Transcript
Speaker: Zero -click marketing. Is it the new mobile first?
Speaker: Welcome to r ROI University. a higher ed marketing show for people turning big ideas into real results. Join Rustem Arani and Chris Shepard as they explore the strategies, stories, and technology shaping how institutions connect with students. From marketing and enrollment to data and AI. Every conversation brings a fresh perspective and something you can put to work.
Speaker: This is ah ROI University. All right. Well, today we've got a special guest on with us, Chris. So I know we're both very excited to have.
Speaker: Our world famous chat with Charlie on with us, the world famous. I can't tell you. I've definitely been asked that before. Like, hey, have you have you been on Chat with Charlie? Have you seen Chat with Charlie? charles oh You made a name for yourself, Charlie. I don't know about that, man.
Speaker: But we've got Charlie Parker with us. He's the Vice Chancellor of Enrollment Management and Chief Marketing Officer at Kaiser University. so Charlie, thanks for joining us. We're excited to. ah To jump in. I know you know from knowing you for a number of years how passionate you are about marketing, about the student experience, about the student journey, and so on. So I know we'll touch a little bit on some of that stuff.
Speaker: Well, also, I'd love to get your takes on some of what we're hearing with the zero click marketing world and some of the other stuff out there. But yeah, if you don't mind just doing a quick introduction to yourself and then we'll we'll jump right in.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean who doesn't like introducing themselves, right? So, yeah, I love it. rose Yeah. Charlie Parker with Kaiser right now. I've been with him for two years. global organization system. Pretty happy to be here. We're part of the iCuff, if you know what that is, part of Florida. We we ran ran from one or two schools with the other 15, 16s. Rustem, I know you got some canes in your household. so So we're part of that peer group, if you will. And I've been loving it, man. We got like a... It's crazy, Rustem and Chris. like
Speaker: I've mainly been on the trade sides for so long. And to be in a nonprofit sector, have athletics, have 100 ,000 plus graduates, you know, 30 ,000. arguably walk in the halls at any time students. It's it's really, ah ah yeah, I have to pinch myself. I've been really, really fortunate to be here and and kind of trying to do what I can do to keep our ah sustainable growth going, man.
Speaker: Yeah. and i And I think that's awesome when you mentioned that the sports and everything. And I do see your posts on LinkedIn where you're, ah you know, you're promoting like an incredible swimmer that just won an award or your football team, right? Being at homecoming and like some of that stuff.
Speaker: I remember your former post never had that stuff. So to see that kind of come out, that's pretty cool. So I agree. And I think there's something to be said about that from a brand perspective as well.
Speaker: And we don't need to go too far into this, but this is just kind of my thought right off the bat because you said that is I do believe and I think Chris and I are both aligned on this is as we are seeing zero click marketing and we're seeing LLMs kind of continuing to grab market share away from Google. Brand? Brand awareness, you know, all of that continues to be more and more important.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, I would love to get your take on like. Now that you're on that side, you're on the football field, you've got some of these things like... How impactful is that, do you believe, for for a school seeing that side?
Speaker: for It's amazing, in fact. you know I'd love to talk about this just as a subject because it's it's so hard to leverage though. with that authentic side because you can't like for us with kaiser university it If it comes from Kaiser.
Speaker: Of course it is. But if it comes from a faculty member or comes from a student or comes from a graduate or comes from a partner, it's so more impactful. and And you guys know better than I do. And kind of this, I did, I did register this. So I'm waiting for my R. So anytime someone says this, I'm hoping I get coins.
Speaker: But narrative management is so important right now, right? And you take a, you know, we've been, you know, Rustem and Chris, just the longevity. and And like I say, you guys have been way more successful than I have. But.
Speaker: We were so reliant on search, so reliant on display, so reliant on aggregators, you know, like 80, 85 % of your mix is usually just that. And we forgot about brand. brand We forgot about having been fun. And so for me, I love it.
Speaker: But I'm also scared because I know I can't do it by myself. You know, it it takes a village, so to speak, to get that narrative out there so that the LMs pull it in and authentic grief and authentic matter for trust. but You got to go where the puck's going.
Speaker: or is going to be, so to speak. And that's that's the thing for all of us that are in this this adventure that we call marketing is we've got to be such a student of the game. And some of us, like me, I got to go back and and do research. Because it's not the same old game. It's changed.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know what you guys think. but Yeah. And I love that you said that, you know, I've heard and actually was on recently on a podcast. I heard a chat with Charlie.
Speaker: No, it wasn't chat with. Yeah, that's right. We'll have to check it out sometime. chris That's right. But. ah I think actually it was, and I i looked at it up ah today, and Gary Vee, so gar Gary Vaynerchuk, right, we all know. Big fan. Yeah, the the man. He said almost a year ago, he's like he was saying that google Google is kind of turning itself into the new Yellow Pages, or it's becoming the new Yellow Pages. Yeah, that's right. Okay. That's an interesting analogy. and like what
Speaker: exactly did he mean by that, right? You know, and really what he was saying was. Yellow pages, ah you know, had a monopoly, just like Google had a monopoly. Like you went to Google, if you wanted to find any product service or whatever, that was kind of the place you went. yellow yeah You had to open the book to find out we didn't have cell phones back then. Right. That was where we got all of our.
Speaker: information about companies, products, services, whatever. and That is the same monopoly that Google has had for so long. And now. Good choice of words, too.
Speaker: Yeah, and now... That's not so much the case when you look at the LLMs and AI searches and what's happening.
Speaker: So, Chris, Bruce and I know each other. We we haven't met, so we're going to meet in the show. And I don't mean to cut off, but it gets me so fired up because think about where we've been. Jerry Springer, Geraldo, Sally Jesse Raphael, the vowel pack, you know, all that stuff. Then we would this is think of where we forget. I cannot talk today where we've progressed over the many years. And who would have think we're in narrative right now? Like I've been doing tests and you know this a couple of months ago on LinkedIn, because I think all of us are heavy LinkedIn users, which is good. But, you know, videos. used to give you the highest impressions. Then it was, you know, still pics. Now, you know, it's just straight up narrative. Don't even tag anyone and you're getting higher impressions. It's just such a changing world every minute. And you've really got to be sophisticated or have good partners like ah RGI is. um You've got to have good partners. I think partners are more important than ever in our vertical, especially. That's right. I think LLMs have given anyone who can
Speaker: share experiences and all the things we're talking about a huge leverage. an advantage because what LLMs are actually doing is. and and They're super easy to use, but they're returning. data sets and Like.
Speaker: All this content, all this stuff, but they're not returning experience, culture, context, all the things that we have to do either from our perspective, or our students' perspective, our faculty's perspective, all of this stuff. From the very beginning, um let's just say we're looking at. higher ed marketing for someone who wants to go to school. Like, what does that look like? What does that feel like? What should I expect? How can I visualize it? Whose stories am I listening to? Now you're in school, you know.
Speaker: You're living through it now. What's next? you know And so you can go ask ChatGPT what's next, but to be able to hear stories and share stories and feel culture and feel all the things from us or from storytellers, that's the huge advantage that LLMs don't have. And so I agree. I think that's the huge leverage is to be able to share those experiences and those stories that LLMs couldn't.
Speaker: I'll leave it there. and No, man. Do you mind if I say something to Chris? do you might That's why, you know, at Kaiser, we're leaning in. you know Yeah, that's right. so you're in You're in the Tampa area. Our schools are throughout Florida and for the domestic side. And we're leaning into that lifestyle, the beach.
Speaker: You know, all the things and oh, by the way, we also have the program you have. So we're trying to lean in on the school and not the program and also the geography, more importantly.
Speaker: And that's got to be part of it, to you to your point. And that's that's the experience that kind of stands out. You know, I often think about this as well. So this was and my youngest daughter now is a senior. She's applying to colleges. And so she's getting a bunch of like. She's a null, right? Shit. Not yet. She's she's a yeah she's applying. My eldest is a no. My eldest is no. But when my eldest was looking at schools.
Speaker: One thing that I really appreciated about Tulane University, which is one of the universities she was considering, they were so consistent in their messaging and their experience with, you know, yeah diversity, the French Quarter, like jazz, like they played a lot of that into their marketing, into their messaging, into their ah products, into what they sent out. Not only that, but even when we went and visited it. It was all about community. Like that was. wow we We walked in, they had the jazz band kind of playing as we walked into one of the oldest auditoriums on campus, right?
Speaker: Like. Throughout the entire experience, which kind of goes back to what you're saying, Charlie, I think you guys are seeing that opera opportunity. like What differentiates Kaiser and what are those some some of those experiences that does make Kaiser unique? I would think like that's exactly what Tulane, honestly, I think they did just such a fantastic job with that. that like I was feeling it, man. I was on campus. I was like, this is really, really cool. You can go back to school. Yeah, I wouldn't mind.
Speaker: Speaking of like... All this in zero click. Okay. We've got the experience. down We've got to be sharing that story from. our perspective. But now that we have LLMs like ChatGPT and Clot, I'm just going to name those two. Those are the two biggest used, I would say, from...
Speaker: most people. They're able to now, someone's able to go on. Search up something. A query. And now they've get all these schools listed right now. They get to compare and contrast and do all the things without even having to go to a website. Right. And so.
Speaker: Like, what does that look like and how is that impacting and what do we need to do? And is this experience based stuff that we're sharing on socials and all these other platforms? Is that kind of like. the differentiator, because after they get done with LLMs and comparing, they're kind of like going to TikTok and Instagram and really starting to - Exactly right. It's an ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean.
Speaker: And again, I...
Speaker: we We talk about FOMO fear, you know, enough not FOMO. What is it called when you ah you feel like you're not worthy enough to have something like a job? I can't think of that terminology right now, but it's good to have. Like, I never feel like for me. And i'm I imagine you guys feel like this. I never feel like I'm good at my job. Yeah. And pi always whatever yeah yeah you know what I mean? And so when you're talking about that, that new world we're living in, it's an ecosystem of PR with comms. You've got the social forums, the Reddits. into them and not only with Quora and Substack and testing it out and see how it's doing. I'm advertising on ChatGPT and we've had some pretty good returns early on. It's a little cost effective. You're seeing something there, Charlie? because We've gotten four starts so far. yeah Oh, wow. Yeah. we got yeah you But it's got a little cost prohibitive. yeah Yeah. That's what I'm wondering.
Speaker: Because we've seen some interest. We've seen leads come through, but um we haven't yet seen the kind of down funnel. And there's, I think there's still a lot. A lot of opportunity there from a targeting and stuff that they're continuing to improve and open up.
Speaker: from what I've seen. But that's awesome that you guys are seeing some. But it's an ecosystem, man. This is saying, man, it's it's organic social. And then. Also, it's not, you know, performance marketing doing their thing, ah your organic team doing their thing, your SEO doing their thing and the content like we've really purposely tried to be. And again, we're not experts at that. We're just trying everything because we want to be successful and we're scared we're not. And that's a key, I think, to the people that I work with. And and and you guys probably think the same way. But the better we do with that. And get not content for content's sake.
Speaker: but purposeful content that they feed off each other and bring forth something. Chat TPT, like, should I go to Kaiser? Tell me about this program at Kaiser or comparing us to Nova Southeastern or or whatever it is. You know what I mean?
Speaker: How are we coming up and learning from it? Not getting mad, not buying more banner ads. You know what I mean? But what are we doing to set the narrative? Our challenge is, and we're a big institution, is getting buy -in from other people to do that because we cannot do it alone. I don't want to get gig work for it because I don't feel like they know the culture enough or the vernacular of us enough. It's so important. But that's where I'm challenged at. That's the thing I'm trying to work on is how can I get more people involved with a Substack channel or doing some Reddit articles. And Reddit, you guys know this. Dude, you can get kicked off Reddit so easy because they have so many rules. I'm guilty of grief. Guilty here too. I've been read at jail like three times.
Speaker: but All that stuff matters, but I still don't know where we're going because it keeps like the LinkedIn example I was trying to use. I don't know yet. so i'm So I'm trying to do everything I can. And then I also lean into the consumer side. That was one other thing I'll say, Chris, to what you're talking about is.
Speaker: I've worked with organizations and I'm guilty of this where I breathe in my own exhaust, but I'm not the consumer. and And like when you're nabbing your website, like what is the consumer experience? Not what you think it is or because you are there every day. And I think that goes in that zero click world of how are they searching? Where is that puck going to be? And are you prepared to answer that in an effective manner so that you're first and foremost?
Speaker: If that right makes sense to you, yeah. Totally. That's what we're seeing too. I mean, it it definitely is. like hinged on. The LLM, how you show up, like even we're talking about, and we we talked about the other day, maybe it's like sentiment now. I mean, it's so easy to kind of pull all that in now and like really understand. what people are saying about.
Speaker: your product or your school or whatever it might be versus.
Speaker: The olden days of like... going out to all the websites and seeing all the reviews. And then we're battling with don't go to school. Then we're battling with micro certs. I mean, so, you know, so it's and it's a midterm this year. So then you you do what's that clouding the and muddy in the the traffic way and wait till we get to the general in in another two years. That's going to be something to look at. So it's all that stuff, brother, that it just it doesn't keep me up at night, but it keeps me young at heart, like trying to do this job. yeah Well...
Speaker: It's funny that you say that like Actually, Chris and I were just talking about this earlier today. You know, I think it was Stephen Bartlett interview, the Diary of a CEO guy. He's interviewing somebody, a pretty successful business owner. And like his thing was like.
Speaker: A lot of a lot of. young kids right now are thinking, well, I'm just going to go be an entrepreneur. Right. And I'm just going to skip, you know, school and this and that. But like. He's like,
Speaker: he yeah I think he even says like they're idiots, like like the fact that, ah you know, that's the messaging that like is being pushed out there in what you see on social media today. It's not that easy. Right. And there's no stability. and There's no stability. There's it's not that easy. Like, you know, Chris has been there, done that, you know, and and having a business and growing a business and all of that and being entrepreneur like it's it's it seems like a shiny, you know, great. But.
Speaker: I think there's still the core foundation of education. And this is the reason why we're all in this industry and so on. Like, I'm still a core believer in it. Now, there's a lot of different ways that you can get that education now. Right. on And we've talked a little bit about that, Charlie, as well. Like, you know, I i we.
Speaker: Promoted boot camps at one but ah time when I was at Trilogy and we grew that significant yeah certificate programs, right? Trades, career call, like there's so many different opportunities now. And I think to me, that's the biggest thing. I think that's noisy out there, but I am seeing some somewhat of a shift where. Again. Outside of like a value conversation, like.
Speaker: It's still the value of education is like. It is. And there's a place for everybody. And that's the point of it. yeah But you know what's interesting, Rustem, and I don't know if you guys are dealing with. with some of your clients or or clients that aren't yours yet, I'll just say. But people are quick to slash tuition. with affordability. But they're not changing that's right their expenses.
Speaker: You know what I mean? So some of these schools have a house of cards right now because instead of leaning in from the bottom up. They're trying to do the easy way out and just trying to chop it right there so they can feel like they get a net positive. And that's scary, too. I think you can't just rush to chuck cut tuition. no And you got brand integrity that's involved with that, a reputation, too.
Speaker: There's a lot there. Yeah. I mean. And you know this, Charlie, like in the OPM days when I was on that side. Those days, brother, those days. Yeah, the good old days. You know, we worked but we worked with dozens of ah pretty large institutions and helping them kind of grow their online divisions. And one of the biggest things was. ah tuition. Right. And that was always a part of the conversation. You know, we were looking at ways to be a little more creative than s slashing.
Speaker: costs, because when you slash again, like you said, the operational expenses, like all of those things, they don't go down. In fact, those actually go up year over year, right? Your infrastructure, your operational costs, all of those things, they do not go down. So when you slice that.
Speaker: You've got a system that's built on. Certain metrics and now all of a sudden you're taking away from the top line you're just squeezing margins to the point where - Your ratio's whacked, right? A hundred percent. To the point where there were some, honestly, institutions where I looked at some of the numbers and it was like.
Speaker: It was bleeding. I mean, you. Trustees or boards for like it to some extent to MP groups have not helped at all. I was just going to say that. I think that you see the difference in for profit.
Speaker: Versus not. There with like slashing prices and getting people in the door, those types of things. I mean, we still have trustees on the nonprofit side and we still we have to serve. and And no matter who you are, I don't care who you are. You still have to have sustainable revenue. Now, we're not a public, so we're not subsidized. Right. But then that costs money. But I think what's hard, you know, Kristen Rustem, that and this is my opinion. Over the last several years, we've lost that brand uniqueness of value.
Speaker: Because we are so quick to get the clicks. And now zero clicks are here. We're scrambling now. to do that. Yeah. Right? Yes. You know what I mean? And it's just come full circle on us and really bit some people. Hard.
Speaker: And that's what their deal is, because it is a commodity. I mean, let's say they all say learner class side. If they can say small classes, they do it. State of the art. State of the art. Like we're all saying the same thing pretty much. You know, we're a little bit more unique because our career college roots. But at the end of the day, you can go anywhere and get the program.
Speaker: so to speak. But the difference maker is what happens in the halls, what happens in the human connections, what happens in your outcomes or the partnerships or or whatever that is. That's right. That's where people are longing for, which I think is a better argument for affordability than just being cheap.
Speaker: you know what i mean That's the advantage that. we have when we look at that is to be able to tell that story and share that experience. to as opposed to state of the art. Small class sizes. like Click links. Yeah. That's right. that' quick click right And I.
Speaker: And I guess that's... And that's. Right. And I guess that plays really well into, and i'd I'd love to learn more about this, but obviously you put a lot of thought around narrative management, right?
Speaker: Charlie. And that yeah probably plays in. Yeah. Well, tell us more. Yeah. Well, no, I just, I got sick of hearing in SEO and I'm not saying, I'm sure someone else came up with it, but I mean, this is something I've been using a lot lately and I haven't heard it too much, but you got SEO, you know, got all these EOs, right? Everything out there. And really what it comes down to is managing your external narrative. That's really what I think it all comes down to.
Speaker: And, you know, with AI now, we're building some tools. I'd love to talk about your tools together, too. But we're trying to build tools to give us one central hub. If you're a Star Trek nerd, it's like the Borg. You know, all the Borgs are out there. The signal's coming in and you got this central area. But it's, you know, your reviews matter now more so than ever. you're yell helps Your your Google Maps. You know, all that stuff matters. Niche, you know, grade my grade my instructor. successor yeah on the red yeah all grade but All that kind of stuff.
Speaker: And so that's where I think this technology is really, really cool, because then you can have a central hub to give you supportive information so you can react a little bit quicker. And the signals like we're using Sprout for social. We're also using Hoot for social. SEMrush is a big player for us. So we get those. And then we're also using plugins for everything else that has some sort of narrative transponder that we can get a hold of. But I wouldn't have had that two years ago. So that is kind of cool. Like technology is cool even for. us to use. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. i think All that, like. reviews and sentiment.
Speaker: I mean, people that leave bad reviews usually. tell you the truth well most of them anyway a lot of them and they write really good grammar now too Yeah. Yeah. But like. They're like. Tell it like they're mad and they're telling you exactly what happened. And I mean, that's the perfect like feedback to go. And I mean, like Look, if you get one, okay.
Speaker: But if you get five or 10 of the same things, what can we actually improve on? Where are we actually, you know, lacking? What can we do better? ah they' They're just sour grapes or this job would be great if it wasn't for those students. You know what I mean? It's like yeah react to it, bro. yeah yeah But it also gives you, in my opinion, it gives you things to work with. It gives you.
Speaker: content to write, things to go improve, experiences to go share. Like, what are we doing to make this better? You know, because again. You you have to be. You can't. You can't take all that away, but you can override it and do better moving forward. Can I riff on that for a second? yeah yeah So what I've been like lately, what I've been trying to do, and again, nothing is. perfect for sure and it's all work in progress but at kaiser A high majority, like over 50%, like 60 some odd percent, give or take every every once in a while, are people that didn't complete somewhere else.
Speaker: yeah So we we do first generation. We get initial right right to us for sure. But most of our student base are individuals that went somewhere else and were not successful for whatever reason it is.
Speaker: It's better for me to understand what that is and promote that in narrative form. earlier? and learn from it. then just be happy netting that 60%. I don't know if you get what I mean, but to your point. Yeah, yeah totally. Yes. yeah And I think, look, and I think that's another differentiator, I would say, on your end. which bakes back into that whole experience side.
Speaker: You all have probably. extremely high support services ah to help to tutors, like other things, right? Other support services. that Help.
Speaker: And yeah people over the line, right? That they're able to kind of be a part of a community that's a little probably different than what they were used to before. Well, I'm plugging too much. I don't mean to plug y 'all, but like I And I'll say where I went to school.
Speaker: Where I went to school, I could not see the president.
Speaker: At ours, like Dr. Kaiser picks up, like drives me crazy, but he picks up every phone call. His door is always open. So those are things that you you look at a little bit differently from from the perspective. And that's not disparaging any other school or anything like that. yeah But everybody's got a certain value that has a cost to help you complete what you started. And when you look at tuition, those are the things you have to look at. So everything's apple to apples when you're looking at a public or you're looking at a a nonprofit. it like an eye cuff, right? Or something like that. you You have to equalize it out to understand what you're getting.
Speaker: With that ego aim. Oh, 100 percent. I mean. I remember. You know, we would have we'd have regions where we had support services and team members. Yeah. Point where like we knew different daycare centers for students that needed that support in each of our regions. Like we had a list of support services and resources because.
Speaker: Again, a lot of adult. Students or adult education students are going back to school. They have families. They have other stuff going on in their life. So those support services are are so critical, right? And I think that goes back to, again, All of this to me is, you know, community, right? I think.
Speaker: This plays so big. And I think with. the zero click world and what we're talking about and so on, if you're building that community and you're continuing to push out.
Speaker: content that's relevant to the community, sharing those experiences, engaging organically on Reddit and these other platforms organically on social.
Speaker: All of those things, I think those things are just going to continue to build. and help in the long run. And I think they so like. That's literally where everything is kind of going. And, you know, the yellow pages at Google is going to be a part of that as well. But.
Speaker: I don't know. they'll they'll find their They'll find their place, I'm sure. They're going to find their place. They'll find a way to make. to make the the revenue somehow. I know Gemini, you know, they probably got some pretty big plans with Gemini as well, you know.
Speaker: Well, it's interesting when you compare meta with Google, you know, I've actually had some, I don't know about you guys, but I've had some really good luck with meta. but I can't get what I get from Google. You know what I mean? And yeah yeah you're talking about performance?
Speaker: You're talking about performance? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Performance side, yeah. Yeah, so meta there's still a place for performance there's still a place for performance yeah absolutely Yeah. I would say that you'd be silly not to do performance in this landscape. I mean, because everyone else is. But that mid -funnel, what you learn, which is a Gary Vee thing, is mid -funnel, learn it, then go up to the tip of the spear, the top of the funnel with your paid, and take that what you've learned to get more bang for your buck in conversions.
Speaker: For sure. yeah Yep. Yeah. And the other thing, you know you're going back to meta. so And I'm sure you've seen this, Charlie, as well. like Actually, Chris and I were talking about this.
Speaker: There's a lot of these new agent bots that a lot of these companies are pushing out, right? Everybody. Like dots, right? I'm sure you've seen that. Like OpenAI is pushing out dots. Meta has Muse. Yep.
Speaker: Something I heard this morning. Muse is pretty cool though, man. So I just signed up. I've got Instinct on my phone as well. So I've got Instinct, which is another one that I text with. I haven't tried it yet. Okay. That's pretty cool. I ask it questions on a daily basis. It knows everything about you.
Speaker: Yeah, it probably does actually don't. Yeah. But anyways, one thing I heard this morning, which was really interesting is. trust with some of these companies, right? You think about trust with AI.
Speaker: And this goes back to like, you know, back in the day, we didn't even want to purchase online, right? We were scared to put our credit card in online. Now we're at a point where now with AI, like how much of our information do we want to give AI? Do we have separate folders where we're sharing with Claude and not our entire hard drive? And the trust. factor is so interesting. I heard this morning that.
Speaker: These companies. the AI companies are creating these. Cute mascots? The dots? Meta has Muse, Cloudbot, right?
Speaker: to create a level of trust. With the community. if you got this soft worry If you've got this soft furry agent. Yeah, you've got this soft furry agent that's got this fuzzy, you know, yellow face and smiling at you all the time. You're probably going to give it a little bit more information.
Speaker: Do you remember Word Perfect, the clippy? Yeah, so here he totally month he actually mentioned that on the podcast. they mentioned Yeah, they mentioned Clippy. Yes. It's coming back. We we trusted Clippy with everything, right? Clippy was my guy.
Speaker: I understand. that's ah But that's how they're overcoming some of this fear is they're trying to make it a little more trusting with these mascots. Think if you're a CIO. At a system. You're losing your brain because you're mar you you need it. But you can't close it.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, think if you're in IT too, it's just like, okay, my gosh, we could be giving everything that I know. It's just crazy. Damn Clippy. It's a hard one to unpack because like.
Speaker: Even if you think about... you know, meta or. Facebook. You know, there was a day when you kind of had to like search for something and then all of a sudden now you start seeing ads. Right. And then it kind of progressed into, I would just say something in my living room and all of a sudden I'm seeing ads, you know, and now it's like, I'm thinking something and I see ads. I don't have to say anything. I'm just thinking it. And it's like pads, you know, scary.
Speaker: Yeah, right. It is scary. But I i say all that to say like. Man, like, what do we really, I don't know, what do we really have to lose with LLMs? Doesn't everything already know everything about us anyway? I mean, if we're just thinking. It's not going to go away. I mean, it definitely isn't. and and It's another revolution industrial wise. But think about DM, Chris. Is DM going to come back more? to hear Like, it's interesting to go to some old school tactics to see if they come back. And I mean, total boost them you did a post.
Speaker: I think about when your daughter was looking and the collateral pieces you were getting. I remember your post that was a month. I don't know when it was. opening The bla blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Or when she got it or when she got the handwritten note, she got a handwritten note from Michigan, which was really, really cool. um But then and it was from a student.
Speaker: that said, hey, if you need if you have it any questions, you know reach out. I'm a current student or whatever. That was awesome. It's powerful. But yeah, my youngest, cause they're both, my, my eldest is looking at grad school. My youngest is looking to go to get our bachelors. And so, but my youngest got that one from McAllister. I think you saw that Charlie, where it said in the envelope, in the little window, it said, uh, dear. ha aboutbi Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and You're going to love because blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like.
Speaker: My wife and I opened that up, and honestly...
Speaker: We looked at the school. It's ah it's a really good school, actually. and ah It was just so impressive, but it stood out. Like that was the one. Well, think about the open rates on there. Yeah. I mean, we were trying to do oversized. They thought about it. So you'd want to open it, you know, and these guys throw a blah, blah, blah. And you guys are ripping into that baby. It's just so crazy though, because everything that we're talking about, like you said, Charlie, we're going back full circle. This is all human based interaction type of stuff that we were doing 30 years ago. You know, it's true. I'm watching that, man. i I mean, I'm not trying to be old school. Like I roboted from a Will Smith. yeah And he was still rocking the Chucks and the motorcycle. But there's some part of me that feels like don't don't jump in the deep end just yet. Let's let's be aware and do your thing with narrative. That's right. Still watch this and make sure you're there because you never know, bro. Valpax may be back.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, yeah I'm just joking. Those buck slips keep me up at night. Yeah, cautiously optimistic, right, with where some of this stuff is going. Yeah, agreed. yeah Well, Charlie, i i I think one thing that.
Speaker: I'd be curious just in general, because you've obviously had an extensive kind of career. And I like to ask this question because, you know, there's definitely people who listen to the podcast that, you know, are just getting into kind of a career in education or marketing and so on. like
Speaker: What are a couple of things like. that you would say that have allowed you to kind of grow and and continue to evolve yeah in your marketing experience and your growth personally in higher ed, in marketing. Do you have any kind of tips or advice for you know people listening that would love to be a CMO of ah of an amazing institution one day?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean it's a really good question. I've never... Like even with the podcast, I don't know, but I've never been purposeful. I just kind of gravitate. I can't remember who says this, but.
Speaker: You know, that your passion follows your skill set in or something like that. I feel like I was really fortunate enough to find something that I was really passionate about and then my skill set matched it. But I didn't match my passion with my skill set.
Speaker: I'd also say in education. i am And I would say every vertical. I'd love to get your guys' a thought on this. But when you were talking, I was thinking about, I feel like I'm better at.
Speaker: approaching brand and marketing because of the experience I had on the sales side. And working backwards, kind of reverse engineering what I wanted to call or what I learned how to be more relevant in engagement or something like that has helped me.
Speaker: The other thing too is I don't think I'm good. I mean, I mean, that's like it maybe it sounds like an ego statement, but I've always felt like when I got this job, it's the biggest it's the biggest marketing, so to speak, job I've had budget wise or anything like that. Just we're a big system and I feel ill equipped all the time. So I'm always trying to be a student of the game. I've never once took myself for granted or or had anything like that. And it's not an ego statement. I think it's more because. um
Speaker: i Just have always been brought up like that like just to Just kind of work into it kind of thing. yeah i don't that make sense do I hope doesn't come across wrong to anybody out there because I don't mean it to be. yeah You've been consistent with that, Charlie, even from honestly, I think even from some of our first conversations, I remember when we when we met.
Speaker: you know I think you have a humble nature to you. And again, I don't know if that was your upbringing or your parents or what it was, but I think like. you know, a lot of people who have been successful who have grown.
Speaker: realize that There's always they're always and I like to say we're always in beta. We're always, yeah being we we're never at that level, you know? And so when you can kind of.
Speaker: realize that and and have that perspective, then you're always learning. You're always pushing yourself. you're You know, I think you go back to like. I don't know what I don't know is the biggest part of, uh, you know, of, of a pie. What I, what I know that I don't know is also as tiny sliver. When I know what I know is like.
Speaker: It's nothing. It's like 0 .0001 % of the knowledge in the world, right? So when you put it in perspective, like we really are pretty ignorant about most things in life. And being inquisitive, right? We're always learning.
Speaker: Always learning Ted Lasso. You know, I love Ted Lasso. I love me some Ted Lasso. But in the first season is that dart scene. And he says in there, you know, do not be judgmental.
Speaker: Right? You can't be judgmental, but you need to be inquisitive. It's not the word. yeah I was trying to think. It is the word inquisitive. What is it? ah Be curious. Don't be judgmental, but be curious. And I think in the world we're in, in marketing, because everybody thinks they're a marketer too.
Speaker: Especially now they all scroll. They're all consumers. So everybody knows how to do this better than you do. yeah I had an old boss too, Rustem, that i I've never forgotten when he said this and it's helped me along my way. And he said, when you work for someone.
Speaker: If you change your style, like who you are innately because of how that person leads you or manages you, it's not a good place for you. So I've been really fortunate to work with individuals that fit me.
Speaker: and allowed me to even grow, right? And they didn't try to change me. But I can say I've had some bosses where my character changed a little bit, i would maybe a little bit more rougher, or I adopted their things or whatever it is. And I would say I've been super fortunate to work with some really, really, really good leaders and mentors. so Yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome, Charlie. well I think, you know, that's an awesome place to kind of end this, you know, appreciate that little last nugget and mic drop at the end. That's that's very a ton of value. You know, I i absolutely agree. like
Speaker: you know, you've got to constantly be, but we all are, we will never kind of get to that place where we know enough. So appreciate that. Charlie, thanks for coming on the pod, joining us. thank you You guys are awesome, man. Yeah, we loved it. We enjoyed it. Thanks so much. And, you know, for everybody, we'll catch you guys next week. So that's all for this episode of ROI University, where the biggest ah ROI is personal.
Speaker: Alright.
