Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 7: Art & Intent with Billy Blue
77 Plays1 year ago
Host Alan Bahr is joined by artist, author, and game designer Billy Blue to discuss illustration, art direction, first crowdfundings, moving from art to game design, inspiration, and improving your craft.
Alan also embarrasses himself by admitting he invited himself into Billy's project...
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Show and Guests
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm Alan Barr and this is Radio Free RPG. Hello, I'm Alan Barr and welcome to Radio Free RPG.
00:00:33
Speaker
Today I'm joined by my guest, author, artist, and game designer, Billy Blue. Billy, how are you today? Hey, I'm really good. Thanks for having me. Ah, it's a pleasure to have you here.
Billy Blue's Artistic Journey
00:00:44
Speaker
So, you know, I led with author, but primarily, and correct me if I'm wrong, but your primary discipline when it relates to tabletop RPGs is primarily art.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely my background. That's what I do with most of my time. And that's, you know, where my my love and my skill set is. Okay. And is this is art your full time job? Yeah, well, I like to say, being a stay at home dad is my full time job. And art is how I fill in the rest of the time. That makes sense. Yeah. How many children do you have if I can ask? Two kids and two dogs.
00:01:26
Speaker
Definitely seems like a lot of work. I've got two dogs and they're already a ton of work. So I'm just hoping all of them stay quiet for this interview. So I gave to the dogs and TV to the kids. So hopefully that works. Well, we only go for about half an hour to 45 minutes. So hopefully we can make it. Should be good. All right. So let's talk about art. So what are some of the projects you've worked on? Um, quite a few. Fortunately, um, I have, uh,
00:01:55
Speaker
My first real major work was probably working with Yogdu Games, who did Tomb of the Malaysian and Pork in the Void, things like that, which I did a few pieces for each of those projects. Also with Gaming Ballistic, Douglas Cole's company. I did a lot of work for him right at the beginning and a lot of it was
00:02:21
Speaker
just really small stuff like counters and things like that and character counters and tokens. And then I moved up from there to bigger illustrations and then even a few covers and things like that. Actually, I've recently been fortunate enough to work with you on a few projects, which I can't wait for people to see because they're all turning out really great. So yeah, a little fantasy, a little bit of horror, a little bit of everything, hopefully.
00:02:51
Speaker
Cool.
Art Style and Influences
00:02:52
Speaker
So now the most of the art I've seen from you is either kind of I'll call it grim dark or dark fantasy and or sort of that sort of style in modern horror. Would you say that's accurate to the bulk of your work? Yeah, I think that one of the things about me as an artist that I've learned is that I'm very
00:03:18
Speaker
flexible when it comes to style. And I'm very adaptable to different projects and genres and styles. So I have actually a lot of work in a lot of different areas. But I think one of them has gotten me the most amount of notice is that style that you're talking about. And it's kind of funny because it all started with a game we're probably all familiar with, which is Mork Borg. Sure.
00:03:48
Speaker
And when Morkboard came out, of course, I was captivated by the art style. And just because of the way that I like to do things, I thought, well, let's see if I can make that. And I started experimenting around and just trying some stuff just to see if I liked it and started posting online and getting notice for it. And then that kind of led to a job and a job led to another job and so on.
00:04:14
Speaker
So me just kind of playing around with that style actually led people to know about me and my work and then allowed me to get more work doing that style. People are always surprised when they find out like, oh, can you do
00:04:31
Speaker
you know, 5E style, you know, painted things. And I say yes. And oh, can you do morque, borg and gritty and splattery type of things? And I say yes. Oh, can you do a 90s style black and white comic book work? And I say yes, you know, and things like that. So it's a it's a fun challenge to try on, you know, new hats, as it were. And so hopefully after enough time, I can be known for, you know, a lot of things. But I think right now I get a lot of work in that kind of grim dark stuff.
00:05:01
Speaker
Okay. So more boring hasn't been out terribly long. So you've only been doing RPG art for a couple of years. Yeah.
Transition to Full-Time Art
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, um, when the pandemic started, I was still working my day job and partway through the pandemic that didn't really, um, continue to be feasible. So my wife and I had a talk and we just kind of said,
00:05:24
Speaker
Hey, should we make this jump and should I try to pursue this? And I did, and she's still working her day job, but hopefully, you know, I can build it up enough so that she can work that less. So yeah, it's only been a couple of years and it's going pretty well. So I'm pretty happy about that. Wonderful. That's great. That was when I went full-time at Gallant was right around the start of the pandemic as well. So yeah, it's forced a lot of us to kind of make some tough choices.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yes, but silver lining in some ways, I suppose. Exactly, yeah. I mean, we're just all trying to make the best of it, you know? Yeah. So let's talk about your art process. So you primarily work for other companies and do some for yourself, I'm sure. But in my, so let's use me as an example. If I come to you as a publisher of games and I say, hi, Billy, I would like you to make me some art. Yeah.
00:06:23
Speaker
Well, how does that process unfold from your end? What is the we'll call it the art of the commission look like? Yeah. So it's a little bit different for every process, but generally I like to ask a few questions about the project and figure out what's going on in the client's head.
00:06:44
Speaker
And then I kind of just need a really brief description, even just bullet points. And then I work up a few sketches, send them back. And then that's the point where we know, are we going in the right direction or not? And then they give me their feedback. Usually it's not too much.
00:07:01
Speaker
And then I will send back either a refined sketch or maybe a color sketch or sometimes just the final So I try to keep the process pretty streamlined. I actually used to have a whole Form email thing I would do and it would say like, you know fill in this info here and it was helpful but it just after a while seemed like it wasn't as necessary where I could I could have that conversation, you know in a chat and
00:07:28
Speaker
And, you know, in just a couple of minutes, I could get all of the information I needed. OK. So, yeah, just kind of back and forth digitally a few times. And then there you go. Should be done. And now a lot of artists charge different rates for black and white and color. And that is primarily to my understanding due to the workload that color adds and that you have to balance multiple visual aspects on top of the composition.
00:07:58
Speaker
Now you have done this splatter art style where you have these splatters of color or specific single colors that kind of show up. I'm thinking like sometimes red for the eyes or like a blood splatter on top of the black and white art. Yeah, kind of a color splash. Exactly. Yeah. So.
00:08:23
Speaker
What what draws you to that visual style? Because that is a very distinctive visual style. Well, it's funny that you brought up the the time and the workload because the thing that attracts me most to it is the the way that it handles the workload. It's time wise, it's similar to a straight black and white work, but
00:08:48
Speaker
output wise, it looks like color work. So it's a little bit of both. It's not as time intensive as fully painted color work, but it has a little bit of extra jouge compared to the black and white work. So more bang for your buck. That makes sense. Now, do you do most of your art in physical or digital medium?
Digital vs Traditional Media
00:09:12
Speaker
I used to be physical and now it's pretty much 100% digital. I'm actually a traditionally trained artist, so drawing, painting, all that stuff, I have all that experience. And slowly over the years, I've moved into digital artwork. Okay. Do you find that medium easier versus physical for the commission? I'm sure it's much easier to go back and fix a layer or something rather than
00:09:38
Speaker
white out a portion of a physical illustration and redo it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's definitely easier to edit afterwards as far as the actual doing of it. It's about the same. Once you get used to it, it's more that
00:09:58
Speaker
I get the benefit of having a bunch of tools at my disposal without having to actually physically buy and store the tools. So, you know, different watercolor versus marker versus pencil versus ink, you know. Also, as much as I love painting, it's very, very messy and fairly toxic depending on, you know, what kind you do. So I don't miss the paint headache, the paint fume headaches and things like that.
00:10:27
Speaker
But there's a, there's definitely a tactile quality to physical media that is missing when you do digital. And there's kind of just a little like mental disconnect trick you have to do and you have to say like, I am
00:10:46
Speaker
pushing a brush across a canvas, you have to kind of tell yourself that when you're doing digital work because, you know, you don't get that feedback that you normally would get through your hand and through your brain if you were actually in front of a canvas. So, you know, it's kind of like a little game you have to play and you have to tell yourself like I am using ink, I am using paint, I am using a pencil.
00:11:07
Speaker
that helps to remind you of the like physical differences that are present. So like when I hold a pencil, I don't hold it the way I hold a stylus. And so when I hold a paintbrush, I hold it similar to my stylus, but not the same. So I have to basically, when I'm holding a stylus, I have to tell myself that like, remember those differences, remember those things and try to emulate those things.
00:11:38
Speaker
OK, that's interesting. I had not considered sort of the physical or tactile differences between the I mean, obviously, I understand that putting paint on a canvas is different than a pencil on a piece of paper, but that how that would translate to a stylus and tablet are not things I had thought about.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's the physical application of the medium that produces a lot of the effects that we see and we don't realize it. So the reason why a painting looks like a painting is because of the physical application of it. The reason why a drawing looks like a drawing is because you have a very thin stick of graphite that you're rubbing on a flat surface to get an effect. So the effects you get are different, the techniques you use are different.
00:12:28
Speaker
the look you get is different. And you know, so if you're painting, you have basically a colored paste that you're mushing around a textured surface, you know, so it gives you different effects. And it changes the way that you approach the work mentally. And there's all kinds of, you know, mental tricks you have to use when you're when you're painting versus drawing just to kind of
00:12:52
Speaker
Keep the medium in your mind, you know, like the old saying, the medium is the message. So what medium you're using influences how you think while you're creating. So since I'm using a tool that is kind of just a stylus, no matter what, I have to mentally make that leap every time I sit down and make art. That makes sense. I'm going to circle back to this because it actually relates to a question I want to ask later. So don't let me forget.
00:13:19
Speaker
You're trusting my memory. That's a sure bet right there.
Art Direction and Collaboration
00:13:25
Speaker
As an artist, when you receive art direction, what is the best way for that to happen? I'm going to use a recent example. You did some art for me, where I had some feedback. I think it might have been the first time I've given you that feedback on art, actually.
00:13:46
Speaker
And we went back and forth talking about it to make sure we were clear. And you ended up sending me a snippet with some sort of lines like, hey, this is kind of what I think you're saying. Can you confirm? Yep. Now, that is something I could have done myself and sent to you. I have the skill set to clip an image and draw some lines. Luckily, is that sort of physical modification of the medium as our direction easier than verbal?
00:14:16
Speaker
So it depends on the direction itself, but in general, I would say yes. I'm obviously a very visual person. So if a client has a suggestion and they're trying to say, you know, move the arm to this angle, they could verbally describe it by saying, you know, raise it this amount of degrees or tilt it away from the camera or whatever, or they could just draw a line and
00:14:43
Speaker
Now I will instantly know where they want that arm placed. It's just in my mind, it's a quicker mode of communication because I can make a stroke, send it to you, you look at it, you respond. Instead of me, you know, you taking the time to accurately describe what you mean, sending it to me, hoping I can interpret it the same way, then me asking questions to confirm that I'm thinking the same thing.
00:15:07
Speaker
and then now making the work. So it might just be my visual artist brain, but to me, it's quicker and more efficient. And of course, there's some things that, you know, they don't need that. But if it's a situation where we had where it's like, turn the head right. Okay, well, do you mean camera might? Do you mean character right? How far do you mean? You know, and it's like,
00:15:30
Speaker
um you're a guy obviously that works with a lot of artists so you are more savvy when it comes to these kind of things um but every now and then you'll run across a uh you'll run across someone who
00:15:43
Speaker
Obviously doesn't have that skill set very strong So they'll say things like pay on the camera and they mean tilt, you know, or you know, they'll say Like zoom out and what they really mean is zoom in, you know make the image bigger So things like that, you know, sometimes they just don't have the vocabulary for that and those those conversations they're usually more headache inducing and the artwork is
00:16:14
Speaker
We'll just say it's not as quick and easy to get to a really good finished product. Sure. Sometimes the headaches are harder and sometimes sometimes you get lost along the way and you don't really find the finished image that you really had in your head to begin with, you know? Right. So let's talk about that sort of art direction. So on this sci-fi project we were working on,
00:16:37
Speaker
I gave you a bunch of references. I was very sort of specific about the visual style I wanted because I have a very specific medium in mind. But on previous art we've done, I have sort of given you vague descriptions. I've said this is what we are trying to evoke. And I've let you kind of do your own thing. Now, do you prefer one way or the other? Do you find one easier to do? Well,
00:17:06
Speaker
Just looking at the experiences we've had working together, I can say that even though you see a spectrum of different kind of art direction you've given me, to me on my end, they all are kind of actually pretty similar. Okay. Because what you would consider maybe more direction heavy is actually very light considered to what I get from some other clients. Interesting. So sometimes people forget that
00:17:34
Speaker
My job is to create visuals, so you need to tell me what the visual information is. And if most of it is like, hey, artist choice, just make it feel like this, that's great. That's a perfectly valid way to approach it. Make it feel like this game, plus this movie, set in this time period, go. That's fine. That gives me a couple of pegs to hang my hat on. But sometimes you'll get
00:18:01
Speaker
Okay, my character was born in this area. And then they, you know, they give me a whole 10 page backstory. And it's like, dude, I just asked you what color their cloak was, you know, like, so there's some people who go way, way far, and give me literal character backstories when I'm asking about their costume. And then there's some people who say, you know, just go for it.
00:18:26
Speaker
And then that's it. So it really runs the gamut. Um, usually the most fun ones are the people who say like, just go for it. But they also sprinkle in a little bit of, uh, a little bit of guidelines because nine times out of 10, when a client says like, do what you want or I trust you or go for it, they kind of mean that. But what they really mean is I trust you because I'm hoping that you're going to land where I want you to land anyway.
00:18:56
Speaker
And you can increase the odds of that if you give a little bit of direction. So like the last, the current project that we were doing, you said, here's the character descriptions, like here's what they do in game. And then you also said, here are some style references to be inspired by. And then you kind of just let me go. And that, you know,
00:19:19
Speaker
To your mind, that might have been direction heavy, but to my mind, that was the perfect amount of, tell me the direction you're going, tell me the absolute must haves and must have nots, and then let me go. That's interesting. I suppose as somebody who primarily works in the writing medium in terms of my creative space, I am used to
00:19:42
Speaker
details getting pretty specific. Yep. Yep. And so I, to me, every word added is a monumental increase in terms of communication. Yeah. Well, think of it like this. Your, your words are like my brushstrokes. So everyone needs to be serving a purpose.
00:20:03
Speaker
So it makes sense that you would be used to fleshing things out, specifying lots of details, things like that. But for me, in my end, it's like describe the character to me as if you were a costume designer, describing it to someone who hasn't seen it. They wear this, they're this tall, they're this age, like that kind of a thing.
00:20:31
Speaker
They're doing this action and that's it. Those are the helpful kind of things that make sure that I can land where you need me to land quickly without having to do 15 different iterations. And some people, and here's the really troubling thing is that
00:20:50
Speaker
A little detail, a lot of detail, whatever suits you is fine. I can adapt to it. The thing that's really hard to adapt to is when the client doesn't know what they want and they're hoping that I can help them find it. And the reason why that is troubling is because I will turn in a sketch that is exactly what they asked for.
00:21:09
Speaker
And they'll say, Oh, you know what, I actually meant this other thing, or I've changed my mind, the character has changed, we need to put a different whatever, a different thing on them now. And it's like, well, you're kind of using me to work out the rough draft of your character, which is not the appropriate use of an artist because your
00:21:37
Speaker
you should know what color you want your house before you buy the paint. You know, so and you don't go buy paint and then say, no, I just painted my whole house. I don't like it. Let's return the paint and try a different one. You know, you say, well, let's think about this beforehand a little bit so we can get a plan going. Okay.
00:21:52
Speaker
That makes sense. They are sort of using you as a co-writer or co-creator. Yes, yes, yes. Which I don't mind if that's the idea going in. Sure. But, you know, it's usually not. So as long as you're communicative up front, you know, it works fine. Sort of some of the critiques that were levied at the Marvel style in the early days of comics. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's an interesting example because
00:22:21
Speaker
especially like Lee and Ditko, they were a collaborative team who could bounce ideas off each other and then that became the final product, you know?
00:22:33
Speaker
which is I think a good way to work if you know that's what you're doing. But if there's kind of a wall between the two people and person A says something, person B draws it and then person A says, no, no, no, no, let's try something different. That's a little bit of a different working relationship because it's less directionless, I guess.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah, I'm thinking of the the classic example of Fantastic Four, where Lee would provide like a breakdown of each sort of panel, but no text or anything. And then he would add the story text based on what Kirby had turned in. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the the the earlier guys like the EC guys, they were even weirder because they would do the opposite, where sometimes they would write the dialogue in the text.
00:23:28
Speaker
and then say, okay, artist, fit your art around this word, you know, or fit your art around this speech bubble, which is such a weird way to work, you know, but, you know, those, some of those comics are just amazing, which is a testament to the artists themselves, I think, you know, having to make do having done some comics work. It is both of them are difficult in different ways. Yeah, exactly. I mean, comics just in itself is a bear, you know, that's it.
00:23:51
Speaker
That's a that's a really hard job to do. And it's even harder to press. It's harder to do it well, you know. Yes. Yeah. So you recently ran a Kickstarter. For a game called TLD RPG. Yes, sir. Now, the TLD RPG was a rules like kind of dark fantasy game. Mm hmm.
00:24:15
Speaker
you did all the art for, which obviously, as we've talked about, is sort of your forte or your deep well of experience. But this sort of marks your first foray, to my knowledge, into the world of RPG writing and game design. Yeah. Yeah. I've written quite a few things, but never really taken anything to a finished product.
RPG Development and TLDRPG
00:24:35
Speaker
Sure. So I'm really excited about how it's turning out and I'm definitely going to do it again. Great.
00:24:43
Speaker
So what made you make that jump? You know, I just I'm the kind of person when I get interested in something, I get really interested in it. So I got interested in making art for games, which made me interested in playing the games, which made me interested in making a game. So it was to me just kind of the natural next step of experiencing role playing games. I wanted to give it a shot and try it. And there's a really nice
00:25:14
Speaker
There's a really nice feeling that comes with holding a product of your own in your hands. And I've gotten that buzz a few times over the last few years by holding, you know, oh, hey, I have 10 illustrations in this book. This is a really great feeling. And now I'm like, okay, I want to hold my book in my hand.
00:25:31
Speaker
Sure. So when you decided to write this game, what inspired you to do it? Were you trying to fulfill a niche or a hole you had in your space? Were there games you used as sort of touchstones? Yeah, the I think looking back, what I was trying to do was kind of
00:25:55
Speaker
I'm not surprised now that the project is pretty much done. I'm not surprised how it turned out because I can see that it's my voice and it's an expression of who I am as a person. So for those who don't know, the game is a rules-like game and I called it TLDRPG because there's an internet lingo TLDR that means too long didn't read.
00:26:21
Speaker
And basically if you have like a really long post or a really long article at the top of it you can put TLDR and then just a really brief like one line summary. So it's basically just a way to say like here's a summary so that you don't have to read the whole thing.
00:26:36
Speaker
And I came up with this idea that like, I like quicker games, I like rules like games. So I wanted to create something like that. So this is kind of my summary of the role playing experience. And, you know, this is the, this is the thing you do when you don't want to spend, you know, hours and hours and hours figuring out how to create your character and
00:26:57
Speaker
you know, complicated mechanics and things like that. So that actually really speaks to me as a person because I like things that are kind of quick and efficient. And so it's not surprising that the game came out of that kind of a thinking. I think I want to, whether it's a game or a piece of art,
00:27:17
Speaker
I want to make something that is approachable. And I don't, I have like a natural aversion to elitism or being a gatekeeper or telling people they're not good enough or things like that. So it makes sense that when I sat down to make a game, I came up with something with the express intent of it being approachable for everyone, you know? So the tone of the game is very friendly.
00:27:46
Speaker
Even though the game itself can be very deadly and the the mechanics themselves are Pretty simple and approachable and you know, they use d6 because everyone knows what a six sided die looks like so, you know choices like that so that Anyone could pick this game up and hopefully have a good night just hanging out with their buddies because
00:28:09
Speaker
To me, that's what games are all about, especially role-playing games. You sit down, you have some drinks and snacks, and you just have a cool night with your friends. And it doesn't need to be anything other than that.
00:28:22
Speaker
I mean, I relate to a lot of the points you said there being tiny d6 is our flagship game at gallon games. And it fulfills there's a lot of very strong similarities between these two games that make them have a lot of those same design goals. Yeah. And I think that that naturally that naturally happens when you make a few choices. And I didn't really realize it as I was making the choices because I was I was designing by feel.
00:28:49
Speaker
which is kind of a weird way to do it. I was basically saying, I know what I want this game to feel like. So what do I have to get rid of? Or what do I have to add to maintain that feeling? And so I just kind of naturally was like, okay, well, let's not use a d20. And let's also see if we can use one type of die.
00:29:11
Speaker
And I settled on the D6, obviously, because that's the most approachable. But it's like, OK, if I am going to have mechanics that need different ranges of values, it's either adding dice or adding a different type of dice. So I just kind of whittled it down that way and kept it simple and just said, OK, if these are the limits, if these are the restrictions I'm placing on myself so that I can maintain the feeling of the game, then how do I work through that and how do I work around that?
00:29:42
Speaker
OK, well, that actually answers my question I was going to follow up with, which was, you know, how does your experience of applying the concept of a different mental approach when you were talking about the stylus with the textures and the brushes and the pencils? How did that come out with the game? But I think you've answered that. So, yeah, look at that. You'd even have to remind me. So what what is the thing you are most proud of with TLD RPG?
00:30:11
Speaker
Um, honestly taking the first step, um, announcing it and just saying, Hey world, I'm going to make this.
00:30:23
Speaker
That was the hardest step. That was the one I was most scared of. And I think it's the one that I'm the most proud of because that step led to everything else. I mean, a Kickstarter is an intimidating aspect. It really is. It really is. And there's a lot to it and not a lot of really good explanation to how it works.
00:30:48
Speaker
So, you know, you kind of have to learn as you go. But yeah, just just announcing it was a big step for me because then I couldn't I couldn't turn back. I can sit in my house and noodle a game for the rest of my life and never release it because it's not good enough. It's not good enough. Or I could announce it and force myself to say, OK, you have a deadline. Now you have to you have to do it. And it's a similar thing when you make images, because a lot of the times I'll get a
00:31:18
Speaker
a job and I read the description and I think, I don't know how I'm going to do this. And I just think, okay, well, it doesn't matter if you know how, you need to figure out how and you need to do it because now you have a deadline. That has been my experience with the writer's block. If I am stuck, you know what? Just sit down and write and eventually it'll figure itself out.
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah, and honestly, it doesn't even matter if I sit down and I just make scribbles and loops and things because that is going to kind of detach my mind just enough where I can stop worrying about making art and then just make the art, you know? And whatever I make, it's probably going to be so-so, but that's so-so I can improve on. And I can't improve if I don't pick up a pencil.
00:32:03
Speaker
You know, drawing is drawing is a mental activity, but the the product is not a mental process. It's not a mental product. So you actually you actually have to pick up your tool and make a mark. Otherwise, you're not making art. You're just theorizing about it. Right. And that applies whether it's, you know, writing or painting or dance or sculpture. You know, you got to actually sit down and do the damn thing. Otherwise, you're just you're just thinking about it.
00:32:33
Speaker
I have a sign that's above my computer that says words on paper get me paid. It does not say good words, it does not say bad words, it just get the words on the paper, you can fix them later. Exactly. What is it done is better than perfect? Right, exactly. So now that you've made, well, you haven't released it yet, but it's in progress. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, are you finding that the stress of running the Kickstarter outweighs the stress of production?
Kickstarter Challenges and Collaboration
00:33:02
Speaker
Um, you know, is it now? Is there even more pressure because you've taken money? Well, okay. The thing is, it's kind of funny. Um, the Kickstarter was stressful, but the part that really stresses me out is figuring out
00:33:19
Speaker
Oh boy, how does fulfillment work? How does shipping work, especially shipping charges? Oh, so-and-so company ordered 20 copies. I need to figure out how to ship theirs to them and the other ones to everyone else, things like that. That's what's stressful to me. The actual campaign was not as stressful as I anticipated because it was basically just telling people. Telling people what I'm doing
00:33:46
Speaker
and giving them information, which is the easy part. Because the bulk of the game is done. The bulk of the work is done. And there's other things that have to happen after you do your part. For instance, editing. Editing is where you hand it over to someone else. So I can't say the game is done because someone else has to take their part now. But as far as kick-starting and all that, the campaign is pretty easy. You set it up.
00:34:16
Speaker
You give the information you need to give, and then in my experience, you step away from it. You give your updates every now and then like you need to, and this might just be my coping mechanism, but I am the kind of person who I have to say,
00:34:32
Speaker
You know, it is done, put it down, walk away. And so on the very first day of the Kickstarter, I made it a point to like, okay, you got to go to the gym. You have to pick up your kids. You have to have dinner with your wife. You know, you like, I scheduled a day of everything but Kickstarter because it's done. It's going to do what it's going to do. It's going to earn what it's going to earn. And me just watching my screen for the next 24 hours is not going to make a difference.
00:35:02
Speaker
Put the screen down, you know, you are a wiser man than I. Yeah, I did a lot of reading and watching about people's first kickstarters. And I thought, you know, that's. I have enough stress without adding self induced stress to it. Sure. So with this Kickstarter. First of all, let me tell you, you know, if you ever need to talk about some of those options you have, let me know. I'm happy to have a conversation.
00:35:31
Speaker
Oh, I'll definitely hit you up. Yeah, it might be something to actually record so other people have it as reference to. That's a really good idea. Yeah. Discuss that later. Yeah. Because as you're going through this for the first time, I have done this for almost 10 years now. So I have forgotten the questions I had 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I have new questions. Yeah. I've made new mistakes. Yeah. So having somebody to ask me those questions will help me jog those memories and I might have some
00:35:59
Speaker
answers. And so maybe we should sit down and have that conversation and record it later. Yeah, that's a great idea. But, you know, I was I was lucky enough to be able to write a small adventure for the TLD RPG. So I got to see it in sort of a an alpha or beta state, we'll call it. It's a really fun, punchy little game.
00:36:21
Speaker
So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit here. What was sort of the experience of me and I'm gonna say I kind of invited myself to write a game, to write this for you.
00:36:36
Speaker
I reached out because we had a working relationship. It was awful. And I said, hey, if you want, I'm happy to do this. Yeah, yeah. It's you know what? And it's I'm picturing I'm picturing the scene in the movie where like the the obnoxious uncle comes over and he's like, hey, I'm here, you know, and he puts his muddy feet on the coffee table and he's like, how about that beer, you know?
00:37:04
Speaker
Wow. Except, except it's the it's the turn you don't expect because, you know, he knocks on the door and then they answer and they say, oh, my God, I'm so happy you're here, you know, and they welcome them in. They bake them a pie and everyone's happy, you know. So, yeah, you kind of like through your through your your offer out there. And I can say me sitting by my little computer screen, I was like, oh, man. Yeah. Like that out loud. I literally said, oh, man. Yeah.
00:37:32
Speaker
And I was like, babe, I told my wife, babe, guess what? And she doesn't know anything about role playing games. So she's like, Alex, who? Alex, wow. Way to cut me down and make me humble again. Yeah, yeah. She's good for that because she's played precisely like half a role playing game in her whole life. So she's a good test audience for like, hey, is this too weird? That's great.
00:38:02
Speaker
but yeah the uh the tld thing it was a very very welcome addition to the the lineup you know um obviously you know what you're doing when it comes to reviewing and writing content for games so yeah it was it was for a first timer like me it was like hell yeah i want someone with an experienced eye to look through this you know because they're gonna
00:38:28
Speaker
At the very least, they're going to add their thing to it, which is going to be good. And maybe they'll even improve my product by saying, hey, don't do this or try this or whatever. So, yeah, man, many hands make work light, you know, especially my hands are still experienced. Well, and one thing that happened here was when we were doing this, I sent you the draft of my little pamphlet adventure, which was not very long. But you commented on the way I presented monsters or enemies.
00:38:56
Speaker
because it was a way you had not considered at that, you know, in terms of presentation and stat blocks. Now, with that coming in and you going, oh, hey, this works, you know, it's sort of the inverse of me giving you art direction, because now you're getting to give me writing direction. Did you feel like seeing how a different mind approached the words you had put on paper?
00:39:24
Speaker
made you want to go back and review what you'd done and make tweaks because I've had that happen where somebody will give me feedback and I'm like, oh, the way they did this was way better than the way I thought about this. I need to go back and rework stuff.
00:39:37
Speaker
yeah absolutely um specifically coming up with stat blocks for monsters has been a real challenge to me um which makes sense because this is my first time having to even think about that you know you you pick up a game and it's already done for you so um just seeing how other people do it you know um and it kind of boils down to like
00:40:00
Speaker
what they do and what they don't do, you know? What things they leave out, what things they include, because it tells me what they think is important or critical. And it's just getting to see someone else's take on something is always really informative. And I think this, again, goes back to my personality, which is
00:40:23
Speaker
Through my whole life, I've not been the most like confident and assertive person. So, I've always put a really high value on surrounding myself with people who I think are competent and confident and so that I can soak up their knowledge and figure out, you know, what to do by osmosis basically.
00:40:45
Speaker
so you know anytime someone does you know something like that where they just they send me what they've worked on the way i'm looking at it is not like let's see if it's good or or whatever my way of looking at it is. Let's see how they approach this.
00:40:59
Speaker
because they're gonna teach me something with their approach. And the product almost doesn't matter as much because the approach is what matters because that's telling me, the approach is telling me your thinking.
00:41:15
Speaker
And if I can figure out your thinking, then I can make a product similar to yours, you know, or, or a monster stat block or, you know, just sort of unravel how I got to that point and use that to inform your own decisions. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that this, I think honestly, this comes from, um, just an art training because, you know, in, in art school, they basically sit you in front of a picture and tell you,
00:41:44
Speaker
Here's what the artist was thinking. Here's why he did this choice. Here's why that choice is significant. Here's why that choice is different from the next guy's choice. And here is its place in the entire continuum of art history. So every brush stroke, every pencil line is a choice. And we have to learn to look at those choices and figure out why they did it.
00:42:12
Speaker
Why does Picasso's work look different from Rodin's work? Because they're saying something different. Why does any artist look different from any artist? And it's because they're saying something different. And even when they're saying a similar message, they're saying it in a different way.
00:42:28
Speaker
So I kind of view a piece of artwork as a statement on like everything you've ever seen, everything you've ever done. And now this piece of artwork is the product of all of those experiences combined with your choices. So to me, it's it's very informative to kind of like pick apart the why.
00:42:52
Speaker
Right. And I applaud you for having that insight and mindset coming in. That's something I did not develop quickly enough in my opinion. So I am, I'm glad to see that you have that coming in. That's, that's a big, a big advantage in terms of approach. And you know what? It honestly just all comes from me saying, I probably don't know what I'm talking about. So let's find out what other people are saying, you know, knowing what you don't know, kind of a thing. I understand that feeling all too well. Yeah.
Interview Insights and Communication
00:43:20
Speaker
So we're approaching the end of our time. I have two questions. I'm gonna start with the hard one. Is there something you have always wanted to be asked in an interview that you've never been asked? You know, there kind of isn't and it's weird because, well, first of all, I've only done a handful of interviews. So most questions are things I haven't been asked before. But you know, I just, I like when people,
00:43:48
Speaker
ask about more than just the surface. Like I said, pick apart the why. I think that good art is thoughtful art, so I think that it's always helpful to ask about the thoughts behind it. Not to open a can of worms at the end, but it's one of my main problems with AI art.
00:44:17
Speaker
is that it cuts out the thoughtfulness because it forms it out to a computer to do the thinking. And there's caveats to that, and there's exceptions to that. But in general, I'm having the machine make the decisions for me, which means I'm not putting my human experience and thought into the artwork.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think that any kind of questions that have to do with the thoughtfulness of art, why did you make this mark? What experiences are you encapsulating with this picture? What are you saying about your own history and your own fears with this piece of artwork? Because they're all doing it, whether we think it or not. And whether it's writing a story or doing interpretive dance, every artistic move you make is an expression of who you are as a person.
00:45:13
Speaker
everything you've ever gone through. I like those kind of questions. Okay. Well, I will have some ready for the next time we talk. Now, do you have any questions for me? Yeah. When you work with artists, it's a little bit of a two-parter. What is something you wish they would do more often?
00:45:39
Speaker
Or what is something you wish they would do less often, something that annoys you or something you wish you would see? I wish they would be on time more often. Oh, OK. OK. It's funny. My wife, who doesn't deal with the production side of RPGs, even though she works at Gallant with me, she might she handles a lot of the filament travel and stuff like that. Hmm. Because it's my full time job. But for her, it's her helping her husband sort of job. Uh huh.
00:46:09
Speaker
And she often says, when I say something, she's like, well, listen, artists, they're late. It's always been the case. They're notoriously flaky, aren't they? And most of the others I work with are fantastic. And when they are late, I'm usually told in advance and I'm usually aware. I am not all my artists who might listen to this. I'm not throwing shade at you. You're wonderful. I love you dearly. He's talking to all the other people who aren't you. Don't worry.
00:46:37
Speaker
I so I guess it's not so much lateness as communication. Yeah. Yeah. I often wish people would be less afraid of communicating. I don't care if you're going to be late. If you tell me, hey, I got sick, I'm going to be late or hey, this other project came back and it was already due and it's kind of a priority. I got to bump you. That's all fine. I can work around that if I know. So.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, my lateness comment is mostly a joke, but I do wish artists would communicate upstream more to me as a production manager. Yeah, I can totally see that. It's actually one of the things that I've tried to do in my short art career so far is to be communicative, because I recognize that a lot of artists don't have great communication skills. And sometimes it's
00:47:28
Speaker
Sometimes it's because they're just kind of a shy person or sometimes it's because they're a very nervous person and they're worried about looking bad. There's a lot of reasons, but I kind of figured out pretty early, hey, I can speak and I'm not afraid to speak usually, so go ahead and speak and that'll help you stand out and hopefully, like you said, if you're late,
00:47:51
Speaker
Or if you need to be late or if you need something more direction, just communicate it. Because you, the publisher, can't adapt to something that you don't even know about, you know? And there's other considerations. I work with a lot of artists who are not native English speakers. And so a lot of times the communication can be stressful or we're learning how to talk with each other, especially when we've started working together. Yeah. For example, Nick and I,
00:48:18
Speaker
I have worked together for almost a decade now. We've got a pretty good communication style. We've managed to figure out how we talk and talk to each other, and it's great. We have no issues ever, really, like one of my best working relationships. He's been fantastic. But it took time when we started working together to figure that out, partially because I had to learn how to adjust how I communicated.
00:48:44
Speaker
And he had to learn to adjust how he communicated and we had to figure out where our styles interlocked and where they clashed and, you know, reduce those friction points. Yeah, yeah, totally. So I think I think on both sides, I wish artists would communicate more is my thing I would like them to do more of, I guess, and then I wish they would do less. I wish they would like make less amazing artwork, so I would spend less on it. I think watching my art budget blown out of control is the most painful part of knowing artists.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good problem to have. It is definitely, uh, definitely, uh, not really a problem kind of problem. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But yeah. So, uh, Billy, if folks want to find you your work or reach out to you, what is the best way to do so? Uh, well, my website is easier to remember. It's Billy blue art.com. And that's my portfolio. You can see all the different art styles I'm comfortable in and a lot of the work that I've done over the last couple of years. Um,
00:49:46
Speaker
I'm also active on a lot of the Facebook groups, so the zine groups and things like that. You'll see me posting around there.
00:49:54
Speaker
That's probably my most active social media. Instagram, sometimes Twitter, you know, pretty often. Reddit's a garbage can, so I don't really go there very often. But, you know, if you see me around and you want to say hi, you know, feel free. You know, I like to chat, obviously, and, you know, I'm a friendly guy, so I like to kind of hear people's thoughts and see what they're up to.
00:50:18
Speaker
Um, if you, if you need a commission, you know, I, I do, I do projects like with yours where I, you know, Hey, I need 10 different images for this game, or I just do one-offs, you know, a piece of character art or something. So if you, uh, if you need a commission, get in contact with me and you know, we'll talk rates. Um, you know, they're not astronomical and they're not dirt cheap. They're just kinda standard stuff. And yeah, I like to try new projects. So feel free to say hi.
00:50:43
Speaker
Cool. Well, Billy, I appreciate you coming on and I appreciate your insight. I think it was really a great conversation with a lot of value for folks. Yeah. I'm always happy to talk. I think that it's like you were saying about communication. We all need to sit down and chat more often so that we can understand where we're coming from and just build better relationships. That's something I've been focusing on the last couple of years. I don't know. Maybe it's getting older, but I just want to be a good person.
00:51:09
Speaker
I, you know, I definitely have felt as I've aged that I have lost a little bit of the fire that made me want to treat everything like a conflict and I'm more interested in figuring out how to keep moving forward. You know, one of the best forms of self care that I've learned is some people just aren't worth your time. So just let them go.
00:51:32
Speaker
You know, I could be, I could be screaming at some guy on Facebook about stupid politics, or I could be like watching a show with my kid and eating snacks, you know, like focus on the things that make you happy, you know? And while on that note, I'm going to let Billy go. Well, it was a great chat. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right. We'll have you back soon to talk kickstarters and the back end of that. Sounds good. All right, folks, I'm Alan Barr. This has been Radio Free RPG.
00:52:00
Speaker
do do do do