Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that makes every stage of the podcast production process, including editing and distribution to all the platforms, so easy.
Speaker: All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works.
Speaker: with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone. I am your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Apocedent. Today, Jean Omelot, a specialist in maximizing profits and impact, and I are going to be discussing the future of selling.
Speaker: Jean is based in Florida in the United States of America. It is one of the states that I have visited and I would return. And when I do, I would make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because that is where I get trade prices on trains, flights, hotels, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
Speaker: You can do the same by using the link in the description, which has a built-in discount on membership fees. Now that I have paid the rent, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to.
Speaker: probably also good enough to share with your friends, family and work colleagues as well. Very importantly, on the independent minds, we do not tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
Speaker: Hello, Jean. Hi there, Michael, how are you? I am extremely well, thank you very much, and I hope you can say the same. Oh, amazing here. Brilliant. Can we start, please, by just giving us an overview of how you built your expertise in maximising profits and impact?
Speaker: Sure. So I did this on the seat of my pants, to be honest, as we say. i was not a business person at all. I mean, my career was fashion designer, acting, filmmaking.
Speaker: Very creative type. Very creative background. But then I became more of a businessy person around like, 1998, I started being an executive recruiter on Wall Street. So that was the first foray into something businesslike. And that is selling, as you know. yeah Recruiting high-end people, you are selling them a job, even though they're not paying, still selling. um So that was my first experience selling. And then I've been a coach for 14 years now, so I really did have to learn to build a business then. And I was terrible at sales.
Speaker: I was just like, oh my gosh, I got to market, I got a sell. I hated the word marketing. It made me nauseous. And I thought, well, okay. My first coach said, you really need to learn this if you want to be a success, because you just need to learn the business of marketing and selling.
Speaker: I don't care how bad you feel. If you don't do it, you're not going to be a success. Will you do it? And I said, gulp? Yes. So I made it my business that I just had to get over all the icky feelings that we all have when we are not natural salespeople. You know what I'm talking about? Believe me, I do. Yeah, you do, right? So we all do. yeah And I just thought, well, you know what? I got to make this happen because I'm a single mom with Two kids, I've got to make this happen. I've just got to get past all those emotions. And what I realized bit by bit is that what's keeping most people, all people, from success is merely their emotions.
Speaker: Because if we were not over-emotional, we would just do stuff. We wouldn't overthink stuff and say, oh this going to be hard and how am I going to feel? We would just do stuff, kind of like a bot. And we were treated ourselves like like a bit like a bot that I'm just going to do this systematically like a bot. I'll be successful. So I started realizing I just got to do stuff no matter what, no matter how I feel. You know, a lot of therapists talk about that too. Just do it no matter how you feel. Do it sad. Do it angry. Do it anyway.
Speaker: That's what I realized. So I started just learning how to sell and doing things my way. And what I realized, Michael... with all the people trying to teach me how to sell, if there was no way on this earth, I was going to use their methods because the methods are designed to manipulate people.
Speaker: And I thought, wait a minute, why can't, if we're so good and our service or product is so good, why would we have to manipulate people to get them to see it's good and buy it? It's an interesting question.
Speaker: Right. And I thought, hmm, well, I am so good. so why don't I just tell people honestly what it is. they I highlight the value. and They can make their own choice. Believe it or not, this worked.
Speaker: Believe it or not, people really appreciate it when you don't treat them with condescension and you don't treat them in a way where they are feeling like you're playing them.
Speaker: Because I'll ask you a question, Michael, in your life of being on on sales calls for any number of things, if you had that feeling that they were just merely there to sort of try to play you and manipulate you to get you into the funnel to say yes,
Speaker: The answer to that question is yes. And i i mean <unk>re you're disposable. Once you've said yes, it's then I'm not interested in you anymore.
Speaker: Exactly. And they're almost mad at you, aren't they? Like, wow, thought we were friends. So, and I feel, especially since COVID, I've seen a difference where people are even more tired of this because they're just tired of it. They got tired of a lot of things in COVID.
Speaker: And it gave people time to think about what they want their lives to be and all sorts of stuff. And COVID, I believe, for better or for worse, was a very large developmental tool for the human race because it gave people time to think.
Speaker: And I thought, you know what? I believe that we have been sold to for thousands of years in a very unethical way because treating people like that is just not ethical and sometimes immoral if they're lying to people.
Speaker: I thought, what would that be like if we could teach people how to sell and not have to do that because your stuff is so good? So then you are focusing on your stuff being so good. So it's an easy sell. So what if we just provided great service and we showed people that we're getting results and that this product actually works? Then the heavy lifting is done with the actual value you are providing and not selling the value and having to oversell it. So I believe in the future...
Speaker: People are going to get smarter and smarter because AI is going to help them. you know Actually, this woman said to me the other day, she said, you know, my daughter or pretty much runs iHeartRadio.
Speaker: And I asked her about you and said, can you please do some research? And she used all her AI and all sorts of stuff. She came back and she said to the mother, well, the woman's definitely legit because i did all sorts of searches on her with AI.
Speaker: And she is definitely legit. So get on a call with her. So do you see what's happening? We can't hide a bad reputation now with AI. We just can't. It's gotten so hard to have a bad reputation and get away with it.
Speaker: Good for me, bad for a lot of people that don't have good reputations who've been trying to hide it. So it's more transparent. And I believe the future of sales is we need to be better at what we do. We need to have better offers, better service, better products that are doing the hard work and the heavy lifting so that we are merely getting on calls to say, hey, here it is. Look how great it is. These are the results. Do you want to do it or not?
Speaker: And they go, yes, of course I do because so amazing. And they've made a decision themselves. Of course, that's not how long my sales calls are. But I literally just got off a sales call and said to the woman, I'm not here to persuade you or convince you of anything.
Speaker: I'm merely here to show you the facts of how good we are, the results, and I want you to make an informed decision. And she ah her her face dropped. She said, I really appreciate that. I said, well, you're you're a very intelligent human being. Look at our results.
Speaker: You've met with me. Ask yourself if this is a good fit and if I'm lying to you and if it's going to work and if it is, I would invest if I were you. And she said, thank you. So do you see that it's very different from trying to manipulate their feelings and all sorts of stuff. This is true. It's very different, but because there is so much data involved, are we running the risk of making selling more about the data than it is about the relationship and the fact that we want to like the salesperson because the salesperson is the representative of the product or service that we're buying.
Speaker: And we're more comfortable, at least I've always been told, we're more comfortable buying the relationship and buying into the relationship than we are simply buying a product.
Speaker: Right. But I think that people, it's still a manipulation if it's, oh, I've got to get this person to like me. Because then there's a whole manipulation and a system, a sales system. Whenever anybody says,
Speaker: I have a sales system. I cringe. Why does it have to be a system? Why can't it be simple that they can make up their minds, whether they trust you or not in their gut. Now I don't make a system out of that at all. I just turn up.
Speaker: They've seen my results. They see my clients saying how good we are, what their experience was, the results. They meet me. They feel me. There's no system. It's just, here are the results. Take a look, meet me.
Speaker: What do you think? Do you think we're trustworthy? And people always say, yes, I do. And also I did a deep dive on you, John, and they've done their their research. stuff So it doesn't even have to a system of getting them in a funnel to get them to be trustworthy because that, you know, the trust, no like, and trust. You don't need to know somebody that well to know whether they're trustworthy or not because we feel it in our guts.
Speaker: Okay. There's very much more gut reaction then because the data is all of the figures, all of the information that demonstrates that the product or service is capable of doing what the customer needs.
Speaker: Yes. But then we talk about a gut type of feeling, a gut reaction. How do the two of those marry up? Well, I think people, I think what it is, is we're treating people like they're actually intelligent. All the people that get on a call with me, these are very intelligent people. I'm not selling to naive people. We're selling to people that have a certain sophistication. In the marketplace, there's different levels of sophistication. The people I'm dealing with are are level five. There's five levels.
Speaker: So we are not condescending. we're not These are level five. So this, we're cutting through a lot of the noise at level five. okay What are the five levels then? Let's see go through. Oh, goodness. it's um It's like basically the levels of naivete.
Speaker: or or or sophistication, we call it. Level one is they just really don't know anything about marketing. And they've just started doing what they're doing. and They have very little knowledge about marketing at all. Level two is they got a bit of an idea. Maybe they work with a PR person, still don't really know that much, but they're more sophisticated. Level three, and it just goes through the ranks, and five is the highest level.
Speaker: These people, they're smart people. you're not going to hoodwink them. They've been around, super intelligent, and they just really want to hear, what do you got for me? Will it work? And do I trust you?
Speaker: And is it worth the investment? So it depends. You have to figure out what level of sophistication you are working with for your marketing. Some of the levels, you need to explain stuff more.
Speaker: So it's not condescending, but it's like, okay, these people have to have more things explained more because they aren't at the level of sophistication regarding marketing, not regarding what they're doing in their lives. Does that make sense? So it's the level of and building a level of understanding in your product or service is what you're talking about there. They know nothing about it at all.
Speaker: You have to explain more about the product and service. And if they know what they're buying, why they're buying it, then you have to do less of that. You just have to link what they see as value and what you can deliver.
Speaker: Right. Or in a different way. It's pretty complex. I mean, they talk about this a lot with ads and funnels, which I do not do. Then it's very complex about the levels of sophistication for Facebook ads, for instance.
Speaker: I don't run ads, but depending what your way of selling, mine's going to be but much simpler. Mine is just, I'm evaluating and I usually have them fill a questionnaire out and I can tell from the questionnaire kind of where they are energetically and intuitively. So when they get on the call, I'm i'm knowing this by the kinds of questions they're asking.
Speaker: And then I say, okay, I'm going have to explain it a bit more to this person. Or they say, John, I'm very aware of the system. Just tell me what you're going to do. I'm like, great. They already know. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes a lot of sense, yes. Yeah. it really is meeting people where they are, which is what we need to do in our lives. In our lives, in our relationships, we need to meet people where they are.
Speaker: This goes for marketing. This goes for selling. This goes for your romantic relationships. This goes for when you go to a dinner party and you're speaking about yourself at a dinner party. You're meeting the people where they are and understanding your journey when they say, hey, tell us about yourselves.
Speaker: Does that make sense? Yeah. So this is about being emotionally intelligent and nimble with your communication skills, no matter what box you're in. And I'll talk about boxes now. I believe life is just a bunch of boxes of communication.
Speaker: And I'll give you a really interesting one. One of them is the the red telephone box in London. That's a box of communication. And that's very clear it's a box because we're walking in and we're making a phone call and we are in a box. Does that make sense? In London now, we have so few of those red...
Speaker: red phone boxes that the one in parliament square people queue up to have their photograph taken going into the red box yes well when i was in london they were everywhere okay but now i'm just using this as a analogy but that's a really good analogy that's an actual box but then when i'm at a dinner like i was at this very special dinner dinner that i went to And that's another box. And we can even see the table as the box and the people there. That's another box of communication. And so what I'm telling people about myself when everybody was going around and how I'm, that's another box of q communication, which is very different from being in a red telephone box, calling up a client. Okay.
Speaker: Right. Then we have the box, the box of the content on your LinkedIn, which is like a website. That's a box. Your website's another box of communication.
Speaker: And then in messages, if you're messaging people on LinkedIn, that's a box too. And then when you're getting on a Zoom call, it's another box and it's actually a square. When you think of all of these, that there is a square or a box involved in all of this in some way.
Speaker: and The dinner party could be the box of the house it was in. yes Or box could be the, you know, room that you're doing the networking event or speaking. They're all boxes. And as soon as we understand that it's all boxes and your mind works that way, it's easier to grasp this.
Speaker: What box am I in now? And how do you operate in the particular box? Because every box is different. And you need to be, again, I'll use the word nimble and fluid with how your communication flows in a different way. Does that mean that you have to adopt a different role depending upon which box you're in? You don't develop develop a different role.
Speaker: You develop a different way of speaking about what you do. Right. So, example, I'm on a podcast now. Yes. I'm talking about what I do in a certain way because we're talking about the future of sales.
Speaker: Right? Yes. I'm not going to do this same thing if I'm on a sales call because they're going to be asking me questions about working with me. Correct? yeah Different plots. I'm at that dinner party. I'm not going to be selling at the dinner party. That would be horrible, right? yep I'm also not going to be like I'm on a podcast just talking nonstop. I'm going to be eating dinner, listening to other people, making mental notes about what they're doing.
Speaker: And when they ask me what I do, I'm going to dispense information that is relevant to what they want to hear to a be entertained because I am entertaining if I'm nothing. Okay.
Speaker: To learn about what I do in a very like soft way. That's interesting and not pitchy at all. Okay. Not pitchy at all. Just, just telling about my life and they're intrigued then it's intrigued. And then they're thinking, Oh, hey, we got a you know couple people said we need to speak because i think we could work together. I'm like, okay, but it was not pitchy at all and I didn't even know what they did.
Speaker: So there's a very skill involved with that. Okay, that's a different box. Can you see that those three boxes already, very different boxes of how I am communicating about me, myself, my life or whatever it is we're talking about. Then we were talking about a lot of personal stuff, which I would not do you know on ah on a sales call, right?
Speaker: Right, so it's not about being a different person in different boxes. It's about having a different aspect of personality, more prominent in different boxes.
Speaker: No, actually not about the personality. Okay. We have to be congruent and fluid and authentic throughout and have a through line to our whole lives or we're fakes. and I'll tell you why. I'm just sorry. Cut you off rudely. I'm so sorry. No, no, no. Don't worry about it.
Speaker: The thing is this. I was an actress. Do you know that you could literally become a crazy person if you thought you were your roles in your real life? To keep your sanity, actors need to know what's real life and when they're going into a role or you will become like psychotic.
Speaker: Okay. So now let's talk about acting as a different role, but it became very clear to me when I was an actress that we really need to know who we are or we become psychotic because we'll be, we'll imagine we were that role. No, I'm acting now and now I'm not.
Speaker: has to be a very clear line to keep your sanity. to not become psychotic. However, in our lives, the the opposite is true. We need to have a through line that we are ourselves all the time.
Speaker: yes We are just talking about different things. It's just talking about different things and presenting aspects of your life in in an appropriate manner for the appropriate context.
Speaker: I think we agree with each other. yeah When I'm saying different aspects of our personality, I don't mean having a different personality. I mean that in some circumstances, we have to be very formal. In the third circumstances, we can be more relaxed. We're the same person.
Speaker: We're not pretending to be someone else. Right, but we're not actually, we're not consciously, this is the danger of what you're saying. Why I really want to like make, belabor this.
Speaker: We're not consciously saying, i'm going to be this part of my personality. That is not what I'm talking about. That is fake. And that is manipulative. And it's consciously changing your personality. Nothing to do with that.
Speaker: Merely, it's simpler. Merely, it's what you're talking about. Merely, what what you are talking about. Are we talking about jokey stuff? We're talking about salesy stuff. So you're not having to even think that hard about like, what part? No, I would never. I would literally become a crazy person if I had to think,
Speaker: what part of my personality I might, that's very, i don't know, like contrived. I'm not saying to be contrived at all. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying be yourself all the time.
Speaker: Just talk about the appropriate things in the appropriate box. That's all. And it automatically brings out those parts of your personality without thinking about it. Otherwise, that's a very hard way to live. And I am not advocating that.
Speaker: like sense, it's very different what you're saying what I'm saying. Right, okay. I think the difference is, just wording, but yes what you're saying is that we should not make conscious decisions to be different in different situations.
Speaker: We should be the same person, but read the situation, so that we get into that situation. Yes. It's it's human that's human emotional intelligence actually, is to adapt. All I'm talking about is two to key into the primary intelligence of a human being, is adaptation. I don't know if you know that.
Speaker: yes That is our primary primary intelligence. I'm saying, folks, we just got to like develop our primary intelligence, which is adaptation to a situation. That's all. it Which a lot of people are not going to.
Speaker: So as we go in further into the 21st century, which we're already 26 years into it, so it might not be the right sort of phrase to use, but what do you see the salesperson of the future being like?
Speaker: I think they have to stop being so fake. They have to stop doing what you just said. They have to turn up as themselves and they need to be just dinky die, true blue, turn up and sell what it is that they have that is great.
Speaker: And it's gonna be easy to sell because it's great. They turn up, they don't have to position themselves or get turn themselves into a pretzel to sell it. They just need to turn up honestly and say, hey,
Speaker: What do you need? Okay, you're you're having trouble getting sales. Clients, well, do we solve that? Well, yes or no. If you don't, then get off the phone. Yes, that's what we solve. Do you want to hear about how we help people? Great. Here it is. Got any questions? Yep.
Speaker: Do you think this would work? I do. Do you want to buy it? Yes. Simple. All So does that mean then? Hashtag unfake. That's what we got to say.
Speaker: Does that mean then that organizations will have to be more honest in the way in which they produce products and services and how they position them in the marketplace as well?
Speaker: Yes. We have to be better. Just create better stuff, folks, because if you do, then you'll be able to sell it. If you have bad stuff to sell, that's why you have to manipulate people and trick them. And then they got angry customers and it's not good. That's another whole system of faking, selling people that that don't want what you have.
Speaker: or It's not it's the wrong people. It's not a good, that solves a multitude of problems. Just be good, have very strong offers. And then the future, the future is hashtag unfake.
Speaker: That's the future. Stop being so fake. Turn up as a human being and turn up to serve people. people not to sell them when you get on a call and people understand you are there to serve them and see if you have a solution and serve them no matter what even to pass them on to other people if you're not a fit that elevates the selling to serving selling should be serving people that's the future so right there so it becomes
Speaker: serving people who have to decide what we're serving them with you have to decide well you're serving them with a st around well no you're just basically solving their problem yeah you're serving them by figuring out what it is that they have as as a gap and even if you are not the solution and you know somebody who is even so much as saying hey I don't do this but I'm going to refer you to somebody else that's serving right there yes yeah we agree with each other I agree with you. Yeah, for sure. But sales will not be sort of like focused on the target, the quarterly figures, the monthly figures, you know, the pipeline.
Speaker: It would be much more about research to identify the person that you need to speak to. Right. To identify the right organization. Right. To know much more about your client than your potential client than you need to know in order to... Right, right. It shouldn't just be, I've got a smallest person.
Speaker: Yes. You've got to be serving them. Yeah. if you' If you're serving them, it's like when I'm, as an ah HR ah professional, if I'm interviewing people for a job, um I would like them to know something about the organization that I work for.
Speaker: that I'm not quite aware of. That they have done their research, come up with something which is different to what I know and being able to present me with a scenario of of this piece of information combined with this piece of information means that this issue might come up for you in the future. Yes. and In order to prevent it happening, yes this would be a good idea.
Speaker: In order to to prevent it from happening, I would be the right person. Right. I believe it's about just simplifying everything. people My talent is simplifying complex stuff into simple systems. And i feel like with the age of ai and everything getting so complex, I feel like our anchor is simplifications. And I don't know if you know this, Michael, but true masters are the people that can simplify complex ideas. Yes. And I believe I'm a master at marketing how we teach people because it is so simple that anybody can do it.
Speaker: Because once you start adding complexity, most people just get confused and you will never get results. And it's the same thing. with going It's the kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. Yes, yes, keep it simple, stupid. but I call it Kisser because I don't like to call people stupid. Neither do I. So I call it Kisser, K-I-S-R, keep it simple, rock star.
Speaker: Good idea. and also it sounds nice it's a Kisser method. Yeah, good idea. that i get completely what it is that you're saying, is that the way in which people will buy will be different, which means that the way which people sell will be different, and people are less likely to respond positively.
Speaker: to someone who is aggressively selling or even assertively selling. Right. People will have greater levels of knowledge about the market, what is available, what isn't available. They'll have greater levels of knowledge about their own situation and they're looking for a solution.
Speaker: and You have to demonstrate how you provide that solution. Exactly. And in a way where, you know, people have to be compelled. Okay, this is the thing. let's just Your offer has to be like catnip for a cat.
Speaker: That's how much they should want to buy from you. If it is a, oh, well, maybe lukewarm, they're never going to buy. Your clients have to be like cats and your offer has to be like catnip. Make some crazy, yes, I want it.
Speaker: That's a good sale. We're just just so, yes, we need this. course, I'm going to invest. This is going to work. That's the emotion they need to feel is like, ah, I really need it. I want it. and I know it's going to work. When you go in and you're like, well, you know, it's lukewarm and maybe it'll work. That's a hard sale.
Speaker: That means that the solution was not that strong. So when you think that way, you're going to be that good, that they are, yes, I want this because this is exactly what I need. Now we're on the right track.
Speaker: Yes. I get what you mean. I can see it happening. And I that as a buyer, a commercial buyer, I am doing it already. I know what's in the market place.
Speaker: And I know what people have said on their websites and their leaflets, their brochures, and what's been in the press, what is what is good about it. And I also know what other customers have said about the products as well.
Speaker: We have a lot more information. It's like you're saying, the AI searches, internet searches there's a lot more information out there and buying is as much of a process as for sure being sold too and we owe it we owe it to ourselves as consumers or purchases buyers to do our research you know to do our research for the people for our own benefit for sure yeah
Speaker: Time flies, doesn't it, Jean? It flies when you're actually doing something which is interesting and you're learning at the same time. Absolutely. About half an hour, it's like come around very, very quickly, but I've learned a lot. I really do appreciate your time today. And thank you very much.
Speaker: Thank you. I appreciate it. You're so welcome. I hope that that your your market learned something from this and that you did. I did, certainly. Thank you very much. So welcome. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, John Omelor, a specialist in maximizing profits and impact.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us by using the links in the description. I'm sure you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as John and I have enjoyed making it.
Speaker: So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
Speaker: Until the next step episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
