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Ep.99 Why Hunter-Gatherers Were Less Stressed Than Us with Tommy Serafinski
73 Plays1 month ago
What if the way we work is fundamentally out of sync with our nature?
In this episode, I sit down with Tommy Serafinski to explore how modern life has stripped us of the deep, intuitive connection to land that our ancestors once had. We dive into hunter-gatherer wisdom, seasonal rhythms, and attunement to the ecosystem, revealing how these natural cycles foster a sense of safety, balance, and ease—things we often feel are missing in our structured, productivity-driven world.
Hunter-gatherers weren’t constantly stressed about survival. They understood the landscape so well that gathering food was not a daily grind but a rhythmic, flowing relationship with the land. Meanwhile, we push through work in artificial cycles that ignore our bodies’ needs, making stress feel inevitable.
So how do we reclaim our natural rhythm? How do we break free from the myth that structure equals security?
This episode will shift how you think about time, work, and your own inner landscape. Tune in to rediscover the natural intelligence that already lives within you.
Topics Covered about Natural Rhythms and Productivity
➡️ Hunter-gatherer societies were less stressed than we are, not more.
➡️ Our obsession with structure and productivity disconnects us from natural rhythms.
➡️ True attunement comes from deep observation, relationship with the land, and trust in cycles.
➡️ Business and life can function like an ecosystem—responsive, adaptable, and deeply connected.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
04:12 Transition to Outdoor and Science
14:23 Stone Age Economics and Modern Stress
20:43 Natural Rhythms for Enhanced Productivity
28:35 Shift your Personal Transformation
34:10 Self-Awareness and Tuning Into the Body
48:49 Control and Insecurity
Resources Mentioned
🌱 Tommy's Podcast: Conservation and Science
🌱 Personalized mentorship with me and the Plants
Expanded Show Notes
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Preview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. It's me, Tigre Gardenia. Oh my God, are you in for a treat with this
Exploring Connection to Land and Safety
00:00:10
Speaker
episode? This ended up being completely different from what we thought we were going to be doing. We had a whole mess of different topics that we could touch, but Tommy Serafinski is somebody that you are really going to enjoy. And we ended up getting into this deep dive around the idea of connection to land, attunement, feeling safe, understanding, you know, how and
00:00:36
Speaker
what's going on around you. It's just amazing. So I am really looking forward to this.
The Stress of Modern Life vs. Hunter-Gatherers
00:00:43
Speaker
And in the end, after a lot of thinking about exactly how I can explain to this, the best way for me to describe this is for you to enjoy episode 99 nine hey OK, 99. Can you believe this? This is episode 99.
00:01:00
Speaker
ninety nine I am still shocked about that. But this is episode 99. Why hunter gatherers were way less stressed than we are. OK, not way.
00:01:11
Speaker
No, no way. Let's just call it why hunter gatherers were less stressed than we are.
The Role of Plants in Personal Growth
00:01:18
Speaker
Welcome to Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. I'm your host Tigri Agardegna, Nature Inspired Mentor, Certified Life Coach, and the Founder of the Naturally Conscious Community.
00:01:34
Speaker
share their practical wisdom to help you consciously embody the elements of life that nourish your evolution. In this podcast, I delve into ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality about the wondrous ways of plants. Together, we'll explore how ecosystem thinking helps you overcome limiting beliefs, understand the true nature of relationships, and live an authentic, impactful life.
Meet Tommy Serafinski
00:02:02
Speaker
Okay, Tommy, we finally, i finally hit the record button and we're actually going to finally do this because when you and I met and we had our first conversation, we had a billion and one directions that we could take this conversation and I'm sure we're still going to take it into a billion and one. But before we start, I want you to tell everybody about who are you? Introduce yourself completely.
00:02:24
Speaker
All right. So I think i'm wearing um I wear many hats, but for the purpose of this conversation, um I'm Tommy Serafinski. I'm the host and producer of Conservation and Science podcast, formerly known as Tommy's Outdoors.
00:02:39
Speaker
So the name Tommy's Outdoors still lingers, but the title is Conservation and Science. And ah we like the tagline is that we take a deep dive into issues of ecology, conservation, and human-wildlife interactions. And I think that Human-wildlife interactions reflect particularly well what I'm interested in.
00:02:57
Speaker
And that obviously covers conservation, that covers any work for and of NGOs, but it also covers hunting and fishing. It also covers social and political issues related to wildlife, nature, conservation, anything that is interfaced between humans and nature. And obviously that leads to the question, like, are humans natural? Are humans part of nature? Of course, humans are part of nature spoiler alert.
00:03:23
Speaker
But yeah, that's, that's what I do.
Rewilding and Nature Practices
00:03:26
Speaker
And I love that because that that's kind of what what drew me to you when I reached out to you, I really wanted to talk about this whole idea of humans and and wildlife and the idea of, you know, rewilding into a certain extent the human and really getting back into our wild roots. What does that actually mean? Why should we connect into that? And I was really excited to talk to you because you know I myself, a few years back, started to get back in touch with the nature around me in that way and wildcrafting wild crafting and like going out and learning how to hunt, learning how to you know take care and be a part of the land. And it opened up a whole series of different senses for me.
00:04:07
Speaker
like the whole concept that I don't know how to explain it. It's such still hard words for me to kind of find because it's almost like I found my true self um in the fact of when I'm out there with that intention, with the intention of how do i live with and of the land?
Tommy's Journey to Nature
00:04:26
Speaker
it It changed my entire perspective of when I came back home. It's almost like, oh, i'm I'm not just this thing that lives inside of a house and is connected to a computer. And both of us work in tech.
00:04:42
Speaker
So we are connected to computers and we know all of this. Damn things. Yeah, damn things. But it's like, don't know. I mean, how did you get into it?
Evolution of Tommy's Podcast
00:04:53
Speaker
Oh, ah this is an interesting question. and i ah Okay. I'm trying to give you like a short version that maybe for the interest ah of original programming that wasn't you know repeated in many other podcasts.
00:05:06
Speaker
I usually m describe myself as a city boy. I was born in Poland. Probably your listeners, can can you you guys can can hear that ah I'm not a native speaker.
00:05:18
Speaker
um And so I was born in Poland and I but was born in ah in a city at the time, second biggest city in Poland. Then I moved to Warsaw, which was the biggest city in in Poland. I work in tech.
00:05:29
Speaker
And so it's like nothing was indicating that I will ever, you know, go into this nature trip. Like me, me, me, me. me yeah me go Just definitely that me. Yeah.
00:05:41
Speaker
Hortigria was so the same.
00:05:44
Speaker
So anyway, so but we also always had this um like a summer house in a rural area. And it was I call it summer house because it was like not really suitable for for Polish winters at the time.
00:05:58
Speaker
Right. um And I always enjoyed this. It was like a rural, you know, fields and stuff like that. And then so I'm just going to do like a fast forward um number of years, like 20 years ago, I moved to Ireland and I moved to Ireland. they like ah you know county like We call it like a holiday county, County Kerry on the westernmost tip of Ireland and Europe actually, westernmost tip of Europe.
00:06:22
Speaker
And this is like, ah again, rural area. I still work in tech, but it's like you have ocean and you have mountains. Oh, hills. And like all these things like, wow, this is so great.
00:06:33
Speaker
And, ah you know, i was i was I was fishing. I was an angler. So I had like a this pursuit of the know like ah outdoors pursuits with the with the end with angling.
00:06:45
Speaker
um But like in Poland, you know when I live in Warsaw, i have like it was like Vistula River. So you know after work, I was going fishing. and And I had a blog. I had a blog about fishing, angling.
00:06:59
Speaker
And when I moved to Ireland, it was... so great because all those opportunities opened up and you know equally i wanted to do something in english language because i was so like kind of like immersed in the environment english speaking environments i had like more friends english speakers i want to do something in english and that blog was um obviously in polish language and i thought like i'm gonna do the podcast because speaking is easier than writing in the language that you don't know yeah true So podcast was like a natural natural fit.
00:07:29
Speaker
And I thought that a podcast is going to be a little bit like this blog. I'm just going to be talking with my buddies where we go fishing and stuff like that. But I always like to explore topics that are interesting topics.
00:07:46
Speaker
And we were talking about tagging fish and and there was like a discussion on social media, like, oh, you shouldn't be tagging fish. you shouldn't do this, that, and you know, but it's a scientific research, whatever.
00:07:57
Speaker
And I talked to people who are from the scientific project called Sea Monitor and say, like hey, you do like all lot of this tagging. Would you like to come on on the podcast and talk about it? And, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly.
00:08:11
Speaker
And they said, sure, we recorded a podcast. And shortly after, they contacted me. It's like, hey, we have a lot of work packages in this. Would you like to do a series with us? I was like, whoa, sure. And then the author of the scientific projects started coming to me like, oh, we heard that you do this project with this series of podcasts with C-Monitor.
00:08:31
Speaker
And in this simultaneously, my audience responded to this very positively. Because i I speak with those scientists, but obviously I'm not a scientist myself. So I'm, you know, I am i am like an avatar for my audience, like a guy who's interested, but it's like, oh.
00:08:48
Speaker
And I'm ah asking these like stupid questions, which I have no quads about it. Yeah. and And, you know, and the scientists have to, ah they they're they're actually enjoying answering that in the terms that they're understood for lame folks, lay folks, not lame, lay folks.
00:09:06
Speaker
got it and And that is the science communication. So that's how it started. And that's how I, you know, diving and in the in those topics, because I think we, there's a lot of things that we,
00:09:20
Speaker
think and there that there are, oh, there's this way, this is that way, but they're way more complex, you know? Like when I started, I thought like everybody is like conservation, like everyone surely wants to protect the animals and environment, right? as I was so naive. This is like so way more complex than that.
00:09:39
Speaker
So that goes to my first kind of question, which is what do you think has changed? Because especially coming into it as, you know, a fisherman and eventually a hunter, you know, it is, I am the big you know predator and eye control and go in and you know hunt whenever I want and however I want.
00:10:00
Speaker
yeah That's how people perceive it. So what changed? What's changed
Sustainability in Hunting and Connection to Land
00:10:04
Speaker
in you? Because conservation is slightly different. And all of these other scientific kind conversations are are very different from just the idea of I go out there for sport.
00:10:13
Speaker
I hunt these animals. I take care of i bring them home as we think about it. This is just the last episode that that i that I published when we were talking about the paper. it's like a beautiful paper um ah published in in Science ah and science so Sustainability, I think.
00:10:32
Speaker
ah No, sorry, Nature Sustainability. So it was published in Nature. that The title was that killing wild animals can foster environmental stewardship.
00:10:44
Speaker
um So i I was talking with and one of the co-authors. So I just wanted to just answer your question that this is like only like a dominionist, like a very dominionistic view of the things, right? That God created the world and put us on this earth to just fuck up things.
00:11:01
Speaker
no True. to To be in charge and conquer and divide and whatever. That's very dominionistic. And actually... Not a lot of hunters have that view. um So I think that being a hunter or being an angler has much more that gives you that much deeper connection.
00:11:26
Speaker
into the into the nature. And that you know like there's a whole this discussion about it because they as everything in life, the answer is like it depends. right It is different if you're being taken on a fishing holiday or a hunting holiday and you're in there somewhere. You don't know the land. You don't know where you are.
00:11:45
Speaker
People tell you what to do and that like there's no connection. But if you hunting or fishing on your own, on on your patch, not not necessarily your own land that you own, but maybe land that, you know, you know, a farmer and you hunt that land for the last 10 years or 20 years, you will develop a very intricate connection to that piece of land. You start to understand how that land is changing with the seasons, how it's changing from year to year, where animals are moving, where, you know, like what are the paths they're taking, you know, like you start to learn about all those things and you're and you're very much connected.
00:12:26
Speaker
um There's also another aspect, ah you know, of killing an actual kill and and so on, which you might may or might not get later on into into this. But ah just want to focus to your to your answer to that, ah to the to the question that This is very like to me, that was what drew me into it, that connection and that understanding and that being close to nature. So I don't think that that that changed.
00:12:52
Speaker
I think that in me, that was that was always that was always there, you know like the first time. And I started fishing very late in life. it was I was in my ah probably mid 20s when I first time went out with a fishing rod.
00:13:05
Speaker
And for the very beginning, my question was, like how how can we ensure that we're not going to run out? like How quickly those fish reproduce? How many fish are taken out of the river or lake? right how How we make sure that this is sustainable?
00:13:20
Speaker
And I think that this is an in the forefront of everybody. you know Every mindful hunter or or angler is actually taking care of, here I say, resource, but which in itself may sound like, oh, so you have this dominionistic approach anyway. right But it it kind of is a resource or you know like a fellow earthling beings. You can take it this way as well.
00:13:44
Speaker
But the bottom line is we are part of this this mechanism. And when we go out and do something within that system, we have to care about the system and understand what's going on, um because otherwise we we you know, this is this is the problem because the system that we are in and we're enjoying it in some way. So I guess I don't know if I answer your question, but you totally did. it And you touched on one.
00:14:08
Speaker
You touched on an element that for me ah is so important. i was just worked I was just talking about this with a client who it's so funny because she sent me a message today that she's like, seriously mind, this has been maybe about a week or two since our last session.
00:14:25
Speaker
No, it's been a week since our last session. And she was like, my mind is still blown by the concept of Stone Age economics. There's this wonderful book that's really a more of like a ah large, it's not really a book. It's more like an extended research paper ah called Stone Age Economics that talks about the concept that you touched on, which is that we tend to think of in the hunter-gatherer timeframe as people who were, you know, desperate and always worried about their food source and where the food source was going to come from And and hunting was this thing that was like stressful when it's the complete opposite from the research now is finally showing that hunter gatherers were actually much more relaxed because like you said, they knew the land.
00:15:10
Speaker
They knew where every being was during the different seasons. So when they won, they could go out and hunt or gather. Right. They knew where the berries were going to be. They knew where the edible plants were going to be. They understood the relationship and their migration and their movements were not like searching, but more of in flowing with as things changed.
00:15:34
Speaker
And so what they would do is they would hunt for maybe a week and then the rest of the month, contemplation, relaxation. Way time. Way more time. Exactly. I don't remember exactly who was doing that research for the first time.
00:15:51
Speaker
um And so I'm going to be very light on facts in terms of names. Right. But there was like this guy who does this research. And then.
00:16:04
Speaker
Almost immediately, but especially 10, 20 years later, it was like viciously attacked by. you know scientists who were... Because really the thing was like, hey, actually farming is probably the worst thing we did to ourselves because it introduced like this constant chore and work and work and ah stress and everything. right and So I think that was the foundation of the attacks on these ideas. right And there was like a...
00:16:33
Speaker
one point when ah the official um or a majority view was like, oh, it was completely and comprehensively debunked. But then later on, the the actual experiments were reproduced, were tried again.
00:16:51
Speaker
Like the his research was sort of reproduced and it come back with even more like it can even more convincing results like this guy. Like, no, no, no, no. no no Even if you look at but modern hunter-gatherers like Hadza and so on.
00:17:06
Speaker
They have more time. They have there are less stressed. they than And more importantly, they also can adjust the workload to the time of the year.
00:17:18
Speaker
to the time like it's It's not like a constant chore. And even um Carl Newport writes about this in the in in his book, Slow Productivity, that what we're doing in the modern workplace, it's just craziness.
00:17:32
Speaker
Because we just... expected to like constantly turn the same product productivity levels day after day, week after week, month after month, which is crazy because the sun starts early and the days are longer and the days are shorter. That impacts us. we we We're not going to work the same. And so this expectation creates stress.
00:17:59
Speaker
And yeah, sure, maybe some aspects of safety are better now in the modern society. But our state of our mind is not better. Certainly, it's not better because we don't have time, like you said, all this mindfulness and our thinking.
00:18:16
Speaker
contemplating ideas. And I think that that is really one of the best examples of the disconnection to nature of what it's done to us.
Modern Stress and Disconnection from Nature
00:18:25
Speaker
Because, you know, sometimes people try to go to all these abstract ways of talking about, you know, what it means to be disconnected and the the lack of awe and the wonder and all this. But it really is also, like you said, that sense of safety. We as human beings have a very I think for most people, not everybody, of course, but for most people, you feel really insecure.
00:18:47
Speaker
And so much of that starts with the fact that your food comes from a supermarket, your housing, you have to have money in order to pay for it. Like there's all these different pieces. And I don't know.
00:18:57
Speaker
if the shit hits the fan, what to do. I don't know where to go. I don't know where I can go outside of my home and find food. Like, I don't know how to forage. And I think that we find, as we start to talk to people who are hunters, like you said, real hunters. Pardon me for saying that the weekend hunters are not real hunters. But I mean, people who are hunting in the way that you're talking about. like is say and I say hunting properly, like a proper hunter. Yeah, in deep connection with the land. And...
00:19:24
Speaker
The relationship, I remember I was in Kentucky a few years back with some friends of mine who have huge amounts of land in Kentucky. And we were having a big conversation with our neighbors about hunting, about the deer and how some of the kind of as as the land has been developed in different ways, there have been people who have been going against the idea of hunting in the traditional way that this people had been doing for hundreds of years living in the rural Kentucky.
00:19:52
Speaker
And they were saying how now they're having this huge influx of all this amount of deer that is destroying so many other things. It's destroying crops, it's destroying... you know, things that they're building, because of course, the hunters aren't there who ah for generations had been a part of the natural landscape, you know, similar to controlled fires in that discussion that we're having hunting done in that way, like you just said of, well, let me think, how much do I take from the, you know, when I'm, when I'm fishing, when I'm, how much do I take out in order to ensure that there's still a preponderance for all the other beings that need that fish and for there to be reproduction and all these different pieces.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I think that there's a huge sense of calm that comes over us when we know how these cycles work, when we're in relationship with these, because I am no longer, you know, beholden to some artificial system and as an extension of that, which you already mentioned, I think it naturally leads us to rethink our own cycles.
00:20:57
Speaker
Like, wait a minute, it's freezing cold outside. So ah maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this, this and this and having the heat up to like 1000 degrees, because that's not natural to my body. And therefore, I'm that's why I'm feeling so out of sync.
00:21:15
Speaker
I tell you i tell you a story about this when I realized you know how how artificial world recreated on very basic level.
Natural vs. Artificial Timekeeping
00:21:25
Speaker
I decided that I will go and shoot a time lapse of a sunrise.
00:21:32
Speaker
okay And obviously it's never going to work for the first time. because you need to figure out everything, your time and you like all those things. Right. So i was always um i think like for argument, say I don't remember exactly, probably half an hour before sunrise.
00:21:49
Speaker
Right. And I'm half an hour before sunrise. I'm setting up all those you know things on the camera and whatever. And obviously I'm shooting it and then it's crap. So I'm trying it next day. I'm half an hour before sunrise. and And the third time, it like struck me like I am in nature.
00:22:10
Speaker
I am at the exact same moment. The sun is rising from the horizon. This big thing. It's just like exact same moment.
00:22:21
Speaker
But on my watch, it's a different time. like How does that work? like We created that thing that who who gets to decide that it's like 8 ? Or like, would it like, no, like that big, massive thing and our earth like orbits it.
00:22:40
Speaker
It's, it's the same time. I can see it at the same time, same light. The birds are, you know, waking up and everything is like, And it's occurred to me, like, what is, like, how how much is this disconnected, like, artificially measured time? And we all decided, like, oh, we have to be at start work at nine o'clock. But you look at the nature, and that's not the same time at all. It's just changing all the time. it was like, oh, man.
00:23:05
Speaker
It, like, felt so unnatural to have this... hour decided but like it doesn't make sense the sun is just rising like it did like three days ago and to me like to me i felt like i'm at the exact same time in this place let my watch was telling you like no no no you're at a different time now like how come it's like three days difference you know and it was like whoa Yeah, and i I love that because i have that I have that
Embracing Natural Rhythms in Daily Life
00:23:35
Speaker
experience a lot. So I wake up really early and have a whole kind of routine that I do that's very calming and and I have the windows open. I never close my windows. It's just this weird thing.
00:23:46
Speaker
i sleep with the windows wide open in the sense of no curtains or anything. And I like to regulate myself with the sunlight. And you wouldn't sleep with windows open in Ireland, just saying.
00:23:59
Speaker
ah say But it's and it's beautiful. I have a ah gorgeous view of of a lake of a river, ah a big meadow and then a river and then a small like like small little mountains.
00:24:12
Speaker
And it's just gorgeous. But to connect into the way that the light changes and how my body naturally wakes up, um this the whole thing of an alarm clock is freaking annoying, to be honest. Like the whole thing is ah is annoying. i And I find that...
00:24:30
Speaker
the more I allow myself to just be in that connection, the more my body naturally finds its rhythm and i wake up and I go to sleep. I did this experiment once. i um I actually took a period of my life where I said I was not going to use an alarm clock at all.
00:24:46
Speaker
Luckily, I worked for myself, so I didn't have to worry about it. And I said, I want to learn my own rhythm. I want to learn the rhythm of my body. When is it that I'm productive? When is it that I'm not productive? When is it that i you know, get up? When is it that I go to sleep? And it was fascinating because what I learned about myself was I naturally would wake up somewhere between seven, eight o'clock in the morning ish, depending on the time of the season.
00:25:12
Speaker
And it was somewhere around there. And then I was really productive. I would get so much done up until I was living in Spain at the time. And so which was great because it matched me so much better.
00:25:24
Speaker
i would basically work until anywhere between two to four in the afternoon. I would drink tea. I maybe grabbed a tiny snack, but I didn't even really eat. Around two to four, i would eat and I would have my like main meal.
00:25:38
Speaker
a nice big meal. And then I was useless. I would try to go back to work, but I couldn't. I would take a nap. I did siesta, siesta, and I get along very, very well. I did siesta.
00:25:49
Speaker
I would maybe watch TV. I would relax. If I was home, like I wasn't going out or I didn't have friends or whatever, I would naturally pick up work again around 9 p.m. to 10 p.m.
00:26:01
Speaker
And I would work until about three to four in the morning, somewhere around that time, three, four, sometimes even five. And that's when I would go to sleep. And that cycle, of nap in the afternoon, but like really just allowing myself became, i was so productive because I was working in harmony with, you know, even though I was in a city, but I had, again, windows open that I always left open. And so I had this light that was coming through and and I could...
00:26:32
Speaker
I started to take walks and take the afternoon off. And it was fascinating to me that that is and that still remains. I am the most productive from the moment that I wake up to the moment that I kind of take a break. And when I take a break and I eat, i am useless, useless.
00:26:50
Speaker
and I think there's a there's a good body of of peer-reviewed neuroscience that would that would exactly um tie this, what you're describing, into our hormonal rhythms and ah natural ah fluctuation in the body temperature and and and stuff like that.
00:27:07
Speaker
So it's, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah you know, like ah ah being being put into this nine to five, kind of like it's like a direct violation of what what our body wants to do.
00:27:20
Speaker
And, yeah you know, but I think there is another thing, another side of that, of that that those who are in the in the in any sort of like a leadership position in the companies and and so on, they need to be aware of those things as well and adjust accordingly.
00:27:38
Speaker
not only to those things, but also to individual predisposition of their people. that they're you know And I think that this this is another thing which I would tie into just simple understanding and observation, like you say, like observing.
00:27:58
Speaker
what is what is going on and like you observing what is going on in the land, you can the same way observe not only, you know, your hares and your foxes and whatever, your deer, but also people. Right. And even though people are in a different environment, you also in ah observing them and you learn about them. And I think this is a very important point. just Listen to your body first, to yourself first, but also listen and observe those around you.
00:28:26
Speaker
And that is the way of making life much better, both for you and those around you. Let's take a quick break so that I can share with you one of our ego-conscious business partners. The first time i connected with a plant and actually received a response, i got chills.
00:28:42
Speaker
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00:29:01
Speaker
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00:29:18
Speaker
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00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, that's exactly why I talk so much about this whole like inner plantness. And to me, your animal really tapping into your animalness is about reconnecting back to your instincts, connecting back to your movements, to how your actions affect not just yourself, but others.
00:29:47
Speaker
And your plantness is exactly that, that observation, that that presence, that awareness of what's going on around me. And we need both sides, right? We need to be able to be very aware of our body and of our our way that we affect things with our movement and with our actions and the way that we react to things.
00:30:08
Speaker
And this is a really important part, tuning in to that instinctual nature that we have. And at the same time, That observation, that silence, that being in presence and being present is so important. And when we think about businesses and we think about that nature inspired approach, I completely agree that that's a big part of it.
00:30:31
Speaker
your Your cultural shift, we endowment her in our in our nucleus, our shared houses where we lived. where we live, we talk a lot about the idea that this entity of Nucleo gets created, right? This sort of spiritual energetic entity that is created based on the characteristics of everybody that lives together and of the house itself.
00:30:51
Speaker
It's almost like this ever growing, ever evolving entity. And I think that that's exactly what you're talking about in your business. It's like you also have an entity that gets created based on the the harmonization, the resonance between all the people that are there. And that's a natural rhythm in and of itself. And that might change as More employees, some employees come in, some employees, because it's not saying, you know, okay, we know mornings are in general more productive, but for some people, it's going to be really early for some people, it's going to be later in the morning.
00:31:22
Speaker
And so you have to find that sweet spot. And the sweet spot is not based on on artificial time. And it's not based on just arbitrarily saying, this is it. This is that disciplined approach, that dominion approach that you you were talking about earlier of, I dominate and therefore I set it and I say it's supposed to be that way.
00:31:40
Speaker
But if we were really looking at from from a business perspective or from any kind of group activity perspective, what we're looking for is that sweet spot. We're looking to attune ourselves to the land. And in this case, the landscape is the actual office environment or what it is that we're trying to do and to tune into that, to find that.
00:32:03
Speaker
Is it hard sometimes? Absolutely. I mean, when you've got a school, for example, of children and you're trying to find the time, you know, you say, get everybody get in by 7 a.m. in the morning, but also then recognize that if you do start certain activities at seven o'clock in the morning, don't bitch at the kids when they can't do it.
00:32:22
Speaker
Like rethink when you do certain things. Sure, everybody has to get there in order to have a kind of general cohesion, but we need to start adapting and we need to start tuning in. And that's why I go back to people who are deeply connected to the land that they live in.
00:32:40
Speaker
like you're talking about, you know, relating to hunters and anglers and foragers and stuff, I think it becomes, it's almost like this this exercise of your body that you're a muscle of attunement that becomes much more refined and you start to be able to see those small nuances, hence why trackers are so good at being able to take the smallest disturbance and understand that and applying those skills into businesses and group environments, I think can be just so powerful to help us reconnect back to the way our bodies naturally move and observe and explore things.
00:33:21
Speaker
I just want to add one thing to this, that ah people who are listening to that and and that if that resonates, it's not something that you're going to do overnight.
00:33:31
Speaker
it's just it just It's just like a small steps. because you know and And again, I think that we all agree that the odds are stacked against us in terms of how everything is organized.
00:33:45
Speaker
And I don't think that the the answer is like some you know opposition and and revolution. It's more like ah taking step back and learn to live within the the constraints, right? Because at the end of the day, you want and you still depend on certain, for example, services that are provided to you that you, you know, and some someone has to do those things.
00:34:07
Speaker
But you know like you start if you start with yourself and you start with you know just just thinking about like how am I really feeling right now? you know like What is what i really feel? And you start you know even like ah like a meditation or something, you realize like what absolute garbage is like ah like a in in your brain, in your head, all the thoughts, everything. like It's just like, where what are all those things doing there?
00:34:33
Speaker
and you know And the same thing is like, when When you're waking up, like what I do, like when I wake up, the first thing I do, I do like a self-check. Sometimes I didn't didn't even open my eyes, but I'm just like, how am I feeling?
00:34:45
Speaker
Right? Am I, did I s sleep well? Like, how's my stomach? like Like, how was my food last night? Like, how was my food previous day? I can feel like, but it's not like I have like some, you know, great skills.
00:34:58
Speaker
It was something that was, you know, like initially it's like, I feel nothing. But over time, as you start observing that, after six months, four months, six months, it's becoming like so apparently obvious to you. Like, oh, you know what? That chili that I ate last night, it it wasn't good for me.
00:35:16
Speaker
um my My body speaks to me that but like it wasn't good. and youre And you learn those things, you know? And I think that, for example, people who are, this is like a very devious because people who like like their health, right? And their' but they're like minded for fitness and sport and whatever.
00:35:33
Speaker
They all have like a watches and trackers and heart rates and all those things. And like to me, like, and and I'm ah like one of those guys, right? It's like, I still have it here, but it's not on my not on my wrist anymore, right?
00:35:44
Speaker
And like that actually takes away from a lot of this, like the the old coaches and the old old athletes, like they have this rate of perceived exertion.
00:35:57
Speaker
which was the most important factor for the rate of perceived exertion, not your heart rate, not your FTP, not what your watch is telling you, like how do you feel about your activity? And so and that was very and that was very powerful. I think we start to see like a comeback to this. You know, like I saw I saw this this this meme like there's a one runner.
00:36:19
Speaker
like a you know proper runner with a watch, whatever. And the other guy in the t-shirt and you know the ponytail, hand in his pocket, and he goes to the runner like, how was your run? And the guy looks at the watch and goes like, my pace was such and such, and my heart rate was this, and my maximum heart rate was that, and whatever, right?
00:36:37
Speaker
And the guy in the in pocket like, was it fun? And the guy looks at him, looks at the watch, it doesn't say.
00:36:46
Speaker
And that's it, right? we We look to external factors because we're so disconnected from ourselves, right? So disconnected from our true nature, so so disconnected. So we have to have something that tells us that's that's what's going on. I remember i I threw out my scale years ago and I realized it was like, if I want to under, because I have body dysmorphia. And so I'm like, if I want to revolutionize and evolve this body dysmorphia in a different way, I need to get in touch with my body.
00:37:14
Speaker
And I need to understand, you know, when does my body hold a little more? When must my body move? When am I sitting too long? Not because some counter tells me so, but because but because I know that that's what's my my body. And when do I need to do, i don't know, ah an aerobic routine versus when do I need to stretch into it? And you can't do any of that, like you said, unless you sit down.
00:37:42
Speaker
And really listen. And that's why that contemplation we were talking about hunter gather cultures was so also important, because in order for them to learn and know that land, they had to take that time to just be in it to just sit there to observe, to observe yourself to know how your body reacts to this.
00:38:02
Speaker
You don't train to fall to run after a gazelle by just running. It's more than that. you have to have you know You have to be able to tune in to where the gazelle is going to run to because you can't outrun some of these animals. you know That doesn't happen. i think you're going to look at the gazelle first and just you're going to run after one that is a little lame.
00:38:22
Speaker
Exactly. Like that was not going to go so fast. I can see that there's an injury in that leg. Exactly. I'm not going to go after that. Exactly. And so, but I think that all of this, and I'm glad that you mentioned the whole point of it's a slow process. I cannot emphasize. It is a process that requires you ah to observe. It requires rest.
00:38:44
Speaker
It requires for you to do something and try it and then to give yourself time to feel what happens and and And I love how you were saying that your body, you start to become in tune with your body. I always say that, you know, the the whole premise of of being able to feel how food reacts to you. Stop looking at somebody else telling you carbs, no carbs, this, that, or the other. None of that stuff matters.
00:39:09
Speaker
Right. What matters is how does your body digest? Some people are naturally going to be more vegetarian. Some people are naturally going to be more carnivorous. Sometimes in different seasons of the year, you're going to be like that. So much of that is tied also to your relationship with the land that you have and how you digest what's coming in and from around that.
00:39:28
Speaker
And we spend way too much time like trying to disconnect from our bodies. I had somebody who once looked- You tell me what I'm supposed to eat.
00:39:38
Speaker
Exactly. What time? Like you tell me. I don't want to think about it. I just tell me what I think. ah you know like i'm so And the same goes you know like the same goes for for like a medical care. i always said like i'm i am my best doctor Right. Like, like I, you know, like there are, they have like a, you know, they can, they know the medications if I need or whatever, but that's up to me to go and say like, this is what's going on.
00:40:06
Speaker
This is what's happening because they're like, just like, so it's it's like every aspect of it. It's just life. It's just life. I think that's a summary of like, it's just life. Just pay attention.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah, and and that's it. And the more you're out there, and this is, I think, where it is important for you to spend time in nature. Now, that doesn't mean for all of us we can't go. there was a huge There was a wonderful study called The Nature of Americans. It was a study that was done with over 2,000 Americans were interviewed, and they did all kinds of different aspects to understand nature.
00:40:39
Speaker
the relationship that Americans have to nature and also to conservation and all these different things. And what I found fascinating was that one of the big things that came up is that for adults, nature is out there.
00:40:53
Speaker
In other words, it's something that I have to pack the car and I have to go out and I have to make it an outing and make it a day. And there's this like whole thing where instead for children,
00:41:06
Speaker
Nature is whatever I see around me like, oh, look, something's growing out of the sidewalk. And oh, my goodness, I'm going to go sit on the grass. And wow, look at this tree growing here. I'm going to go like climb off the tree or the house plant. I feel like it grew like nature is not this faraway park or something. Nature is like all these little elements and even how incredible things.
00:41:34
Speaker
Learning how your own grass grows. Okay, you shouldn't plant grass. But if you have grass, you know, if you have it, see, see how the plants grow or even your house plants. Like, you know, I live with a lot of different house plants, even though I have these beautiful wilderness outside.
00:41:51
Speaker
And I love seeing how the minute new changes because I can feel. how I'm changing in reference to how they're changing. So I think even when you're talking about hunting, it's not about the I'm going out. Yes, sure. Some are going to go out there and go hunting. But it's also like, how do I get to know the area around me, the nature that is around me so that it feels more like I'm coming into home?
00:42:16
Speaker
Yeah. ah Look, this is like like everything. This is like very complex and multilayered thing to talk about. You know, like what you mentioned about this disconnection of nature. Like but this is something that we we talked about in episode about novel ecosystems that we kind of like ah disconnected ourselves from nature. And like you said, like I'm going, we going to nature. Yeah.
00:42:38
Speaker
Like nature, like we created this fence, right? And then nature is stuff behind the fence. And on that side of the fence is like where we have our safety and stuff like, and then from this goes like, oh, because that's dangerous out there.
00:42:54
Speaker
Right. So that's the other piece. Right. But this is, this has like a very, deeply rooted reasons ah for this state in our culture and how we developed as a humanity and how we do you know like do do all those things. So it's it's not necessarily all all bad and all wrong. It is, again, like understand like where did that come from.
00:43:18
Speaker
Right. And, and, and once you understand this, then that's the first step to then take a next step. And, you know, like, okay, like you said, like notice, like, okay, let's notice nature around me, like in the, even in the city, right. There's like these plants on the sidewalk. And I'm like, Oh, right right. And, and we have, there, are there are a number of studies that show that when you have like overgrown spaces, like a lot in a city environment that has been overgrown and taken over by weeds, just because it's been abandoned.
00:43:49
Speaker
When people have that near their home, they're um there their self- self-registered depression levels go down by like,
00:44:00
Speaker
30 or 40%. It's incredible to see it. But I can tell you one origin of this type of disconnection. So I study under um a fantastic teacher and researcher, Dr. Stephen Pope, who works on mystical Hebrew.
00:44:17
Speaker
ah Being a Kabbalist, he he kind of goes to the core of it. And he talks about, I had him first come because we were ah doing, we're doing inside of the naturally conscious community, this entire research into the garden of Eden story and kind of like looking at it through a plant lens because you have, you know, the, the, the tree of life as well as the tree of duality or the tree of conscious.
00:44:39
Speaker
And he was saying one of the biggest, there's a lot of them in it, but one of the biggest mistranslations in the whole Garden of Eden story is the idea that the garden is a walled off space.
00:44:52
Speaker
He's like, it was never intended to be this closed garden garden in the sense of how we look at it today, which is a garden is this thing like you said that has a fence or this thing where I work in. He says the the garden was everything.
00:45:07
Speaker
Like everything is the garden. And so the Garden of Eden was literally the space in which we lived, period. And that mistranslation has created this idea.
00:45:19
Speaker
So the whole idea of expunging Eve from the garden, like kicking out Adam and Eve from the garden, isn't a physical thing of there's this close because people ask like, where is Eden?
00:45:32
Speaker
It's like Eden is not a place. Eden was a state of consciousness that we had state that was experienced. And so when they were expunged from the garden, it was a state, a shift in the consciousness that created the separation, not a location.
00:45:50
Speaker
So yes, do you have to be cautious? Yes. Are there things that, you know, you have to, be able to keep an eye out for because, you know, there are dangers that happen, but there's dangers that happen everywhere.
00:46:03
Speaker
And so you always have to be aware of the danger. car can hit you. A car can hit you. You can slip in the shower. i mean, anything can happen. True. Like anything.
00:46:14
Speaker
And so therefore, the whole thing of awareness, if I'm aware and I know my land, I know where my dangers are. I know where I'm most likely to understand. I don't have to stay out of something.
00:46:25
Speaker
I have to know when i can go into it. It's kind of subtle shift. Exactly. exactly no no i totally i totally and By the way, this is this is stuff that I i really like. you know like that you mentioned mistranslations, like you know like when something is translated from from one language that maybe is not used anymore to another, then to another, then to another.
00:46:47
Speaker
And then even within the language, you have a different interpretation of what you're saying. Like even if you have a discussion on social media, it's usually like someone says something and then someone else is takes that statement and changes the understanding or definition of one word and goes like, oh, so you mean like...
00:47:07
Speaker
And it, right. So if you stretch that across like a thousands of years and different, like it's like completely like what did they even mean? Exactly. like you You just essentially making up your own story, whatever fits your your needs versus the what was originally said. Like this is, ah yeah, this I like this stuff. I don't know much about it, but I like this in on a level like this is fun.
00:47:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's been fascinating because with him, we were again, we we took this Garden of Eden story and we said, Okay, let's look at it as because because all you talk about is these two trees, you're like, where are the rest of the plants?
00:47:44
Speaker
And ah one of my other professors, Stefano Mancuso, who's like this, you know, a big professor in the world of plant intelligence and plant neurobiology, he always talks about how flawed the story of Noah's Ark is because he's like, ah where are the plants?
00:47:59
Speaker
And he's like, the whole, yeah either you think of it as somebody screwed up and forgot about the plants, or you think of it as look how resilient the plants are that nobody had to worry about them. You had to worry about saving the animals, but you didn't have to worry about saving the plants because we knew that they would come back and like deal with everything after the flood.
00:48:17
Speaker
And it's just when you start to get into all of these stories and you dissect them through, like you said, the lens, there's another Fantastic book. That's where the Bible comes from. It's a beautiful book. It was written a long time ago, but it goes through so many of these translations and how the translations were commissioned by certain popes and certain things so that they have a very specific view. ah That's a whole other topic that is another podcast. But all of this is like you said, it's dominion, it's separation, it's all of these are layers of control. Because again, the more the human feels ah insecure, the more the human tries to control. So it's almost like this self perpetuating, you know, fallacy of,
00:49:02
Speaker
And this this myth that we keep kind of feeding into, which is nature is scary. So stay away from it. But the fact that I'm away from nature means that I feel insecure. ah which that means I need to control nature.
00:49:15
Speaker
But the controlling of nature is what makes me feel disconnected from it. It's like this super circle that we keep going back and forth into. Yeah, like ah like the idea of controlling nature is is such ridiculous thing. you know like i ah I would recommend the book called Wildlife in the Balance. And I recorded an episode with the with the author of the book, ah Wildlife in the Balance. I think the title of episode is the same, Wildlife in the Balance.
00:49:45
Speaker
Simon Musto is the name. And he just, it's a wonderful book about... Essentially, it it connects nature and biology and ecology to the physical processes, to the second law thermodynamics, to entropy and you know balance of energy on the planet and so on.
00:50:07
Speaker
And it's a wonderful book because it real makes you realize that the powers at play are so ridiculously powerful. that humans talking about controlling nature or like this is just this is just like it's stupid it's fun it's funny like a little kid like the what do you want to control i mean like the whole thing governs is governed by second law of time thermodynamic and the entropy and all those things. and and And the animals are, you know, they are able to move a little bit entropy back, but not really because they taking energy from the environment as well to do that right on a very basic level.
00:50:48
Speaker
So then like someone rolls in, it's like, oh, we're going to like, no, you won't. you No, you won't. Exactly. It's like, stop it. Just stop it. That's just dumb. But that's exactly how we are. You know, that's that's our thing. It's funny because in it, we started to. So since we have adopted kind of Robin Wall Kimmerer's suggestion to use plant pronouns, right, or pronouns for nature.
00:51:11
Speaker
of key and kin instead of it to get away from the it. We had this big discussion inside the naturally conscious community around the word kingdom, right? You know, the plant kingdom, the human kingdom. And and I know it's like minxy words, but it it does start to shift the way you think.
00:51:26
Speaker
So we use kin home, like, you know, the home, their home kin home, because the whole once getting into the whole world of Dom and dominion, and sure, there are beautiful ways of stewardship that come into it, but it's still so much of it for so many people is about control.
00:51:44
Speaker
And I think that yeah yeah yeah going into the conversation of why like recognizing plant intelligence is so difficult is because it means we have to relinquish control that I can do whatever the hell I want over these beings.
00:51:57
Speaker
And so it's always kind of goes back to the end of control and The more we try to control something, the worse it gets. And so therefore, even in our own lives, if you're feeling insecure, you don't cure that insecurity by trying to control something.
00:52:15
Speaker
you You cure that insecurity by learning about that thing, by by becoming in in relation with that thing, by having a different kind of relationship.
00:52:26
Speaker
That's how you really cure it, by by getting to know it and being aware. Yeah, and it's a funny thing that you mentioned that, you know, not referring to to plants or animals as it. And I was, you know, because there's like this specific, we we talk about languages and the changes in like how things change when you translate from language to language.
00:52:44
Speaker
I was ah talking with the lady from Estonia and and she's ah she's a leader of a so Estonia National Animal Group, which by the way, this wolf. um and ah And she said like when she was learning English, she could because in in Estonia, they have, like you said, they're using like a pronouns for animals.
00:53:05
Speaker
And she couldn't understand like that how how animal is it. like it's Yeah, exactly. Because they have because they have this, it like even some stones and whatever have like like a living thing. So they they describe different things that are living and there's things that are not living, like stone or you know cup or something.
00:53:23
Speaker
And she's like, how is this it? She could go, this language is like strange. It is strange. But it again speaks to like, we see everything through through through the lens of where how we were brought up and that what we were you know taught to understand things. right and like And even think like a language that you use. like if you're If you grew up in Estonia,
00:53:50
Speaker
and you're using like Estonian language that treats those things differently, then naturally your view on the life, on on life on on animals, on everything is different through the lens of your language. right That speaks to the importance of diversity. that if you have even like ah in a Even in the engineering team, if you have a people whose native language is different,
00:54:16
Speaker
They think about the problem differently because they think about that problem in their own language. And those little differences make them think different. absolutely And it it really does make a difference that sometimes someone who is like, I don't know, Bulgarian can figure out the problem quicker than someone who is British.
00:54:36
Speaker
Not because he's smarter, but because he's like... has tool set that allowed him to look at the problem, like tiny, like a set of different angles. Like, Oh, how are we going to do this?
00:54:49
Speaker
Oh, you're right. It works. That is an episode and of itself, because this is a topic inside of the naturally conscious community. We talk about this all the time, especially because we have lots of different native speakers and, you know, and also we're trying to learn plant speak, right? How is it that plants communicate and how they speak? And,
00:55:09
Speaker
Stepping into that plant communication, the same as animal communication and so many other forms of communication, of non-human communication, takes us out of that mentality. That's exactly what it does. It helps us reprogram and expand our our ways of defining logic because every language has their thing their way of saying, this is logical.
00:55:31
Speaker
This goes after this, this goes into this. If you learn German, right, the verb is all the way at the end of the sentence. It's such a different way of processing something when you have like the first verb at the beginning, but all the other verbs are all the way at the end. And you're like, wait a minute, where's the action?
00:55:48
Speaker
And that tells you a little bit about the culture of how the action works. So imagine when you start to communicate in a way a plant does or in a way, you know, a horse does, or in a way somebody, ah you know, some other kind of being, it takes us into different ways of experiencing. And the more we have that, the better it is, because we're more flexible, we we enter into that plasticity into that ability for us to shift and more.
00:56:11
Speaker
All right, I'm going to stop us here, because we're going to go off on another. ten Yeah, yeah. I know. i know We can like, like, like spawn like a six different episodes. i Exactly. and I have to say that. And we didn't even say anything about the native versus non-native. Which is what we were going to talk about, but I think it was much better. I think where we ended up was so, so much better. So I am loving this conversation. i am so grateful for everything that we just talked about and for the fact that we got to, we actually recorded it. Yay for hitting the record button.
00:56:41
Speaker
And I'm super excited about this. Where do people find out more about, ah wait, you changed the name of the podcast. So you have to say the new name of the podcast. I was going to use the old one, but I won't say it. Which me the new one.
00:56:52
Speaker
Conservation and science. Yeah. So you just made it super easy. Conservation and science. Yeah. I always say like, how do you find me? Like on this very like very app and very place you're listening to this podcast right now, just go in there and search for conservation and science once you finish looking to this.
00:57:07
Speaker
thats like I like it. I like it. That's super easy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for this. This has been fantastic. And for all of you that are listening, I hope you enjoyed everything that we talked about and links to also his podcast so you can search for it even within the show notes themselves.
00:57:26
Speaker
We'll give them to you. Plus, if you want to continue conversations like this, you know where to go, which is the naturally conscious community. This is the space. for us to talk about the change in vocabulary, the reconnection with the plant world, and to all of these different small nuances and to have you a safe space where you can slowly make these changes and integrate them into your body.
00:57:50
Speaker
And of course, if any of this subject matter, you know, resonates with you, you go check out Tommy and also come and check out all the work that I'm doing. And if you'd like to bring this deeper into your life, I'd love to talk to you about one-on-one, know, mentorship and coaching.
00:58:04
Speaker
So if you're craving deeper support, know that there is an ecosystem filled here for you to support you through this process. But that's pretty much it for this episode. Remember to resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.
00:58:21
Speaker
We're out of here. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. To continue these conversations, join us in the Naturally Conscious Community, your premier online ecosystem for plant reawakening and accelerated evolution and co-creation with other kin.
00:58:38
Speaker
Here you'll find expansive discussions, interactive courses, live events, and supportive group programs like the Plant Wisdom Book Club and the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Group. Connect with like-minded individuals collaborating with plants to integrate these insights into life.
00:58:53
Speaker
Intro and outro music by Steve Shuley and Poinsettia from The Singing Life of Plants. That's it for me, Tigreya Gardenia, and my plant collaborators. Until next time, remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance.
00:59:07
Speaker
I'm out. Bye!