Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that makes every stage of the podcast production and distribution processes so easy.
Speaker: There is a link in the description. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I'm your host, Michael Millward. In this episode of The Independent Minds, Darren Tompkins, the founder and CEO of Veda Ray Companies, and I are going to be discussing the balance and conflicts between process and creativity.
Speaker: Darren is based in Houston, Texas in the United States of America. I have never been, but if I ever get the chance to visit, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: because that is where I get trade prices on trains, flights, hotels, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases. You can do the same by using the link in the description, which has a built in discount to become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club and just like me, travel at trade prices.
Speaker: Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. Very importantly, on the independent minds, we do not tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
Speaker: Hello, Darren. Hello, Michael. How are things over in the UK? Well, they are very well. Thank you very much. You're talking in the end of April, 2026, and our king is over there in America with you. I hope you're all looking after him. Oh, yeah. We had a pint last night, but everything's good.
Speaker: We didn't plan that, but you played it so well, Darren, so well. We were doing a bit of creativity in amongst the process, weren't we there? or it didn't warn you about that one, but you did it very well. Thank you very much. Oh, you're very welcome. ah Variety is the spice of life, and creativity is too. This is true.
Speaker: Could we start by giving us a little bit of a potted history of your career and then what sparked your interest in creativity? Sure thing. So um came from a very humble family beginnings where my dad was a chemist. My mom was a social worker in a very small town in rural Appalachia in Virginia.
Speaker: used the U.S. military, specifically the army, to get out of that area and start my career. because I always wanted to kind of like explore the world and see what else was out there. Used what we call the GI Bill and the ROTC scholarship to get my schooling paid for.
Speaker: Started working in oil and gas in 2005. I was there about 12 years. During my time, you know, I got hit up by a lot of really bad recruiters all the time. I still get up by recruiters every single week for, you know jobs and ideas that are just not even remotely aligned with the things that I've done in the past or what I want to do.
Speaker: And I always had in the back of my mind, like there's got to be a better way, like ah ah a better company, a better you know process or something like that out there. you know, in COVID, I was home, got invited to partake as like a second in command of a very small boutique recruiting company here in Houston. That kind of started piquing my interest of because I've always been a very, you know, salesy kind of guy in that I like to chase the opportunities and you have to do that as as a good recruiter.
Speaker: basically what we be called made my bones there where I learned the process, learned how the business works, moved on very briefly to a a large international firm. But I knew in my mind i was going to start my own thing because I had already gotten the juices flowing of this is how we could probably do it to a save the client's money. b cut the time down into how this is done and CB very creative and but process driven in in that so Vader a companies was born and yes that is a very much a Star Wars reference my daughter's names are Josie Vader Tompkins and Izzy Ray Tompkins and and it's a name that really sticks with people when they see it that's part of the creative branding of the company
Speaker: We do quite a bit of executive recruiting in the construction and oil and gas space, engineering, financial advisory, you name it. Here we are. and This is how you and I met, which has been absolutely pleasurable.
Speaker: Yes, I agree with you. I've enjoyed all of our conversations. When you were in the military, what sort of things were you doing there? Yeah, so I was in the military police. it It was not a job I intended to do when I got out of the active duty. I had a couple of great uncles that were the Korean War. Both of them were MPs. They looked like absolute studs in their portrait photos and all that. So I figured it was a job that I could get into where...
Speaker: I could do a lot quickly and go to a lot of places quickly. And I was, and I was right. And it was also a job where I got to do a lot of humanitarian ah missions, which really I loved. And of course coming from a mom who was a social worker was always, you know, deep in my heart.
Speaker: Within the military, it's people from the military like yourself might disagree with me, but it's structured. There is a structure to the way in which the military operates. It has to, it's a huge organization and it's essential, I suppose, that everyone is doing whatever job they're doing in the same way as everyone else is doing it. So it's got a lot of structure and that provides the discipline within the organization, the the structure.
Speaker: You then move into the oil and gas industry and if they didn't have the structure and the rules and the regulations, things would be blowing up all over the place. So the health and safety requirement means they have to have a lot of structure as well.
Speaker: And then you go from that type of environment into an environment which is very laissez-faire. After building a career and in very structured organizations, you then move into very creative areas. What was that switch like?
Speaker: Yeah. So, you know, um my my life has a lot of balance in the creativity space. So while I'm doing all these very structured things and leading teams, I do a lot of creative stuff on the side. You know, i umm I'm known here or have been known in the past as a a movie writer and producer. i have a I'm short film. It's on Amazon prime right now. It's been there for several years. I've written two children's books and you know, I i play the standup bass and I've used these things to balance out the the, the very process heavy things that you were just talking about to create a good balance in my life. because I do like wild and crazy things. And and even being a dad now, it's it's um something that I try to impart on my children too.
Speaker: Because you're teaching them structure, right, as a dad, but you also want them to have the creativity of, you know, yeah, go to school with purple hair, whatever you need to do to get through and and be be happy with life. I use this as a balance because recruiting is very process driven, right? You have to do these things from A to Z to ensure that somebody gets placed and you get paid. But at the same time, there's also lots of cool consulting things you could do as well as build a brand that uses a lot of creativity. and And that's where we're at right now.
Speaker: I agree with you. And I think that when we talk about recruitment and creativity, There are an awful lot of recruiters and employers who will say, we have a vacancy need to fill.
Speaker: We need to fill it with exactly the same person you who left. And they're looking for someone who probably doesn't exist. And what you really need to be looking at is where is the organization at the moment?
Speaker: Where is it going to go to and what skills, knowledge and expertise does it need, what personality type does it need in order to make that journey. And sometimes that means that you've got to consider a candidate who isn't the normal type of candidate that you would generally expect would go into that group.
Speaker: So it's like you've got to stop thinking about the wasp you know the white Anglo-Saxon, Protestant male and start thinking about people from other backgrounds with other experiences.
Speaker: and you've had that experience in the military who will take people that apply, put them through tests, make sure that they've got the capability to do the job and then put a lot of effort into developing them to reach their full potential.
Speaker: yeah so How do you find it with employers who are faced with the labor shortages and getting them to be creative in how they recruit people? So before COVID, we had what was called an employer's market.
Speaker: Meaning, okay, Michael, you're interviewing at our our company, we're gonna hire you for this exact amount of money, there's no negotiating, here's your cubicle, here's your ID card, here's your basic benefits, and don't make waves. Because we're gonna fire you and then you'll be stuck, you know having a lonely, terrible life, right?
Speaker: When COVID happened, it switched. It became an employees, a candidates market where, you know what? We've been at home for a while. I don't want to go back to an office. You know, um I want to work from home three days a week. I want, you know, the negotiating power of getting a salary and benefits incentivizing your own job to make it entrepreneurial became a big thing.
Speaker: and i'll And then there's a lot of other things that happen. So we have we have a client right now that we're recruiting for. They need a ah a warehouse manager. This is a privately owned company, family owned.
Speaker: hundreds of millions of dollars in business. um The owner is there every single day. And guess what? He brings his two giant ass dogs with him to work every day. One's a Cane Corso and the other is a Big Dobrin. And big douglas you have to think nowadays of of culture. is it if Not only is is this employee went back when it was an employer's market,
Speaker: Are they going to fit culturally here? But as an employee, am I going to fit culturally at this company? So here's the right in your face conundrum. If I'm a person that hates dogs, I'm scared of them, whatever, or maybe I'm allergic.
Speaker: um ah Do you think the owner is going to change his culture for you or us as recruiters? Do we need to give, let them know immediately, hey, if you don't like dogs, this this job isn't for you.
Speaker: um We have to think about these almost mind-blowing cultural questions nowadays when we're looking at the candidate in the labor pool and if you are going to be a good fit.
Speaker: Yes. And that comes from a lot of things. And what we do is we we interview the the client, the company, just as much as we do the candidate nowadays to make sure it will be a good match. Otherwise, we'll be in limbo forever.
Speaker: What you're talking about there is like the process, the matching process is much more about – the people working together rather than just matching a job to the person with the right skills, the right knowledge or the right experience, it's making much more of a cultural fit, much more of a personality fit as well, and matching jobs and people and lifestyles and working life as well.
Speaker: Yeah. It's, it's, um, you know people leave their jobs for two reasons. Generally 98% of the time they leave it for better money or better culture. Right. Again, that has to be a balance at at your company. And then what we also typically do. So let's say you have a position, Michael, where somebody quit and we're replacing that person. It's like, okay, well, why did they leave? And if, unless there's an exit interview, sometimes that gets a little muddy, right? You could be like, well, we just didn't get along. Okay. Well, why not? what what didn't work and what person do we need to look for that you would work with.
Speaker: It's very similar to when we supply virtual assistants to highly successful people that need to get their time back. It's what is going to work with you. So we're not dealing with you know, total apathy of the job or the, or the, the, the client, um, or the, or the candidate, you know, what's it going to work to make sure that you're working at your best, what that they're working at their best. And this job process function is working in its best speed possible.
Speaker: So you're p applying the principles of creativity. into the recruitment process in order to enable an organization to make a better hiring decision and end up with an employee who is more likely to be successful in that organization and in that job role.
Speaker: Yes. So as a third party recruiter, you know, we put a guarantee with everybody we we we place. um Depending on the the, you know, the level of the job, it could be 90 days, it could be six months, it could be a year, you know, for senior executives.
Speaker: Because we anticipate everybody that we're sending you that you will hire will be there for a long time. You know, now there's that, we're talking about that 2%. Remember, it's 98% cultural or the pay thing.
Speaker: There's always that 2% you just, you can't plan for. We've been to the to the goal line so many times with people, then all of a sudden, candidate has ah a hidden you know felony charge that we didn't pick up in the background check, or they're addicted to something, or they're going through a divorce. Stuff that, you know,
Speaker: legally we, some of the stuff we can't ask, but it it comes out in the end. Right. And when that happens and that guy gets there on that first day and he's like, man, he showed up drunk cause he's getting divorced from his wife. Why don't, you know, they want to blame the recruiting company immediately. Uh, why didn't you pick up on this? Well, they've been, you've been interviewing them through three and four rounds of interviews. Why didn't you pick it up? You know, but you can't look at it like that because again, you know, we're, uh, they're the clients of ours. So we have to massage everything, but,
Speaker: I could write a book on the craziness that happens when you're dealing with people all day long. It's one of those things that as an internal human resources professional and you are working with an external recruiter and you think you've found the ideal candidate and you've been looking for this person for what feels like forever, you finally get them to accept the the job offer and found the right person.
Speaker: They say yes to the job. They start and within a week they sort of come into your office and say, you know, I'm getting married. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, but you know my wife is, my future wife has been in the UK for so long and she's Australian. So we've decided to start a married life in Australia.
Speaker: happened to me. It happened. And he's going, oh, right. So you've been there for this long and then you're going to be going to Australia. you're week in Australia.
Speaker: conversations had with the recruiters there was like, well, they didn't tell us, they didn't tell you. How how is anyone going to know? don think that there's always always something probably that.
Speaker: It is. And, you know, it's the candidate to make up his mind if they want it or not. We, you know, people will try to get their foot in the door no matter what it is. Right. i mean, it happens all the time. You know, we'll put an executive role out there and people who are like working for delivery services will apply just hoping to talk to somebody. And what what what is happening, like last year, we had a lot of, not a lot, you know, it happens where we'll we'll post a job. Okay, no sponsorship is available. You know, we the the client just doesn't want to pay for that. We will get people that will lie to us up to the very end until we, again, we get to that background and work authorization where they will lie about it just because they want to make a good impression.
Speaker: That is a complete waste of time. For you, for v for the the the recruiting company and you know who was and the the company who you might have ended working for later in life because you know companies will blacklist you if they think something's wrong and if if you lie to them in the interview.
Speaker: I get that there's people out there that need work, but... you've got to get something that's applicable and just don't lie. So, you know, ageism is a big thing right now. you know, we, here in the U S we have so many retirees that are trying to get back in the workforce because they can't afford to live anymore.
Speaker: Retirees and and older folks will try to hide their age as much as they can online. If we're talking about LinkedIn here, right, where they won't use their photos, their resume only goes back so far. They'll list their college degree, but they won't say the the graduation date.
Speaker: Don't hide that. You know why? Because eventually, somewhere in the process, you're going to have to come face-to-face with your future employer. it's just It's just a killer if they if they think yeah that you've been messing around because you've got a 20-year gap in your resume and all of a sudden they're looking at a 60-year-old with you know a 20-year work history. its just Just own it who you are and let it come out. Rock that shit and you know hopefully get the job, but don't lie about it.
Speaker: The worst thing that any candidate can do is tell you something that is untrue. I had to one young chap years ago, one young chap, he sticks in my memory, looking at his resume,
Speaker: what we call a CV here in the UK, we call resume. And in his hobby's interest, he's put water skiing. And I thought, like oh, water skiing. I've never done water skiing, but he lives locally. He must be doing it somewhere. So during the interview, I asked him where he did the water skiing.
Speaker: And he said, well, I don't. I said, oh, it's here on your CV. And he said, yeah, because I was in Greece on holiday once and and we tried it and I liked And so I thought I'd put it down as a hobby.
Speaker: but it's not a hobby because you don't do it. He said, no. So then I said, well, what else on the CV isn't true? His poor little face went bright red. And it's like, you're in that, once you've told one little white lie, which you think makes you interesting, you end up with everything being questioned. And you can't start that type of relationship an employment relationship on that basis at all.
Speaker: What we're talking about in creativity in recruitment and you can be creative from a positive way, but also the creativity can go too far and has a negative impact on your job hunting as well as your selection processes.
Speaker: It's a process that needs to be honest from both sides. So with the creativity in the CVs, this is this is a hot topic right now worldwide, which is using AI to create your resume. Can you tell when someone's done that?
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. I know within two seconds, just looking at their intro paragraph, whether it's been made with AI or not. Now we can run it through an AI and it'll tell us the probability that it was made, but there's certain buzzwords that everybody use every AI uses. If I see somebody that says, I am a dynamic whatever it is, dynamic is the biggest AI buzzword on the planet right now.
Speaker: And it's overused. I've been posting about the word dynamic for two years now. Yeah. Because I used to use it on my resume years ago. But that's that's ah that's a flag. And then we'll go down the resume and it's just, there's a way of reading it that I don't even have to pass through our recruiting AI where I'm like, this is ai created. And people that use AI avatars on their on their pictures, you know?
Speaker: And this is what, especially if I'm a third party recruiter, the client is everything to me. I know everything about the business. If you as the candidate aren't investing time in yourself to rewrite these things and make them factual, make them interesting. And you as a person don't come through, we'll pass on it every single time. If it thinks there's something wrong with it, just like the water skiing guy. yeah If this is an AI created head and there's a lot of them out there, then this person just doesn't show a lot of value in themselves. So why would we show interest?
Speaker: Precisely. Precisely. I said think that is the thing. It's like no one knows you as a candidate better than you know you. And so you shouldn't need to make things up. And the other thing is that you can think, I would be great for that job, but you have to convince someone else that you're great for that job. And actually creating a unique application for each job that you apply for will help you do the thing that is most important when you're looking for a job, and that's qualifying yourself out of the job.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, especially when it comes to like cover letters, you know you'll do a generic one and you'll send it to everybody and it just it just doesn't work anymore. you know We use AI all day every day to vet candidates out because going back to the kind of like the cultural thing where you said you got to meet somebody, if if you as the employer are looking for somebody to hire,
Speaker: Don't do the cultural stuff first. Do the hard line bullet points of this is what I need them to do to get the job done, right? Get to know them later on, you know, later down the line. Because ah if he's just meeting them up because they sound interesting at all, I like water skiing too. And that's what you're basing the interview on. And then all of a sudden, like you said, everything falls apart from there. You just wasted your entire day.
Speaker: um dealing with this person so make sure that they can do the job first and then look towards the cultural interviews that'll happen later yeah i agree with you it's like work on the cv as a candidate work on the cv to make sure that it matches with the requirements of the job and that you've been honest in your summation of your career and what you can do and then as a recruiter go for can this person do the job first And then make sure that the person is actually going to be able to do that job in your culture, in your environment, and that they will they will be happy in your environment.
Speaker: If you BS your recruiter, if we think there's something wrong, and it I mean, we're going to pass on you fast, right? Because there's a lot of other people out there looking for work. I don't understand why people want to waste other folks' time nowadays. You know, when everything is moving so quickly, you know we could get 100 resumes in. We'll vet them within minutes and break them down on the top 5% or 10%. And then that's where we kind of do a hard-nosed digging to make sure that who is on paper is who they say they are and how how well they match. But again, it all comes out in the end if you're if there's something on there that's not true.
Speaker: Yes. I think that as ah as someone who's involved in recruitment, recruitting as an internal HR person and acc recruiting my own team, is that I expect people to tell me the rose-tinted view of their career, all the things that they have achieved.
Speaker: I don't expect them to send me a document which is going to list all of the things that are the problems that they've created somewhere that's my job to try and discover those through the questioning techniques that i use they give me information so i'm fully expecting people to be honest and creative in the way in which they emphasize the successes that they have contributed to within an organization in their career i won't have won't tolerate someone who's creative to the point of fantasy whereas that's wasting my time wasting their time
Speaker: But I do expect them to tell me things about them themselves, which will help me to place them into an environment where they're going to be successful. And think that when you say it's a candidate's market now since COVID and people changing the way in which they work, so they're being creative in the way in which they work, the way in which they want to work, the type of work that they want to do, because they're matching it much more to their lifestyle or the lifestyle they want to attain than simply just earning money.
Speaker: Employers need to be more creative in the way in which they're prepared to facilitate work and make it possible for people to both have a career and the lifestyle that they want as well.
Speaker: And that is pretty challenge. You know, I saw a meme recently. I laughed so hard at it. And it was it was basically said, if you're out there job searching, no one can disprove that you weren't a regional director for Circuit City, Blockbuster, you know, ah companies that just weren't around anymore. And when they did collapse, it was before the internet. You know, it's just, yeah, it's just's just funny funny little tidbits like that that people try to sneak through. yes it comes back to the why would you want to do it in the end.
Speaker: What advice do you have for employers who are facing a challenge in finding the right people about how they can find the right people by being more creative in in their recruitment processes?
Speaker: Well, Michael, you you nailed it on the head earlier. you know um There's a lot of hidden talents out there but beyond what you see on a resume and what you will typically do about an interviewing for a job. you know Can you do these 10 things I need you to do? Yes. Well, what else can they do? you know There's a lot of things that maybe they've done just as a hobby where, wow, this could really work. you know Maybe they're great at some marketing aspect or um somebody knows a CRM that you've you didn't think about, you know, or maybe they're great at graphic design. Maybe they have their own podcast on the side where it's like this huge audience that you could pull into, know, your your company. You just kind of
Speaker: look past what's on the black and white. You know you have to get past what's on on the black and white on the CV. But once you get to know them and you're more comfortable, really try to understand what their motivators are. People take accounting jobs, but you know what Not everybody wants to be an account, which is a very process-driven thing. Maybe they do have other things that they could do to help build you up.
Speaker: Because if you're not growing, you're shrinking in this market. Very much so. It's things like what sort of hobbies do you have outside of work? And I always think that, well, experience has taught me that people who get involved in sports clubs, either for adults or the children, tend to be good team players.
Speaker: And the person who's prepared to take on the management of the little league, soccer club, football club, baseball club, whatever club for the sport, tend to be good managers because they're good at motivating a group of children.
Speaker: But they're also very good at managing the parents on the touchline watching the game and getting those people who can become even more competitive than their children to be supportive of the whole sort of process.
Speaker: Oh, people get thrown out of peewee games all the time here because they're more competitive than the children. Now, I do want to say something that I don't believe putting water skiing on your resume is going to help you anywhere. No, nowhere at all. if it's not If it's not something that you do,
Speaker: You should not put something on your CV just because it makes you look glamorous or exciting or interesting. It is just not going to get you anywhere. because you will if If you put something on your resume to make you look interesting, someone is going to be interested in it and ask you a question about it.
Speaker: if you haven't If it's not true, then take it off. Creativity has to be based have a basis in fact and truth and build it up from there and um grow it.
Speaker: But it's a really interesting sort of situation that we're in when you say, yes, it's a candidate's market. But it seems to be a candidate's market once you've been offered the job and then you can start negotiating the terms of the contract that you're going to have and how you're going to work.
Speaker: You still need to get to that point. And getting to that point with the internet and say point-click apply, you can have a lot of people applying for a job.
Speaker: and standing out in the crowd to get to the interview to get the job offer is as challenging nowadays as I think it ever was. But you need to be yeah creative in the way in which you present yourself and employers need to be more creative in the way in which they recruit people as well.
Speaker: Yep, it is definitely a challenging market out there. I will not disagree with you on that. This is very true. You know, it's been very interesting having this conversation, Darren. I do appreciate your time and look forward to having more conversations with you in the future.
Speaker: Yes, sir. This has been great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Apposita, and I have been having conversation with the independent mind, Darren Tompkins, the founder and CEO of Veda Ray Companies. You can find more information about both of us by using the links in the description.
Speaker: I'm sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of the Independent Minds as much as Darren and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
Speaker: To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
Speaker: Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
