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E125: Sometimes you just need to paint the car
224 Plays10 days ago
Jerid is out, so this week Denis has ABS Mastersmith Mike Vagnino joining as a guest. Come listen in to a wealth of knifemaking knowledge!
Denis Tyrell of Tyrell Knifeworks:
IG: @tyrellknifeworks
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TyrellKnifeworks
Website: https://www.tyrellknifeworks.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Tyrell-Knifeworks/61558767232017/
Michael Vagnino, ABS Mastersmith
IG: @michaelvagnino
Website: https://terrain365.com/
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Introduction
00:00:16
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks for joining us for another episode of the Triple T for Knifemakers podcast. I'm your host Dennis Trell from Trell Knifeworks and this week Jared is off gallivanting playing golf.
00:00:27
Speaker
i He's out playing golf with his son, being a good father, so we're going to let him slide. This week I have Mike Vangnino joining us.
Mike Vangnino's Background
00:00:37
Speaker
We've talked about him a lot on the podcast because he's the master smith that I went through. um Awesome, Bladesmith, great to have him finally on the show. mike how are you doing?
00:00:47
Speaker
Good, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been a pleasure, or will be a pleasure having you on the show. um Tell me about what you said, like, wait how, you know, how, you live in Visalia, which is a couple hours from me. Where'd you grow up? Did you grow up in California?
00:01:05
Speaker
No, grew Kansas City, Missouri. um Went, let's see, trying to think. Got married to Marcy in 1980.
00:01:20
Speaker
She was going to school in Kansas City, the Kansas City Art Institute is where we met. ah but Before we got married, my folks retired.
00:01:31
Speaker
They lived in Kansas City. They retired. ah
00:01:37
Speaker
Then they decided to move to Fresno because my dad's brother lived in Fresno. So they did that.
Inspiration & Early Knifemaking Journey
00:01:43
Speaker
And then that was like 76, something like that.
00:01:48
Speaker
Anyway, he got bored doing nothing. So he decided to, of all things, start a tree fruit farm, peaches, plums and nectarines in Visalia, bought some land. And so he called my brother.
00:02:05
Speaker
First, he had my uncle come out and help him. Then he called my brother. He said he'd come out. And then after Marcy and I were married, 81, I'm thinking 82, he asked me to come out. So we moved out to Visalia to help on the farm.
00:02:21
Speaker
ah Did that for until 2000. Dad got sick in 2001 or 2002. Decided to sell the farm.
00:02:32
Speaker
He passed away in six. Marcy and I moved into Visalia. 2008. And then before all that was going on. So just really quick, slap me if I start talking too much. ill stop yeah So, so in 1995, we used to go back every, every year to Denver, that's where she grew up. That's where her folks live. So we'd go back there for Christmas or Thanksgiving, every week, go back and forth.
00:03:04
Speaker
And so in 95, her brother which is was my age living in Denver. One Christmas we were out there and he shows me a knife and he goes, I go, that's kind of cool. It's just a little hunting knife.
00:03:18
Speaker
He goes, how much did I pay for that? I'll make this really short. I go, I don't know, 25 bucks. he goes, $150. I go, you stupid or what? He goes, no, no, no. He goes, I went to this guy's shop. I ran into him and he made this in front of me from beginning to scratch. He forged it. He put the handles.
00:03:35
Speaker
And he sold to me for $150. I go, you're crazy. He goes, no, you're not getting this. We need to start making knives. He goes, this is a 95. This is a 95. How simple is this? I go, yeah, okay, sure. So anyway, he called me up. We went back home to Visalia.
00:03:54
Speaker
He called me up. He goes, hey, I got us. I got us a lesson from a knife from a knife maker out in Sebastopol, California. I go, you did what? He goes, yeah, it's a three-day class.
00:04:06
Speaker
He goes, I'll come out there. We'll go up there, take the class, learn how to forge blade, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah I said, sure, okay. So, really long story short, he he wasn't able to make it, so I went up there by myself.
00:04:19
Speaker
And the class was with Carl Schroen. He's been making, i guess he's still alive. He's been making knives forever. He's third-generation German blacksmith, lived in Sebastopol. And it was the best three, the funnest, the best three days I ever had in my life.
00:04:32
Speaker
beating on a piece of steel. I'd never done that in my life. I mean, it was so cool. So I came home. What kind of was it? What kind knife did you use? It was just a little hunter. It was like a three blade hunter out of A2 steel.
00:04:45
Speaker
I didn't know zip about steel. And he goes, I'm going teach you how to make this out of A2. And the reason I'm doing it, because a two is really hard to forge. And if you can forge this, then you can forge most any carbon steel. So went through the process. I got the knife made.
00:05:01
Speaker
showed me how to put a little guard on, little handle, showed me how to make a sheath.
00:05:08
Speaker
So I got home. Fred called me. That was Marcy's brother's name. Fred called me. How'd it go? i said, man, this way cool. So he'd come out. I don't know how much after that. We ended up making an anvil out of a railroad piece of railroad rail.
00:05:25
Speaker
a We needed a forge. You should have seen. Forge we made out of a a truck rim that we, I mean, it was cold. was cold forge. It was a cold forge.
00:05:37
Speaker
I loved, I love cold forges. I just love the smell of them. I love the, I just love them. I don't, so I, down the road. Marcy comes out one day. She goes, you got quit doing that. I go quit doing what using that coal forge. You're going to need to come in the house.
00:05:53
Speaker
I mean, there was cold dust and shit everywhere.
Mentorship with Tim Hancock
00:05:55
Speaker
So yeah that's when, that's, that's when I got into gas forges. So I made me a couple of gas forges and blah, blah, blah. Went on from there. So, uh, so the first, so I, so we're still farming at the time with my dad and brother.
00:06:10
Speaker
And so from about, September, October through picking season, we were fairly busy spraying, pruning, that kind of stuff. And it didn't give me a whole lot of time. But during the summertime, I had a lot of free time.
00:06:26
Speaker
And so I spent that in my shop, learning how to make knives. So you picked the hottest part of the year to make, oh i know it's great it's sweating and flies buzzing around my mice. They'd come out, look at me, turn around and walk back. How do you do that? I said, i don't know. I have a fan on my face, but anyway, uh, so went to our first knife show just as a visitor to the Solvang show.
00:06:50
Speaker
went to go that long That was that long. And so, uh, I'm, it was like, The only knives I knew to buy was at like Target or, oh you know, just hardware stores, 25 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever. And it breaks, you throw it away, get a new one. So when I walked into that Solvang show, there was only probably, at that time, maybe 50, 75, but they were the premium makers of all over. yeah I mean, they were all primo makers. And it was like, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
00:07:27
Speaker
I mean, it was unbelievable. And I couldn't believe the prices. I mean, it it was even back then that was a 90 whatever it was six or seven. And it was like $1,000 eyes $3,000. I mean, it was crazy.
00:07:41
Speaker
But that's where I and I met that's where I met Tim Hancock. For the very first time, didn't know him from Adam, just walking down the row and Marcy was beside me and She was dragging me from knife makers because I'd stop and just start picking their brain saying, I really want to do this and blah, blah. Hold on one second. How old do you at this point?
00:08:03
Speaker
oh Oh, let's see. 30 years ago. and Mid 40s, 45. A little too old to be starting this shit, but that's what did. I feel like because that's like five or six years younger than when I started. But Hancock, he enjoyed the banner back and forth. okay So we went on, went home.
00:08:34
Speaker
didn't I was still dinking around with my handmade anvil, with a coal forge. I hadn't built the gas yet. The next year I told Marcia, I said, we had to go back to Solbank. I said, a nice little weekend for us and blah, blah, blah.
00:08:50
Speaker
So we did. So I went back to Hancock's table and we were talking and I said, this is what I got. This is what I'm going to do. And he looked at me. He goes, you know, teach. I go, really?
00:09:01
Speaker
I said, where do you live? He goes, Scottsdale, Arizona. I'm going, that's not too far from me. ah I said, how much do you charge? How much is this? And he goes, I charge $1,000 three days.
00:09:14
Speaker
i didn't have I didn't have money back I mean, we were just, I was just farming tree fruit. I go, wow, okay, that's cool. Yeah, I plugged up my brain. And I started to walk away. He goes, but I guarantee you that in those three days, i'll your learning curve well will go up further than you can get if you're just doing what you're doing for the next five years.
00:09:38
Speaker
I go, bullshit. He goes, no, that's fact. That's a fact. In fact, if it doesn't, I'll give you your money back. I'm going to try to make this short because this, ah I'll never. know This is exactly the kind of stuff i want to know. This
Knife Shows & Selling Experiences
00:09:50
Speaker
all things on my list. i'll I'll figure. I mean, I'll never forget this experience in my life.
00:09:56
Speaker
So Marcy and I talked and she goes, well, if you're going to do this, you might as well learn from, we looked up Hancock, who he was, master Smith, blah, blah, blah. That shit, all his awards and crap.
00:10:06
Speaker
And she goes, if you're going to it, okay. You know, we'll scrape up the money. You can go drive out the blah, blah, blah. So I called him up. And, uh, oh, back, I was trying to, I was starting, ah I'd read a little bit, saw a bit about Damascus, know nothing about it.
00:10:23
Speaker
So I just said, Hey, put steel of leather, bring it up to forge. I would check with a coat hanger. Cause that where I read it, you know, if the coat hanger sticks to the steel inside the forge, it's ready to, it's ready to weld because everything's just crazy stuff. But anyway, I i kept doing this and I kept getting blisters in my steel.
00:10:41
Speaker
So I called Hancock cause I'd already made the appointment to come out and see him. Uh, Call him up, told told him what I was doing. And he just started laughing. He goes, you're using a really thin billet, aren't you? And I go, yeah, he goes, you ain't gonna work. He goes, just put that shit down for now. When you come out here, we'll go over that. And we'll I'll explain what's going on in mass and blah, blah, blah. I said, OK, no.
00:11:04
Speaker
So thep appointment the point that the class was scheduled for the first of June. OK, first of June here in the valley.
00:11:15
Speaker
is probably bouncing around the 90s, something like that. I mean, Arizona. So I go to Arizona. Meet Tim, blah, blah, blah. He introduced me to his wife. We go out to the shop. This is what we're going to do. He goes, the first thing that this was, we got there in the afternoon. So we were going to start the next morning. He was just giving me a little, he goes, about that Damascus you're trying to make. I decided that we're going to make a little billet for you.
00:11:42
Speaker
And I'll show you how to make just blah, blah, blah. I go, hey, cool. Then we'll get into making knives. I go, fine. So i yeah I said, what time do I need to be here? Because I had a little motel room.
00:11:54
Speaker
And he goes, let's start. It's going to be kind of warm. Let's start at 7 o'clock, I believe it was. I go, that's fine. Got there at 7 o'clock. I'm not shitting you now. At 7 o'clock in Scottsdale, it was 100 degrees.
00:12:06
Speaker
Oh, man. So we walk into the shop, and his, had his he had He had two two furnaces, two forges.
00:12:18
Speaker
He had a little power hammer.
00:12:22
Speaker
And what the hell do you have in the back? But it was no bigger than a big walk-in closet. I mean, so he gets dressed up. He's got a leather
00:12:36
Speaker
a leather apron. He's got a mask. He's got a welding helmet. And I'm looking at him. I'm going, what was all this shit?
00:12:46
Speaker
He goes, well, you know, he goes, I just try to be safe. You stand back. You got the forage going. He went through why the billet has to be, I forget what he told me, two and a half, three inches tall, four inches tall. It's about mass, and mass moving. He goes, you start off with something small. He goes, it ain't going to work. It's just not.
00:13:03
Speaker
He goes, besides, you'll have a lot of stuff you can work with. And then so he did. So. We finally got everything fired up going probably around 8 o'clock after he got done doing his spiel and stuff.
00:13:16
Speaker
By 1030, I put my hands up and I said, I'm done, Tim. I can't be here. And what's the matter? I go, it's got to be 150 degrees in here. I said, I'm about ready to pass out. He just started laughing. He goes, okay, we'll shut it down. So we get out of there. At least I knew how to put a billet together. I'm telling you, it was the hottest place I've been in my life. I don't know how he did it. It was incredible. So we got out of there, cooled down, had some water, sit around, shot the shit for little bit until I cooled down. And go, okie dokie, let's go. So then he just went over his process of how he designs a knife, how he sets it up. You know, he goes, you just, he goes, you just need to think tip to tang or tip to butt.
Teaching Philosophy & Mentoring Advice
00:14:00
Speaker
He goes, you start at the tip and you go all the way down to the butt and you're done. And so I go, explain. He goes, okay, he drilled and little three inch hunter four inch hunter and what it was put it up there and put little handle they drew on there okay this is the tip so we're going to forge that tip we're going to we're going forge that blade to a rough shape and we're going to get to the tip we're going to get that done we we know where the with the ricasso explained all this shit to me we're going stop there and then we're going to put a tang in and then we'll have a knife from the tip to the tang this is going to be a hidden tang knife and i go okie dokie so we went through that whole process
00:14:35
Speaker
process. So I was supposed to be there for three days. That was the first day. Okay. that's good I like the planning. I like the planning aspect to it so that So we quit about, I don't know, four o'clock, something like that, three o'clock, four o'clock in the afternoon on the first day.
00:14:55
Speaker
And he says, do you want to stay for dinner? when i said, no, no, i'm I'm tired. I just need to go back to the hotel. i said, thank you very much. So I did. I went back there, called Marcy and I probably didn't sleep, but maybe one hour that night because I couldn't get all this shit out of my head.
00:15:10
Speaker
I mean, it was just going around like a whirlwind. I mean, it's like, Jesus Christ. So I get there the next morning. And so we continue on. And about, I'm not kidding you. I don't know how to explain it.
00:15:22
Speaker
But he had given me so much information on how to build a knife, what to look for. the i mean, everything. If you can think about how to build a knife, that was given to me.
00:15:34
Speaker
By about 2.30, 3 o'clock the second day, i stopped and I said, Tim, I i got to leave. He goes, you got to leave where? I said, I got to go home. He goes, what are you talking about? I said, i I can't put any more information in my head. Honest to God. I said, I just, I can't think. I can't.
00:15:52
Speaker
Everything you're telling me now is just out there. And he goes, is it something I did or said? I go, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. It's just, i'm I can't do anymore.
00:16:05
Speaker
So I thanked him, gave him a thousand bucks. A discount? Nope, nope, nope. That's what we agreed upon. Here's your check. Thank you very much. I went home. I did. i went home. I'm really making this. I'll really make this short. And I've told this story to a lot of people. I don't know if they believe me or not.
00:16:21
Speaker
But for two, maybe three years, even now, even now, then 30 years later or whatever, something will pop in my head. But for the first two or three years after that, I would be working on a knife or whatever.
00:16:35
Speaker
And i I'd go, that's what Hancock was talking about. That's what I, you know what I'm saying? it so it' So information is kind of funny.
00:16:46
Speaker
Unless you can... You can be given all the information that that you need be given, but if you can't process it or understand what that information means, nothing's going to happen. if Nothing's going to happen. I could show you something that I could tell you over the phone how to do something, but if you can't process that, you have the information. I've given it to you. I'm not lying or anything, but if you can't process and information, nothing's going to happen.
00:17:09
Speaker
and so for two or three years no shit i'd be working on something i'd get in the problem go son of a bitch that's what he was talking about it was it was spooky it was just spooky it's so i i've told this story a bunch of times jared and i went to maker's camp which is in new york part of that marco mamasi was there doing basically a master class on grinding chef knives ah and and there was times during that and i've said this on the podcast many times like Like there was so much, like he basically did a Damascus, forging a Damascus knife all the way to handle an integral, you know. Yeah, uh-huh. There was so much, and I was still pretty new then, and Jared was brand new, that
00:17:52
Speaker
It's been the same thing. It's been years later when I'm like, oh, I get why he was doing that now. And even when i I took the folder class from you, yeah there's things that I do now. I go, oh, that's what he was talking about when you bend the the lock bar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally you get what you mean.
00:18:12
Speaker
Same thing, same thing. And so after so that first trip over, I think think we went back. I think we back went back to Solvang one more time.
00:18:25
Speaker
my anybody Tim was there, spent some time talking. In fact, we did, because he gave us two tickets. They have a dinner, I think it's saturday Friday night or Saturday night, that they get to invite invite their collectors or whatever to come in. There's wine and cheese and blah, blah, blah.
00:18:39
Speaker
So he gave Marcy and I two tickets to attend, and we did. And so I talked to him for a long time. And I said, I'm thinking I want to join the ABS.
00:18:51
Speaker
And
Challenges & Growth in Knifemaking
00:18:52
Speaker
I want to go through that process. Would you be willing to teach me to help me whatever? Well, yeah, absolutely. ah So for. must have been approximately what year is this?
00:19:07
Speaker
So probably 98 or 99, because I got my je journey journeyman's in 2001 and I had been working with him for about I was seeing him twice a year.
00:19:21
Speaker
for three years or four years working up nice through my journeyman. Did that, didn't went over there, did my test over there, blah, blah, blah. I went down to Atlanta, got my journeyman. Then I, he, then I spent, I had two years. I wanted to get my master's in the two years. They allow you.
00:19:39
Speaker
mean, you take for whatever, but anyway, so I probably saw him two or three times in a year and the the two year span. And,
00:19:50
Speaker
Learned a lot, even a lot more. back I mean, it's every time I walked in and talked to him, it's like it's hard to explain. But he had little gizmos and gadgets and things to help him do stuff like but he picked up this L looking thing with a bunch of notches in it and a couple of handles on it.
00:20:09
Speaker
The one time ah he goes, what do you we think this for? I said, I have no idea. It's for on the bandsaw. Look, I put this. I can't hardly hold this piece. Put it down there on a bandsaw. Then I go up there and it latches and I can move it however I want. I mean, just all just silly stuff like that. But it was it was cool. Anyway, I missed him. i Yeah, he was a great teacher.
00:20:30
Speaker
Great, great teacher. And so most and.
00:20:35
Speaker
I'm I don't know if he OK. Trim. Tim was probably a three or a four a personality. If you understand what I'm saying, he was, I mean, me, I might be a sub B personality.
00:20:52
Speaker
Seriously. But when I started working with Tim, and I would come home to my shop. I tried my damnedest to be an a personality.
00:21:05
Speaker
Because he always said, Look, it There's going to be times that you're building a knife and you'll go and it'll come into your head. You'll go, I'll go back to that later. He goes, big mistake. He goes, because you're going to go down further and you're going to go, holy shit i got But you've already, you've gone from, instead of going from A to Z, you skipped l L, M and N. And now you get to Z. You got to go back and try to fix L and N. You know what I'm saying? because you can't You can't do that.
00:21:32
Speaker
if you' If there's something happening in there, stop fixing. So that was probably one of the the biggest things I learned from him. And anybody that takes a class from me or I try to i try to push it, I'm looking.
00:21:46
Speaker
It might look good now, but it ain't going to look good when you're done. And you're going to go, holy shit, now what do I do? Just stop. If you've got to redo a part, redo the part. Whatever.
00:21:57
Speaker
But fix it before you go on. I mean, that's... Yeah, there's so many little things I've learned. So I'm going to pause right here because we're talking about parts and equipment. I think this is an excellent time to talk about one of our sponsors, Maritime Knife Supply. If you guys need anything for knife related, anything knife related, whether it's steel, abrasives, equipment, tooling, go check out Maritime Knife Supply. If Lawrence doesn't have it.
00:22:23
Speaker
reach out to him, he'll probably get it in stock. So go check him out. Maritimenifesupply.com or.ca if you're up in Canada. I totally agree with you, though. Like I always say knife making is learning how to follow steps in the right order and not skipping them because things get progressively harder if you... Progressively worse. Yes. Yeah. Now what I do with it? Yeah, this is ah I've got a couple of blame around in my shop.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I sometimes I'll bring them out this is a what not to do knife. Take a look at it. This is a what not to do knife. I have one of those in the stainless. I have my first stainless Damascus knife that is a what not to do knife sitting up on the ah on the shelf.
00:23:16
Speaker
So, one sorry, I'm going to get back to my notes. um So it's now 2001, you're, at your're yeah, you've got Journeyman. Yeah. and said So tell me, what um what advice would you give someone who's thinking of of starting to be, you know, in that I'm considering Journeyman level? well What's the first advice you would give them?
00:23:38
Speaker
What I tell them is, and I said, don't use me. Because that's not why i'm telling no no that's not why I'm telling you this. No, no. What I'm what i'm telling you is find somebody, a knife maker, a master smith, preferably, that you love their knives. You absolutely love their knives.
00:23:58
Speaker
And then you ask them, do you teach? And then you ask them if they say, yes, this is the journey I want to be on. Will you help me? And if they say yes, that's what I would do.
00:24:10
Speaker
And that's why I say, don't you know, I'm not telling you this to pick me to do that. I've helped a lot of people get their journeyman of masters. But ah it's so, in fact, i i think then I think the ABS needs to make that a requirement, that you have to be tutored or taken under the wings of another mastersmith or something.
00:24:32
Speaker
I mean, you think about 500 years ago, when whenever they had journeymen working to learn how to make barrels or whatever, they worked for how many years under the tutelage of a master barrel maker or master? An actual apprentice. Yeah, an actual apprentice. Right, exactly.
00:24:50
Speaker
I mean, I think that's so important. I mean, there's so much you can learn other than you trying to figure it out like I did when I was first doing this shit. I mean, i didn't know what I was doing. And Hancock would just laugh at me. I'll show you something. So, uh, I haven't been going to him. Uh, I don't know.
00:25:07
Speaker
couple of years. And we were getting into how to peen and dome pins for handles, you know? Yep. And he goes, so, he, goes, so he he goes um He goes, bring down a ball peen hammer on when you come this time because we're going to. So I brought down. i mean, it was a big old ball peen hammer. He started laughing. No, no, you don't understand. He goes, show me.
00:25:31
Speaker
Next time he comes down, we're going to do this. Bring a smaller ball peen hammer. This is what I bought. And I brought it. He goes, what the hell are you going with that?
00:25:43
Speaker
I mean, it's small. He goes, what are you going to do with that? I said, you told me to bring a small ball peen hammer. He about fell on the floor laughing. He goes, look, I i don't know if I've ever used that thing. I have it hanging up in front of me, though. This is a reminder. But it's communication is a big part of making knives if you're teaching and talk to somebody. and's So I don't know why I brought that up. I just happened to look at that hammer and thought of that. But it was funny because he just shook his head and started laughing. He goes, Jesus Christ, could you can make any smaller? and What are you going to do with that? I actually have one of those. they for everyone else that that It's like a little, what is that? A little six ounce hammer something like that? have, it's six ounce. Let's see. It says, oh no, this is
00:26:29
Speaker
A two ounce
Pursuing Master Smith Title
00:26:30
Speaker
hammer. A two ounce hammer, yeah. I have one of those that I use just for like knocking in like 16th inch pins in the folders and things like that. I actually use one of those. That's a good transition to I got that hammer and when I got it from Frank at Two Bastards Texas Smithy and Spice. If you guys are looking for a hammer, go check out Frank and Nita.
00:26:53
Speaker
Um, but he handed me that hammer at blade show and I thought it was a joke. I'm like, okay, sure. but What am I going to do with this? I actually use that thing all the time for knocking, um, liners together. So you just need a little help, but not, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's funny. Cause I have the exact same Yeah.
00:27:13
Speaker
That's funny. And so after I got my journeyman, uh, we made a plan. helped me form a plan. to do my masters.
00:27:24
Speaker
And he goes, this is kind of crazy too. He goes, look at,
00:27:31
Speaker
by the beginning of the second year, you're going to have your dagger done. Uh-huh. What? He goes, that's the first thing you're going to work on is your dagger.
00:27:44
Speaker
He goes, we already know that you can make a hunter and this and that for your other four knives for you to show. You know how to make Damascus now. You don't have a problem with that. You're going to do the dagger.
00:27:56
Speaker
I said, okay. I spent oh
00:28:02
Speaker
at least two months every day working on that dagger. I probably made, i don't know, a couple of blades. I had a hard time because I wanted to do a different kind of quillian.
00:28:15
Speaker
In fact, I've got them laying around here. I probably made two or three different quillium blocks. The, the, the quilliums themselves I had turned down, kind of looked like, uh, very much smaller, but like maybe a rook on a chest table that kind of, and so they screwed into the, into the quillium block.
00:28:38
Speaker
Uh, and I had a, i just, I couldn't get them. I couldn't get them lined up exactly right. I mean, it took me three, three blocks to get that done. And then, you know, just I went over there to take, he showed me how to flute and wire wrap a handle.
00:28:57
Speaker
I still have all that stuff. So I did that.
00:29:04
Speaker
Finally got it done. I took it over to for him to look at. It was all done. There was one tiny little, and I knew it, I knew it. But I,
00:29:15
Speaker
I couldn't get it out on the off side of the of the knife of the blade. If you sighted down the spine, they're not the spine, but the center of the blade. There was the tiniest little bitty tweak where I couldn't get it to be exactly straight. I mean, tiny. If you just held the blade away from me and looked at you probably wouldn't see it.
00:29:36
Speaker
And he saw that and he goes, honestly, because I don't think that's going to be a problem for you because it's a nice knife. It's very nice. I go, are you sure? goes, yeah, I think you're good.
00:29:48
Speaker
This is crazy. So at that at that time, I was involved with the the local blacksmith association here in Visalia in the Central Valley.
00:30:00
Speaker
And one of the teachers, one of the, he's a big dog, I'll think of his name here in a minute. Anyway, i happened to go to one of their meetings and we did it out at the park and they were forging something anyway.
00:30:14
Speaker
I brought that dagger with me to show him and another guy. Showed it to another guy, goes, ah, this is cool, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I showed it to him, he's looking at it, and he goes, you know, on the offside, you got a little bitty tweak right there in there. I go, yeah, I know.
00:30:30
Speaker
And I said, and in my mind, I go, fuck you. You built this thing. You might want to bleep that. Oh, no. We use lots of colorful words on the show. But it was like, really? And I'm thinking to myself, I'd like to see you make this knife.
00:30:47
Speaker
That's the problem. I'm going to start ranting here and just stop me. But that's the problem that I have. What's it went what's the saying? If you can, you do.
00:31:00
Speaker
If you can't, you teach or you teach or whatever. So all these people that are taking all these knives on the Internet, on what or it shows or whatever.
00:31:12
Speaker
fact, I won't say his name. I had a guy come up to you. This was when we were doing the Reno show. Came up, started picking one of my knives apart, and I said, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll supply you all the steel.
00:31:24
Speaker
I'll supply You come up to my shop. You can use all my equipment. I'll just stand back. make sure that you're okie doke, you can do it. And you make a knife better than that. He turned around and walked away from my table.
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah, try and try having a YouTube channel and read your comments about how you do it wrong. I can't, i can't imagine. how you say I'd go crazy. It's like, i just screw you people. You don't have a clue.
00:31:50
Speaker
I mean, really you don't. But so anyway, went to the show, learn larry friends with Larry Fagan, Larry Fagan and Tim were really tight. Uh, and so Tim said, he was staying at, uh, Waverly. And he goes, Hey, I'll have, uh, Fagan come up. If you want to bring your knives up and have him look at all of them.
00:32:12
Speaker
This is the night before the, the show and putting my knives up. So I did. He liked them all. I, I don't think he mentioned that little bitty, whatever the hell it was. Um, he goes, no, it looks good. You shouldn't have any problem.
00:32:26
Speaker
So, um I did. i didn't have a problem. mate I was happy. was a happy camper. Tim wasn't a judge, was he? Say that again?
00:32:38
Speaker
Was Tim a judge? no No, no. Neither was Larry. ah Back up. When I finished that dagger and I had a year to make my other four knives, which was a big deal.
00:32:50
Speaker
Because, I mean, I had... Gled, sweat, and tears over two months making that damn thing. making i mean, it was like every day. I mean, I was just sweating. A little piece of advice I'll tell is that remind me about painting cars.
00:33:02
Speaker
But anyway, I told Marcy, I said, i know we'd been robbed a couple of times living out on the farm. I go, she goes, we'll go down to the bank, you get you a deposit, lockbox, whatever you put in the bank.
00:33:15
Speaker
So I'd sat in a lockbox for damn near a year. If they went that night, they'd have to rob the bank. Back to the Back to the paint in the car. God, I don't know how you get old. Your brain fades here I'll think of his name here. and man's He's a nice guy, a nice maker out of Montana.
00:33:34
Speaker
And I was talking, going through my journeyman or master's, probably my journeyman, couldn't remember. Wade Coulter, neat guy. Anyway, I was talking to Wade one day on the phone.
00:33:49
Speaker
telling the problems I was having. I said, you know, Wade, my biggest problem right now is I'll get a knife finished. I'll put it down, pick it up the next day, look at it and see all the shit that I, and then I try to take it apart and fix it.
00:34:02
Speaker
I was driving me crazy. And he goes, you know, before I started making knives, he goes, I used to paint cars for a little, you know, that's what I did. I was car paint.
00:34:14
Speaker
And he goes, I kind of had the same problem. You know, if, If I'm looking at the car, getting ready to spray it and then I see oh little spot I missed with the sandpaper, go back. He goes, I go back and forth. time He goes, finally one day the boss came out and said, Wade, sometimes you just have to paint the car.
00:34:35
Speaker
And he goes, it turned all kinds of light bulbs on for it. And so he said, Mike, I'm telling you, sometimes you just got to paint the car. Just do the very best you can while you're doing it. so you And once it's done, it's done, put it down, and you're done.
00:34:47
Speaker
And it saved me so much grief. I'll never forget that so much grief and time.
Showcasing & Industry Involvement
00:34:52
Speaker
And I don't know if that makes any sense to you or whoever hears that. I'm in the show notes. I mean, I might call the episode. Sometimes you just got to paint the car. There you go.
00:35:02
Speaker
But that, that was cool. I, I, I dug that. I just, yeah, that was pretty cool. And so, uh,
00:35:13
Speaker
one thing Tim told me, um, Because i always thought, going through this whole process, that once I got my Master Smith, it was going to be like a ticket to ride it. I've heard from many, many makers, including Jason Knight and a bunch of others. So, Tim, one of the last things he told me, he goes, just because you get your Master Smith doesn't mean you're going to sell a knife.
00:35:40
Speaker
He goes, don't think of it in those terms. Right. Make the best knife you can make. And he goes, it might take a bit, but he also told me this. He goes, don't get all upset. Don't get worried. Don't start crying. If you go to a show and you got you end up with two or three knives left on your table.
00:35:59
Speaker
It just so happens that at that show, there wasn't anybody there that liked that knife. But he goes, I guarantee you there's somebody out there that's going to love that knife. He don't worry about it. If it's a good knife and you did your best, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:11
Speaker
So I do. If I don't if i don't sell all my knives, don't worry. I end up selling them, but. There for a while. It was like when I first started, you know, i'd look around at some of the I can't. The older master Smiths. By Saturday afternoon, the table was clear. going, holy shit, man. That's what I'll just come and get all my names on a Friday or whatever and be done with it. I'd be so cool. And and now it doesn't matter. You know, there's I probably only sold out four or five times in my 25 30 years career.
00:36:42
Speaker
career But I don't care. I mean, it doesn't mean that's not it doesn't reflect on who I am as a person or as a knife makers, I guess, is what i'm trying to say. So, yeah, I've never sold out. So, yeah, umm I'm not and not. But I have brought a lot of knives to the show. But, yeah, I mean, I like talking to people. I like hanging out at the show. Yeah, yeah me too. So I would be, don't know I've had nothing ated on the table to talk about if they all sold out Saturday. That's right. There's my pitch. When you said that, that that it tweaked another memory.
00:37:18
Speaker
When I first started going to shows, primary of the the Blade Show in Atlanta. Did that nine in 2000, I think. Something like that.
00:37:31
Speaker
Anyway, I thought more the merrier. i Probably, i don't know. had... 10, 12, 14 knives on there on my table. I just started building folders, two or three folders. One sitting at the table, Marcy, I don't know Marcy at the table time or not, I can't remember.
00:37:46
Speaker
Guy comes walking down, he stops, he looks at my knives, asked if he could pick up one, he did put it down, and he goes, man, you got a lot of iron on your table, don't you?
00:37:57
Speaker
They go, yeah, I guess I do. So I was telling Tim that. He goes, my advice is don't ever bring any more than four or five to six knives. They know what they are.
00:38:08
Speaker
Don't ever do that. I go, really? he goes, yeah. Why? He goes, if you can't present who you are as a knife maker in five to six knives, then you're doing something wrong or something's fucked up.
00:38:19
Speaker
He goes, somebody, once you've been doing this for three or four five years, somebody, if you're not at your table,
00:38:27
Speaker
the people that buy knives collect knives and and know their people or they're going to walk by at your table and you only have to be in they they're going to go those are veneno knives because it's like my knives they'll look at mine that hancock build that joe blow built that he goes so don't worry but you don't have to have 30 knives on your table he goes it just makes me laugh when i see that shit so i try not to bring any more than six knives that's just something I do. whatever get there but
00:38:58
Speaker
I can't, I can't help myself if I make like ah five or six buoys and then six or seven or whatever. I think I had six folders and six buoys this time. oh There you go. ah No, I get it. and And there's absolutely nothing wrong in it because it displays who you are and what you're doing as a knife maker. I mean,
00:39:19
Speaker
And your ah your knives are really, really nice. And so it's, yeah, it'd be different if they were like second year knife maker and they got 30 knives on there. And it's like kind of scary.
00:39:33
Speaker
It's like, what are you doing here? and Now's a good time to talk about another sponsor, Baker Forged and Tool. If you guys are looking for Beautiful Damascus, especially Copper Damascus, they are the guys to go and see. Also they have the the line of Gator Piss, which is the the regular, of the max or the heavy. So if you're looking for a premium etchant, go check that out. And now they've also got the Grime Reaper Cleaner and the Gator Skin Nano Ceramic Coating to protect your knives.
00:40:04
Speaker
So go check them out. Use the discount code triple T 10 at checkout and you will get 10% off. Also use the app um and you'll get early access to all this stuff because a lot of it's sold out by the time we even get to reading reading the ad on Tuesdays. So get their drops every Friday and get them over the weekend because they'll get sold out.
00:40:26
Speaker
But go check them out and tell them the boys of triple T sent you.
00:40:31
Speaker
and So, you did you what year did you get your master? Was it in 2003? 2003, yeah. Were you nervous going in or after you talked to Tim? and No, I mean, even though, I mean, it was like, yeah, I was nervous. I mean, because they weren't the judges.
00:40:53
Speaker
oh Do you remember who the judges were?
00:40:58
Speaker
I think.
00:41:01
Speaker
I think Wade Coulter was a judge.
00:41:10
Speaker
Gosh darn it. Wade Coulter. i want to say Newton, Ron Newton, but I'm not a hundred percent on that one. are any any of these guys still around?
00:41:23
Speaker
Wayne Coulter is. He's still doing stuff. Newton's retired. He's got a bad back. Can't hardly stand any anymore. ah I'm guessing. Oh, bad at the time. Batson was in charge of, he just passed away or not too long ago. Yeah. Um, but I can't remember who the masters were. hey Um, and you passed, of course your first, yeah your first trip. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah Yeah. I was nervous going in. I really was. Um, I had a, um, a guy
00:42:01
Speaker
He's dead too now. He died this year. i Came by my journeyman's table.
00:42:09
Speaker
My journeyman's table, I a 10 inch kind of a chopper buoy kind of thing. I had, that's another funny story. I had you could at that time, i don't know if they've changed it now.
00:42:22
Speaker
You could, as journeyman, you could have one folder. and yeah no rescue Yeah, not now. And it was one, I don't know what I was thinking of. And I thank Ron Newton. I'm telling you on your run if you're listening to this. But it was a little liner lock.
00:42:39
Speaker
I mean, I thought it was sweet. It was centered. It was everything. It was nice. But back then, i mean, it had just a little little rock playing up. A little lock play up and down.
00:42:52
Speaker
So those were my test knives, came back, I passed. Later that day, i had a tester's tables where I had back in the room, he came back.
00:43:04
Speaker
And he goes, I passed you. But you shouldn't make folders like that anymore. he goes, you can't have that little play in there. Everything else on the knife is great. But I just wanted to thought I thought I'd let you know, I thought that was nice of him for doing that.
00:43:18
Speaker
i mean, I think back then you could have You had five knives. You could get one one or two pink slips. I forget. If you had the majority or maybe one over, you passed. So i don't I don't know if that would have kept me. I mean, if anybody else saw that or cared about it, if that was one bad knife out of the five, I don't know. I mean, I didn't ask.
00:43:42
Speaker
I was just happy to pass. But anyway, at the table, guy comes over. I'm losing you a little bit. He goes, cool. He goes, introduce himself. I won't mention his name because he's dead now. anyway, he goes, I primarily can collect.
00:43:57
Speaker
In fact, that's all I've been doing for the last four or five years is master's daggers. I go, that's interesting. Still there? He goes, when are you going to go for your master's? I said, well, I hope to go for it in 03.
00:44:09
Speaker
He goes, I want your dagger. said, you haven't seen it. He goes, i don't care. I'm looking. i see your knives now. I said, okay, sure. He saw my German knives and he wanted to buy my master's knife, my master's dagger.
00:44:23
Speaker
And in fact, did, which I thought was kind of cool. He was all happy. So I was happy. Awesome. um So i know. you So it's 2003. You got your master.
00:44:37
Speaker
um How long before you actually became a director? You were a director in the ABS for a while, right? Yeah. um god what year was that i got out in 2015 probably 2010 maybe uh the atlanta show rick dunkerly was on the was on the board came up to me he said take a walk with me so we were walking he goes you ever thought about being on the board don't know would you like to be on the board i don't know i guess why he goes well i'm going to get off and they asked me
00:45:11
Speaker
if there was somebody i would recommend to get on the board. I said, yeah, sure. What the hell? is Whatever. So he did and I did. And so then, I was on the, I think it was 2009 or 10.
00:45:28
Speaker
nine or ten And so i was on for like four or five years. Anyway, Marcy ended up getting breast cancer and 14. And, uh, I didn't, I mean, I, they were,
00:45:40
Speaker
I just didn't want to, had other things to do. So I called him up and told him why, and that I had to, that I wanted to get off the board and thank you for blah, blah, blah, blah. So I got off in 2014 or 2015, whatever. Uh,
00:45:58
Speaker
what was that like being on the board? Frustrating. Um, for me, I mean, first of all, they thought I was wacko cause I was from California.
00:46:09
Speaker
Um, And they were doing, so I mean, so I kind of I kind of, my father, so I grew up in a manufacturing kind of growing up.
00:46:24
Speaker
I mean, my dad was, he ran couple of, he ran a bit. Anyway, i that's how I learned. I learned business, how to buy stuff, sell stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah blah how to move stuff around.
00:46:39
Speaker
and so listen to these people in and the board I'm just gone this makes no sense to me what they're wanting to do here so I'd raise my hand open up and they'd look at me like I was a zombie or something so they would give me you know projects to do or to help on and I do the best I could or whatever um
00:47:02
Speaker
was frustrating so and tooth What the hell a year was it? We could look this up. there was ABS had a hammer-in down in L.A. that was put on by red St. Cyr and Bill Herndon. They had that down there for a number of years, went down there one or two times.
00:47:24
Speaker
For whatever reason, i don't I can't remember why they quit doing the hammer-in down there. i don't know if it was they couldn't find the right venue or whatever. I just don't remember.
00:47:36
Speaker
So after a couple of years, somebody came up to me and said, you know, we need an ABS hammer on the West Coast. And the Central Valley would be a perfect place to do it, halfway between L.A., halfway in San Francisco, blah, blah. blah So I kicked it around my brain a little bit and talked to Marcy. And she said, yeah, I'll help.
00:47:59
Speaker
So went to the board at
Knifemaking School & Community Events
00:48:01
Speaker
the board. I said, I want to do an ABS hammer in Visalia.
00:48:08
Speaker
Sure. So, yeah, you can, know, good. So, at that time, I was, maybe it was a little earlier than that.
00:48:19
Speaker
Anyway, there was I ran into a guy at the California Blacksmiths Association. in fact, he was one of the guys that looked at my dagger. And he got a hold of me after that. He goes, I just bought a a building in Exeter, California, that i I want to do two or three different forms of of craft stuff.
00:48:41
Speaker
I go, okay, like what? He goes, well, knife making for one, then I'll have a half of the building, or portion of the building, then the other portion i'm going to have blacksmiths doing their stuff, then I'm going to have a guy come in and do glass blowing and blah, blah, blah.
00:48:58
Speaker
I go, yeah, cool. He goes, would you help me set it up? I go, sure. So I went down and saw the building, it was the coolest damn building, all old brick, it was probably built in the God, don't know, early 1900s or whatever.
00:49:12
Speaker
Anyway, it was big. It was split down the middle. He goes, you can have this for your knife making. Just kind of make up a list what you're going to need. And then we'll go from there. And so I did.
00:49:23
Speaker
We had, I had
00:49:30
Speaker
one, two, three, four, eight complete stations. I had tables built that were long enough. And if you split it down the middle, one guy on one side, one guy on the other side, they both had their own grinder. now They all had their disc grinder.
00:49:50
Speaker
They had everything you needed to make a knife. And that was their station. They had all the tools, everything. Was this going to be a school? or is Yeah, it yeah no that's was a school. was going to be a school.
00:50:02
Speaker
And ah don't know where this guy got the money. but I bought all the grinders from, from, uh, Oh, I've got one. What the hell's the name of it? KMG or G. I mean, k g yeah, KMG.
00:50:15
Speaker
So, and I knew the guy, think he's still down there. Told him what I was doing. He goes, wow, that's a lot of grinders. I go, yeah. He goes, I'll tell you what, you buy those grinders, I'll come in out and set them up for you.
00:50:27
Speaker
I said, cool. So I told the the guy, is that perfect? Do it. So I did. He came out we set up the grinders. Uh, had forages. I had two forages. um cause i mean One class would be on a forged camping knife. The next one would be on folders. Then I would have makers come in. like I had Richard Rogers come in and do a week on slip joints. I had Rick Newton come up and do a week on canned Damascus.
00:50:56
Speaker
um I had a Harvey Dean come up and do one on think he was doing the guards and then I think something like that Hancock came up and did a class he came up a couple of times just anybody I could get that people knew would come in and do a class and so that was going pretty good and at that time then he started doing his blacksmith and he got a guy that set that shop up and coolest and it was all coal forged god damn it was nice anyway I told him I said hey
00:51:32
Speaker
The ABS says it's okay to do a hammer in there. How about if we have the hammer in here? he goes, oh, that'd be perfect. So the first two hammer ins were at that, at the it was called Forge and Fire or whatever the hell it was.
00:51:44
Speaker
The first hammer in that we had, there was more makers there than more people from the, I mean, it was small. mean, it was really small. Second one, it was a little bit bare.
00:51:57
Speaker
In fact, it was almost to the point where we couldn't hold anymore, but there wasn't enough people there, I mean, to have it a sustained thing that we would do every year. ago So had a buddy that was down there. He was a blacksmith, and he was also, what do you call a teacher at a college where you're not? a Professor?
00:52:16
Speaker
No, but he was like a not a stand-in, but he wasn't, and I'll think of it. Anyway, he was teaching about blacksmithing and welding at the local ah College of the Sequoias, which was a two-year school, junior, whatever the hell they call it.
00:52:36
Speaker
So he went over there and talked to them. And he goes, you've been to where I teach welding? I go, yeah. I said, yeah. It was but gigantic. I mean, it was big.
00:52:47
Speaker
He goes, they said, we could have it here. So then I started having the hammer in over there. And it just started growing. I think our first year that we did it over there, I can go back and find the records, but whatever year it was. I think we had like maybe 60 people show up.
00:53:04
Speaker
And I had, I always try to get two or three guys from out of state. I just wanted to bring in different ways of thinking about making knives and different perspectives. and but That kind shit. So the next year, then it grew.
00:53:18
Speaker
ah And by the time we reached about 75 people, 80 people, eighty people I was still on the board. And their whole idea, it was crazy. just Their whole idea was they were expecting all these instructors to come out on their own dime.
00:53:40
Speaker
To California. Yeah. And to teach because they're ABS, blah, blah, blah. And i was I said, I'm not going to do that. Really? what are you going to I I'm going to pay them. And I'm going to charge these people 125. At the end, was like,
00:53:53
Speaker
30 bucks or 50 bucks to come to a hammer-in. It was nothing. 100 and 125 bucks. You can't do that. Yeah, I can. I said, I'm not going to have anybody come out here and do this for free. Because they've left their shop for a week to do this.
00:54:06
Speaker
And they've whatever money they make in that week is history. And now they're putting money on top of it come out here and promote us. Hand forge blades. But that ain't going happen. They pissed them off, but I did it anyway.
00:54:18
Speaker
The last two hammer-ins I had. before I quit. We were the only hammering in the United States that was sending money back to the ABS after I paid, I paid their freight out there, I paid their hotel bill, I fed them and I gave them it wasn't much I might have paid him 300 bucks or 400 bucks, whatever, whatever I could come out of that. least Then after all of that, pocket yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.
00:54:46
Speaker
And so After i got I got all the money in from everybody, and we sold T-shirts and all that shit there too. And, you know, we had merch kind of place. but And then we always had a Saturday we had, you know, everybody kind of bring something that they had that they were willing to auction off. And so we did that. We raised quite a bit of money in the auctions, but I was the only one that was sending money back to the ABS with my hammer in.
00:55:14
Speaker
I was kind of proud of that. was like I had no idea there was a hammer in in California. Yeah. You would have loved it. Too bad there isn't one now. Well, I... So, the reason that we quit having that hammer in there wasn't because I quit this. The ABS board.
00:55:33
Speaker
It was because the guy that was in charge of the welding department the like kind of big muckety muck, the guy that my friend worked under, decided he wasn't going to, he didn't want to be there on weekends when we had the hammer. And so he wasn't going to do it anymore.
00:55:57
Speaker
I go, Bill, can't you do it? He goes, no, I'm just God damn it. Just a, what the hell you call them? Kind of like a substitute. kind of thing Yeah. Okay. But anyway, so,
00:56:15
Speaker
They decided we're not going to have it there. But it was either the president or vice president. Loved the hammering. He goes, you know, we just built another ah building that's halfway between here and Tulare, which is seven miles away, so like three or four miles from the campus. And he goes, it's totally, that the whole building, it's just welding and blacksmithing. Go down there and see if you like that. and if you like that, you can do it down there.
00:56:43
Speaker
So we did. fuck It was nice. oh we had oh we had They had tables. They had chairs. All we had to do was show up. They had hammers. They had everything to make knives.
00:56:56
Speaker
So we did that for three years maybe. Then I don't know the politics of the school or whatever.
00:57:09
Speaker
Bill, my buddy that worked there was on whatever I'll think of the name of that. He goes, I think we're done here. And what do you mean you think we're done here? And he goes, well, the guy that now is in charge of the police force, they had their own cops, said that he's not comfortable um
00:57:31
Speaker
putting on a classes that are building weapons. Sounds like California. ah You can kind of guess time frame of what's going on. right yeah of course I go, weapons? What the hell is he talking about?
00:57:46
Speaker
Most of these knives, you can't do anything with it. They're just people banning on, you know, I was getting pissed. He goes, up I'm just telling So I went and talked to him. He goes, nah, he goes that's this is no good because these are weapons and it's it's our thing and our right of constitution, whatever, no weapons allowed, blah, blah, blah.
00:58:05
Speaker
So that was the of that. So in the meantime, those two guys are gone. Two years ago, my buddy Bill said, guess who I got a phone call from? i go, who's that?
00:58:19
Speaker
forget his name. He is now the big muckety-muck over there. he wanted He wanted to know if we wanted to bring the hammer in back. I go, you're kidding me. He goes, nope. And so I'm trying to get out of California.
00:58:33
Speaker
Marcy and I, she retires this year. then we're on the hunt. So I told Bill, I said, you know, I'd love to do that. And Marcy probably helped me get it going again. But I really don't want to start a hammer in unless I know that there's somebody going to be behind me that's going to carry it on because I don't want to do this for one or two years and then leave and have it go to shit. That makes no sense to me. i won't do that.
00:58:54
Speaker
I can't find anybody to come in and take it over if I leave. Yeah. If it was a little closer, maybe I'd consider it. It's a lot of work. I mean, a lot of work. Marcy worked her ass off the for a week. or And she's doing her other business and all that crap. But she found time to do it. But, I mean, we had yeah, it was um it was a lot of work.
00:59:13
Speaker
But it was fun. It was a good three days or four days, whatever the hell we did. Yeah. Yeah. You missed some good hammer-ins. You're good. Two and a half hours for me. And that's too far to. Yeah. You can't commute. Yes. and Well, not, not if I got to go down and do stuff, you know, prep work and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah.
00:59:33
Speaker
So. i' Uh, I want to do another ad read, but then, uh, I want to talk to you about your knives and, uh, some of the folders you've been making, but, but first I want to talk about, since we mentioned grinders, want to talk about Maribraid. Uh, if you guys are looking for.
00:59:49
Speaker
An amazing two by 72 grinder, go check out the fastback two by 72 from Ameribraid, uh, built by engineers. These guys are, are.
01:00:01
Speaker
top notch engineers making grinders, not just for knife makers, but for you name it. So check out Ameribraid.com, use the discount code TTT10 for 10% off accessories or triple t just TTT for discounts on
Transition to Folding Knives
01:00:17
Speaker
machines. They also have the HyperDisk which is that amazing not just a disc grinder but replaceable um turret, pivot, whatever, um where you can change it to a buffer, you can change it to a whole bunch of different wheels. So go check out the HyperDisk while you're there.
01:00:34
Speaker
Um, so since I've known you mostly what yeah i I think what you've made is folders. So when did you transition into folders? So that was another thing. And I, uh, probably, well, so the first, the very, I'm trying to think this is correct.
01:01:00
Speaker
The very first knife show that i ever did. was the San Francisco Knife Makers Association, whatever the hell they called themselves up there. Went up there, and mostly, in fact, all of my knives were fixed blades, and most of them were kitchen knives, because I do all the cooking. A long time ago in another life, I had a restaurant.
01:01:23
Speaker
So anyway, kitchen knives were just what I did. But I was out walking the room one day, and walked up this guy's table, Dennis Fraley, He learned from Stan Fujisaki when he lived in Hawaii.
01:01:37
Speaker
He was living in California now and He was just a folder maker And I'm looking at him looking at his table and his knives and he let me play with him i go I go I love mechanical things. I want us. I want to start making folders. I mean, I just Kind of a geek when it comes I love how things work why they work why they do what they do and blah blah blah says really i go. Yeah,
01:02:04
Speaker
He goes, I'll help you out. Really? He goes, give me your address and I'll send you down. I still have the envelope around there somewhere. I'll send you down all the parts, drawing, little instructions on how to build one of these liner locks.
01:02:16
Speaker
Nice. I go, I go, really? goes, yeah, I'll send you down the screws and everything and where to buy shit if you want to get into it So he did. He did. I don't know, week or two later, I got to open this envelope and a little, you know, what's in the, what's in the envelope, what's in the parts and blah, blah, blah. And this is what you do.
01:02:33
Speaker
I still have that folder I'm even embarrassed to look at it. It really doesn't work. I was so proud of that knife, but what a piece of junk. But that was enough. That's all it took. um So any show that I went to after that, the only people that i really talked to were makers making folding knives.
01:02:50
Speaker
How do you do this? How do I set this up? that You know, I just get bits and pieces of info. I even bought two or three books on folders. And um So I still made fixed blades, but my heart was in folders. I mean, I just loved the way. So I'm not to get too carried away here. But my my whole idea about making the knives, whether it's a fixed blade or a folder, is that it does what it's supposed to do.
01:03:23
Speaker
I don't care what it looks like. I don't care if it's Damascus, stainless, carbon, and whatever. It doesn't matter. It does what it's supposed to do. The same with a folder. I was more concerned, and still today, more concerned about how it operates.
01:03:40
Speaker
Is it operating the way it's supposed to operate? Does it do all the things it needs to do to but to be a knife, a folding knife that locks open if you want to build a locking knife? blah blah blah All the other stuff is, I probably shouldn't say this, I call it Pakistani stuff.
01:03:59
Speaker
Only because of the little carts, they walked around with all the different crap and shit they got. That's all that we're, oh, and I do the same thing. I'm not saying I don't, but all the other stuff is just dress.
01:04:11
Speaker
It's the skirt. It's the blouse. It's the tie. It's the whatever you want to call it. It's got nothing to do with how that knife works. So I'm typically on my knives. I'm a mentalist when it comes to that stuff.
01:04:24
Speaker
And Marcy is, you need to dress these up, Mike. You know, she you need a a little pizzazz. So I do. I mean, I try. Mark does the opposite. I'm the one that wants to put up the dress on it. She tells me to keep it simple. Yeah, I know. But so that's that's my whole, that's what I think about when I set out to make a folder is
01:04:52
Speaker
I taught I'll back up here a little bit. I used to go up to Susanville to the little college up there. They have NRA school up there.
01:05:09
Speaker
and in fact, it was Bill Herndon that told me about it. He goes, you know, I used to go up there and teach a fulgur class, a knife making class, knife making class.
01:05:21
Speaker
He goes, but I don't want to do it anymore. He goes, you ought to talk to him. I'll give you the number. So I called him. Yeah, we're looking for somebody because we got and grinders and shit to make knives and crap, but they had nobody to teach them.
01:05:34
Speaker
ah There are a few requirements. You either have to have a degree from college, which I did, or blah, blah, blah. I did. went up there. And it was fun it was ah It was a whole week.
01:05:46
Speaker
um I think the first class I did was –
01:05:51
Speaker
yeah My buddy again from COS. My first class was a slip joint.
01:06:03
Speaker
So I got my buddy here. I said,
01:06:07
Speaker
I want you to make a knife the way I tell you to make the knife. And you can't use a grinder. We're going to file blade. Because I really didn't know what they had for blades and for whatever.
01:06:19
Speaker
so So I got it around here somewhere, the pattern. It was just a know-nothing pattern, single blade. And so we did. And ah
01:06:32
Speaker
just two sides, the spring and the blade. It was all about the knife. The whole project was about how to make the spring, how to make the tang of the blade so that it'll flush when you open it, flush at half, flush when you're close. That's the whole deal. That's the knife. If you can do that, you can do anything you want to with the knife. You can put whatever. It doesn't matter. Sure.
01:06:55
Speaker
So, and it didn't take, I i said, we only we're we're going use thin steel for the blade in the and the spring just so these guys are going filing it. I don't want spending three days filing a blade when they can get it done in an hour or two. And that's what he did. GGG. It wasn't the prettiest, but it got done. I mean, it was done.
01:07:12
Speaker
think he still has that knife somewhere. We did. And then we now I go through the heat treat process. That was part of the class. You know, this is how you do this. And this is how you, I mean, it was all part. It was a fun class. Then there are times other classes I did up there.
01:07:28
Speaker
i just kind of went and we did a liner lock and we did, i don't know. Well, I he did a lock back, whatever. I did it for three or four years. um
01:07:39
Speaker
I think it was the last class of the, next to the last year, Tom Ferry, helped me. He taught me how to engrave, basically. So he helped me with that. he's been He came and did our hammer in, and John Christensen, his cousin's a knife maker, really.
01:07:56
Speaker
Anyway,
01:08:01
Speaker
Ferry, I said, Ferry, you need to do an engraving class the same time I'm doing a knife making class. Maybe you can do your graving in the evening, And then after my folding class, I can come and take it. It's just, you know, trying to work all this shit. in so so i called I called the lady who I can't remember a name.
01:08:21
Speaker
I said, hey, I got a buddy that is a master engraver. is he a master He's a master bladesmith also. And I'd like for him to come down and do an engraving class. They used to have an engraver there. And I could think of the name. You'd know the name. He was a pretty famous guy. i don't know if he died, quit, retired, whatever. But she said, oh, that's kind of cool.
01:08:41
Speaker
Does he have a degree? i go, from college? I don't think so. She goes, that's a problem. He's a master smith. Do you understand that? do you know what it takes to become a master smith? It's a lot more than going to four years of college.
01:08:54
Speaker
Really? So anyway, we got him in. He came down. I'm only telling you this to set this up. We were talking about making knives. After the class, we were all down. I was down at his room.
01:09:08
Speaker
He and John were there we were having a beer drinking and showing a few knives and whatnot. And they, all their knives had Damascus on it. I said, you know, sometimes I think I did this backwards.
01:09:20
Speaker
And they both go, this is, what do you mean backwards? I said, I only made Damascus just as ah something to put on the knife. I mean, I don't have any recipes.
01:09:33
Speaker
I just make, the i know how to do
01:09:38
Speaker
different patterns in the steel. It's just not twisted or it's just not a ladder. It's like I can make whatever, but I don't know what it's going to look like until I'm done. So I didn't pay attention to that shit. I was more concerned about how a knife works and putting it together. Then the rest of it's just, and they both looked at me and they said, Tom was first and John agreed.
01:10:01
Speaker
I feel the other way. I should have done what you're doing with your knives and the Damascus because they all, they're It kind of made me feel good. You know, it's like a lot of people say that, including Sofredo, Rodrigo Sofredo says the same thing.
01:10:17
Speaker
Make a perfect monosteel knife before you go to yeah Damascus. Damascus and whatever else, because it's just show. I mean, it is to me. i mean, yeah, I shouldn't say just show.
01:10:31
Speaker
A really well-made Damascus blade is a great blade. It's easier to maintain than a carbon blade. If you think about it, you get a little rust or get some, take a little 4,000 grit steel wool done. And you haven't done anything to Damascus. It's good or whatever. You do it on a carbon blade. You got pits and all kinds of shit you got to deal with.
01:10:49
Speaker
So in those, yeah, I mean, I'm not poo-hooing Damascus. I like, I think it's pretty, it's cool, blah, blah. I'm just saying my brain is how it works. Yeah.
01:11:00
Speaker
Yeah. Um, Another ad read, if you guys are looking for some premium handle material, go check out Grip Tech Composites.
01:11:11
Speaker
They are the the makers of Grip X, which is that amazing material that has little rubber beads inside of ah a resin and different colors available. This week is Bora Bora Blue is the color. Wait.
01:11:28
Speaker
on maybe i jumped the gun uh sorry that's what's the date today oh no it's right i jumped the gun that's next week you're not supposed to know this week is classic purple um so uh go check out classic purple bora bora is gonna start next week bora bora blue uh so go check out the color that we can get um get a discount on that and use the discount code TTT10. You can also check out the GripX 3D, which is their 3D printed um color, so you get that cool pattern under it. So go check them out, GripTech Composites or GripTech Official on IG.
01:12:11
Speaker
And while I'm here, I'm going to finish these off. If you guys are looking for and a heat treating oven, you got to check out Even Heat Kilns, family owned and operated since 1948, making the highest quality heat treating ovens available.
01:12:27
Speaker
I have two, Jared's got two, Mike's shaking his head. I'm sure he's got one or two back there. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So go check them out at Even Heat Kilns. And again, them the boys Triple T sent you.
01:12:39
Speaker
um One thing so I do want to talk to you about is that we're coming, well, we are both going to Rick's place for a folder class in August. So I'm excited about that.
01:12:51
Speaker
That is that bolt Bolster release auto, which I'm pretty excited about learning. And you got some other cool designs I've talked about on the show before the scale release, which I love. And as soon as you're ready to teach that, I'll be there.
01:13:07
Speaker
um But you also have another company that does knives and I'm intrigued by some of those. Tell me a bit more about that of your company. The company is called terrain 365.
Terrain 365 & Innovative Materials
01:13:20
Speaker
ah My partner, Patrick Ma, who owns hu Prometheus design works. um We started the company and 18 little backstory.
01:13:33
Speaker
When I first took that very first forging class, Up in Sebastopol. um He was friends with David Bowie, who lived then in California.
01:13:47
Speaker
And David Bowie was messing around with dendritic cobalt. He was making kitchen knives and other knives with that. And Carl was, he goes, it's kind of neat stuff. You you you don't forge it. there's He goes, it's got to be cast, but it doesn't rust. It holds a great edge.
01:14:07
Speaker
He goes, it's neat stuff. but So that just kind of sunk in my brain. Anyway, I bought Carl. Carl suggested I buy David Bowie's book. He just happened to have some there.
01:14:18
Speaker
He probably got a kick back on it. But anyway, so I bought it. And he talks about his dendritic cobalt. So I don't know. It wasn't much longer after that. For shits and giggles, I started getting on the Internet, looking up dendritic cobalt and how to make knives.
01:14:33
Speaker
And they were all cast. I go, okay. Well, so I started looking in. What's it take to cast, say, a kitchen knife? Well, first you have a have to have a mold made.
01:14:45
Speaker
And back then, ah mold was probably around $10,000 or $12,000 because you had to have somebody draw it put it in a cad, they blah, blah, blah. Sure, yeah. That's for one blade.
01:14:58
Speaker
I go pass. guy and I'm not going to spend 12 grand on a mold and then you're going to find a foundry that poured a crap. And I'm guessing they're not going to pour just one blade. So.
01:15:09
Speaker
Yeah. And that's if you get it perfect on the first one. yeah to read with more Absolutely. i've yeah I've got a couple here. So I just kind of plugged it in the back of my mind. 2017. Before.
01:15:22
Speaker
before The USN show I was doing the USN show then in Las Vegas. I get a call. Oh. Let me back up.
01:15:33
Speaker
This is spooky shit. And I'm sure you. I don't know why I was. Back to searching for dendritic cobalt and. and foundries.
01:15:48
Speaker
I can't remember why i was doing that on my computer.
01:15:53
Speaker
So before the show. probably a month before the show, I get a call. This is Mike Vanillo. Yes, it is. This is, gave me his name, gave me the name of his company.
01:16:06
Speaker
goes, I understand that you're looking for, did I lose you again? No, you're still there. no He goes, I understand you're interested in dendritic cobalt and knives. I go, how do you know that?
01:16:17
Speaker
He goes, well, you know, Spy shit. I don't know how people know this shit when you get on crap. and I go, okie dokie, sir. So whatever. He goes, so anyway, I had designed, in fact, Jason Knight thought it a cool knife. Anyway, I designed a knife for scuba divers and stuff. It was just all one piece, holes in the handle.
01:16:40
Speaker
i just thought it was a cool looking knife. And so, yeah, I do. I have a design. I have ah i have it drawn out. He goes, well, send it to me. I did. He goes, do you care where this knife is forged or cast?
01:16:56
Speaker
I go, what do you mean? He goes, would you mind if it was cast off seas or offshore? i go, I guess not. I didn't know anything about Chinese knives, any of that stuff. right Yeah, sure, whatever, offshore. Could have been in Hawaii for all. Anyway, so about, I don't know, two or three months later, i get a package from him that had three of those knives cast.
01:17:26
Speaker
So I called him up. And he goes, well, they they did a sample for you. They made the mold. And I what do you mean? I didn't tell anybody to make the mold. He goes, ah that's okay. I go, so if i want to own that if I want to own that mold, how much is it going to be to me?
01:17:42
Speaker
He goes, oh, I have $3,000 or something. I go, i can okay. I said, the only problem with these knives, they're not quite right. The cutting edge is way too thick. They need to thin that down. He goes, I'll get a hold of them.
01:17:54
Speaker
So did they machine it after? They must machine it. They they they they must have. Well, they had to, they had to machine the mold. They had to do something to mold. Yeah. but I mean, once it's cast, they have to machine it. Yeah. So the blade, i I got it around here somewhere. I mean, it was, it was probably 80,000 stick, 90,000 stick. They're cutting it. It was thick.
01:18:15
Speaker
And I said, it can't be this. It's got to be like maybe five thousandths. I mean, it's got to be cast. And he goes, okay, I'll tell him.
01:18:25
Speaker
So then um
01:18:32
Speaker
they got it done, sent it back.
01:18:36
Speaker
I'm trying to think if they just sent me one or two, couple of them. I said, yeah, that's really close. That's good. I go, so How many of these do I have to order at a time?
01:18:49
Speaker
He goes, well, that's going to be the problem. I go, why is that? Because they told us, guess his boss or whoever, that they're really not interested in doing it after they did all this shit.
01:19:02
Speaker
I go, really? Yep. I said, so now what? He goes, I'll get that mold and I'll send it to you. And it's your mold. I go, then what?
01:19:13
Speaker
He goes, well,
01:19:16
Speaker
i've I've kind of convoluted this story a little bit, but that's the crux of it. So I started looking for foundries here in in the States.
01:19:28
Speaker
And I found one in Utah. Called them up, told them was doing, told them what I have. And he goes, send that mold up. I'll see if I can use it.
01:19:40
Speaker
Because they're not all the same. They have different injection ports and different ways they do it and all that stuff. So i did.
01:19:52
Speaker
He goes, we'd really have to change it a lot for it to fit on our equipment to do this. I go, OK, I get it. He sent it back to me.
01:20:04
Speaker
In the meantime, I kind of put that aside. Well, actually, I did. I found another foundry that would run They said, Yeah, we can use that.
01:20:18
Speaker
I said, Can you run me 25 of I can, they did. So that became our first knife for and so that was 2017 2018 at the show. um I see Patrick, I've known Patrick all all my knife making career. He's known him the same amount of time.
01:20:33
Speaker
Patrick, this is what I'm doing. What do you think he goes really, I go this is neat stuff. It's rest proof. I mean, blah, blah, blah. he goes No shit. i going Yeah, he goes.
01:20:45
Speaker
Well, why don't we start a company and just start selling these things? So we did. Terrain 365.
01:20:52
Speaker
That was our first knife, a fixed blade. We sold a few, but I knew that this company ain't going work with just fixed blades. So I said, we need folders.
01:21:04
Speaker
He goes, well, why don't we do this? why guys He says, I already have folders that I sell a lot of that are established through PDW. Why don't we do a collab with them? Terrain will use their design for the folder, but we'll put our teravantine, which is our dendritic cobalt, as the blade, and that'll be Terrain's knife.
01:21:23
Speaker
And I go, that was good to me, so that's what we did. And it took off from there. So in the meantime, while this is going on, I didn't want to build. Uh-oh.
01:21:34
Speaker
What's up? Well, you said, oh, crap, I forgot I need to order something. But anyway. But anyway, that wasn't good for you. Okay, never mind. Oh, crap. Anyway, so I go, okay, I told Patrick, I said, if we're gonna if we i don't know how many different folding knives we can't build a mold for each one of these damn blades, it'll bankrupt us. I mean, even if it's four grand a piece for each mole.
01:21:57
Speaker
I said, let me think about it. So I did I thought about it. I go, I know what I'm gonna do. And I had a buddy here in town that helped me make it. I called the guy in Utah first. I said,
01:22:09
Speaker
How about if you send me down schematic of your machine? I got a buddy here that will help me make a mold and it's going to be a flat bar.
01:22:20
Speaker
I'll get that flat bar and then I can take and I have little folder blades cut out of that flat bar. He goes, yeah, I can do that. So he did. My buddy came over. He was a machinist. He had a CAD or a CNC at the time.
01:22:34
Speaker
We got the mold made. it I mean, just. cut out a rectangle on both sides and have a couple of, you know, sprue ports and all that shit. And it's on springs and got it made, sent it up there. And the said, yeah, this is work. How many you want?
01:22:47
Speaker
I said, well, can you send me, need to see each bar was, how was that original bar? Three by, no.
01:22:59
Speaker
Yeah. Three by 12 inches. I figured I could get like 10 blades out of each bar. So he did. I said, how much for 20 bars?
01:23:11
Speaker
And back then, this was 2018, it was $50 a bar. Wow, that's cheap. Yeah, well if that was then. Now it's not cheap.
01:23:22
Speaker
So he did. Got them, sent them off to get the blades cut. We did our first our first folder for Terrain 365 was our Invictus AT.
01:23:34
Speaker
Came back, they were perfect. Just the blades were perfect. Jesus, man, we hit a home run here. So, i called him back up in a couple of months. I said, I need 30 more bars because by then, Patrick's got another knife that we're going to do. then the bars started coming back with little pits in them.
01:23:56
Speaker
Not all them, but you cut out a blade, there'd be pits. So, I called I said, I'd send him some blades. I go, these ain't going work. So, He reimbursed me a couple of times because I can't do this anymore. He said, you know, if you can't use this the way it is, then that's that. I said, how come the very first 30 bars or 20 bars you did for us, they were perfect. There was no pit. They were perfect.
01:24:22
Speaker
But now they're not. I don't understand it. Have you changed your recipe or whatever? He goes, well, what what will we do in a cobalt recipe, there's like 27 different recipes.
01:24:32
Speaker
We have our own special little recipe in there. And he goes, well, you know, like if I, if I need a little bit of this, i need little bit of that. I'll just kind of throw it in to make up for the, to, to recycle it kind of stuff.
01:24:46
Speaker
He goes, that's what I've been doing on your, there's bars that I said, i ain't going work. So in the meantime, I found another foundry, uh, in LA.
01:25:00
Speaker
So he sent me I said, well, send me back my mold. He sent it back to me. i took it down to L.A. Can you use this mold, make me flat bars? Because he's making my little he's making the fixed blades.
01:25:12
Speaker
He goes, yeah, we can do that. So he did. And we're running the same problem. And so he tried all different kinds of things. We were running at about a 20 percent, 25 percent fail rate, like 100 blades. Twenty five would be bad.
01:25:27
Speaker
So we need to get that down. So. He got to thinking about He goes, that bar is too long. And so as it's cooling at different rates when they cast it.
01:25:38
Speaker
I see. yeah And he goes, there's going to get some ferocity and shit in there. He said, let's cut that bar in half. We'll make it six inches long and we'll make it three and three quarter inches wide. And we'll make it this thick, whatever is 170 or 60. Cool.
01:25:52
Speaker
We still have some of that pitting, but we're down to about 10%. But on probably hey 8% of the fail rate ones, we can do a but dark blast on it that covers up the pits and gets rid of I mean, it's just, it's, and so that's what we do.
01:26:13
Speaker
And so he's been making our blades and that for, since 18 or 19. And now we're up to, I don't know, 25 different models or 20 different models or whatever. Very cool. And 80% or them,
01:26:29
Speaker
because we have We have a couple out of out-of-fronts that we they we make now. We've got ah a ballet song that we do. Those three knives, and we have a slip joint that we make.
01:26:43
Speaker
Those knives have stainless steel, either springs, little tiny springs in them or whatever. So we can't call them 100% rustproof. But all the other knives are 100% rustproof and non-magnetic.
01:26:55
Speaker
You can throw them in ocean, pick up a year later, take a hose, rinse them off and go look just like the day you put them in. This stuff is crazy stuff and it holds a great edge. So what's like the what what's the properties of the like HRC kind of level for these things? So that's what really makes this weird. And some people, yeah don't know if they don't believe believe me what, I got no reason to lie.
01:27:15
Speaker
So dendritic cobalt, Rockwell's at about 45, 46, something like that. is something relatively soft. I mean, you can't put a fingernail in it, but you know what 45 is.
01:27:29
Speaker
But what happens and like you could take 440 C. In fact, the sharpest knife I got in my shop here is a David Bowie 440 C fixed blade that he makes.
01:27:43
Speaker
What happens when you cast any any metals or stuff that you can cast heat up the molten cast in the cast state, it's called in a dendritic state.
01:27:55
Speaker
And all that means is that all the carbide crystals that are developed in that metal when you cast it, they're all linked together. Okay, if you take that material like they do for um
01:28:11
Speaker
what's the steel that they roll out and everybody's using, I'll think of him anyway. If you roll that steel out, heat it up, roll it out, it separates those carbide crystals. And now they're supported separately in the cobalt matrix, which is soft. So when you go to use the knife, if you whack on it, the edge will bend over or the carbide or the.
01:28:29
Speaker
ah
01:28:33
Speaker
Yeah, right the co the know the cobalt, the cobalt wears and the crystals fall out and becomes dull. And our knives, we use it in the dent. And just in the cast states all those carbide crystals are linked together.
01:28:45
Speaker
So when we sharpen the knife that edge is a carbide edge carbides what 85 or 90 Rockwell. i It's hard. That's why it takes forever to wear down.
01:28:56
Speaker
That's why it lasts so long. It's neat shit and Talonite, you're talentite. No, or
01:29:06
Speaker
He's dead now, the guy that started doing that.
01:29:11
Speaker
What's the other? she's like you can't take one of their You can't take one of their knives and whack on it because they'll fold the edge over or whatever. Ours, you can do we don't recommend you do it because we just don't want you doing it.
01:29:23
Speaker
But it won't. um yeah The more I use this stuff and play with this stuff, um the more I really appreciate what it does. i mean There's some things that it can't do. The very first I
01:29:40
Speaker
this i don't know if this was the very first one I got. No, it's not. But the very first prototype that I got of this that was doable but after we got it all down to where we wanted it. Me growing up in the ABS, I took it to my other shop, put a two-by-four in my post vise and started whacking on it. It was shaving hair after two or three halfway cut through. Shit, man, this is cool.
01:30:04
Speaker
That knife there. So I know it's okay. So I stuck it in the vice. I got about 30 degrees. Let go. So it's not brittle. It just won't take too much lateral pressure. So if you take a little folding knife and I tell everybody, uh, the body, I said, you you know, don't that tip. If I stuck it,
01:30:27
Speaker
in a piece of wood and went like that, it'd probably snap. In fact, I've resharpened maybe four or five blades over the last seven years. That tip comes off. Or guy goes, hang up a sign. The guy showed me the sign. It was it was in one of the piers there off in L.A. He was putting up, this is where the party's going to be kind of poster. I took my knife and Stuck the poster up there. He said the tip came off. I go, yeah, no shit. If you read the language, if you read all the little cards that I put in each one of these knives when we sell them, it says this ain't for jabbing. This ain't for prying. It's not for whacking. It's for cutting, period. So anyway, that's my little spiel on our knives.
01:31:07
Speaker
Yeah. it's Get a chance. Check it. Yeah, it is. I don't know how many people out there are familiar with dendritic cobalt. And, yeah, it's interesting stuff. Related to that, I have one of my Patreon members who's been working on Cobalt Damascus.
01:31:22
Speaker
with Oh, wow. Which is intriguing because it's pure cobalt mixed, like layered with a bunch of other things. and And the cool part of this is when you heat it, he does like a heat finish on it. And of course, it's one of the very few ways you can get blue Damascus.
01:31:40
Speaker
Cobalt. Yeah. Um, so I'm going to attempt this pretty soon. I'm trying, it's really hard to find pure cobalt in sheets here. Like it's really, it's either really expensive or really hard to find. I've never heard about it in sheets. Jeez Christ.
01:31:55
Speaker
No kidding. Huh? I'm like, I'm so trying to source it from China for like one and half mil. And so, It'll weld to carbon or to carbon fire. I mean, the carbon steel, or to it will weld. yeah You have to have, you have to have nickel in between it or something.
01:32:11
Speaker
So he's done it a couple of different ways. He's done it with just carbon steel. he's layered it with nickel and then he's, I'm not going to give away all these secrets, but, um, the, the issue, the big issue is the heat treatment to get the color pushes it up around the 650, 700 range.
01:32:31
Speaker
But he's found a really cool technique. So he puts a core steel in there that will take that kind of temp and gets these colors. It's it's spectacular. I'm excited to do a video on it. and So, but I mean, see is he concerned about the heat because of the cobalt or because of the, he's wanting to get the color?
01:32:51
Speaker
um Well, he he uses he's using the cobalt and then the heat to get the blue color. The problem is first you're going to blow the temper on any any knife steel. Oh, correct. Yeah, 600. So...
01:33:06
Speaker
So why why is he putting the cobalt in there? For what reason? Just for the color. like So he he can, it was, I'm pretty sure it's pure cobalt alternating with pure nickel, then doing the heat on it so he gets blue. um So you've got little layers of blue.
01:33:25
Speaker
So what's it doing to the carbon steel? What's it looking like? promise see this is this is the problem if you use obviously any any regular carbon steel um so he's actually switched to high speed steel which can take a high heat and still maintain a really hard edge like a 65 hrc edge so now he's using that as a core the kind the cobalt damascus as a cladding in kind of like a
01:33:55
Speaker
sand my so to speak um and it's it looks spectacular it looks really really cool because you know you don't have to well that's cobalt like i don't know if it's done if it's not anyway you can take these cobalt so some of these knives not all all the time they'll come from the four from the people and there might be just a little bit of little bit of curl to it i mean not much but enough i can heat this up to almost white and bend it back and let it cool down. It doesn't change anything. done't right
01:34:30
Speaker
This stuff is neat shit, man. I'm telling you what, oh how you you don't heat treat it. The way you get it, the way you get it. And you don't have to heat treat it. You can heat it up to pound and straighten it, whatever. But that's kind of, that's, I'm curious about that, what he's making there. um Yeah. um I need to do a little more research on my own. And, you know,
01:34:54
Speaker
He's given me the the green light to do it in a video and show it because he's talked about it on our Patreon. and I think it looks amazing. So, yeah, it's it's pretty cool. I'd like to see what it looks like. I mean, the knife.
01:35:06
Speaker
So, the cladding is cobalt? For the sake of argument, let's just say it's cob alternate layers of cobalt and nickel. That's the cladding. Yeah.
01:35:19
Speaker
that's the cloudy yeah there's nos getting There's no carbon seal in there other than what the high speed seal is for the core. I mean, there could be, but for sake of argument, let's just say it's it's nickel. and But you could you could put, say, like, I think it's easier if it's if it's binding with nickel. So you'd have cobalt, nickel, carbon, nickel, cobalt, and just keep doing that that layering to get enough layers.
01:35:48
Speaker
and then taking that as cladding on either side and then putting a high-speed steel in as the core, which would take a high heat so that you could do the heat treatment. When I say heat, I mean you've heat treated it for hardness, but a heat temper i hate you heat temper to give it the color.
01:36:09
Speaker
Yeah, and so 600, 700 degrees. um So, huh. So what's what's what's picking the blue up is the cobalt, really not the carbon. Correct.
01:36:22
Speaker
Correct. And so then you have blue and whatever the carbon steel looks like, gray or silver or whatever the hell. Interesting. Yeah. It looks pretty cool. It's something I would really want to try.
01:36:35
Speaker
Yeah. ah But thin sheets of cobalt. Boy.
01:36:42
Speaker
Have you found any luck over in China? Um, I've got, I've got it to a one and a half mil thick, a 12 by 12 approximate 12 by 12 sheet, but it's like 340 bucks.
01:36:55
Speaker
That's not a lot. No coal and cobalt. So I told you earlier that 50 bucks to get one of those things made cobalt. Now it's like 105, 110 bucks.
01:37:10
Speaker
yeah So my blades and my knives have gone from when we first started doing it, $25 a blade. They're up to about $50 a blade. And we really haven't changed our prices.
01:37:23
Speaker
Wow. I'm surprised can get them down that low. Yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, we're going to have to start doing something.
Spotlight on David Lish & Closing Thoughts
01:37:32
Speaker
It's just the cost of the Cobalt. it It's gone.
01:37:35
Speaker
Right. Skyrocket. It's crazy. Yeah. um So before we wrap up the show, I like to do, we like to do a segment called Maker Spotlight, where we just spotlight makers that, uh,
01:37:51
Speaker
that we think are cool. I'll start out here. the The maker that I've been following this guy, and I actually don't even know his name. I only know his Instagram handle, but I've been following him for a while. It started because I love his Damascus, but now he's into folders, just really amazing stuff. And the IG handle is Nobly Custom Knives. Maybe you know this individual. Sounds familiar.
01:38:15
Speaker
Yeah, just incredible Damascus. Yeah. But the folders he's doing now are just spectacular. A lot of really nice, intricate work. like I really appreciate um I don't know if he's got a pantograph, and he's pantographing the pieces that go into the handles. Just really, really cool stuff. So yeah, if you're not following um Nobly Custom Knives, definitely go take a look. um On his Instagram, he just put up a Turkish Twist fixed blade, which is spectacular. But it's got some really, really beautiful knives. He's doing a lot with, it looks like a laser doing colored,
01:39:03
Speaker
different color patterns using a laser. He did one that's like this little like a puzzle pattern on on scales. for i miss Yeah, they must yeah must just be scales for a liner lock.
01:39:19
Speaker
Really, really cool stuff. Where's the album? That's a great question.
01:39:28
Speaker
and I'm not sure. I'd have to go to his... yeah um But he's here in the States? did I think so. ah um Let's see if there's an about.
01:39:42
Speaker
who Yeah, I don't see it. Oh, no, he's in New Jersey. New Jersey, huh? Oh, wow. Cool. Just really, really cool maker.
01:39:54
Speaker
Someone I appreciate quite a bit. um Who do you have? i have David Lish. I've known David, oh, I don't know, 15 plus years.
01:40:05
Speaker
I've always been impressed
01:40:11
Speaker
with the way he goes about things. he He got his start, and i don't know how I can't remember, he told me the story, i can't remember how long. He started off as a blacksmith.
01:40:22
Speaker
um He is so handy. it's I just love watching him. Anyway, then he got into Knives, and that's I can't remember the year. i was up at Tom Ferry's, and met him, um, went down, he had a, his blacksmithing shop, uh, was down in the industrial area of Seattle, I guess, or wherever it hell they were down there. Nice shop.
01:40:47
Speaker
Um, he was just getting into knives and they were just, you know, simple knives doing makes great Damascus. that I love his steel, but anyway, so I just kind of, kind of want just, I,
01:41:04
Speaker
And how he how he think. Actually, i was going to say how he thinks about things. But if I can get into his brain to know how he thinks about things, I'd be doing some cool shit because I'm telling you this. I told him one time, I said, you're from a different planet, but where it is. yeah I said, i did I just I just love his stuff. I love his not you just there's something organic about him.
01:41:33
Speaker
That I don't, I don't believe you can teach. I think it just has to be in you. um I mean, some of his coolest stuff is not even his knives.
01:41:45
Speaker
His frogs, he's made all kinds of shit that he's pounded out and put together. I mean, it's just flabbergasted me. Yeah. Very artistic stuff. He was just doing little, you know, our artsy things, our little artsy projects, which I really like You know, I'm going to do something new with this knife here and then I'm going to do this. And pretty soon the show, God damn, where's the shit? Where's that coming from? You know, it's like, so I've always appreciated David. And then he had, I don't know how many years I did it. I did at least three years.
01:42:21
Speaker
Then I went up to his shop and did a folder class. I think I did every, each class was a different folder that I made. So that was a lot of fun. But he and Andrea are good people.
01:42:34
Speaker
And I just, she makes nice knives too. She's not, she doesn't put out near the amount of knives that David does, but. They're just as good. I mean, they're nice. They're beautiful.
01:42:45
Speaker
Yeah. I had a chance to spend three days with Dave last spring. Uh-huh. No. Geez, was it? Yeah, last spring. 2025. Because I wanted to learn how to do frame handles.
01:43:01
Speaker
Uh-huh. Frame handle buoy. And now it's been a year over a year, year and a half now. I'm finally getting back to making... The first one on my own, which is sitting on my table right now, and I'm going back to all these things that Dave taught in that class. So I was just thinking about him the other day when you told me you were going to use Dave as your spotlight. I was like, oh, it's all coming back.
01:43:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, great guy. had i had a such good He was the one that showed me how to dome pins, and I told Dave um my excuse for that class is making a frame handle, but I just want to spend three days with you just to learn anything you want to teach me.
01:43:38
Speaker
Yeah. yeahp Yeah. yep Yeah. That was great. right, Mike, it was a pleasure having you on. I think we should have done this a long time ago. Yeah. Thank you, Dennis. I i enjoyed it myself. I really did.
01:43:50
Speaker
Good. Good. Um, I I'll put in the show notes where people can reach you, but, um, tell the folks where, where can they find you? Where can they find train 365? Terrain is train three sixty five dot com they'll bring up the site ah I've got one.
01:44:11
Speaker
It's mvknives.com, but it's an old site that needs a lot of work. It's my fault that it hasn't gotten there. And then you can always call me and you can put out my phone number.
01:44:23
Speaker
I'm fine. yeah If you just want to talk knives or whatever, I love talking knives. so Awesome. It's great having you. I'm looking forward to our our class next month. may even bring I'm going to bring you this frame handle buoy to give it the once over and see if yeah if it's going to maybe be one of my master knives. We'll see. Yeah, yeah, sure. Cool. And then we'll get into scale releases.
01:44:48
Speaker
Yes. yeah soon Probably after my knives are done. not gonna I got too much of my plate as it is. You're planning to go next June? is Next June. Well, I'll see what everyone says at Bladeshow Texas. if all right If I get too many thumbs down at Bladeshow Texas, it probably won't be June, but we'll see.
01:45:11
Speaker
yeah we'll see Yeah, I think you'll be fine. All right. Thanks for having you, Dave. Hey. Mike, but I'll go by Dave to Dave. Sorry. nice I got Dave in my head now after talking to Dave Lish. All right. Hang on for a bit.
01:45:27
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, thanks for listening.
01:45:43
Speaker
and thanks for listening