Transcript
Speaker: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Predetermined at Pro Wrestling Hangout. I'm Chris with Fax. Yep. I'm here on Fax.
Speaker: Uh, we don't have Garrett tonight. Um, and, uh, so we'll be doing this, uh, just the two of us. We actually Garrett and I recorded an episode on Monday night. Um, that'll be in the feed in the not too distant future. Um, the issue of course, being that on Tuesday night, uh, Jamie and Pew Jay Briscoe passed away and we, uh, the episode we recorded on Monday is not reflective of the mood of, uh, ourselves or the wrestling world right now. So.
Speaker: Uh, Max and I wanted to sort of talk about this a little bit and kind of get those feelings out. It's been hitting us kind of hard. It, we, um, always say like, you know, our old podcast was really sort of a getting about the emotional connection to professional wrestling. And, um, we're feeling pretty emotionally connected to this one. So we just wanted to kind of.
Speaker: Talk about it and process it and pay tribute in our own way. Yeah. Likewise, with the next episode, when you listen to it, Chris and Garrett did not know what was going to happen shortly thereafter. Hey, if you're listening to this in the feed months down the road and you're looking for Vince penis hole jokes,
Speaker: Maybe skip this episode. This is, you know, we're going to be talking about it because I'm not feeling great, Chris. I'm not going to lie. I told you guys, you know, we, you know, me, you, Garrett, Derek, we all have kind of a long running permanent text thread, right? And I actually I'd been out of town on vacation and last night, like I'm so tired after my first day back at work and I like shut off all of my equipment. I went to bed early. And then when I woke up today,
Speaker: This is Wednesday when we record I didn't look at anything. I immediately just like
Speaker: It took a shower and kind of got right to work. So I actually didn't see the news until I was on the lunch break from work. And then I got all of the news like I didn't get it in chunks like I got I literally was past. You know, I was I was eating my lunch. I was going through, you know, my news feed and I saw something about a briscoe dying in like the wrestling news. And I honestly thought it was going to be like
Speaker: Jerry Briscoe generation kind of thing. And I kind of thought like I clicked it open and I'm like, oh, holy shit. And then as soon as I get more details and I see that I've like 68 unread messages, it just was like, oh, oh, oh. And like I actually told my boss, I'm like, I actually think I need the rest of the day off. I don't think I can go back to work. I I cried, Chris. I. You know, we've unfortunately been through a lot of wrestler deaths.
Speaker: But this one hit really, really close. We'll get into it more, but obviously you and I have quite a relationship with the Briscoes. And reading, he was gone. Two of his daughters were in critical condition.
Speaker: Uh, needed surgery to, to save her chance at being able to walk again. It's just on all these levels, particularly as, as, you know, listeners, the podcast, no, like we get interacted with the Briscoe family at the reason hog show, which according to cage match, which I assume was, was, was cheese last match, which we were there in the house for. Um, how are you doing?
Speaker: I told you, cause I told you, I was like, well, facts, I don't think I'd be working today if I hadn't had about three hours. Just kind of sitting like a zombie last night. I actually, I, I got the night got a text from Garrett and it was the Tony con tweet, which is, I guess that was the sort of weird thing is that initially is that there were, you know, there were so few details, but like it came from Tony con. This wasn't, this wasn't a lie. And so there was that.
Speaker: just feeling very numb and just spending literally probably about three hours just kind of sitting, staring, trying to understand. It was kind of a weird feeling because I think sometimes when anyone passes a wrestler or anyone else, sometimes it's kind of easy to
Speaker: kind of feel exactly quickly, like, okay, this feels like a loss because of X. And it kind of took me a while to sort of unpack within myself, kind of like, there's kind of like, it felt a little hollow. In parts of my brain, the first thing went to like, fuck, like we will never get to see this guy wrestle again, which is in some ways the least of it. But it's not just that, and it's so many things kind of coming together where you realize it's,
Speaker: It's that on top of the role he played as a wrestler, I think, in our journeys, his fans. It's as a guy who's like eight months older than he was, who also has kids. There's a bit of that, right? We're just like, fuck, fuck.
Speaker: Um, and just, yeah, just that feeling of like, I, I, there's a lot kind of swirling, you know? And, and I think two like kind of related things are like, it's so unexpected because like not for nothing, we've been desensitized to wrestling deaths where a lot of them are like, Oh, was it drugs? It was drugs, wasn't it? Right. If it's like, Hey, if Jimmy Havoc was the one that had shown up on my feet is dead, I probably would have been like, Oh, you know,
Speaker: Yep, that checks out, you know, and I don't actually know if Jimmy Havoc does drugs or something like that, but like wouldn't surprise me. But generation, right. I think about the people he came up with. Right. And like, you know, Tran acid is gone, but Tran acid had died from drugs. And there were the guys who had a lot of death match who, you know, we lost to, frankly, probably to like the emotional trauma from head injuries and a lot of, you know, I mean, like, yeah, I mean, I think they're all those things are interlinked, but you don't you don't think of
Speaker: Jay Briscoe is one of those guys, right? You think of him as he was a family man. Like, yeah, he'd go out and you know what? I was going to do a seltzer, but I'm going to crack open a PBR because that's of what was in my fridge that felt like the Briscoe is drink I had. But he legitimately and we know this for a fact was a family man. Like we talked about it on this podcast. We kind of poked some jokes at it, but it was it was a joke that came out of love because we knew it was real.
Speaker: and you see these videos of him
Speaker: doing cheer routines with his daughter during the lockout that was on the ROH feed, even though he himself was not a social media guy. And like, no, he really was this kind of humble family man chicken farmer that just happened to also be a virtuoso wrestler with his brother. And I think that those things combined were like, you don't expect anyone to die at 38 years old, but like, you really didn't feel like this guy.
Speaker: was going to be one of the like, if you had if you had told me one of the wrestlers you love is going to die this week, he would have been one of the last people I would I would have guessed.
Speaker: And of course, because it was this sudden violent thing. And then that ties together with the fact that you don't think it's him is because he's such a family man. And then you find out about the daughters in the accident as well. And that's where I think it really, it really, really, really hurts. You know, and you think about, you know, we saw the Briscoe family, we saw Mark's kids, right? And you're like, they lost their uncle. Their, their cousins are in the hospital right now. Like,
Speaker: The damage to the Pew family is just...
Speaker: insurmountable, you know, almost insurmountable. They were just so very, again, and, and ultimately, and it's our interactions, you've interacted with them too. And let's just tell this story, great story about you meeting Jay a bunch of years ago, but like, they just, there's just like a kind of a basic kindness, you know what I mean? And it's kind of, it's interesting in that, like, you know, I don't know how much we would have talked about, if we probably would have talked about our kids, right? If I had a conversation with Jay Bristol, but like, just like this ultimate kindness where it seemed to cut across
Speaker: like boundaries and cut across.
Speaker: Like it seemed like what he loved in this world was like his family and wrestling and it sort of felt like, and it seemed in the tributes and, and again, just the way we were sort of responding, it's like. What I mean, we're all, aren't we all the same, you know, kind of thing feeling like really connected to that spirit that he had of like these, like, this is what I love, you know, and we're like, yeah, we, we get it and we love it too. I mean, yeah, I mean, we're just can't.
Speaker: Like, oh, like this is how impactful it was, literally. So I just was at my, you know, I work from home, but I'm at my desk at work. I'm just kind of processing, processing. I finished my lunch while I'm like reading all this coverage and telling people at work, like, I'm going to need a minute here. Like, I don't know. Maybe I'll be online later today, but don't bank on it. And like then I went for a long walk to try to clear my head. But of course, I can't think about anything else.
Speaker: And I come back and I just like, well, what am I going to do? I kind of, you know, I just like cuddled with my cats because I just needed to do something to feel better. And I kind of started reading a little bit more.
Speaker: And like hours had passed and I had probably thousands of different thoughts on the topic. It passed through my head before I read something probably on Twitter, maybe somewhere else that it was just like the Briscoes who are 28 days into their 13th title reign. I had forgotten that they were the current champions. It just wasn't important, right? It just wasn't an important detail to remember.
Speaker: But I'm like and I saw people on like Instagram on because because AEW had just posted something like like right around the same time the news broke about the next ROH pay -per -view in L .A. in WrestleMania weekend. And people are all like, what are they going to do with the belts? And I'm like, what? Who the fuck cares about what they're doing with these ROH belts right now?
Speaker: You know, and, and I did, uh, I did watch retire him on us or just get, I mean, honestly, just name them after the briskos. Honestly. I mean, what else? You know, yeah. Change the Crockett cup to be the Brisco cup.
Speaker: But it's going to be, you know, we'll talk about on later potty as it's going to be weird. Like what do you do with like, I would love to see Brisk, Mark Briscoe against Claudio for that title, but like we can talk about that later. That's not important. Um, what they do is not important. Uh, I'm sure it sucks from a business angle that the Briscoe is we're going to be the biggest stars on the new ROH show. They want to start, but.
Speaker: You know, even Tony Khan will tell you that's not the most important thing right now. You know, but that is, there's the one thing in there that I, that I did think about that it's, it's sort of so hard to connect is that like thinking about seeing Mark Bresco wrestle again, again, it came like what they did came from such a place of joy and, and like happiness to be doing what they did, that it does feel like I don't, again, down the road, but it's hard to imagine.
Speaker: I mean, even when they both had really good singles runs in ROH, right? Like Jay was two time world champion. Mark was a TV champion. And like, I believe there was a time if memory serves. I think that card where it was the.
Speaker: Jay Briscoe against Jay lethal for the world title. I think that was a final battle. I believe Mark Briscoe was TV champion at the same time. Jay was world champion. Right. And that that show, that final battle, that was I think the best of the best in the world. Oh, best in the world. OK. I was going to say I was the first our way to Jay Briscoe versus red. He's the first match on that show.
Speaker: Yep. And I come again, I hadn't written to an ROH show. I'd been kind of on and off with wrestling when you kind of took me in your sort of journey with ROH and who's main eventing a show back up to ROH and who's the, got the world title. It's Jay Brisco. Right. And of course it makes total, total fucking sense that, you know, Jay Brisco is the guy who's there. And I think that's kind of a part of the thing that I think.
Speaker: connects is that he's really part of our journeys as wrestling fans, as ROH fans, which is really our wages. A lot of our journey is wrestling fans that, um, like I think of it is, you know, he, again, he and I turned 18 less than a year apart. That's really, when I think about that time in the indie scene and that time, that's really kind of what ignited my, I feel like my adult wrestling fandom, right? So his career.
Speaker: like overlaps exactly right with that's when they debuted and so his career it's like it's the same thing like it's the arc of like my life and arrest as a wrestling fan my adult life is tied like it's it's all connected and they've been amazing for all of it you know wrestling fan from the northeast obviously you know a little further south than where you and I grew up
Speaker: Chicken Farm are a little bit different than the scenarios you and I grew up in. But there's a lot of that DNA that's the same, right? And he did it. We thought about it. He did it.
Speaker: And and yeah, and I just do want to close one note is like, I think I don't think it's going to hurt to see Mark Briscoe wrestle without his brother. I think that it would hurt if it was tonight, but it won't. And and I love Mark Briscoe and I'm going to love to see him out there.
Speaker: And I'm fine if he has a great career, he's going to be in stables. He can be. But I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want to see Mark Brisco in a tag team match with anyone else. Yeah. Unless one of their children, you know, many years from now, one of their children is ready to step in the ring. Yeah. And then, OK, I'll allow it. But I don't like that is something that I just is going to be really would be really hard to swallow. But
Speaker: Again, now it's just it's thinking through and this is why I think it's been so devastating. And it's this type of thing that we're not working through is I very much very quickly started making my piece. I know we joke around on this podcast. You know, I say that my social media is Jimmy Lloyd's IMDB. My actual my actual one is Jimmy facts. You can find me on Instagram. I posted, you know, that story. We've talked about it on this podcast. I've talked about it on our previous podcast, the best there was you can read about it there. But like
Speaker: These great interactions and like I definitely got that of like celebrating Jay Briscoe and remembering Jay Briscoe and all remember the good things. But that's where then I snapped back because as soon as I start remembering going, well, you know what? He's going to have there's going to be a legend, right? And his children are going to grow up hearing about the legend of their father and rightfully so. But but then you go back and you think about the daughters right now. And that's where it just brings back no shit. Fuck.
Speaker: You know, they're dealing with this right now. And it's just. It's awful. Like I I've actually been thinking of death wrestling a lot lately. I just started reading while I was on vacation, I started reading the Eddie Guerrero biography. I think it's called Cheating Life, Stealing Death, an ironic title. And he wrote it and it came out shortly before he died. And literally, I have the paperback edition and that has a forward by Vince McMahon.
Speaker: who acknowledges Eddie died recently when the paperback had come out.
Speaker: And of course that hangs over everything. He's talking about meeting Vicki Guerrero. And you're like, yeah, I know. We all know about Vicki. There's generations of wrestling fans that know Vicki. They don't really know you, maybe, Eddie. And of course he talks about his father. You know his father's going to be dead early on. It's like, I never knew Corey Guerrero. Obviously he died a long time ago. And then he talks about meeting Chris Benoit. And none of the Benoit stuff had happened. And there's just all of this death, death, death, death, death. And you think about it.
Speaker: And so it's kind of been on my mind in a weird way. But yet I still was so because obviously Eddie had his demons right with with painkillers and with alcohol. Jay Jay, I mean, I took I've never heard of anything like that. Like he could be one of the boys got for a drink, but I've never heard about abuse of alcohol or drugs. And then Benoit, obviously.
Speaker: That's a whole other topic and I don't want to get it even darker than it is but it's like it's this weird dichotomy that I'm thinking about the darkest corners of wrestling.
Speaker: And then I think about the brisket was how much joy that they're really the light and the fact that they've had, I would say them and FTR had unequivocally, right? The best series of tag matches. You can nitpick if one of those it like the dog collar is the one I would, is the greatest tag match ever. But two out of those three at least are easily top 10 of all time. And there's never been a three match series in tag team wrestling like that ever.
Speaker: And they're getting all of these new fans, and it's just... Yeah, there does, again, it's not the most important. It does feel like, I mean, from an art perspective, like, they were making a lot of wonderful art right now, like, a month ago. Like, was maybe one of their greatest matches, and they were, you know... Frankly, you could have sold me on FTR Briscoes at literally every ROH pay -per -view forever, and I would have paid $40 for it at that point.
Speaker: And even that very last match that you and I were in attendance were, and your daughter, who we asked with the Risko children, we were there, House of Glory, and it was this amazing story that there were stuff for kids, there were stuff for hardcore wrestling enthusiasts. There were this, again, the storytelling you're saying with that intentionally giving up a fall so they could get to the, it was just brilliant.
Speaker: Right. And it was interesting because like, you know, we obviously talked many hours ago that we were going to do probably record something tonight just to talk about it. And so my head starts gravitating towards, well, outside of this most recent stuff, like what would I recommend for somebody who maybe isn't familiar with the full of war of Jay Briscoe's work? And it's like, man, I can't. There's just too much. And there's so many different eras and there's just so much that's so good.
Speaker: That just, you know, like if you're somebody that that only knows Jay Briscoe from the last couple of years. Just go down a YouTube hole, you know, when when R .O .H. Honor Club comes back and there's a pun, by the way, on the R .O .H. YouTube feed, like just go to Briscoe's full match, Briscoe Brothers full match, Jay Briscoe full match. There's hours of it and just it's none of it's bad, right? There is no
Speaker: We were talking about a month ago about how there was an era where the Briscoes weren't as exciting anymore, just because they had gone against everyone a million times. But there was never an era that they weren't great. Yeah. I mean, in his career, you could probably find at least one exceptional match per year. And in some years, there's many more.
Speaker: As I was thinking about two that I mean, one thing I would recommend if you if you've never gone back and seen them to go to watch at least one of the early matches with him against his brother and just like the sort of explosion of energy where, you know, like I don't know where these two kids are going. Like they've got a future if they've got a future. But this is something different, you know, and.
Speaker: And I would say generally from anything from like, let's say like 2016 on, I would just say go after the big names because when they're going against another big team or he's going against somebody, another big name, you know, singles match.
Speaker: They bring it every single time you go like I remember us even talking about like, oh, them and the girl is a destiny. Do we think that's going to be good? And mostly because we weren't totally sure if the girl is quite frankly could hold up. And those matches are excellent. Right. Them and the young ones. Excellent. Right. Every young match as we joke about how many they had. They're all great. Just pick any one of them. All great. So Cal uncensored. Great. Obviously, the FTR matches. Great.
Speaker: I was thinking about the ones like Brody King and PCO. Like I just loved like the way all of those guys I'm supposed to be reading Brody's tribute to him last night. But like the reckless abandon those all those guys all had against each other. Them against Steen and Generico. Right. Oh, yeah. Go all the way back. Top, top guys. Right. Steen and Generico were the top guys in ROH. I mean.
Speaker: Well, and they, I mean, Steen's, uh, Owens, Kevin Owens, for those things, like his talks about like, basically he's like, we were kind of nobody at the start and they kind of helped make us. One of the things I kind of took away from reading the tributes was like, how? Like those matches were a joy to watch, but they also seemed like everyone was like, yeah, they were joy to do. It was a joy to work with them.
Speaker: Yeah. Kind of thought one of the parallels that I kind of drew, I was thinking about was like Bobby Eaton in a weird way. And that sounds like kind of maybe an odd comparison, but the idea being that like both of those guys, obviously through the greatest tag team wrestlers ever.
Speaker: everyone seemed to love being around them and working with them. And they kind of told their best stories in the ring. Like, you know, Jay Briscoe cut a much stronger promo than Bobby Eaton could. But when I think about Jay Briscoe, I don't I don't think about the promos. Really, I think about like how if I knew I was going to get to see the Briscoes wrestle that night, there was a 100 percent chance it was going to be good and a really good chance it was going to be special and memorable.
Speaker: You know, that like, that's where it's like, ultimately it's just this like body of artwork in the same way that I feel like kind of like Bobby left behind. Right. Luckily older in that guard, but, um, that you're just like, you go back and you're just like, what should I do? What do I need to understand about it? And it's like, just watch the matches. It's all there. Like their whole, like.
Speaker: everything's like poured into that you know that's the thing they gave everything for it and again that's that's why the FTR matches in some ways such a perfect like summation in a lot of ways because like both of all those guys poured so much into that and you're just like you watch that you're like i can't believe these guys have given so much to it you know and i think anyone with fight plus should if they haven't seen us check out that hog match the last match because it's remarkable that that's like a week later
Speaker: And they still go hard and they do so many different things and they're going against this, this very different team, right? The main event or a fun team that they're not FTR, but it was so great in such a different way. And I think that, and also like, like Bobby Eaton, I think they never heard anybody, right? Like that's remarkable when you look how bloody and battered they are and their opponents are after so many of these matches.
Speaker: And you never really heard about like major injuries or things like that beyond like normal things that happen, right? If anything, they would get hurt at the other end. And I even think about one of my first times, you know, before I'd gotten kind of fully regular into ROH, I would
Speaker: Check -in now and then when I was kind of with with fans that were kind of still hardcore into it during my like off period and I remember even the first time I had Like the first time that really like burned into my brain like I know these guys I will never forget these guys was when the brisket was tagged with their father again, Claudio Chris hero the kings of wrestling and their manager whose name is escaping me and
Speaker: Um, it doesn't matter. Um, and like, Hey, was that like a, like a five star classic? Probably not. Um, I, I haven't seen it recently, but like, I just remember being blown away with. This is so cool. And this is such an interesting match. And like, of course that's not going to stand up to the dog collar match against FDR, but
Speaker: It's they have had like, I think, especially like people that are more recently into the brisket was even over the last five years made of a certain perception, which isn't wrong.
Speaker: that I wouldn't call them like a hardcore team, they're certainly not a deathmatch team to that level, but they basically have elevated and perfected and like perfected over 20 years the like WWE attitude era brawler main event style. Like they just continued doing those matches that like Triple H and Steve Austin and The Undertaker and The Rock and Mankind were having from like 98 to 2003 or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah. And they just got way, way better at them. And that's fair. But they also could. There's almost nothing that those guys can't do, right? They go off the top. They could do mucha libre stuff. And even on the go with the Bucks, you know what I mean? You look those Bucks most like the one I always think about the Bucks is final battle. I think it's 2016.
Speaker: Um, cause that was one of the first ones I remember being there and being like, Oh, Hey, the like, I think the bucks are amazing, but part of it was also going like, Oh yeah. The Briscoes are yeah. Like the two, the two of them together. And I can still, I can still sort of in my mind's eye, like see us like sitting on the upper level at the hammer side and seeing them like.
Speaker: The Briscoe is like telling the Bucks to throw super kicks at them and the Bucks just throwing them over and over again. And just like the peak that they were able to build that to. And I like, again, it's all of these. Yeah, it's like it's like he left all of these like indelible wrestling memories with us. Like I can still see like where I was and how I was feeling when I saw Jay Briscoe do all these things, you know.
Speaker: No, I'm I'm I'm totally I'm totally with you. And and yeah, I think I don't know as as trying to I guess kind of wrap it up a little bit. I guess what I kind of take away is that like we've got all these indelible memories of Jay Briscoe and is it's great that we have them.
Speaker: I'm really sad we're not gonna get to make any more, I think, which it's a little, I think my, one of the hardest things I think I processed through last night, or maybe I'm still processing through, is sort of like that my initial feeling felt a little selfish. No, that, oh, we won't get to see him wrestle anymore.
Speaker: I guess though, it again, it kind of comes full circle in the sense of like, he doesn't get to wrestle anymore and he doesn't get to wrestle with his brother anymore. And the people who made art with him, like, you know, so much of him like poured out into wrestling that like, we're all feeling kind of a version of that. Like it's like.
Speaker: A family lost someone and we're sad about that. And he made so much so much wonderful that again, he won't get to make anymore. And it all kind of adds up to just a no, just a really sad feeling. Yeah. And I just hope the family recovers. And I don't mean just Mark's wrestling career. Right. I hope I hope the family recovers. I hope.
Speaker: I hope obviously the daughters can make as close to a full recovery as possible. You know, it's gonna hurt for a long time. And it's gonna hurt them a lot longer and a lot harder than it's gonna hurt us. Jay Briscoe is one of our guys though, right? He's one that we do feel that kind of personal connection to. He was one of those guys that
Speaker: I would say, Hey, I wonder if he's going to notice me at the wrestling show. I wonder if he's going to remember me from this time or that time. Um, as, as Mrs. Mark said, um, we're not strangers and Mark Biscoe's wife. That's true. They, they were, you know, they were friends of the family.
Speaker: And we were friends. We all were. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of an all in a Broadway. We were all kind of friends of the family. And so we're all feeling a little, you know, torn up for the family and for the extended wrestling family kind of again, kind of all collectively they treated. They treated.
Speaker: their family very well and they treated the wrestling family as kind of part of that. And so we're all feeling, you know, a version of that sadness that we, again, we understand is so much deeper for those, those most closer to him. So.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, we just have to write some new material now, right? That one of our top characters we can't go back to anytime soon. And with Moxley potentially going on vacation, it's going to be all Beastman for a while. So you'll buckle up. Oh, Vince, too. We got Vince.
Speaker: We'll do our best. We'll do our we'll do our best. And, you know, there's some Vince on that episode you'll hear in a couple of days. And and I don't know, maybe don't worry in in, you know, when we when we record the next non emergency episode.
Speaker: Maybe we'll be back to our old selves. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. Yeah, I don't. I suppose I'm not. It's one of those as we're in it. It's like I don't I don't quite know how long this is going to last. I'm actually, you know, I'm curious when I can even people talk about watching matches. I haven't.
Speaker: I don't know. I haven't been able to do it yet. I've been feeling kind of like it was going to make me too sad. When I had a little bit of time today, I watched a hockey game over Dynamite, and then I did watch some of Dynamite.
Speaker: I don't think I could watch a Jay Briscoe match right now. It's not going to be like Benoit, where I've been watching it for a long time. I think we'll have a really great celebration of him at some point. And maybe that'll be the new honor club relaunch, right? We'll have a great celebration of Jay Briscoe. But I think we need a little bit of time for everybody to heal before we can do that.
Speaker: Um, and, and we hope this episode in some way, um, if you're listening out there, help helped you. And I'll process some of these feelings too. Yeah, we're there with you. And, uh, again, you, you know, our social media is predetermined podcast. I'm Jimmy facts. You are the MiGs. Um, yeah, reach out. We'll, we'll talk about it. Reach for the sky. Reach for the sky boys.
