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Episode 26: Sword Opera with Eli Kurtz and Eric Farmer
42 Plays13 days ago
LINK TO THE SWORD OPERA KICKSTARTER
Welcome to Season 3 of Radio Free RPG! Host Alan Bahr is joined by Eric Farmer and Eli Kurtz to discuss a variety of topics. We discuss crowdfundings and Kickstarter, game design inside constraints, podcasting, influences and ideas, and much more!
We specifically center the conversation around their current Kickstarter: Sword Opera!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Guests: Eli Kurtz and Eric Farmer
00:00:26
Northern Lights Foundry
Hello, I'm Alan Barr and welcome to Radio Free RPG. Today, I'm joined by two guests, which is a bit of a break from tradition. Previously, we've only had one guest at a time on this podcast, but they are a game designing, writing, production duo. I am joined by Eli Kurtz and Eric Farmer. Hello.
00:00:49
Eli
Hi there, thanks for having us on the show today.
00:00:52
Eric Farmer
Hey Alan.
00:00:53
Northern Lights Foundry
You don't have to do that throughout the whole podcast, Eli.
00:00:54
Eli
ah I couldn't resist, it's such a killer intro.
00:00:55
Eric Farmer
ha
00:00:59
Northern Lights Foundry
I start that way, but it falls off very quickly.
00:01:01
Eli
yeah
00:01:02
Northern Lights Foundry
It's hard to maintain.
Eli Kurtz's Journey in RPG Design
00:01:04
Northern Lights Foundry
Now I have either tangentially or been in the orbit with Eli and Eric for seven or eight years now.
00:01:13
Northern Lights Foundry
um
00:01:14
Eric Farmer
Yes.
00:01:16
Northern Lights Foundry
and And they previously have been podcasters about the RPG space, designed and released RPGs. So let's talk a little bit about your history with RPGs and making them in or being in the sphere around them. Why don't we start with you Eli and then we'll go to Eric and you can both talk about your experiences together.
00:01:38
Eli
Sure, yeah. So I started designing RPGs almost 10 years ago ah in the Savage Worlds system, and I've published several games since then. have kicks This is the fourth Kickstarter that we're running right now, and it's been pretty good. I've done a couple Savage Worlds games, a couple Forge in the Dark games. That's kind of been the main focus of my design so far, but In a lot of ways, it feels like I've been kind of learning established systems so that I can start to write more of my own. um And yeah, that's kind of the long and the short.
00:02:15
Eric Farmer
And I'm I always think that like when you play RPGs, you're constantly designing.
00:02:15
Northern Lights Foundry
Eric.
Eric Farmer's RPG Design Background
00:02:23
Eric Farmer
um And so I've been playing and designing RPGs casually for, you know, as long as I've been playing, which is a long time now. um But I really got into doing it like as a public thing.
00:02:37
Eric Farmer
ah back when the 200 word RPG contest was going on, um and i had some good had some good luck with that had some um ah was a finalist several years running. um it was a really great thing to do to put out a whole game in 200 words, and you could just get it done. And from there, I've worked on some larger projects, but mostly I've been kind of working behind the scenes. That's when Eli and I started doing the podcast. And then we've been working on projects behind the scenes, some of which, you know, the the results of which are coming out now, but it's it's been a long time coming.
00:03:22
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
About Zhongyu Hustle Podcast
00:03:23
Northern Lights Foundry
So now both of you, I found you both through Eli's game, The Blackwood Codex, and then ah your podcast, Zhongyu Hustle, which was a podcast about sort of broadly martial arts and role-playing games and movies and sort of ah kind of a conglomeration or synthesis of all of that together.
00:03:37
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:03:50
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:03:50
Northern Lights Foundry
ah
00:03:50
Eric Farmer
So it was, um, it was to study the Woosha storytelling and then apply that to role-playing games because with podcasts, there's no subject to niche.
00:04:03
Eric Farmer
So you might as well go as niches you're interested in.
00:04:03
Eli
yeah
00:04:07
Eric Farmer
And we did 30 episodes of that. Um, and I think we learned as much as we put out there.
00:04:17
Eli
Oh, yeah.
00:04:17
Eric Farmer
I think some of the lessons that we learned early, we unlearned by the end of the podcast.
00:04:23
Eli
Yeah, I went back and listened to the first episode recently, and it's really clear how much we grew through in understanding and application throughout the podcast.
00:04:34
Eli
It's really astounding.
00:04:36
Northern Lights Foundry
I think as a designer, one of the best ways to learn about RPG design is to really pick a niche and hyper focus on it as you're
Developing Sword Opera Game
00:04:45
Northern Lights Foundry
designing, right?
00:04:45
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:04:45
Eric Farmer
Mhm.
00:04:46
Northern Lights Foundry
Be it superheroes, be it, you know, in this case, ah you know, the Jonghyu Hustle podcast was very focused on sort of Chinese martial arts and romances and that kind of storytelling style.
00:04:57
Northern Lights Foundry
um and which which is a very specific subset of kind of a romantic fantasy genre that is both swashbuckling and chivalrous and romantic and you know there there's a lot to hyper focus on and you can learn a lot about designing or making a game throughout that really niche like detail oriented process so what about that made you become better game designers where did you find those applications in a niche genre are more broadly applicable outside of that genre.
00:05:34
Eli
I think um one of the things that's really been helpful for me is that our game Sword Opera, which we're kick-starting right now, is an RPG of melodrama and violence. And we are going the route of having no real default setting. We have three options in the core book. And like the art from the book is going to focus on just one of those. It's called an underworld ah setting.
00:05:59
Eli
But the other two are presented as equally viable options for players to play in. And it can be kind of deadly to say, well, my RPG can do anything because that's always a lie, right? But by focusing so much on this little genre niche,
00:06:15
Eli
We were able to find a lot of universal storytelling beats in a melodramatic mode. And so we found that it is possible, instead of making a truly generic game, to focus on a theme or a specific genre or the vibes of that genre. And then you can extrapolate from there and and start to get more of that flexibility within the playground that you've constructed for yourself.
Community's Role in RPGs
00:06:41
Eric Farmer
We also had a segment on Jung Who Hustle called Stealing As Art ah because you're never creating anything from scratch.
00:06:48
Eli
Hm.
00:06:53
Eric Farmer
And so we would take a topic and whatever would pop out for the film that we were discussing that episode, we would we would find a theme or a topic or whatever that movie did particularly well or particularly poorly, we would highlight that.
00:07:10
Eric Farmer
And then we would look at role playing games that already existed that had parts that could do that and talk about like, oh, if we were going to kind of Frankenstein this together, we could take this from powered by the apocalypse.
00:07:25
Northern Lights Foundry
Uh huh.
00:07:26
Eric Farmer
We could take this from Burning Wheel. We might e even even take something from Dungeons and Dragons. I mean, scandalous, but it's possible. And so that helped us hone in on matching a design sense with the themes that were that we were exploring. And then once we were able to step back, because it's sort of like if you have enough information, if you look at a glass of water, you could extrapolate the rest of the universe.
00:08:00
Eric Farmer
And I think looking at like a niche subset of storytelling, once you step back, you go, oh, I actually know all of these things already because I have extrapolated from this tiny set. And now I can see how it's reflected outwards in other other genres, other media, that sort of thing.
Flexibility in Sword Opera's Storytelling
00:08:23
Eli
Yeah.
00:08:23
Northern Lights Foundry
So keeping that sort of idea in mind, you know, let's talk about Sword Opera. So you're currently running a Kickstarter for a game entitled Sword Opera. ah Title sort of says it all and quite, quite elegantly.
00:08:39
Eric Farmer
I'm so glad it wasn't taken.
00:08:41
Eli
Yeah.
00:08:42
Northern Lights Foundry
ah A little surprised, frankly.
00:08:43
Eric Farmer
I will lit up me too, but hey.
00:08:45
Eli
It feels like a shoe in of a title.
00:08:45
Eric Farmer
i
00:08:48
Northern Lights Foundry
Well, um so, you know, this would be ah a cousin or a sibling in genre, probably to a lot of what you looked at in the Zhang Yu hustle era for you. um If not an outright synthesis of the exact same ideas in a lot of places.
00:09:07
Northern Lights Foundry
what What lessons have you learned through making games, playing games, studying games that you're applying here to this project that you think might help it stand out or elevate it to that level you wouldn't have been able wouldn't have been able to reach previously?
00:09:25
Eli
I gotta pause really quick. I just noticed, I'm not seeing waveforms on my end with my audio. are you Are you guys seeing them?
00:09:30
Northern Lights Foundry
I've got them for you. I've got them for you.
00:09:32
Eli
Okay, cool.
00:09:32
Eric Farmer
Yes.
00:09:33
Eli
As long as they're picking up. Okay, nevermind. Thank you for...
00:09:35
Northern Lights Foundry
I will have to figure out how to edit that out because I just usually use the auto editor in here.
00:09:39
Eli
Oh, well.
00:09:39
Northern Lights Foundry
So let me, let me mark a note there.
00:09:43
Eli
Yeah, not bad.
00:09:45
Northern Lights Foundry
It's okay.
00:09:47
Eric Farmer
All Alan, can you remind me what the question was?
00:09:51
Northern Lights Foundry
Nope. Cause I've already forgotten.
00:09:52
Eric Farmer
ha Oh.
00:09:53
Eli
It was about like how we applied
00:09:55
Northern Lights Foundry
It was what, this is all gonna stay in, I've decided. This is what they're getting.
00:09:58
Eli
ha
00:10:00
Northern Lights Foundry
I'm not even gonna.
00:10:01
Eric Farmer
No.
00:10:01
Northern Lights Foundry
So the question was, functionally, what have you learned that enables you to make tort opera today that you think were necessary steps along the path?
00:10:12
Eric Farmer
Part of it for us was so the podcast helped open us up to a larger community. of more diverse voices and designers. And we really tried to focus on, especially as we went on to making sure that the voices that we were highlighting were were more diverse. And one of the things that came with that was breaking out of a very individualistic mindset for what players do and can do.
00:10:47
Eric Farmer
in terms of and terms of play. So in most role playing games, you you have your character and that's your character and your objective is to make your character as powerful as possible. And one of the things that we were finding and in this storytelling and especially as we diversified our understanding was that there's a whole community aspect that is not very well explored in games and that a if we can represent a community and a character and their interactions, then everything becomes more vibrant and it gives you something to care about as a player.
00:11:37
Eric Farmer
that maybe you didn't before. Like, there's no premise rejection when you are part of a community that needs you. And so part of what we put into sword opera that came out of this development was making sure that the characters were situated in a world. They needed that world and the world needed them.
Enhancing RPG Mechanics for Engagement
00:12:05
Eric Farmer
And it's not like a very like flashy or exciting thing, but when you play it, it really makes a huge difference.
00:12:13
Eli
Yeah. And I'll add, one of the first things we noticed when we were designing was that we needed both the character and the group that they belong to represented in the mechanics. And that's one of the reasons why we gravitated so much toward Blades in the Dark in the course of our early development. But I think that what Eric is talking about is really us building on the relationship in Blades in the Dark. And I think like a lot of people talk about the classic gameplay loop being the GM presents information, the players respond to that information, that changes the world in some way, the GM communicates those changes, and then the players react to those changes, and so it's an endless loop of GM and players sort of vibing off of each other, riffing off of what they've done, and eventually creating this story.
00:13:01
Eli
I think in Sword Opera, we've gone so far as to say, yeah, the player characters can do what they want, they can strike out into the world, ah make their demands and take their actions, and they have freedom to do that, but they're also beholden to expectations from the group that they came from.
00:13:18
Eli
And while the players can make demands and so provide support to the structure, the structure is also providing support and making demands
Melodrama and Action in Sword Opera
00:13:29
Eli
of the player characters. And then the GM comes in and describes the changing state of the world, not just from one agent's actions, but from the tension between that cycle of the individual and the structure talking to each other. it's The way that we explore it in Blades in the Dark, ah the way that we explore it in Sword Opera is, I think, a few layers deeper than the way it's handled in Blades in the Dark in a way that has turned out to be really fun and satisfying.
00:13:59
Northern Lights Foundry
That's wonderful. So the the let's maybe, for those who haven't looked at the Kickstarter page since we started talking about it, maybe we should define sort opera. what it's about, what it is, what sort of the aesthetic might be for the game.
00:14:16
Eric Farmer
Sure. So in sword opera, you play as high powered paragons existing within a sort of liminal underworld of action and violence and romance and intrigue. And like Eli said earlier, we have several of them, but our default one is a sort of Shakespeare inspired mythical island in the Mediterranean.
00:14:41
Eric Farmer
where sword fights are common and people leap from balconies or or are just as likely to break out into song and dance and do that sort of thing. And so your characters will pursue their own ambitions, likely have some trouble there.
00:15:02
Eric Farmer
But you're very you're extremely powerful. And then like we talked about, you have your your community. So what it looks like is a swashbuckling adventure with a wirework action put on top of that.
00:15:19
Eli
Yeah, as much as we try to elide this sometimes, the naked truth is that 2001's The Musketeer was a deep inspiration for us in terms of melodrama and action.
00:15:33
Northern Lights Foundry
Why wouldn't it be? That movie is delightful on a lot of levels.
00:15:37
Eli
Yeah, and you know, it's even better muted. um
00:15:44
Eric Farmer
And if you turn up the brightness on your TV all the way, it's great.
00:15:48
Eli
No, I mean, the truth is melodramatic stories, I mean, those traditions were really cultivated during the vaudeville era, but they existed much older than that too. And the fact is melodramatic stories are very often not highbrow, nuanced, machination kind of stories. They can be about machinations and they can be about nobility or common people or whatever, but the characters are really broadly written and the,
00:16:14
Eli
the conflicts that they get into are way more emotional than intellectual a lot of the time. And we've definitely gone for that with Sword Opera. Eric was talking about how San Mercurio is inspired by William Shakespeare, equally inspired by everything from Three Musketeers to The Godfather. um Eric mentioned that We um exist in an underworld here in San Mercurio and in all of the Sword Opera settings.
00:16:42
Eli
And a really clear kind of visual reference for the underworld versus the overworld is in John Wick 2, very much not a Shakespearean swashbuckling kind of movie.
00:16:51
Northern Lights Foundry
Yes.
00:16:55
Eli
It's a very different genre, right? But when
00:16:56
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:16:58
Eli
ah Common and Keanu are walking through the busy subway and they're sniping each other with handguns and nobody around them is taking note. That's the magic of the underworld, keeping their underworld business separate from the overworld that they're walking through.
00:17:14
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:17:15
Eli
It's like a dual world situation and um San Mercurio is the underworld writ large because it's surrounded by this perpetual storm that keeps the outside world away, but on the island itself you have access to these incredible what we call power arts, which are the high flying wire foo, ESP kind of stuff. And ah you use those because the island craves the daring drama of the flash of steel. you know it's It's very ah all caps explosion in the background of the text kind of kind of gameplay.
00:17:58
Northern Lights Foundry
So with that in mind, ah
Earnestness in RPG Melodrama
00:18:03
Northern Lights Foundry
what the the style of story you're telling here is both very broad, but also very specific, right? While melodrama is a very broad spectrum of story type, it does at its core remain a relatively specific spectrum in a lot of ways.
00:18:23
Northern Lights Foundry
So what what has prompted you to define it the way you have in your game?
00:18:30
Eric Farmer
I think as I have and and basically as I've gone on, uh, I have relished the death of irony and I embrace earnestness and melodrama is the most earnest. Uh, and it's, it's,
00:18:54
Eric Farmer
People are often embarrassed to play a style of game like that where they can have a little bit of distance.
00:19:01
Northern Lights Foundry
Uh-huh.
00:19:01
Eric Farmer
But if you can really give yourself over to that melodramatic style of let's cheer for the heroes, let's boo the villains, let's get swept along in the romance, let's thrill at the action, then you know you could be really be present ah in in the game. And that's why we really leaned into the melodrama, ah because there are lots of games about violence. Almost every game is about violence, but
00:19:32
Eric Farmer
Situating that alongside melodrama gives us something really special and really fun and engaging ah in a way that sits well within RPGs.
00:19:47
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay, so ah full disclosure, I probably just said this earlier, I am a stretch school writer on this project and my goal is hit. But irrelevant of that, it was one I have sort of been helping Eric and Eli realize for the last month or two. um So when you approached people about contributing to the project, how did you communicate
Collaborators' Contributions to Sword Opera
00:20:11
Northern Lights Foundry
to that to them? Because oftentimes as a creative,
00:20:14
Northern Lights Foundry
bringing a vision to life on your own is hard, but helping somebody else see the vision the way you see it is equally difficult, if not more. So what were some of the tools you used as creatives and project managers to kind of help with that?
00:20:32
Eli
Yeah, I would say the first and most frequent tool that we've used has just been the conversation. ah We've been talking to people about the themes of Sword Opera and we've been developing the themes and the mechanics of Sword Opera for a long time. So we've really refined our communication about what the game is and what it's about.
00:20:52
Eli
And so talking to collaborators about that, we've told them, you know, this is a this is a big flashy game and it needs big flashy contributions from the collaborators.
00:21:05
Eli
And so what we're looking for here is something that doesn't leave much to the imagination, not the subtlest of pitches.
00:21:08
Northern Lights Foundry
Uh
00:21:13
Eli
We're looking for the really bright colors and loud noises.
00:21:13
Northern Lights Foundry
-huh.
00:21:17
Eli
And and we want you to kind of
00:21:21
Eli
swing for the fences in terms of getting the the tone of your underworld right or the style of your art. We wanted a lot of really dynamic movement in the art book or in the art for the game itself.
00:21:36
Eli
A lot of kind of, you know, entangled characters and various meanings of that word.
00:21:41
Northern Lights Foundry
Mm-hmm.
00:21:43
Eli
um Yeah, so I think like communicating it in general has been something that we've refined a lot, but we also have had a lot of time to clarify our vision for the game.
00:21:53
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:21:53
Eli
And I think it's been really helpful in terms of telling others about it.
00:21:56
Northern Lights Foundry
OK.
00:21:58
Eric Farmer
And we have a piece of game tech in Sword Opera that is a oh are how we build an underworld, um has developed out of another thing that we have been working on that worked great.
00:21:58
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:22:16
Eric Farmer
And so we repurposed it for building an underworld. And the the real magic of that is that it's not very long. But every single part of it is very evocative. And it gives every single part is communicating the tone and the expectation of the setting. And so what we're able to do is we're able to say, OK, here's what we've done. Here's San Mercurio. Here's its five main attributes. And under that here are some specific, very colorful, very fraught
00:22:56
Eric Farmer
you know, components, take a look at that, make something like this, but with what you're interested in. And that structure is not a ton of words.
00:23:03
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:23:08
Eric Farmer
And so it's it's easy as long as we've done our job correctly, which we which I think we have. It's you can just pass that to somebody and go, OK, take the structure, fill it out with what your own the thing is, whatever your underworld looks like and whatever is important to your underworld.
00:23:27
Eric Farmer
And then when you give it back to us, because you've put it in that format, it's basically ready to go. And it has that pick up and play thing that is valuable at the table, but also for other creators.
00:23:33
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:23:40
Eric Farmer
It also has a sort of pick up and write quality to it.
00:23:44
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay. I think that's an excellent way to put that. And I think that is a particular style of RPG development that doesn't get enough focus as something people can do. um And so I think that's very elegant and clever.
Introduction of Key Contributors
00:23:58
Northern Lights Foundry
So why don't you tell us about some of the people who aren't me who you have on the project helping you out.
00:24:04
Eric Farmer
So we're really excited. Wuxia has obviously been at the heart of this since the very beginning. And one of the things that we learned as we did Zhong Hu hustle is that a Wuxia story wasn't ours to tell.
00:24:19
Eric Farmer
And so we're really excited. We have Tansha Han, whose previous work has been with Paizo, with their Tian Sha setting. He's worked with Evil Hat and Pelgrain and a bunch of other people.
00:24:34
Eric Farmer
And he's writing a wu sha setting for us. And we basically just said, Sha Han, we trust you. Just do what you want. And he came back with three awesome settings.
00:24:43
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:24:48
Eric Farmer
And we're like, OK, well, let's take two of these and mash them together and make it extra cool.
00:24:52
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:24:53
Eric Farmer
And so Shahan is somebody that that we wanted to work with for a long time. And we're just so lucky that we got kind of our first choice when we reached out for a collaborator for a Wushaw underworld.
00:25:08
Northern Lights Foundry
okay
00:25:09
Eli
Yeah, and then in addition to Shaohan rounding out our writing team, we have an art team where we have kind of our layout designer leading the charge there. Her name is Emily Entner. She's done a layout for a lot of fun projects in the past and she's got a really evocative kind of graphic heavy style and so we're really looking forward to seeing what she can come up with that.
00:25:34
Eli
We also have our cover artist, Guinevere Singley, is a Brooklyn based artist who works in traditional and digital media, both art pieces and comics, including web comics. um So has a really good knack for body composition and posing and all kinds of really fun stuff that I think is going to make an awesome dynamic cover.
00:25:56
Eli
And then for interior art, we're working with an artist who's new to us, Jack Taylor, who's got a really promising style that also mixes some traditional art and webcomic stuff in a really fun way. And then Galen Peugeot is rounding out our interior art team. We've known Galen forever. We always love the chance to collaborate. And so we were thrilled but when this worked out.
00:26:22
Eli
ah
00:26:22
Eric Farmer
It was one of those things that like Galen kept going like, Oh, I can only do a little bit.
00:26:23
Eli
and so
00:26:27
Eric Farmer
I can only do a little bit. And then he's like, Oh, I really like drawing swords and cool people dueling and stuff. And so we kinda, we kinda got him in that way. He couldn't resist.
00:26:37
Eli
Yeah, yeah, it was good.
00:26:39
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:26:39
Eli
It was like, Oh, I'm not super available, but hey, here's a free piece. And oh, wait, here's another cool piece. That's just a fun doodle. And maybe I can expand it. And it's like, yeah, dude, let's, let's work together. That sounds great. oh
00:26:50
Northern Lights Foundry
I've worked with Galen myself on quite a few projects and he is one of my favorite artists to collaborate with. He's a very collaborative style.
00:26:57
Eli
Totally.
00:26:57
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:26:58
Eli
Yeah.
00:26:58
Eric Farmer
And we've been having a lot of fun. We haven't had a chance to work with Gwen that closely yet because we don't because the kickstart is still ongoing and but we're super excited for her stuff.
00:27:10
Eric Farmer
And then Jack's work is we went through so many artists trying to find somebody who could really convey motion and dynamism because a lot of RPG art is amazing, but a lot of it is also very static.
00:27:26
Eric Farmer
It's three people standing in a heroic pose, and that's awesome.
00:27:31
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:27:31
Eric Farmer
But our game needs to convey motion and emotion.
00:27:36
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:27:36
Eric Farmer
And I think Jack really nails that.
Stretch Goals and Additional Contributions
00:27:40
Eli
Yeah, we've worked with Jack on one piece that you can see on the Kickstarter page already, and we're really excited to work with him on additional pieces. It's been great to see the behind the scenes process, like almost immediately he had a Pinterest board with some really incredible combinations of like dance photography and Renaissance art and all of these super interesting ah pairings and groupings of people. And so I think it's just going to be incredible art on the inside.
00:28:07
Eli
And I also want to make sure that we shout out editor Lexi Antoku, who I pretty sure has edited all of my projects except the very first one at this point. I really love working with Lexi and excited to do that again.
00:28:19
Eli
um I also want to add the praise to Xiao Han. He's the type of guy where like we've talked to him three or four times, and every time we are learning something new to us about Wuxia or melodramatic storytelling the entire time. and like Eric and I spent years consuming this media and talking about it. We're not experts, but we're not novices either. And and to talk with Xiaohan and to constantly be getting new context or like a different perspective to think about this stuff, it's been so cool.
00:28:55
Eric Farmer
um And then we have some fun stretch call writers as well. In addition to you, Alan, we're very excited for Cape City, if that that will if we can make it there. um But we also have Emma Costa, who's doing a kind of science fantasy.
00:29:13
Northern Lights Foundry
Thank you.
00:29:16
Eric Farmer
Western. ah Setting, it's going to be weird and it's going to be cool.
00:29:19
Eli
Yeah. who Yeah, and then Ali Grouwer and Drew Murzieski as well are going to be collaborating on an additional underworld that is kind of a regency era, romanticy, fae meets ah country manor homes and cotillions and balls and midnight rendezvous and everything. I think i I've known both of them for a very long time and I have such a huge respect for the depth of their knowledge about
00:29:54
Eli
historical romance and historical storytelling in general, but specifically the Regency period. And i I personally have not paid a whole lot of attention to that genre. Eric's a little better read in that regard than me, but when we got the original pitch from them, Eric clocked immediately. He's like, oh, these kind of core elements that they're showing us correspond with the four major ah veins of Regency era storytelling.
00:30:19
Eli
And blew my mind. I didn't know that. But when I saw it, I was like, Oh, what what casual brilliance on display from these like friends and former collaborators of mine.
00:30:31
Eli
And yeah, Alan, do you want to give us a little bit of ah a taste of kayfabe city? Can you can you spill any?
00:30:36
Northern Lights Foundry
I don't feel the need to. I normally don't sort of promote myself on my own podcast. Let's talk about you guys.
00:30:41
Eric Farmer
You're not promoting yourself. You're promoting our pod, our Kickstarter.
00:30:44
Northern Lights Foundry
ah oh So Cape Ape City is inspired by 90s wrestling and 90s arcade fighter video games where the behind the scenes wrestling drama pleads into the ring and vice versa.
00:30:46
Eli
Yeah, that's it.
00:31:01
Northern Lights Foundry
I love wrestling.
00:31:02
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:31:02
Northern Lights Foundry
I love fighting games. That's about it.
00:31:04
Eli
Yeah. I'm, I'm so excited for like streets of rage, but everybody's a wrestler instead of everybody's a cop.
00:31:11
Eric Farmer
yeah
00:31:11
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:31:11
Eli
ah
00:31:13
Northern Lights Foundry
Well, and it's wrestling, so you could be all of it too.
00:31:16
Eli
Yeah, sure.
00:31:17
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:31:17
Northern Lights Foundry
Like the best part about it, who knows?
00:31:17
Eli
Yeah.
00:31:19
Northern Lights Foundry
Or you could be like a demon from the underground.
00:31:19
Eli
Wrestler in a cop costume.
00:31:21
Eric Farmer
Mm hmm.
00:31:23
Eli
That's going to be great.
00:31:24
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah.
00:31:25
Eli
That's going to be great.
00:31:25
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah. Well, so part of the genesis of the idea was when you, you guys had brought me on a little bit to help with some of the, setting up the Kickstarter project management, getting some, cause you had been a few half a decade or so since your last project.
00:31:38
Northern Lights Foundry
That was a large crowdfunding goal. And so, you know, I sort of just help answer some new questions that might've developed or, you know, hey, this has changed, be aware, whatever.
00:31:47
Eli
Mhm.
00:31:50
Northern Lights Foundry
And when you, when you pitched me the idea, my immediate thought was, of course, you know, Wuxia, which you guys discussed at Nauseam, right? um And my second you thought was, I mean, kayfabe and the Zhongyu are basically the same concept, just a plight, right?
00:32:05
Eric Farmer
Absolutely.
00:32:07
Northern Lights Foundry
And wrestling is about a little dramatic. I'm like, so why isn't there a wrestling one? And I was like, Hey, Hey, if you need stretch goals, I'm your man.
00:32:11
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:32:15
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:32:15
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:32:15
Eli
who
00:32:15
Eric Farmer
and And we need an expert in wrestling that Eli and I aren't like I'm a casual wrestling consumer and.
00:32:24
Eli
Yeah. Every time, every time a friend sends me a wrestling reel, I will give it the the flexed arm emoji, but otherwise that's about my exposure.
00:32:25
Northern Lights Foundry
I. know
00:32:35
Northern Lights Foundry
Well, I, uh, I, and this is a whole different conversation, but I have long advocated that if you want to be a better GM and game designer, you should be, uh, you should be studying how pro wrestling tells stories.
00:32:49
Eli
Mhmm.
00:32:49
Eric Farmer
Oh, I absolutely agree with that.
00:32:50
Northern Lights Foundry
Regardless of anything else.
00:32:51
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:32:51
Eli
Mhmm. Yeah. Well, and you know, there was an episode of our podcast. I can't remember what the number was. It was in the tens, I think, but, um, we basically compared wu-sha to other similar melodramatic genres.
00:33:05
Eli
And somehow I don't think we managed to cover wrestling, which glaring oversight on our part, if we didn't.
00:33:12
Eric Farmer
I think part of that was because we were mostly like a film based show and.
00:33:12
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah.
00:33:17
Eli
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:33:19
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay. But hold on.
00:33:24
Northern Lights Foundry
There are plenty of wrestling films. The Wrestler.
00:33:27
Eli
it's It's very true.
00:33:28
Eric Farmer
Right. the
00:33:28
Eli
And like, for example...
00:33:30
Northern Lights Foundry
Ready to rumble.
00:33:30
Eli
um Well, and GLOW, ah the Netflix series.
00:33:31
Northern Lights Foundry
Don't watch it, but it's there.
00:33:36
Eli
Like, one of the things I really appreciated about that show is that...
00:33:36
Northern Lights Foundry
Right. Or the documentary that Glow is based on is fantastic.
00:33:42
Eli
Oh, yeah, absolutely. um But yeah, one of the things I really appreciate about Glow that i I don't know that I've seen in much other media about wrestling is that you really get the audience perspective as well as the camera's perspective, right?
00:33:58
Eli
Like like there will be entire episodes of that show that are as if you're watching
00:33:58
Northern Lights Foundry
right
00:34:04
Eli
the production of wrestling that they're putting on.
00:34:06
Northern Lights Foundry
yeah
00:34:06
Eli
And I love to get that perspective on it. um And it's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about KFib City, because it feels like both the camera and the audience will be properly united in that underworld.
Challenges in RPG Narrative Duels
00:34:18
Northern Lights Foundry
Well, and one of the things I often advocate for about RPGs that makes them unique is that the audience is carrying the burden of authorship alongside the author, um which is also true in wrestling.
00:34:29
Eric Farmer
Mm hmm.
00:34:29
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:34:32
Northern Lights Foundry
It's one of the few mediums, I think, that has a comparable equivalency in audience authorship of the story.
00:34:39
Eric Farmer
I also think that it's um i I remember I was watching wrestling with my mother in law.
00:34:39
Northern Lights Foundry
And so...
00:34:46
Eric Farmer
OK, I swear the story is going somewhere.
00:34:47
Northern Lights Foundry
Good.
00:34:50
Eric Farmer
um And she was like, oh, gosh, those announcers talk so much. And I said, oh, no, they're reinforcing the story that's going on, as opposed to when you watch like a live sporting event, those people are narrativizing.
00:35:01
Northern Lights Foundry
the Right.
00:35:09
Eric Farmer
A non narrative thing.
00:35:12
Northern Lights Foundry
Yes.
00:35:12
Eric Farmer
um And so one of the things that has recently, not recently, we've always had it in mind. um but we were talking about the the dueling mechanics in Sword Opera. And one of the big things about a duel is that it's between two people and it's kind of boring for everybody else.
00:35:33
Eric Farmer
But it's not boring if you get to be a participatory audience member that has some authority.
00:35:33
Northern Lights Foundry
Absolutely.
00:35:37
Northern Lights Foundry
Great.
00:35:40
Eric Farmer
And I think that's what you can see in ah in wrestling of like a participatory audience. And I remember when I played ah worldwide wrestling with Nathan Paleta and he goes, oh, I have this run in move.
00:35:57
Eric Farmer
So if you're not wrestling right now, this is the I'm bored right now move. I would like to do a run in. And I was like, Oh, what, you know, what a great release valve for your players who are, are being an audience, but aren't necessarily told how to be an audience.
00:36:05
Northern Lights Foundry
money Yes.
00:36:19
Northern Lights Foundry
Yes.
00:36:19
Eli
who Yeah.
00:36:20
Eric Farmer
And it's such a like, it's such a ah mindset. We teach people how to, we've gotten better at teaching people how to play actively rather than teaching people to play reactively.
00:36:30
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:36:30
Eric Farmer
And Sword Opera is a very player active game.
00:36:34
Northern Lights Foundry
sure
00:36:34
Eric Farmer
And we don't want to take that away from them when it's not their scene.
00:36:38
Northern Lights Foundry
Right. So let's talk about that. So because, you know, from a narrative standpoint, if Eric and I are engaging in a sword duel to a degree, you know, let's say I am the honorable sort of duelist who will brook no cheating or interference.
00:36:54
Northern Lights Foundry
Right. And, you know, maybe Eric, the NPC is, uh, not to relegate Eric to it.
00:37:00
Eric Farmer
um I'm a filthy, I'm a, I'm a filthy blaggard. I, I will cheat.
00:37:03
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:37:04
Eric Farmer
I'll, uh, I'll, I'll say vicious slanders against your patronage.
00:37:04
Northern Lights Foundry
Yes.
00:37:07
Northern Lights Foundry
Exactly. So how does your proactive player stance, which I think is excellent, and I don't want to take away from that, but how do you square the challenge of that with the narrative demands of the honorable sort of one-on-one duel that the melodrama genre sort of ah defaults to if you're going to default to something like that, right? The default is sort of one person's probably honorable, one person's probably not. And in this case, the protagonist is probably the honorable one, which means they're probably the player.
00:37:36
Eric Farmer
I guess I mean, I haven't met an honorable player character in 20 years, but you know. um um But well.
00:37:42
Eli
ah
00:37:44
Northern Lights Foundry
So right, I would be offended, but I just called you an MPC. So I don't have a license going on.
00:37:50
Eric Farmer
um I also don't play nearly as much Pendragon as you do. um But the.
00:37:54
Northern Lights Foundry
That'll change your perspective on things.
00:38:00
Eric Farmer
the power that we give to the audience is that they get to help control the flow of what's going on. So they actually get to control who goes next.
00:38:11
Eric Farmer
Like that's not up to you. It's not it's not it's not your mechanic.
00:38:13
Eli
Yeah.
00:38:13
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay.
00:38:15
Eric Farmer
It's who are we feeling right now? Who do we want to see more from? That's who's going to get to go next or this person's gotten um yeah now has the upper hand.
00:38:25
Eric Farmer
And so we're we're always rooting for the underdog. So we want to make sure that the underdog has a chance to come back. Right. And so the audience isn't.
00:38:32
Eli
Yeah.
00:38:35
Northern Lights Foundry
So, well, so i I see where you're going with this and I like it, but I, you know, how do you, how does the game guard rail against the, let's squish this guy quick, right?
00:38:35
Eric Farmer
Go ahead.
00:38:48
Eric Farmer
Mm hmm.
00:38:49
Eli
Yeah.
00:38:49
Northern Lights Foundry
By having all the players just give Alan initiative repeatedly or something, right?
00:38:51
Eric Farmer
Mm hmm.
00:38:53
Northern Lights Foundry
Do you have guard rails or is the game saying, that's how you want to play it. That's how you're going to play it. Done our job to tell you, no, we don't recommend it. Right.
00:39:00
Eli
Yeah, so I'll say I think um one of the main ways that the dueling rules specifically, but really generally the dice mechanic works that kind of makes that a challenge is that we really assume success in the dice roll. If you are going to fail in the action that you attempt, it's what you choose to avoid a consequence.
00:39:22
Eli
And so automatically, if you roll the dice, you're going to succeed.
00:39:22
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay.
00:39:26
Eli
And generally what we wanted that to mean in the game is that in a melodramatic context, in a context where you're high powered and ah a lot of people around you are sort of mundane, you're going to be a cut above everyone else.
00:39:40
Eli
And so the question of will you succeed or not is not particularly interesting. The the more interesting question there is what's going to cost you? And so to bring that back to a duel, whether it's between a PC and an NPC, or whether it's between two PCs, every time they roll the dice, they're not saying, will I succeed at taking an action against this person?
00:40:02
Eli
It's how much is it going to hurt me to take an action against this person? How much stress am I going to accumulate? What kind of harm am I going to get?
00:40:09
Northern Lights Foundry
What are you willing to pay for success?
00:40:11
Eli
Yeah, and like, if I don't narrate this in the right way, then the rest of the players who are collectively playing the role called the arena, they they are the environment in the audience alike.
00:40:11
Eric Farmer
Hmm.
00:40:23
Eli
If I don't narrate this in the right way, then maybe they're going to think that I'm no longer worthy of the momentum of this duel. And they're going to take it away from me and give it to my enemy. And I'm going to be suddenly shifting into a defensive mode in the next round.
00:40:37
Eli
which limits my options and and gives me a new dramatic circumstance to respond to. And so we really try to force that question of how much are you willing to take a beating for this?
00:40:52
Eli
and then let the players decide, do I want to keep going another round of this duel? Or is it maybe time for me to push for a decisive end, or negotiate an end to the duel, or just fall on my knees and beg for mercy? All of these are mechanical options in a duel scene, and all of them create really compelling drama, not only in the scene, but also afterward for several scenes later.
00:41:18
Eric Farmer
But in terms of guardrails, I mean, I think the mechanics themselves are the guardrails. But if I gave you a Ferrari and you decide to drive five miles under the speed limit in the Ferrari, if you want to have a boring time, like I can't stop you.
00:41:38
Eric Farmer
I have given you all of the tools to have a really fun time. So, you know, but at some point there, there is, you know, there's things that you can't defend against.
00:41:49
Eric Farmer
You just go, okay, I hope you're playing in good faith. That's all we're gonna, that's what we're going to assume.
00:41:53
Northern Lights Foundry
Right.
00:41:54
Eli
Yeah. Another mechanic I want to shout out that I think we had solidified in the dueling rules but we realized it needed to be a more basic sort of thing. um The arena, like I said, is the collective rest of the players and they make commentary on the fight. they deal out boons and drawbacks and stuff. They can assign additional stakes or like possible outcomes of the duel. There's all kinds of stuff they can do do that makes them really active participants. um Eric ran a demo game for some friends a couple of weeks ago.
00:42:28
Eli
And we were all we just set everything up it was the noble ball you know we're all having a good time and then our hated rival family walks in and he's describing the head of the Royal or of the noble family that we utterly despise and all of the players spontaneously started booing.
00:42:46
Eli
And then Hunky Froomeo walks in later and he's such a dreamboat. He's so pretty and he's so stupid. We all started cheering and swooning over Hunky Froomeo just as players were like participating as an audience in that way.
00:42:57
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:42:58
Eli
And we realized, oh, so much of the game in specific ways points you toward making your statements even when you're not in the spotlight. So what we're gonna do is add a content tool where ah we already have one about camera techniques that's both like ah Bo Jager Sheldon's um ah VCR button.
00:43:19
Eric Farmer
Script change.
00:43:22
Eli
Yeah, script change tool that lets you fast forward and rewind as needed. But it's also like camera close ups or wide shots or flashbacks or scene transitions or something, you know.
00:43:34
Eli
And so we added something where you are explicitly called to cheer and boo and ooh and ah as an audience member if you are not actively involved in the scene.
00:43:42
Northern Lights Foundry
Sure.
00:43:45
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay. hey that That sounds like a great tool to me.
Closing Remarks and Kickstarter Call to Action
00:43:50
Eli
Yeah. And it's fun. Like I've always thought of content tools, not as safety tools per se. Like they do create safety, but they're capable of so much more. And just an invitation to behave in the way that the game really thrives, uh, when you participate that way is kind of what I see a content tool is doing.
00:44:07
Northern Lights Foundry
sure
00:44:08
Eli
It, it calibrates the content to what the game does best.
00:44:15
Northern Lights Foundry
That's a great way to put it, I think. So we're coming up on the end of time here. I generally end with a few specific questions, which unfortunately I did not brief you on, so I apologize.
00:44:25
Northern Lights Foundry
If you're caught off guard, feel free to pass.
00:44:26
Eric Farmer
yeah
00:44:27
Eli
surprise questions
00:44:27
Eric Farmer
Lightning round.
00:44:29
Eli
yeah
00:44:29
Northern Lights Foundry
Now, normally I give people advance notice and we sort of threw this together last minute because the Kickstarter was live and I don't know why I didn't think of it and I just didn't give you my usual packet.
00:44:38
Eric Farmer
That's fine.
00:44:38
Northern Lights Foundry
um So um I generally ask three questions. The first question is gonna be about games or media that particularly influenced you here. No, we touched on the musketeer.
00:44:49
Northern Lights Foundry
So I'd like you to lean maybe towards non Blades of the Dark sort of role-playing games.
00:44:53
Eli
Hmm, surprise questions.
00:44:54
Northern Lights Foundry
Is there another role-playing game that had some of the ideas you discussed that was influential, what have you? The next question is, if people want to get to know you better, recommend them like a piece of media, an RPG, a movie, music, whatever.
00:45:05
Northern Lights Foundry
And then the third question is, I'm going to ask you what's a question you've never been asked, and then I'm going to ask it.
00:45:11
Eric Farmer
Oh, okay.
00:45:12
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah.
00:45:12
Eli
Oh.
00:45:14
Eric Farmer
That's a tough one.
00:45:14
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah.
00:45:14
Eric Farmer
That's that one. That one we'll have to think about.
00:45:15
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah, that's that's the hard one.
00:45:17
Eli
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:17
Northern Lights Foundry
um And then I'll let you ask me some questions if you want.
00:45:17
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:45:19
Northern Lights Foundry
so Here we go. What each of you just give me a quick, what's an RPG that influenced how you approach and design RPGs?
00:45:31
Northern Lights Foundry
Skipping over blades of the dark because we discussed that one.
00:45:31
Eric Farmer
Um, I think that, um, the, I find them really influential, but I don't necessarily like want to play them all the time or like the burning wheel family of games.
00:45:48
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay.
00:45:48
Eric Farmer
Um, because they have a very,
00:45:53
Eric Farmer
You play them the way that they are written and you will get the outcome that is expected and. Like sometimes that sort of authorial stance is a little heavy, um but I do find some of the concepts in there like really interesting. And so we've, I've, we have a, one thing that we haven't talked about is goals and principles, which are kind of the beating heart of sword opera. Your characters have active goals that they pursue. And then when they are resolved, either through success or failure,
00:46:31
Eric Farmer
they harden into principles, which are things that you believe, and then you are rewarded for enforcing your belief on the world. um And that is like me in dialogue with Burning Wheel, saying, I see what you did. Here's what I want to do with this to give players the tools that they need.
00:46:58
Eric Farmer
Um, so I think like it's not a hugely popular game now because it is a lot of work. Um, but, uh, I do find it like interesting and provocative and I was provoked.
00:47:11
Eli
Mm hmm.
00:47:13
Northern Lights Foundry
I feel the same about Bernie Will as one that I hold high in my canon of influential texts, even just from reading.
00:47:18
Eric Farmer
Yes. Right.
00:47:21
Eli
Yeah. I think for me, it's really hard to narrow it down. The way that I approach design today has been inspired by so many games that have come out in the past five years and just blown my mind about what's capable in terms of rules and narrative. But a game that I want to make sure that we shout out for Sword Opera specifically is Swords Without Master by Eppie Ravichall.
00:47:42
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:47:44
Eli
Specifically, that game is so good at being a lightweight narrative engine, and I think one of the things that really helps it sing is the idea that the GM ah sounds the thunder to bring the storm, and the players show that the storm is a worthy opponent by slipping and struggling against it.
00:48:05
Eli
the idea that like to be a good and effective protagonist or hero in these action-packed stories you need to fight a worthy foe and you as a player can help make your foe seem more formidable and then your glory is all the greater when you overcome them.
00:48:07
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay.
00:48:26
Eli
And I think a lot of what we've implemented into swords or sword opera um In large and small ways, all throughout the text really reinforces that idea that like, hey, you are a critical component in making this story amazing or not. And the extent to which you make it seem like you're up against really impressive stuff is a factor there. The more that you show us how daunting your obstacles are, the more we cheer for you and you inevitably succeed.
00:48:56
Eric Farmer
And I think there's so many things that Swords of that Master does, right? I think we could talk for another hour just about Swords of that Master um but in terms of like economical provocative use of language and
00:49:04
Eli
Yep.
00:49:10
Eric Farmer
how parts of the game involve issuing a challenge to another player that we've taken that into sword opera as well. And it's just in terms of controlling tone and getting an outcome that you want. It's just one of the best there is.
00:49:32
Northern Lights Foundry
I couldn't have said that better. So if you want to recommend something to people that they can experience that helps them kind of get to know you as an individual, what would you recommend? We'll start with the Eli this time.
00:49:44
Eli
Um, I think realistically you should go camping in a national park, uh, car camping, wilderness camping doesn't matter, but in terms of more accessible opportunities.
00:49:52
Northern Lights Foundry
but i think I think that's a great idea. I mean, there's actual parks everywhere.
00:49:56
Eli
Okay. Yeah.
00:49:57
Northern Lights Foundry
I think that's excellent.
00:49:58
Northern Lights Foundry
ah I would add, you should play a solo RPG while you're doing it, probably. It's a great time to do it.
00:49:58
Eli
Cool.
00:50:03
Eli
Oh, a hundred percent.
00:50:04
Northern Lights Foundry
Just be be by yourself experiencing a story that you are the author of fully.
00:50:09
Eli
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:50:12
Northern Lights Foundry
ah Eric?
00:50:13
Eric Farmer
Oh, I was going to recommend a movie and now I feel like ah a
00:50:15
Northern Lights Foundry
ah No, please.
00:50:18
Eric Farmer
um
00:50:20
Eric Farmer
um Well, I'll do a couple of things. I think you should consume broadly. OK, I think you should read as much as you can. Go to museums. Go out for hikes. Do ah do do everything that you can to like broaden yourself that way. Consume types of media that you wouldn't normally consume.
00:50:42
Eric Farmer
To get to know me specifically, you should watch The Magic Blade, which is a ah Shaw Brothers Wushaw movie that is I just find really inspiring. It has that Shaw Brothers kind of shankiness that I really like. It's very stagey.
00:51:06
Eric Farmer
And it's very especially if you watch the subtitled version, it has a real like consistent tone ah that I find very, very inspiring. It's very liminal. And it makes even when you are clearly on some kind of set, it makes it feel like you could still just like walk out that door and an entirely different world is there.
00:51:32
Eric Farmer
And, um, I it's, I don't think it's like an exceptional movie in any particular way, except that I really like it.
00:51:33
Eli
Mmhmm.
00:51:43
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay. And ah the final question, what is one question you've always wanted to be asked that you've never been asked in an interview? And this one is the hard one and I forgot to inform you. So if you don't have one, that's totally fine.
00:52:01
Eli
The question I always ask people just in conversation if I'm getting to know somebody new is what do you do for fun? I hate the icebreaker question, what do you do for work? It's so boring to me. I'd much rather know what somebody does for fun. And almost always the answer is, what's fun? And I'm like, how dare you forget?
00:52:21
Northern Lights Foundry
well All right, so what do you do for fun?
00:52:24
Eli
ah ah Well, I mentioned camping already. um The way that I get my endorphins ah from exercise lately is sword fighting. So I'm really walking the sword opera walk. Used to do theater, currently sword fighting. I am myself the synthesis of this game.
00:52:45
Northern Lights Foundry
Uh, Eric.
00:52:46
Eric Farmer
Um, I think what do you want to do after this project is over?
00:52:57
Northern Lights Foundry
So what do you want to do after this project is over?
00:52:59
Eric Farmer
I want to do so many things. Uh, I want to, uh, sword opera has been great. I loved working on it. I love working with Eli. Um, but it's been literally years in the making.
00:53:13
Eric Farmer
and I want to play more games. I want to have like i want to just play, just as a player, play a game. I also want to pursue other creative endeavors like music, like some crafts. Find something interesting that will give me a new place to expand into.
00:53:37
Eric Farmer
Um, and I, so I've got, I've got my music stuff already. I got a little, like a little false start on it and it's ready to go. As soon as we're ready here, I can put the time in and that that's just what's going to be going forward. And then if another game idea comes to me, that's worth working on, then I'll work on that.
00:53:59
Northern Lights Foundry
Okay, I think that's a great answer. As we wrap up, any questions for me?
00:54:04
Eli
What do you do for fun?
00:54:08
Northern Lights Foundry
ah You don't want me to answer that because the answer is probably I work or play RPGs.
00:54:11
Eli
Yeah. yeah
00:54:14
Northern Lights Foundry
I actually letter her comics. um I find it quite relaxing, so I do comic lettering.
00:54:20
Eli
Very cool.
00:54:20
Northern Lights Foundry
like a site like it's It's a little worky because I do it for work, but I find it fun and relaxing and engaging to do in the time I do it. so
00:54:28
Eli
Do you hand draw?
00:54:28
Northern Lights Foundry
and't really i I can hand letter, a lot of lettering I do today is done digitally because that's usually how files are being delivered back and forth nowadays.
00:54:34
Eli
Sure.
00:54:39
Northern Lights Foundry
So like I'd have to print them out in color, not ruin the colors, scan them back, that kind of thing, right? so
00:54:45
Eli
Yeah, that makes sense. That's cool though.
00:54:47
Northern Lights Foundry
um Or print them in black and white and then try not to ruin the art. So a lot of it's just done digitally because it's easier to make corrections or fixes, what have you. um But i I do have hand lettering tools, some right here, and I can do that.
00:54:55
Eli
Sure.
00:55:00
Northern Lights Foundry
I just was not, lot not a lot of call for it as much.
00:55:04
Eric Farmer
So you have moved much closer to me.
00:55:07
Northern Lights Foundry
Yes, that is true.
00:55:08
Eric Farmer
I would like to know um what is um what's something you miss from where you used to live and what's something that you appreciate about where you currently live.
00:55:20
Northern Lights Foundry
So I miss our previous house and that's mostly because we had, uh, when we When we moved in 2020 to Fargo, North Dakota, we were able to buy a house that was relatively new and it didn't require much upkeep. The house is in the area we moved to are less relatively new and they require much more upkeep.
00:55:38
Northern Lights Foundry
um So, which yeah when I see you next weekend, Eric, we could talk about that, but it's been a long few weeks. It's a lot of house upkeep.
00:55:50
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:55:51
Northern Lights Foundry
So like today, replacing a ceiling fan out of nowhere.
00:55:54
Eric Farmer
o Yeah, sure.
00:55:55
Northern Lights Foundry
So stuff like that. I would like a little less of that. Like, uh, I miss my house. I didn't meet me do all that stuff.
00:56:01
Eli
I've had a, I've had a ceiling fan in that closet for a month or two now, just waiting to be installed and I don't want to go through it. So sympathy.
00:56:10
Northern Lights Foundry
It's super easy. It's honestly not that bad. Like that's true.
00:56:12
Eric Farmer
It's super easy if you have the right fixture already in the ceiling.
00:56:18
Eli
Oh, sure. Yeah.
00:56:19
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah. Yeah. Or you know how to do it.
00:56:22
Eric Farmer
right
00:56:23
Eli
Yeah.
00:56:24
Northern Lights Foundry
Um, one thing I like about the new place, I quite the, the environment here, there's a lot more trees, which I quite like, uh, the weather's a little more mild.
00:56:30
Eric Farmer
You're right.
00:56:33
Northern Lights Foundry
There's quite happily, uh, mid Wisconsin has been kind of in some ways, the physical and natural environment I've always been looking to live in. It hits a lot of the, it hits a lot of the buttons I really like about living in places.
00:56:43
Eric Farmer
It's a really nice area.
00:56:48
Eli
Yeah.
00:56:48
Northern Lights Foundry
Um,
00:56:48
Eli
Are you like properly in the North woods or are you a little south of that?
00:56:52
Northern Lights Foundry
um I'm, uh, I'm like two hours north of Madison, kind of right in the middle of the state.
00:56:56
Eli
Okay, cool. Yeah.
00:56:58
Eric Farmer
He's in a really nice area that has a lot of ah glacial features um that like a lot of hills and things that have gotten mashed up by glaciers and that sort of thing.
00:56:58
Northern Lights Foundry
So.
00:57:04
Eli
Yeah.
00:57:10
Eli
It's gorgeous.
00:57:10
Eric Farmer
It's a really pretty area.
00:57:11
Northern Lights Foundry
Yeah. Lots of trees, big old fields of trees. And so it is really nice.
00:57:17
Eli
We love it.
00:57:18
Northern Lights Foundry
Um, so I like that. And honestly, cheese, there's a lot of cheese here and that's great.
00:57:21
Eric Farmer
Oh, my gosh.
00:57:24
Northern Lights Foundry
I don't drink anymore, so the beer doesn't matter to me, but the cheese is awesome. And ice cream.
00:57:30
Eric Farmer
Oh, yeah.
00:57:31
Northern Lights Foundry
If you had told me, like, because there's a place in town where they won best ice cream at the World Dairy Expo for several years running, which did not know that was even a thing, right?
00:57:36
Eric Farmer
Oh.
00:57:40
Northern Lights Foundry
ah And this ice cream, how much different can it be? It's all kind of made with the same stuff. That is a lie.
00:57:45
Eric Farmer
Oh, yeah.
00:57:45
Northern Lights Foundry
It is very different. There is, I had some and I was like, nope, there this is, yep, if I get it. I i see.
00:57:51
Eric Farmer
All right.
00:57:52
Northern Lights Foundry
So, but they're closed for the cold season, so I can't go there.
00:57:55
Eric Farmer
Oh, nuts.
00:57:57
Northern Lights Foundry
I know I tell you that right before you come up here, by the way.
00:57:57
Eli
Too bad.
00:57:58
Eric Farmer
Oh, I was like, a awesome field trip.
00:57:59
Northern Lights Foundry
but Yeah, not even much of a filter. I think it's two blocks from my house, which is going to be really dangerous when they open in the summer. Walk the dog down there a couple times a day.
00:58:08
Eli
luck
00:58:09
Eric Farmer
Oh, yeah.
00:58:10
Northern Lights Foundry
No, it's hot. I better get an ice cream cone.
00:58:15
Northern Lights Foundry
um Eli, Eric, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much for coming on Radio Free RPG. ah Folks, we're going to push this episode out pretty quickly. The link to the Kickstarter will be in the show notes. um But if you hear it, ah go look up Sword Opera. I believe you guys will have a late, late backing option.
00:58:33
Eli
Yeah.
00:58:33
Eric Farmer
We, yeah, we have to look into it.
00:58:33
Eli
Yeah. For a couple of our tears.
00:58:35
Eric Farmer
Yeah.
00:58:36
Northern Lights Foundry
Excellent. Yep. So even if you miss it, you'll still be able to find it. Regardless of any involvement from me or other people, it is a game that has a lot of thought, time, and effort put into it, and I cannot recommend it enough.
00:58:47
Northern Lights Foundry
So ah go take a look.
00:58:47
Eric Farmer
Well, thank you so much, Alan. Thanks for hosting.
00:58:50
Northern Lights Foundry
It's been a pleasure.
00:58:51
Eli
Yeah.
00:58:51
Northern Lights Foundry
My pleasure.
00:58:52
Eli
Thank you so much.
00:58:53
Northern Lights Foundry
Folks, this is Radio Free RPG, and on behalf of Eric Farmer and e Eli Kurtz, I'm Alan Barr.