Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep.62 Plant Spirit Medicine with Patrick Hanaway
151 Plays6 months ago
In this enlightening episode, Dr. Patrick Hanaway shares his transformative journey from conventional Western medicine to the profound wisdom of plant spirit medicine. Discover how he bridges the gap between these worlds, advocating for a symbiotic relationship with local flora that fosters deep healing through relationship.
This episode is a call to awaken to the intricate web of life that binds us all, urging us to embrace a more compassionate and integrated path to wellness.
PATRICK HANAWAY, MD is a board-certified family physician and was initiated in 2009 as a Mara’akame [indigenous healer] by the Wixarika [Huichol] people of the Sierra Madres in Mexico.
Blue Deer Center is a non-profit spiritual retreat, located in the New York Catskills in the United States.
Topics Covered about plant spirit medicine
➡️ Learning from unexpected sources, like tomato and cactus, leading to a redefinition of medicine and healing.
➡️ The importance of recognizing and resonating with the unique characteristics of a plant person, rather than seeking a generic or universal approach.
➡️ The importance of relationships with plants, recognizing their interconnectedness and the need to redefine our understanding of relationships.
➡️ Asking for help from plants and mushrooms to heal from stage four cancer.
➡️ The idea of disease as a catalyst for evolution, suggesting that it can take us towards new forms of evolution
Resources Mentioned
- Plant Spirit Medicine
- Growing Awareness of Nature, an online and self-paced course designed to foster a profound connection between individuals and the natural world.
- Get a Plant Music Healing session
- What's Your Spirit Wild Plant? Find out here
☝🏽ReConnect with Plant Wisdom podcast Ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality about the wondrous ways plants help you lead a Naturally Conscious life. Subscribe on your favorite podcast player.
👉🏽 Join the Naturally Conscious Community to nourish human-plant relationships
// Let's work together: book a Discovery Call
// EcoConscious Business Partners
Learn More from The Shift Network
Shop Here with more partners
// Opening and Closing music by Steve Sciulli and Poinsettia from The Singing Life of Plants
// Socialize with me
Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Youtube
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Plant Spirit Medicine
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. It's me, Tigria Gardenia. And this is a really, really interesting episode. I have a great guest today. It's one of those synchronicities of life where somebody just kind of drops in your lap and you're you not really sure where it's going to go. But in the end, it takes you to a fantastic place. We're going to be interviewing um Dr. Patrick Hanaway and he, well, I could tell you all kinds of different things about him, but I'm just going to let you listen to it. I highly recommend you listen all the way to the end because there are just so many nuggets of wisdom from um both the Western medicine world mixing with what happens when you really step into
00:00:50
Speaker
all of the different aspects of growing awareness of nature. So this is episode 62, Plant Spirit Medicine. Enjoy. Welcome to Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. I'm your host, Tigri La Gardenia, nature-inspired mentor and leadership coach. In this podcast, I share ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality about the wondrous ways in which plants can help you lead a naturally conscious life.
Journey into Plant Spirit Medicine
00:01:20
Speaker
Here we are, Patrick Hanaway. I am so excited to be speaking with you today. I have to admit, I have to admit, I didn't expect our original conversation to go as well as it did. But once you and I spoke, I knew I had to have you on the podcast. So for the audience, can you tell them who is Patrick Hanaway?
00:01:45
Speaker
Oh gosh, which hat do I put on? in which Which mask do I put on in relationship? None of them are masks. None of them are masks. They're all just different facets of you. Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, as a little kid growing up, I wanted to, I wanted to be and involved in healing, you know, and from where I grew up, I thought that meant being a doctor. So I put my energy into you know becoming a doctor. and um got into medical school. and And literally after I got in, I'm like, do I want to do this? And I spent a couple of years searching to figure out, do I really want to do this? And, um you know, and and spent a lot of time in, in nature and skiing and in Yellowstone National Park for six months and, and went to medical school. And what I found out is it doesn't have anything to do with healing. And after the first year, I'm like, I don't
00:02:45
Speaker
I'm really interested in nutrition and and and herbs and other things. I don't think I should do this, but you know some friends counseled me that if I went through and I had those two letters after my name that maybe it would afford some other opportunities in my life and it has. So I i did that and and then But medical school really for me was about learning about mind body medicine and imagery and herbalism and traditional Chinese medicine and hands-on therapies like chiropractic. And you know I kind of went through, I got my my fix by about healing in that way. And you know so my career has unfolded since that time and I've been involved in the areas called integrative and or functional medicine, holistic medicine,
00:03:35
Speaker
and But I was always called to be able to find some deeper healing path. I didn't know what that was um and I've had many different kinds of opportunities.
Holistic Practice in North Carolina
00:03:48
Speaker
um But things really shifted for me when when I met ah my teacher, Elliot Cowan, teaching about plant spirit medicine. And actually the story goes that that um I told my wife about it. She studied with him. She's a doctor. And she came back at the end of of her time and we were starting our practice in Asheville, North Carolina. And she said, you have to, my birthday gift to you is you have to do this course. I'm like, I'm busy. I can't do that. and She's like, you have to do it. You have to receive my gift. Wives know best. Yeah, they do. And it literally
00:04:24
Speaker
you know, changed and shifted my life in many, many ways. And we can talk about that. But so I've become, you know, I've worked with the plant spirits, journeying to them, I've i've worked, I then you know, my dreams led me to a vision quest that led me to a pilgrimage path with the Viratica people, the Huicha people, and the Sierra Madres. Oh, wait, wait, wait. we We're going to get there. We're going to get there. But I'm so curious. So at this point in your life, you are practicing traditional medicine, right? Kind of, with a little bit of an alter alternate approach. Yeah. Well, I mean, I um i was practicing
00:05:02
Speaker
you know, basic medicine, working with the um the Pueblo people in New Mexico, and then we moved to Alaska and worked with the Yup'ik people on the Bering Sea. So you never did traditional. Well, I mean, it was it was being a Western doctor in those areas. and and And in fact, they didn't want to teach me their medicines. They wanted to receive my Western medicines. And so I did that. But then when we started out our practice here in in North Carolina, it was one that was much more um alternative or integrative, ah holistic, and really was not focused on Western medicine approaches, allopathic medicine approaches.
00:05:46
Speaker
Right. And why do you think your wife was like so adamant that she wanted you to go take this class? Because her life was changed by it. you know we'd we'd had ah We'd had a deep um connection spiritually and and worked in a Buddhist tradition. And that was very that was part of our coming together. And this this path opened up her heart even more. And she wanted to make sure that I was along with her for the ride. I like it. So you go off, you go take this class. Was it a class, a workshop, something? Oh, it's like ah five to seven days um over eight different weeks throughout the year. So it was like a year ah year long. It was probably, I think, I think it was 49 days. um what a What a good number. but Exactly. But it was it was you know a lot of ah lot of
00:06:44
Speaker
work over a year, as we were starting our practice, I'm like, I don't know if I can really do this, but it sort of, it opened itself up, life opened itself up to allow me to do it. So tell me a little bit about what you encountered and why and and what started to change?
Healing with Plant Spirits
00:07:02
Speaker
Well, I'll say, you know, i'm I'm more, you know, nerdy, and I've i've always been interested, always, always, you know, I always draw these five pointed stars on my hand just as and and then when I began to learn about five element, five phase Chinese medicine, like, Oh, this makes so much sense. And I learned that I learned some of that and and some acupuncture, but it was it was dabbling in it. And when and and so the basis, one of the bases of the plan spirit medicine approaches looking at the five phases of the seasons and the unfolding
00:07:39
Speaker
And it was taught in that way. And I was like, really? Oh, this is really cool. And I was really into that. And it wasn't actually as as into journeying to the plants. um But what what occurred was as I started to journey, I started to have these relationships, these friendships that developed with the plants that I just didn't expect. And sort of my intellectual left brain was saying, oh, that's not really real. But my experience was, well but things are happening. and when And when these new friends that I have come to me when I'm treating someone and and I ask them for their help, the people get better and their pulses change and they have, you know, and and honestly, I was kind of skeptical. I'm like, I don't really know if this works, you know, but I'm doing it and's and things are changing. I'm like, this is kind of like a reverse placebo effect. Like I'm not,
00:08:34
Speaker
I'm thinking it's not going to work and it works. I was like, oh, I better pay attention here. So that was ah that was what really kind of caught my attention, if you will. I get it. So lots of people talk about plant spirit medicine in many different types of contexts. So I'd love to hear your specific context. like for in the context kind I keep saying the word context context. It's one of those words that you can tell that is going to be important for our discussion. But relating to what you started to study, because you know when you say plant spirit medicine, for some people it's going to go ayahuasca, and for other people it's, I'm going to go into the jungle.
00:09:14
Speaker
and spend a week with a tree hugging and and you know drinking ah water and that's purified by this tree or that's been connected. What was the plant spirit medicine journey that you embarked on? So I first want to say you know and in the language I use, I'll just call the the the people who are working with special plants, we'll call that plant medicine. you know And there's there's lineages and traditions of of of indigenous people, native people doing that around the world in many different ways. That's not what I'm talking about.
00:09:47
Speaker
So what I'm talking about is about being able to um journey to and develop a relationship with the specific spirits of the plants. Especially important to be able to do that with the local plants that live near me, that are part of my life. It's it's sometimes easiest to be able to journey to them when they're flowering, to be able to get the you Sort of the full aspect sometimes of journey at several different phases of the of the year in of of that of that plant But especially if I can journey when they're flowering I can deepen my relationship I make offerings to to the plant and ask for help and and support and and presence myself with it and then go into a journey into the plant and and listening to what it has to say, drawing, seeing what things come up spontaneously and beginning to get an understanding of the relationship of
00:10:48
Speaker
how is that plant offering its medicine to me? it's it's It's spirit medicine because the same plant can have different kinds of medicines that it offers to different people. you know like We can look at things like bok flower remedies and there's some there's some generalities, but there there are actually individual relationships just as my relationship with you, my relationship with another person. They're different and unique and what is brought out is is is something that is is special. And so then then when I see
00:11:26
Speaker
patients or clients, you know I'm working with that and I am giving them that plant spirit. ah There's different ways to be do do that. It can be done through um kind of potentizing it and making it into drops. It can be done energetically you know through through the presentation. I like to do it with my hands. you know I find that hands-on healing and allowing the the the spirit of that plant that is in me to transfer into the person and and then listen to them and see how how how changes are in their life. So that's what plant spirit medicine is in the way I'm talking about it.
00:12:09
Speaker
And I love that you're talking about the plants that are all around us. I mean, like I said, when when you ah you just mentioned it beautifully, when you're talking about certain lineages, those plants were around, right? So if I live in certain areas of South America, for example, of course, the different plants that go into an Ayahuasca elixir are there. They're present, and they're part of that land, and they're for part of me, and there's a relationship that's happening. But that doesn't negate what happens when I spend a lot of time with rosemary or I spend a lot of time with rose and all those things. I actually have a spirit wild plant quiz that is to help people start to unite to these wild plants in the case of ah dandelion, for example, and and and cattail or bulrush.
00:12:57
Speaker
These are plants that are everywhere and these are plants that grow wild and that we can start to have relationships with in very distinct ways. I once did a plant spirit medicine type healing with dandelion. That was fantastic. It was two days. It was so intense. It was so wonderful. to have this relationship with this plant that we see everywhere that I see as I go along in my day but then like you said to form that ah kind of ah almost like an introduction to the plants like being able to say hello I you know nice to meet you and then start to get to know
00:13:36
Speaker
not just the general characteristics, like you mentioned, which I think is is something that we you know always is good to learn about and understand, but then go that step beyond and start to get to know the parts of you that resonate with me and therefore are exalted in our relationship together. Kind of like when you're having a conversation and you might have a friend who with you talks, I don't know, sports, and with somebody else talks theater. It doesn't mean that they are not both. theater and sports. It's just that I resonate with that aspect of you. And so therefore I bring that part of you out more. And I think that's what happens when we're working with these plants in that way. And we we think we have to go look for quote unquote special or look for the generic when instead we forget that there's all these other layers of characteristics that only come out in
Evolving Plant Relationships
00:14:29
Speaker
relationship. Do you do you find that that's that that's how how they've come into your life more?
00:14:35
Speaker
It's absolutely true, and I remember studying herbology early on, and and my teacher, Taroni Lodog, you know said you know her grandfather worked with five plants you know because he had that deep relationship, and they were able to be used. Now, his knowledge base was of hundreds of plants, but he primarily worked with five plants because those were his best friends. and and they could be worked with to find where the imbalance was in people and and help them along on the journey. and you know a I think they people say whatever that means, but you know if you have five
00:15:16
Speaker
to seven really good friends, you're going to have a healthy life. You know like that's you don't want to you don't need a thousand friends on Facebook, you know you don't you and and you don't want to just have one friend, but having a few friends that you can relate to that help to bring out different aspects of you and that help you to see the world in different ways. And so this so that is that's true also. So in in you know my compendium, there's you know a number of different plants that I've journeyed to over time and I've journeyed to play plants in different places but it's the plants that live around me that I see every day that I have the deepest healing relationship with.
00:16:00
Speaker
and And I think this is so important, especially because ah you know I live in community. right And I think you're you're showing a great example of the kind of sometimes misunderstandings we have about what it means to live in community. I remember when I first came to live in Damanhur, I was like, oh my goodness, I can't. I can't do this. you know All these people so close to me, I'll kill somebody. But like you said, you you have this circle of people around you that are your biggest mirrors. And they even change over time. yeah right because as I mature and I grow and and ah different aspects of me emerge, then those people start to shift, those human people start to shift. And now as I work with plants, I'm finding the same thing. I have an entire human community that's much more, that's much bigger, that allows me in different aspects, whether it's because I'm taking a course or we're studying something together.
00:16:51
Speaker
And we have all these different groups, these research groups and these work groups for the different projects. And each one of those allows me to see mirrors of myself and for me to learn more about them and about myself in that process. But that core group is always are are the ones that i I probably learned the most from. And I find the same thing happens with the plant world. You know, I have a core group of friends that is, you know, Gary, the silver fur outside and Lately into my group is tomato, which I don't understand why because I don't eat tomatoes. But tomato has made a big entrance into my life and is saying, I am here and you need to learn from me. And boy, am I being taught. And up until recently, Spider Plant had been my business partner and the partner that I had worked with the most. And Spider Plant is being very clear right now to say, I'm stepping back. I am stepping back from this relationship right now.
00:17:42
Speaker
And Noel the cactus, um the Christmas cactus is coming in really strong of like, I am here now and I know that you and spider plant have this like bond you've done so much good together, but for the next part of your business of of our of our business growth. I'm here and I want to step in. I have a few things and a few tricks up my sleeve that I really want to share with you. And it's been an extremely interesting experience to step deeper into that. The work that you do, though, has a lineage behind it and ah and um an experience behind it. Can you tell us more about that? Because I'm super curious. Well, you know, I just want to say, like, for me, it's like, um
00:18:26
Speaker
You know, Chicory had been that that that for me, just really connected. And and over the last year, I'm like, well, Chicory, you're really not around very much anymore where you used to be. And and some of that is because the land is changing and developing and and in a good way. You know, and now Nettles has has shown up and Nettles is just I'd say, you know, like I worked with Nettles. Yeah, there you are. And, you know, so so I totally hear what you're saying. and it and And it's about paying attention and listening to what's shifting and changing and what's coming into, you know, the presence. And and even this year, mushrooms are really
00:19:05
Speaker
really jumping out at me, which is interesting as we'll talk about later and in my my journey ah with with cancer and the role of mushrooms there. But um the lineage, what happened was, is that you know many, many peoples in the world have been listening and talking to the plants and that's how they've learned that they're medicines and that they're foods and what they can do with them. you know we We have And it's just like there's 12,000 plants that are edible. um But in our culture, you know, we only eat like 200 of them and 75% 75% of our calories and protein come from 12 plants, you know, 60% of it comes from from rice and corn and and and wheat, you know, it's sort of like, wow, how did we limit ourselves so much from the incredible diversity that's there. But Elliott was a farmer
00:20:01
Speaker
And then he he learned ah traditional Chinese medicine from a five-phase perspective, the so-called Warsley School. So the difference in the Warsley School from what might be called eight principal Chinese medicine is that the interrelationship of the five phases that move from fire to earth to metal to water to wood is actually based upon on a spiritual connection to the earth and that being in balance in that in that phase is what is is what we work towards within the Tao. So he took that and he was teaching that in London
00:20:38
Speaker
and he and he spoke with his teacher and he said it seems like anything that we do with acupuncture needles you you could do with plants and the teacher said yes it's absolutely true and then he said but anything you can do with plants you can do a thousand times better with local plants to where to where you live you know And it's like in that that struck Eliot and he he he left and went back to farming, but also went back to really deepening his relationship with the plants. And so he really just remembered.
00:21:15
Speaker
the way in which peoples in the past have deepened and developed their relationship with plants like you and I are talking about here. So you know that's really the the lineage of it. It's a remembering and then he's taught that to thousands of people and written a book and you know ah taught me and and started the Blue Deer Center as a retreat place in the Catskills to help bring forth this medicine and to connect to and to connect to the earth and the spirits that are there all the time around us. Yeah, and it's all really about those relationships. I'm glad that you you sort of brought it into that because I think you ah lately I've been working very closely with different plants to help expand our definitions of relationships. um you know Starting with just even some of the relationships that we see in nature you know outside of ourselves, outside of our human models,
00:22:12
Speaker
that we've forgotten, you know, commensalisms and how to turn parasitisms and predation into something beautiful again and all these different aspects. But there seems to be also this unfolding of the understanding that relationships go way deeper and broader than even what we have been conditioned to experience as humans and therefore what we can see in nature. the more I work with plants, the more I understand that relationships is a word that I've only just started to define, that I'm only starting to come into a comprehension of what a relationship can look like, um that it's almost like an archetype that's missing, which is what we talk about a lot in Damanhur. And from a Damanhurian perspective, we say how the relationships connected to the archetypes connected to relationships can only be
00:23:04
Speaker
refound with the plant world because they remember can have been experiencing these and we have lost those relationships. Exactly. And I think even some of the words that we use, you know, of parasitism or predation or mutualism are concepts rather that because we don't know how to put them into a framework. And then and then we we put them into good and bad categories, you know whereas that raffle archetype or that trickster archetype, they're there. They're there in all the sacred stories. you know it's It's just in our culture. It's like, oh, we want everything to be rainbows and unicorns. But it's like, well, it's not always like that.
00:23:43
Speaker
And that's how when we're challenged, it's how we learn and how we can see different ways of relating to all of the beauty that our our fellow people people as in the big term people persons, you know, every every living being um and there's there's different gifts that we have to share with each other than we have and we that we can learn from. So I think that you talking about it in that way of looking at the the plants and the interrelationships that are going on that they have and then the interrelationships that we have or I have with them, you know that expands the view of what we mean when we're talking about relationship. It's not like you know kissing and holding hands and skipping down the trail. That's one kind of relationship, but there's so many more and we and we have to learn in order to be able to and and
00:24:37
Speaker
beauty is the plants want to teach us like they're right there and they're so giving you know they give us medicine they give us food they give us oxygen they give us you know so many aspects as well as beauty you so i mean there's i could I could go on, but they they're so giving and and we just need to open ourselves up and and present ourselves. and When we do that and we offer gratitude and even a small amount of exchange, they're right there to be able to say, let me help you here.
00:25:13
Speaker
Patrick, there's so many good things here but we have to take a little break and introduce one of our eco-conscious business partners because it's thanks to them that we get to have conversations like this.
00:25:27
Speaker
The first time I connected with a plant and actually received a response, I got chills. It is such an invigorating sensation when you break through like that and realize just how connected we are and that we are nature. As a nature inspired mentor myself, I was super excited to stumble upon the shift network and its mission to empower a global network of evolutionary change agents.
00:25:57
Speaker
talk about my kind of movement. There are so many inspiring thought leaders, healers, empaths, and other visionaries all under one roof, each with an individual and collective mission to help you reawaken and co-create a just and prosperous world. Now, check out the show notes, click on the link and learn more about the shift network. Consider enrolling even in a course or two. They are the perfect complement to your evolving naturally conscious life. I hope you enjoy what you find in the shift network and come back to the naturally conscious community and let us know all about what you're learning and exploring.
00:26:42
Speaker
You're totally speaking my language. That's exactly, I mean, how the more I work with plants, the more I allow myself to sort of enter into my plantness and reawaken that inner plantness, the more these concepts. ah Like you said, we still don't have the words. Our vocabulary is so limited, but you start to feel it. You you feel that it's different. You feel that it has a different experience. And oftentimes when i what I'm doing having these types of conversations or when I'm doing a botanical tarot card reading of some sort. I struggle to find the right words but I'm finding that more and more the feelings are in my body. The the expressions are coming out and i'm I'm finding myself needing to use my body more in order to give them a shape and in that aspect.
00:27:31
Speaker
You mentioned a little while ago, um something that I wanted to kind of circle back on if if you don't mind, but you know we have these major also life transformations that help us better understand these relationships. You kind of mentioned the the big word that a lot of people unfortunately have in their lives, which is like the big C word. the cancer word. And you just sort of glossed over it. But i'm I'm curious as to how this journey being a doctor, of ah a traditional, you know, Western medicine doctor, then stepping deeper into this aspect. And then it seems like something shifted and happened. And i'm I'm so curious as to how all of this sort of tied together and where, how did the plants step in to help you with cancer?
Cancer Journey and Healing
00:28:17
Speaker
Well in several different ways. so um Five and a half years ago, he curiously had ah daku two Dakota elders you know at my house teaching. We had about 180 or 100 people. and you know i'm sitting in bed one night with my hand right here and all of a sudden I'm like, huh, that's hard. Oh, that's not painful. Okay. You know, medically hard, painful things are not painful. It wasn't painful. I couldn't feel anything. I was like, okay, that's not inflammation.
00:28:54
Speaker
said, Oh, I'll wait a day and see if it changes. It didn't change. And then, um you know, five days later, I was diagnosed with stage four cancer of the head and neck. And, and, you know, kind of look at that. And it's like, wow, I'm, you know, 59 years old. And, you know, um everything's going well. and And what's happening here. And, And so there were a lot of things that happened and I'll just speak to a couple of them. One of them was that I was actually, I've mentioned that I'm um initiated as ah as a traditional healer called a marakame.
00:29:33
Speaker
in the language of the Bedarica people, the Huicha people and the Sierra Madres. And I was fasting that month for pilgrimage to be able to go down to the sacred desert. And this was in the middle of my fasting. And I meet with the doctors and they're like, you know, you should do this, this, this. And I'm like, you know, before I do anything, it's okay if I just like go down to the sacred desert and do my pilgrimage. And they're like, you know, you got you got a couple weeks. And so I did that. And, and, you know, what I found there was both with the um the shamanic treatments that I received, um but the the opening um that I received from from the plants in the desert that helped me to recognize I need to ask for help.
00:30:21
Speaker
And that was the big thing. So you know all all of what unfolded for the next three months after that was a deepening of asking for help, asking for help from the plants, asking for help from the from the mushrooms to be able to help support my immune system. Now, I would say, If I didn't have stage four cancer, i I probably would have not have done the Western medical stuff as well, but I did because you know when they say stage four, it's kind of like, oh, it's right in your face. it's like you you know There's a very good chance you will not be alive a few years from now. I did what made sense and I focused on nutrition and the plants and foods that went into me.
00:31:04
Speaker
and and and then And then something unique happened. So you know there was ah there were days that were like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. and and But I have to get outside. I don't even know. you know I was so fatigued. But I have to be outside. And I would go outside. And there's a little spring on the land where we live. And I would just walk down. to it and just start playing in the spring. And just like watching, feeling the water flow, moving it, helping it to flow and being with um the the trees, the willow that was right there. And and I just would spend time there and it would spend like hours there just sitting, you know, and being with the spring and not not thinking about anything, just being with the spring.
00:32:01
Speaker
and And I noticed things began to shift in my way of both seeing the world and also in the way of relating to myself. And what I also began to feel was the incredible amount of spirits, beings,
00:32:23
Speaker
however we wanted to find them, just pouring into me. And they would pour in like right through the top of my head and move through my body. And I felt at peace. And, you know, and part of that journey was also a ah deep, a deep connection with Chaga um as, a you know, and in helping me, you know, and I was I was drinking Chaga, you know, like four, five, six cups every day, you know, it just like there was a ah a crock pot of Chaga always on. And that Chaga had been gifted to me by ah by a friend in
00:33:01
Speaker
in northern Michigan who who created a beautiful mandala of the of the chaga and then sent it to me. And so it's like all those aspects and I just feel even as I'm talking about it right now like like the the cells in my body remember you know and they're they're vibrating in that. So that was a transformation unexpected um and you know and quite difficult. I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but I also found that several years later in the sweat lodge, I was giving thanks to cancer.
00:33:40
Speaker
fur for helping me find my life back. You know, where I had gotten a little bit too much in my head and too much in my my mind and my ego and it was just connecting me back to the earth. And it's made a big difference for me in my life.
00:33:58
Speaker
it's It's such a beautiful story for so many different points. I mean, the water, the willow, I mean, what does willow traditionally do? I mean, willow pulls from that water a clean soil. it Key is a plant that is just so important and powerful in that the chaga, you know these these other types of beings, these fungi that are are here and are also working so deeply with us. And we're only just starting to recognize that potency. But more than anything, you said a few things that I just ah just want to tap on because I want everybody to really think about them and hear them. You talked about how this process all started with asking for help.
00:34:43
Speaker
And I think we often in our human terms think about asking for help. First of all, we do it reluctant reluctantly. Many times we don't expect the help to actually come, but we also don't do it in a way of, I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like there's this, there's this deep ask, this deep, deeper way of more kind of like you said earlier about when you were talking about your wife, this heart-cracking way of asking for help. It's that I'm standing here before you in a desire to not just take from you, because I think that's also our fear sometimes in asking for help is like, am I taking? But in in reciprocity of of I am part of you,
00:35:28
Speaker
I am part of nature, I am part plant, I am part fungi, I am here and I that help that I'm asking is not so much help heal me but is help me learn what I'm supposed to do with this, help me see the path forward, help me get to the place where this does become in whatever way it becomes in my highest and in my best good and that I am I am in my purpose and in my place through this. and And for some, that might mean, you know, restoring, going back to what we are, you know, what we were before in what we have considered historically to be health. In others, it might mean a transition, right, to another phase, but I i get to that other phase in this life and death process that that comes from a place of beauty and bounty.
00:36:22
Speaker
not from limitation and suffering. And it could mean something completely different. It could be, you know, an entire step forward. um Though we were just finishing up um ah the book, Biocivilizations in our Plant Wisdom book club. And Biocivilizations gets to, I'm not going to take give it all away, but but in one section, he talks about nature as as doctors. And it's very, very interesting in how um the author kind of explores explores this idea of what does it mean to be to to be a natural doctor from the perspective of how nature creates doctors, not just that dot nature heals, but literally there are, you know, species and functions that are connected to healing others, including ants that do surgery and such and such.
00:37:14
Speaker
But one of the things that he talks about, which I think is extremely powerful, is that we as humans sort of look at disease. We look at disease from the perspective of I either on the one side heal and go back to my original state or to die. We forget that that that illness can also take us toward evolution. I mean, when we think about many of the species on the planet, a lot of them are mutations or some kind of disease that came in or something that we would think of in the form of disease that then got, you know, englobed and was, you know, in endosymbiosis or was brought into and that and then from there the being was there able to kind of um evolve into something new and involve new characteristics. And so I think that when you allow, like you said,
00:38:09
Speaker
your what we consider today today to be disease or diversely, you know, from the context of what I know. And you ask that openness of help me. You're not just saying heal me, you're saying help me go in and evolve into what I'm supposed to be. Take me where this is supposed to take me. and allow me to experience it so fully that whatever the outcome is, I go back to where I was before in the perspective of I am, you know, my body heals into that, whether I am past or whether I move into some other shape form or what that might be. Let it all feel like it's a movement forward, an evolution, a place that is new
Disease and Nature Connection
00:38:53
Speaker
and different. And I think that that can only happen
00:38:56
Speaker
really only happen when we recognize our place in nature and we recognize ourselves as nature and and share that experience with the, like you said, the people with a capital P, the persons around us, human and other kin. i don't it's It's such a fine line, but I feel like it's so important for us. ah Thanks for elaborating on that. And in my experience, was was one where it just like came to me. It's like, you have to ask for help from all of the beings, or you will die. You know, and it was just like, okay, it's like, it's unequivocal. And, you know, I began that that very moment, you know, as the as the dawn broke on that day, I began to to do that and and have felt it and have felt it ever since. And, and
00:39:53
Speaker
And sometimes I forget, you know and and i and I move away from it. And it's like, oh man, and how could I forget a lesson where my life is at stake? And yet I i forget. and then i And then I begin to remember again. And that's the whole thing for me. It's about, it's about there is no perfection. it is it is there's imbalance and rebalance. And how do I how do i work to do that? you know like Because that's that's what creates the dynamic movement in life. It's like, oh, I'm off. Oh, I'm oh back on. i'm I'm off, off, off. Oh, no. But that's that's movement. And when we look at traditional healing systems, you know that's what they focus on.
00:40:33
Speaker
They don't focus on you know sort of the static diagnosis. They they focus on, oh, there's there's imbalance. How do we bring it back into balance and allow that movement of life, that sort of weaving of the the tapestry of our life? and know We're not trying to go back and fix the mistake in the tapestry from back in the day. We're just trying to weave it now so that it is imbalance and beauty, recognizing that that we'll do our best. that's I'm so glad you said that those are actually my one of my first podcast episodes that I did was exactly that discussion, the idea that we need to stop thinking that the answer to life is balance, but it is instead flow, it's moving from that state of imbalance and balance and being able to
00:41:22
Speaker
manage how that moves because balance gives us the ability to integrate, to to kind of solidify, to bring things into the current moment. But imbalance is what allows us to grow and move into different directions. And speaking of imbalance, in this work, it sounds like you've also moved now from student to teacher. Did I did i get that right?
Teaching and Pilgrimages
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah, it it has unfolded in that way and it it's sort of like i sometimes looking like, how did that happen? um But what's what's emerged you know for me is that you know i've been ah I've been involved with a center where my teacher Elliot was blue deer and he was leading pilgrimage and
00:42:03
Speaker
He then asked me, as he was getting older, he asked me to begin to learn how to do that. And as as fate would have it, um you know his his teacher left a lot for him to figure out by listening to the world. It wasn't, it's not a didactic kind of teaching. And so he gave me some some framework for that. um But then, oh my gosh, i I just, you know, it was a ah weekend, of Valentine's weekend, if you will, um in 2022. And we sat down and I said, you know, okay, well, I'd i'd like to kind of i have these questions related to formal training. And he, he taught me some songs. And he said, we'll get to the rest of that, you know, that's detail, we'll get to that. And that was on Friday. And on Monday,
00:42:58
Speaker
um he was flying home and had a stroke and ended up dying two weeks later and so it's like oh my gosh you know there like there's this this deep well of wisdom and knowledge and you know I I've been with it for a long time but now you know, how does that carry forward? And so I've been asked to carry that forward through the center called Blue Deer and through taking people on pilgrimage ah into the sacred sites in Mexico of the Huichol or Vedataka people and continuing to deepen my understanding there.
00:43:35
Speaker
And then also, how do we carry on you know these teachings about plant spirit medicine? um And there are many people who have been taught, and so we've we've we've created a course to to be able to embody both the legacy but bringing in other wisdom elders to talk about the the role of plant spirits and how we work with the plant spirits. and And how we listen to life, how how the aliveness of the world, because it's not just about plants. Plants, I sort of feel like they're ah they're a portal through which we can begin to have. I call them a gateway. They're like a gateway drug. Exactly. In the Huichil tradition, ah they use the term nerica, you know, that's going through or sipapu in the Anasazi culture of the of the Pueblo people.
00:44:27
Speaker
you know There's so many different ways, but plants are that. and And so that's what we're doing as a means of being able to help carry that on. And you know I'm not him. It happens in a different way. I've got my own ah my own personality, my own perspective, and my own baggage, um all of which make me human. Well, we'll definitely include everything in the show notes with information about Blue Deer and the course and and the work that you're doing today. As we start to kind of wrap up, because these are those types of conversations where we can just go down little rabbit holes. We're trying really hard. We're doing a really good job and not going down the rabbit hole of specific plants and specific lessons. I can see us both holding it back. It's like, no, if not, this would be four hours.
00:45:14
Speaker
but But I'm curious, is are there any kind of last of of all the things we've talked about? Are there any kind of last thoughts, something that you feel is really important right now to share with those that are listening and who are embarking on their own journey with plant spirit medicine?
Hope and Human-Nature Connection
00:45:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think, um you know, what what arises to me is actually expressed in the course by by one of the one of the teachers and It's that there is hope. we We live in a time where it feels like, God, we've just screwed this all up and you know it's going to go to hell in a handbasket and and the earth is fine will be fine without us. No, the earth and all the plant people, they they want to be in relationship to us.
00:46:00
Speaker
you know, and we have to be, we as we open ourselves up, there's actually possibility and hope for transformation to occur. So let's let's listen, let's do our work, not let's not become nihilistic, you know, and feel like, oh, oh we, it's, it's beyond the possibility of, of rebalancing, it's just going to be a different balance than it was before, or a different, um you know, we're so far in balance that this sacrifices will, I'm sure be be large, but it, there is possibilities to be able to bring us back in deep
00:46:39
Speaker
deeper relationship to the living world and all of the all the peoples who are in it listening to them and connecting with them and it's and in fact it's it's necessary like we have to do it's the only possibility that i can see ai is not a possibility of doing it trying to trying to engineer more solutions not going to be the way to do it but listening to the peoples of the world you know, of all the, as you said, the the big P peoples, you know, all the personages that are there, that's the opportunity. And in fact, it's the requirement for us to be able to continue to live as human peoples on this earth.
00:47:25
Speaker
And that's so beautiful and it's so true. And it's not that technology can't be our friend and our ally and something we work with. But if you create these algorithms using the same models that got us into the problems, you're just going to perpetuate the problems. that's it's It's inevitable to perpetuate the problems. Instead, if you step, I keep saying to people, if we step out of our humanness just for a second, enter into some of these other species the plant nests into the fungi nests into the bacteria nests.
Technology and Sustainability
00:47:58
Speaker
I mean, these are the resilient beings that have continuously lived on this planet world building, right not world destroying. And so yes, they know when to destroy because there's always decomposers so theres always always a cycle the cycle exactly. And
00:48:15
Speaker
And what we're learning more and more as we work with all of these other beings is how to be a part of the cycle rather than trying to control the cycle and move the cycle forward in our own way. And that will then allow us to use things like technology and AI. I mean, I have a tech background. I understand. how it can be useful for us, but only when I have a different mindset. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep doing what I've always done, and that's going to give me the results on a bigger scale than i've ah than I've already created right now in my human body. so
00:48:49
Speaker
So that's that's such an important lesson. I'm so glad that you mentioned it. Yeah, and it's it's it's a tool. It's a useful tool. There are many different useful tools, but it is not a way of relating to the world that will help us to become integrated and whole. And that's what exactly' what we're going for. Exactly. and totally Totally agree. Beautiful words and to end by. Thank you so much for this conversation. It has been amazing. And I am in so excited about the work that you're all doing and your own personal journey. And, ah you know, ah wait, I have to ask this question though. And the wife, how is she integrating all of this? Oh, same. You know, she's Lisa. Her name is Lisa. And, you know, and she,
00:49:34
Speaker
She took a path that was really focused on um moms and babies and kids in relationship to it. so she's delivered you know thousands of babies and, you know, works with moms and helps them to, you know, the heart of birth and connecting to that through, you know, connecting with birth, and sometimes with birth trauma, you know, to be able to um be more deeply connected. And so that's where her path has gone. And she, like me, also is initiated as ah as a Marakame. And so she does that that work as well.
00:50:12
Speaker
Beautiful. That makes me very happy. So I am really excited. We're going to put everything in the show notes so that people can find out about you, about the course, and about all the other amazing things that your um that the center has to offer. Thank you again, Patrick, for this time. And thank you to all of you that have listened all the way to the end. I hope that we can continue these conversations in the naturally conscious community. Please let us know what you think, you know leave us a review, leave us a comment and share this with your friends because this is a type of thinking that is going to, as Patrick said, bring hope to the world and help us move into a new paradigm, one of co-creation rather than a kind of co-destruction right now, which is where we're heading if we don't make changes soon. All right, thank you so much everyone. Remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance