Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 24: Guest Host Amanda Kahl interviews Alan about Art Direction
69 Plays10 months ago
Today, Amanda Kahl of Age of Night returns! Amanda is guest hosting and interviewing Alan about art direction in tabletop roleplaying games.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Radio Free RPG
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Alan Barr and this is Radio Free RPG.
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, I'm Alan Barr and welcome to Radio Free RPG.
Introducing Amanda Call
00:00:34
Speaker
Today I'm joined by a guest host, Amanda Call. Hi, Amanda. Hi, that's me. It is you.
Art Direction Discussion with Amanda
00:00:43
Speaker
So we had some listeners ask for particular topics and one of them was about art directing and working with artists from the standpoint of being an art director.
00:00:54
Speaker
And so I thought it would be about time for Amanda, who was the first guest ever on Radio Free RPG over a year ago now, to come back and she will be serving as the guest host, asking me questions about RPG production, art direction, and other related topics. So Amanda, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit and then take it away?
Amanda's Freelance Experience
00:01:20
Speaker
All right. As Ellen said, hello, I'm Amanda Call. I am a freelance illustrator who's been working in the tabletop RPG industry for
00:01:30
Speaker
Oh gosh, I don't know, 12, 13 years now, something like that? I honestly don't even remember, a long time. And I'm also a comic artist, do a lot of self-published comic work, but I have done illustrations for many, many RPGs. So I have been on that side of it as the artist, working with many an art director or person who is assuming the role of art director.
00:01:56
Speaker
So I'm going to actually start with that as far as basic information because I'm not going to assume that everybody actually even knows like what an art director is, what that job even means.
Role of an Art Director
00:02:09
Speaker
So for anyone who doesn't know, can you just describe what the role of art director even is as it relates to game design? Sure. So, and I think, I think this is a little bit.
00:02:21
Speaker
varied based on each company and how many people might be there. For example, at Gallonet Games, I am the art director. I'm also the publisher. I'm also the lead designer. I'm also the CEO and CFO, and I wear all the hats. You're all the things. Yes, except for artist and layout artist and editor, because I can't do those things and I need other people to help me do better. The role of an art director traditionally is responsible for both
00:02:51
Speaker
Generating, in a lot of cases, the list of art to go inside the product, establishing the visual style and tone of what it should look like kind of cohesively, sourcing artists, communicating the pieces that are assigned, setting oftentimes setting the the art rates and the payment and all that stuff.
00:03:13
Speaker
They're sort of like a middleman contractor for artists and the publishing studio in a large sense. Their job is to give feedback on the pieces they get to understand the designer team's vision of what it should look like and then ensure that that is sort of delivered. Nice. I think that's a very good concise explanation of it from my experience as well. So it's a good starting place for people who do not necessarily know what we're even talking about. Now they do.
00:03:43
Speaker
The art direction is the art of getting good art into a book.
00:03:48
Speaker
Yes, that's exactly that. So you mentioned sourcing artists and artists. Yes. So what is that process like
Sourcing Artists
00:03:58
Speaker
for you? How is it that you normally look for an artist or find artists to work with? Is that something you intentionally go out and seek people? Are you asking other people for recommendations? Or do you just kind of let the universe send them your way? And when you see somebody whose stuff looks cool, you're like, ah, yes, them.
00:04:18
Speaker
I mean, it's a little bit of all of the above. It's probably a little bit different for me because I wear all the hats, right? Somebody who is solely doing art direction would probably have a different process. But for me, what I do is I sort of keep an eye on, one, products in the industry that I like the visual style of. And I check the credits and see who the artists were. Two, I have a group of artists I work with regularly and I know what they can and cannot do, where their strengths are, et cetera.
00:04:48
Speaker
And I tend to try to work with repeat people as much as possible. So if I have a project that fits, you know, that's going to be the first place I go. And then, you know, social media, various online portfolios. Sometimes I'll ask other artists and say, do you have a friend looking for work who can do this style? Generally, knowing that artist prefers not to do that style or something. Right. Right. Right.
00:05:11
Speaker
I would never say, Hey, do you have somebody who can do you but cheaper? Cause that'd be awful. Yeah, that might not go over super well, but say, you know, do you have a recommendation or if an artist says, you know, I talked to them and they go, Oh, I can't really do that. That's not my thing. Uh, I'll go, do you know somebody who can, can you introduce me? So it's kind of a combination of all the factors of just keeping my eyes open, looking at stuff I like.
00:05:37
Speaker
Finding new ways through social media, Blue Sky, Twitter, threads, DeviantArt, you know, some of those sites like that. ArtStation is a big one a lot of times, you know. And then just asking artists. Because all artists have other artist friends. It's true. We tend to like group up. Yeah, you kind of clump for protection, I noticed.
00:06:04
Speaker
It's that's a thing. So you did mention that you tend to use the same artists as much as possible over and over again. Before doing this interview, I went back and listened to your episode where you interviewed Nick Giancandino again, because, yeah, as as most everyone who knows anything about Gallant Night Games knows, Nick has drawn a lot of your stuff. He's one that you work with a lot.
00:06:34
Speaker
Nick is absolutely illustrated half, if not more than half of Gallaudet Games products. Yes. And that's because he's amazing. So it's amazing. And we have a very good working relationship. Yeah. So that's actually kind of what I wanted to ask about is that you described that approach that you and Nick have this kind of unique relationship that the two of you had, you talked about in that episode where you've developed this more collaborative type of relationship than a directive one.
00:07:03
Speaker
Is do you normally like to approach art direction from a more collaborative kind of like outlook or do you tend to approach it more in a directive way of like this is what I want.
Collaborative vs Directive Art Direction
00:07:16
Speaker
Please do this. And absolutely. Why why do you prefer one over the other? It I will say that answer depends on the product. So for 99 percent of what I do, I tend to have an approach of let's work together
00:07:31
Speaker
and I'll get into why in a minute. But sometimes, especially if I'm working with licensors or other people who have final say, I have to adhere to their guidelines. So I have to be concrete. You cannot do this. You can do this, right? Right. And so generally speaking, and most of the time I'm working with licensors, they're usually actually artists.
00:07:55
Speaker
For example, we've got upcoming, we're going to be kick-starting a supplement for Mech as a Monster called Kaiju and Cowboys, which is based on an indie comic. Oh, fun. Which is illustrated, written by, now that I've started talking about it, I've completely forgotten the name of the writer. His name is Matthew. He's very nice. We talked today. Matthew, I'm so sorry. I know you. Your name is the name I know. Matthew Awesome. Matthew Blair, I remember. Okay, there we go. But it's illustrated by Frankie B. Washington, who was an artist I worked with previously.
00:08:26
Speaker
And so I saw the comic and I liked it. I read it and I reached out to Frank and said, Hey, you know, we've worked together. What would you think about me adapting this to my existing rule set? And they were like, that's great. Let's do it. And so Frank, he's going to be doing the illustrations and then he's a he's a co-creator of the IP. Right. And so I'll just give him a list of what I need and Frankie can go nuts because he's going to have the final say. Right. Something like when we did Zorro, there are very different art direction rules. They have a very particular style.
00:08:53
Speaker
because the hat Zorro wears this very particular type of hat and there are hats that are similar but are not it and you have to make sure you know, or certain, you can depict Zorro doing this, you cannot depict this, stuff like that, right? And so it kind of varies in that regard. But generally speaking, if I have the final control over the product, I tend to bear a collaborative approach. And I think the reason why for me is, one, I am not an art expert.
00:09:20
Speaker
I know what I like, and as I've been doing this while, I've gotten pretty good at learning terminology or knowing things about art, but I am still not an artist, right? Right. I go, this is what I want. This is what I want it to look like. I know how to source references, but in the end, I don't know everything. For example, shortening the four
00:09:43
Speaker
Not foreshadow. I had to tell an artist to like the perspective was like I need you to bring in the perspective and shorten it so the arm looks shorter. So it looks like tighter. You had all the parts foreshortening. See, right. I didn't know what that was. And so I had to like print out a picture they sent me and I drew on it to be like, I want you to kind of move it here and do this. And do you kind of see what I mean? Right. If I know I need to do foreshortening on this arm right here, it would have been a much easier conversation. Right.
00:10:12
Speaker
And so, because I don't know these things, and this is true of all my creative work in general, when I'm working with another creative, I want them to be able to, one, add their voice to what I'm doing, because I think it makes it stronger. Their job is not necessarily to just do what Alan says and make it Alan's vision, but to make it our vision as a team, right? And then, two, they know things I don't know, and so they might propose something that I can go, oh,
00:10:40
Speaker
That's a really cool addition, or I didn't think of it that way, or that's better than what I had. And by being collaborative, I can put them in a position where they feel comfortable doing that. I want them to know they have that trust from me. Right, right.
00:10:55
Speaker
That's very cool. So I guess that kind of sort of answers my next question, but I guess you could provide some examples of it anyway, which is, do you find yourself in some situations where the art you commission will actually start to feed back into your game design and your narrative design where you get kind of like, Oh, you see a piece of artwork that you have commissioned from somebody and that gives you a new idea of something you might want to explore in what you're already
Art Influencing Game Design
00:11:22
Speaker
working on generally. Hmm.
00:11:26
Speaker
I, so one I'm sure it has. I'm struggling to pick an example right now. That's all right. I would say certainly in tiny supers because oftentimes I will give Nick, tiny supers is my universe and my game, but I've given Nick a lot of free reign to define the visual aesthetic of it. Um, within certain parameters, like I gave him very overarching, like I want this vibe, right? I need, I wanted to have this kind of
00:11:53
Speaker
the ground, the imagery in this. But other than that, you can kind of do your thing. And so Nick has had a very strong visual influence. And that in turn certainly influenced what I have written, though, generally speaking, I provide him a description first in his and he's generally just doing more tweaks. Right. Yeah. To bring it to life. But I absolutely as we did the after we did the first book, which was very much a linear. Here's what we're doing. Here's what I need.
00:12:23
Speaker
And obviously Nick had the freedom to kind of he would iterate. And I think I only ever made one requested correction to a piece of art and tiny supers, really. But the visual style he delivered there definitely influenced what I gave him for art for the second book without having to give me feedback. I went, OK, this is what Nick has been doing. So I'm going to tweak the art I'm going to request.
00:12:44
Speaker
Mm hmm. Kind of sometimes I'll say this piece is really specific because we're writing an adventure and I needed to do this. And sometimes I'll say I need something that vibes with this go nuts. Right. And I usually tell him something like if that's too vague, tell me and I'll get you something more specific. But a lot of the times he likes to kind of stretch and do that. So I can sort of get away with that once in a while. I try not to make it the whole book of that because I think he might die. But.
00:13:12
Speaker
He would just just keep on drawing more and more. I would like a book that vibes like this. Illustrate for me. Yeah, you just you would just get mountains of super detailed, amazing illustrations. And you would just be crushed under all of these markers and draw them all physically. So he would probably just die under a pile of paper. Exactly. But so it has definitely, especially with tiny supers, it's definitely a sort of influence the way we've gone and some of it.
00:13:39
Speaker
like in our upcoming Home Handbook, which we're going to be crowdfunding soon. Nick took the Canadian superheroes and he did them in a really cool comic book panel style where the top one's a big splash and there's like a portrait with the bust superimposed over the whole thing. Oh, that's so fun. And it looks really slick and unique. And he did that differently for the Canadian section of the book than all the other art in the book. And so that section immediately pops as different. Yeah.
00:14:05
Speaker
And he did the same thing in the Galver's campaign guy when we did the national team section with all these different national teams from Europe and stuff. And he kind of gave that a distinct visual style without me telling him to. He just said, hey, I'm going to do it like this. And I said, yeah, great. And he like hand drew all the national flags onto it. Oh, wow. Because he's a crazy person, I assume.
00:14:23
Speaker
And then when we got to the South America section, he came back to me and said, Hey, I mean, Nick lives in Argentina. He's like, Hey, I have some very strong opinions about this. And I was like, I expected you would go nuts. I'm like the thing that needs to match the writing. So if I need to change the writing, tell me so we can adjust it.
00:14:41
Speaker
But otherwise, like I don't really care, take the vibes. And so he was sending me like references like he's like, oh, I'm going to pull this from my history and there's some stuff here. And, you know, we have this local legend of X, Y, Z. I'm going to kind of incorporate that stuff. I never would have known no matter how much research I did. That's right. Cool. Yeah. So he was able to strike a really cool even inside the book, we were able to adapt consistent but different visual styles because he was comfortable giving that input. Right.
00:15:09
Speaker
And I have other artists I work with, Simone Tamietta, who I'm currently doing a mega dungeon with, and he's trying to kill me. I've seen some of your updates about the mega dungeon that is trying to make you die. I sent him, we were talking, I was like, hey, I want to do a mega dungeon. He's like, that sounds fun. Let's do it. I was like, great, here we go.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I sent him like the outlines of the dungeons and said, I want it like this, but feel free to, you know, make it work how you think it will work because I'm going to work it around that in the end. Right. Like here's my outline for the level. You know, I've got these key elements. Do your thing. And he would send me back these gorgeous pieces that were exceptionally complicated. I think one is like it's a mega level dungeon level that has like something like 170 rooms on that one level. Oh, my goodness. And everyone is connected by three hallways, but not a fourth because they're all square. So it's like a maze.
00:15:58
Speaker
Oh my goodness. So I'm looking at this going, how am I going to key this? What am I going to do? What do I do here? Yeah, I was like, I guess I'll just like break every room into a zone and pretend like it matters. I don't know. But he felt very comfortable giving his own, you know, stamp on that without much feedback from me and I let him because we've worked together. So.
00:16:19
Speaker
Right, right. So has that kind of trust ever backfired on you? Have you had a situation where you thought you could let someone kind of off the leash a little bit and it just went totally sideways? Yeah, absolutely. And I will say it mostly backfires on me when I assume the relationship I built with one artist transposes to another, usually unintentionally.
00:16:45
Speaker
Right. Right. I will go. This is how I operate with these five regular collaborators. I'm going to just treat this new person like that. And that that doesn't that's happened where I've had to scrap entire pieces of art and just pay for this. Can't use it. Right. Yeah. This is not going to work, you know, no matter
00:17:04
Speaker
And artists fairly have a limit on the number of revisions you'll get. And so at a certain point, you just go, OK, we're done. You're paid. Like, unfortunately, you know, we commissioned you for X amount of revisions. We've had that limit clearly. We're not communicating or vibing or whatever we want to use. Right. We're just not on the same page here. Right. And I would assume 99 percent of the time because they're talented artists. That's my fault.
00:17:27
Speaker
I'm probably miscommunicating something or not knowing the phrasing I need to use to get what I am looking for. Mm hmm. I would I definitely based on the quality, I mean, and I've worked with you based on the quality artists I've worked with, I'm going to assume like.
00:17:43
Speaker
is mostly on my end. It's not me, it's you. Or wait, sorry, it's not you, it's me. I went the wrong way there. No, really. It's just you. Get out of here. No. Yeah. Come on, Amanda. There was this one artist, Amanda, right? She's the worst. Yeah, just awful. She does all this art and stuff.
00:18:02
Speaker
stuff. So you've mentioned a couple of different projects that you are currently working on. I know that you are ridiculously prolific. You're the type of person who just like bangs out an entire game over a lunch break because you got an idea.
Project Management and Budgeting
00:18:17
Speaker
How many projects
00:18:19
Speaker
do you actually actively have in production at a point in the workflow where you're incorporating art directing at any given time? Because you having like 20 word documents going at every given time is not the same thing as having to direct an artist. It kind of depends on the game and what I intend to do with it. So some games I intend to use stock art.
00:18:43
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I know that. And so the art direction there is me picking the pieces I want to use out of either a portfolio or searching a stock art website. Mm hmm. And so I don't I don't think that quite counts because I'm not going to be giving any feedback to anybody. Right. I would say probably never more than half a dozen, probably at the most, so many at the most, probably closer to one or two, maybe three at any given time. Right.
00:19:12
Speaker
And generally I don't start one until one is kind of wrapping up so they have a limited overlap. Okay. And that's probably more due to budget constraints. I only have so much budget to go around. Nick and I are basically always working on something.
00:19:28
Speaker
Right, right, which that kind of dovetails into another question I have, which is what does budgeting for art kind of look like for you as far as that goes? Do you have like a percentage? Do you have an overall budget that you're usually aiming for or do you kind of tweak your budget to what an artist that you want to work with rates are like?
00:19:50
Speaker
So it's kind of a mix of all of them. Generally speaking, I look at the first I look at the product and I look at what I think I'm going to be able to do financially with it. And this is the really unglamorous part of publishing, folks. Heads up. Yeah, this is where we talk about spreadsheets.
00:20:06
Speaker
And I kind of look at what I'm going to do
Art Budgeting Considerations
00:20:08
Speaker
with it. And then I also have to look at, is Stockart readily available for it? It is much easier to find readily available Stockart for something that is sort of generic, low fantasy-esque, medieval-y dungeon crawling. Like that stuff is everywhere, right? And so writing for something like, writing something like that where I can use Stockart, it's much easier for me to illustrate because one, I probably already have the Stockart. Or two, it won't be that hard to find, right?
00:20:36
Speaker
And there's a benefit of like, is it a small experimental game? Well, Sakura is probably not as big a deal there, right? But if it's something that's going to be a flagship, we want to carry in stores that has the Galanet Games logo on it. We probably want custom unique art that we can have be identified with us. Right. And so then that comes to K. Well, that's original art now. And so then I'm looking at K.
00:20:57
Speaker
I tend to go by a certain number of pieces per page count. I generally want one piece of art every four to five pages now. It used to be less years ago, or we reuse art in the same book, which I've never been a fan of, but needs to have is needs must.
00:21:19
Speaker
You know, I try to I try to get even if it's just like a small quarter page illustration or a piece of spotter, I try to have something every four pages or less. And we've gotten closer with that with like Tiny Cthulhu. Certain other games, we managed to get closer. And part of it is, you know, with some of our games, art, density, art and obesity is more dense and art and other parts of the book. Right. Yeah. Because generally you don't want to illustrate any unique monster you have, and that's going to happen a lot more in a bestiary.
00:21:49
Speaker
And so it just kind of depends, but certain artists I work with a lot. I know their rates. They have rate sheets. We've communicated enough that I can go, OK, if I want to do tiny cyberpunk, I know Nick's full color cover rate. I know Nick's interior black and white rate per page. Right. And so I can go. I know how many words I'm going to write because it's an existing game and an existing line. I sort of know we're going to come in roughly this page count, which means I need roughly this many pieces of art.
00:22:13
Speaker
And, you know, the latest push has been I'm trying to like spread the art out more, too. So I'm like, OK, I know I'm going to have this many in the bestiary. I need to do that. So I need to make sure I can also accommodate this increased amount throughout the rest of the book rather than just doing a total page count division. Right. Yeah. And so those ones is a lot easier. Some projects I do with artists, we actually do a royalty share because I feel like it gets more money in the artist's pocket.
00:22:37
Speaker
And so what'll happen is then we'll collab on the game from the ground up and they will draw the art as they see fit for the game. And they just get a flat out royalty cut of the Kickstarter and everything. Usually 50-50 after costs. Yep. Which is what I would get paid to. I don't make any money till they do and we make the same amount. Right.
00:22:59
Speaker
So, you know, and in that case, the budgets of concern is just, you know, are they in a place where they can comfortably work for royalty if they want it? Right. Right. And that that's certainly not something I would have offered an artist a long time ago because I couldn't have guaranteed the sales to make it worth their time. They would have been. And I would. And I've told them in the past, you know, you're better off taking the flat rate here. Right. Right. Because you'll get the money and I can't guarantee you royalties are going to cover you. Yep.
00:23:28
Speaker
Now I can pretty reliably get close enough that I go, hey, if we don't hit what you would have made, we'll be close enough. I can pay you the difference. Right. But we've always hit it. So that hasn't been a concern yet. But so there's a bunch of ways and I've tried to tailor to the project and kind of what we're doing. I mean, it's a really long answer for all of it and then some right.
00:23:52
Speaker
Right. No, well, I mean, that's but that's good, though, because a lot of these a lot of these types of questions, I imagine there's a certain amount of people that are a certain amount of people when they ask these types of questions of you, like they want you to talk about art direction that they are curious about philosophically how you feel about art direction. And I think a certain amount of this curiosity is also just like, how is the sausage made? Like, what is actually going? What are the nuts and bolts of what's going on here?
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, I try to I try like I don't have a hard rule, but I try to do one game that has unique art a quarter and then the rest have stock art that's comfortable.
Understanding Stock Art
00:24:28
Speaker
So you have mentioned stock art a few times. And once again, I'm just going to go back to the whole, I'm not assuming that the people listening know what any of these terms mean. So can you define stock art and explain how that's different from stock art is pre stock art is pre-made art that is not customized to you that you purchase from a platform like drive through RPG or something, which is a drive through RPG is a website for RPGs and publishers and stuff.
00:24:55
Speaker
where the art is pre-rendered and you pay less of a fee, but other people can also purchase it and use it as an art. It's not exclusive. It's not exclusive to you. So for example, when I pay Nick for stuff for the Galent for Set is exclusive to Galent Night Games, we own it. You could not draw it for anybody else. You know, we can't stop him. We can't. And I wouldn't stop him from working for anybody else, but he could not go draw a Galent or Velocity for somebody else. Right. Right. But Stockart, if I use a superhero from Stockart, anybody can purchase that same piece and use it in their book.
00:25:24
Speaker
Right, which is which is why some of our listeners may have noticed certain pieces of artwork popping up in multiple small, independent books. Wait, I've seen this before. I mean, there are some there are some stock artist, Dean Spencer, on Drive Through RPG, right? You see a lot of Dean's art on the cover of classic adventure OSR style fantasy book because he has that vibe. Same with Eric Lofgren, Rick Hershey, you know, very common. And which is a testament to the quality.
00:25:56
Speaker
But it is generally affordable, like a full color Dean Spencer cover piece, stock art, where I don't have any say in it, I can just purchase it and use it. It's like 15 bucks. If I went to commission a full color book cover, this minimum 150. Right. And that's a really good rate. Like the kind of rate I would be uncomfortable with, generally speaking.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, because it's typically an order of magnitude cheaper to get the stock art, but then it's not unique. Because he can sell 10 copies to 10 people and make the same amount of money, but the all 10 of us might use it for cover. Right. Stock art carries some benefits and that is affordable. I definitely always tell starting out publishers, if your game fits a stock art niche that exists, then you can get stock art for it. Do that. That is the choice, right?
00:26:47
Speaker
If your game requires unique art, then you're just going to have to spend more on the stock art. Or learn to art. Learn to art. Like those are your options, right? I know you've also used some public domain art before, in addition to stock art. Because one of my favorite things that you've done is from Hell's Heart, which is all public domain paintings. From one artist. From one artist, yep.
00:27:16
Speaker
a Russian artist who had the greatest job title ever as master painter of the Imperial Navy. What an entire job was to travel around painting navy boats for the Russian Empire. Just going to paint ships. Paint boats. Yeah, so that that game actually sprung from that art because I found. I read an article about this artist and I was just looking at the art and I was like, there's so much of this and the scans were insanely high quality. Yeah, like some of them are like
00:27:46
Speaker
I could cover a wall with one of these pieces, some of these scans. I think one was 1200 DPI. Oh my God. It crashed my computer trying to like to load it. And I was like, this is so, and that's always kind of the risk with public domain art is sometimes the quality is so bad you can't use it. Right. Because it's a bad scan or the art's been lost or it's been linked, you know, that photocopy, photocopy, photocopy sometimes.
00:28:13
Speaker
But all of this stuff has been scanned in through public domain museums where the use is there or whatever. And so I was able to say I can art a whole book from one artist using this gorgeous like classic oil, color, painting, nails. I think it's oil. Yeah. It looks like oils. Right. Yeah. I'd have to look. But yeah. And so I use that. Right.
00:28:37
Speaker
But that was a very specific instance. A lot of other games use public domain art and the benefit of both of them is it's free. It's like stock art, but even cheaper, right? It's a drawback being it certainly is. Anybody can use it.
00:28:51
Speaker
Now, one thing that I haven't done that I have wished I was good at is the remixing of public domain art, like doing digital things to it or over it to modify it or change it to make it unique to you. I always think that's a really cool vibe. Something more cool does really well. Other, you know, games like that. Yeah. Some element of like collage or photo bashing to get it to be exactly what you want.
00:29:14
Speaker
Right. And that's the kind of thing I would at that point, you know, be paying a digital artist for, but it would be interesting to see what happens with that.
00:29:23
Speaker
Very cool. So we've, we've gone over a lot of the like basic nuts and bolts of how these things work, how, how art direction and production generally works for RPGs.
Best Art Direction Projects
00:29:34
Speaker
I do want to ask you a few questions that are more about your body of work specifically than the process itself. So of the RPGs that you have published, which one do you feel had the best art direction? Where do you feel like you really did a great job? Oh.
00:29:52
Speaker
So I'm going to give three answers to this because I think that's fair. OK. One, I think the most cohesive and well put together art direction, and I'm going to give Nick a lot of credit for this, is the Tiny Supers line. That's because that book's fantastic. The whole line is fantastic. Nick has crushed the art and he's managed to keep it consistent while also improving over the last six years we've been doing them together. I will take some credit by saying I think I got it started on a good foot with having better art direction than I had in the past.
00:30:22
Speaker
because I'm not a trained art director. This is a continually learning sort of job pedal for me. And so, but I think we managed to carry that strength through to the finish. I'm not that it's done, but, you know, we managed to keep going. I think some of the art direction I'm most happy about is it's not released yet, and I can't tell you when because I don't know, but siege perilous and Arthurian solo RPG I made.
00:30:49
Speaker
as these really gorgeous watercolor inks and pencils from Thomas Brown out of England. And a cover by John Hodgson, who is one of my favorite artists in RPG space. And I mean, the whole thing just it pops, it screams what it wants to be, this moody black and white with splashes of faded color, Arthurian tragedy. And I think it's
00:31:16
Speaker
I can't know if I can really claim my art directed it because I kind of just gave Tom a list of what I needed and let him do his thing. I don't think I gave him any feedback at all throughout the process. So I'm not sure how much art direction that was. Sometimes that's the approach that needs to happen though. You don't go in and just- I will take credit for picking the artist. There you go. I will take credit for picking the artist so I didn't have to do any work. There you go. Yeah. No, I actually came across Tom because Tom and
00:31:44
Speaker
Nimue Brown did La Morte de Arthur as a comic and it's got that very moody vibe and I love it. So, so I think, you know, those two and then I'm very happy with the game I made with Osprey called Crescendo of Violence, which is a neon noir jazz infused role playing game. I didn't.
00:32:09
Speaker
do the art direction, per se, because Osprey has an art director, but I provided the art list and like the cues I want. I'm like, I want the cover to look like a movie poster. This is how I picture it with the stacked figures and the down to the seat. And they nailed what I was going for and managed and worked with an artist to translate it very like I didn't have to give very much feedback at all. Like it was coming in. I'm like, you clearly understood what I was going for. So I was a tangential art director because, you know, there was a step removed. But I was very proud of the visual aesthetic of that game.
00:32:38
Speaker
Nice. I also like how all of those answers are so very different from each other. Like those are three, aesthetically, three very disparate projects, which that's really cool. I love visual art. I think it's, it is of all the skills I do not have.
00:32:58
Speaker
It is, I think, the one that if you said, what are you sad, like sad about, like it doesn't make me sad on a daily basis or anything. But I wish that was a thing I could do because visual art is such a fantastic and inspiring way to communicate. Like I'm always a little sad that it's not a skill I've spent time or effort developing. Yeah.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I was going to go, ah. I would say that you've definitely, through this practice of having to act as an art director, you've certainly honed your sense of aesthetics and design, even if you can't necessarily, maybe if you don't have the manual skills to do it yourself, you have definitely developed a way to communicate about art, a way to bring your vision to life, even if you're not the hand that's drawing it. And that's still pretty incredible, though.
00:33:49
Speaker
And I definitely not diminishing what I've done with that, but definitely also always kind of like, I wish I could just draw my idea, right? Right. Be the one to pick up the pencil and make it happen. But yeah, no, I have been blessed to work with really fantastic artists.
00:34:07
Speaker
So also, I stole this one from the interview with one of your fantastic artists. This is another question I stole from your interview with Nick, which is, is there a game that you've released that you look back on and would like to redo the art direction on? I mean, like it just didn't didn't quite get there and you would know how you would do it better today. Yeah, I mean, I would anything up through. I mean, Tiny Dungeon, Second Edition, I think we were. I mean, Tiny Dungeon, Second Edition was only our fourth or fifth game.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah, that was early. I ever made. And I definitely feel like just going back and applying what I know now to it, I could make something that would be way better. Like, not that anything's bad, like Anthony Kanoyer, who did the art for that is fantastic. And every piece in that book is great. I just didn't have a good idea of pacing and structure and cohesion and, you know, like how it should flow and what should be bigger or small. Like, I just didn't know.
00:35:03
Speaker
Right. And so if I were to go back and redo that, I think I would be able to do something great there. And then everything like tiny frontiers, tiny frontiers, revised, tiny wastelands that all predates tiny dungeon to me. And I would, you know. Tiny wasteland is probably the only one that I would say, maybe not, because I think that one still hangs together decently well, but I could probably do better. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, those would be that early run. I think I could.
00:35:32
Speaker
specifically for tiny D-sick. I think I could do a lot better. Nice. Yeah. And that is the thing, though, is that it's not necessarily that anything about it is wrong. It's just that you know that. Right.
00:35:42
Speaker
You know that you're at a more, you're at a more mature, developed place as an art director. So, you know, I'm sure it's the same thing for you as an artist, right? You look at a piece you did 10 years ago and go, I can pull this out of the water now. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Very rarely you'll look back at something that you did a long time ago and be like, wow, I don't know what kind of amazing energy I was channeling that day, but that really, really worked great.
00:36:07
Speaker
But for the most part, you look at anything more than like a year old and you're just like, oh gosh, no. You can make a mirror. I'm impressed. It used to be a lot shorter time frame. I think I've gotten kind of to the point in my own skill development now that it's like, yeah, a year. I go about it. I think my sense of artistic satisfaction of my work has the goldfish attention span.
00:36:34
Speaker
Oh, no. I'm happy. Click, save, walk away. I hate it. Coming back. Well, that's that's part of the process. Obviously, the moment you finish something, you want it to just be lit on fire and you think it's the worst thing that has ever been done by anyone. That's that's just part of it. I don't I don't generally feel that bad about it. And then you like walk away for a few minutes and calm down and you come back the next day and you're like, oh, yeah, that's actually fine.
00:37:03
Speaker
There's a couple of design buddies I just call and I'm like, hey, am I crazy? And they're like, no, no, no, you're fine. They're talking off the ledge. Right. Yes, that's very valuable to have those people.
00:37:14
Speaker
So is there do you have like a a like bucket list aesthetic or art direction that you have not gotten to use that you really want to?
Influence of Franco-Belgian Comics
00:37:25
Speaker
Is there something that you're like, oh, I'd love to incorporate this visual. Yes, absolutely. And I haven't found the project for it. Well, so it's funny, I actually have found the project and I'm just kind of getting rolling on it.
00:37:39
Speaker
I am a big fan of the Franco-Belgian comic style that Claire, I believe is called. Right. Yep. I love it. And I would. And like that Mobius, that Drule, that all of that sort of, you know, Valerian and Loreline, Thorgrall, right. All of that Franco-Belgian.
00:38:01
Speaker
And I would love to do like a whole line of like fantasy and science fiction and post-apocalyptic and those various styles. And so I finally have had a few ideas and I'm working with a few different artists on a few different ideas for it. But that is that means some of the first comics I read were in that medium. And it has always been an idea of mine. I've kind of kept in the back of my head and chase going, I need something.
00:38:27
Speaker
But they also have a very distinctive visual vibe to them. Like you can't just throw some like I can't just throw dungeon crawling fantasy at Mobius, right? Yeah, I'm not going to get dungeon crawling fantasy back. Mm hmm.
00:38:39
Speaker
And so the idea needs to match that. Some are some are art aesthetics. You can pair to a lot of different ideas. Some to me at least feel more limited. Like I'm sure if I went to the actual Mobius was like, I would like to do a dungeon calling RPG with you. And so for some reason there was a yes. Right. Right. Somehow. Right. So I'm pretty sure he's passed away. I think so. I'd have to go. It seems unlikely that he would say yes. Let's pretend zombie. Mobius was like, oh, that's a great name for a band zombie Mobius.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yes. All right. There's my new project. Was like, I will do a dungeon crawling RPG. I'm not going to get D&D style stuff back, right? Exactly. Yeah. It will be dungeon crawling. It will be fantastic in fantasy, but it will also be very mobious. And it will blow your mind because it will not be anything anyone has seen before.
00:39:30
Speaker
Right. And so the to me, for something like that, the idea needs to be equally good. Right. Like, do I think D&D Illustrated by Mobius would be amazing? Yes, absolutely. Right. What am I saying? No. Would would I feel comfortable with my name being the writing next to that? I don't know if I would. Right. Right. It feels like rehashing an old idea for some styles of art is less
00:39:59
Speaker
I don't want to say less good, but less interesting, maybe. Mm hmm. There's certain ways art fires your imagination and it means different things to different people. Right. Something you could do so much more with. And for me, that Ligna Claire, Franco Belgian comic style is this mix of. Sort of mind blowing, revolutionary, revolutionary. Like aesthetic that for me screams.
00:40:28
Speaker
that it is something bigger or more or different than you could ever conceive of. And so that's because for me, it was so influential when I was young. Like I stumbled into some old comics in the library and was like, what is this? This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. I think it was a lone sloane, which like wrecked my 10 year old brain. Just felt the entire top of your head open up. You're like, oh my gosh, right? Galaxy brain. Here we go.
00:40:58
Speaker
Eyes are spinning nebulas for like a week. I just I just feel like for me on a personal level, that style of art means so much to me from like how it impacted me and changed how I view things that the game I make for it would have to have that same import. Right. And I don't I don't feel that way about certain other styles. But like for me, I couldn't imagine an artist other than Nick drawing my superhero inspired because Nick's art vibes so much with the four color comics I grew up on. Oh, yeah, for sure.
00:41:26
Speaker
It matches the ideas I have of what that medium is. Right. And and that isn't going to be true for everybody. And that's OK. And I think that's fine. But for me, the final art in certain books has to be something. And there are other books I can make that can be different because D&D and dungeon calling has so many iterations in RPG space. I mean, I feel comfortable with black and white line art. I feel comfortable with full color painterly stuff. Right. There's a lot of options there. Right. That I think scream that vibe to me.
00:41:57
Speaker
Whereas with some of these other arts, I'm like, no, for me, there's mentally like, there is one vibe here. We're doing this. Right, right. So I have just a couple more questions left. I know we're getting close to the end of time here. So I know most people would not be able to name their favorite art director, which is completely fair because it's usually a pretty invisible job to most people. But is there an RPG or other tabletop game that you look at
00:42:25
Speaker
Not not one that you published, but someone else has published as like the gold standard. Greatest example of art and game design influencing and working together in a really, a really great way. So I'm going to get. Yeah, so I have a couple answers. So one, I actually do have two art directors who I deeply respect and follow the work. You would. Aaron Acevedo, who is the art director at Pinnacle Entertainment and used to run Sigil Entertainment and the art studio, Sigil.
00:42:53
Speaker
I've worked with both commissioning art from them and as a writer for him, and he is an art director who just, I don't think he knows it, because I don't think I've ever told him I should. The way he communicated with me when we were hiring him to be an art director taught me a lot about art direction.
00:43:11
Speaker
And as I got more books that he's worked on, I've been able to see what see those lessons in practice, like subconsciously. You know, at the time I didn't quite realize, but looking back, I go, oh, this is why he was doing it. You know, I'm getting it. Right. And then Alita Saxon, who was another art director who we worked with on Blue Planet Recontact from Sigil again. Same thing. I learned a lot from Alita watching her interface with artists and go back and forth with us as the publisher.
00:43:40
Speaker
And so both of their work, I'm aware of and follow and keep an eye on because I've learned a lot from them and because I've had that communication, I can see that. Nice. But a book that marries art and. Oh, that's that's a little tough. My big like it gets a little. It is it is sort of hip to be down on it right now, I think, for a lot of people, but the impact more for
00:44:08
Speaker
had on the visual aesthetic of RPGs, I think isn't something we'll fully appreciate for another 10, 15 years. Yeah. As a as a person who comes from a comics and zines background, I can't even I could probably write like a whole dissertation on the impact of work. And that doesn't mean for you as an artist or an art. Right. Right. But the visual aesthetic of that book and the way it marries with what it wants to be presenting.
00:44:37
Speaker
works really well. And there's a reason it sort of grabbed on and lit on fire when it came out, right? There's a reason people responded to it. And I think there's a lot of reasons, but I definitely think sort of the art marrying with the game is a big one, a big one. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And it's definitely, I would say, often imitated but never duplicated, right?
00:44:59
Speaker
Oh, yeah, for sure. You see a lot of people trying to emulate that art punk style. And a lot of them are they don't they don't they don't quite make it. Yeah, it's a skill set. And I mean, I certainly can't do it. And I would never pretend I could. I look at it and go, I don't know. I even can see some pieces I recognize from the public domain. I don't know how you got from here to here. But whatever you did, it was working. I just don't know.
00:45:25
Speaker
So I would say, you know, from a visual aesthetic perspective, regardless of how you feel about the game inside, I think Mark Borg is probably in the last couple of years one of the most influential. Yeah, for sure. For there, I'm trying to think if there's anything else that kind of. You know, the print, the Prince Valiant RPG, you can't get it anymore is out of print from chaos back in the day and then nocturnal media slash chaos, where it uses actual how foster Prince Valiant art throughout the whole book.
00:45:56
Speaker
I'm going to have to try to find this on eBay or something and then have to sell a kidney in order to buy it. Because that sounds so incredible, but no, I have not actually seen it. Yeah.
00:46:14
Speaker
It's definitely something that I think is worth looking at in that same vein. Very cool. So you've kind of touched on this one a little bit. This is the last official question I have for you. And this is more of a philosophical question.
Art as a Communication Tool
00:46:30
Speaker
As far as what do you consider the role of art to be in an RPG product?
00:46:38
Speaker
Is it something that is integral to the vision of the game? Is it just like a nice bonus? Is it something that's simply necessary for marketing? And I'm sure that to a certain extent that depends on the project. But. What do you feel like art should be bringing to a game? What do you think its role should be, at least? Art is another tool to just like words or layout or the the sort of production method, be it print, PDF, whatever.
00:47:06
Speaker
Art is another tool to communicate both how the game works, what it's about and what it is to the person in taking the game. It is. I mean, it's just like any some people are visual learners, some people are auditory learners, some people are learned who learn by doing right. And some people learn RPGs by reading everything, some people learn RPGs by skimming, some people learn by looking at the art. Mm hmm.
00:47:34
Speaker
And art is another step in the creative process. That comes from communicating the vision, the intent and. The sort of the holistic soul of the book or the game to the person on the receiving end. I could not see myself. And I said this, I'm going to have to eat these words. I cannot see myself unless I have a really cleverly stupid idea.
00:48:04
Speaker
making a game that does not involve art because to me it is so integral with how an RPG or a game or a creative work goes from concept to something somebody can interact with. I would, I would sooner jettison dice mechanics. The thing I would most love about RPGs than I would jettison art. Wow. That's a pretty, that's pretty strong statement.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah. It's just without art, it's just throwing dice and like that's fun. And I love that. But art to me is like. It's the it's the spice in the recipe, it's the it's the.
00:48:53
Speaker
It's that guitar solo during the rock song, right? It's the part that makes you wanna stand up and cheer. The rest of everything is so good and you love it and you don't wanna go without it. But without that last sort of spice or jazzy element, it's just not the final thing. And to me, that's art. Art is the absolute, you gotta have it.
00:49:13
Speaker
Until I come up with an idea where I can make a game without art. But it will be a very specific reason why. Right. Because now that idea is in your head and you have to rise to that challenge. Maybe it'll have spots for you to draw in your own art and make it your own. Oh, that's fun. That's a fun idea. I like that. Color in your own RPG.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah. So that was all the questions I had for you, although you typically end your interviews with doing the the little what's a question you always want someone to ask, but they never do. So if you want to, you can you can do that one. And then we also have the do you have a question for me part so. The question I would want to be so nobody ever has is I mean, there's a lot. Let's try to I'll try to confine it to art.
00:50:02
Speaker
Is there something you feel could be improved about the visual aesthetic of RPGs? Ooh, I like that. And my answer would be less letter portrait size books, do more landscape, do more square books, be more interesting and innovative with the form factor of a book. Ooh, I like that's fun. I like that.
00:50:24
Speaker
because I think like, you know, we did a small landscape scene at one point, and the whole reason we did it is so you could use it on your phone rather than having a book. And I got many messages from people who got it going, the thing's amazing on my iPad. It's the perfect size. I'm like, yeah, I know. That was the idea. That's why we did that, right? Like this was a deliberate choice. And then I had people going, I can't believe you did it landscape. And I'm like, no, landscape book still a book. It doesn't change.
00:50:53
Speaker
Right. And there's so many interesting things you can do with layout and art in a square book, like the mega dungeon we're doing square. Oh, that's fun. Right. Because I wanted it to be square. And I was like, I have this idea for us. So for me, I would love to see RPGs. And I understand the limitations and I understand why people might not. But I also think that both people purchasing consumers or fans need to be more willing to experiment with the form factor of a physical book.
00:51:21
Speaker
than they are, because I think much like Mark Borg's sort of art punk style kind of introduced this revolution of really visually innovative games. There's space for that to happen with the physical form factor as well. So that's my question. I wish that's my little soapbox. I always wish somebody would let me spout on about. If you're friends with me on personal media, you probably see me post like once a year, I'm like more square RPG books.
00:51:48
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you got a chance to do that, because I think that's really a cool idea. It's very fascinating. That's one of my favorite things about like a lot of indie comics and zines and that sort of thing is people playing with the actual like physical limitations of the medium. One of the coolest comics I ever bought was Stan Lee's Romeo and Juliet, which is like a sci-fi take on Romeo and Juliet that Stan Lee got paid to put his name on or something. I don't really know. But it was this big A, I want to say A3 landscape book. Oh, wow.
00:52:17
Speaker
And it was these big city-wide splash panels of this cyberpunk Romeo and Juliet story. Oh, that's so cool. It was gorgeous, and it was great. Yeah. Right? And it was just so visually evocative. I love seeing stuff like that. Yep. And then do I have a question for you? You know, if you could, and I might have asked this in our first episode, but that was a while ago.
00:52:43
Speaker
It was a while ago. I don't remember what you asked. Good. If you can impart any one piece of information to prospective art directors who are new or getting ready to make their first RPG, what would you tell them? So for a for a new art director, I would say that the most important thing that you can do is to try to
00:53:10
Speaker
Be as clear for yourself what your vision is. Try to figure out before you get too far along in actually commissioning art what it is that you want. And that involves a certain amount of planning. Whether that is putting together a little reference folder or a little design bible or whatever, make your little Pinterest board of stuff that you
00:53:36
Speaker
think is going in the right direction and then make like your actual very detailed list of the assets that you need in order to get your book done because there is
00:53:47
Speaker
nothing that's going to waste your time more and frustrate you and your artist more and possibly end up with unusable work or work that nobody is satisfied with than if you don't have that kind of clear vision in the first place. And it's okay to leave room for yourself to be surprised by what the artist gives you and go, oh, that wasn't really what I was looking for, but cool, I really dig this.
00:54:10
Speaker
But you don't want to be going in with just like, I don't know, just something. Give me some stuff. I need smart. Whatever. I'm going to hire you on a project where that's the art direction you're getting now. I have learned enough in my years of doing this to run away screaming when that is the direction I'm giving the smartest, probably the smartest decision you can make. I think that I think that's good advice, you know, and
00:54:40
Speaker
I would add to that, if this is your first time directing something for role-playing games or games or anything, have examples of what you envision. Find something that speaks to you that's like that and say, I want it to kind of be like this. Expecting that the artist will be able to help you change it enough that it's different, but say, this is the feeling I am going for.
00:54:58
Speaker
Right, right. Being able to use your reference to specifically say, you know, I'm looking for the mood or the tone from this piece, and I'm looking for more of the aesthetic from this piece, that sort of thing. Because sometimes I will get like, you know, mood boards from people that it's so all over the place that I'm like, what are we doing here? Like, what is this supposed to represent? Like, I'm not seeing how this all gels.
00:55:28
Speaker
I don't remember who the artist was, but I had an artist I was directing one time ask me, I said, I want this. And I showed them a picture and I was like, the colors here really. And they're like, but why do the colors work for you? And I had to stop and think about it. I was like, this is why. And answering that question, I was like, OK, the colors are making me feel this. So that's the feeling I want. So if I can communicate that feeling, I don't have to worry about the colors. Right. Right. Right.
00:55:52
Speaker
And so practice that kind of stuff. Think about it. Why is this piece of art working for me or not? So right. Cool. Well, we are in an hour, folks. Yeah.
00:56:03
Speaker
This has been your guest host, Amanda Call with Radio Free. That's me. Oh, yeah. Amanda, where can people find you on the interwebs if they want to talk to you more? They can find me on the interwebs. My website is ageofnight, A-G-E-O-F-N-I-G-H-T.com. You can also find me on all the different social medias as either Age of Night or Amanda Call Art. My last name is spelled K-A-H-L because I got to be difficult. Oh, you know.
00:56:30
Speaker
Awesome. Well, folks, you should take a look at Amanda's art and her comic, Age of Night, is fantastic, as well as the RPGs she's worked on. So, Amanda, thank you for coming on and for guest hosting and for having these questions. It was great. I was very excited to be able to do this. Yeah. Thank you so much for letting me be the interviewer for a change. I've actually never been the interviewer before. I'm always the one being interviewed, so this is really fun. Well, I would have guessed you did a fantastic job. Oh, well, thank you.
00:56:58
Speaker
Alright folks, I'm Alan Barr and this is Radio Free RPG.