Transcript
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Speaker: All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I am your host, Michael Millward. Today I am going to be learning why success for employees of all kinds is inevitable from Ryan Christensen, the author of Winner Peace, How to End Inner Conflict and Make Success Inevitable.
Speaker: Ryan is an author, hypnotist, a veteran, a former intelligence officer. His focus in his work now is on peak mental performance and ending internal conflict and suffering.
Speaker: Ryan calls Austin, Texas in the United States home. It's not somewhere that I have ever been, But if I do go, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club, because that is where I get trade prices on trains, flights and hotels, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
Speaker: You'll find a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now that I've paid the rent, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. That will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Speaker: Very importantly, on the independent minds, we don't tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Hello, Ryan. Well, thank you so much for having me back. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes, I should point out that we have already recorded an episode of another Abbasida podcast. fit for my age, which is well worth listening to.
Speaker: But thank you very much for remembering it. And thank you for coming back. Please, could we start with a bit of a description, explanation of of your history and and how you ended up doing what you're doing today? Sure. So it's kind of an interesting history. um It turns out that I have autism, but I didn't get diagnosed until I was almost 48 years old. So early on, I kind of needed a reason to keep going, which led me into the saving the world kind of job.
Speaker: 11 years in the military, Marine Corps and National Guard. Did 16 years in DC, working counterterrorism in counterterrorsism from town for liberation. But around 2019, 2020, I realized the world did not want to be saved. So I'm clearly in the wrong line of business.
Speaker: And about the same time, i was doing a lot of work on myself. And that's kind of how I got introduced to hypnosis. And what I found was it was pretty much the single most powerful, fastest way I could actually make some serious change. 80, 90% of the problems that we're dealing with are subconscious mind. We've got a lot of tools to do deal with things on conscious and rational levels, but getting deep in there is a lot harder.
Speaker: Psychedelics and hypnosis are pretty much it. Psychedelics are beautiful, big part of my journey, but they don't you don't really have any control over that. They take you out on whatever ride they want you. you know and You don't have a lot of opportunity to change things while you're there. So hypnosis kind of lets me get down there, figure out exactly what the problem is, do some surgery and come on back when the job is done.
Speaker: And that's led you to making that your career and also writing the book. Absolutely. Tell us little bit about the book. I look at things very differently. Like I said, I'm autistic. And so my mind doesn't quite work the way everybody else's does. And one of the most frustrating things about it is I can't lie to myself and I can't pretend that better equal is fixed. Right. So I tried pretty much everything under the sun to fix things and didn't quite get there. So I just started digging.
Speaker: The book winner piece is kind of a exploration of the things I realized and things I understood things I kind of put together pieces of the puzzle in a different way. Looks at the world in a different way, looks at the mind in a different way, looks at how we develop in a different way and kind of how we get to where the problems we have are and some ways to kind of fix it from a very very different perspective with some different tools. so i did with with my HR professionals hat on, of course, how all of this relates to the working environment, because there's the things that we do when we're not at work, but we spend an awful lot of time at work. The challenges that we face at work when we don't necessarily fit in or feel as if we fit in, well, it can ruin people's careers and certainly can make them very unhappy at work. So
Speaker: Thinking about the journey that you've been on and what you've learned, how does what you've learned impact or how have you seen it impact people in their working days, working life?
Speaker: Well, think about it this way, about 70% of the population have an insecure attachment style of some kind, know whether anxious or avoidant or what have you, which means that about 70% of us grew up in environments where we just couldn't get the support we needed, couldn't get what we needed kind of writ large. And that causes us to do some interesting adaptations, right?
Speaker: The first thing is back when then you only really have control of yourself. So you start looking at yourself as a problem that needs to be fixed. and experience a lot of a negative emotions. So now your mind kind of has to get to a point where it has to protect you from that emotional pain.
Speaker: That's kind of like the things that that sets you up for the rest of your life in terms of how you're gonna adapt. And in the book, I talk about kind of two traps we get into. First one is a cage. This one's pretty easy to see. You know, you're kind of boxed in by your pain and security. You know, things are okay.
Speaker: Lights are on, booze on the table, bills are paid, but everything that you really want, everything that really makes life worth living, everything you're really hoping for is kind of on the outside of the cage. you're not really allowed to go go for it, right? These are the guys that are, you know, there's big gap between where they are and where they should be, right? Just never really able to perform at their level. yeah Who decides where they are? Well, I suppose who they where they are is where they are. It's like, yes does everyone see the are in the same sort of way? And who is deciding where they should be?
Speaker: Well, think about it this way. um They know where they are, right? You know their situation, you're okay. Like things are okay, right? But you're just not getting what you need and you and you know it.
Speaker: As far as what they should and should not do, it's more a question of what is safe or not safe to do. And lot of situations kind of like going for what they really want failing, would bring up all those negative opinions that have in to themselves, kind of reinforce like, yeah, you are not good enough. You're not capable or you're not smart enough or whatever that happens to be. That's going to cause a lot of pain, right? And might push into some pretty dark places. So it's safer just not to take that shot.
Speaker: So in some ways, people aren't reaching their full potential. And in other ways, people could actually be trying to achieve their full potential, but not actually recognizing what that potential is because they don't have a positive self-impression.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. If the, you know, if you grew up an environment where nothing really worked for you and it's hard to try it, like it's really hard to think that you're capable, but You've got an entire worldview that's built when you're young that says you're not, you know, especially if you're in school and they're saying you're not smart enough or you can't get it right. You know, for me, the world just flat out did not work.
Speaker: you know I was capable, I could make way through, but it was always a heck of a lot harder for me than everybody else because I'm autistic and I'm growing up in Kansas. Nobody has any idea how to help me. right So i always knew that there was something wrong with me because there were there was compared to everybody else, but it was always in terms of social.
Speaker: my came to professional stuff, intelligent guy, really good idea, that was never a problem. That's kind of the tool that I use to keep myself going, which is the second trap. Second trap is what I call the treadmill or or the hamster wheel, right?
Speaker: You've got this like Batman origin story, growing up a situation don't like for some reason, but you find a way up. You got a talent of some kind. That's academics or business or athletics or whatever happens to be. a lot of people join the military same way.
Speaker: And you're really good at it. You like doing it, getting a lot of rewards for it. Right. And so it's really hard to tell that there's a problem because you're doing exactly what you want to. But if you take your foot off the gas, slow down at all, all those kinds of demons of the past start to start to catch up. So it's kind of a carrot and stick situation. Keep chasing the carrot or you get the stick.
Speaker: And that's actually what happens with a lot of the high performance in business and elsewhere it is like they got to keep going. And you can tell these guys are pretty easily because number one, they never really take a break. They're always charging hard as as fast as they can. They're always trying to beat and exceed every single target.
Speaker: As soon as they accomplish a goal, they're on to the next one, right? They just never slow down. They're never satisfied.
Speaker: So would you say that that person is working hard because they're ambitious, working hard because they don't know how to not work hard, or that they're doing something that is perhaps much more negative, just try just doing things to try and prove themselves, or just prove themselves worthy because they haven't got the confidence, the self-confidence, to believe that they they should be in that job. I think imposter syndrome is ah is an expression that comes to mind. Yeah, well, imposter syndrome workside ah is is actually the flip side of that. That's somebody who's in the cage, right? Because when imposter syndrome, you're actually good at something, you don't believe it, right?
Speaker: That's somebody who has that lower self-esteem, not seeing themselves as very capable and everybody around them telling them, awesome, well, doesn't fit their self-concept, so it's really hard for them to accept. The flip side the coin is fundamentally, if you are chasing goal after goal after goal, you're trying to prove something yourself, right? Whether that's your capable, your self-worth, whatever that happens to be, you're trying to prove it, right?
Speaker: But the only things we have to prove are things we don't believe.
Speaker: fundamentally. So if you keep trying, charging, charging, trying to prove, improve, improve, you don't believe that you're good enough. You don't believe that you're capable trying to reinforce that from the outside in. And that just never works. Your mind just is true and false based on what it already believes. And if it doesn't believe, you know, if the belief is I'm not good enough, you can't prove it wrong from the outside in.
Speaker: So it's a heck of a trap, but that's kind of how we do the deal with things in this society. Now, as far as why they're doing it, you know, it could be in a number of reasons. The way I kind of say is if you're driven, you're running from something. Yes.
Speaker: Ambition is little bit different, right? Ambition is positively motivated. Ambition is you're inspired. There's something big you want to create. Right. But you have the capacity to take your foot off the gas. You have the capacity to pivot.
Speaker: And quite often when you're ambitious, just ambitious, you got big vision. You're not necessarily doing it in a way that you keep score. Right. In my business, I'm trying to help, ah you know, in suffering and unleash potential. That's not something you could really measure.
Speaker: I can keep counting lives, but that's really about as close as I can get. And even that's really hard to to understand because every life I impact impacts ah countless others. But that's okay. Cause I don't have to keep score because I'm not trying to prove anything.
Speaker: yeah How would a manager who'd got someone in their team who was a high performer be able to identify whether that person was a high performer and ambitious or a high performer who was doing performing at a high standard from a negative perspective because they're trying to prove something to themselves?
Speaker: what's What's the difference between the two? How could I see it? Well, I'd say the quickest and easiest way is to look at the rest of your life. If the rest their life is a mess, they're doing it from a negative perspective. Look at their relationships. If they have stable relationships, they are always bouncing in and out. Do they have partners that are actually good fit for them and supportive? Or are they just, ah you know, more toxic relationships or, yeah know, mostly for show?
Speaker: That happens a lot, right? Look at how, ah how they start their life. Is it all for, you know, flashy stuff, showy stuff? Are they going on the vacations? That's the Instagram, just pure perfectly curated, right?
Speaker: That kind of person is trying to create a certain image, right? They're kind of trying to be a certain kind of person. Somebody just ambitious, they tend to have, well, a lot more humility about them, right?
Speaker: Look at like Bill Gates, you guy built something massive, Jeff Bezos, right? Steve Jobs. Look at all these guys who have built something really, really big, tend to be married, stable relationships, you know kind of boring home life.
Speaker: Now these guys are out on yachts, you know, driving around Lamborghinis and, you know, $800,000 watches. It's pretty subtle, pretty, uh, understated. Warren Buffett's a great example for this too. Yes. Right. Those guys had ambitious, they got vision, but they set to build something like that. You need stability. You need a foundation. You need support.
Speaker: Yes. know, so if you see a lack of that, you know, if this guy's the only guy in his world, that's really, uh, really there for himself, then that's a pretty good sign that it's more the negative it's driven. You're ah trying to prove something rather than trying to build something.
Speaker: Part of me sort of thinking back to various different people that I've worked with and and positioning them as like, is this person ambitious or is this person trying to prove something to to me and to them or whoever they need to provide it to? And when you say the people that had It's like solid family backgrounds, a home to go back to, something more than some than just can yes, there are people who...
Speaker: a job i i can see yeah yes there are people who will work extremely hard at work, but then will say, well, actually, you know, it's five o'clock, I'm going home. There is a family thing that I am doing tonight.
Speaker: And they're gone. Yes. And because I think they know that they've done everything that they can do today on that project, and they'll pick it up tomorrow and do more on it because they don't have this need to be seen to be at work. Yeah. And I think that the other piece is they actually have, you know, an actual life.
Speaker: Yes. yeah know, they're, they're, they're working to live, not living to work. Yes. The person who's got, you know, who's driven, who's ah doing it from a need to prove themselves, you know, doing it for a need for ego and identity.
Speaker: That's all they are is their job. Right? They don't have that well-rounded life. They don't have deeper roots. Right? And it's really obvious when you start looking, you know, just take a step back and start looking at the rest of your life.
Speaker: You know, what's actually important to you. Yeah. I think for a lot of managers, asking the questions or making the observations that you're suggesting, it's actually going to be quite difficult because they're not used to even a trying to build, I think what you're describing is a personal relationship with, or a relationship beyond the instructions that are required to get the job done with their with their team.
Speaker: it's It's almost like a manager has to be slightly more engaged, more caring, more interested in their team to understand them. But actually what you're saying, I think, is that we need to, and as managers, stroke leaders, we need to understand our employees beyond the job that they're doing and try to understand why they're doing it, what is motivating them, and as a consequence also what will demotivate them.
Speaker: I was fortunate to to go in the Marine Corps early on and Marine Corps has got some fabulous leadership training. um Really, really do. And a couple of the principles who really stand out are the idea of knowing your command and employing them within their capabilities and ah knowing your troops and looking out for the welfare. right Those two things are pretty central, right?
Speaker: Because if I don't care too much about you and I don't really investigate like which your strengths and weaknesses are, how am I supposed to get the best out of you? right I might as well just hire a bunch of Philippines, from ah you know VAs from the Philippines at that point, if I'm just looking for people to do what exactly what I say and it the way it way I say it.
Speaker: Conversely, if I know your weaknesses, I know what you need support wise, then I can get the most out of you because you they don't have to worry about shoring up their weaknesses themselves. yes One of the best managers I had early on, you former Marine Corps helicopter pilot, helicopter pilots, it is impossible to climb out of the the pilot seat of a helicopter and not look cool. ah You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Same thing with jet fight you know fighter jet pilots. It's pretty much just like cool written all over it. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: They're cool. Yeah. Well, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So one of the things, his style was so good. Like we had, we had a team, probably four or five of us doing some, ah you know, pretty interesting work and I'd go in the office like, all right, this is what got. And this kind of what i'm seeing. And this guy, it's like, okay, what do you think you should do? It's well, I think we should do this. And I said, okay, great. you need anything for me? I'm just like, no, I think we're good for now. It's all right. Go forth and be brilliant.
Speaker: Yes. Right. He knew that it's like, Hey, my job is to work for my job is to execute on the things he's created. His job is to give me what I need to do that. And part of his job is to make sure that everybody else stays off my back so I can do my job.
Speaker: Right. If I had a lot of issues with another department or another agency, I'm like, Hey, here's what's going on. Cool. I'll handle it. You get back to work. And so it's kind of that, that beautiful sort of task organization. What are you the best at keeping office politics, by the way, great, do that, get them what they need, give them every bit of support.
Speaker: And they're gonna be able to perform their maximum because they don't have to worry about anything that's outside their lane. Yeah, when you mentioned politics there, and thinking the ambitious person is probably someone who's going to be looking for other people that they can help and be helped by so that they can focus on the task that they have been given.
Speaker: And I'm suspecting that someone who is working hard to prove themselves is probably going to be somewhat more political. and probably somewhat more divisive as well and finding faults with others rather than celebrating people. And like you say, understanding someone and working out what it is that that person needs from me in order to give me what I need from them. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker: It's all about ego, right? Somebody who's ambitious knows they're good. right? But they also have a very good understanding of where they're not so good, where they're weak, right? They've got an idea of their strengths, but also their weaknesses. They know where they need support, right? And they're not afraid to put that out there.
Speaker: Somebody who's who's driven, who's coming out of a more toxic mindset, who's got that more egocentric perspective, real hard time admitting their mistakes, admitting when they're wrong, looking at their weaknesses, right? That's another big tell. How well do they take criticism?
Speaker: How well do they come to you and say, hey, I screwed up? So somebody who's ambitious is looking to maximize everything they can, and that means learning from their mistakes as well as owning their successes. But someone who's working hard to prove themselves will be trying to cover up their mistakes.
Speaker: Exactly, because that would be proving that they're not who they say they are or not as good as they say they are. if If someone is working hard because they're ambitious, the feedback that they're looking for is almost like, tell me where I haven't done a good job so I can learn from it.
Speaker: Whereas someone who is working hard to prove themselves isn't so much interested in what they've done wrong or what could be done better. They want you to tell them that they're wonderful.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And I think there's another group as well that we kind of have to mention. Some people are just in it for the love of the game. Think about like an engineer. They don't care about office politics. They don't care about ambitious. They want to do cool stuff, right? Those kinds of people who seem to give them whatever they they need to get out of their way because those are the ones that are really going to deliver. Because it's not about them. It's the problem. It's the it's ah it's the job. It's the project, whatever you want to call it. They just love digging into solving problems. That was always me. yeah I never cared about office politics. Couldn't tie my test. I was never going to win at that game.
Speaker: Man, did I love so solving problems. Give me the biggest, hairiest, most complicated thing you can, please. Right? Please. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't about proving anything. I was just enjoying my, enjoying the day. You know, I love taking stuff like that apart.
Speaker: I don't think i' ever really got much awards or my kudos. I'm just like, Hey, just give me the next one. I don't care. Just give me the next one. Right? So it really is about sitting down and taking a look at, okay, who's on your team? How are they wired?
Speaker: How are they built? What is important to them? Right? Cause if you understand what's important to them and why it's really easy to give them what they need, it's really easy to figure out how to support them. It's really easy how to keep them in check when you need to. That's kind of one of the hard parts with those driven egotistical types is like you need to check them sometime to make sure they don't like have that collateral damage messing with the rest of the team. Yes. Their ego and their need to prove themselves doesn't the way of your team's success. Right. Yes. It's one of things that I so say is that if you want to improve the profitability of the organization, you've got to improve the productivity. Right.
Speaker: And you do that by getting people more interested in their work yeah so that they don't take the casual day off sick. They don't let the the product or the service that isn't quite up to standard go out of the building, that sort of thing. And the way in which you do that, I think, is that you have to find a way to connect the person's lifestyle aspirations and career ambitions to the objectives that you want them to fulfill or the standards that you want them to fulfill and vice versa so that people can see a direct connection between the work that they do and the lives that they lead.
Speaker: Now, what you were saying earlier about ambitious people will have a life away from work and will be involved in activities which provide them with a balanced life. And the work that they do is to enable them to have that life. So that sort of process would be quite straightforward with someone who's ambitious. When you talk about someone who's working financially, hard in order to prove themselves and they don't have that outside work life, then it's going to be very much more difficult to actually motivate them, encourage them to do the things that you really need them to do. i would disagree. Because they will just be focused on themselves.
Speaker: I disagree because fundamentally, as long as you give them a ladder to climb, a metric to measure and a reward for it, you don't have to motivate them. They're looking to run up points on this on the scoreboard. they're running They're looking to run up a high score. So all you have to do is give them a way to keep score and a way to freaking, you know, to go high for it and i reward them when they do.
Speaker: Whether that's verbal praise, whether that's a, you know, award of some kind, whether it's a raise, a financial incentive, you don't have to worry about motivating They're gonna be driving as hard as they can for as high of score as they can. So just give them a way to keep score.
Speaker: But they're not doing it in order to build their life away from work, not building a work-life balance. Yeah, but that's their choice. It is. But also, I can imagine that those people are more likely to reach a point of burnout, frustration. It's great when they are working hard and they they believe that they're enjoying themselves and that they can they've got that next challenge and all this sort of stuff. But without the safety valve, the other side of life, the non-work side of life. I can imagine that, well, I can foresee that they will reach a point where the the feedback that they get, the results that they get, the rewards that they get aren't actually satisfying anymore. And at some point, it will catch up with them and they either have I'm leaving or I'm really unhappy. I'm going to become destructive, whether that's consciously or subconsciously. Or body just turns around and says, we are we're only going to take a break now. You're going to stop.
Speaker: Like trying to get people back onto something which helps them position their ambition and their willingness to work in something that is more positive. Fundamentally, i'm I'm a big, I'm almost a free will absolutist. I'm i'm not gonna mess with somebody's life choices, period. I kind of show them to you i'll hold I'll hold up a mirror and say, hey, are you sure this is what you want to do? Or are you aware is what's going on? Something like that's not gonna listen though, because they think they're doing exactly the right thing. And if you look at the world in terms of what they say about success and productivity, they are. if They're doing exactly the right thing from the outside in.
Speaker: Right. For that kind of person, you need to be ready to support them. Right. Number one need to be on the lookout for the science that they've got some um unhealthy coping mechanisms out there because you're going to see it start impacting work. Right.
Speaker: You know, tardiness or just irritability or disruptiveness or whatever that happens to be. Right. That's a sign where they're using something to cope outside of work. That's just really not a healthy thing. And that's the point where can interview and say, hey, i don't know what's going on, but this can't be going on here. And that's the point where you can kind of get them to make some choices. Right. But the other thing is just it comes right down to that beautiful thing that happens to pretty much every every guy between 40 and 50. It's called the midlife crisis.
Speaker: Yeah. Right. Where you've been going on a plan and it's been working phenomenal. It's like I've i've checked all the boxes doing exactly the right thing. It's like, why the heck do I not feel the way I'm supposed to? Why the heck do I not have the reward that I'm supposed to? And as soon as you start seeing that confusion, like, ah, this is the opportunity to get them to see something different. yeah Right. That's the opportunity to offer that mentorship. That's the opportunity to open that door. And fundamentally, that's that's part a big part of why I wrote the book is to show them, hey, look, this is where things happen.
Speaker: Your treadmill, your hamster wheel is going to break at some point. And then what are you going to do And having that safety net, having that wider understanding and knowing there's another way to play the game, like that's the the truly interesting thing.
Speaker: That's the way that life really changes for the better. At least it did for me. yeah Is it possible to identify someone who is living outside in, someone who's working hard to prove themselves at interview stage, or is it something that develops over time? Can you sort of say, if someone is answering questions in this way, if someone is behaving in this way, this person is potentially someone who will be working to prove themselves work rather than working because they're ambitious?
Speaker: No, they're in the interview state. Number one, they're coming into it. Right. Wired that way. They've been this wired this way probably since like, I don't know, teenage years, if not earlier. Right. So you can really start asking some questions like, you know, how are things for you growing up in terms of like, you know, do you like sports and so forth and so on? Do you like do a lot of competitions? Great. Somebody who's competitive.
Speaker: That's an interesting sign. Right. Ask them about, ah you know, what they like to do outside of work. know, what's their home life like, know, what, it ah that kind of thing. Or, Another beautiful idea is like, okay, why do you like doing what you do?
Speaker: Like, what is it that really, know, that you really get out of this, right? Like, what's your big dream that you want to create? Guy says, I want to be C-suite. That's probably guy that's more um driven than the guy who says, I want to create a better world, or I got this thing, or I got this dream, or I want to do for my family. That's a different kind of motivation.
Speaker: Yes. Just look at, you know, what their dream is and is it about them or is it about something bigger? Yeah. Yeah. Is the dream about them or is it about something bigger? Yeah.
Speaker: yeah That just rolls off your tongue, but it's actually quite profound, I think. Yeah. It's a question to be thinking about every candidate that we have.
Speaker: Is their dream about them or is it something bigger? Wow. yeah Ryan, I always enjoy talking to you. i always learn so much. I really do appreciate your time today. It's been great. Thank you for helping me make such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds.
Speaker: well Michael, thank you for having me on. our always love our discussions and it's an honor to be here as always. yeah Thank you very much. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. And in this episode of The Independent Minds, I have been having a conversation with Ryan Christensen, the author of Winner Peace, How to End Inner Conflict and ah Make Success Inevitable.
Speaker: You can find out more information about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. At The Independent Minds, we believe that it's important to be healthy. And one of the best ways to stay healthy is to know the risks early.
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Speaker: Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
