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Considering the flip side with Johanna Rhodes
25 Plays2 months ago
Johanna is a Nurse Advisor Education at the Nursing Council of New Zealand. She is a nurse who is passionate about nursing regulation, education & engaging learning through simulation.
Johanna shares her PhD work explores the other side of the coin and questions how healthcare educators are impacted by assuming simulated patient roles.
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Transcript
Intro
Introductions
00:00:40
Melanie Barlow
Welcome to Simulation Happy Hour. I'm Jane Frost.
00:00:44
Jenny
I'm Jenny Bassett.
00:00:46
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
and I'm Kerry Reid-Searle.
Highlight on Psychological Safety
00:00:48
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Today i'd like to introduce Joanna Rhodes. Joanna is from New Zealand and I think her work is something that's going to be very keenly sought in terms of the listeners and understanding psychological safety around simulation and the importance of de-rolling.
00:01:04
Johanna Rhodes
you
00:01:09
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
yeah Oh, debriefing, sorry.
Jo's Unique Approach
00:01:11
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
i I had the privilege of meeting Jo many years ago New Zealand when I was doing some MASK ED work and Jo was very enthusiastic. In fact, we had dinner and I challenged her to go to dinner in her pyjamas and thinking that she thought that I might turn up in my pyjamas too, but no, Jo turned up in her pyjamas while I was finally dressed.
00:01:35
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So, Jo, over to you. Totally not associated with this discussion, but look, Jo, I'd like to again welcome you and and tell us a little bit about your research, Jo.
00:01:51
Johanna Rhodes
Thank you, Kerry.
Research on Emotional Challenges in Simulation
00:01:53
Johanna Rhodes
Well, most people think that simulation is all about the learners, but I wanted to understand about the people who actually run the simulations.
00:02:01
Johanna Rhodes
So my research explored the experiences of healthcare educators who assume simulated patient roles through multiple different modalities of simulation.
00:02:12
Johanna Rhodes
Much of the literature that I reviewed had asked all about student experiences and the learning experiences, but there was really nothing about the educators' experiences, the emotional, the psychological and the professional challenges that they may navigate.
00:02:29
Johanna Rhodes
This led me to develop the theory of coexistence, which basically captured how educators balance two overlapping motivations, on one hand their altruistic desire to support student learning,
00:02:42
Johanna Rhodes
and their own e egoistic need to protect their wellbeing. Immersing themselves in this role was was found to be very rewarding, but also very taxing. And my research highlighted how institutions and colleagues can support these unsung heroes in simulation education.
00:03:01
Johanna Rhodes
You could say education is like superheroes and humans at the same time. They need recognition and space to recharge.
00:03:10
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Wow.
The Need for Educator Debriefing
00:03:12
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So in essence, I guess what you're saying, Jo, in all of this work that you found that we spend a lot of time debriefing learners and those educators that come in playing when we talk about simulated patient roles, I'm understanding that that could be someone who's just doing role play with them disguised as somebody else, ah ah commonly masked ed, or could even be the person talking through
00:03:22
Johanna Rhodes
Yes.
00:03:39
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
the the simulator. And in essence, we finish the debrief session or we finish the session, we debrief the students and there you are as an educator thinking, oh my gosh, I wonder how that went.
00:03:51
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Or if something really impacted on us, who's there to unpack what has actually happened for us? And I certainly know from my work in Mask-Ed where we invest so much of our ourselves in those simulations,
00:04:08
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
there is a huge risk because part of the character to design has come from perhaps personal experiences, people that you care about, and then when things go belly up in that simulation, you walk away from the classroom, students are beautifully debriefed, but what about us?
00:04:25
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So Jo, my question next is what unique challenges do you think simulation educators face?
Complexities of Role-Playing
00:04:32
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
when role or, you know, as you know, when in role and as they de-roll out of that particular role.
00:04:40
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah, Kerry, you've hit the nail on the head. Stepping into that role can be incredibly complex and educators have the feel the sense of responsibility to be fully authentic and make it realistic for the learner, which means accessing their own emotions, their own reactions and even physical behaviours outside of their comfort zone.
00:05:01
Johanna Rhodes
And it's not just acting, there's a professional responsibility that underpins that in that accurate representation of clinical settings. And then the derolling, which you mentioned, part of that debrief, that just simply doesn't happen.
00:05:16
Johanna Rhodes
The person takes off their mask or takes off their mule large or turns the mannequin off and it's just meant to end. but But it's not as simple as just taking off a hat.
00:05:27
Johanna Rhodes
Some educators do find it hard to step back. Emotional responses can linger or there can be a sense of transference that lasts a lot longer than the simulation expects itself.
00:05:40
Johanna Rhodes
Sometimes, you know, you finish your simulation and your heart's still racing and you're still thinking about, but what but what about me? It's a juggling act between being fully present in a role as well as protecting your own well-being, which links in with the psychological safety that is of concern for educators in this cohort.
00:06:01
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So true, Jo, and I think the more we try to be authentic and create realistic experiences for students, the more we invest in it and the more risk we are for ourselves.
00:06:12
Johanna Rhodes
Yes.
00:06:13
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
You know, sometimes I think when I've been in a classroom and there's a second person co-teaching with you, that's fantastic because you can chat, you know, but when you're on your own,
00:06:20
Johanna Rhodes
yes
00:06:24
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
some of those experiences have left me as a ah ah personally feeling really vulnerable and stuff that I sort of think about years later. it's interesting because some of your students that you come across years later always remember a particular simulation.
00:06:40
Johanna Rhodes
Yes.
00:06:41
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So it's pretty powerful. I'll stop asking all the questions. I'm going over to my colleague, Jen. Jen, would you like to ask Jo some questions around this?
Structured Debriefing and Supportive Cultures
00:06:53
Jenny
Thanks, Kerry. Jo, so can you help our listeners understand the importance of debriefing, not just for the learners, but also for the educators after the simulation session, please?
00:07:04
Johanna Rhodes
Absolutely, Jen. Well, as we know, debriefing is often frame framed and it's framed for learners. There's lots of different methods for that. But educators actually need it just as much.
00:07:17
Johanna Rhodes
It gives them a structured space to reflect, unpack what just happened and importantly, to let go of that emotional load that they may be carrying, like a mini reset in effect.
00:07:29
Johanna Rhodes
Without it, educators, I believe, run the risk of carrying unresolved stress that could affect their well-being and performance in future simulations. I think it's often forgotten, Jen, that educators are processing too, and they deserve a moment to unpack the intensity of a scenario and make sense of it.
00:07:50
Johanna Rhodes
Psychological safety isn't a buzzword. it's It lets educators have a voice. If a scenario was intense, it's okay. They may need a moment.
00:08:01
Johanna Rhodes
And I think it's important that it's recognised that how important it is for learners, equally it needs to be valued and seen as is important for the person who's assumed that role.
00:08:14
Jenny
Yeah, I really agree with that one, Jo. I think sometimes, and it's not just immediately after you've done the simulation, as Kerry's just given us example, it can sometimes be much later on down the track. So with that knowledge, can you give us a bit of an outline of what your recommendations for like psychological safety for educators might look like, please, Jo?
00:08:35
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah, well, I think firstly, it's about creating a culture where educators feel seen, heard and supported. It means dedicated time with peers or supervisors to validate their experiences and for that to be done in a confidential way.
00:08:52
Johanna Rhodes
Some scenarios do trigger a stress and even personal memories. So access to professional support or counselling, I believe, is actually the way forward. Similar to supervision that yeah mental health nurses have in Aotearoa New Zealand.
00:09:07
Johanna Rhodes
We need to recognise that educators are human within this. while the character they've played is not quite unquote real, It's very real to the person who's played it and to the learners who experienced it.
00:09:22
Johanna Rhodes
So a framework around policy is essential that integrates not only time for the creation of these characters the scenarios and everything else that is very well known about simulation, but equally the aftermath of simulation as well to protect the integrity of the simulations moving forward.
00:09:44
Jenny
Thanks, Jo. I'm going to hand over now to Jane. She's got a couple of questions for you.
00:09:49
Melanie Barlow
Hi, Jo, and thanks for that. I think you've touched on some of the points that I was going to ask you about, but um I'm going to ask the questions anyway and see if there's anything that you'd like to elaborate on.
00:09:55
Johanna Rhodes
you
00:10:01
Melanie Barlow
But first of all, I love the analogy of the superhero and the timeout. thought that was a really great analogy that you spoke about earlier.
00:10:12
Melanie Barlow
So my questions are what strategies help maintain educators' wellbeing in simulation education.
00:10:21
Johanna Rhodes
Well, in my research, that was very varied. But sort of ah ah to to sort of summarise it is peer support networks would be invaluable. A quick chat with someone who gets it, it who's who's perhaps been there or understood, or as Kerry alluded to earlier, in the room at the moment of that simulation as well.
00:10:41
Johanna Rhodes
But equally, that person may need some debriefing as well. as as as the observer. Structured supervision, of course, can help educators reflect on challenging scenarios and potentially receive some guidance because chances are they're going to repeat that scenario in future um learning activities.
00:11:02
Johanna Rhodes
some personal Some participants in my study had personal rituals that they found surprisingly effective. One key one being shaking off the character at the end.
00:11:13
Johanna Rhodes
which is a technique out of the method acting technique of Stan Velaski. and But the institutions play a role too, and recognition of this being an issue is essential.
00:11:25
Johanna Rhodes
Small gestures of appreciation of time. Formal acknowledgement can go a long way. i think if we want educators at their best, there has to be support that's actually formalised and resourced to support and in not just assumed?
00:11:44
Melanie Barlow
Thanks, Jo. So my next question was about what type of institutional support, training and professional development do you recommend for simulation educators?
Education and Resilience
00:11:56
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah, Jane, I think that's a great question because ongoing education is the key, not just in technical simulation skills. I mean, simulation is advancing rapidly, with but especially with that with AI mannequins, all of that, it's just advancing really fast.
00:12:14
Johanna Rhodes
But actually that debriefing and role immersion and emotional resilience, there needs to be some resourcing into that with ongoing education. Professional development, I think, could include workshops on managing stress, but specific to being another character.
00:12:29
Johanna Rhodes
So borrowing some of the techniques from the acting world, I think, would We don't need to reinvent the wheel, but we do need to acknowledge this as a situation. Understanding the psychology of role play or even basic ah ah acting techniques to enhance that authenticity.
00:12:48
Johanna Rhodes
I think also the formalisation of support systems is essential rather than ah just being the educator's problem because what tends to happen, if it's not formal, it won't it won't happen because there'll always be something else that becomes more important.
00:13:03
Johanna Rhodes
want educators to thrive when they're assuming simulated patient roles, not just survive. and so And I think if there's an element of value to the to the expertise of these educators, that's going to enhance the quality of simulation-based education.
00:13:22
Melanie Barlow
Thanks, Joe. I'm going to hand back over to Kerry for some more questions. book Some really good insights there. Thank you.
00:13:30
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Yeah, thanks, Jo. Look, ah I'm hearing very much loud and clear that organisations have a bit of a responsibility to their staff who are participating in simulation to really look at that preparation and that education.
00:13:46
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And I think sometimes that's, we talk about preparing, I'm going to use Masked again, we run two-day workshops and this is part that we have never, ever discussed, the actual debriefing.
00:13:56
Johanna Rhodes
Thank you.
00:13:57
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
of the person who's playing the actual role. We spend a lot of time talking about the debriefing of of the students, the you know, the participants, the learners. I guess... One of the things I wanted to raise was the more complex or risky the simulation is.
00:14:15
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So that simulation where there is higher stakes really needs that absolute preparation of the educator who is assuming that role. And I think sometimes we may see people go in, oh, I'm just going to play this particular role.
00:14:32
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Now, one of the things I don't think they sometimes realise is who is in that audience. And if that audience person is has a direct response to that educator who is playing a particular role that may become triggers for that learner, that's where their responses back to that educator can be really, really challenging.
00:14:56
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And I use one example, Jo, when I was working with some very experienced educators in Darwin and I said, are you ready for this role? are you ready to play with this interaction with Masked?
00:15:07
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And I played and assumed this role and the person reacted really, really in a very challenging way and this was an experienced educator, broke down and was, you know, had to lead the simulation and I went and spoke to her afterwards.
00:15:20
Johanna Rhodes
Yes.
00:15:22
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
She said, everything you were doing was my father.
00:15:25
Johanna Rhodes
yes
00:15:25
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And he just recently passed away. So my response back was, oh my gosh, what have I done in my role? And it's something that never, ever left me. But we all debriefed her, but nobody debriefed about, well, what were you doing? So I think as educators, how do we, and I'll be interested in your thoughts about this, in educators, what recommendations do you sort of have as we're designing our simulations that,
00:15:52
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
where there is potential high stakes, where we may impact on learners without even realising. Have you got any thoughts about that in terms of the design and preparation?
00:16:04
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And I've just thrown this question to you. You haven't even prepared.
00:16:07
Johanna Rhodes
No, that's all and that's so good. I think the the key is that you've got to listen to the educators and ah ah and not just let them carry on and do what they're doing. Listen to what they need. And if they are saying, I need time after this to be able to unpack this or I need professional supervision,
00:16:28
Johanna Rhodes
to enable me to to to externally talk about my experiences or ah the impact I've had on students or the impact students have had on me as well, because that also interacts.
00:16:40
Johanna Rhodes
A student might grab grab your hand at ah ah at ah ah at a moment when that seemed a bit strange or do something, and you've sort of got to act in the moment while maintain maintaining your character.
00:16:52
Johanna Rhodes
Making sure there's provision for what the educator needs And for not not every education well not every educator will need the same support.
Impact of High-Stakes Simulations
00:17:03
Johanna Rhodes
But if there's resourcing available, then you can listen to your educators and go, here's what's available. What what do you need? Help us to help you Ensuring that workload expectations meet the demands of the role.
00:17:18
Johanna Rhodes
And I think you've you've hit on a really key point. Some of these really impacting simulations, particularly around things that are There's many different cultures and many different beliefs, you know, death, dying,
00:17:33
Johanna Rhodes
and ah pregnancy. Like there's a whole lot of different feelings that people have around those um very, very sensitive life events.
00:17:43
Johanna Rhodes
And so i think that it's sort of almost a cultural safety situation where you've got to understand your own culture so that other people so that you can understand that the people around you are possibly going to experience it differently from how you are.
00:17:58
Johanna Rhodes
And so I think actually cultural safety comes into play with this as well. And because these are all quite sort of the greyer areas of nursing, let's say, we get into that whole scenario where it's not black and white.
00:18:13
Johanna Rhodes
If we do this, the cause will be this. So I think we've got to be really careful that that we we continue to listen to people when we're deciding on what resources are needed for the support of these incredible educators, the superheroes, as we're going to now call them.
00:18:30
Johanna Rhodes
And in acknowledging their contribution as well, acknowledging that looks really tough this morning. You know, are you okay? Do you want to talk about it? Or, Kerry, I really liked when Cyril did that this morning.
00:18:46
Johanna Rhodes
What was that like for you behind him? you know, and just sort of really even the little things that that come out, particularly in simulations where you as the patient cry or and in some cases those tears are real because it's actually impacted you and you're actually are, you're not having to act, you are actually crying behind that behind a mask behind your moulage through the mannequin or whatever.
00:19:17
Johanna Rhodes
So I think it should be a culture where wellbeing is the priority rather than afterthought.
00:19:26
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So true. And Jo, and I know your research fairly well, having had the privilege of supervising you, and I know from that research there was a lot of, and I go back to Masked, where that that high risk, that high, know, we immerse ourselves in the roles, we become somebody else, and that isn't just a one-off simulation.
00:19:31
Johanna Rhodes
Okay.
00:19:47
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
It is a character that continues throughout potentially a whole three years of a student's degree. And so and it's not just something that we let go. when you When students challenge that character, it's actually an insult on yourself. And one of the things we've always done in our workshops is really encourage people when they're doing role play not to play themselves and try to create those characters that are removed from their own personal journey where you haven't got such a risk of when things are are impacting so personally.
00:20:25
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
But at the same time I say that, it's so hard not to because there are certainly character traits that you really love about somebody that is endearing and encourages those learners to have that lovely connection with you.
00:20:41
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And so the greater the vulnerability for you of the character in your design, the greater the vulnerability you are to learners who are within your midst. So I guess what I'm learning and what I'm hearing from here, Jo, is that absolute importance of debriefing nurses or educators who are assuming patient roles.
00:21:05
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah.
00:21:05
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Being really mindful of who, how they design their characters. I have three Ds. so the Do not play yourself, don a prop and D role after that particular experience.
00:21:17
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So in a nutshell, Jo, I've got three sort of final questions here. What do you recommend then to institutions looking forward to better support educators? So if Some of our edge in audience members here actually run simulation studios or or, you know, simulations at various organisations.
00:21:42
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
What are some of the things that you're going to, their takeaway messages today?
Supporting Educator Wellbeing
00:21:48
Johanna Rhodes
I think because or educational institutions are businesses, you're going to have to have a policy around it or else it won't happen. So I think the black and white, so to be able to turn something grey, black and white, is through policy.
00:22:05
Johanna Rhodes
So you're going to need ah policy. You're also going to need regulatory bodies to acknowledge the educator's role in simulation as well through their standards. So, you know, every program is accredited against the nursing council or similar within the country that you're in.
00:22:23
Johanna Rhodes
And so I think it's really important that it starts at that regulatory level, that educator psychological safety is acknowledged in there in some form that requires education facilities to have a policy around the resourcing and support of educators who ah who are working within within the within simulation.
00:22:45
Johanna Rhodes
And it's not, I don't think, only the people who are shooting the roles, it's the people working with those people as well. Because, like you said, you do try to be a character that's different from yourself.
00:22:58
Johanna Rhodes
But things like personal care, things like death, those really, really life events will trigger someone.
00:23:11
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So it's really around workplace health and safety too, isn't it? We we can hear about psychological, yeah, we hear about the psychological safety around learners.
00:23:11
Johanna Rhodes
and And so, yeah.
00:23:16
Johanna Rhodes
It's an extension of, yeah.
00:23:21
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
We hear about the psychological safety around workplace in terms of, you know, generally,
00:23:23
Johanna Rhodes
Yep. Yep.
00:23:28
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
caring for one another as colleagues. This is another part of that workplace health and safety.
00:23:33
Johanna Rhodes
yeah
00:23:33
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So I'm just wondering then, Jo, where do you see the role of simulation educators evolving in the next few years when we consider this whole area with, and I'm going to really emphasise this psychological safety
Evolving Role of Simulation Educators
00:23:48
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
that links in with debriefing for educators who are playing those simulated roles?
00:23:55
Johanna Rhodes
I think educators are central to healthcare education in multiple ways. there They facilitate, they research curriculum developments and advocates for so wellbeing.
00:24:06
Johanna Rhodes
Now it's time to twist that and have it for themselves as well.
00:24:11
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Yeah.
00:24:12
Johanna Rhodes
Learner at the centre, I 100% support learner at the centre, but it let's not forget about the people around that centre.
00:24:19
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
yeah
00:24:20
Johanna Rhodes
it's they're not they're not It's not... the learner being the pizza and we're just the cheese on top, actually, we are the base of of what that outcome is going to be.
00:24:31
Johanna Rhodes
think more investment is needed in the education, but I'd also like to see greater international collaboration because I think you could have a lot of sort of support networks internationally where it would take away from being people that you'll always know Because sometimes you will debrief stronger with someone who essentially is and visit like not known to you. You're not going to have to face them the next day.
00:25:03
Johanna Rhodes
So you know sometimes debriefing with a colleague can be very awkward if you then share an office with them and that afternoon, if it's been quite deep. Other times that's absolutely what you need is a friendly face. But I think some international collaboration around is is absolutely essential moving forward.
00:25:21
Johanna Rhodes
And not having little pockets of silos. I think it could be internationally managed to make it to share best practice.
00:25:32
Johanna Rhodes
and And keeping the simulations realistic without but overburdening educators with the responsibility. I think in education, it's such an exciting time.
00:25:43
Johanna Rhodes
The field is so maturing in so many ways. the Let's pause to make a real difference for everyone involved. And, yeah, ah ah a branch of health and safety, but absolutely essential to health and safety.
00:25:59
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Yep, and I go back, Jo, to that previous comment, being really mindful about your design of your simulation. And I think, too, taking on roles, one has to be really also mindful of the authenticity of that role.
00:26:06
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah.
00:26:15
Johanna Rhodes
Yes. Yes.
00:26:15
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So if you are playing a particular role, then you've done the research around what those mannerisms might look like, what that dialogue might be, because that can also open you for criticism from learners if they themselves have somebody who is experiencing that same condition.
00:26:32
Johanna Rhodes
Yes. Yeah.
00:26:34
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So Again, homework, preparation, um having ideally somebody in that, the higher the stakes, the more support you have in that classroom where they're a second educator is fantastic, even just during the simulation where they're actually doing the role play.
00:26:49
Johanna Rhodes
yeah
00:26:50
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
I think too, the authenticity in the moulage and whatever donning of the props whatever you're going to be wearing is also really important and understanding what your objectives are and keeping on task because again I think when we go off task we move away from objectives even though we might have a capture a teachable moment we can also set ourselves on a trajectory where we're open to more vulnerability and
00:27:04
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah.
00:27:19
Johanna Rhodes
yeah
00:27:19
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Jo, this has been really stimulating and I really hope that our audience has gained something from it. For me, as someone who designed Masked, this has been a real gap in our preparation of people who assume these roles.
00:27:35
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And as I say, these are in Masked, it is an incredibly invested role, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of character build that not is just for a one-off simulation but can be over many years.
00:27:48
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
And we know from your research some of the challenges mark those people who have played, not just in mask ed, but in playing assuming roles that are regular visitors to those learning environments, put themselves even at greater risk.
00:28:04
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Yeah.
00:28:05
Johanna Rhodes
You're so right, Kerry.
00:28:06
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
I'm sorry.
00:28:07
Johanna Rhodes
I mean, you're wearing so many hats as an educator. You're an actor, a scientist, a therapist, a mentor. And curiosity and empathy and a sense of humour are so essential.
00:28:19
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:19
Johanna Rhodes
But let's not take advantage of our educators. Let's put the resourcing and the support in place like to protect their psychological safety.
00:28:25
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
yeah
00:28:28
Johanna Rhodes
Understand the demands of this work. it's not It's not as simple as let's become someone else and have some fun for the day. There's a lot more complexities than that.
00:28:36
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
yeah
00:28:39
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Okay, look, that's all from me. I'm just wondering if there's any other questions from our wonderful team that are here today. Jenny and Jane, do you have any anything else?
00:28:49
Melanie Barlow
you
00:28:51
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Jen?
00:28:51
Jenny
Yeah, Jo, I've got a question. If I wanted to know more about this, have you written a paper somewhere that I could read a bit more about this, given its emerging information from your research?
00:29:03
Jenny
Is there a paper somewhere?
00:29:05
Johanna Rhodes
Well, Jenny, it's funny you should ask that question. Not yet, but there will be. 100%, absolutely.
00:29:11
Jenny
Great. So if I keep an eye out, you can let us know when that's released and we'll let our listeners know.
00:29:17
Johanna Rhodes
hundred percent absolutely
00:29:17
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
There's lot lots of conferences, but watch for the paper. Watch for the papers that are going to, not just one, there'll be multiple.
00:29:23
Jenny
<unk>
00:29:25
Johanna Rhodes
Oh, there we are.
00:29:27
Jenny
Yeah, good. Yeah, no, it's it's interesting because if I want to know more about it, I think this is new emerging research that there may not be a lot of information out there yet. So thanks, girls. I think that's that's some fantastic.
00:29:40
Jenny
So, Jane, if you don't have any questions, I'll ask our last famous question.
00:29:45
Melanie Barlow
Can I just ask one question? And that is, I think this is amazing research, Jo. And I think that your work will really help people to ask for that support.
00:29:57
Melanie Barlow
But how do you think we actually get that investment from institutions to actually protect? I mean, that's a curly question, isn't it? That's the one that we're all asking.
00:30:06
Johanna Rhodes
ye no
00:30:08
Melanie Barlow
We know we need to do this, but how are we going to prove that this is valuable and I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that.
00:30:15
Johanna Rhodes
Yeah, i think I think it's got to be integrated into regulatory standards and it's got to be integrated into policy.
00:30:16
Melanie Barlow
yeah
00:30:23
Johanna Rhodes
Because
00:30:24
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Bye.
00:30:25
Johanna Rhodes
when we're working with businesses, that is the only way that money will happen is if it's a requirement. So a simulation is now becoming part of your regulatory standards in healthcare, so that's a really good platform to then be building on and saying to institutions, well, this is a requirement, therefore you need to put some resourcing into place.
00:30:52
Johanna Rhodes
And I think having... been a head of faculty before, it has to start at that level for it to be real and seen as an investment. As Jenny's alluded to, more research, a paper from this research, or papers, as Kerry said, from this research, getting it out there and putting it out there and making it real.
00:31:14
Johanna Rhodes
But you've got to be talking to the people who actually hold that hold the wallet. and And that's generally through your regulatory standards, your legislation and your policies.
00:31:26
Melanie Barlow
Thanks Jo.
00:31:28
Jenny
Thanks, Jo. I think that's been um a really interesting chat what happens for actual educators because, as you say, sometimes the focus is on the students or the learners in simulations.
00:31:39
Jenny
So our last question, and so far we've been asking all our listeners this and we've been travelling around the world having drinks all over the world.
Jo's Ideal Place
00:31:46
Jenny
So if you could be anywhere in the world, where would you be and what would your drink of choice be, Jo?
00:31:52
Johanna Rhodes
Wow, if I could be anywhere in the world, there's no place like home, right?
00:31:59
Jenny
Yep. yep
00:32:00
Johanna Rhodes
i would love to be back in beautiful Spain with all of you wonderful people. That's a very treasured memory.
00:32:11
Johanna Rhodes
But honestly, somewhere peaceful in Aotearoa, New Zealand, over the beach, just sipping a nice cold drink of anything really but just the peace of the tranquility of a New Zealand beach yeah why not that time out yeah
00:32:31
Jenny
Thanks. Great. Thanks, Jo.
00:32:33
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Fantastic.
00:32:36
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
Okay, look, thank you so much, Jo, and thank you, Jane and Jen, and all the best to our our sick colleague, Mel, will be back on track for the next one, I'm hoping.
00:32:49
Kerry Anne ReidSearl
So thank you, everybody, and I think it's over and out from us for today. see see you soon
00:32:58
Johanna Rhodes
Ka kichai.