Transcript
Speaker: On zencaster The all-in-one podcasting platform really does make making content so easy. All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I am your host, Michael Millward. Today, I'm going to be learning about what it is like to work with someone who has an addiction and how employers can best support that person so they remain a long-term successful employee.
Speaker: As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest, Independent Mind, is Jeff Jones from thefamilyrecoverysolution.com.
Speaker: Hello, Jeff. Well, hi there, Michael. Thank you for having me on your show. It's great to have you here. It's a very interesting topic that we're going to be discussing and one which I'm sure lots of people will be uncomfortable to listen to.
Speaker: And well, to be honest, probably affects more people than people are prepared to admit. Yeah, yeah. Well said. Whilst it may be sensitive, it is important. Please, could you give us a little bit of a summary of your career to date and what got you interested in in this type of type of subject, addiction? Yeah, yeah, sure. So I grew up in a family with addiction, not my family of origin, but family.
Speaker: Mother's father was the alcoholic in the family, and he is also the one that showered more love and attention upon me than anyone in my whole life. On the other side of that coin, my mom hated him. So it didn't feel safe for me to love my grandfather in my mother's presence.
Speaker: So it started with some confusing mixed messages. And as I got older, I just never forgot that. I mean, I had my own drug and alcohol journey when I was younger.
Speaker: I've never been to rehab. However, when I became a therapist, I had this opportunity to go, what do I want to do with this information?
Speaker: with with this license. And I really dove deep into families, addiction, and eventually trauma because of this childhood experience and because of seeing that there were many families who had much more negative impact than what I had.
Speaker: And there's numerous people that die every day from addiction-related causes, and families are on the front lines. They see this first.
Speaker: Generally, families are seen with this negative shaming label, and they're all kind of grouped together. They're all codependent and enablers.
Speaker: which there's a lot more to that. And I really see where they can be advocates, but not only advocates, but change how they think about addiction and what they do in relationship with their loved one who's in addiction.
Speaker: It's much more complex than simply our family member is an alcoholic or is addicted to this substance. Yeah. Root cause of it. Our natural state, I suppose, is not to be addicted to something, but something happens, which makes it easier for us to become addicted to something.
Speaker: Yeah, and I frame it as a myth. Mistaken ideology that's out there is that it's all just about one person and one person needs to change and then everything's better.
Speaker: Of course, that's a part of it. But if that's the only part of it, the family relationships can kind of pull that individual back into addiction or increase vulnerability for relapse.
Speaker: That's kind of a overview perspective that I see with the family and how you initially frame this from the standpoint of work.
Speaker: That is a very big part of all of our lives. Of course, people can't necessarily just leave their addiction at the door before they go to work.
Speaker: No, they can't. And with my HR hat on, that's one of the things that I think we need to be much more aware of and have a policy, a process, a procedure, some sort of system for making sure that we don't lose employees because of an addiction, that we have some way of organising how it will be managed.
Speaker: so It is the same as when you've been diagnosed with a life-altering illness or have had an accident which makes it more difficult for you to do things that you used to do.
Speaker: Work becomes something that is stable. It is consistency, stability. It is the future. and one of the things that, with my HR hat on, I'll say that again. Right.
Speaker: is that with addiction is that I'm very mindful that the devil makes work for idle hands. And you remove the stability of work, you have someone who's just simply sitting around. And it's only going to mean that the addiction is going to get worse.
Speaker: So responsible employers, caring employers, would want to have some sort of system in place that if they become aware of an employee either has or is at risk of developing some sort of addiction, that they have some sort of system in place, which then can capture that situation and contribute towards ensuring that it doesn't get any worse and hopefully can be remedied. Sure.
Speaker: Yeah. You said that the family of one of the first groups of people to become aware that someone has an addiction. When you said that, I thought if you're around somebody every day, you sometimes you don't notice the small changes in someone's behavior. Right.
Speaker: it's But what would be the signs that someone who's in regular contact with another person might notice if that other person has an addiction? What would be the signs?
Speaker: That's an excellent question. And let me first say that in the work culture, the framework or um how the work culture is set up can really do a lot to kind of encourage people to, one, become aware of little risks that to addiction before they become bigger problems. And yeah I say that because some work cultures are organized around FAC, Friday afternoon club, and we work hard and play hard kind of thing.
Speaker: So it's like if if an organization has a culture, which is that we go out, if we go out for lunch, we go out somewhere that serves alcohol. Yeah. yeah That is something that an employer should be aware of and not do and not encourage. If there is a regular betting, gambling on horse racing or events something,
Speaker: sporting events of any kind, that's perhaps something that an employer might want to think, is this actually a good policy to have? Do we need to control it a little bit to make sure that we're not putting we're not putting people in harm's way? Yeah, absolutely. And it it isn't that all drinking or going to a horse racing track now and then is bad and should be eliminated. For some people's bodies, they are much more vulnerable to having a risk become an addiction.
Speaker: And so there's an underlying, you know, genetic abnormal genetics people who are who are born with abnormal genetics are much more vulnerable than other people so we we can go out friday afternoon and have some drinks together and for some people that's not going to be a problem at all and for other people that can be a very slippery slope, especially if that kind of behavior happens regularly. and You're normalizing and authorizing the consumption of <unk> alcohol, especially if if the boss puts their credit card behind the bar and there's a tab, then You're normalizing and authorizing the consumption of something which in some people make yours a problem. Not in everyone, but in some people. Yeah, yeah. If the boss does that now and then a couple times a year or something like that, that's not that big of a deal. But if the boss is doing that like every Friday afternoon, that is problematic from my perspective. I think from most employers' perspective, that might be a bit of a problem because it's going to get expensive. And why aren't people at work on a Friday afternoon?
Speaker: Yeah, I want to swing back to your initial question about what might people see that could be warning signs, could be clues.
Speaker: of an addiction? That's not an easy question for me to answer, but you know one thing that I can say is when an employee's behavior changes significantly can be a huge sign when there's a significant change in what they normally would do.
Speaker: things like timekeeping? Sure. A perfect example. They're generally always on time and then they're not always on time. That could be a perfect example. But an example could be too is if they are generally people who are thoughtful about something before they just express themselves about an idea, but then they change to expressing a lot real quickly, abruptly, maybe taking the majority of airtime in a conversation where before it was more of a balanced.
Speaker: Some drugs are more of a stimulant to where it is going to stimulate people, get them ah moving quicker, talk faster, blah, blah, blah. And other drugs can be more of a depressant and kind of slow them down, that can be another thing to look out for.
Speaker: Alcohol is generally seen as a depressant in the human body, but for some people, alcohol can be a stimulant. And that's one of the biggest clues for me right there. When I see someone who has alcohol as a stimulant, I think of two particular alcohol biotypes is what Joan Matthew Larson calls them that is behind alcohol being a stimulant in the body.
Speaker: Employees can be aware of if another employee's behavior starts to change significantly and they notice a different pattern, that in itself can be something to at least be curious about and maybe talk about directly to them.
Speaker: When you say that a drug can be a stimulant, I can imagine in a workforce or a work environment where there is lots of pressure on and people work long hours that Some people may seek out the drug as a stimulant so they can work the hours that right they believe their employer expects them to work. Whereas actually bra they're tired, but they take the drug, they can work the hours that they believe their employer expects them to work. exactly There's someone who's zero experience of this type of environment and zero experience of these substances is that
Speaker: It's wide and it's varied and there is no definitive single answer to any of these predicaments that an employer may find themselves having to deal with.
Speaker: Yes, exactly. There is no one black and white answer. And Black and white thinking, I believe, really comes with every addiction.
Speaker: And you know black and white thinking, the way I initially think about that is I have an immediate impulse that comes up for me. i automatically believe it. I believe that's the whole truth. And I put it out. I express it to other people.
Speaker: there's either a right way or a wrong way kind of thinking. Addiction can pull not only the individual who's the host for the addiction, but addiction can pull everyone around them into black and white thinking.
Speaker: You're either with me or against me kind of thing. When in reality, there addiction a lot of different possibilities. There's gray. There's a lot of incremental steps in the in the gray.
Speaker: People around someone with an addiction can start to be curious about these incremental steps. And when they hear the black and white thinking, do their best not to be drawn in into it and start to be curious openly in conversation with points in the gray. So I was saying it's, there's no standard definition of the causes, no standard definition of the individuals. And we need to think outside of the black and white and look at the various different shades of gray in order to understand the individual as an individual. Yeah, in order to understand the individual and their particular relationship with whatever stage of addiction they're in
Speaker: i know that people with an addiction can be very good at hiding it. And very good at denying that it exists. Yes. And statements like, you know, smokers have said to me, oh, I can give up smoking tobacco anytime I like. I just don't want to.
Speaker: And it's like, yeah, I'm minded back to being at school, being 13, 14 in an assembly and ahead of year saying like, we know some of you smoke. We know that you know that it's not a great thing to do. We know that your parents may approve of it.
Speaker: But if you can't last from the time you get on the school bus in the morning to the time you get off the bus in the afternoon without having a cigarette, then you have a problem. That's an addiction. yeah It's where that takes over and you're not making the choice. yes the drug is The drug, whatever it is, whether it's tobacco, alcohol, something else, or a behavior, the the rush of adrenaline that you get when you place a bet, for example.
Speaker: Yeah. If you can't last a day without it, then you have a problem. well kind of leaning in into what I hear you saying, Michael, there's also foods that can become an addiction and sugar is one of the primary ones and sugar is implanted into so many of the foods we eat, like all the processed foods. That can be problem. So there's a thing called the pro-recovery diet that actually kind of has quite a bit of structure around it that people can learn about. addiction can start with something as simple as sugar or carbohydrates or chocolate. I know about the chocolate one.
Speaker: but So do i Welcome to the club. Yeah. You shouldn't joke about these sort things, but it is. It's at the thin edge of the wedge and people forget, I suppose, that sugar in itself is an addictive product. If you eat chocolate without the sugar, without the milk, go to the cacao, it is a bitter, bitter, bitter taste. right It's not something you're going to eat it and on a large scale.
Speaker: But you add the milk, you add the sugar, and you start getting to that lovely, that just loveliness. The the sweet spot, so to speak. they're very Very, very much so.
Speaker: I can quite get how Some people will have a an addictive personality and will be at higher risk of becoming addicted to a substance or an activity and in so many different ways.
Speaker: Right. We've talked about the signs that an employer might notice, and they they seem to be the same sort of signs as you might notice if for so many different things. Right.
Speaker: Being aware of how an employee normally is and spotting differences is a good way to identify that something is not right, whether it's an addiction or the unhappiness at home, unhappiness at work.
Speaker: The changes in behavior are your indicator that there is something that isn't right and you may be in a situation where you could offer some sort of support. If you go into an employer, though, Jeff, and sort of ask them about what they do in terms of supporting employees that have been identified as having some form of addiction, what would that employer have that would make you think there is no work for me here?
Speaker: The perfect employer, what would the perfect employer of somebody with an addiction be doing? I appreciate the question here, Michael. The perfect employer would create a work environment that enables health and healthy dynamics and healthy relationship and um healthy relationship between employees and Yeah, you know, kind of an employer who is concerned about the health of their employees and the employer enabling that as opposed to enabling old patterns that reinforce addiction. And when I say old patterns that reinforce addiction, I mean, maybe a pattern of just being concerned about the bottom line and
Speaker: working people, overworking people, even when there are signs that people are being overworked.
Speaker: That's kind of a simplistic yeah kind of way to say that employers can create a work culture that is more concerned with the whole person than just concerned with the bottom line.
Speaker: You're thinking about it in a much more holistic way than, yeah oh, if somebody has an addiction to alcohol, this is what we would do. If someone has an addiction to cocaine, this is what we would do. If somebody is a gambling addict, this is what we would do. yeah You're saying that actually... It starts at a much more fundamental level than that. And you've got to think, how are you going to manage your business? right What is the underlying attitude? How does that attitude affect people?
Speaker: What you've been saying is that addiction is a very individual process. What we mustn't do as employers is think about everyone as just you know every ah person with an addiction is the same.
Speaker: They're not. They're very individual. But what you're saying as well, though, is that having a policy and a process for individual things, cocaine, alcohol, gambling, right chocolate, whatever it is, is not the way forward. The way to deal with the issue is to have a culture, an attitude which says we're not going to necessarily focus on the things that we don't want to have happened. we're going to focus on the things that we want to see employees doing. So we create a culture.
Speaker: Yeah, we're looking for the positive yeah rather than negative. And we're saying, this is the way in which we expect you to work. This is what we're going to do to support you to work that way. Even if you know if you have a vending machine with snacks in that you take out what we call crisps, you call chips, the chocolate, the fizzy drinks, and you make it healthier.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. think You framed that really well from the standpoint of what employers can do to kind of prevent addiction and it also increases communication and people feeling like they belong with something but the other side of that continuum that i see anyhow is when there is a problem when someone does have an addiction it's in the workplace what what can an employer do? One of the things that I have seen employers do, as opposed to just jumping to black and white thinking and firing them, um which is probably the quickest, easiest, cheapest thing for an an employer to do, is that they can
Speaker: raise the awareness of the addiction and ask that person to engage in a process to where they can get better, where they can get past that addiction, where they can heal from it. And that could also include family support. I'm not sure how many employers have the kind of work culture that is like a family culture, not just in the work environment, but that includes people's families. Because when it includes people's families, then the employer can actually set up a system, an agreement with the employee that has the addiction
Speaker: of what are they going to do? What are the steps they're going to do? What are the expectations at the end of each step? And how do we stay connected with that process to where we know that person is being accountable?
Speaker: So what I'm suggesting here and what and what I've seen with some workplaces that look at more the whole person that they will support that person in a program that has accountability, a system of communicating progress over time, rebuilds trust with family members. Sure. That's my angle, but also rebuilding trust
Speaker: in the relationship with the employer and other employees. For someone who has an addiction to something, Once they have acknowledged the existence of the addiction, one of the best ways, not the the best way or the only way or anything, but one of the possible ways in which that person can be helped to heal from the addiction is if the individual, their family, their friends, their employers are all on their side.
Speaker: It's all a team effort and everyone has a role to play. in supporting that person to heal. Yes. Whereas it may be easier to so say, this is what we do for someone.
Speaker: That's not necessarily the right thing to do because each individual is an individual and requires a different individual right healing plan.
Speaker: So employers have to keep an open mind. Yeah, absolutely. so I'm ah a big supporter and advocate here of employers kind of creating a work environment that is more of a team or family and the support is more to the whole person, not just kind of pushing people to produce as much as possible for the bottom line. And I i mean, I don't know the exact place, but I know there are statistics out there that... um and And there was an experiment. It it was like...
Speaker: of a big organization, you know, that was open five days a week. And I i think pushed people, you know, to work 10 hours, maybe maybe more every day. And eventually over time, they went back to four days a week and not four 10 hour days, but less than 10 hour days and they actually produced more.
Speaker: That's the four day week campaign, Jeff, the four day week. ah But for today, thank you very much. found it really interesting. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for having me on your show and thank you for the inquisitive questions. They really press me to kind of think more about the workplace.
Speaker: It's my job. I'm an HR person. Thank you very much. I appreciate your feedback. It's great. Thank you very much. Thanks, Michael. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abucida, and I've been having a conversation with the independent minds, Jeff Jones from thefamilyrecoverysolution.com.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us at abucida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I'm sure that you will have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, so why not give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
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Speaker: Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
