invincible.
00:14:11
Speaker
There's also static, which is possibly a noun in the sense of it being the hissing noise you hear on the radio, but is more likely an adjective used to describe static electricity or static charge. couldn't think of anybody else, but maybe that's because I'm dumb.
00:14:25
Speaker
So I'm just going to leave a second no prize on the table. And if Matt thinks he deserves it, he can have it. um ah I'll we'll decide at the end of this episode whether I get. Yeah, yeah.
00:14:36
Speaker
Or forget it. He signs off. I love this. He signs off with has a line of credit at the shovel store. Email Michael. Very good. Thank you. Email Michael. We're going to move on to who is quickly becoming a regular emailer. oh inc ink Ink is back. The Ink Master says, hey, Pat, tell Matt that the Cheops pronounced Cheops crystal from the living monolith appearance in Power Man and Iron Fist is actually named after the Pharaoh Cheops, better known as the Pharaoh Khufu, who is most well known as the Pharaoh who commissioned the pyramids of Giza.
00:15:13
Speaker
The reason he's also known as Cheops is because it's the Hellenized or Greek version of his name. I could go for some Cheops right now. this um Also, the two of you have gone back and forth on whether you say steals and deals or deals and steals pretty consistently, not just from episode to episode, but often multiple times within the same episode.
00:15:37
Speaker
I don't think that's true. From what I can tell, neither is more correct than the other, though. I personally think steals and deals sounds better from ink. Did we talk about that? Were we arguing about that on in episode 24?
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, because i think you said that Krill's Wilson got it wrong, got it backwards. And I was like, I think we've said it I think we started saying it the one way and then changed to saying it the other way. And Inc.
00:16:08
Speaker
is letting us know we've said it all sorts of ways. But as as we're both pretty sure that... They're wrong. We've been consistent. They're wrong. We've been consistent. We've only ever said it the one way.
00:16:20
Speaker
And actually Crills Wilson's fault. And actually, we're blameless. ah But thank you for your opinion, Inc. Keep writing in. ah Love...
00:16:33
Speaker
to hear your opinions. I love to. I love to. I love so hard. I have one more email for us, Matt. It's ah another big mailbag day. This one is from Eric j Subject line, long-time listener, first-time emailer.
00:16:51
Speaker
Oh, cool. Hey, nice to – Yeah, nice to hear from you, Eric J. Thank you for joining us. Eric J. says, Hey, Pat, tell Matt I actually have a soft spot for Garak the Petrified Man, the sun god. I received a collection of comics from a relative when I was young, and among them was a 1988 Garak story where he also got housed by hubris and bad planning. I'm also a big fan of Captain Ultra in all his ridiculous, pathetic glory.
00:17:16
Speaker
I guess I just love terrible characters. I want them to email us back and let us know. Eric, tell us tell us your favorite Captain Ultra story.
00:17:26
Speaker
yeah I want to read your favorite but a Captain Ultra story. I don't even know where the fuck he comes from. Is he an Amazon comic? don't know who this person is at all.
00:17:37
Speaker
They also go on to suggest, here's an idea. To increase incentive for comments on various platforms, maybe address a comment or two as part of the email corner. Just a thought. Oh, that's smart, Eric. Thank you.
00:17:49
Speaker
Do we get Instagram comments? I'm so tired right now. I'm so tired right now, but yeah, maybe next time. Keep on keeping on and thanks for your very fun podcast. It's been great to learn about the origins of the X-Men without doing the legwork myself. it's like It's like a comic book. Let's play. That's very
00:18:11
Speaker
ah that's very yeah yeah secret Oh, I'm sorry. He doesn't say sincerely. He just signs off. Eric J. P.S.
00:18:23
Speaker
though, they add, I look forward to whatever horrible nickname you grant me. Oh, Eric, you're going to have to email a couple more times. Yeah, I got to say. yeah Eric, that's a little ambitious.
00:18:38
Speaker
We do want you to keep emailing in. Ambitious Eric. No, we can't. We can't. Not yet. We're not going to give them a nickname until we get a couple. We need consistency.
00:18:51
Speaker
Ink's getting a nickname first. And really, it's is you dictate your nickname. Yeah, really. So, like, Weapon Jason knew that was going to be it once he started telling us he was from Canada, right? Or...
00:19:07
Speaker
Email Michael, Magic the Dog. Those are all, they're just obvious. They're obvious. and i mean i And I mean, ambitious Eric's pretty good.
00:19:19
Speaker
It is good. But look, we can't, we cannot. We did not come up with it this episode. Matt, based on the Pat's email corner chatter, how do you think this episode's going to go? and this helps our ah How's our 2 a.m. goal looking?
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. This is a real, it you know, it's a mixed. I can't even. Honestly, I wish our sound guy would play us out and Thank you.
00:19:49
Speaker
I was worried he fell asleep for a second, which I'm not paying him $75. you know Oh, God. All right, Pat. Okay. Champions related now.
00:20:00
Speaker
In the last, ah what, half hour or so? I guess it's been a half hour. And we know what you did for the past 20 minutes of it. And we already explained what you did for the 10 minutes prior to that.
00:20:16
Speaker
ah Yeah. I mean, I guess i was just a little boring and flat. Yeah. yeah
00:20:25
Speaker
Are you going to me? Oh, Matt, did you do anything Champions related this week? I recorded a Champions podcast like just now. Shut up. You know we're not allowed to do that. It literally just did it. It literally just did that. You were there.
00:20:40
Speaker
hate you.
00:20:44
Speaker
All right. Okay. Who's reading this first issue? i can't remember who wrote what. I think you wrote this recap, so I'm going to read the first issue. Yes. Yeah, you go. This is Champions number 11, The Shadow from the Stars.
00:20:58
Speaker
All right. It seems like it should. It seems like it like has the patter of a good issue title, but it does it doesn't. but It doesn't stand up to reading comprehension. No.
00:21:13
Speaker
I think this might be one of my least favorite. Okay. Script by Bill Mantlo. Inks by Bob Layton. Letters by just Patterson. Patterson. Think of a Patterson. That's them.
00:21:25
Speaker
Pat-terson. pat Pat-terson. Patters. Patters on. Get your Patters on. it Keep going. Colors by Warfield. Edited by Archie Goodwin. and Introducing the pencils of John Byrne.
00:21:46
Speaker
Whoa. Bernie. bernie Introducing? Yeah. Do they mean that just for the series? Or is this John Byrne's first work at Marvel? I do not think this is John Byrne's first work at Marvel.
00:21:59
Speaker
Okay. I think he did. Very he exciting. Weird shit. first you know like everybody he's doing like rawhide kid or some shit yeah exactly exactly that's what everybody does or just something you've never heard like the uh the the magic knight with the four hands or something what release date november 16th 1976 for context x-men number 103 the leprechaun issue yes that came out this exact same day excellent
00:22:30
Speaker
The champions are in a flying car. And it's plummeting to the ground. Out of control. Warren yells at Black Widow to fix it. And she tries to regain control.
00:22:43
Speaker
he's he's just She's pulling up as hard as she can. And going, do something.
00:22:51
Speaker
Bill Foster, brilliant scientist and also the hero Black Goliath, notices his invention malfunctioning from the deck of a skyscraper. He grows large enough to catch it and explains that whoever built this used cheap parts.
00:23:06
Speaker
No one knows who he is, but he's here, and that's what's important to the story. um It's funny. Okay, so Black Goliath, he was an Avengers side character in the 1960s.
00:23:17
Speaker
yeah Just a guy named Bill Foster, Avengers side character. He was a scientist working with Tony Stark and Hank Pym. He came back in ah Power Man 24, very, very close to this.
00:23:30
Speaker
Right. um Like, like, yeah, yeah. That's like within the past year. Exactly. Yeah. And that is where he became Black Goliath. um Then he was in a short lived solo series written by Jenny Isabella, who did issue one. And then Chris Claremont.
00:23:50
Speaker
Did the next four until it was canceled after issue five. Oh, geez. Of course it was. They'll change his name to giant man in like three years. But right now he's black Goliath. And what's funny about him here is he looks like a nor he doesn't look like a giant man.
00:24:04
Speaker
He looks like a normal sized man playing with action figures. And it's. Ghost Rider, meanwhile, is riding his motorcycle through a canyon out west when he runs across a cattle stampede.
00:24:20
Speaker
Luckily, who's there to calm the stampede down? But Hawkeye and two gun kid who have teamed up to patrol the West, I guess.
00:24:31
Speaker
this When we say yeah we say the West, we mean like the the American cowboy West. Yeah, yeah. Who's two gun kid? ah The two gun kid, Matt, I can't believe you don't know this, is a time traveling cowboy who is 100 plus years old.
00:24:48
Speaker
Okay. At this time, hes his name is Matt Hawk, but eventually that's retconned to Matt Leibowitz. Okay. He joined the Avengers for a time too, right? ah Yeah, but not a good time.
00:25:01
Speaker
Okay. And um I just I have to assume this is part of some other series. I have to assume that this Hawkeye two gun kid thing. This is a tie into like another series.
00:25:12
Speaker
I think although the way they play it off here makes it seem like this is just how they left Hawkeye in the Avengers. And we're just to assume they're having the adventures in the West.
00:25:23
Speaker
And in this era, we see them do that all the time. It's just like they leave a character dangling somewhere and then they'd show up in a fucking random ass. We read through five years of X-Men comics that way.
00:25:38
Speaker
All right. So these these cowpokes are wondering what could be spooking these cows so bad when a UFO touches down. Warren sees the news of a UFO and all the champions go out to look at it themselves.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, Warren has apparently invented the Google News alert. He's got a machine that just turns on the news for him anytime there's something that champions would be interested in. Yeah, yeah.
Deep Dive into Champions Issues
00:26:07
Speaker
um Darkstar joins and everyone seems to think to themselves, wait, is ah she on the team?
00:26:14
Speaker
Except for Bobby, who's thinking ah just like so horny. erection or whatever back back in the west a bunch of cowboys seem to be under mind control and are attacking ghost rider hawkeye the two-gun kid and all their cowboy friends and porter mac is there is porter mac there i hope i wish they don't even the names on every one of these cowboys now
00:26:42
Speaker
they gotta join this loser league they quickly discover that some sort of shadow beings are possessing them and start using the power of light and hellfire to ward them off.
00:26:57
Speaker
Like Hawkeye is a light arrow or fucking whatever. Yeah. yeah because it's a It's like a ah what do you call it? Flare. It's a flash arrow. Oh, yeah. Turns out this is Warlord Ka from old Avengers issues back with all his friends and a new set of powers.
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah. What? Why? Why not just make a new character that can do this rather than, ah it's an old guy, but he's entirely completely different. And then we have to sit through an origin story for him.
00:27:28
Speaker
Oh, my God. Yeah, it's horrible. The champions show up and try to fight the shadows, which is pretty stupid. Hercules gets briefly possessed. Meanwhile, we've got a plan.
00:27:40
Speaker
Ghost Rider lights up one of Hawkeye's arrows with his hellfire. Warren lifts Hawkeye up in the air above the flying saucer and Hawkeye shoots the arrow into a thermal exhaust port because he learned how to do this shooting womp rats back home.
00:27:57
Speaker
It's just like it. Yeah, yeah. um Blowing the ship and all the shadows inside to bits. this town The town thanks them, but before they can celebrate, Bill Foster contacts them with an emergency.
00:28:08
Speaker
Stilt Man is in town. Oh my god. ah So those were actually shadows? are Like, what? They were...
00:28:21
Speaker
ah Yeah, what? yeah Yeah, what? Light made them go away. and Angel beat one by flying so high that it got too small and popped away. Yeah, yeah because there was no there's nowhere to be a shadow in space.
00:28:43
Speaker
I guess. No, I think it was that the higher he got, the smaller his shadow got. And thus, the smaller the demon possessing his shadow, the shadow creature possessing him through his shadow. doesn't make it doesn't make any fucking sense.
00:29:02
Speaker
Also, Bobby is again in love with a woman who doesn't is not interested. oh my God. She just doesn't care. It's not like it's so he's clearly he saw Dark Star and was like, my, that's my girlfriend.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah. And now he's like, he's, it's not that she's disinterested. She's showing him some interest. It's just that she is very clearly saying like, Hey, now's not the time to discuss if, if you have a crush, it we're fighting aliens.
00:29:32
Speaker
Uh, yeah. Let's focus on that. Yeah. Yes. It's very, it's just, okay. I got to talk about some other things that annoy me about this. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of them. Okay. Okay.
00:29:46
Speaker
First, Bill Mantlo, are we, granted, 1976, but by 1976, we must already be tired of the trope of any time two women are sharing a story together, they have to be jealous of each other's looks. Oh, right.
00:30:06
Speaker
And powers and the attention they're getting and stuff. Ridiculous. It's horrible. mean, we don't expect much more from Bill Mantlo. Black Widow's like, oh, she's so pretty. Everyone thinks she's prettier than me. And oh, she's got more powers than me. And everyone likes her and hates me.
00:30:23
Speaker
Fuck off, dude. That is not what Black Widow would ever think, ever. It is funny that every one of their characters or every one of the team has their own personal motivations for being like, wait, is she on the team? I don't remember a discussion about her being on the team. ah But it's all petty.
00:30:46
Speaker
But the the idea of her just inviting herself to join the team is like, like that's what the champions is, right? They see Ghost Rider just like off doing. And remember when they formed the team, Ghost Rider wasn't there.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah. And now they just see him on the news and they're like, oh, his team's got. and There must just be so many times during this period where somebody, one of these guys, one of these heroes is doing something.
00:31:15
Speaker
And suddenly five dudes show up and they're like, hey, your team's here. And they're like, what? Leave me alone. I'm riding my motorcycle.
00:31:26
Speaker
I'm not on your team. What are you talking about? It's so they don't. is a For all we know, Ghost Rider, he hasn't acknowledged even that he's on a team.
00:31:37
Speaker
Exactly. They're following him places. Exactly. And that's what all of them are doing to each other. There's like, oh, one of our teammates is in trouble. No, it's just a guy, you know, you're you're taking too many cues from Bobby Drake, who every time he sees a girl says, that's my girlfriend.
00:31:56
Speaker
Every time you see a hero, you're like, that's my teammate.
00:32:02
Speaker
You've never you've yeah right. You've never met Beta Ray Bill before. Shut up. Did Hawkeye say that? Did he he's on your team?
00:32:17
Speaker
ah Two Gun Kids says what in Thunderation at one point. What in Thunderation? What in Thunderation? but That's nothing.
00:32:31
Speaker
i'm so tired, Bill Mantlo. You can't. Stop putting this in front of me. I... There is... it okay the last panel we see is Bill Foster warning everyone that Stiltman is coming.
00:32:51
Speaker
Yeah. If you don't know who Stiltman is, it's because there is no reason for him to be in comics. He is... in in more modern Daredevil and Spider-Man comics, he is brought in as a joke, as but a man who can just...
00:33:10
Speaker
Extend his legs to extreme distances. But that's absolutely it. amy sea level root Any any street-level villain can beat Stiltman. Stiltman, right.
00:33:24
Speaker
sad. Yes. i A couple panels earlier, we're closing out the comic. We're at the end. They've saved the day. They take a full panel to have a background character say, hey thanks.
00:33:37
Speaker
Anyone could have taken care of this, but you were the ones that got here first. That's what really matters. And it's played like ah like a sincere moment. We're supposed to find this sweet. There's no irony to this. It's entirely like when your ah your parent comes to see your your parent comes to see your ah your your little theater show And they say, well it looks like you guys were having fun up there.
00:34:05
Speaker
Yeah. You guys put so much work into this.
00:34:13
Speaker
All right. Let's. Let's hear. Let's hear a thing or two from Pat Reber about champions number 12. How about we hear. A thing won to, because it's champions number 12.
00:34:29
Speaker
These are the jokes. You get it. One in the morning. Did someone say the stranger? Matt. No, hold on. I'm checking the script. I don't.
00:34:44
Speaker
No, I don't think we didn't write the stranger. I don't remember either of us either like riffing the word the stranger. Last time we said the stranger was probably an episode what, 10?
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah. When he comes back? Yeah, Bill, sorry, no, neither of us said it. Yeah. Sorry, bud. So let's move on to Champions 13.
00:35:07
Speaker
Also, hold on. I want to stop back. i That made me remember something from the last issue, which is at one point, there is an editor's note that's like,
00:35:18
Speaker
When they first show Bill Foster, he's like wondering who this dude on the roof deck is. Well, you could skip to page three, but then you admit, hey, listen, you don't know what I'm going through right now. please Don't do not give me permission to skip a page. she good i I have to read this. ah You don't understand.
00:35:42
Speaker
I would love to skip it. I'd be skipping pages left and the right. I'd skip all these pages. would skip. Only the odd numbered pages. I'd skip basically every page, to be honest.
00:35:54
Speaker
All right. Bill Mantlo, writer, John Byrne, artist, Bob Layton, inker, A. Koweki, letterer, D. Warfield, colorist, and A. Goodwin, editor. Some Koweki.
00:36:05
Speaker
Just a Koweki.
00:36:09
Speaker
Release date December 1976. Cover date March 1977. The champions arrive in their champion car or whatever they're calling it while Black Goliath is still on the roof fighting Stiltman.
00:36:23
Speaker
He never left the roof. He never left the roof from the beginning of last issue. Like, they left, and he was like, I'll stay here, I guess. They forgot to leave the roof unlocked.
00:36:35
Speaker
yeah And he's just trapped on roof. Guys. Guys. And now friggin' Stilt Man's here?
00:36:46
Speaker
Damn it! I also love the idea that he's on the roof. Stiltman was just like, where the hell's Bill Foster? Extended up to his level. ah They fight for a while. Both sides legitimately confused about how they can't beat each other.
00:37:05
Speaker
While a lady named Regina Claiborne runs around with a box. It's like, it's like, i don't know if it's supposed to be funny. I think it might be, but it is legitimately funny that they're like, why are we losing to stilt man? and And stilt man's like, why am I losing to these heroes? And they both say it so many times during the fight.
00:37:27
Speaker
Like, why am I losing to these, like, dorks? Nobody respects each other. And the way that they have to make the stilt man win a fight is like Hercules and Angel both happen to stand right in front of where his feet are. And he extends them. Extends them to give him a huge kick.
00:37:48
Speaker
A big kick. The worst. ah Stilt man gives up and runs away, but Black Goliath chases him while the champions go inside and talk to Regina. He chases...
00:38:00
Speaker
Very funny that he chases him. He's like, I've got a score to settle. This guy beat my ass last time. Don't tell anybody you got beat by Stiltman, dude. That's, it's in it's as embarrassing to the people hearing it as it is to you. So please just keep that to yourself.
00:38:16
Speaker
The champions go inside and talk to Regina. She tells them that the box has some kind of power. Her husband stole it from Stark International. And that's what Stiltman was after. He's unfortunately choosing to write this character in jive.
00:38:31
Speaker
Oh my God. And bad, like really bad jive too. Like she says something like, Yeah, it's like he done oh yeah he done stole this box. He done stole this box. That is not.
00:38:44
Speaker
No, that has never been part of that. ah the The mechanics of that yeah vernacular. Yeah. But before we can get too concerned about that, the stranger appears out of a hole in space time and tells them that he needs the box or the solar system will be destroyed. Who's the stranger, Pat?
00:39:04
Speaker
The stranger, if you remember, Matt, is ah God. He is the Christian God represented. chief He fought Magneto one time. Twice. Twice.
00:39:18
Speaker
And chased him once. This was back in the Stan Lee, Jack Kirby days. And clearly the two of them agreed that this was God. The character God had come to fight the X-Men.
00:39:32
Speaker
and It was pretty clear that editorial was like, you can't put God in a comic, you guys. just We're not doing that. They would say the same thing to Jenny Isabella 20 years later. That's right.
00:39:46
Speaker
So he is just an extremely powerful, extradimensional being known only as the stranger. With weird hair. and Weird hair. It used to be like Einstein hair. Now it's more like he's got like a twirly mustache and a crew cut.
00:40:05
Speaker
The team does not listen to the stranger's warning. They just attack him. Yeah. The fights like Dark Star blasts him and he blasts back. So Iceman gets all Lorna Daney on him while Ghost Rider tells them to stop because he doesn't perceive any threat.
00:40:22
Speaker
All this is happening while Black Goliath is on TV on the news. fighting stilt man and it's actually hilarious yeah it's so funny there's what there's a point where they're like he's losing he's actually losing to stilt man and then the next time you see him they're like he's ripped his legs off and he's beating him with it yeah yeah the reporter's like oh wait a second he's torn his leg off and now he's beating him about the head with it so it's very good and it's like
00:40:56
Speaker
You're only seeing bits of it through the television, too. It's completely from the perspective of the the news report. it's It's very, very funny.
00:41:07
Speaker
Also, Pat, why is the stranger back? Who asked for this? He's... Well... He explains, Matt. He actually created the bomb and now he feels bad that he created the bomb because he doesn't want to blow up the earth. So he came back to stop it from activating.
00:41:25
Speaker
Okay. All right. Fine.
00:41:29
Speaker
Meanwhile, the box starts growing and sucks Regina inside. The stranger tells them the box is called the Null Life Bomb. N-U-L-L, not K-N-U-L-L.
00:41:42
Speaker
Null Life Bomb. He made it, but regrets it because he's good now, and the box expands until it's the size of a star system, then suddenly collapses, crushing everything. That's a, you know, like a bomb does.
00:41:54
Speaker
Right. Much like a bomb, it... contracts very quickly. It grows really big. oh it grows really big and it's like intangible so that everything can be inside it. And then it's tangible all of a sudden and then contracts really small like a bomb.
00:42:12
Speaker
As... The bomb continues to grow. The stranger transports the champions across space to some weird place that Hercules recognizes as the lair of Camo Tharn.
00:42:24
Speaker
Whoever this is, he's mad that Hercules stole his rune staff and is going to kill them all with gorilla men.
00:42:32
Speaker
To be continued. Camo Tharn? Who the fuck? Camo Tharn. is apparently a Thor villain that Hercules teamed up with Thor to help beat and steal his staff.
00:42:47
Speaker
And then they put the staff... Well,
Swarm's Bizarre Origin
00:42:49
Speaker
we'll find out. But, alright. ah Okay, there's a point where... They're attacking the stranger.
00:42:59
Speaker
This whole issue is just what the fuck is going on at every moment, right? And yeah there is a point where they're fighting the stranger. They shouldn't be. They just do it for no reason.
00:43:11
Speaker
um And it starts with a black... What is her name?
00:43:23
Speaker
Darkstar. It starts with Darkstar firing darkness, like ah doing a darkness blast to blind the stranger. And he says, how can you blind one that can see in the blackness of interstellar space?
00:43:40
Speaker
him What? In space, you just see the light. In space, you just see the light through the space. Right. If he's not blinded by darkness, then he's... Then there would be no... but Space wouldn't be black.
00:43:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, space is black because eventually we can't see... we We're looking so far that there's no light that we can that reaches us. Yeah.
00:44:09
Speaker
If he doesn't find an absence of light to be blinding, then what space is just... How can blind one that can see in the blackness of interstellar space? How can you blind one that can see in the blackness of interstellar space? Yeah, no, I... It doesn't make... it does it it I don't think you can see in the blackness of interstellar space because you're just in a void.
00:44:31
Speaker
Right, but he's what he's saying is he can see through darkness, which is the absence of light. So he doesn't require light to see, which first of all doesn't make any sense. But if that's his superpower, a lot of superpowers don't make sense.
00:44:46
Speaker
If one of his superpowers is he doesn't require light to see, yeah that means that everything that is in front of him for infinity, he can see.
00:44:57
Speaker
we So in every direction is just a cluster of asteroids and planets dust and... Because he doesn't require light.
00:45:10
Speaker
He doesn't require their light. Well, he is God. Yeah, you're right. Okay. Yeah, you're right. ah Why am I being this way? You're right. I shouldn't be this way to God. Okay, another... Here's another...
00:45:24
Speaker
pedantic little note. huh Again, we have a narrator that shows up for the first time in the third act of the story.
00:45:36
Speaker
You gotta imagine some guy running in being I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Where are we? Where are they? I got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. The stranger. He is here. let's have stranger and ah yeah he he
00:45:53
Speaker
is here
00:45:55
Speaker
um so stupid at one point yeah we are so we can't i know how tired we are and the listeners know how tired we are but we can't just resort to say everything's stupid it's stupid let's move on We have to still make our jokes an observation.
00:46:26
Speaker
All right. Go ahead. Go ahead, Matt. What's your joke that's so important? This is fucking stupid. if it What next? it
00:46:40
Speaker
All right. Bill Mantlo. All right. There's a thing that's bothering me about these comics. It's just that Bill Mantlo seems to believe that if there is a character on a page, we have to hear a line of dialogue from them. So there's so many times where there's like four people on a page and they just like either they all take turns saying basically what it should be one sentence. Yeah.
00:47:00
Speaker
Like, oh, here he comes and he's in the room and he won't stop until he gets here. Like, those are three separate sentences. Those are different people saying those things. Or, yeah, like, people are like, oh, my God. And somebody else is like, buy my mace. And somebody else is like, holy smokes. Like, they're like, you don't have to do this.
00:47:22
Speaker
It's stupid. It's so much worse than what I was complaining about last issue where Angel was just striking a bunch of thriller poses. like it's I would rather that than him try to sp make things more dynamic by making everybody talk at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:43
Speaker
There's...
00:47:47
Speaker
ah There's a moment okay where... And this is dumb. This is petty. But you described it earlier. Stiltman falls down, but he extends his legs to kick i or to to kick Hercules. And when Hercules gets kicked, his exclamation is Zeus when he's hit.
00:48:07
Speaker
That's his dad. That's his dad. That's essentially the equivalent of me getting punched in the face and shouting, Dad!
00:48:16
Speaker
Or your dad's name. Bob. Yeah. Bob. Robert. Ronald.
00:48:29
Speaker
All right. I want to hear. is. donny well yeah sorry there's one more good moment uh think you noted this but where ghostwriter is basically writing our notes for us he's just like why are we going about it this way this this doesn't sense this is stupid it's yeah he's like yeah like man angel seems bad at this wait
00:48:57
Speaker
i Warren Commission. Oh, okay. yeah He hasn't done anything in a little while, but in this episode, he, or in this issue, he seems to trigger an allergic reaction in Stiltman.
00:49:13
Speaker
He flies up. He's just trying to like distract him by flapping his wings in his face. And Stiltman's like, oh, my eyes. You're really irritating my eyes. I just never brought back up.
00:49:26
Speaker
Oh, that's I didn't even notice that. But that is that is a very I do wonder if Bill Mantlo was trying to be funny in this issue. Like, is it possible? Is it even possible?
00:49:37
Speaker
I don't care. It's not. It's with and I'll trust that I will rant about this at 3 a.m. m when we're wrapping up this recording session. But if that's what he's doing, it's still not meeting the moment.
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, Pat, I would really, really, really like to tell you about Champions Number 13. Yeah, that one was stupid. Let's move on.
00:50:05
Speaker
Stupid. Done. Next.
00:50:11
Speaker
Alright, Champions Number 13, The Doom That Went On Forever. Does the five-year-old write this title?
00:50:25
Speaker
oh fuck how did bill mantlow uh see through time to witness this podcast
00:50:35
Speaker
all right bill mantlow is the writer john burns the artist bob layton is the inker irving watanabe is the letterer bruce patterson and so guess it wasn't it wasn't for patter's son
00:50:50
Speaker
And George Russo's colorist. Archie Goodwin's the editor on this on this one. I don't think I knew that I Watanabe's full name was Irving Watanabe.
00:51:01
Speaker
I think he was credited as Irv a bunch of times. I love that name.
00:51:08
Speaker
Irving. Irving. Irving. Um...
00:51:17
Speaker
it does It's going to get worse from here, guys. Release date, February 15th, 1977. Holy crud! That's the Champions News Skyscraper HQ. But what's that thing growing out of the top of it? And where in blazes are the Champions?
00:51:35
Speaker
Bill Foster sets the scene for us this time from the street below. Fresh back from humiliating stilt man on the local news, he begins to climb the building to investigate when he finds himself sucked into the expanding world killer.
00:51:51
Speaker
He does. i love that he says, i'm i got to go King Kong mode. <unk> Climbing the side of the skyscraper. Starts with holy crud and then says, i got to go King Kong mode.
00:52:02
Speaker
I can't believe he didn't join. the What a bad call not to have him join the team. Put him on the champions. Put him on the team.
00:52:13
Speaker
He's the best one. You're like science guy. You're science consultant. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's the best one so far.
00:52:24
Speaker
Cut to somewhere in space where the champions are confronted by Kamotharn and his army of orange monkey tiger men. As they fight, Darkstar senses a fading portal created by the stranger and uses her powers to expand it.
00:52:39
Speaker
Bobby notices and the two of them fly through space together until they reach Earth, kind of. you're You're oversimplifying it, Matt.
00:52:49
Speaker
Okay, all right, please, tell me. it's If you had written this, what would what would you have put? Darkstar encases herself in dark power as she flies out.
00:53:02
Speaker
Bobby is like, oh, Darkstar's leaving, i should follow her so we can get some alone time. Realizes that he's just creep gone into the void of space, and so he...
00:53:14
Speaker
Has to create his own protective ice ball around him and then hope to ride the current of Darkstar's traveling orb.
00:53:26
Speaker
And space has no water, so he has to create this right from his own body moisture, like his piss. Yeah.
00:53:36
Speaker
He's got to piss and spit. He's like, I gotta use my body moisture. i gotta pull from my own body. Meaning. piss um so bobby in his piss bubble and uh dark star in her dark bubble are flying down to earth the rest of the champions are left to fight camo tharn while his lair becomes molten and filled with more terrifying monsters This was so confusing to me. We'll get to why. Cut to Bill Foster entering the void of the bomb and meeting the stranger.
00:54:09
Speaker
His first thought is to smash the box this thing came in. But the box has thought of that. It sends some mechanoids that he's no match for to beat him up.
00:54:22
Speaker
Bobby and Darkstar show up and explain that the staff they need is still on Earth. Quickly grab it and start saving the world. It's just like in a broom closet or whatever. Yeah, they they just he opened up a portal to with the place where the staff actually is instead.
00:54:37
Speaker
And it's also, it's just like a hobby horse. Yeah, yeah. It's like a mop handle with a a horse's head on top. Yeah. The champions are losing badly as Camo Tharn's monsters continue to grow in both size and threat until, that is, Warren realizes this is all an illusion.
00:54:58
Speaker
yeah my god We've seen this plot kind of this kind of plot contrivance several times, and never has it been done worse than here. It's just, it is they are losing, and then there's one panel where Warren's like, wait, what if I just don't do anything?
00:55:18
Speaker
Yeah, he thinks really, really hard, and suddenly all the monsters are gone, and like, that is... At that point when he's doing that, he's not like, wait, I don't think this is real. He's like, wait, I don't want this to be true. And if I think really hard, maybe it won't be.
00:55:35
Speaker
So fucking weird. and And it's it's over the course of two panels. It's not like there's – it's just – Yeah. like it And the fight was most of the issue.
00:55:45
Speaker
And there was one panel where it was just like on either side of the page – There was just like a weird panels that didn't make sense. Oh, yeah. Because I guess it was trying to hint to us that they never – that this was not real. But I was just confused. It's – there's no – there's – yeah.
00:56:06
Speaker
It's stupid. This is Looking back on it, that's artistically trying to – yeah, you know what Let's move on. Yeah.
00:56:17
Speaker
It's unearned. Yeah. He tells the rest of the team and they do the same thing. Warren beats up Kamo Tharn. One problem. How are they supposed to get back to Earth? Yeah. Speaking of Earth, the plan to stop the bomb is successful. Turns out it's only dangerous when the bomb can contracts.
00:56:34
Speaker
So they just use the magic wand to expand it for a really, really, really long time. The whole universe exists in this bomb now. Should be fine. The end. end. Also, the champions get back to Earth.
00:56:48
Speaker
ah Unclear how, but they're there in the final frame. Yeah, I don't. um
Champions Issue Dissection Concludes
00:56:55
Speaker
Hey, look, you Pat, I'm going to highlight a note in our notes that you are allowed to say because you wrote it before we got sleepy.
00:57:03
Speaker
Thank you. This was so stupid. Shut up.
00:57:08
Speaker
How does any of this work? why is None of it. it how did How did the champions get back to Earth? What was this portal and why did it lead them into space instead of hey back to the place they needed to be? i have a question.
00:57:24
Speaker
Why is space an MC Escher pencil drawing? I have a question. What is the point of this whole series? God, it's...
00:57:38
Speaker
Every issue is... We wanted to, like, learn what Angel and Bobby were up to, and it the question could have been answered with nothing.
00:57:49
Speaker
Yeah. They're going to college. Nothing. They're just doing nothing. It doesn't matter. You're fine. But the it doesn't matter. None of this has any... This doesn't matter. None of it matters.
00:58:00
Speaker
No impact. It is the classic everything is back to normal at the end Marvel mid-70s comic. i But also clearly for children. I'm getting ahead of myself.
00:58:14
Speaker
the The one thing I'll say is that it does – It does underline an Iceman trait. Just this absolute. He just keeps doing this. Right. He's like, he's just he's like, oh, my girl is going. i got a chase after her What?
00:58:31
Speaker
She doesn't. She doesn't know you.
00:58:35
Speaker
Don't chase her in a ball of piss. She doesn't know you
00:58:41
Speaker
It's also, dude.
00:58:46
Speaker
You might not have gone through this yet, but so don't bring piss around until you're you're pretty exclusive. This is going to be, this basically, you're considering, she's not, but you're considering this your first date.
00:59:00
Speaker
And you're bringing piss to it. You're covering yourself in piss.
00:59:06
Speaker
And spit. And it keeps saying pheromones, and we're like, Bobby, come on. Stop. ah So, yeah, I mean, yeah, basically nothing here happened. And, okay, it's also...
00:59:21
Speaker
He can't think of character arcs. So it's just, oh my God. So-and-so is in love with so-and-so. So-and-so is jealous of so-and-so. So-and-so feels left out by so-and-so. Like, that's it.
00:59:35
Speaker
There's no real emotions. They spend the entire issue coordinating as a team, stopping a threat. And then it is the last panel that suddenly all the champions are just...
00:59:47
Speaker
looking at each other suspiciously and they have thought bubbles above their head going like, i don't know if I like this guy actually. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's no reason for it.
00:59:58
Speaker
Yeah. Can I belong here? When I don't belong anywhere? but Just a bunch of forced emotion into the very end to say, like, the story's over, but... Ghost Rider's secretly in love with Black Widow, it seems.
01:00:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, what? and Like, what? Come on, dude. Think of us one other plotline. One! One other plotline! Think of one new one. He also hates...
01:00:27
Speaker
Dark Star for absolutely no reason. Yeah, maybe maybe that is the reason. But he just like for absolutely no good. Yeah.
01:00:37
Speaker
Reason. He's just like, i don't trust that Dark Star. In like four issues from now, the last issue of the series, he'll explain it and it doesn't make any more sense. yeah It doesn't make it better.
01:00:49
Speaker
No.
01:00:52
Speaker
Alright. Pat, do you want to tell me about Champions number 14? Actually, before we do, just a quick Warren commission. He beats up a few illusions and one blind man.
01:01:06
Speaker
Champions number 14. The creature called Swarm. I like Swarm. use He's not called Swarm yet.
01:01:17
Speaker
Not in this issue, but He's swarm and he's here. And ah this is his first appearance ever. he's That is surprising.
01:01:31
Speaker
Because it's more exciting than I expected it to be. Champions bird of the so many new characters. Dark Star. So swarm. um The new Crimson Dynamo.
01:01:45
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's pretty much it. Yuri Petrovich.
01:01:50
Speaker
ah We open in media res as Hercules fights the defense of the Champions HQ. Hold on, you is gay and if you didn't give the credits. Oh, you're right. Now I got to do it right.
01:02:02
Speaker
and we can do yeah Bill Mantlo and John Byrne, writers, storytellers, and artists, respectively. Only joint storytellers credit on this whole thing. which is might be why we like this a little more.
01:02:17
Speaker
Mike Esposito, anchor, Irv Watanabe, letterer, Glynis Ween, colorist. We love her. yeah Archie Goodwin, yeah editor. He's a, yeah, he edits, uh,
01:02:30
Speaker
Ye editor. If somebody, if Ye has an editor, they are doing a bad fucking job. jeez. I didn't even, Released date April 19th, 1977. Cover date July 1977. Sorry, when somebody mentions Kanye West, I start just moving in the other direction, but that was that was a very good joke. You start just saying dates. Yeah.
01:02:57
Speaker
ah Okay. We open in medias res as Hercules fights the defense systems of the champions HQ that has designated him a threat.
01:03:09
Speaker
Iceman putting on a new outfit and talking to himself in the mirror sees this and rushes to help. I'm sorry, Iceman, but this outfit is not going to be taken more seriously.
01:03:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At the bay, Widow, Darkstar, and Blaze are saying goodbye to Ivan, who claims he's going to find his son Yuri, but it turns out is actually secretly being taken prisoner by the Russians.
01:03:34
Speaker
This never comes back up. Nope, never. Along with the little kid, never revisits. But on the other end of the docks, a guy who looks kind of like the penguin from Batman is carrying a secret suitcase when a crate explodes next to him and he's attacked by giant bees. Yes!
01:03:53
Speaker
Yes. The team leaps into action and it turns out the bees are robots. Yes! While they fight and Ghost Rider yells at Darkstar, a hooded figure whose body seems to be made of bees approaches the fat bald man with the suitcase.
01:04:10
Speaker
The man calls the bees man Von Meier and then gets stung to death but the but the figure can't pick up the suitcase because it has bug repellent on it.
01:04:21
Speaker
Yes!
01:04:24
Speaker
He flees. My one weakness. He flees. The champions come over and discover the suitcase and that the dead man was an Interpol agent.
01:04:36
Speaker
They call champions. h best They call a champions HQ, but no one picks up. ah Back at HQ, Iceman and Hercules are fighting the security system when Rampage's empty armor seems to come to life and fight them too.
01:04:51
Speaker
Iceman tricks the armor into punching out the building's main power source and all the machines stop. They discover that just like their plane, the building has been made from faulty materials.
01:05:05
Speaker
Just then, Ghost Rider, Black Widow, and Dark Star get home and they all start arguing when Angel crashes through the window in a panic. He points out the window where a massive army-sized swarm of bees is coming right for them.
01:05:19
Speaker
Good issue. To be continued. Good issue. Yeah, it was pretty good. I'll give him that. Good issue. um Natasha calls out Johnny for being sexist and she calls out Iceman for not or yeah, Iceman for not answering the phone.
01:05:37
Speaker
Yes. the industry had seen It's a different time. Answering the phone was considered a very important thing. you know, I've gotten like 20 spam calls today.
01:05:50
Speaker
written it You just got one. No, it it usually ends around 8 p.m. But I think somebody that doesn't like me put on put me on a call list or something.
01:06:02
Speaker
It happens all the time. Huh? don't know. Mutant Menace Pod at gmail.com. Do you get spam calls and do you enjoy them or not? Do you enjoy spam calls?
01:06:13
Speaker
Let us know. That's the question. Also, you get spam calls? 20 per day? i I've never gotten that many. I've gotten like two at most. There's a very fun moment where Bobby sees Rampage's activated costume walking towards him. And he says, somehow the computer's activated it and is using it to strike it. but all yeah Instead of reacting, he takes the time to explain what's happening to Hercules.
01:06:44
Speaker
ah and And then later he outsmarts an empty suit of armor. God, um it's them fighting the security system is just underlining how every superhero loves to put steel tentacles in their walls.
01:07:02
Speaker
Just to stick out. These ones are for are for harming. The last ones we saw were for helping.
01:07:15
Speaker
I think John Byrne is doing his best and there's a lot of really cool images here. yeah One that is not having the impact he wants to is dead man with lumpy face.
01:07:30
Speaker
you whisper He already had a big old melon head and now he just looks like a sack of fingerling potatoes on top of a suit. it does not look serious in any way. It made me laugh a lot.
01:07:45
Speaker
The whole concept is very funny. Just the... i Just a bunch of bees. and Just a bunch of bees. And people being like, it's bees! And Sue, yeah. It is terrifying, don't get me wrong. Superheroes having to fight bees is a good... like that's good
01:08:05
Speaker
Right, like, my powers have... they They've taken down Thanos and they've taken down ah ah armies of men. but i don't know what to do about some bees! second I guess we'll start punching them one by one.
01:08:23
Speaker
yeah um Did you notice that Champion's Tower is like a legitimate skyscraper? Yeah. And there are
01:08:36
Speaker
Dozens, if not hundreds of windows on this tower that at that moment are on. Like that have a light on in the window.
01:08:50
Speaker
Who's working? Who's working in this tower? else is doing stuff? Maybe they just do it. They got to be on a timer, right? Why have that many rooms? why do you have that many rooms?
01:09:01
Speaker
You're renting them out? Well, he had to build a skyscraper so that he could call it Champion's Tower. Yeah. They call their a little Fantasticar ripoff the Champ's Craft.
01:09:17
Speaker
It's stupid. Stupid. Let's move on. It's stupid. Let's go to the next i I don't have much more to say about this one, honestly.
01:09:29
Speaker
Although... we do i We do get the return of a classic Iceman line. He says, oh, it's just that little old Iceman, He loves just popping into a situation. and Very good. Very good, Iceman. All right.
01:09:51
Speaker
And War and Commission. Okay. Okay. Recap what he's done in this issue. He does not appear into the variant where he breaks a window in response to knowing that millions of bees are flying towards them.
01:10:05
Speaker
Just giving them a space to get it Yeah, he says, let's let's let's get some air in here.
01:10:13
Speaker
All right. I'm going to tell you about ah Champions number 15, Death. We're getting so close, Matt. Death drone. Oh, oh no.
01:10:24
Speaker
Written by Bill Mantlo, drawn by John Byrne, inked by Mike Esposito, lettered by Patterson. Patterson. Colored by Ivartonoff.
01:10:38
Speaker
Ivartonoff. What are you, prank calling me? Yes, that's like, we got an Ivartonoff. Ivartonoff. No, you don't.
01:10:50
Speaker
Why, you little... Archie Goodwin is the editor here. the release date is June 14th, 1977. Bees! Swarming through the broken window.
01:11:01
Speaker
Millions of them! Black Widow sets the scene for us as the champions try to use their powers to stop the bees in various ways. None of them are successful. Suddenly, the man made of bees floats through the...
01:11:16
Speaker
Suddenly, the man made of bees floats through the window announcing his name is Swarm, and he's here for a suitcase. Along with the thousands of regular-sized bees he brought, there's also two giant robot bees who quickly take out and capture Darkstar and Iceman.
01:11:32
Speaker
Swarm grabs the briefcase and runs, trapping Hercules and Widow behind a giant honeycomb wall. I guess this is one of his powers, is he just really quickly makes honeycomb walls? I don't Yeah, I guess so. It looks delicious. Hey, it's like me in Terraria. All right.
01:11:52
Speaker
This isn't your video game podcast, Matt. It's like me in Terraria. Alright, we gotta keep moving.
01:12:01
Speaker
At street level, people I was mugging. At street level, people are being covered in bees. The champions spend hours trying to rescue civilians from the bee attacks, but it's a fruitless effort.
01:12:16
Speaker
ah Meanwhile, Bobby and Darkstar start to come too, discovering that they're trapped in a honeycomb cell. Swarm appears in... yeah let's dark star honey in this it says god it's okay honey
01:12:32
Speaker
i haven't had an out of battle conversation yet stop doing that also the narrator at some point calls dark star a non-champion it's like bees are attacking champion and non-champion alike dude
01:12:47
Speaker
fucking harsh. I think one of the way you say you you were telling you were talking about how the champions are like fighting the bees, right? ah They're doing it, but basically just like tearing their own headquarters apart and hitting the bees with it.
01:13:03
Speaker
who right It's like they know their comics about to get canceled and they're like, let's just do all let's just tear the place apart. Let's use the sets as as as much as we can. Let's get as much out of this as we can.
01:13:16
Speaker
but Also, when they get out on the streets and try to help people. Yeah. ah There's only one example they show. And then they're like, they do this for hours. And the example they show is a swarm of bees trying to push a school bus off a bridge.
01:13:32
Speaker
a
01:13:39
Speaker
so Just sting the kids. a bunch of bees trying to work a gun. a bunch of bees.
01:13:48
Speaker
A bunch of bees like trying to dump a cement mixer out on the people. Like just sting them. All right. Okay. Swarm appears. He tells them his story.
01:14:00
Speaker
He was number one. He was formerly a Nazi and an avid beekeeper. Both. <unk> Those are his two priorities. Those two things you know two things you need to know about me day is dating profile. Number one, Nazi. Number two, avid beekeeper.
01:14:17
Speaker
Number three, picture me with a fish. He discovers super intelligent bees, but they were too peaceful. He used science to turn the bees evil, but they attacked him.
01:14:31
Speaker
A combination of science and radiation transferred his consciousness among the thousands of bees stinging him. Now, essentially, he is the swamp thing of bees.
01:14:44
Speaker
Yeah, if you know how Swamp Thing works, you get how Swarm works. Yeah, yeah. And now if you know how Swarm works, you get how Swamp Thing works. That's right. The suitcase, it turns out, held the queen of his hive encased in amber. Only Darkstar or Iceman's powers would be able to free the queen bee without killing her.
01:15:00
Speaker
Iceman objects, but Darkstar can sense the queen bee's pain and wants to free her. She uses her dark force to let the queen go. We cut back to Champions HQ just as Swarm arrives with the Queen Bee healthy and, through science, growing larger by the second.
01:15:19
Speaker
What? It's growing. she's I don't know. Hercules starts fighting the Queen. Swarm sends his bees to take out the rest of the team. This is weird. Dark Star doesn't care that Hercules is fighting the Queen.
01:15:34
Speaker
but A minute ago, she was so worried. Yeah, yeah. She was like, as long as it's not trapped, I don't care if we beat it to death. I just care if things are trapped.
01:15:45
Speaker
ah But Hercules, knowing about bees, I guess, throws the queen out the window as far as he can. She's the swarm's true ruler, not swarm himself. So they all follow her out to sea and leave the villain swarm just as a skeleton who collapses to the ground. the end
01:16:03
Speaker
Wouldn't this be a rad D&D encounter? Like, oh, bees are attacking the city. And then you'd be like, why? Fucking I don't know how to fight bees. So we just have to solve solve the puzzles.
01:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah. You guys can use that. I will. No, not you. that Thanks. um All right.
01:16:29
Speaker
couple of things. They say that in in the flashback, they say Swarm's ah lab is made of gold. No, it's not. I'm looking at it. It's green.
01:16:41
Speaker
It's green. It's mostly green. It's green and like white and red. Like what? kind Also, why did it have to be made of gold?
01:16:51
Speaker
Why did it have to be made of gold? What the fuck? it's it's bad yeah John Byrne drew a not gold lab. but And then Bill Mantlo was like, ah What if it was gold? This lab is made of solid gold. This lab is made a this la is gold. wonder if this is why John Byrne left the book after this issue. It's like, no, it wasn't fucking gold.
01:17:14
Speaker
Another thing, Ghost Rider continuously saying, why don't these guys like me? And insulting them at every moment. every Everything he says out loud is an insult to them.
01:17:26
Speaker
And everything he says in his head is, these people don't like me. He's terrible here. At some point, he returns back to being possessed by the spirit of...
01:17:39
Speaker
the ghost writer and becomes rad again. But we just happened to catch him in his absolute worst form for, for this two year, two or three years or whatever. Yeah.
01:17:52
Speaker
The dialogue is getting so bad. It is ah Here's a couple of examples. Black widow trying to sum up the situation says they're after a briefcase belonging to an Interpol agent killed in Santa Monica.
01:18:10
Speaker
its you wouldn't talk to somebody like that. i we Seeing the bees enter the building, Hercules says they come through what thou dost call the central air conditioning duct.
01:18:23
Speaker
God damn This is the thing that bugs me about Hercules. He's been alive all this time. They treat him like a man out of time, but he's not Captain America. He's been alive all this time. Right.
01:18:40
Speaker
He's seen all this stuff happen. he's Why are you pretending to be confused by shit? Earlier, he was saying he was confused by football. the Are you kidding?
01:18:51
Speaker
Your culture invented the Olympics. You know how to play a game. Stop What is this? This stadium. What?
01:19:02
Speaker
What you call this round building with all these seats? People come and watch sporting events. Did I score one of your human points?
01:19:14
Speaker
What?
01:19:17
Speaker
This sucks. This sucked. stupid. Let's move on. It's all right. It's all right, Matt. Two... more issues of the champions left and then we're done, right? That's the end of the champions. No, hold on. I'm sorry. Then that's the champions don't end in the comic book. The champions, Pat.
01:19:39
Speaker
We'll get to it. And Pat, before we read the next issue of champions, the champions have a lot of appearances ah between issues 15 and 16. Oh,
01:19:52
Speaker
no Yeah. All right.
Iron Man Annual #4 Discussion
01:19:57
Speaker
So in Iron Man Annual number four, I'm just going to tell you about him really quick. but Yeah, yeah it yeah. Is that all right?
01:20:04
Speaker
I'll just tell you what happens. I'm going to hold my breath until you're finished. No, please don't. All right. i' go quick In Iron Man Annual number four by Bill Manolo and George Tuska on May 10th, 1977, Iron Man's in l LA and doesn't have time to get to the ah get the Avengers to... I can't do this, Pat.
01:20:22
Speaker
Okay. Iron Man's in l LA and doesn't have the time to get the Avengers to fight some MODOK plan to fight some MODOK plan that he found. So he gets the champions and splits them up.
01:20:34
Speaker
Hercules and Black Widow are in a forest and almost declare their love for each other. Patrick. What? Yeah. And Angel is there too and gets caught in a net when they fight game guys. Of course he does. Warren report.
01:20:47
Speaker
Um, Warren Commission, sorry. Warren Commission report. Warren Commission gets caught in a net. Darkstar, Ghost Rider, and Iceman fight mutant sea creatures on the coast.
01:20:59
Speaker
Ghost Rider is still mean to Darkstar, and Iceman is still creepily protective of her. Iron Man finds MODOK, and the champions do some superhero stuff and defeat him. That's it. That's it. Iron Man annual number four.
01:21:09
Speaker
um The Avengers number 163, written by Jomp Shooter, drawn by George Tuska, release date ah June 14th, 1977. Hercules, Iceman, and Black Widow arrive in New York at Iron Man's Call, and he starts beating the hell out of them, like immediately when they arrive. yeah ah He flashes back to some Olympian guy named Typhon. Typhon.
01:21:31
Speaker
breaking into Avengers mansion and demanding to see Hercules or he'll kill beast. Iron Man has to fight Hercules to please Typhon or something who can see him on a video monitor.
01:21:46
Speaker
But he's also, he also wants to keep Hercules away from Typhon's ambush. And then
Super-villain Team-Up Highlights
01:21:54
Speaker
the widow Iceman and beast just beat the hell out of Typhon and he goes back to Hades the end.
01:21:58
Speaker
Yeah. um Super villain team up number 14. This one's important. So listen to this one. and Okay. Okay. Written by Bill Mantlo, drawn by deb Bob Hall. Release date July 5, 1977. That's right after July 4. Yeah, it's true.
01:22:13
Speaker
that's right after july four
01:22:20
Speaker
Okay, Magneto comes to Latveria to see. I don't know why I did that. Doctor Doom to conquer the world. I'm racist against Latverians.
01:22:31
Speaker
ah Yeah, that was ah disrespectful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've never met a Latverian I've liked. Sorry. Sorry, cancel me. Jeez. Cancel me, Latverian. Just because you dislike their government doesn't mean you have to dislike all the citizens. I've also never liked anyone I've met from Madripoor.
01:22:52
Speaker
Sorry, Matt. you Sorry. but You're not alone on this podcast. I can't be... All Magneto comes to Latveria to see Dr. Doom to conquer the world together.
01:23:03
Speaker
But Doom's like, I already did. he pulls a curtain and he's been reveals he's been releasing neurochemicals into the atmosphere to make everyone his slave, including Magneto himself.
01:23:18
Speaker
The whole world. Doom gives Magneto an antidote and is like, try and stop me, dork. um Cut to the Avengers mansion. Magneto bursts in and fights all the Avengers Avengers at once beast.
01:23:33
Speaker
ah OK, so Magneto tells them that he wasn't trying to hurt them and that they're under Doom's control. Wait. Yeah, person and attacks him. And then it's like, I wasn't trying to hurt you. And they're like, oh, he actually didn't hurt any of us. He just knocked us around a little bit.
01:23:49
Speaker
Isn't this exactly what happens in the next issue? But Doom has been watching and uses a he holographic image to freeze the Avengers. And he says, Magneto, you can pick one of these guys and you can team up with them if you want.
01:24:06
Speaker
He picks Beast. um And then he he does some stuff and frees Beast from Doom's mind control. ah They can't find the Fantastic Four or the X-Men, so they go to L.A. The champions immediately attack to be continued.
01:24:22
Speaker
To be continued
Champions #16 Showdown
01:24:23
Speaker
in Champion 16. But before we do, ah there's some funny things. First of all, Magneto gets mad. when He his as a arrives in Latveria and he gets mad that a festival is happening in Doom's honor. So he just starts knocking shit over.
01:24:38
Speaker
First thing he does in ah breaking into Doom's castle is tell Doom that he was turned into a baby and then turned back by Eric the Red. You know, I was a baby once. No, I was a baby twice.
01:24:50
Speaker
ah dr Doom ah makes him attack himself with a bunch of weapons to prove that he's under under his mind control. What? yeah Yeah, he's like, makes a bunch of, Magneto makes a bunch of weapons fly towards himself.
01:25:09
Speaker
Yeah. So, Pat, that's what happened leading up to Champions number 16. Do you want to tell me what happens in that issue? Yeah, let's go. Champions number 16, A World Lost.
01:25:24
Speaker
Release date August 17th, 1977. Cover date November 1977. Going to the Savage Land. Bill Mantlo, writer. Bob Hall, artist. M. Esposito, inker. Denise Wohl, letterer. Phil Raich, colorist. Archie Goodwin, editor.
01:25:42
Speaker
okay Magneto and Beast arrive in l LA and the champions attack, having been warned by the mind-controlled Avengers. Beast tries to explain, but they say that they've been warned about that too.
01:25:54
Speaker
they fight They fight for a while, but when Magneto hears that Doctor Doom is visiting Jimmy Carter in the White House, he gets mad and takes off to confront him. Darkstar wraps the champions up in a sphere of dark energy and follows.
01:26:09
Speaker
In the White House, Doom is mad that everyone is fawning over him instead of being afraid of him. Then he summons the Hulk for some reason. Magneto and Beast arrive, and just before they really start fighting the Hulk, the champions arrive too.
01:26:22
Speaker
Magneto tricks Hulk and Hercules into fighting each other. Ghost Rider finds that he's been immune to the Neurogas, so he and Beast... What? He's been in... Then why did he do all this stuff so far?
01:26:35
Speaker
Yeah. what's see What's been his motivation? this whole how is he just noticing that he's not under mind control? I haven't been mind controlled. Why have I been doing all of this?
01:26:46
Speaker
Who did I punch? Huh. So he and Beast do Beast's favorite thing, fight some soldiers. Beast loves that. Until they are soon attacked by the remaining four champions, Darkstar, Angel, Iceman, and Widow.
01:27:02
Speaker
While the pawns all fight amongst themselves, Magneto and Doom square off, evenly matched until Beast breaks free of Angel and falls on Doctor Doom. Good, good work. Ghost Rider then blasts him in the face with hellfire, causing him to rip his mask off and breathe the Neurogas himself.
01:27:19
Speaker
This snaps everyone on Earth out of it at once, I guess. Everyone is super confused, and Magneto declares victory as he flies off into the sky. Doom is left catatonic, trapped, because he waits for a command from himself that he cannot give.
01:27:37
Speaker
The end.
Political Commentary in Comics
01:27:39
Speaker
Huh.
01:27:43
Speaker
Ghost Rider beat up Jimmy Carter. with There's a point where instead of soldiers attacking, it's the people. It's the like the politicians. Yeah. The cabinet attacking.
01:27:55
Speaker
And ah there's some people whose faces you don't see. Yeah. Yeah. One of them's got to be Jimmy Carter, right? Yeah. I think he's a sepiny Jimmy Carter.
01:28:08
Speaker
Bill Mantlo.
01:28:11
Speaker
Yeah. Has some not particularly subtle... Political commentary la these clowns in Washington, huh?
01:28:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Doom is like, I can't tell if they're doing this. ah Because they're mind controlled or because they're just sycophants. Yeah, exactly. Like, what? What? Like, all right, dude.
01:28:35
Speaker
Tune it down. and know. yeah Say something or say nothing. We fucking. We watched Steve Englehart have Richard Nixon shoot himself in the White House. This is not.
01:28:46
Speaker
Grow up. This is not edge. Yeah. Bobby, this is much better. Bobby says, holy Joe.
01:29:00
Speaker
Joe's Hannah's husband. Get stop. Stop that.
01:29:09
Speaker
Yeah. One more, one more note from me here, aside from it not making any fucking sense. Yeah.
Chaos and End of Champions Series
01:29:17
Speaker
i It takes five minutes into the fight between Magneto and Dr. Doom for Magneto to be like, oh, wait, he's got a metal costume.
01:29:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And Doom has already thought of that. He has reversed the polarity of his armor. I don't think that's how metal works, but now you can assume that Doom knows how to counter that.
01:29:38
Speaker
But still. Yeah. At least think about it earlier. He's covered in metal. There's a panel where they forget to color beast's arm.
01:29:49
Speaker
And. Okay. I am going to make one more point because this pissed me the fuck off. Yeah.
01:29:58
Speaker
ah This didn't make any sense. So first of all, Magneto leaves after they've defeated Doom. Yeah. And then the narrator is like, oh but...
01:30:11
Speaker
Hank was only surviving because of Magneto's mind control and now Magneto's gone. So now a Hank is actually confused under the spell. Same with a Ghost Rider. Now that he's gone back to his regular form, but nobody else, everybody else is coming to. They're like, oh, thank God I'm not mind controlled by that neuro gas anymore.
01:30:31
Speaker
Well, right, yeah. Why is it affecting... i think what he's saying is that now everybody on Earth, including Dr. Doom, and is controlled by the NeuroGas forever.
01:30:44
Speaker
um But the NeuroGas was specifically, i guess, programmed... To Doom's command. To Doom's command. And since Doom can't give commands, it doesn't matter that we're all mind-controlled.
01:30:59
Speaker
but Because they were existing in this other state pre-mind control or whatever, they now forget what's happening.
01:31:11
Speaker
But that that would make sense if... Okay, if Magneto was counteracting Doom's mind control with his own mind control, that would make sense. That Beast would be like, what? How did I get here?
01:31:24
Speaker
But it wouldn't make sense why Johnny Blaze would just forget all of his memories up till this moment. Nobody else forgot all their memories up till that moment.
01:31:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah Well, yeah, it just doesn't make sense on its face, right? Like, what's a gas that could make you make you...
01:31:46
Speaker
um susceptible to mind control by somebody who's nowhere near you and only that person yeah yeah and then if that person is mind controlled by themselves you're free what just because some because nobody's there's a lot of yeah yeah stupid it's stupid let's move on war in commission yeah uh he loses a fight in midair to someone who can't fly laughing
01:32:17
Speaker
All right, Pat. I'm ready to tell you about Champions number 17. This is the final issue of the Champions. This the one Yeah. Which they clearly didn't know.
01:32:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. and Champions number 17, The Sentinels Hunt Again. Writer Bill Mantlo, artist George Tuska, John Byrne, like, embellisher, so I guess, inks.
01:32:39
Speaker
um John Costanza, letterer, Phil Rachelson, colorist, and Archie Goodwin, editor. Release date October 1977. Ugh.
01:32:49
Speaker
Hercules and Black Widow are fucking chilling when suddenly the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Blob, Eunice, and Lorelei, rushes in, demanding their help.
01:33:01
Speaker
Turn the page and three massive sentinels burst through the wall in a big two-page spread. As the mutants cower, claiming that the centralized sent sentinels neutralized their powers, Widow does some kind of signal to the rest of the team with, like, windows or whatever.
01:33:18
Speaker
and she and herk fight the sentinels i don't know how that worked yeah it's like the windows make a c and and so if one of the champions happens to be looking at the building they see a c and they're like oh they need my help but probably they probably need my help or maybe and somebody just left the lights on All the while, Vanisher lurks in... Vanisher. Vanisher.
01:33:46
Speaker
Remember him? Lurks in the shadows. No. Fuck you. Yes. Fall into my trap. We have to deal with the Vanisher? yeah ain't they yeah If this is your first time listening to the pod... Oh, boy.
01:34:01
Speaker
No. hi No, let's... Vanisher is the X-Men number two villain. Yeah. He can teleport. Yeah.
01:34:12
Speaker
He can teleport and he wears a hood, but only halfway over his bald ass head. So it looks like a it looks like a, ah horizontal Mohawk.
01:34:26
Speaker
Or like, ah yeah, like a really weird green baby bonnet. Yeah. ah Angel sees the signal and goes to the Johnny Blaze movie premiere to get Iceman, Dark Star and Ghost Rider.
01:34:37
Speaker
When Iceman. Yeah. ADHD ass sees it. And then he's like, he sees the signal and he's like, well, it could just be a mistake.
01:34:49
Speaker
What if I just kept flying around for a while? Focus up, man. Yeah. ah When Iceman ices up, the crowd starts attacking them, but they get away and head to Champions HQ. Ghost Rider is mean to Iceman and Darkstar, and Vanisher is being menacing in the shadows still.
01:35:09
Speaker
While the full team fights the Sentinels, Eunice tells them that when Eric the Red restored Magneto, he accidentally hit them too, and they all stopped being babies. to Well, now we know, Pat.
01:35:22
Speaker
We were wondering. Now we know. I'm glad we got some closure there. God. And we got to see Eric the Red one more time. Yeah. Eric the Red missed. And that's how.
01:35:33
Speaker
I can't believe we talked about that for three issues. Magneto having been a baby. Fuck. How does this keep coming up in the champions?
01:35:45
Speaker
Then out of nowhere, a big ray blast hits all the champions at once and knocks them all out at once. Even though one is like got the strength and stamina of a god and the other one is an angel.
01:35:59
Speaker
They all get knocked out at once. Zap. The whole thing was a setup. Vanisher apparently has had devised this when he woke up in Stephen Lang's satellite thing and he remade the Sentinels himself out of Lang's spare parts. Seems like maybe it wasn't a good idea to just leave be the what who did they they left some random guy in charge of all the villains right oh yeah superintendent Chalmers yeah um he found the brotherhood in what looks like a cave again i guess as soon as they turned to adults they were like let's get back to our weird cave
01:36:35
Speaker
um and they all come to trick and they all came to trick the champions ah into leading them to the X-Men but now that they're hoping the X-Men will come to them and Darkstar wakes up and beats ass.
01:36:52
Speaker
Vanisher tries to flee, but she traps him in the middle of teleporting. So he's half there and half not. What the fuck? Jesus Christ. and Somebody's like, is he still alive? And she's like, I don't know.
01:37:09
Speaker
that's the end of the series. The champions just wonder whether she's human. and if they can,
Spider-Man Investigates Champions' End
01:37:17
Speaker
oh, maybe we can trust her now. But she did this to a man.
01:37:22
Speaker
And then the series ends. Then the champions ends. That's incredible. The final line being, but what do we do now? Is so funny.
01:37:34
Speaker
Yeah. yeah and Like on the last page of the champions entire run is the vanisher being angry that he's trapped. Oh, it's over. It's over.
01:37:51
Speaker
it's over Oh, Matt, I wish it was. our dark time as a nation has ended. But like any good ah comic book writer, Bill Mantlo demanded yeah that he get to hop in for two issues of Peter Parker's Spectacular Spider-Man okay to wrap story. And it is good.
01:38:16
Speaker
to wrap up his champion story you it is not good Peter Parker, Spectacular Spider-Man number 17, Whatever Happened to the Iceman?
01:38:29
Speaker
Bill Mantlo, writer, Sal Buscema and David Hunt, artists. yeah Bruce, letterer, Janice, colorist, Archie Goodwin, editor. Hit the Shelves, January 24th, 1978, cover date April
01:38:45
Speaker
Peter Parker is in Los Angeles. He's been sent by J. Jonah Jameson to interview the champions about their reported breakup and arrives at his gig, a skyscraper with a sign outside that says, Champions Building for sale or rent. Inquire within.
01:39:02
Speaker
As he surveys the scene, though, two giant panels of glass come crashing down from the 15th floor of the champions building. um And like the panel of glass, it takes them roughly 27 minutes but to reach the ground. ah that Enough for people to have like several conversations about the glass.
01:39:24
Speaker
There are, the I mean, the people having conversations are two cops who were apparently stationed there to watch the building and make sure it didn't fall over. the hair An angel having that conversation with himself.
01:39:41
Speaker
just about the panes of glass. Oh, yeah, right. He flies out to... Oh, well, let's get there. Warren manages to fly out and catch one of those panes of glass, but the second one is headed straight for Peter Parker.
01:39:54
Speaker
His spider sense warns him, and he jumps out of the way. Luckily, no one notices. He and Warren are finally able to connect, and Warren reveals that all of the champions are already gone. He's too late.
01:40:06
Speaker
Oh, man. Peter Parker makes Warren explain the details of every member's departure and notices he's not willing to give much detail around Iceman.
01:40:17
Speaker
Suspicious about that, he returns as Spider-Man and sneaks in one of the painless windows only to find Angel speaking to, quote, a mummy in a wheelchair and a third man standing back in the shadows.
01:40:31
Speaker
Warren is upset at the bandaged man who we learn is Stuart Clark rampage. Yeah. He also reveals that he's blackmailing Warren by threatening a mutual friend.
01:40:43
Speaker
yeah yeah We also this is also where ah Bill Mantlo starts. Telling us all how much he hates. Yeah. people with disabilities by having Stuart Clark be like, you've made me into a useless cripple. Oh yeah. So now I must kill you. Yeah. Now I, now that I have no point in my life. Fucking.
01:41:06
Speaker
He did that. No, he did the same thing with, um, professor X too. In that one, Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And then later he'll do it in the in the Alpha Flight over and over and over and over. It's just like Bill Mantlo hates disabled people and he will spend every comic he ever writes talking about how much he hates them.
01:41:28
Speaker
Well, we hate you, Bill Mantlo. We hate you, Bill Mantlo. Warren gets a little too mad about all of this, though. And who steps out from the shadows? But Rampage?
01:41:38
Speaker
What? Also, where's Iceman? Oh, no. Spider-Man hops in to help, going toe-to-toe with Rampage. But for some reason, Warren keeps trying to hold Spidey back.
01:41:50
Speaker
What's he thinking? Also, where the heck is Iceman? Spider-Man slips up and Rampage starts crushing him in a bear hug, at which point Warren decides that he must save Spider-Man, even if it means harming his friend Bobby Drake in the Rampage suit. What? That's where he's being mad.
01:42:10
Speaker
He's in the Rampage suit. And also that answers so many of my questions here. Doesn't that that's who was in the rampage suit. That's where Bobby Drake is. Oh, but why is he there?
01:42:23
Speaker
and Unclear. We'll probably find out later. Okay. Okay. Okay. Warren electrocutes Clark, sending a shock through Bobby to via the costume. But they're not out of the water yet.
01:42:35
Speaker
Now Iceman is pissed and possibly still undermined control to be continued. So, okay.
Narrative Critique and Character Analysis
01:42:44
Speaker
That shoddy materials thing. They're like, oh, the building is made out of shoddy materials. It just keeps coming up.
01:42:51
Speaker
And it it must have been like a, it must have, it had to have been a real storyline that they were planning something for, right? Must it have?
01:43:03
Speaker
I assume there was some saboteur or something that was going to appear. Yeah. What I was reading into all of this, and i'll again, i promise I will sound off about this once we get to the end of all these, but I think Bill Mantlo was trying to do that thing that they were doing in the Defenders where like...
01:43:26
Speaker
this is This is the cost of doing business, right? It's like he's trying to put a little ah little satire of like, oh, it's tough to do your job when your electricians don't, ah when they cheap out on you and when your contractors use shitty materials and steal all your money.
01:43:47
Speaker
Like, I think this was supposed to be... okay A, like... Bad political commentary thing. Yeah, or even just social commentary. yeah a Sort of a weird satire. But it doesn't land. yeah Because Bill Bantlow's not capable of that type of complex writing.
01:44:04
Speaker
Not complex. um Anyway. Yeah. It's... Okay, so when all the champions leave, it's funny. Because Lania is like...
01:44:16
Speaker
Alright, I'm gonna leave. I never belonged here, and I want to go home to Russia. And Bobby's like, what? what But I love you! this says, I love you. says, I love you, and she goes, oh, wow, Bobby, i really like you, but... ah Not like that.
01:44:33
Speaker
Yeah, she says not like that, and she also very specifically says, i like you. Yeah. It's such a... You set yourself up for this, Bobby. Until we get to, all right, I want to talk about this, but there's one more Bobby Drake relationship we have to look at before. Okay. I really want to sound off on, on that particular thing.
01:44:58
Speaker
Also. Yeah. Then widow and Hercules are going off with each other. Cause I guess they're in love. or Angel is like super, super angry about this. And then he can't find any other superheroes to join his team. Yeah.
01:45:14
Speaker
It's just. It's so sad. It's such like a. It's so weird. You imagine that Jenny Isabella at least had like a
01:45:25
Speaker
Maybe not an end in mind, but at least a a way to leave things off. ay i would I just I would be horrified to see my creation turning into this. Fizzling out like this through other people's comics. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:45:44
Speaker
ah Yeah. All right. We're in commission. He gets blackmailed and almost gets Spider-Man killed um more than once.
01:45:56
Speaker
That's all he does this issue. Yeah. All right. I'm to tell you about Peter Parker's spectacular Spider-Man number 18. My friend, my foe. we're almost done.
01:46:07
Speaker
A Mantlo Pusema Hunt Rosen Beverage Goodwin production. Yeah. Rosen beverage release date February 21st 1978 Spider-Man and Angel race through the halls trying to escape a rage-filled Bobby's relentless attack on them he's clearly hypnotized retaining all of his memories but also with a sole purpose of killing his two friends it's I don't have the energy to
01:46:37
Speaker
ah Dive into why this doesn't make any. young Why does he have all of his memories? But he's still. Yeah. Except. Except the ones that are. I don't want to kill Spider-Man. And my best friend Warren Worthington.
01:46:51
Speaker
Yeah. It's just. He just has those memories. So that he can say meaner things to Warren. And Bill Mantlo just did that exact story. in um The Avengers. Or the Champions number 16.
01:47:07
Speaker
Right. Where he's like, oh, everyone remembers who Dr. Doom is, but and they don't know why they're following him, but they are. There's like, oh, my my biggest enemy, I'll do everything he says.
01:47:19
Speaker
He just thinks that this is how it works, I guess. I don't. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking more. You fucking stupid piece of shit. Pat, Pat, you're so tired.
01:47:29
Speaker
Let's keep going. Flashback. Unbeknownst to the champions, Bobby has been visiting Stuart Clark in the hospital, feeling sympathy for his situation as the recession supervillain and his fate as a comatose, comatose, paralyzed man.
01:47:42
Speaker
But Clark wasn't paralyzed. And when Bobby visited him right after the champions broke up, Clark gassed him. mr Palmed one of Angel's gas pellets.
01:47:55
Speaker
Why is this hospital? It must be the same hospital. Why is this hospital keep knockout gas all over it? It's and he says it's his own combination of hospital drugs that he makes knockout hypno gas out of, which is that true? Can you really can you make that out of? Yeah, yeah my uncle did it. one che found uncle My uncle told me about when he did it and he made all the nurses kiss him.
01:48:23
Speaker
I heard you can do it with just the stuff under your kitchen sink.
01:48:28
Speaker
you Back to the present. Oh, ke Clark gassed him. He was able to take him and back and force mind control on him. Back to the present. The three continue to fight. Bobby is about to kill Warren when Spider-Man taunts him into jumping out of the window. Oh,
01:48:46
Speaker
Okay. All right. Spidey and Bobby spar on their way down, and when Warren goes to follow, a few businessmen show up claiming to be the building's constructors and issuing some mafia-style warnings about the cheap material used to build Champion's Tower.
01:49:00
Speaker
Oh, ho, ho, ho. Finally coming to roost. Ugh. yeah Spider-Man has it all handled, though. He runs Bobby through a fucking car wash. Brilliant. Just a but Bill Mantlo.
01:49:14
Speaker
One brilliant idea. and it's this one. It's so good. This runs Bobby through a car wash, leaving leaving him in the steam cleaning area until he melts. When Bobby comes back to he has no memory of anything that's happened since he visited Clark in the hospital that last time.
01:49:31
Speaker
Everyone reunites and Bobby decides it's time for Iceman to try working on his own for a change. And then you include something about some Spider-Man shit that i don't care about. Hang on. No, this is important.
01:49:44
Speaker
Peter returns to New York and we get an epilogue where Flash Thompson almost gets hit in the head with a frisbee on the ESU campus, but is saved but from this tragedy by the White Tiger. Hector Ayala.
01:49:58
Speaker
It's so, come on, Matt. That's not funny as hell. that The epilogue to this whole thing is just ah Flash Thompson almost gets hit with a frisbee, but then doesn't because he's saved by the white tiger. Oh my goodness.
01:50:14
Speaker
We have an incredibly cold moment from Bobby. No pun intended there. Yeah. ah He, of of course Is able to get Warren in a headlock and starts like just freezing him from the. yeah The he grabs him by the neck and just starts like expanding ice out. It's it's fucking crazy. And while he's doing it, Angel's trying to get away. He says, flap away, Angel.
01:50:43
Speaker
Maybe if you flap hard enough, you'll make it to heaven. Jesus Christ. God damn, Bobby. Yo, know ah there's ah there's another scene in this issue where people are walking past Champion's Tower and they look up and they're like, oh no, like Spider-Man and Iceman are falling on us.
01:51:01
Speaker
Why do people keep walking near this fucking tower? To stay away. Yeah, every... Every issue, something falls out of this tower and almost kills somebody.
01:51:13
Speaker
Don't go near it. The hell are those cops doing? Their whole job is to keep people away eat people away when the building starts falling apart. So after this issue, Iceman doesn't appear in much for about five years.
01:51:28
Speaker
Yeah. he says, I'm going off to be a hero on my own. and then does that. Then is nowhere. It does nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. get until Until he and Angel and the Beast join the Defenders in 1983. But yeah, like. What?
01:51:43
Speaker
ah but yeah it's like Yeah, they do. They do. we have to read that? No. okay We can't. It's like it they do it for like 30 issues. ah and Like just like we're not reading the Beast and the Avengers because he's in the Avengers for like 100 issues or something. Yeah, sure.
01:52:00
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, he appears in a couple X-Men's. um He appears in Contest of Champions in a Marvel 2-1-1 and the issue we're about to read.
01:52:11
Speaker
Oh, speaking of the issue we're about to read, Matt. Yeah, speak about it to me. Let me tell you about Incredible Hulk Annual number seven. This is the last issue of our... The evil that cast.
01:52:25
Speaker
This is the last issue of our marathon record. It is 2.45 in the fucking morning. That's right. Let's see if we can wrap by three. all right.
01:52:37
Speaker
Roger Stern, writer, and John Byrne
Hulk Annual #7 Context and Battle
01:52:41
Speaker
Penciler, both credited it as co-plotters. Bob Layton, anchor, Jim Novak, letterer, Janice Cohen, colorist, Bob Hall, editor, and Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief.
01:52:54
Speaker
Jump. Interesting. I don't know that I've read Roger Stern's writing before. I know his editing, obviously pretty familiar with that. It's not, I mean, this issue is not good, but it's it's not like great, but it's not bad at all.
01:53:07
Speaker
For Hulk stuff, as far as Hulk issues that we've read on this podcast goes, it's it's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. And Hulk is funny in it. Release date is May 9th, 1978. Cover date is October context, in the X-Men,
01:53:25
Speaker
ah for the purposes of this podcast in general, yeah yeah yeah were currently in September 1979. This issue happened one week before X-Men 112, where a Nanny Robot is about to feed Wolverine oatmeal in Magneto's volcano base.
01:53:43
Speaker
Warren Worthington III, relaxing with his girlfriend Candy Southern in his penthouse in the Rocky Mountains, gets a call from his pal Bobby Drake asking to come stay for a vacation.
01:53:54
Speaker
Aw. Angel advises him to take the champ chopter or whatever and fly over. yeah Candy Southern, man. Candy Southern's back. Yeah. Good for her.
01:54:06
Speaker
Good for her. Meanwhile, the Hulk has turned himself into the authorities and is staying in a New Mexico military base, being treated by super strong, green-haired psychologist Dr. Leonard Sampson.
01:54:17
Speaker
Ah, Doc Sampson! Bobby and his new girlfriend Terry Sue Bottoms... Ah, Terry Sue Bottoms. Oh, Terry Sue Bottoms. Terry Sue Bottoms. Yeah, Terry Sue Bottoms. All right. It is.
01:54:31
Speaker
It's a very good name. She, yeah, Terry Sue Bottoms. She, astonishingly, she shows up in a second comic book before disappearing forever.
01:54:42
Speaker
Oh, my goodness. Okay. Yeah. What comic book? um One of those few where I remember said, Iceman barely shows up in anything.
01:54:53
Speaker
Marvel two in one. Number 76. Okay. They both show up. Interesting. and Are they still dating? In 1981. Yeah. um Anyway, Bobby and his new girlfriend, Terry Sue Bottoms, arrive and Terry fawns over a shirtless Warren while some muscly guy in buckskin comes ampling down the mountain with a rifle.
01:55:16
Speaker
So when they... No, okay. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.
01:55:21
Speaker
Don't interrupt me. When they notice... When they notice him, he fires a laser. yeah it says,
01:55:32
Speaker
he he fires a laser at them and demands their surrender. Terry and Candy run inside while Angel and Iceman drop him in the pool and freeze it, realizing he's some kind of robot.
01:55:45
Speaker
Shortly, though, he bursts through the ice and is like 10 stories tall, revealing himself to be Master Mold Sentinel Supreme. He quickly knocks out Iceman and takes off, chasing Angel through the sky.
01:55:58
Speaker
Angel leads him to the New Mexico base where Hulk is before getting blasted. Arguing with the Hulk, Master Bold petulantly kicks the base, getting Hulk wet and making him mad.
01:56:10
Speaker
Hulk leaps up and grabs his foot as he flies away, and Doc Samson doesn't quite reach, so he's not coming along. Master Bold takes um all... He's arguing with the Hulk! He's arguing with the Hulk about whether or not, like, about what he's doing there.
01:56:26
Speaker
And he's like, and kicks the base. He just like kicks it with his foot. I don't know if we're supposed to assume that Hulk was in between his foot and the base, but it really looks like he's just being a dick.
01:56:41
Speaker
ah thinking Because Hulk is like, ah ah he's like, stay out of it, little man. And Hulk is like, Hulk is no little man. Robot can't tell Hulk what to do.
01:56:51
Speaker
and then he He's like, oh, no. And he kicks the base and flies away. all Also, the only reason he emerges after after Master Mold lands is because he's he hears all the commotion. It seems to wake him up. he But he pops out and he goes, what's all this noise? Like like an old man.
01:57:16
Speaker
ah ah Mastermold takes them all the way to space to some orbiting asteroid lab and puts them in containment chambers. When Hulk wakes up, he smashes out and frees the boys because why would that hold him?
01:57:31
Speaker
Yeah, they he puts them in the Blob's tank. It's been so funny because it's a picture of Hulk in a tank that says Blob. It's labeled Blob. It's a blob.
01:57:45
Speaker
i So he's able to easily smash out and he frees the boys before tearing through the base looking for master mold. Hulk wants to smash his way out, but Angel and Iceman are like, we're in space, we'll die.
01:57:58
Speaker
Unclear if Hulk agrees to chill or not, because seconds later, he wanders off and starts smashing master mold. Yeah, it's yeah, they're they're having this conversation with him and he seems to...
01:58:10
Speaker
He seems to be kind of consenting. And then as soon as Angel flies off to like look for a way out, it's like he just forgets and starts off to find him. yeah Just match robot.
01:58:22
Speaker
Was this is this by the way? So is this asteroid M? Right. I thought at first this was Stephen Lang's base, but we we it's pretty explicit later in this issue that it's not.
01:58:36
Speaker
Yeah, that is although it does have the tube. It's got a tube with a blob label on it. So at some point, it seems like it is supposed to be Stephen Lang's base. Yeah, unless it's he remade it.
01:58:51
Speaker
The set that Master Mold remade it based on what we were about to learn about Master Mold. And and a lot of this is confusing. Like, why did he only kidnap Iceman and Angel?
01:59:04
Speaker
Yeah, why not any other mutants? why not Or all mutants. like that's all just yeah Just letting you all know, this isn't going to get... this These questions won't be answered.
01:59:16
Speaker
No, no. um And it can't be... Are there two asteroid bases floating around? Because it can't be asteroid M because Magneto is there. Remember, we've we saw... Yeah, yeah.
01:59:30
Speaker
So there's asteroid M, there's Stephen Lang's base... and then But if this is when... and the yeah They could be in different orbits too, so it's not like they're actually in close proximity.
01:59:44
Speaker
But yeah, there seem to be at least three mutant babies mutant-based well asteroid fortresses. The thing about Stephen Lang's base is that it was a stolen S.H.I.E.L.D.
01:59:57
Speaker
satellite. Yes, you're right. And S.H.I.E.L.D. stole it back, so... i don't Anyway, Hulk is off wandering off to and he just starts smashing my Master Mold randomly.
02:00:09
Speaker
During a break in the fighting, the Sentinel explains that he's actually Stephen Lang, who survived crashing his stupid gunship into that screen long enough to transmit his brain into Master Mold.
02:00:22
Speaker
If you guys remember, that was like X-Men 100. Angel tells them that, although this may be true, Stephen Lang is actually still alive and in a coma in a S.H.I.E.L.D. hospital.
02:00:35
Speaker
Master Mold starts having a crisis over this. Hulk beats the hell out of his ass.
02:00:42
Speaker
They find an escape pod, but Langmold starts gloating that he locked them all in the place. So Bobby taunts Hulk until he kicks it shut and boots it out through the wall. They land in the ocean and the Hulk soon follows, having been sucked out of the base himself.
02:00:57
Speaker
Everyone says goodbye and goes home. The
Narrative Style Critique
02:01:01
Speaker
end. who We're done. Holy shit. Oh my God. Oh, we did it. 20 issues. 20 issues in a row.
02:01:09
Speaker
They said it couldn't be done. And hey, it's 2.51 Let's get through the rest of our stuff. All right. So here's my notes. um Yeah. We have to talk about this. Okay.
02:01:20
Speaker
So this is another girl that doesn't like Bobby Drake, but he's dating her. Right. And I bet he doesn't even know. She doesn't even know. yeah She's his girlfriend. Right.
02:01:32
Speaker
Like everybody else. she was He was like, hey, um come on. We want to come meet my friend Warren Worthington. And she's like, oh, like the celebrity. Yeah. Yeah. She's fawning over him.
02:01:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. She's like feeling his muscles. She makes him put on his costume. She's like playing with his wings. And even Candy Southern is like, I don't like where this is going. Yeah. And so this is it's I think there's a lot of people when Iceman came out out as gay in the early 2020s late 2010s. When Iceman came out as gay, I think there's a lot of people that were like, like really angry.
02:02:09
Speaker
About the retcon. That this was a retcon. And there were ah another. there's It was like an argument back and forth. And there were people that were like Actually we've always known Iceman is gay. He's always been performatively.
02:02:22
Speaker
Heterosexual. And other people being like. Well you're kind of reading into that. You're like yeah yeah you're kind of projecting a bit. Exactly. You're projecting based on what you know now. Or what you want to be true.
02:02:35
Speaker
But. He was actually a ladies man all this time. But reading back these old comics, his heterosexuality has legitimately been performative. This is why people say it.
02:02:48
Speaker
Because all of his relationships are absolutely ridiculous. He follows women around, women that don't like him, that clearly don't like him, or that he clearly doesn't like. Because that girl with Vera's, that hung out with Vera, what was that girl's name?
02:03:03
Speaker
Oh, ah Zelda. Zelda. Zelda, he was always talking about how much he didn't like her. Yeah. And they just, they mostly pout around. They kissed exactly once over the course of like three years.
02:03:17
Speaker
Yes. And, and again, he mostly just complained about her whenever she came up. And most of the time she didn't come up because he didn't care about her. And then there was Lorna Dane who he was just obsessed with, even though he never made a move on her, never asked her out, never told her his feelings until she was dating Alex Summers.
02:03:35
Speaker
And it was, you can say like, well that was because of the comics at the time. people didn't express their feelings. But no, well Alex and Lorna were immediately in a relationship. Yeah, yeah.
02:03:46
Speaker
Like, we see Bobby fail at it, and then Alex succeed at it. Exactly. and And it's not like that was five years apart. That was one year apart. in the same year.
02:03:57
Speaker
And he even thinks they're dating. Yeah. And she's like, what? No. Like, it's months. They don't even touch. Yeah. They don't even go on a date.
02:04:08
Speaker
It's that sort of thing, where it's like, what do you what what are you getting out of a relationship with... Someone of the opposite sex. If it's. Yes. If you're not forming social or physical bonds with them.
02:04:22
Speaker
Right. And then the same thing happens with Darkstar. He just starts calling her honey. And he starts following her around. And she's like I never liked you that way. And he's like I love you. and No you don't. You can't.
02:04:35
Speaker
Because you don't know her. This is... and then and then, of course, then Terry Sue Bottoms and this ridiculousness, right? Yeah, yeah. yeah
Final Thoughts on Champions Series
02:04:44
Speaker
So it's not just...
02:04:48
Speaker
You know, it's it's not just people retroactively changing the narrative. it He was it like his relationships were always absolutely absurd. ah And they're they you can't explain them by like, oh, he's just an awkward young kid. Because, no, we've seen awkward young kids in these books and they don't act like that.
02:05:09
Speaker
And yeah, yeah. i I mean, Colossus is an awkward young kid and he fucks. He fucks someone in the Savage Land. Two. Oh, that's true. Good point.
02:05:22
Speaker
So that's, I just, I think it was worth addressing. and yeah. yeah Because we just, yeah. A much lighter note. Okay. There's some lighter stuff to this issue as well. There is, i just thought this was really cute. On the cover if of Hulk Annual, it has one of those little bubbles that says, Marvel's green-skinned TV sensation. And they introduce him as ver ah Robert Bruce Banner.
02:05:52
Speaker
Ah, you sons of a bitch. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing. i guess that's it. This was fine. This is a fine issue, but. I think it's interesting. This is Mastermold's first appearance since X-Men 16 in 1966. Yeah, it doesn't make any fucking sense.
02:06:13
Speaker
This was also, look, I'm glad we got a new writer. I'm glad we have like a different direction that we're going in This was still fucking stupid. Let's move on. Hold on. I do one more funny line, which is Terry Sue Bottoms. When Candy's like, they took ah Angel and ah and Bobby. And Terry Sue Bottoms says, well, I get why they'd want Angel, but why would anybody want Bobby?
02:06:43
Speaker
dude oh ah oh geez terry yeah i final warren commission just to put a nice bow on this sure uh warren seduces bobby's girlfriend and hits a man once with a diving board all right very cool he's a that we have just read through 20 issues with angel mm-hmm Every one of them has at least one big fight scene.
02:07:11
Speaker
Yeah. We see Angel fight somebody in two issues.
02:07:19
Speaker
you know, like you said, he's matured. 10% of the time. He's grown up. He's matured. I'll tell you what, Matt, is our sound guy still awake? Because... and on i'll i'll I'll poke him.
02:07:32
Speaker
Yeah, poke him. Wake up, dude. Okay.
02:07:40
Speaker
and a e
02:07:45
Speaker
That's right, folks. It's time for Pat's Deals and Steals. Luckily, when I went out and picked up the original copy of Incredible Hulk Annual number three...
02:07:59
Speaker
Seven. Those those teens. ah Number seven. Those teens hadn't gotten to it yet. So.
02:08:07
Speaker
I was able to pull what I think is quite a steal. Okay. i Just read the copy here. Still more bad news.
02:08:20
Speaker
Huh? don't know. This summer, the bad new bears will be back in their all new film comedy. The bad news bears go to Japan. See this summer at a theater near you.
02:08:31
Speaker
That wasn't real, though. That wasn't real. Bad News Bear didn't go to Japan. Yes, they did. No, there we would know about that. No, the Bad News Bears went to Japan. It's it's Bad News Bears 3.
02:08:43
Speaker
No, I don't think there was a Bad News Bears 3. I think there was Bad News Bears and that was it. No, there was a there was even a Bad News Bears 2, Matt. I would have known. i would have known if there was a Bad News Bears 2 or 3. So...
02:08:57
Speaker
so Bad News Bears 3, they drop Walter Matthau, and they bring in Tony Curtis to replace him. Okay. This does, of course, star a star of Bad News Bears 1, 2, and 3, Jackie Earl Haley, who you may know as Rorschach in the Watchmen movie.
02:09:24
Speaker
Ha ha ha! His most famous role. it's it the He hasn't done yeah much. yeah
02:09:35
Speaker
And that's it. That's Pat Steals and Deals. okay that Go see Bad News Bears. Go to Japan. Don't. is I was a huge fan of the Bad News Bears series as a kid. But even then, i was like, oh, this one's not.
02:09:48
Speaker
I've never seen a Bad News Bears. What? It's a sports comedy, I guess. Not even a remake with Billy Bob Thornton in the Walter Matthau role. Why would I have done that?
02:09:58
Speaker
Why would I have put myself through that? That one's not worth seeing it. But the original is. It's good. It's got Walter Matthau. He's very funny. Yeah, I... Matt! Okay! All right, all right, all right! I believe you. Walter Matthau's funny.
02:10:14
Speaker
What else do we want to talk about before we get out of here? think we've got play the song. Can you shove the sound guy? I think we play the song on either side. he's got eyeh out of fire has time machine you like to try out and a e
02:10:35
Speaker
You should get a sped up version for after. um... yeah it' got that out for something you've tried yeah um What are your final thoughts? so We're done. we what Okay.
02:10:47
Speaker
The question, I guess, is how do you feel about all the shit that Bobby and Warren got up to? may know our opinions on these stories, but what do we feel about them, their arc?
02:11:03
Speaker
you're trying to You're trying to silence me. oh okay. No, I think that it's... I think... And...
02:11:13
Speaker
I may have mentioned this before, but I think they're fucking stupid.
02:11:20
Speaker
I think it's really just like, it's such a, it's such a mess. It's very clear, especially this back half here that Bill Mantlo wants to write fun, weird comics like everyone else's at this time, but he just isn't weird or daring enough to. Yeah. And I think that explains everything that happens. Even if we take out everyone else and just bring it down to Warren and Bobby still, uh,
02:11:46
Speaker
absurd in a discomforting way, right? It's like somebody somebody being performatively weird. It's like a hot topic. It's somebody that shops at hot topic. It's like, okay, you...
02:11:59
Speaker
have gotten an idea of what the scene is, but you have no sense of why any of this is where it is. They have all these little spats for no reason. Johnny Blaze just hates everybody.
02:12:11
Speaker
Bobby is always jealous or emotional. Everyone else is just arrogant all the time. They you refer to themselves as common man heroes and people refer to them that way sincerely, but they have not earned that in any way. They're handling world ending threats. They're not like they're not street level heroes.
02:12:31
Speaker
Right. Right. they're supposed to be kind of bubbling or kind of bumbling, right? Maybe like the defenders, like but it's just incoherent. It makes them look stupid. It just leads them to have, to having all these emotional inconsistencies.
02:12:48
Speaker
Yeah. And then he tries to pick up on things like the struggles of the business side from, uh, from Isabella, right? Jenny Isabella had this really clearly, uh, at least thought out,
02:13:05
Speaker
way of addressing like uh recession the the recession right or the the fact that everything was being cheaply made but instead he just ends up having some things break because of bad wiring right that's right that's how bill mantlow continues to explore that or he's introducing these weird sci-fi concepts with no desire to explore them which is listeners will know drives me absolutely nuts. There's so much potential there that he just yeah leaves on the table.
02:13:32
Speaker
Then he even tries that bland ass political commentary. it is the most boring it could possibly be. Just... because It's awful. He is It starts out as like a like a pop comic for kids. I think at the end of the last episode, I compared it to Mr. Beast.
02:13:50
Speaker
This one, this second half of issues we read is not that. It is just...
02:13:58
Speaker
you a shitty writer doing bad work. but Now, I think the, I think the, I kind of liked the swarm concept and I don't know if it was ah explored to the extent that it should have been or in the way that should, but it i I think it, it worked.
02:14:18
Speaker
um And it was a little exciting. I think even when Jenny Isabella was writing the swarm thing, I think even when Jenny Isabella was writing, though, it wasn't great. Right. Like, I don't I don't think I don't think it was like a good comic that was ruined. I think it was a ah poor comic that was made bad.
02:14:33
Speaker
The difference was that, yeah, the Jenny Isabella stuff was the first. If we discount, say, the first two issues. The rest was just like stupid fun.
02:14:47
Speaker
Yeah. The rest of Jenny Isabella. so Because, like, that... that i i I hated how it started, right? Like, i really didn't like... That they just all happened to be on on a college campus. That was funny, but I did not like the whole story about them going to Hades and all that.
02:15:06
Speaker
Like, it just wasn't... Or Olympus. Oh, yeah. just wasn't interesting. And it was just so... There were just so many ideas that were just held together with, you know, gum and baling twine, right? Like, it was... It was so... Absolutely disjointed and a Lacking focus.
02:15:30
Speaker
yeah and and yeah it Yeah. And again, it lost what was fun about it about halfway through. But as far as Angel and Iceman, their journey since leaving the X-Men, I think Angel's was it kind of true to Angel.
02:15:47
Speaker
I think it makes sense that he would go to L.A. and then be like, I'm going to start my own superhero team and just utterly, absolutely fail at it.
02:15:59
Speaker
And do nothing useful in the ah in the process. Right. And be like, oh, I'm
Episode Conclusion and Reflections
02:16:04
Speaker
going to hang with real superheroes now. and And like, absolutely, like just make an ass of himself in front of them fail to utilize them correctly made black widow leader, but he kept trying to lead from behind.
02:16:18
Speaker
Right. Um, and then the Iceman thing, i like the idea of him going to school, but after that, there's just nothing interesting about Iceman's journey here. Yeah. Yeah.
02:16:34
Speaker
we in his actual life journey and his character journey as well. I understand Warren here. I don't, I think he's a little underutilized because I think you could have had more fun with him.
02:16:46
Speaker
Um, but I understand Warren. I don't understand Bobby and it's not the Bobby Drake I knew. Yeah. Yeah. It's not the Bobby Drake I'll know later, right? Like it is just this weird character who seems completely disconnected from his past and his future he's just uh i don't know ice ah ice guy he's the ice man he's just generic ice guy who's angry at everybody anyway he'll find himself that was the champions guys
02:17:24
Speaker
a i i hope this i we are so tired i hope that this has um Continued to be entertaining throughout the whole thing for you guys. I hope that as we have lost our minds, you have found entertainment in it.
02:17:45
Speaker
And if it's not, if you are some, for some reason still listening, even though this is terrible, i just know that we're turning it all around. Next episode. Next episode when we're just doing nine issues in a row.
02:17:58
Speaker
That's right. Yeah. But we're tackling very important issues. Yes. A big, big milestone in X-Men history coming up next.
02:18:09
Speaker
We didn't say it once this whole time. No, I'm not beep anything. That was good. It's the Dark Phoenix saga. Fuck. All right. ah Huge thanks as always to Krils Wilson for supplying most of our music. Huge thanks to Julia Selle for providing the voice of Trish Tilby.
02:18:30
Speaker
If you want to ah be on Pat's email corner, you can write into menace pod at gmail.com. Talk about. how any of the stuff we talked about on this episode, i don't know if we gave you any calls to action, but if we did or didn't, feel free to write us about any of your thoughts and feelings. Make up your own call to action.
02:18:52
Speaker
We're tired. We're so sleepy, you guys. We're tired. Also, you know, leave comments, leave reviews, leave ratings, share with your friends.
02:19:05
Speaker
um
02:19:08
Speaker
And...
02:19:11
Speaker
That's it. That's it. it um Matt, are you still awake enough to lead us in what we say at the end of every episode?
02:19:21
Speaker
Yeah, ah here's what we say at the end of every episode. That pea shooter of his has more snap, crackle and pop than a box of Rice Krispies. That's right.
02:19:33
Speaker
And remember, folks, the bees, they found me.
02:19:55
Speaker
Bakhtit.